Russell Fuller on Amillennialism

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They were, you know, without God and without hope in the world, as Paul would describe. But with the

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New Testament, and with the establishment of the kingdom of God, and God sending out the missionaries and so forth,

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Satan is bound, now the gospel is going through all the nations. And so now the kingdom of God is being expanded to a worldwide thing, not just located in Israel, but now located in all the nations of the earth.

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And so this is the great kingdom of God that I think that is being described throughout.

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And so I think Satan is bound, now obviously not in a complete sense, but in a sense that now the gospel is conquering into his territory.

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Welcome to the Conversations That Matter podcast. I'm your host, John Harris. As you know, we are doing a mini series, if you will, on surveying some eschatological positions in the

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Christian tradition. And we did premillennial dispensationalism yesterday. And today

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I want to do amillennialism. And I will say this up front, in my experience, okay, which of course is limited to my experience, but in my experience on a political level,

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I seem to have been getting along with amillennialists pretty well. And I think maybe it's because there is a certain kind of rigidity that can pop up sometimes in postmillennial camps and dispensational premillennial camps that I don't see with the amillennialists.

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Maybe we can get into that a little bit. I myself have never held to amillennial convictions, but I am curious about understanding them more and maybe why they're so chill, or at least the ones

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I've met. Maybe Dr. Fuller will disagree, but that is the guess we have to represent the amillennial position so that we can gain an understanding.

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Dr. Russell Fuller has been on the podcast many times before. He's taught Hebrew for years.

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He's pretty much the go -to person on Hebrew. You can actually learn from him theology, Hebrew.

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I don't know what else you're teaching. What are you teaching right now? This coming semester, we're going to do, of course, an advanced

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Hebrew and advanced Greek class. And then I'm going to teach the book of Romans, the first part of the book of Romans, but you don't need

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Greek for that at all. And then I'm going to do a class on the Christian life, and we're going to do it through going through Pilgrim's Progress.

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And basically, you know, how do we live our Christian life? Most of theology classes, we focus on the question of what do we believe about God?

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But I don't think we focus enough on, you know, how do we perform our duty to God in obeying his word and in walking in his ways?

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And so using Pilgrim's Progress, we're going to go through and talk about the Christian life and how to better walk in the ways of the

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Lord. Man, I love that idea. I am so tempted to sign up right now, and I may honestly do that.

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So if you're listening and you want to be in a class with me, I'm just on a spur of the moment. I'm actually thinking about that.

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That's such an interesting idea to have a class using Pilgrim's Progress. I know it's not the

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Bible, but it's so—isn't it the second most published Christian book?

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That is correct. Other than the Bible? That's right. And what we're going to do is as we go through Pilgrim's Progress, we're going to look at the scripture that's sort of where he's coming from.

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And so we definitely want to make it still biblically based, but yet the way he describes things, it goes right in line with scripture.

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That's what he's doing. He's really following scripture. And so we'll pull out the scripture that goes with it and talk about that as well.

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Have you ever—this is random. Have you ever been to Bugaboo Creek Steakhouse? Are you familiar with that restaurant at all? No, I've never been there.

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Oh, never? Okay, it's not going to be as funny to you, but there's a restaurant called Bugaboo Creek. I think it's more in the north. And I haven't seen them as much lately, but when

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I was a kid, there used to be—there's a chain that used to be around. But they had this appetizer called the bunion onion.

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Oh, yeah. You know? And my family's so Christian, I thought it was John Bunion.

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I thought this was—this is the John Bunion onion here. Anyway, not funny,

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I guess, if you've never been to Bugaboo. But I would—yeah, I would love that. So anyway, you can go to RussellTFuller .com

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and sign up there for your theology classroom. And I've only heard good things about this from the people who have taken your courses, so I would encourage people to do that.

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Maybe let's switch gears. Let's talk about this amillennial thing. This amillennial thing. This ecological view.

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This trend. No, this view that's been around for a while. I want to, as we do this, maybe focus on objections as we go through so we can survey it.

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But I want to also give you pushback, friendly pushback from critics, right?

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And so I think actually maybe the way to delve into this, if you think it's appropriate, is to start with actually a criticism, which is that—I know you hear dispensationalism is more novel and new, but actually

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I've heard dispensational premillennialists try to make the case, well, you have Kiliasm, you see, in the old—right?

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In the early church. And they find some inspirations from Kiliasm because they'll say, you know, whether it's historic premill or dispensational premill, it's premill.

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But you don't find amillennialism, they'll say, until Augustine. It's later, so therefore it's more innovative based on these platonic readings of scripture.

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So maybe we could start with the origins here. Where did it start? Yeah, amillennialism, the first person that really describes it in detail is

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Augustine. Okay, so you're looking at around 400 A .D. for Augustine.

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And so he's the first one to go into details of his view. His view has been—it's not exactly the amillennialism of Augustine, but it's very close.

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And so he's usually considered the father of it. But if you look at earlier church fathers, they will—there's one, it might have been

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Justin Martyr, but I may have the wrong church father, but he mentions that he holds to really premillennialism.

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But he says there's other good Christians who disagree with this and who hold another view, and he's probably describing the amillennial view.

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And so amillennialism does precede Augustine.

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I doubt he's the first one to see it. And so there was others who said they did not see a millennial before Augustine, but yet—

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A literal millennium. A literal millennial, that's correct. But yet that view clearly predates

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Augustine. Now how far back it goes, whether it's as old as premillennialism,

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I don't know. Now, you know, obviously I'm a nonmillennialist. I say, you know,

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John's a nonmillennialist. Right, right, right. Of course, of course. But, you know, come on.

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So I don't know exactly how far back it goes, but let's just put it this way. Premillennialism has a long historical record to it.

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There's no question about it. And, John, just let me say, yes, I'm a nonmillennialist. Now, when

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I was saved back in 1975, and as I was learning about the faith,

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I was a premillennial dispensationalist. That's what I was. But over time, I've switched over to amillennialism.

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But I will tell you, is it possible that premillennialism is correct?

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And I would tell you, yes. It's the, you know, when we talk about things to come,

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I'm dogmatic on a few issues on this. One, there's going to be a literal second coming return of Christ.

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Two, there's going to be judgment. Okay, a judgment. Three, there's a real heaven.

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There's a real hell. Okay? And, you know, so new heavens and new earth.

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Those things I think we can be pretty dogmatic about. And I could add a few more smaller details, but they're just the small details.

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When it comes to millennialism, is premillennialism very possible in my mind?

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Oh, yes. Very much so. But let me just tell you how

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I became a nonmillennialist real quick. You know, my training was really more in Old Testament.

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And so as I'm reading the Old Testament, of course, it's looking forward. And what it's looking forward to is the messianic age.

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And it's looking forward to a kingdom of heaven, especially if you look at Daniel 2, when

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Nebuchadnezzar has the dream and it goes through the different kings. And, of course, the last kings are the Roman kings.

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And in the days of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom, which will never be destroyed. Now, what is that kingdom of heaven?

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Well, when you come to the New Testament, John the Baptist, the first words we have recorded of him, repent, the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

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He's describing that kingdom of heaven in Daniel 2. And then when Christ comes, he says the same thing.

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Repent, the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Now, the kingdom that they're, again, as they're describing, is what

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I believe is the messianic kingdom. Okay, the kingdom of heaven. This is the kingdom that I think the

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Old Testament is looking forward to. It has a kingdom and it has a king, the king being the

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Messiah, the kingdom being a messianic kingdom. And so when you look in the Old Testament, let me just give you an example.

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Like, for instance, in Isaiah 35, if you look at that, the language looks almost like new heavens and new earth.

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You know, it talks about nature rejoicing. It sort of personifies nature.

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You know, they're clapping their hands in joy. They're shouting. The mountains are shouting for joy.

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And then it says, you know, then the lame will walk and the blind will see, and it keeps going.

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And then when you look at the New Testament, and this is the key to me. When the New Testament views that, they view it as fulfilled in the ministry of Christ and in the messianic age.

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And so as I look at the Old Testament, I don't think it's looking forward to a literal millennia.

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In other words, there's a messianic age that we live in now. Then there's the millennial.

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Then there's a new heavens and new earth. And then again, when you come to the New Testament, that kingdom of heaven is the rule of God.

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That's what we mean by kingdom of heaven, of course. And it's the rule of God in the hearts of men.

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But yet the physical manifestation of that kingdom of God, you know, Jesus says the kingdom of God is at hand.

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Well, I believe that that kingdom is established at Pentecost in its physical form.

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And therefore we have what we call the invisible church. That's the true church.

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We also have a visible church. And that's made up of both, you know, true believers, but some unbelievers as well, you know, in the visible church.

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And so I think that's the physical manifestation of the kingdom of God. And so I think the

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Old Testament is looking forward to this messianic age in which we live today, going from the first coming all the way to the second coming.

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That's that great messianic age that we're looking at. And so when you look at the famous passage in Revelation 20, okay, and that is, if you look, if you think of the book of Revelation, the book of Revelation is a lot of types and symbols.

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And so I think there's a lot of figurative language being used there. When you look at when Jesus talks about his second coming in Matthew 24, 25,

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Mark 13, Luke 21, when you look at those chapters of the Olivet discourse, he describes a second coming.

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Then he talks about judgment. He doesn't talk about a millennium. And you never really see in Paul's writings, in my opinion, any mention of a millennium.

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It's not until you get at the end of the book of Revelation, which again is a book that has many symbols, you know, sevens and 144 ,000.

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I see these things as more, a lot of these things as symbolic. And then when it comes to the thousand year reign, it describes how

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Satan will be bound that he will no longer deceive the nations.

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So how I understand that is during Old Testament times, you know, salvation was of the

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Jews. And that's where the light of God was. It was with the Jewish people. The other nations, they were blinded.

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They were, you know, without God and without hope in the world, as Paul would describe. But with the

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New Testament and with the establishment of the kingdom of God and God sending out the missionaries and so forth,

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Satan is bound, now the gospel is going through all the nations. And so now the kingdom of God is being expanded to a worldwide thing, not just located in Israel, but now located in all the nations of the earth.

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And so this is the great kingdom of God that I think that is being described throughout.

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And so I think Satan is bound now, obviously not in a complete sense, but in a sense that now the gospel is conquering into his territory, the nations of the earth.

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He's the prince and power of the air. Now the gospel is penetrating and Christ bound the strong man, spoiling his goods.

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Or as he would say, remember when he sent out his disciples and they come back to him, he goes, hey,

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I saw Satan fall from heaven. He's seeing again the establishment of the kingdom of God.

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And so I think the kingdom of God is now. I think I don't like the word millennialism.

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OK, because what I see is that the kingdom of God that was being described in the Old Testament in Daniel chapter two is in effect now

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Jesus announced it. It's it's near. That's what it means by, you know, and now with the coming of Pentecost and so forth, the kingdom of God is in our midst and we live under the kingdom of God.

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He is in heaven. All authority has been given to him in heaven and earth. And he governs the universe and he will rule till he puts all nations under his feet.

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Now is the way that's described. And for instance, first Corinthians 15. And then as I look again at the predictions of the

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Old Testament and how they're fulfilled in the new, it's not looking forward to a millennial period.

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It's fulfilled in the church age, maybe not completely, maybe not entirely.

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Some of those things may. In other words, there are some prophecies. Let me give you, for instance, in.

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John, chapter 19, they look on him whom they have pierced coming out of Zechariah.

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There's a fulfillment there. But yet when you go to Revelation, chapter one, the same verse is quoted again.

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So what that tells me is that John 19 does not exhaust that prophecy.

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OK, that prophecy will be fulfilled at the end of time as well. When they'll look on him whom they have pierced when he returns a second time.

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And then, like it says in the book of Zechariah, they will mourn for him as an only begotten child.

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So it's for these reasons, basically, that I'm a millennialist. But again,

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I tread on this pretty lightly. I do recognize premillennialism is very, very possible and it could be.

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We'll have to wait and see for sure. I'm a little less confident about dispensationalism, though there's parts of dispensationalism

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I would probably agree with. But no, I'm a covenant theology guy.

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I really like the notion of covenant theology, especially broke up in covenant of works, covenant of grace.

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And so we have one covenant and God has decided to save us through covenant.

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We become in a covenant relationship with him. After the fall, works is no longer possible for us.

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We're still justified by works, though, John. It's just the works of Jesus Christ, not my works.

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It's the works of Christ that justifies us. And so now it's all under grace, whether you're in the

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Old Testament or the New Testament. Though the way God administers the covenant of grace under the

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Old Testament was different from the new. But yet, at the same time, they were just looking forward to Messiah for their justification.

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We're looking back on Messiah for our justification. So anyway, that's why

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I'm a Millennialist. Now, there's a lot of verses you could point to and say, what do you do with that? And I'm going to go, it may go that way.

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I'm not, you know. Well, that's a great summary. That's a great survey of I thought that was actually one of the best surveys

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I've heard of what Millennialists in a nutshell believe. And there's so many questions obviously popping up in my head that you just referenced.

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But there's something that actually intrigues me. This is my personal thing, because some guys really get off track on numerology.

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And I think that's probably more often in dispensational camps. And I don't think that should be blamed on dispensationalism, per se.

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It's just when you're looking all the time for what's going to take place in the

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Middle East. And I suppose this wouldn't be unique to dispensationalism. This would just be premillennialism. But when you're looking about what are the next steps and you're trying to read the tea leaves, as it were, maybe that attracts a certain kind of demographic.

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And in that demographic, there are people who really get into numbers and so forth.

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So anyway, what I was going to ask is, you know, as a professor of the Old Testament, Revelation is a hard book in a way.

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Like, I don't think any eschatological position would deny that. Although I have heard

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I have heard pastors before. There's one pastor in particular. I won't mention his name. He's very popular. But he's like a revelation.

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It's easy. You know, you just apply the grammatical, historical or hermeneutic.

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And I'm thinking, man, I've read that a bunch of times. And I, you know,

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I get stumbled. Seven spirits of God. And I'm already, like, digging for commentaries trying to figure out who the seven spirits of God are.

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And no dispensational premillennialist takes that literally. Right. They all see that as a figurative number because the rules.

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Yeah. Grammatical, historical approach would you would have to look at that and say that that is a symbolic thing.

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So here's my question. When you are dealing with numbers and symbols to some extent, you see these numbers pop up in the

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Old Testament too. Seven, 12, 40. It seems like you have to understand that in the

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Old Testament to then understand what the New Testament is saying when they use these numbers. Maybe just give us a little crash course on that.

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Because I think that would help in interpreting some of these things. And then we can get to 1 ,000 and what you think 1 ,000 means.

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Yeah. These numbers, I think, oftentimes are symbolic.

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Now, again, when we talk about grammatical, historical, what most people really mean by that is what did the author intend?

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And we're talking here about the divine author in particular. What did God intend when he gave us these numbers?

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So you mentioned a very good one. The seven spirits of God. And I think most everyone, whatever your position is, will come to some conclusion.

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We don't believe that the spirit is seven. And so, yeah, we're Trinitarians, but maybe then we're

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Heptatarians when it comes to the Holy Spirit. No, no, no. And so what that is, it's a number of fullness.

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So it's the fullness of the spirits being described here. And so, yeah, we look at things like this.

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When we come to the number 12, very important.

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The tribes of Israel are 12. The apostles are 12. 12 pillars in Revelation.

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Yes. So there's a lot. And then 40 days, 40 nights. So, you know, 40 is a very important, you know, 40 years in the wilderness.

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So some of these numbers are very important biblically in the sense of how seven, of course, is the great number, you know.

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And so the Lord made, you know, seven day week. And again, seven is a very important number.

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Then you'll get some numbers in the book of Revelation. I'm not going to give you the exact number, but it's like 1 ,200 and something days.

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And I think it's mentioned, I think, with the two witnesses. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, it's like 1 ,200 and something days. And that's that same number, but just a little different. It's mentioned over in the book of Daniel as well.

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It's 1 ,200. But it's not quite the same number that you have in the book of Revelation. They're just a little off there, you know.

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And what exactly to do with these words, you know, with those numbers is difficult.

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It's very difficult, but I do take them very symbolically. So in Revelation, of course, it'll talk about the 12 stars, which is a sign of, again,

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Israel there and of God protecting Israel. And from Israel was born the

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Messiah. I think it's around chapter 12, if I'm not mistaken. But, again, you know, it doesn't say

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Israel, but the description looks like Israel. It's got the 12 stars, you know, and the mother gives birth to Israel.

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I mean, it's the Messiah. I'm sorry, Messiah. So, again, I see these numbers quite symbolically.

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I don't take them. 144 ,000, I think, is a great example of this.

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I don't take that number literally. I know some do. Jehovah Witnesses, for instance, at least used to.

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Then they got over that number. I'm not sure what they did after that. But some groups,

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I think, do take it literally. At the end of time, there'll be, you know, exactly this many people and so forth.

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But, again, it's like a 12 times 12 type, you know, thing. And I don't think that's, you know,

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I think there's the 12 times 12 gives you stuff. This becomes one of the main critiques.

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And I think this comes from post -millennialists and pre -millennialists. Because they say, well, there have to be rules for these symbols.

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Otherwise, you can make them mean, I guess, whatever you want, right? And that's the typical critique you hear. Like, what do you just say?

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Well, I guess 1 ,000 means a number of completion or fulfillment of some kind. And I know the retort is like, well, does he own the cattle on 1 ,000 hills?

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Is Jesus literally a door, right? Of course, there's these obvious grammatical,

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I guess, flourishes or whatever that we know they don't mean.

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You know, Trump does this all the time, too, which is great, right? Not to bring him into biblical prophecy here. But Trump, he's doing this now.

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This is going to drop later. But as we're speaking right now, there's a question about what happened with these nuclear enrichment uranium facilities.

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And Trump is like, they're totally destroyed, right? Like, maybe they are.

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But he tends to oversell or overplay. Or he wants to bring things to completion, tidy it up, and move on when it's usually messy.

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And so anyway, with biblical prophecy, sometimes, I don't know, you know, were all the inhabitants of the land wiped out and decimated?

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No, clearly not, because some of them remained and the Jews had to deal with them. And there are these things that seem to indicate it's not.

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There's a completion element, but maybe not fully. And we use this kind of expression in our daily lives.

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So maybe I'm making the argument for amillennialism here. But what I'm asking is, you know, how do you tell the difference, though?

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Because it says 1 ,000 years. Like, is there a key in the text that tells you this isn't literal?

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Or is it just you're noticing broad patterns? Because that's what you gave us before is, like, there's these broad patterns, and I think it just fits these broad patterns.

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That's correct. It's really the broad sweep of Scripture. And when I read the book of Revelation, there's a lot of Old Testament imagery, a lot of Old Testament language there.

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Now, you know, when I read Revelation and it says, OK, there's seven trumpets that sound. OK, there's seven trumpets.

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I don't think. But yet the notion that it was seven, there's a certain completeness to this.

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OK, but, yeah, there's seven trumpets. OK. Then there's vials that are poured out as well.

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You know, there's seven of them. OK, seven. But yet that they're all seven. I think they're talking about, you know, some of the plagues on the earth and different.

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Yes. Yeah. So some of these numbers.

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I mean, the word seven there, I believe, is seven. But yet there's a certain fullness that's being described in these judgments of God that he's bringing upon the earth.

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OK, there's a certain fullness to it. And again, I'm looking for, you know, some of the imagery and how it connects to the

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Old Testament. That's what I'm looking for. For the word thousand, of course, we all millennials love that passage.

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And, Peter, for with the Lord is like a thousand years. Yes, that's our get out of jail free card,

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I guess. You know, we're in trouble. Use that one. But that's what the gap theory guys use, too, though.

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That's right. So with the Lord, you know, a day is a thousand years. So and again,

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I mean, that's a good point. I mean, what Peter's saying is correct, obviously. I mean, I believe that. And could that be?

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I'm sorry. Maybe this will you can disregard this question if you have a stream of thought. But I just thought of it.

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You know, how would we how would we differ between the Genesis narrative? Right. Did God create in seven days?

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Because that's a big thing for both of us, I'm sure. Oh, very big. It wasn't millions of years. It was seven days.

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But then in Revelation now, you know, maybe walk me through that. Is it just because of Revelation's apocalyptic?

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Well, yeah, the book of Revelation is far more symbolic in the use of.

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The terms that it uses a lot more symbolic, and I think most people would agree with that. I think they would.

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When you read the book of Genesis, it's just like normal history.

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And then when you look at other portions of Scripture. So, for instance, you go to Exodus 20 and the

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Ten Commandments. For in six days, the Lord made the heavens and the earth. I mean, that's not poetry.

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That's not. And even if it was poetry, it would still be. It doesn't mean it's necessarily figuratively, you know.

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And so the Scriptures are looking at the days, I think, very much in a literal sense.

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Where, again, when you get to the book of Revelation, it's different. Let me go back to Revelation 20, though, just for a second.

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Because it talks about the first resurrection. It talks about a second resurrection. And it looks like there's a millennial in between.

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And that's why in millennialism, you know, you have the resurrection of the righteous.

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And then later on, you have a thousand years later, then you have the resurrection of the wicked. That's right.

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But, you know, when I look at what Jesus talks about and what Daniel talks about, it looks like there's a general resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked at the same time.

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Moreover, if you look at that passage. And again, I'm looking at the broad sweep of Scripture. It mentions

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Gog and Magog and the warfare of Gog and Magog. Now, a lot of folks see, if you look at Ezekiel 38, 39, there's a battle with Gog and Magog described there as well.

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And most premillennialists that I know, I think all of them, would say that that's the Battle of Armageddon.

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And I would agree with them on that. I think that is the Battle of Armageddon. They see that as premillennial.

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But the problem is, in the book of Revelation, it's clearly postmillennial, you see.

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And so I would look at that and say, well, you know, if we don't take the millennial literally, we have really the one resurrection, the general resurrection, which

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I think the Scriptures teach that. Now, sometimes it does focus upon the resurrection of the just because they want to focus on that.

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But I think it's a general resurrection. Are you saying that each position has to shift the sequence to make their system fit in that passage?

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Is that what you're saying? Somewhat, yes. Yes. If you go through that passage, whatever view, it's a difficult passage for everyone.

30:55

I know the premillennialists, in some ways they have the advantage there. But what I would say that even if you follow the premillennialists view down there consistently, they've got some issues they have to deal with.

31:08

Like it looks like Gog and Magog is premillennial. And Ezekiel, but now it's postmillennial.

31:14

Is there two battles of Gog and Magog? I don't think so. Is there two resurrections? Jesus talks about on the last day, the righteous and the wicked are raised from the dead.

31:27

It looks like a general resurrection. And so I think the first resurrection is more talking about a spiritual thing.

31:36

The second resurrection is the resurrection of, you know, of everyone physically. Okay. So anyway, but again,

31:45

Revelation 20 has difficulties for everyone, for every position.

31:52

There is difficulties there. Now, I'll admit, if you take it literal, you probably have less difficulties.

31:58

Okay. Yeah. I think that's probably true. But you do have some major difficulties with what

32:04

I think is like the general resurrection, the battle of Gog and Magog, even the binding of Satan.

32:10

I think there's a bit of a problem there because I think Satan is bound now in the sense, again, he's not deceiving the nations in the way he was in the

32:20

Old Testament. Now the gospel is going to all the nations. That's going on now. You see? So again...

32:26

Yeah. Because you believe he's still active and he's still... Oh, hell, very much so. Right. And even the

32:32

Puritans had the old deluder Satan act, right? They would have been covenantal, but they thought he's still at work.

32:38

Oh, yes. There's books written by the old Puritans about we're not ignorant of his devices. That's right.

32:44

His devices. That's right. So they thought he was engaged in deception. They just didn't think he was captivating people groups.

32:52

And that's the difference in your mind. That's correct. In other words, with the coming of Christ, as it says, he fell from heaven.

32:59

And Jesus bound the strong man is now spoiling his kingdom. And the gospel is now going out to all the nations, the great promise of the

33:10

Old Testament, whosoever will believe on the Lord or the great promise in the Old Testament is, and in you, all the...

33:19

Abraham. In you, all the nations of the earth will be blessed.

33:24

That is now being fulfilled. And again, Galatians 3 really emphasizes that as well.

33:31

So, I mean, there's so many questions. I'm trying to even think where to... This has been really, really good so far.

33:36

And we're only half an hour in. So we got time. So are you then a partial preterist then?

33:42

Do you have to be to be amillennial? I think so. Yes. I think so. I'm a partial preterist.

33:49

I think some of the things in the Olivet discourse is fulfilled with the coming of the

33:57

Romans and destroying the temple in Jerusalem. But I think those things were types of the great destruction that's going to come at the second coming at Armageddon.

34:11

So even though I see it, some of the Olivet discourse was fulfilled in 70

34:18

AD, I still even see that section as typological of what's coming at the second coming.

34:24

But then some parts of the Olivet discourse is clearly future. I'm not a full preterist because I talked to a preterist once and I said, so really sin will continue for us for all eternity.

34:40

And he had to say, yeah, that's correct. I'm like, no, I can't do that. Yeah. I think

34:46

Gary DeMar, as I understand, became a full preterist. So I guess,

34:51

I mean, that seems like a really discouraging... So like everything happened, everything that Revelation talks about. I mean, that's insane to me a little, but...

34:59

Yeah, I can't go there. So maybe let's talk about 70 AD real quick. So, because the

35:05

Revelation has these very specific bold judgments, for example, right? And my dad, who's a pastor at the church

35:12

I attend, right? He's preaching through this right now. And he's going into, you know, very specific detail about each one of these judgments.

35:22

And it seems like the passage goes into detail about how many people are going to die and what is going to happen to kill them.

35:31

And it's, you know, by the time you're done with that, you're just like, boy, I hope the rapture is real because I don't want to live through any of that.

35:38

Right? But here's the thing. You know, you asked the question,

35:44

I guess, why would Revelation go into such granular detail about these things if it's symbolic?

35:50

And if it is symbolic, I mean, are there at least things in 70 AD? Because I'm assuming that's what the bold judgments would have been 70

35:56

AD. I don't know where you can look at and say, okay, this was talking about this.

36:02

Well, go ahead. That's very difficult. Let me just say this. Okay. And I'm talking in very broad terms because if you give me specific passages sometimes,

36:12

I'll just kind of say, I'm not sure what it talks about here, John. I mean, I'd have to just tell you that. Okay.

36:18

But in the broad sweep of Revelation, the way I understand it is it's really talking about that spiritual conflict that's going on right now in this earth between Christ and his kingdom and the devil and his kingdom.

36:34

And yes, there are temporal judgments that Christ sometimes pours out upon this earth, upon people.

36:42

And so, yes, there's great judgments that sometimes fall upon a people.

36:49

But you can't take one of the bowls and say, hey, that was from 1200 to 1300. Yeah, I don't do that.

36:55

But what I will say is those, in other words, I look at the bowls. I look at the trumpets.

37:01

I see these things as sort of overlapping with each other. And I see them as going on through the whole period of the church period.

37:10

And I see this as, again, a great spiritual struggle between, again, the

37:16

Lord and his people and the devil and his people, basically. Okay.

37:21

So it's talking mostly about, and of course, what's going on in heaven and the spiritual warfare that's going on now.

37:29

So in the general sense, that's how I read the book of Revelation.

37:37

So let me give you an argument that you hear from premillennialists sometimes, and maybe it's just dispensational premillennialists, but they'll say that's the eschatology of the

37:47

Catholic church, to make these things symbolic, in that the reformers had undeveloped eschatology, and they just adopted that.

37:56

I don't know if all the reformers were amillennial, but I think most of them, the magisterial ones were, right? Most of them were.

38:02

There may be a few millennialists, but just like there were a few, there were a few

38:08

Arminian... Recounting Anabaptists.

38:14

Yeah, Puritans. There were. Oh, were there? Yes, just a very few, but there were just a few.

38:22

But yes, that's usually said. It's usually said that they didn't... I've heard it a couple of different ways.

38:29

One, they didn't apply their principle consistently, like through eschatology.

38:36

They did real well with justification, adoption, sanctification, the doctrines of grace, but as you keep going and you get into eschatology, they didn't fully develop that like they should have.

38:49

Right. And when you read them, like when I read the Puritans on Revelation, most of the time, the way they will try to interpret things is historically.

39:00

It was just like you just said in a minute ago, John, this here is describing this part of history, church history.

39:06

And then this is this part of church history. And of course, Antichrist will end up being the Pope and things.

39:12

Yeah, he's always the Pope, right? He's always the Pope. And which in a sense, I agree with them.

39:18

I think the Pope is an Antichrist. I do agree with them on this. Now, whether you could ask me, do

39:24

I believe there's going to be a final Antichrist? Very possible. There may be a final

39:30

Antichrist figure who is sort of, you know, the other ones are sort of symbolic or typological of the one who's to come.

39:40

Yeah, I could see something like that. I think Paul talks about a man of sin. So it's very possible there is a final

39:49

Antichrist type character that will occur. Now, could he be the Pope at the time?

39:55

Maybe so. I don't know. Well, let's say the 10 City Hill. And yeah, it won't have a desire for women.

40:02

I don't know if that's a right translation, but that's. I think it is. I think it's out of Daniel. I think it's out of Daniel 11.

40:09

I think that's the Pope right there. He doesn't have a wife. That's good. It could be. It could be.

40:14

And I think that Titus Epiphanes, who was the Syrian, who did the abomination of desolation.

40:21

I think he is a type of the Antichrist. Because Paul uses that language of him in 2

40:30

Thessalonians chapter 2. So you do take that. That is a literal thing.

40:35

So you do think that the abomination of desolation did occur in 70 AD then? Well, I see multiple ones.

40:43

I see one that occurred when Antiochus in about what? 168, somewhere around there with the

40:51

Maccabees, where he offered a pig on the altar. Oh, that's what I'm thinking.

40:56

Yeah, right. Sorry. Yeah, that was an abomination of desolation. But I really think also Jesus is referring to 70

41:02

AD as an abomination of desolation. As you look in. So when they destroy the temple, that is an abomination of desolation of the temple as well.

41:15

Do I believe there's a, could there be another temple in the future? And so could be, but I don't.

41:22

Jesus said he was a temple, right? He was the temple. Exactly. He said one stone will not be left upon another.

41:29

That's right. You see, yeah. This temple in three days, I'll raise it up. He talked about his body as being the temple.

41:36

Then he talks about the church as being the temple. Now we could still argue.

41:41

Is there a temple to be built in the future? And even as a non -millennialist, I could say maybe, maybe not.

41:48

But right now. Memorial sacrifices? No, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. See, I can't bring back sacrifices in that way.

41:55

No, no, I can't do that. And that's what some of the dispensationalists, I don't know if they all believe that, but some of them do believe.

42:02

And I think they have to impose the memorial aspect because it was in Ezekiel. I think it talks about that, right?

42:08

Isn't it in Ezekiel? That's right. And I would agree that, see, I would look at Ezekiel 40 through 48 as, again, in an non -millennial perspective.

42:17

Not a literal temple there. It's huge. I mean, it's very, very large. But I see it as the worship of God is going worldwide.

42:28

Maybe, matter of fact, you'll see many references to Ezekiel 40 through 48 in the last two chapters of Revelation.

42:36

Just take a good cross -reference Bible and look at how many times you'll see references that clearly go back to that.

42:44

So new heavens and new earth is probably what we're looking at with Ezekiel 40 through 48.

42:52

I think that's what it is. Now, again, but again, to me, if you say, can another temple be built?

42:57

Well, of course it could be built. And then could an antichrist figure reign in that temple? It's possible.

43:03

But I don't believe in a temple being rebuilt, in other words, we're bringing back the old covenant in full force and even the dispensationalists will go, no, no, no, we don't go that far.

43:14

Yeah, well, they have to do the memorial thing to explain it, right? Let me just tell you this, though.

43:21

If you read the old rabbis, they'll talk about when Messiah comes, there'll still be sacrifices, but they're no longer sin sacrifices.

43:31

They're only thanksgiving sacrifices because they recognize Messiah has dealt with sin. And then let me tell you this one,

43:37

John, and I meant to tell you this earlier. They'll talk in the rabbinic literature, they'll talk about the messianic time.

43:47

Guess what they call it? The millennium. Yes, they do.

43:53

This goes back a ways. This goes back a ways. And so even the old rabbis would talk about when

43:59

Messiah's time is a millennium. Now with the rabbis, let me tell you this. Some of them believed that the

44:08

Lord had divided everything up into a thousand year period, literal thousand year period.

44:14

And so when Messiah comes, his period is a thousand years. And then after that is the new heavens and new earth, basically, or what they would call the hereafter.

44:24

Okay? So even the rabbis have competing eschatologies. Yeah, they do. The dominant old rabbinic...

44:32

I'm not talking about today's rabbis. Oh, okay. But the old rabbis, when they would talk about the messianic kingdom, would sometimes use the word millennium.

44:42

That's interesting. Yeah. So this brings up... And I think this goes back, by the way, this goes back probably to the notion of seven day creation or six day creation plus the

44:54

Sabbath, the Messiah being probably around the 6 ,000. After that's the seven, seven being the new heavens and the new earth.

45:02

You see the eternal Sabbath, you see. That's probably what they're thinking. So very interesting idea.

45:08

So you mean to say like the earth is 6 ,000 years old? Oh, yeah. They believe that.

45:13

Oh, yeah. Because right now in Judaism, if you say what year is it? It's like 5786.

45:19

I may be off on that. I'm glad Tucker Carlson's not asking me, but it's 5786.

45:26

You know what I'm talking about. Something like this. It's like 5786.

45:32

And you say, well, what's 5786? Since creation. So believe it or not, the rabbis, if you say, you mean you believe in 6 ,000 years of creation?

45:42

The rabbis believe in less than 6 ,000 years of creation. Wow. They're young earth.

45:48

The millennium hasn't started for them. They believe it's going to come. Come when Messiah comes. When Messiah comes.

45:54

Okay. Let me tell you this, though. In the same writings, though, they say, but he'll come in the

46:00

Roman time. They know that. Because of Daniel 2, they know that.

46:05

They need a revived Roman Empire. They need a revived Roman Empire. So maybe the dispensationalists are right after all.

46:12

But no, but truly, because they recognize Daniel 2, and they go, no, no, it'll be during the time of the

46:18

Romans Messiah comes. Oh, yes, they do say that. And if you're out there listening to this and you're getting confused, don't feel bad.

46:26

We've done our job, John. Yeah, I just don't want people. Here's the thing. And this is a struggle,

46:33

I think, in apologetics to some extent, because we got people now, as you know, trying to force homosexuality on the church, all kinds of innovations and feminism.

46:45

And they'll say things like, well, this was figurative, or that was in that time, and it doesn't apply to our culture.

46:52

And obviously we have to stand against these things. And I think that's what people get worried about.

46:58

They want prophecy sometimes to be as cut and dry as those things, as moral issues, as justification by faith, as the

47:06

Trinity, as Christ and His identity, as the hypostatic union. And it's not.

47:13

It is in a different... I think it's important just to emphasize that for people who feel bad about being confused.

47:20

I mean, obviously there's truth. God wanted us to know something, right? Because He put it down there. But it does seem like there are some things that are a little ambiguous or mysterious that...

47:31

I don't know. I'll let you finish the sentence because you can see the issue I'm wrestling with here. Prophecy, what's to come, is something that is obscure to us.

47:45

God has not fully revealed to us every detail of what's going to come in the future. Just like the apostles struggled with many things, they took everything literal.

47:53

They thought the kingdom of heaven was going to be that, okay, now Israel will rule over all the nations.

48:01

They took the kingdom of heaven in a very literal sense. And Christ had to say, no, no, no, no.

48:08

You know, no, that's not the kingdom of heaven. And He had to...

48:14

And even... Remember, even at the Ascension, are you going to restore the kingdom of Israel now? No, it's not for you to know the times or the seasons and so forth.

48:23

And again, I think as believers, we must be very charitable with one another in the area of eschatology.

48:33

I laid down what I thought were the lines that we have to be careful of. A literal second coming.

48:41

A literal heaven, literal earth. Judgment. These are non -negotiables.

48:48

They're very clearly taught in scripture. The other things, I think we have to be much more flexible and not just cut people off over these issues.

48:59

No, I think, because the future is a difficult thing and not everything is fully revealed.

49:08

Now, again, when it comes to... The biggest criticism I usually see of Amillennialism, you guys have an inconsistent way of interpreting scripture.

49:18

You're literal, but when it comes to eschatology, you go figurative on us.

49:24

To which I've already told you, I see literal this, this, this, and this about the future. So I'm not...

49:30

But I could look at things like, again, when

49:35

Jesus talks about his body being the temple, when he talks about the kingdom of heaven is at hand, look, it's not a literal kingdom there in one sense.

49:46

And so all through scripture, when we read it, we have to determine, do we take this literal or do we not take this literal?

49:55

It's a difficult question, but yet it's one that as we read scripture overall, sometimes yes, sometimes no.

50:03

I mean, we can go back and look at some of the scriptures about Messiah. Some of them are clearly not literal about Messiah, but others are very literal about Messiah.

50:15

And you go, well, which is it when we run into this passage? Well, now we can see, because we look back and we can see which ones much more clearly were more figurative and which ones were more literal, you see.

50:30

And I think it would be the same at the end of this world. And then we can look back and go, okay, now we have the key and see these were more figurative here.

50:40

These were more literal here. But look, all of us, I don't care who we are. We have to recognize that not all scripture is consistently literal.

50:49

Some of the statements are clearly spiritual statements. When Jesus talks about, what is it in, it's either

50:56

John five or six. When he talks about, you must eat the flesh and blood of the son of man.

51:05

Well, the people were taking that literally. And of course, Jesus will later say, the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life.

51:12

And by the context, we can tell he did not mean to be understood. Matter of fact, remember a lot of his disciples, when they heard

51:19

Christ talking in this way, these are hard things and they went away from him.

51:25

And so Jesus would have to look at his disciples and say, will you go away as well? And Peter says, no, you have the words of eternal life.

51:32

But he would sometimes say things in a very spiritual way, in a very, you know, not literal.

51:41

He did not always use literal language. And so we've got to understand that is very true about prophecy.

51:47

And again, go back and study the old prophecy that we know is already fulfilled. Some of it's literal.

51:53

Some of it's not. Did the mountains literally shout for joy when Messiah came? And now we know, no, they didn't.

52:00

Okay. Now in one sense, it's describing creation rejoicing at this.

52:05

Is that true? Yes. Yes. You know, it's the fullness of time.

52:11

Yeah. You know? So yes. You know, will all of nature rejoice once the curse is taken away?

52:22

Yeah, I think so. You know, but again, we have to, it's not that I want to avoid being literal.

52:30

It's, I want to interpret the scripture in the way that it's intended by the divine author.

52:37

Right. So I'm not trying to say, Oh, you know, if someone is figurative, because they don't want to believe scripture, that's one issue.

52:46

I don't like that. And people will do that. Sometimes they'll take things spiritually because they don't want to, they don't want to accept the teaching of script.

52:54

I mean, they just, they disagree. They're looking for loopholes. They're looking for loopholes. Yeah, exactly. I have no time for what

53:01

I'm struggling with is what does the Lord want us to understand this literally or spiritually here?

53:08

Well, we do this all the time with your wife says I'll be home in a few minutes. And you're, you look at the text and it's 10 minutes past and you think, well, what does a few mean?

53:18

That's right. You know, scripture says, you know, all Judea and Jerusalem came to John to be baptized.

53:27

Well, we know that's not every single individual all there.

53:32

It means a big chunk of folks from Judea and Jerusalem came.

53:38

I mean, there was huge revival going on, but did every did literally all people come?

53:44

I mean, we got to give the Bible the same, allow it to speak in the same language we speak in.

53:53

Right. So we, I'm going to give you the floor cause we're short on time and I want you to talk about Israel and the modern state of Israel.

54:02

And if you're this eschatology has any application to any of this, but I did want to mention to you just cause

54:07

I think it's funny. So in John six is where you were talking about where Jesus literally, people think he literally drank my flesh and they leave him.

54:16

So it says in a verse, I think it's okay.

54:25

65. He says, for this reason, I have said to you that no one can come to me unless it has been granted to him from the father.

54:31

And at verse 66 is, and as a result, many of his disciples withdrew and we're not walking with him anymore.

54:37

Now, of course this, this is right after he's talking about drink my flesh, eat my blood. So yes. Anyway, cage stage

54:43

Calvinist. That's right. So I had someone cage stage Calvinist said, this is about Calvinism.

54:49

Cause you know, you find Calvinism in every text of course. So they just left him because he was a Calvinist. That's what was going on there.

54:55

And you look at the whole passage. You're like, well, I think it was something else, but anyway, tell us about, go ahead.

55:03

Let me talk about Israel because what I, what I see, what I'm seeing more and more out there is that if anybody is sort of Sympathetic toward the

55:14

Jews, or let's say pro Israel, however you want to say it, they'll immediately say, oh, they're dispensational and I'm an amillennialist, but let me tell you,

55:26

I, and yes, it's part of my eschatology and I will, I'll talk about that right now, but I, I'm an amillennialist.

55:34

I'm not a dispensationalist, but yet I'm pro Israel in many ways.

55:40

So now let me tell you what I mean by that. Okay. Cause this is very important. It doesn't mean that everything

55:46

Israel does is right. Israel can do bad things. And when they do bad things, I'm against them.

55:52

And in one sense, I'm for Israel in the same sense that who are the good guys out there today?

55:57

Well, I would look at Hungary and say, Hungary is pretty good. I mean, are they a perfect country?

56:03

No, but am I pro Hungary? Yes, I am today. Even a country like Argentina, I kind of like that guy running

56:11

Argentina down there. He's not perfect. He's got flaws, but I think he's on the good side and I don't see a lot of nations on the good side.

56:20

That's the way I see Israel. Is Israel perfect? No. Yeah. Are they part of the good guys out there?

56:26

Yes. I think they are part of the good guys, but that's now I'm talking politically there. Okay. I'm just talking purely political.

56:33

That's a, that's a political opinion. Now let me come to scripture. When we talk about Israel, I'm talking about the

56:41

Jews as a whole. So whether the Jews are in the land of the old land of Canaan, or whether they're in America or wherever they are, that's what

56:52

I'm talking about. When we talk about the Jews as a whole, that's what I'm, that's what I'm talking about.

56:57

So I'm not talking about the modern state of Israel. However, if we talk about the Jews as a whole, the modern state's part of that in a sense.

57:06

Okay. So I believe all of this. For my view of eschatology and the

57:12

Jews, I would look to Romans nine through 11. And if you look there, notice first in Romans nine, at the very beginning of Romans nine, notice

57:22

Paul's view about the Jews. He wishes he could become accursed, that they may be saved.

57:30

Now I look at some of our brothers in evangelicalism and how they're going after the

57:36

Jews. And I said, I wish you would have the same attitude and spirit that Paul has. He would become cursed.

57:43

He would, he's willing to go to hell that the Jews may be saved. He loved the

57:48

Jews. He loved his people. And I think that's a good lesson for us, right? Just starting right there.

57:53

Then when you get to chapter 10, again, he, you know, his desire, his great hope is the salvation of the

58:02

Jews. Again, you can see his great love for them. He's not just bashing them.

58:08

He's looking, now he'll, he'll tell it like it is, but yet you can see there's a love for his people that he has.

58:15

But then when you get to chapter 11, there he goes, has God forsaken the people whom he foreknew, whom he has chosen?

58:25

And he goes, God forbid. He goes, if that were true, explain my being saved.

58:31

And then he goes, there's always a remnant according to election. If you look from the time of the new

58:37

Testament, I mean, from the time of Paul to our time today, there's always been a remnant of Jews who have been saved.

58:47

You can go down through history and see Jewish people who have become Christians. I could mention a few names, but we've got,

58:53

I'm short on time. So down through the years, there's always been a group of Jews.

58:59

It's a smaller group that God has saved them. Just like he saved the apostle Paul. And then he talks about how, that in preaching to the

59:10

Gentiles, who are receiving the gospel, it's causing a certain jealousy among the

59:16

Jews and a certain hostility against the gospel. And he understands this. And so in Thessalonians, he says, they killed

59:22

Christ. They killed the prophets and so forth. Now, before we go see how terrible that is.

59:28

Well, but who are they killing? They were killing Jews. The prophets were Jews. Jesus was a

59:34

Jew. Keep that in mind as we think about these things. But then it talks about, we

59:40

Gentiles have been grafted in to the covenant promises given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

59:45

They were broken, broken off because of unbelief. But what does Paul say? Boast not against the natural branches.

59:54

That's what's going on out there. A lot of these guys, they are boasting against the branches.

01:00:00

And Paul says, don't do that. Listen, who are our spiritual heroes? They're all

01:00:07

Jews. They're Old Testament saints, New Testament saints. There are very few Gentile heroes in scripture,

01:00:14

Luke and Timothy, half and half. But I mean, look, our spiritual heroes are

01:00:20

Jewish people. We owe a debt to them in this sense, if you think about it. Okay. And again,

01:00:26

I mentioned that great promise in Abraham. The father of the

01:00:32

Jews, all the nations will be blessed. We're blessed in him. All of us are, you see, very important.

01:00:40

And so having this attitude against the Jews, I don't understand it.

01:00:46

Now let me continue though. The real, real important here. Then Paul says, I have a mystery for you.

01:00:52

And then he talks about when the times the Gentiles is over, then all

01:00:58

Israel will be saved. Now there's two ways people normally interpret that when they say all

01:01:03

Israel, all that doesn't mean that it just means that small remnant of Jews, that they come part of the church and that's all

01:01:10

Israel there. That's not, I don't think it's a very good interpretation at all. Why is that a mystery?

01:01:16

That wouldn't be a mystery. The mystery is this, that the Jews will once again, be grafted back as a whole.

01:01:25

When the times of the Gentiles are over right now, it's the times of the Gentiles with a small remnant of Jews being saved all through time.

01:01:34

But when the times of the Gentiles are done, I show you a mystery, all Israel be saved.

01:01:40

And then he goes on to say that as regards the gospel, they're enemies.

01:01:49

In other words, they are hostile toward the gospel. Of course they are, but that doesn't mean that we're to be belligerent and to be, you know, as there are enemies, they weren't the enemies of Paul.

01:02:01

He was willing to be accursed for them. What does Paul say? He goes, yes, they're enemies.

01:02:07

According to the gospel, they're hostile to us. When we talk about the gospel, however, they are beloved for the father's sake.

01:02:17

And then he makes that great statement for the gifts and callings of God are without repentance.

01:02:23

God called Abraham. He called the Jewish people. Those gifts and callings they're without repentance.

01:02:30

That doesn't mean that all Jews are saved. No, of course not. But notice what is said there.

01:02:36

They're beloved by God for the sake of the fathers, for those great covenant promises.

01:02:44

And one day he will save them. And those promises, what I see right now, matter of fact, last time

01:02:50

I was in Israel, I was listening to these Orthodox Jews give a lecture. And I agreed a hundred percent with them until the one last point they go, we are living in Israel today and the

01:03:02

Valley of dry bones. And I'm like, exactly. Israel or to use the language of Hosea will abide many days without a sacrifice.

01:03:15

In other words, 70 AD, they will abide many days from 70 AD on without sacrifice, without an idol and so forth.

01:03:24

But then what's it say in the next verse? And in the latter days, they'll seek David, their

01:03:29

King. All Jews know what that means. That's not David coming back. Literally. That's the son of David, the

01:03:37

Messiah. And then they will accept Messiah, their

01:03:42

King. Same thing with the Valley of dry bones. They're drunk. Why are they so they're called very dry because they're going to go for many, many years, spiritually dry from 70

01:03:53

AD on they are spiritually dry, but then God puts them back together again.

01:03:59

And then they, then who does God put over them? He puts David as their

01:04:04

King. That is the Messiah. They will exactly what it says in Zechariah.

01:04:11

They'll look on him whom they've pierced and they'll mourn for him. And they'll come to him as a whole.

01:04:17

I believe that will be fulfilled. So what I believe in my eschatology at the end of time, when the times of the

01:04:27

Gentiles are finished, all Israel will be saved. Now all does that mean every last individual?

01:04:33

No, but does that mean the Jews as a whole, including national, you know, the nation state?

01:04:38

Yes. That's what it means. They will indeed come to Christ. And so that's what

01:04:43

I see. And therefore we must not boast against the branches. Now, again, that doesn't mean, does that mean

01:04:49

I'll never can criticize Jewish people? No. If you take someone like George Soros, I have plenty of criticism of George Soros.

01:04:58

How about, you know, this bad guy over here, you know? Yes. Okay. You know, so it's not that, will

01:05:04

I criticize the nation of Israel? Yeah. If I, if I think they're in the wrong on something, I'll say, I think they're on the wrong here.

01:05:11

Okay. Do I think Netanyahu's government's perfect? No. Um, you know, but yeah.

01:05:18

Would you rather live there or Iran? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And, uh, there's guys in his cabinet that would be hostile toward Christians.

01:05:29

I think Netanyahu is very pro Christian in many ways. So he knows that's where the support is.

01:05:36

He knows where the support from America is coming from. It's the older evangelicals.

01:05:42

Unfortunately, what I see in younger evangelicals is a different, uh, path. And I think they're going in the wrong path on this.

01:05:50

Can I ask you one last question here on this? Because, uh, now it's interesting. I, I've talked to a number of all millennial and even post -millennial guys who say exactly what you just said.

01:06:02

And when I look through church history, it seems like even many of the reformers and Puritans thought there was going to be an in gathering.

01:06:08

Yes. Uh, after the time of the Gentiles is complete, there'll be a time even

01:06:13

Edwards, I think was looking in newspapers to, I mean, it almost sounds like a dispensationalist, but he was looking to, to see what was the news in Israel to see if there were signs of something coming together,

01:06:24

I guess, but, but here, so here's the question I have. Um, and I'll just make this the last question there's, um,

01:06:32

I want to know if this is novel or not. I, I actually kind of already, I think know the answer, but I, I want you to say it since you're more of an expert on this, there's an interpretation that seems to be gaining steam and it's an, it seems like an odd one in my mind.

01:06:46

It's it's, I don't, maybe this has some tradition going back, but it's the idea that the

01:06:54

Jews, uh, and they'll sometimes say Talmudic Judaism, they'll use that term, but the post 70 ad

01:06:59

Jews. So without a temple that there's two things that happened. Number one, they lost their temple.

01:07:06

So their religion now is a different religion and it's been added to by these other traditions. So therefore it is not

01:07:12

Judaism. And the other thing is that they are genetically or racially not

01:07:19

Jews because they were defeated, destroyed. they blended in with other cultures and the, the current mostly

01:07:26

Ashkenazi Jews are actually just Europeans that there, and, and this is an interesting one to me because I know there's been genetic studies done.

01:07:33

I haven't looked into it fully, but I know that there are obviously a pretty proselytes brought in and, and you have, um, some mixing going on, but there's still,

01:07:42

I, and I don't know what the percentage is, but they, they, they still have Jewish blood. There's still a, a linear ancestral connection.

01:07:50

Um, so, but anyways, they'll say, well, it's not enough. That's not enough. These, and some will even say that they're European. Now the blood has been tainted.

01:07:57

So what you have now is there really aren't any Jewish people anymore that the

01:08:02

Jews, they, they, they died. They're gone. That was 70 AD. And now all you have is the church.

01:08:08

The church is the only Israel. And so they look at Romans nine through 11 and let's say that must have been before 70

01:08:15

AD. What Paul was talking about there. Now, um, this seems like a very novel interpretation to me.

01:08:24

And, and I don't, I'd like to just hear from you a reaction to that. Is that, were there people in church history that believed this?

01:08:32

Is this a new thing? An old thing? What is it? I think this is a very new thing. Cause if you read even like the, the, a lot of the old guys, they'll still mention people,

01:08:41

Jews as Jews, not as you, Martin Luther thought they were Jews, right? Now you can say, well, now, you know, in our day, they, in other words, okay.

01:08:50

When do you want to say there's no more Jews after 70 AD? Well, that's ridiculous. Okay. It's just absolutely.

01:08:56

They didn't all die, right? Somehow they, you know, they didn't. That's just ridiculous.

01:09:01

If you say, okay, now today we don't know who's who and so forth. Again, this is, this is, it's funny though.

01:09:08

The same people who will say that will say the Jews are trying to dominate the world. And I'm like, wait a minute. You can't have it both ways.

01:09:14

Well, yeah. And dominate the world at the same time. Right. Just this one. I can't help myself.

01:09:20

I have to say, if that is true, if they are European, that means white people are dominating the world.

01:09:25

Cause they're, wouldn't they be your fellow European? That's correct. Like, why are you, why are you upset?

01:09:31

Yeah. I don't know. It's a whole thing's internally contradictory to me. Let me tell you this again. Not only can you do, you know, can you look at people's genealogical background, you know, with these tests you can take ancestry, ancestry .com

01:09:48

and it'll show you, I mean, it's very clear. Moreover, like take

01:09:53

Ashkenazi Jews. They have certain, they're more prone to certain diseases.

01:10:00

Every group, every group has certain diseases. They're more prone to. And so again, they have all the markings of these kinds, you know, of, of these things they do.

01:10:10

Plus there's a whole, there's a whole tradition stretching from the time of Christ to our day.

01:10:19

There's a tradition. Even if you go after the Talmud, for instance, okay. If you read the

01:10:24

Talmud, it's really the document. It's, it's

01:10:29

Pharisaic Judaism. And when Paul talks about, he's from the strictest sect of Judaism by strictest, he doesn't mean he didn't go to movies.

01:10:40

What do you, what do you mean? He didn't know, but if you were to ask you, what does it mean? The most accurate sect of Judaism was

01:10:49

Pharisee. If you want to compare it to the Sadducees or the

01:10:54

Essings, what he's saying is, listen, I belong to the Orthodox party of Pharisees.

01:11:02

And look, what is, what is the Talmud and what is modern

01:11:08

Judaism, especially in Orthodox Judaism, it's Pharisee ism. Now, right.

01:11:13

Yeah. And Pharisee ism, by the way, is not hypocrisy. Okay. You can have hypocrisy in anything, right?

01:11:20

But no, that's the, that is considered Orthodox Judaism. Okay. And so that, again, we can see, we can see that it's very clear.

01:11:29

Now, did Orthodox Judaism, even in Christ's day, Paul's day have problems? Of course, they promoted tradition over scripture.

01:11:39

Absolutely. But yet that's where Orthodox, I mean, that was the Orthodoxy. That was clearly the

01:11:45

Orthodoxy. And later Judaism shows that. And so when you look at Judaism today, what is it?

01:11:52

It is Pharisee ism, which Paul was talking about. There's a tradition there.

01:11:58

Uh, and it is what it is. Okay. And I'll tell you what, if you read some of their stuff now, you have to get used to it.

01:12:05

When you first start reading it, you're like, Oh, this is crazy stuff. But if you read it carefully, a lot of it,

01:12:11

I agree with. And by the way, John, I had an Orthodox rabbi as a professor one time, and I still remember him coming to class one day.

01:12:18

And he goes, you know, I watched Jerry Falwell last night and he was very good. And of course, well, no.

01:12:27

And, uh, he goes, you know, Jerry did real well in that sermon last night I was watching. you know, and, uh, wow.

01:12:34

And so we do agree on many things. What, what he would finally say to us now,

01:12:40

Paul's the one who got things off, you know, Paul messed up. He's always the bad guy. Yeah. He's always the bad guy.

01:12:46

It's always Paul, but it's, but it's very interesting on some of these things.

01:12:52

And again, you know, obviously I was trained by the Jews, so I'm sure, I'm sure the people out there who.

01:12:59

Oh, yeah. The hyper conspiratorial type. These guys who are against the Jews, you know, are just going after Judaism or, you know, going after the

01:13:06

Jews today. I know they're not going to appreciate me. They go, Oh, he went to all these Jewish schools. You know, that's why it's not.

01:13:12

Cause you're dispensational. That's right. Yeah. See, he was affected in the Jews, but I'll say this to you.

01:13:17

I'll say this. I find the Jews. And again, I studied with them for years and I'll say this about them.

01:13:25

They're the most remarkable people for them to be such a small group of people.

01:13:30

I mean, on this earth, I mean, look, I think I know in Israel today, I think they've basically had about 10 million

01:13:37

Jews in Israel and probably, I don't know, another 5 million to 10 million outside.

01:13:45

So it's a very small amount of people, but look at how many of these guys have won like Nobel priest, not peace prize, but Nobel prizes and the hard sciences.

01:13:56

Look at how many doctors there are of these guys in our country. And as a percentage, you know,

01:14:02

Judaism, Jews are very small in America, but yet look how many doctors there are.

01:14:07

And, you know, and I'm like, I'm just amazed at them. They are a remarkable people.

01:14:14

I'm just, I'm just telling you how I see it there. I've been there. They're remarkable. I agree. I agree to an extent with, so like, yeah, cause

01:14:22

I live on the edge of, you know, New York's. There's a lot of Jewish people down there. And, you know, whenever I leave

01:14:28

New York, I do like my bagels and I'm like, just like, forget it. You're not going to get it anywhere.

01:14:33

I never got into the locks thing, but you know, I, I've had to work in many, I was a furniture impairment for years.

01:14:39

So I, I think I calculated it once. I was probably in like 15 ,000 houses during a 10 year period.

01:14:44

And so many of them were like in, in his, not me. I don't know how many percent, probably 2%, right. We're in the

01:14:50

Hasidic communities. So, or less, but, but it was still quite a bit of houses. And anyway,

01:14:56

I was just going to say that what I noticed is that, you know, obviously they're secular Jews, they're Hasidic Jews, but it seems like across the board, they want to pursue excellence for the most part in whatever field.

01:15:10

Some, some of the junkiest places I was in were also Hasidic households, I suppose. But there was still this emphasis even there on you, you get educated.

01:15:19

Like you, you make sure your summers, you're going to be doing summer school.

01:15:24

You're going to be, what are you going to be? You're going to be a doctor. You're going to be a lawyer. You're going to be something professional, a businessman.

01:15:30

That's how they are. That's how, yeah. Even in the, in the Hasidic communities, you know, I'm, I'm listening.

01:15:36

I'm going there. This family's there for, cause they'll come up for the summers, you know, and I'm listening to them and their dad is, is on the phone about selling watches in times square, you know?

01:15:46

And that's like vacation. I'm thinking that's not my vacation, but that's just their, their go getters like that.

01:15:53

And they, and they probably have, you know, they, they not probably, they have a, an in -group preference for their people. And yeah.

01:16:00

And that's when you have high achievers with strong in -group preferences, obviously you're going to have influence.

01:16:07

And anyway, I, I would like to like, like that for Christians. I think that's my thought is like, I want Christians to be high achievers and have a strong.

01:16:14

Absolutely. John, I got to tell you this story. Some of my Jewish professors, they would say to me, they'd get, you know, one of the things he goes, it's caused the trouble is that we sometimes getting our own group and we stay too insular and, and so forth that they,

01:16:30

I really appreciate the way they can self -criticize, but I, you know, and I haven't said it in this though, but that being insular, like you have is what's kept you as Jews for thousands of years.

01:16:44

If you intermarry and see, that's their problem. Once they intermarry, they just, they go away.

01:16:50

It's over. Yeah. And so I think that's why God put it in them. I'll tell you one more. I got to tell you one last story.

01:16:57

I was in Israel and I was with a guy I went to school with. He was, he was a student with me, but, and we, and he, he works at, he works in Israel.

01:17:07

And one day we were, we were in Jordan, the country of Jordan. And I looked at him and I said, you know, tell me if you can explain this.

01:17:15

Yeah. The Jews that you and I studied with and that we know real well, they're very liberal. I don't believe the

01:17:20

Bible, but when it comes to Israel, it's amazing how pro in other words, that land of Israel is just in them.

01:17:33

And he looked at me and again, he's not, he doesn't believe it. My friend, he's a

01:17:38

Christian guy, but he's not as close to his concern as I am. He looked at me and he goes, you know, it's like God put the land of Israel in their soul.

01:17:47

It's just part of them. I don't care if they're liberals. I mean, you have to be as crazy as Bernie Sanders. Okay. But if you're not that far, even the liberal

01:17:55

Jews who don't hold to anything. And I had liberal Jews that did not believe the Bible at all, but they would be like,

01:18:01

I want to go live in Israel. It's like, God just put that in them. What I see going on today.

01:18:08

I really do believe we're seeing God work in very interesting ways.

01:18:15

Among the Jews in Israel, outside of he's bringing the Jews back to the land of Israel. Cause I mean, they they're fleeing

01:18:21

Europe. And they're going to be fleeing America pretty soon. I mean, this new mayor of New York city, you better believe there's going to be a

01:18:32

Jewish exodus. Yeah. The left elements of the left and the right are both.

01:18:38

That's one thing they can unite on. But even I was reading, man, I said, we didn't have much time, but I just kept it going.

01:18:44

Cause it's interesting. There was a poll I was reading the other day. I forget who put it out.

01:18:50

It was on Jewish people, younger than 35, 35 and younger. How they are not nearly as pro is at least the

01:18:58

Israeli government. Like they are much more likely to go in these Palestinian protests. And so, so, you know,

01:19:05

I wonder if there's a divide there. They like the land of Israel, but they don't like, like Netanyahu doesn't get high marks with liberal

01:19:13

Jews in America. That's correct. If you, the Jews that I mostly studied with now, again,

01:19:18

I went to two Jewish schools. One, I had an Orthodox rabbi. He would be all Trump. I guarantee you, you know, he would be on the other side.

01:19:27

It's like the hysterics near me. Yeah. Other ones. And again, some of the professors I had were in concentration camps.

01:19:32

They had numbers on their arm. Yeah. I, I had some on crystal knock swimming out and getting,

01:19:41

I mean, I had interesting professors. Wow. They could tell you stories, but, uh,

01:19:48

Oh yeah. The, the, the liberal rabbis that say

01:19:53

I was, it was really a, uh, seminary for Judy, but they, they would train us for PhD stuff.

01:19:59

That's what we, you know? Right. And so they wouldn't like Netanyahu. Would they take out

01:20:08

Palestinian flags? No, they wouldn't do that. Uh, but they, would they be pro modern state of Israel?

01:20:18

Yes. But they would much prefer the, uh, old labor government. I don't know if that even exists anymore.

01:20:26

So they have, they're Marxists. Yeah. Israel's very divided right now.

01:20:32

Very divided between secular Jews and religious Jews. And it's not as if religious

01:20:37

Jews are real pro Christian, believe it or not, the secular Jews, even though they're not exactly thrilled with us, they're probably more pro

01:20:46

Christian than, I believe that. Then the, um, then the religious Jews over there, some of them are pretty hardcore and they're hard to deal with.

01:20:55

They'll spit on the Christians. And I see, yeah, probably not many, but I've seen, but yeah, they'll look at you like you're, you're, you're a, you're a

01:21:03

Gentile dog, but it's funny. The other Jews will say, well, they look at that the same way. So there, and again, they can't.

01:21:11

So Israel's very divided right now. So there's, and a matter of fact, my school used to send me that my liberal, uh, school, they would send me these emails.

01:21:22

They'd be furious about Israel because their rabbis are not even accepted as rabbis anymore because the hardcore, um, rabbis have gotten control under Netanyahu and they look at reform

01:21:36

Judaism as Gentiles. They're not even hardly considered real rabbis.

01:21:42

And so I was looking at a PC with a minister. So there's real, I mean, um, real division, almost civil war type division.

01:21:50

And I think one of the reasons by the way, and with this, I'll stop that Hamas attacked on October 7th was because they saw these divisions, these great protest, uh, going on in the streets between these two groups and said, they're weak.

01:22:06

This is our time to do it. Uh, so I really believe they saw the weakness in Israel because they really are divided.

01:22:13

Because think about the hardcore religious Jews don't even serve in the military. Most of them don't. Now, some do see that's causing real problems, real problems.

01:22:23

So Israel's got, they've got hard days ahead. They've got very hard days, uh, ahead because they are a very divided society right now between secular.

01:22:33

And by the way, the secular Jews have very little children. Religious Jews have big families. So you can see why

01:22:40

Netanyahu, if he can bring a coalition together, but he's going to be controlled by that more hardcore group.

01:22:47

You see. And so it's about Tel Aviv being the more liberal center. And then we're

01:22:53

Jerusalem. That's more of the hardcore in Jerusalem. Interesting.

01:22:58

All right. Well, yeah, we got to stop. It was interesting. I could talk forever about this, but thank you. And if people want to take a class with you, you can go to RussellTFuller .com,

01:23:07

sign up there for next semester, which is fall, I guess.

01:23:12

That's right. We'll start the first week of September. You can also email me if you just have questions.

01:23:20

And, um, um, you can, it's on my website, but Fuller985 at gmail .com.

01:23:28

And that 985 is a literal 985, but there's symbolical significance. Oh, is there really?

01:23:36

Okay. All right. Not really. I had to make up some numbers and there it's a quarterback number to a wide receiver number.

01:23:42

That's what it was. Anyway, I had to make up a number. So there is, there is some significance to 985.

01:23:50

So Fuller985 at gmail .com. Uh, and again, if you just want to start the course, see if it's for you, you can do that.

01:23:59

And then you can decide whether you really want to do it. But by the way, let me just tell you this. There's no requirements. This is just for people who want to study.

01:24:06

These are for self motivated students. So there's no exam. I don't call on you in class.

01:24:12

This is, this is not the normal college type class. So don't feel any pressure. You're not going to be embarrassed.

01:24:19

You're not going to be called on answer this question. Did you read this? No, you're just going to hear me talk.

01:24:24

And then I might ask, answer some questions from, from the people in class at the end of class.

01:24:29

And that's it. So don't feel like, Oh, I'm not ready for this. You are ready for this. So, and if you want to come just for a few weeks, decide if you want to take it or not, you just let me know.

01:24:39

We can make it work and we can fit all budgets, by the way, all budgets. I want you to know that. So again, you don't sound very

01:24:47

Jewish. Yeah, that's right. That's right. But anyway, John, thanks for having me.

01:24:53

Thank you. To be with you. And so again, thank you very much. Appreciate it.