August 13, 2024 Show with Dr. Gerald R. McDermott on “A New History of Redemption: The Work of Jesus the Messiah through the Millenia”

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August 14, 2024

00:03: Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer
00:10: George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend
00:16: Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,
00:23: Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
00:31: Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
00:38: Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
00:50: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
00:58: And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,
01:09: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet
01:14: Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.
01:20: This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 13th day of August, 2024.
01:29: Before I introduce my guest and our topic of the day, I want to remind our listeners, if you are a man in ministry leadership, you are invited to the next free, biannual
01:42: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastors Luncheon, which will be held Thursday, October 10th, 11 a .m.
01:49: to 2 p .m., at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, which is
01:55: Perry County, Pennsylvania, and we're going to be featuring for the very first time ever, as a keynote speaker,
02:02: Dr. Joe Boot, who is a prolific author, conference speaker, and founder and president of the
02:10: Ezra Institute. And not only is your admission free and your time to hear what will no doubt be an edifying and powerful message from Dr.
02:23: Boot, free, and your time of rest, relaxation, refreshment, fun, fellowship, and feasting, all free, on top of all of that, everybody in attendance will receive a very heavy sack of free, brand new books, personally selected by me and donated by generous
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03:27: So we hope to see you Thursday, October 10th, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania.
03:34: I also wanted to let you know that not long before the show began,
03:42: I was on the phone with my longtime friend, Phil Johnson, who is the executive director of John MacArthur's Media Ministry, grace to you.
03:52: As many of you know, Phil is battling blood cancer, and he is going through some treatments that, as he put it in his own words, make him feel like he was hit by a truck.
04:09: He has to have numerous injections in his stomach every week, and it's not chemotherapy, but I think it's called biotherapy or something like that, but he wanted me to give you an update that he is optimistic, waiting for a bone marrow transplant, which involves his own bone marrow, and he is very appreciative of the prayers of Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio listeners.
04:42: So continue to pray for my dear friend, Phil Johnson. We look forward to having
04:50: Phil back on the program, and he can let us know what
04:55: God has taught him perhaps during this trial in his life, which is no doubt a frightening trial.
05:02: But today, I am having a first -time guest on the program. I always love having first -time guests on Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio.
05:11: His name is Dr. Gerald R. McDermott, who served for five years as the
05:17: Anglican Chair of Divinity at Samford's Beeson Divinity School and 26 years teaching undergraduates at Roanoke College in Virginia, and we are going to be addressing his latest book, his 25th book,
05:36: A New History of Redemption, The Work of Jesus the Messiah Through the Millennia, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio, Gerald McDermott.
05:49: Well, thank you so much, Chris. It's my privilege to be on your show. Well, praise God for that.
05:55: Well, as you know, as I related to you before the show, we have a tradition on Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio whenever we have a first -time guest.
06:05: We have that guest give a summary of his or her salvation testimony, which would include any kind of religious atmosphere in which they were raised, if any, and the kinds of providential circumstances our
06:19: Sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to himself and saved them, and we would love to hear your story.
06:27: Well, Chris, as I was telling you before we went on the air, you and I have somewhat of a similar background.
06:35: I was raised Roman Catholic up in the Northeast, Boston, New York, and Philadelphia. I went to a
06:41: Jesuit high school in New York City on the Upper East Side of Manhattan, and when
06:50: I was 18, a revival came to my parents'
06:56: Catholic church outside of Chicago. Huh. While I was still in high school,
07:01: I stayed to complete high school in New York City, and so hundreds of Catholics became born again, and this
07:19: Catholic church became a center for a revival, and many Protestants came and also got turned on to Jesus.
07:28: And it was the Catholic Charismatic Movement at the time, and that's where I had my first personal encounter with Jesus, despite having gone to Mass for 18 years and gone through theology class four times a week for four years at my
07:52: Jesuit high school in New York City. Now, I was at the time a freshman at the
08:02: University of Chicago, and so this was in the spring of my freshman year at the University of Chicago, so I changed my major from psychology to New Testament and early
08:14: Christian literature, joining the one other student in the whole college. The college had 2 ,000 students, and the grad schools at the university had about 100 ,000 had 4 ,000, and there were only two of us who were majoring in New Testament and early
08:32: Christian literature, and we took all of our classes in the major at the Divinity School at the
08:38: University of Chicago, which is probably the most anti -Christian place to study divinity in the country.
08:47: And I was thrown into classes, and plus I was a terrible stutterer, so I was thrown in, and I basically couldn't talk in public, and I was thrown into class with men in their 20s, 30s, and 40s.
09:01: There were no women in, you know, this was 1971. I started in 1970, and with men in their 20s, 30s, and 40s, and it was post -Bultmania, you know, and the theology that I was taught in these classes was even to the left of Bultman.
09:28: So I, you know, by the grace of God, I completed the major.
09:35: I completed my bachelor's degree, and it really was a trial of fire with liberalism, and I discovered,
09:45: I got into intervarsity Christian fellowship at the university, started going to a
09:52: Baptist church there in Hyde Park, and then when I graduated,
09:59: I joined a Christian commune, and it was with Baptist theology, basically, charismatic.
10:14: I met my wife there, and we got married, and we spent our first year of marriage on the border of Mexico, serving in a little
10:26: Christian commune on a farm just 12 miles from the
10:33: Mexican border at the bottom of the Rio Grande Valley, so way, way down at the bottom of Mexico, and then, and I ran their little
10:42: Christian school, and then after that, we went up, so from the tropics to the
10:49: Arctic, we went to Fargo, North Dakota, where this same group called
10:54: Daystar had bought an old hotel in downtown Fargo, and 200 of us lived in community,
11:02: Christian community there, and I also got involved in running the Christian school, and then my wife and I left the charismatic communes, and we started a
11:15: Christian school in Moorhead, Minnesota, which is right across from Fargo, North Dakota, and that's still going strong today, big, big school,
11:24: K through 12 mil, and then after three years of running that new independent
11:32: Christian school, I left to pursue a PhD at the
11:38: University of Iowa, and while, and I was there five years full -time doing a
11:46: PhD in Jewish and Christian thought and did my dissertation on Jonathan Edwards, his public theology, which became my first book, and during that time,
11:57: Chris, you might be happy to know that I became a Baptist preacher, and so I was preaching
12:08: Baptistic theology and preaching against all those crazy Anglicans and all sorts in sacraments, which are really only ordinances, and so I was a
12:23: Baptist preacher for five years there, and then at the end of my PhD, after five years at Iowa, I got a job at Roanoke College and taught there for 26 years, as you mentioned, and while there,
12:47: I became an Anglican, and that was about 35 years ago
12:52: I became an Anglican, and over the course of time became an Anglican priest, first an
12:58: Episcopal priest with the illusion of converting the
13:04: Episcopal church to something that was Orthodox, but after a while, I was dispelled of that utopian vision.
13:12: You viewed yourself as a modern -day Martin Luther, I'm assuming. Yes. Except in an
13:19: Episcopalian context. Yes, in the Episcopal context, trying to save the
13:25: Episcopal church. A whole bunch of us evangelicals back then were trying to do that, but we soon discovered it was a losing effort, and so I switched my credentials to the
13:35: Anglican Church of North America, which had broken away from the
13:40: Episcopal church because of its heresies over marriage and sexuality, among other things.
13:48: So I'll stop there, that's a little...
13:53: Well, I would love to hear a little bit about the commune.
13:58: What exactly was going on in the commune? Did it resemble anything that might be considered cultic as far as restrictions, freedoms of entering and leaving?
14:16: I don't know of anyone else who has, that I'm aware of anyway, that has been in a
14:23: Christian commune. Was it theologically Orthodox and so on? Tell us more about that.
14:30: It was basically theologically Orthodox. It wasn't cultic in any of those senses where, you know, you were not allowed to leave and so forth.
14:46: You know, it had its theological problems as I look back, but nothing cult -like, and I'm thankful for those years there.
14:54: I learned much, and it was kind of fun because there were so many of us who were in our 20s and we were married couples and having kids, and we were all doing it together.
15:05: We had no money. It was the kind of community that said we should not ask for money, which looking back,
15:20: I'm glad for that because it taught us really to trust the Lord for finances. Now, the one at the bottom of Texas, down by the
15:33: Mexican border, it was a big farm with 400 orange and grapefruit trees and cows and pigs and chickens, and we ministered to missionaries going down to and coming up from Mexico.
15:52: So that was our primary purpose, to give them some
15:57: R &R. And the hotel up in Fargo, we were there as a witness in downtown
16:04: Fargo, but mostly we put on conferences for unbelievers and also for believers in all sorts of topics to help them to go deeper, and we provided refuge for a lot of people back in the 70s who were going through alcohol abuse, drug abuse, family breakdown, a lot like today, and they would come and stay with us and get their lives back together.
16:38: But a lot of the people in the hotel went out and worked full -time jobs to bring money in.
16:46: My job was to work in the school and help run their school. Well, you've already mentioned that you had arrived in your theological journey as an
16:58: Anglican, although I may be getting teary -eyed that you left my fellow
17:04: Baptist background. But can you tell us what kind of an
17:11: Anglican you are? Because as you know, Anglicanism is multifaceted from the good and the bad and the ugly, and there are those that are
17:24: Anglo -Catholic, there are those that are very rigidly Arminian, and there are those that are strongly theologically
17:32: Reformed, some of whom have very little difference than my own beliefs as a
17:39: Reformed Baptist, and those are typically men who adhere to the 39
17:45: Articles of Religion. So where are you in the spectrum of Anglicanism? Well, first of all, the first thing
17:54: I'll say is that Anglicanism is divided right down the middle as every other church in the world is.
18:01: You know, Chris, Baptists are divided down the middle between Progressives and what we would call
18:08: Orthodox, right? Catholics are divided down the middle between the
18:16: Progressives and the Orthodox, so too the Reformed, you know, look at PCUSA.
18:22: So too Anglicanism. On the far left in the super Progressives is the
18:30: Church of England and the Episcopal Church. You know, we've been there, we've done that, we're moving on.
18:39: So on the Orthodox side, and these days, well, in the
18:44: Anglican world, well, so too in the Baptist world and so forth, we tend to define
18:52: Orthodoxy as anti -progressive on marriage and sexuality, first and foremost, right?
18:57: We don't believe in gay marriage, and we don't believe in all the crazy pansexualities out there that are promoted by all sorts of Christians and all these different progressive sides of their churches.
19:12: So I'm in the Anglican Church, North America. The acronym is
19:17: ACNA, and as I said before, we split off from the Episcopal Church and started back in about, okay, what year was that?
19:32: I want to say 2008, but I'm probably wrong. So those of us in the
19:46: Anglican Church of North America, and also GAFCOM, the Global Fellowship of Anglicans centered in Africa, where a majority of Anglicans live today, far more than in the
20:00: Global North, and in what's called the Global South Anglican Fellowship.
20:14: Now, I told you I was a stutterer, and I still am a stutterer. And in fact, one of my books is called
20:20: Famous Stutters, 12 Famous Stutterers from Moses to Marilyn Monroe.
20:28: Oh yeah, she was a terrible stutterer to the day she died.
20:36: Yes, and just a little aside, Chris, when Hollywood first realized that this
20:45: Marilyn Monroe, her real name was Jean something, was going to be big for them, but they also realized that she had a terrible stutter, and they sent her to a speech therapist at Hollywood.
20:59: And the speech therapist said, Marilyn, this is what you have to do. You have to, whenever you speak, you have to slow down and speak in a real breathy manner.
21:11: Let that become your breathy trademark. And that's, of course, how
21:18: Marilyn Monroe spoke, and that was because of her stuttering therapy, her speech therapy.
21:27: So on the Orthodox side of marriage and sexuality, we
21:37: Anglicans are basically divided into two main groups. The first group are what are called
21:46: Reformation Anglicans, and the second group are what I call Reformed Catholic Anglicans.
21:53: Now the Reformation Anglicans are focused on basically three decades in the 16th century, and Thomas Cranmer is their theologian.
22:03: Yes, one of my heroes as well. And they say that all of Anglicanism goes back to those three decades, and they tend to be much more evangelical.
22:24: So for instance, they reject things like baptismal regeneration. They reject the real presence of the body and blood of Christ on the communion table.
22:38: They will talk about a spiritual presence. They believe in the authority of the individual to interpret the
22:47: Bible. But of course, they accepted 39 articles as we do also.
22:55: Now those of us on the Reformed Catholic side of Anglicanism, we look at not just three decades in the 16th century, but we say that Anglicanism is 2 ,000 years old.
23:08: It did not start in the 16th century, that there's always been a distinctively
23:13: English way that in fact for hundreds of years before the 16th century was anti -Rome, that always had a hard time with Rome.
23:28: But the distinctively English way of being Catholic, we look at the first millennium of the undivided church and the teachings of the fathers.
23:40: And we talk not about the authority of the individual to interpret the
23:47: Bible, but that we should read the Bible at the feet of the fathers, and we should learn from the fathers the patristic consensus how to interpret the
23:57: Bible. So we do teach baptismal regeneration, and we do believe in the real body and the real blood of Christ on the communion table or on the altar, in, with, and under the bread and the wine.
24:16: Just like the Lutheran tradition. Very similar to, not identical to, but very similar to.
24:24: And we look at Cramer as a brilliant liturgist, but not the foremost
24:38: Anglican theologian. In the 16th century, Richard Hooker was the premier
24:50: Anglican theologian of the English Reformation. And, well, we're going to be entering into the discussion on your book that is the highlight of our program today,
25:09: A New History of Redemption. And we are going into our first commercial break right now.
25:14: If anybody would like to join us with a question for my guest, Jerry McDermott, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.
25:25: Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. And this first commercial,
25:31: I'm sure that my guest, Jerry, is going to immediately recognize the brother in Christ doing the voiceover for it, because he's already told me before the show that he is a mutual friend of my very dear friend
25:48: Roger Salter, a Reformed Anglican in Birmingham, Alabama. And he was kind enough to provide the voiceover for this advertiser that you're going to be hearing in a matter of seconds.
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36:02: Gerald R. McDermott, and we are going to be discussing his new book,
36:08: A New History of Redemption, The Work of Jesus the Messiah Through the Millennia. And let me just read a couple of endorsements, very powerful endorsements, one of which is written by someone who's been a guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio a number of times,
36:28: Dr. Carl Truman of Grove City College. McDermott is well known as a
36:34: Jonathan Edwards scholar. Now he has stepped into the role of updating the great theologian's work by offering his own account of the history of redemption, but this is no mere rehash of Edwards.
36:48: Instead, McDermott's work, I'm sorry, McDermott works to bring out the astounding beauty of redemption, a much neglected category in Protestantism for a new generation, a very encouraging volume.
37:03: And also, Oz Guinness, whose name should not be unknown to most of our listeners, audacious, sweeping, magisterial, and highly distinctive at a moment in history when understanding the global is essential.
37:18: McDermott gives us both a deep history and a wide -ranging global view of God's restoration of the world that expands our minds and enriches our faith.
37:28: Fascinating reading. And there are many other commendations from prestigious individuals as well.
37:37: But the title, as I just read before, is A New History of Redemption.
37:44: And sometimes the word new, when in connection to theology and an understanding of scripture in general, can greatly concern, alarm, and even frighten
37:53: Christians from my background of staunch confessional Calvinism and pneumatological cessationism.
38:00: So can you explain your use of the word new in your title so that many of the theological kinfolk that I have listening might be put more at ease?
38:12: Sure, Chris. Jonathan Edwards, well, people who are familiar with Jonathan Edwards know that he gave a famous sermon series on the history of redemption in 1739 that was later published after he died as A History of Redemption.
38:35: That was the title of it. And it's in the, I have the 26 published print volumes of the works of Jonathan Edwards on my shelf behind me.
38:46: And this is volume nine. And it's a much -read, much -cited book in the corpus of Jonathan Edwards' books,
38:59: A History of Redemption. Now, Jonathan Edwards was intending to revise it and turn it into a major summa, such as Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica.
39:20: And Jonathan Edwards' goal, his intent, the aim of his life, and he wrote about it in the last second of his life, was to take the history of redemption and just use those sermons as an outline for a future major work that would incorporate all world cultures, all world history, all the world religions, to show how through all of that mess and incredibly complex and many times dark history of the world, starting from Eden, in fact, he was a
40:10: Reformed theologian. I think the greatest of all Reformed theologians. He was a Calvinist. And therefore, starting before the creation in the
40:18: Councils of Eternity, Jesus was acting as Messiah, redeeming the world, all the way up until the
40:31: Eschaton, the new heavens, the new earth. Now, Jonathan Edwards never got to do what he was hoping to do.
40:40: Died at a young age. He died at his intellectual prime, the age of 54, before his 55th birthday.
40:50: And you know what he died of, Chris? That's something to do with the vaccine, I know. He died of the side effects of a vaccine.
40:57: I always like to say that, especially post -COVID. He died of the side effects of a vaccine.
41:04: So... Was that for smallpox or...? Yes. Okay. Yes. So, in my hubris,
41:15: I decided to finish what Edwards was not able to finish.
41:21: And so, this book, as you know, because you've got a copy of it and you've read it, you know it goes through all the history of the world.
41:34: Well, not all the history of the world, not every aspect of every part of the history of the world, but it goes through biblical history, starting with the creation and the plans for the creation, and goes all the way up through Old Testament history, all the way through the last 2 ,000 years of church history.
41:52: And then it spends the last few chapters talking about the Eschaton, the final judgment, what that's going to be like, the new heavens, the new earth.
42:00: Well, what are they? And whether or not there's a millennium. And as you know, well, you were probably happy with what
42:11: I wrote about the millennium. So, now you asked if, Chris, you asked in your question about his staunch confessional
42:24: Calvinism and pneumatological cessationism. Now, Edwards, and you probably know this, because as a
42:33: Reformed Baptist, you probably know a lot about Jonathan Edwards, that he was an infralapsarian, he was not a superlapsarian.
42:45: And Michael McClymon and I put out a giant book published by Oxford University Press about 12 years ago,
42:57: The Theology of Jonathan Edwards, about 800 pages. And we cover in much detail his,
43:08: I would say every aspect of his theology, including the debate between superlapsarianism and infralapsarianism.
43:18: And we write, in fact, I wrote that chapter, that he was an infralapsarian. In other words, he did not believe that God's first decision, logically, of course, all of God's decisions for the future of the world were made in eternity outside of time.
43:37: And so there's no temporal sequence, but there's a logical sequence that Reformed theologians have always written about.
43:45: And Jonathan Edwards wrote quite a bit about the logical sequence of his steps in thinking through the history of redemption and thinking through the history of creation, and even thinking about the idea of creating intelligent beings known as angels and human beings.
44:08: And so he said, in disagreeing with superlapsarians, that God did not make an initial decision to consign a good portion of his future human creations to hell, and a good portion of his future human creations to heaven.
44:30: No. Logically, so he did not start by damning some to hell.
44:36: But in the order of the decrees, and those who are
44:41: Reformed in your audience know about the divine decrees. In the logical order of his decrees,
44:47: God determined first to shine forth his glory and communicate his goodness.
44:53: That was his first decision in the logical order of his decrees. Then his decrees of evil, and that's actually, those are
45:05: Jonathan Edwards's words, his decrees of evil to punish the wicked, were after, logically, his decrees to create all human beings and to give them permission to sin.
45:21: And it was logically only after he saw that most would depart from him and reject his offer of salvation that he issued his decrees about damnation, but for the purpose of his glory.
45:42: Not because he gloried in damnation, but because he gloried in his own glory.
45:49: So now even infralapsarians, even taking what you are describing the view to be, they are not those that are part of a heretical movement that is in existence today, where God does not know the future.
46:14: This didn't come as some kind of surprise to God. Oh, of course not. No, this is all his, these are all his decrees in eternity.
46:26: So he knows everything about the future. He's creating the future.
46:32: So no, no, that's that, those, those, those folks, open theists, they're known as the heretical group.
46:43: Yeah. Yeah. Open theists are the furthest thing from reformed Calvinists.
46:49: All reformed Calvinists believe that God has omniscience, which means he knows everything and, and that includes the future.
46:57: So, so Edwards, you know, just to finish that thought, wrote that God desires the, the conversion of the reprobate of, of all reprobates.
47:13: And he laments their obstinacy. Now he knows that they will be obstinate and they will reject his offer of salvation.
47:21: And he laments that Now, and Edwards goes on to say in commenting on Ephesians 1 .5,
47:30: that, that, that God predestined all for his good pleasure.
47:36: He says, God's good, good pleasure in his decrees was rational, not arbitrary.
47:46: Now, now we don't know this side of heaven.
47:53: This side of eternity, what the reasons were for damning some, well, we know what his reasons for damning were sin, sin and, and decisions by the damned to reject
48:09: God and his good offer of truth, beauty, and goodness. But, but we don't know his reasons for, for choosing some for, um, um, for election or salvation, but they were not arbitrary at Edwards said.
48:26: Now, now many hyper Calvinists and, and super lapsarians will suggest, or even say that they were absolutely arbitrary.
48:36: Uh, that was not Edwards. Now on pneumatological cessationism, you asked
48:45: Chris, uh, well, there's no cessation of the Holy spirit because Edwards is, is a thorough theologian of the
48:54: Holy spirit. And he's known for that, but of the charismatic gifts.
49:00: Yes. He did believe in the cessation of the charismatic gifts, uh, with the close of the apostolic age.
49:08: Yes. Okay. And, uh, I know that the role of Israel and redemptive history is at the core of this 25th book of yours, uh, which, um, makes the release of this volume very timely because as you know, and anybody listening who watches television knows we're living in a day, uh, when very recently antisemitism has become extremely popular, especially among college age folks who have horrified onlookers globally, as we witnessed their public protests, which seemed to mimic the rhetoric of Islamic extremists and even neo -Nazi rallies.
49:49: But this new work of yours is so thoroughly researched. I assume it was already in the process of development years before it recently came into print.
50:00: What originally compelled you to put pen to paper on this topic? Well, this is sort of the culmination of my whole career.
50:07: It is my 25th book. And I gathered together any threads that I was spinning out over the previous 24 books, except the one on stuttering.
50:17: So this could be rightly called your magnum opus. I'm assuming. Yes, yes it is.
50:22: And, but, uh, in terms of actually thinking through what I was going to write, it's been over the last 10 years and particularly the last, it, it took about five years to actually write.
50:36: Um, but you know, in terms of it, it, it, it, it, it, in terms of Israel, Chris, I caught myself there.
50:45: Um, uh, you're actually right. There's global antisemitism and particularly focused on the
50:52: Gaza war. And, uh, now Hezbollah and Iran and the false charges of, of genocide by, by the
51:02: Israelis, by the IDF, totally, totally false. Um, I had a wake up call about 25 years ago.
51:10: I was a replacement theologian until then. I was what's called a super sessionist until then.
51:18: I thoroughly, I loved NT Wright in all of his scholarship. And by the way, in the meantime,
51:24: I've gotten to know Tom, right. And he's a friend and he's a godly man. Uh, but I totally disagree with him on Israel and I had, but, but I had read everything he had read, uh, he had written, um, uh, in, in, in his scholarship.
51:42: And, you know, he's done many series on, uh, on history of the new
51:48: Testament and Paul and so forth. And I bought it all. Uh, he had totally persuaded me and he's, you know, a lot of your listeners know he's probably the single most influential biblical scholar in the world today, bar none.
52:07: He, he, he is a huge influence on Roman Catholic scholars today and Roman Catholic theologians.
52:12: They read NT Wright and he had persuaded me. Um, but about 25 years ago,
52:20: I had a wake up call and I started, uh, and it came in sort of a humiliating way.
52:27: I was leading a tour of Israel and my guide who was a PhD student at Hebrew university in Jerusalem would very politely and privately asked me after I'd given my lectures on, on, at various biblical sites and explain meaning of the biblical text at this point in the meaning of the biblical text.
52:47: At that point, he started to say, Dr. McDermott, because he had read some of my previous books and you sit and, and privately and very humbly, he, he would say, have you read thus and so?
53:02: Gee, I know I've, I've never heard of that scholar. Uh, have you read this other book?
53:08: No, I never heard of that book. Uh, have you read these series of articles by such and such and such?
53:14: And I said, gee, no, I'm, I was not aware of them. And so over the course of the next few years,
53:22: I read, which lead, which led me to read more and more and more and go deeper and deeper.
53:28: And so anyway, um, um, I came to, um, to reject my previous theology of supersessionism, which basically is the idea that the
53:44: Gentile church has superseded a supersessionism has superseded, um,
53:50: Jewish Israel in God's affections. And can we pick up right where you left off? Cause we have to go to our midway break.
53:57: Yeah, sure. And, uh, don't go away folks. We'll be right back. It's such a blessing to hear from iron sharpens iron radio listeners from all over the world.
54:16: Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show.
54:22: He really loves hearing interviewed Dr. Joe Moore craft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful iron sharpens iron radio listener here in a tie in County Kildare, Ireland, going back to 2005.
54:35: One of my very favorite guests on iron sharpens iron is Dr. Joe Moore craft. If you've been blessed by iron sharpens iron radio,
54:42: Dr. Moore craft and heritage Presbyterian church of coming Georgia are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.
54:51: Heritage Presbyterian church of plumbing is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.
54:57: Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards. And Dr.
55:03: Joe Moore craft is the author of an eight volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the
55:08: Hanover Presbytery built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great
55:18: Protestant reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone,
55:29: Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the triune God that continues in eternity.
55:35: For more details on heritage Presbyterian church of coming Georgia, visit heritage Presbyterian church .com
55:41: that's heritage Presbyterian church .com or call 6 7 8 9 5 4 7 8 3 1.
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59:53: Hello, my name is Anthony Uvino, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corum, New York, and also the host of the reformrookie .com
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01:06:13: and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from solid ground.
01:06:19: Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And let me briefly highlight some books, particularly because we may have more
01:06:31: Anglicans than we normally do listening today because of my guest being an Anglican.
01:06:37: Stephen H. Ting was a 19th century Episcopalian pastor in New York City at the time pastoring the
01:06:48: Episcopal Church of St. George's in Manhattan, and he was a 39 articles man, and he wrote the book
01:06:55: Lectures on the Law and Gospel available from Solid -Ground -Books .com,
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01:07:12: I fell in love with this book, called The Christian Pastor. And not long ago,
01:07:20: I gave every man in attendance at my Iron Sharpens Iron Radio pastor's luncheon a free copy of The Christian Pastor, and the subtitle is
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01:07:37: Also, Thomas Garrett Isham, who is a biblically faithful Episcopalian, he wrote a book called
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01:07:54: And there are other books as well by Tom Isham, including
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01:08:28: Reformation and the Puritan era, and even authors in our modern day, like Dr.
01:08:35: James R. White, the Reformed Baptist author of Alpha Omega Ministries. So please go to Solid -Ground -Books .com
01:08:41: frequently and purchase generously. Always mention that you heard about them from Chris Orensen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
01:08:49: Before I returned to Gerald R. McDermott and our conversation on his book, A New History of Redemption, I just have a couple of things to remind you about.
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01:11:24: Go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click click to donate now. Last but not least, if you're not a member of a biblically faithful,
01:11:32: Christ -honoring, doctrinally sound church, no matter where you live on the planet Earth, I may be able to help you find a biblically faithful church, as I have done with many listeners spanning the globe in our audience, sometimes even finding churches within a couple of minutes from where the listeners live.
01:11:48: And that may be you too, if you are without a biblically faithful church home. So no matter where you live in the world, if you are spiritually homeless, send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com
01:11:59: and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Gerald R.
01:12:05: McDermott on our conversation today on his book, A New History of Redemption, The Work of Jesus, The Messiah Through the
01:12:14: Millennia. That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.
01:12:21: And before the break, you were talking about how while you were giving a tour in Israel, someone challenging you about reading other views that contradicted your own, that you referred to as replacement theology, being one who is an amillennial.
01:12:44: I've been accused of believing in replacement theology, but I do not use that term, nor do
01:12:49: I know or highly uphold with great esteem men who use that term.
01:12:58: But you were saying that you were beginning to question your views, and you could pick up the story where you left off.
01:13:09: Sure. We're on the air now, Chris. Yes. Yes. Yes. I was beginning to talk about supersessionism, which is another way of describing replacement theology.
01:13:21: You know, I'll stick with the term replacement theology, although this listener doesn't like the term.
01:13:29: Will that be me? Oh, oh, okay. Because people have accused me of being a replacement theologian, and I'm an amillennialist.
01:13:39: I do not believe that the current state of Israel is a direct fulfillment of biblical prophecy.
01:13:45: And I do have a great view of a high hope, a wonderful, glorious future for the
01:13:53: Jewish people to be restored to Christ and so on.
01:13:58: But replacement theology smacks of Gentiles replacing
01:14:04: Jews, which I don't believe, even though right now and for centuries,
01:14:11: Gentiles numerically have been larger in the church than Jews.
01:14:16: I don't necessarily believe that will always be the case. And I am not an endorser of Anglo -Israelism, which would,
01:14:27: I think, be more accurately called replacement theology, things like that. Yeah.
01:14:32: Well, Chris, you know, you and I might not be so far apart. First of all, this discussion of replacement theology or supersessionism and what's called post -supersessionism has nothing to do with the view of the millennium.
01:14:55: I happen to agree with you on the millennium, but here's how I define, and let's use the word supersessionism, right?
01:15:02: Okay. Here is the way that I define supersessionism, and it's based on the word superseded, as I said before the break, that the
01:15:12: Gentile church has totally replaced Jewish Israel in God's affection.
01:15:19: So God no longer loves Jewish Israel at all unless they accept Jesus as Messiah.
01:15:26: The Jewish people who are outside of the Messianic Jews are no longer
01:15:31: God's chosen people. That's the first part, the people. The second part is the land, that while the land was holy in the
01:15:40: Old Testament, after 30 AD, when Jesus died and rose from the dead, that land is no longer holy.
01:15:55: As Tom Wright has written, it's not a holy land.
01:16:02: It's only the whole world that might be called holy. God's focus changed from that little strip of land the size of New Jersey on the land is no longer special.
01:16:24: It's no longer holy. That's the second part. And by the way, I do not believe that the current state of Israel is a direct fulfillment of prophecy.
01:16:36: Now, I do believe, and all Christian Zionists do, that the massive return of Jews to the land, starting in the 18th century, not just the end of the 19th or beginning of the 20th century, but starting in the 18th century, the massive return of Jews from the four corners of the planet back to the land is a fulfillment of prophecy.
01:16:57: And I show this in this book. Now, Jonathan Edwards, to get back to Jonathan Edwards, I was delighted to discover after I had my
01:17:15: Copernican revolution, I might call it, in terms of my thinking on the relationship between the church and Israel and God and the
01:17:24: Jews, I was delighted to discover when I went back to the history of redemption that Jonathan Edwards also, and his other writings outside the history of redemption, was a
01:17:36: Christian Zionist. And on both these points, on both the people and also the land, Jonathan Edwards believed that the
01:17:43: Jewish people, and even those who have not accepted Jesus, are still the chosen people. Now, does that mean that every
01:17:49: Jew is going to be saved? No, no. Paul makes it very clear in Romans 9 that not all who are in Israel are of Israel, and he talks about the remnant, those who believe in Jesus, okay?
01:18:03: But second, Jonathan Edwards also taught back in the 18th century when the Ottoman Empire was totally in control of the land, and it looked hopeless for the
01:18:16: Jews. He wrote in his notebooks and also in the history of redemption, someday the
01:18:22: Jews are going to return to the land in huge numbers, and they're going to set up a polity there, a political system, and they will be a nation on the land once more.
01:18:38: I go, whoa, Jonathan Edwards was saying that. Now, so, those are the two sides of my version of Christian Zionism called the
01:18:51: New Christian Zionism. That's one of the books I've published. It's called the New Christian Zionism, which is very different from dispensationalism.
01:18:59: We have nothing to do with dispensationalism. So, I'll stop there, and you probably want to ask some more questions.
01:19:08: Well, let me go to a listener question which is completely off topic, but I'll ask it just because it appears from the wording of his question that he is in your denomination of Anglicans, the
01:19:24: ACNA, and this is Ted in Moundville, Alabama. I wonder if your guest has any comment on the installation of our new bishop,
01:19:32: Stephen Wood. Is he likely to lead the ACNA in a biblical direction, and conversely, do you have any particular concerns about his leadership?
01:19:47: Well, you know, I know Steve Wood minimally. I know his views.
01:19:54: Look, he's a good man. He's been a very successful pastor. He is a good preacher.
01:20:01: He believes that the Bible is the Word of God, and he preaches the Bible as the
01:20:07: Word of God, and all that is extremely significant and wonderful. The ACNA, like most other denominations, are split right down the middle on the ordination of women, and we in the
01:20:22: Reformed Catholic camp are against the ordination of women. Those outside of our camp, most
01:20:32: Reformation Anglicans, do practice the ordination of women and believe in the ordination of women, at least to the diaconate.
01:20:44: Not the Reformed Anglicans that I am personally familiar with. Oh, right. Like Roger Salter would never in a million years would want that.
01:20:54: But most of those, you know, Ashley Null is their favorite theologian, and Ashley Null is in favor of the ordination of women.
01:21:03: Wow, I did not know that. I have interviewed Ashley on Thomas Kramer, and I didn't know he was an egalitarian.
01:21:10: Yeah, well, he wouldn't call himself an egalitarian, but he does believe in the ordination of women, and much of GAFCON, therefore, is practicing the ordination of women, but not the
01:21:24: Global South. So, you know, there's this deep fissure that runs through the
01:21:31: Anglican community on the ordination of women, and even those who are otherwise Orthodox.
01:21:39: So, let me put it this way. Steve Wood, Archbishop Wood, is facing this problem, and it's a huge problem, and it's something that I think needs much deeper theological discussion.
01:21:56: Now, I would point, and forgive me for being self -referential, and Chris, you run into this all the time when you interview theologians.
01:22:06: They're always talking about their books. So, I'm afraid
01:22:13: I'm going to follow in those ungodly steps, but I will refer your reader to a book that I just published in the last few months called
01:22:25: Deep Anglicanism, and I lay out my views on what the historic
01:22:31: Anglican view was, and everybody knows that before the 1970s, no one was ordaining women except Pentecostals, who had been doing it since the beginning of the 20th century, and maybe some of the
01:22:47: Nazarenes. Yeah, I believe John Wesley did in the 18th century. No, I don't think so.
01:22:55: I've been told by Nazarenes that he did. Maybe they're wrong. No, he might have prayed for them to be a catechist or, you know, something of that sort, but not as a full
01:23:13: Methodist priest or pastor. Okay. Now, I like John Wesley even more.
01:23:21: No, John Wesley held to historic orders, which no one until the 1970s, except for the
01:23:34: Pentecostals, as I said, and that was like yesterday, because that was the beginning of the 20th century. It was yesterday historically.
01:23:41: Jews and Christians, God calls, have always taught before the 1970s that God calls women to all sorts of ministries, but not that ministry, not to preside over the sacraments and not to run a church.
01:23:59: So that's, you know, that's my position. That is the position of all of us
01:24:05: Reformed Catholic Anglicans, and that's the position
01:24:10: I lay out in my book. Now, my book is about all sorts of things, not just that, but I do have a couple of chapters on that topic, and I would—and so your listeners, your listener who asked that question,
01:24:27: I might want to take a look at that book. Now, that book is at Amazon.
01:24:33: It's very expensive. It's a whopping $15. That's not really that expensive for hardcover books these days.
01:24:42: It's not hardcover. It's paper. Oh, I thought you were talking about your current book. I'm sorry. No, no, no.
01:24:48: Okay. I know this new book called Deep Anglicanism. Okay. Oh, by the way, Ted, you have, due to the generosity of Baker Publishing, you have won a free copy of A New History of Redemption by my guest,
01:25:04: Gerald R. McDermott. So please make sure you give us your full mailing address in Moundville, Alabama.
01:25:12: And let me read one more question before I return to a question of my own.
01:25:20: We have Stephanie, who is located in Bohemia, Long Island, New York, and Stephanie wants to know, have you ever heard of the
01:25:33: Christian ministry to the Jews called Christian Witness to Israel, which was founded in England centuries ago and even had
01:25:44: Charles Adams Spurgeon and Robert Murray McShane as board members and continues to this day, not only in the
01:25:51: United Kingdom, but in the United States? Well, I certainly know about Spurgeon. I have not heard of that particular ministry.
01:26:00: Oh, I've never heard of it. I also know about it, and I've had guests who represent it on.
01:26:06: I forgot to introduce you to them. Sure. It's called Christian Witness to Jews?
01:26:12: No, Christian Witness to Israel. Oh, yes. I've not heard of that particular one.
01:26:17: Wow. Okay. Well, my friend Stephen Atkinson is the director of the
01:26:23: North American branch, and I'll put you in touch with him. Sure. And by the way,
01:26:29: Stephanie, please give us your full mailing address in Bohemia, Long Island, because you've also won a free copy of A New History of Redemption, thanks to Baker Publishing's generosity.
01:26:40: And also, our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com,
01:26:46: will be shipping the book out to you. Well, going back to my own questions before we squeeze any more listener questions toward the end, this view of Edwards, this
01:27:00: Christian Zionist view, I know that Edwards is considered the last
01:27:07: American Puritan by many, and there were obviously Puritans in America and in England that preceded him.
01:27:14: Was he basically representing the views of Christian Zionism that existed before him amongst
01:27:26: Puritans, or was this new ideas from his gleaning of exegesis from Scripture itself?
01:27:38: Well, Chris, that's a very good question. I'm glad you asked that, and you probably know the answer having read the book.
01:27:48: First of all, I'll say that Jonathan Edwards has been called the last
01:27:54: Puritan, but he was not a Puritan per se. He departed from Puritanism in several respects, one of which was he was a revivalist, and generally the
01:28:04: Puritans were not revivalists. And he was the greatest theologian of revival, by the way, for all of your listeners in the history of the
01:28:12: Christian church. He has written more about the theology of revival than anyone else in the history of the
01:28:17: Christian church. And something else that makes him stand out is he was the number one theologian of beauty in the history of Christian thought, and I hope
01:28:29: I get to that before the end of the program today. But back to your question, Calvin was a supersessionist.
01:28:36: Calvin said that the Jews are no longer the chosen people.
01:28:42: They lost that status because the majority of Jews in the first century rejected
01:28:51: Jesus as Messiah, and so therefore the land is no longer the holy land.
01:28:58: And he interpreted, as all your Reformed listeners know, he interpreted all of the prophecies in the
01:29:06: Old Testament about the future of Israel as referring to the Gentile church.
01:29:12: And the Puritans, starting in the 16th century, they departed from Calvin on that.
01:29:20: They said, yes, look, we're Calvinists, and we love John Calvin, and we love the
01:29:26: Institutes, and we love his many, many commentaries on the scriptures, but this part of it we cannot buy.
01:29:35: And the Reformation biblical hermeneutic of starting with the plain sense of scripture, yes, there are spiritual senses, but you start with the plain sense in your interpretation of the
01:29:45: Bible. When we use the plain sense, it is clear that while some
01:29:50: Old Testament prophecies clearly are talking about the future church, there are other
01:29:57: Old Testament prophecies that clearly are not. They cannot be applied to the future
01:30:03: Gentile church, and they really only talk about Jewish Israel.
01:30:09: And so in the 16th century, it was the Puritans who started, who broke with Calvin on this, and they said that as we read the
01:30:18: Old Testament prophecies, the Jews in the future will return to the land, and they still are the chosen people.
01:30:25: I mean, they went to passages like Romans 11, 28, where Paul is referring to the
01:30:32: Jews, his brothers whom he's weeping about. He's lamenting they haven't accepted
01:30:38: Jesus. Now, of course, there were tens of thousands of Jews just in Jerusalem alone who had accepted
01:30:46: Jesus. That's in Acts 21. But Paul is still lamenting the fact that a majority of Jews, so at least 51%, had not accepted
01:30:58: Jesus. And in verse 28, he talks about them. He said they rejected the gospel, they are enemies of the gospel.
01:31:08: But he said, he used the present tense, they are still beloved.
01:31:15: For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable, cannot be revoked. And what's the calling of God?
01:31:22: God's calling of the Jews to be his people, unlike any other people on earth.
01:31:30: So Paul is saying clearly in verses 28 and 29 of Romans 11, that even though the majority of Jews have not accepted
01:31:40: Jesus yet, they still are God's chosen people. They're still beloved. Present tense, they are beloved.
01:31:47: And their calling as the chosen people is still in effect, has not been revoked.
01:31:55: And then in Acts 13, Luke says, he went to Antioch of Pisidia, that's in modern day
01:32:06: Turkey, and he preached in a synagogue. And Paul said the following, now this is starting in verse 19 of Acts 13.
01:32:21: He says, men of Israel and you who fear God, now you who fear
01:32:26: God are the Gentiles, the God fearers who were in all the synagogues all over the
01:32:31: Mediterranean world in the first century, because they recognized as soon as they went once on Saturday morning, that this was infinitely better than any
01:32:40: Greco -Roman religion they'd been raised in. So men of Israel and you who fear God, listen to me.
01:32:47: The God of this people, Israel, chose our fathers, and by that he means the patriarchs,
01:32:53: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and made the people great during their stay in Egypt, and with uplifted arm led them out of Egypt.
01:33:01: And after destroying seven nations in the land of Canaan, now that's the conquest, and Paul has shows no remorse about the conquest that the
01:33:11: Christian scholars today are beating their breasts about. Paul didn't beat his breast about the conquest of the seven
01:33:19: Canaanite nations. After destroying seven nations in the land of Canaan, he,
01:33:25: God, the God of Israel, gave them, the Jewish people, their land as an inheritance.
01:33:34: And the preachers of the 16th century said, whoa, and they found all sorts of other evidence when looking at the plain sense instead of the spiritual sense, all over the
01:33:44: New Testament, that God gave the land of Israel to the
01:33:51: Jews. So they broke with Calvin on that. They loved
01:33:58: Calvin otherwise, but they broke with Calvin on what we call today
01:34:04: Christian Zionism. Okay, well, let me ask you a question. Obviously, Christian Zionism is no different than any other system of thought in that it could be twisted and abused and used for false teaching.
01:34:27: And I don't know if you're familiar with John Hagee. I consider
01:34:33: John Hagee a heretic because he comforts Jews that have not come to Christ in believing that they are so beloved and special in the eyes of God that they don't even need to follow
01:34:50: Christ as their Messiah, their God, and their King. Now, do you share my concern that obviously the perpetual placement of the
01:35:03: Jews as a uniquely beloved and chosen people of God can lead to this kind of thinking?
01:35:13: Yes, Chris, look, all good teachings have been abused and are abused and will be abused.
01:35:19: And the teaching you're describing is called dual covenant theology, that the
01:35:28: Jews have one way to be saved and we Gentiles have a different way to be saved. I reject that.
01:35:34: Now, I don't know John Hagee personally. I went to his conference in Washington, D .C.
01:35:42: two weeks ago. It was very, very impressive. And he didn't teach that at all.
01:35:48: So I don't know if he believes that. Oh, he definitely does. I've heard him with my own ears. Well, I disagree with that.
01:35:56: Jews are not going to be saved simply by being Jews. And by the way, I also know personally Messianic Jews who are very disturbed by that teaching of Hagee.
01:36:06: Yes, yes. But so I certainly don't agree with that.
01:36:15: So, you know, there are Christian Zionists and there are Christian Zionists, just as there are Baptists and there are
01:36:20: Baptists, and there are Reformed and there are Reformed. There are many differences among them, right? So, so, yeah, no, no,
01:36:28: I don't. The dual covenant theology is absolutely unbiblical.
01:36:36: Paul's most extensive, his most mature discussion of the relationship between Israel and the church is
01:36:42: Romans 9 through 11. He writes this toward the end of his career in the letter to the
01:36:48: Romans, the closest thing we have to a systematic theology from Paul. This is decades after he writes
01:36:53: Galatians. This is his most mature thinking. And in chapters 9 and 11, he says that the
01:37:04: Jews are still God's chosen people. And he laments the fact that most of them have not accepted
01:37:11: Jesus. And then right in the middle, in chapter 10, right, right in the middle, he says that if you confess with your lips that Jesus is
01:37:22: Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
01:37:28: Right in the middle of these three chapters on Israel and church. So obviously he's saying that about his fellow
01:37:34: Jews. So a dual covenant theology is not biblical.
01:37:40: That's not the true Paul. And it's not the true Jesus either. Amen. Well, we have to go to our final break.
01:37:47: And if you have a question, please submit it immediately because we're rapidly running out of time. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.
01:37:55: ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.
01:38:01: Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages. I'm Dr.
01:38:11: Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.
01:38:20: Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the
01:38:30: Westminster Larger Catechism titled Authentic Christianity by Dr. Joseph Moorcraft.
01:38:37: It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.
01:38:48: Dr. Moorcraft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that congregation.
01:38:59: For details on the eight -volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com, westminstercommentary .com.
01:39:07: For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com,
01:39:15: heritagepresbyterianchurch .com. Please tell Dr. Moorcraft and the saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr.
01:39:24: Joseph Paipa of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sends you. I'm Dr.
01:39:36: Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,
01:39:47: Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.
01:39:54: It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim
01:40:11: Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.
01:40:18: I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.
01:40:27: For more information on Hope Reformed Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net that's hopereformedli .net
01:40:37: or call 631 -696 -5711 that's 631 -696 -5711.
01:40:48: Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.
01:41:05: James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know
01:41:10: I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.
01:41:18: And besides that, they feel so good. I'm so delighted I discovered Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding.
01:41:24: No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot. Jeffrey Rice of Post Tenebrous Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan.
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01:41:56: French tannery used to rebind a Reformation study Bible I used as a gift. The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome.
01:42:07: Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather, making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art.
01:42:17: For more details on Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding, go to ptlbiblerebinding .com.
01:42:25: That's ptlbiblerebinding .com. I'm Pastor Keith Allen of Linbrook Baptist Church, a
01:42:50: Christ -centered, gospel -driven church looking to spread the gospel in the southwest portion of Long Island, New York, and play our role in fulfilling the
01:42:58: Great Commission, supporting and sending for the spread of the gospel to the ends of the earth. We're delighted to be a part of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron radio advertising family.
01:43:09: At Linbrook Baptist Church, we believe the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the inspired
01:43:14: Word of God, inherent in the original writings, complete as the revelation of God's will for salvation and the supreme and final authority in all matters to which they speak.
01:43:26: We believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. This salvation is based upon the sovereign grace of God, was purchased by Christ on the cross, and is received through faith alone, apart from any human merit, works, or ritual.
01:43:43: Salvation in Christ also results in righteous living, good works, and appropriate respect and concern to all who bear
01:43:51: God's image. If you live near Linbrook, Long Island, or if you're just passing through on the
01:43:56: Lord's Day, we'd love to have you come and join us in worship. For details, visit linbrookbaptist .org.
01:44:03: That's l -y -n -brookbaptist .org. This is Pastor Keith Allen of Linbrook Baptist Church, reminding you that by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves.
01:44:15: It is the gift of God, not a result of words, so that no one may boast.
01:44:21: The Lord bless you in the knowledge of himself. Greetings, this is
01:44:40: Brian McLaughlin, president of the SecureComm Group and supporter of Chris Arnzen's Iron Shopping Zion radio program.
01:44:49: SecureComm provides the highest level of security systems for residential buildings, municipalities, churches, commercial properties, and much more.
01:45:00: We can be reached at securecommgroup .com. That's securecommgroup .com.
01:45:09: But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.
01:45:23: Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.
01:45:30: In the film Chariots of Fire, Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt
01:45:35: God's pleasure when he ran. He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God.
01:45:42: I sensed that same God -given pleasure when ministering the Word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.
01:45:49: That love starts with the news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a Savior who died for sinners and that God forgives all who come to Him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.
01:46:01: I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the
01:46:09: Bronx in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com.
01:46:18: That's nhpbc .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672.
01:46:27: That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's Word and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.
01:46:46: God bless you. Chris Arnzen here.
01:46:58: I am forever grateful to Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service for their generous financial support of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, but that's not the only reason
01:47:07: I love them. CVBBS .com carries the finest in theologically reformed literature from 16th century classics like Calvin's Institutes, 17th and 18th century
01:47:19: Puritan treasures like the works of Jonathan Edwards, 19th century volumes by the
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01:47:53: IRON. That's CVBBS .com, enriching minds and maintaining the theologically reformed influence of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio through their financial support.
01:48:05: Now shipping worldwide. And folks, please don't forget that this program is paid for in part by the law firm of Buttafuoco and Associates.
01:48:17: If you're the victim of a very serious personal injury or medical malpractice anywhere in the
01:48:23: United States, call my longtime dear friend Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law at 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, or visit his website at 1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com,
01:48:36: 1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com and please tell Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, that you heard about his law firm,
01:48:42: Buttafuoco and Associates from Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. I also want to remind you that my former church before I moved to Pennsylvania, Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York, is having their
01:48:59: Courageous Marriage Seminar Friday and Saturday, August 23rd and 24th, featuring as their keynote speaker, bestselling author
01:49:10: Dr. Joe Rigney. If you would like to register for this Courageous Marriage conference, go to gracereformedbaptistchurch .org,
01:49:22: gracereformedbaptistchurch .org. And let me remind you again, just as the commercial that you hear says in regard to the
01:49:32: New American Standard Bible, we just got the wonderful news that they've renewed their advertising contract with us.
01:49:40: So, it would really be helpful, especially if your church, if your pew bibles are tattered and falling apart, if you want to replace the pew bibles in your church, please consider seriously and prayerfully replacing those bibles with the
01:50:01: New American Standard Bible, especially if you love the show as well and want to assist in helping to keep the show on the air.
01:50:08: You can help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air by going to nasbible .com,
01:50:16: nasbible .com, which stands for New American Standard Bible, nasbible .com,
01:50:22: and order new bibles for the pews in your church and mention
01:50:28: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. That's a very important part of that. Mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. This will further ensure that the publishers of the
01:50:36: New American Standard Bible will continue renewing their advertising with us. That's nasbible .com,
01:50:42: and I want to thank Pike Lambeth and the fine folks at nasbible .com for renewing their advertising with Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
01:50:52: We are now back, and I want to read another listener question. Before we run out of time, let's see here.
01:51:02: We have Jack in Miami, Florida, and Jack wants to know, have you received any pushback from fellow
01:51:14: Anglicans over your eschatological views and particularly your views of Israel that might not be the common view amongst
01:51:24: Anglicans? Sure. There's always pushback when you propose anything that the majority of people haven't seen in the past, although there are more and more
01:51:47: Anglicans worldwide, particularly in the
01:51:57: Christian community. Chris, I'd like to return, if I could, to the main subject of the book, which really we haven't gotten to very much.
01:52:08: That is that Jesus has always been redeeming.
01:52:14: He didn't wait until after millennia of the creation had already transpired, of history had already transpired to start redeeming.
01:52:23: Jonathan Edwards taught, and I think he's right on this, and I make the argument biblically, that Jesus starts redeeming just after the fall in the garden, and that the story of Israel is at the heart of the story of redemption, and that you see
01:52:48: God's beauty. Jonathan Edwards is the paramount theologian of the beauty of God in the whole history of Christian thought, as I said.
01:52:57: If we are to see God's beauty, we will see it best through the story of redemption, and that we can see that beauty even in dark and dangerous times like ours today.
01:53:10: Therefore, if we can see the whole history of redemption, that's what
01:53:15: I try to lay out in this book. We can see the beauty of God, and we can have the peace of the
01:53:23: Lord and the joy of the Lord even in dark and dangerous days. Amen.
01:53:28: Well, I'd like you, since we're almost out of time, to now spend a few minutes just summarizing what you primarily want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners about this book before we go off the air.
01:53:43: Yeah, thank you, Chris. That God's beauty is best seen through the history of redemption, and that's why
01:53:52: I tried to finish what Jonathan Edwards started on this, because that was his conviction.
01:53:59: You know, Martin Luther said the primary Christian organ is the ear, and the quintessential
01:54:08: Christian experience is hearing the Word of God. Jonathan Edwards said, well, that's true, but there's more to it than that.
01:54:17: In fact, the primary Christian organ, said
01:54:24: Edwards, is the eye, and the quintessential Christian experience is seeing the beauty of God in redemption.
01:54:37: So, what I'd like to have etched, as you graphically put it, on the hearts and minds of our listeners today is that God's beauty and God's redemption can be seen today by looking at the history of redemption, even in times of great evil, and that God is always offering
01:55:04: His goodness and truth and His beauty to the world. So, John says in John chapter 1, he talks about the true light which enlightens every man, and I think that's in the
01:55:18: NASB. I think they correctly translated literally every man, not person, but man, and of course, it's a generic man for men and women, males and females.
01:55:30: So, God is constantly offering all human beings the grace, the
01:55:39: Eugenian grace, to say yes to Him, and when they say yes, they can see the beauty of redemption, and when they follow the history of redemption, that's where they can see the beauty of God.
01:55:53: Well, I want to thank you for providing such a fascinating discussion for us today, and I love having guests on that don't necessarily see exactly as I do, so we can have iron sharpening iron, as the title suggests, and I want to remind our listeners that this book that we have been talking about and also giving away,
01:56:24: A New History of Redemption, the Work of Jesus the Messiah Through the Millennia, by my guest,
01:56:29: Gerald R. McDermott, it is published by Baker Publishing Group, and if you want to find out more about the book, go to bakerpublishinggroup .com,
01:56:41: bakerpublishinggroup .com, and you can also purchase the book at cvbbs .com,
01:56:47: Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. If they don't have it in stock, just make sure that you mention that it is
01:56:54: A New History of Redemption by Gerald R. McDermott, published by Baker, and they will order it for you quickly, and they are very good at that, and I like to give them business whenever I can, since they obviously sponsor this program.
01:57:12: In fact, cvbbs .com is one of the primary sponsors of Volume Sharp and Zion Radio, but Gerald, before we go, do you have a personal website that you'd like to provide for yourself?
01:57:27: I know I used to, and they drove me off because I was too conservative. I don't have one anymore.
01:57:36: Well, if anybody wants to get in touch with Gerald, you can send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,
01:57:41: and I will forward it to him, and please, folks, don't forget that Iron Sharp and Zion Radio needs your financial support in a big way.
01:57:51: Go to ironsharpandzionradio .com, click support, then click click to donate now. That's ironsharpandzionradio .com,
01:57:59: click support, then click click to donate now, and once again, don't forget about the
01:58:05: Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island Courageous Marriage Conference, Friday and Saturday, August 23rd and 24th.
01:58:15: That will be held at Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York, and to register for that conference, go to gracereformedbaptistchurch .org,
01:58:23: gracereformedbaptistchurch .org, and once again,
01:58:29: I want to thank you, Gerald, for being such an exquisite guest. I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write in questions, and remember, folks, if you were sent in a question and you have not yet given me your mailing address, make sure you get me your mailing address so that cvbbs .com,
01:58:47: Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, can ship out your free copy of A New History of Redemption by Gerald R.
01:58:53: McDermott. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater