A Jehovah's Witness (Martin Smart) Attacks Reformed Theology

This is the dividing line The Apostle Peter commanded all Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence Your host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the

Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation and now with today's topic.

Here is James white And welcome to the dividing line. My name is James white and this is our regularly scheduled broadcast

We are live here on the dividing line today the last program of the year 2000 the year that everyone thought was going to mark the end of civilization as we know it

But of course it did not it may be 2001 that marks that if the economy keeps going the way it is, but No, y2k fears.

And in fact, we will not blame any technical difficulties that we have today on Y2k That would be fun to do but it really wouldn't work very well in point of fact, we're gonna be talking about a number of things today on the program and First I'd like to mention last evening.

We had a very interesting experience in prosopology on our Our worldwide chat channel.

We had a dialogue on Roman Catholicism. I got involved toward the end and Even though we had you know, we learned you know

It's a it's a learning process obviously Friday nights are probably not the best nights to be doing something like that We had what's called a major net split right in the middle of the dialogue which basically ends all of the discussion and That was due to the fact that Friday night is a very very very heavy usage time

So probably it'd be better if we're gonna do it in the evenings to do it during the the week sometime And in fact, it would probably be better to do it during the day

When there be significantly less net usage But it was an interesting dialogue and it was with that Dave Armstrong a

Roman Catholic Apologist and Tim Enloe and then I got involved toward the end had a little discussion with mr

Armstrong and we may do some things like that again in the future in fact there's all sorts of folks that I would like to get involved in being on this program and Dialoguing with me on a number of different issues.

For example right now I'm writing a co -authoring a book called the same -sex controversy with a very dear friend of mine

Jeff Neal and that of course is on the new homosexual apologetic and That of course will

I think result in a number of very interesting dialogues and discussions as well and an ever -increasing number of people who

Will not like me but that's sort of the way it goes when you address these various and sundry issues what

I'd like to do today and obviously if if I was a little bit better in my planning

I Would have the subject the first part of the subject of dividing lines today already on the website is the main article

I am working on an article and the article is on John chapter 15 and The specific use of John chapter 15 verse 2 by No, not an

Arminian No, not not by Norman Geisler. No, not not by Dave hunt

The use of Romans chapter 15 verse 2 to attack reform theology by a

Jehovah's Witness by the name of Martin smart Martin smart is going about the the

Internet these days Saying that Jesus's words and I will quote them for you

I'll be looking fairly closely at it every branch in me that does not bear fruit He takes away and every branch that bears fruit.

He prunes it so that may bear more fruit that that particular verse is obviously

Contradictory to reform theology and to quote -unquote Calvinism a Jehovah's Witness Attacking Calvinism.

Well does John 15 Contradict the teaching of the

Reformed Faith on the subject of salvation. We're gonna be looking at that in the first part today I do hope probably not today

Lord willing by Monday to have a new main article up on the web page when you bring up www .aomin

.org You will notice what I say Romans chapter 15 Well, it's so nice to have folks that correct me

John chapter 15 verses 1 we'll be looking at 1 through 8 Maybe 1 through 11 anyways

There's a the current main page article the article that you see on the on the website when you first go to aomin .org

That main article right now is an interesting one. If you haven't had a chance to Look at it on the subject of Catholic answers

There's also by the way If you have looked at it look down at the bottom of the article to the bottom of that page

You will find a little link there. I also threw in another article I didn't make the main page article, but just a brief little article that provides some interesting quotations in regards to the

Roman Catholic Church's teaching through history on the idea that there is no salvation outside the

Roman Catholic Church and what that used to mean and Now what it means today, in fact last evening

I used a I used a Nick in the channel Jan Huss Jan Huss as you may know was the

Evangelical Christian who was burned at the Council of Constance for being an evangelical

Christian and When I was talking with various Roman Catholics who came into the channel,

I would introduce myself. Remember me I'm your separated and fried brother

Now they use the term separated brethren and of course back then They did separate those brothers and tie them to stakes and burn them.

So obviously things have changed. It certainly gives I think the lie To the claim that Rome has not changed her dogma because that's certainly one issue upon which she has

At least to anyone who is willing to allow words to mean what words are supposed to mean

Anyhow be that as it may that's up there on the website as well.

My intention is as early as possible to Get that new article in response to Martin smart and John chapter 15 up there on the main page and if by the way you

Are listening to this on an archive that of course means you're listening well into the year 2001

Then you will probably find the article linked under the general apologetics section the defending the faith section

Something along those lines we do put those articles then into the regular Regular archives of the website as it continues to grow and grow and grow over time

But let's start off looking at John chapter 15 specifically and what

I would like to do is I'd like to present to you what? Mr. Smart had to say and Give you the the best presentation that that the other side can give

And then provide a response and I hope that you'll take your scriptures that you'll take the Bible Those of you and I I do know and I'm not not in any way shape or form

Being humorous about this. I do know that we have a number of people Who listen who are able to utilize the biblical languages a number of people who have taken

Greek from me or from other people right now One of my Greek students is teaching a

Greek class Simon Escobedo is teaching folks the wonderful language of Greek. It's always extremely

Encouraging for me when I see those that I have taught then teaching others that that's the way it's got to be done

That's the only way you're ever going to get anything accomplished And that's very exciting to me very encouraging to me and I would encourage you to get hold of your

Greek text because I think there are some issues that we need to look at in the Context of the original languages as well to look at John chapter 15

Now here is the presentation and I don't think I have any problem in presenting this because this was posted to an apologetics

Email list at egroups .com and I've asked the moderator of that list if I can

Quote and utilize this particular email, so I'm not breaking any rules or anything else.

This is perfectly legal Martin smart presented a

The following material quote now. I will fill you in with where I am going with this of course.

I'm picking up after Little previous discussion an examination of all the instances of NMO now

NMO means in me NMO with respect to being in Christ is educational and NMO with respects to union with Christ and there is a list of various passages

Where the phrase NMO is used and it's a fairly extensive list Matthew 10 32

Mark 14 6 Luke 12 8 and then let's look specifically at John chapter 6

Verse 56 he that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me now

Mr. Smart being a Jehovah's Witness by the way is using the New World Translation there is a interesting translation of In me or in Christ throughout the

New World Translation they use the phrase in union with me It normally results in a very well stilted translation

But the New World Translation is a very stilted translation begin with so John 56 56 in the

New World Translation He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me and I in union with him

John 10 38 if I am doing them Even though you do not believe believe the works in Or that you may come to know and may continue knowing that the father is in union with me and I am in union with The father now that's interesting usage

John 14 10 Do you not believe that I am in union with the father and the father is in union with me? Using NMO the things

I say to you men I do not speak such a poor translation the things I say to you men

I do not speak of my own originality But the father who remains in union with me and am

I men own is doing his works? John 14 11,

I'd have to fail these folks if they were taking my class name is John 14 11 believe me that I am in union with the father and the father is in union with me and am

I in both Otherwise believe an account of the works themselves John 14 20 in that day

You will know that I am in union with my father and you are in union with me again and am I and I am in? Union with you then you have

John 15 to Every branch in me and am I not bearing fruit?

He takes away and everyone bearing fruit. He cleans that it may bear more fruit than John 15 for these are the significant ones

Of course remain in union with me Mine it's a

NMO and I in union with you just as the branch Cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains in a vine in the same way neither can you remain in union with me?

and I'm getting tired of NMO or I'm sorry in union being the translation of NMO that is most

Bothersome after a while, but I I continue and John 15 5. I am divine

You are the branches he that remains in union with me. That is again Ha men owned the one abiding

NMO It should be the one abiding in me and I in union with him

This one bears much fruit because apart from me you can do nothing at all It occurs again in John 15 6 if anyone does not remain in union with me

He is cast out as a branch and is dried up and men gather those branches up and pitch them into the fire and they are

Burned John 15 7 if you remain in union with me and my sayings remain in you ask whatever you wish

And it will take place for you, then it goes on to list 1633 1721 1723

Etc. Etc. Etc. Then he quotes John 15 to he provides the transliteration of the

Greek and says please note that these ones and I guess there's a typographical error here to not merely claim to be in Christ But is the

Christ himself who claims they are NMO? That NMO is an apposition to claim a that is branch is obvious when the whole section of John 15 1 to 17 is

Taken in consideration. They are taught claim at ah, which remain and there are taught claim at ah, which are taken away

Before this sorting out takes place both classes of taught claim at ah, that is of branches are

NMO in me and Here's the only application

That is that is made all the way through the damage. This does the

Calvinist position should now be obvious that is the only statement that is made of Interpretation in regards to what is being asserted and that is that this particular use of John 15

Allegedly according to mr. Smart does damage to the Calvinist position why well the assumption is and He has come into the channel

And in fact, I may even bring up his own comments because it was most interesting I will include them in the article.

Anyways, he was in the channel I believe it was yesterday afternoon prior to the

Debate that we had on Roman Catholicism's that channel is always an interesting place to be He specifically made the application that the branch

That is taken away and burned was at one point in time in Christ was truly in union with Christ was a true believer and Therefore as a result of this passage it means that a person could be a true believer and Then lost can lose the salvation is theirs now as you probably know if you are familiar with the debate over Such terms as the perseverance the

Saints the preservation of the Saints eternal security once saved always saved and of course people apply all those phrases in different ways and people have different terms that they like to use and There are many people who believe in the preservation of the

Saints or the perseverance the Saints who don't like either one saved always saved or eternal security, but the concept that a person once regenerated a person who in whose life the

Holy Spirit works the miracle of regeneration takes them from spiritual death the spiritual life and Normally that is logically connected with the idea.

This is one of God's elect That this is a person whom God in his grace and mercy before before time itself chose to enter into loving relationship with this individual is born again and because that work of regeneration

That individual cannot possibly Be lost that person cannot lose the spiritual life that is theirs that Jesus Christ will be able to save that individual that Jesus Christ will not fail in his task of saving that Individual that is the issue that is at stake here now if you're familiar with that entire debate you know that John chapter 15 is not only used by Jehovah's Witnesses, but it is a standard passage that is used by all of those who deny the doctrine of eternal security and so This particular application is certainly nothing new.

It's not something strange or out of the ordinary But how do you respond to it?

What is the best means of responding to the passage well? first and foremost

First and foremost let's look at the passage in its context I think that is the most important thing and let's listen to what the

Lord Jesus says very very frequently and this this applies across the board this applies to almost any kind of Apologetic Interaction with individuals who are attempting to use the

Bible to substantiate their particular theology the first thing to do is to look at the context and Attempt to do so without allowing the controversy

That you are engaged in to color your hearing of the words, and that's a very difficult thing to do in fact

It's very difficult to do especially on the fly especially if you are for example on a radio program or you're out witnessing to people at the

Mormon temple like we do every spring or whatever it might be It is extremely difficult for most people to Set aside

The controversy put that aside and just listen to context when you do however

What the Lord Jesus says in John chapter 15 is? very Very interesting and in point of fact if you just for a moment if you have your finger there in the scripture

Skip down to verse 11 for just a moment Jesus says these things

I have spoken to you So that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be made full

Now if anything else I would point out to you that Jesus intends His discussion of the vine and the branches

To be a source of joy not fear But a source of joy for the disciples

Keeping that in mind. Let's listen To what the Lord Jesus says and first here's where doing

New Testament background studies and things like that is so very important What is the context of John chapter 15, and I don't want to sound like I don't know a wet blanket, but one of the things that you must

Realize is vitally important to be able to do Biblical apologetics is to go into backgrounds and to know each book

With sufficient familiarity to recognize what the context of a particular passage is

What I'm saying is we should for example if we are Christians We should know the gospel of John well enough to know that John chapter 15

Comes in the middle of an extended Section on the part of the

Lord Jesus. It starts in John 13 goes through John 17, and it's after Jesus has ended his public ministry

Jesus ends his public ministry in John chapter 12 he withdraws from the public and this is all taking place right before the betrayal of Christ and the night of his betrayal and This is intense ministry to the

Apostles themselves And it is also in the section where Jesus is talking about the coming of the

Holy Spirit John 14 and John 16 emphasize that but John 15 contains it as well and So it's in a very special part of the gospel of John with that in mind then

We look at John chapter 15 and read the words this time from a decent translation of the Bible called the

New American Standard Bible I am the true vine and my father is the vine dresser

Every branch in me that does not bear fruit. He takes away and every branch that bears fruit He prunes it so that may bear more fruit

You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you

Abide in me and I in you as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine

So neither can you unless you abide in me? I'm the vine.

You're the branches he who abides in me and I in him He bears much fruit for apart from me.

You can do nothing If anyone does not abide in me He is thrown away as a branch and dries up and they gather them and cast them into the fire and they are burned

If you abide in me and my words abide in you ask whatever you wish and it will be done for you

My father is glorified by this that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples

Just as the father has loved me. I have also loved you abide in my love If you keep my commandments you will abide in my love just as I have kept my father's commandments and abide in his love

These things I have spoken to you so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be made full

Now what I'd like to do is to walk through the passage and to exegete the passage

Without reference at first to the controversial use of the passage that we would have for example in mr

Smart's presentation and then once we've actually exegeted the passage and mr. Smart offers no exegesis of either

John 15 to or the passage and Toto Which is very common in those who attack the

Christian faith from whatever angle whether it be Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses or Whatever. They really will not

Exegete a text they is a jeet text they read into a particular text and the more

Isolated it is from the text the better Because then you don't have to worry about actually finding out what the passage is really saying

We'll apply the exegesis after we get through Looking at it

Verse 1. I am the true vine. My father is the vine dresser now the

Lord Jesus loved to use horticultural examples in Mark chapter 4

Mark chapter 11 remember in the parable of the the wheat and the tares agriculture horticulture both vine and branches as well as the the use of wheat and and Growing things and mustard seeds the

Lord used examples that individuals in The audience those to whom he was speaking would be able to immediately

See in their minds exactly what was being spoken about by the Lord He says

I am the true vine and my father is the vine dresser now notice I am the

Lord Jesus uses The I am sayings all through the gospel of John I am the light of the world

I am the the bread of life, but however you might want to put it The I am sayings are all through it.

I am the true vine The Lord Jesus is concerned to emphasize the fact that he is the true vine

There are many false Messiah's many false sources of spiritual nutrition that would exist

Throughout the Church Age, but Jesus is the true vine and then notice he says my father is the vine dresser

Now what was a vine dresser? Again, the people to whom these words were being spoken would have no problem whatsoever

Understanding exactly what the Lord was referring to when he refers to a vine dresser a vine dresser was a person

Who had the responsibility in essence To make sure that the vine produced the most fruit possible the vine dresser worked to make the vine the the healthiest that it possibly could be for one purpose and that was to produce fruit a

Vine dresser who did not produce the maximum crop of fruit for his employer would be a vine dresser

Who would find himself working at the local McDonald's? Well, okay, that's a little bit of an anachronistic interpretation

But you understand what I'm saying. He would not long be working as a vine dresser

Notice the distinction of the father and the son It is pretty difficult to read a passage like this as a modalist as a oneness

Pentecostal When it is clear that the son Differentiates himself from the father and yet he says that he is the source of spiritual nourishment

Oneness Pentecostals like to say that the son is the Physical nature of Christ the father the spiritual and the deity but that makes no sense here at all because it is the son

It is the son Who provides the spiritual nourishment for the branches who are in him?

most interesting things to note from the text of Scripture itself verse 2 oh

By the way, this kind of illustration is really nothing new if you're interested in noting this back in the book of Isaiah All the way back in Isaiah, I believe it's chapter 15

No chapter 5 verses 1 through 7. I believe is where you have the specific use of a vineyard

As an illustration even by the prophet Isaiah way back in the

Old Testament itself verse 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit. He takes away and every branch that bears fruit

He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit Now again, this is a description of the work of the father

We are not listening to the text We're not listening to the text if We immediately jump to the controversy of the passage and not hear the fact that verse 2 is first and foremost a standard description of what a vine dresser does a

Vine dresser does not Allow branches to exist in a vine that do not bear fruit branches in a vine that are not fruit bearers are immediately removed

Because they are contrary to what to the purpose of the vine dresser himself the father's purpose in vine dressing is

To produce fruit in the branches that are in Christ That's a very important thing to remember now

Every branch in me that does not bear fruit in a sense. He is the

Vine the only true vine that then any branch that does exist has to be in him

Every branch in me that does not bear fruit He takes away and we're about to take a break.

But let me just mention before we do he takes away There have been some folks who in attempting to get around this passage in misunderstanding it have attempted to say well takes away here

Actually, it doesn't mean that he removes them, but he lifts them up because you could do a a

You you could translate the Greek phrase as to to lift up Sort of It doesn't really

Iro can mean to lift up in that way But it means to remove when it's used in any type of horticultural setting like this

And so we don't need to go that direction. He takes it away This is the same branch that is discussed in verse 6 when it says they are gathered together and burn

So obviously it means to be removed from the vine itself

Well, I can't believe it took me half an hour to only get to verse 2 and we're only halfway through that we've got to get through verse 8 at least

I'm moving a little bit slow, but hey, we like to be a little bit on the Thorough side here 8 6 6 5 5 0 3 9 15 is the number if you'd like to get online

It's gonna take me a while to finish this up. Let's try to get a little bit farther through John chapter 15 But write it down 8 6 6 5 5 0 3 9 15.

We'll be coming back in the dividing line right after this Fighting line, my name is

James White and everything's working. Well today we got everything working. I think and that's

That's cool. That's that's nice now before we go back to the exegesis of John chapter 15,

I Sometimes you're put in a position where where you're able to encourage brothers in the

Lord and To do so in in a you know, just in a special way

And we were trying to do something like that right before the the program began today but unfortunately as some believe demons inhabit electronic equipment and That brother in the

Lord that we were attempting to encourage well for one of the first times

I can remember in a long time managed to lock up his computer and so I would like to try to encourage that brother in the

Lord and and So before we started the program today We were we were playing some music and and and the music is is good

Christian music it's it's silly British music, but it's still good Christian music and so I would like to play a song from by a silly

Brit a silly Brit named Colin and Actually, it's a pretty good song now all of you

Kenneth Copeland fans Um, well, you're not gonna like this But I will give you an email address to write to and complain later.

Don't write to me and complain about this Actually, let's just listen to the song But check the word see what they're preaching at me

But all I ever hear them scream his name and claim your prosperity

I have faith in your faith. Send your money to me. They've got to be kidding.

How dumb can you be? It's a different gospel Jesus they're selling a lie that I just can't buy it's a different gospel

Different Jesus get into the truth before the truth isn't true Oh You tell me if I want to be rich or to be healed or to have a new car

I Just have to say the right words. You just believe that I have the power

Oh, and don't forget to say that it's all in his name, but by the third commandment

It's all in It's a different Different Jesus you're selling a lie that I just can't buy it's a different gospel

It's a different Jesus get into the truth before the truth isn't true

He said the time is coming

Men will not put up with sound doctrine And just to soothe their wounds

They will gather around them teachers who will tell them what they want to hear

That I can't be a man if I'm a child of his hey,

I'm a little guy I Can do whatever he can

I'm running the show I can do what I want But there ain't no

God, but the great I am It's a different gospel

It's a different Jesus. You're selling a lie that I just can't buy it's a different gospel

Different Jesus get into the truth before the truth isn't true, but that's a different gospel

It's a different Jesus. You're selling a lie that I just can't buy it's a different gospel

It's a different Jesus get into the truth before the truth isn't true

Yeah, well, I hope that was I hope that gets somebody off my back actually

That's that's a good song and like I said any of you Kenneth Copeland fans any of Any of you folks who you know don't appreciate that that stuff

I Dropped me an email and I will forward it to the appropriate people

Now of course it is a different gospel when you teach that Jesus had to be born again the pits of hell and all the rest that stuff

I certainly agree that Kenneth Copeland and those folks are false teachers wolves amongst the sheep

No question about that whatsoever, we've been looking at John chapter 15 and We were looking at verse 2 every branch in me that does not bear fruit

He takes away and every branch that bears fruit. He prunes it so it may bear more fruit. This is a description of the work of the vine dresser the vine dresser examines

The branches and when he finds a branch that is not bearing fruit

Then he removes it There is no reason for it. There is no need for it.

It is a waste of space It's a waste of sunlight. It's a waste of Water, it's a waste of everything.

It is removed and verse 6 says gathered together and burned the one that every branch that bears fruit he prunes it now here is where if you have the

Greek text Take a look at the verb that is used in regards to pruning

Every branch that bears fruit. He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit

The Greek term there is kathai rye Kathai rye he prunes it now keep your finger there and look down at verse 3

Where it says you are already clean because the word which I have spoken to you katha

Roy there is a play on words here in John 15 that unfortunately,

I don't know how outside of simply using a Footnote an end note a study note in the translation that you could explain in English but in the original language you can see the play on words that exist between two and three

The branch that bears fruit is pruned It is prunes that may bear more fruit

Now, that's what again 15 to what is the purpose of 15 to is it to discuss eternal security?

No What is it doing? It is describing? the function of The vine dresser the vine dresser removes fruitless branches and he prunes those branches that are bearing fruit what purpose

So that they can bear more fruit now I just note in a pastoral not necessarily exegetical but pastoral context pruning may not be enjoyable for the branch in Fact pruning if we're going to apply this to the

Christian life If normally the word that is used in Paul's Epistles for example is a word that's very very unpopular.

It's called suffering the pruning of the branch often involves the suffering of that branch and That is the work of the father

But it's always for a purpose it's always for a purpose

You cannot believe that the vine dresser is Going to prune a branch to no end sometimes people ask how can you be reformed and Calvinistic and like go to the go to the hospital and Talk to people who are suffering and I look back at them as I don't know how you can do it when you're not

Because you can't look at anybody and say there is truly a purpose and what is going on There's a purpose in your suffering.

There's a purpose in the loss of your loved one if you don't believe in the sovereign decree of God so a little pastoral application as we go by there, so 15 to the work of the vine dresser is

To bring about more fruitfulness verse 3 you are already clean because the word which

I have spoken to you and so you have here in essence for a moment the

Lord steps out of the Parable or the horticultural application shall we say and Please note something

You are already clean because the word which I have spoken to you I've already noted the play on words here that means

The disciples to whom he is speaking are the fruitful branches

They are the ones who are clean katharoi Because of the word diaton logon through the word which

I have spoken to you We can't help but notice or can't help but remember I think if we're thinking of the rest of this discourse by the

Lord Jesus in John chapter 17 in the True Lord's Prayer the high priestly prayer that he says what about his disciples?

Sanctify them in the truth. What's the rest of it your word is truth?

so here it is the word that has cleansed them and so we already have

I would just note in passing a distinction made between the branches that are being pruned which are true disciples the ones to whom

Jesus is speaking and those other branches That are not as we will see true disciples, but please notice something as well.

Mr. Smart when he was in channel, it was very clear and very sad To note that he was emphasizing that we have to abide we're doing the abiding it comes from us

What in reality Do we see here in John 15 3? but that the cleansing the pruning is done by the vine dresser and Hear the

Lord Jesus in speaking the word and what did Jesus say? I do not speak my own words, but what?

Those words the father has given to me it is the father's word that then brings about the pruning of the branches and Isn't it the case?

Those of you who are listening who are Christians, is it not the case that the word brings us about in our life?

This is why at our fellowship we are we so emphasize the fact that the central aspect of The worship of God in the church

Cleansing it is the word that brings about this pruning it is so Sad to me that so many today believe that you at you minimize the word and you maximize the the the warm fuzzy seeker friendly feelings

It goes against everything that the word itself teaches About what we're to be doing in the service and it doesn't bring about this cleansing

It doesn't bring about this pruning When we come into The place of God to hear the servant of God bring the

Word of God with an attitude Lord let your word do its work in me. That is when we are truly rendering worship to God The less focused we are upon ourself and the more upon him that is when you have true worship and A bunch of you are saying man.

Are you out of step with today? Yep. I sure am and gladly, so You are already clean

Because of the word which I have spoken to you not the word which you got not the word which you confessed

The word which I have spoken to you verse 4

Abide in me and I in you as The branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine

So neither can you unless you abide in me? What is the horticultural example again obvious if?

a branch say in a windstorm or a rainstorm is Separated from the life -giving nourishment of the vine it cannot bear fruit.

It is going to die It cannot in and of itself bear fruit

Now Notice something very very interesting here Those of you who have the

Greek text if you will look at the text and if you're doing some some parsing shall we say

When Jesus says abide in me the word abide the verb meno is in the imperative

It is in the imperative that's a command not a suggestion abide in me and this is where a person who does not understand the

Godwardness of salvation the technical term the Theocentricity the fact that that salvation is focused upon what

God is doing not what man does But what God is doing in those branches

Looks at that isolates it Isolates it from the entirety of the the rest of the passages see

Abide in him hold on with all the power you've got Well There's a problem

That's only one half of a sentence And it's it's amazing how many times people would build entire theologies on half of a sentence of people who would be very very upset if you ever

Interpreted them in half sentence units will interpret the Bible in half sentence units

You know, you know the most obvious example of that in my experience. Anyways, well, there's a couple John 14 28 the father's greater than I am.

It's only half a sentence John chapter 6 verse 37 the one coming to me. I'll never cast away.

That's only half a sentence But notice this one Abide in me and what's the rest of the sentence and I in you wait a minute.

Wait a minute. Well How can that be how how can?

Jesus Use the same verb because that's what he does there is no verb in the second clause those of you looking at the text cargo and who mean is

Jesus commanding himself To abide in the in the disciples. What how can the normal meaning of the imperative be used here?

Well, it's not Actually, this is what is called the aorist imperative

Imperative -constantive usage those of you who have Daniel Wallace's Greek grammar beyond the basics

You might want to look at pages 720 to 721 for a discussion of this particular use aorist imperative

This use the aorist imperative emphasizes the importance urgency and priority of the command

Which is a general precept Hence the sense is it is vital and fundamental that you abide in me and I in you for apart from me

You can do nothing Jesus is not saying I command you to exercise your greatest effort to abide in me

And if you don't you're dead meat, that's not what he's saying He isn't saying he is saying it is vital and fundamental

That there be this union between us that you abide in me and I in you why because apart from me

You can do nothing I am the only source of spiritual life and is that not the very teaching in John chapter 6

That caused all of the surface level quote disciples end quote

Who would even follow Jesus across the lake to the synagogue Capernaum to turn around and walk away

It was Jesus's assertion that unless you feed on me unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood and That is not the

Roman Catholic Mass That is vital union with Jesus Christ and him alone unless you find in Christ you're only insufficient source of Spiritual nutrition and life you have no life in yourselves is what

Jesus said in John 6 and Here he repeats it to those who will hear his words remember what

Peter said Peter said to whom can we go

Lord? Where shall we go for you have the words of eternal life and now he utters these same words of eternal life to the disciples in the night of his betrayal and He says you must understand you must abide in me and I in you because apart from me

You cannot do anything the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in divine and so neither can you bear fruit unless you abide in me the only source of spiritual nourishment is in Jesus Christ alone is the point of verse 4

Now verse 5 then we'll get to the end. I don't know if we will this week or not, but we'll get to the end

John 15 5 I am the vine You're the branches he who abides in me and I in him he bears much fruit for apart from me you can do nothing

Who do not I you are unable apart from me to do?

anything Another one of those favorite phrases of the Gospel of John Unable to do anything apart from me now this section summarizes the preceding verses makes the clear application he is the vine we the branches a promise is given here that Determines the categories in which the next verse verse 6, which is normally what people are focused upon must be read

Jesus specifically asserts the person in whom he abides and who abides in him bears much fruit mark that down there is no such thing as A disciple who is in union with Christ in whom there is no fruit.

I Know I know You've probably heard folks who've gone over to the passage and it is a parallel passage very important in the synoptic

Gospels where the Lord Jesus Christ gives the Story of the the soils it's not it's not the parable of the sower.

The sower is really irrelevant it's a parable the soils and There in the

Lord's words you have the sower who goes out to sow and what he sows the Word of God and as he sows, he just spreads the seed around and the seed falls on different kinds of soil and you've probably heard in evangelicalism today

Because of well because of inconsistencies those people who say well

The soil it falls in the rocky soil, okay, those aren't obviously Christians because the birds come along and eat it and they're gone but all the others where there's any growth at all are all

Christians you see and so the rocky soil and the shallow soil those are really

Christians and Then you've got the super Christians who actually bear fruit That is such an inconsistent interpretation

The obviously consistent interpretation of Jesus parable there is That when the word goes out and Jesus is explaining to the disciples.

Why is it that when you preach the word? you will have those who will embrace it quickly and get all excited about it and Then six months later.

They're not there anymore the disciples saw this constantly in In the ministry of Jesus The disciples would see people who would come and and they'd get all excited about Jesus's miracles and his parables and it's so neat.

It's so great but six months later it's a different crowd and They might see someone in the marketplace who seen

They had seen them six months earlier and they were so excited. But now they say hey

Jesus is about to speak oh, that's that's that's cool, but they don't come and We've seen it if you've been a

Christian any period of time in the church You've seen it the surface level follower the

John 6 followers who see the miracles and they'll even Give up a day of work and they'll get in boats and go across the lake and they'll follow after Jesus for a

While for a while but when

Jesus brings the true Meaning of discipleship to bear on those people in John 6.

What do they do? They walk away When the Sun comes up upon those quick growing plants in the shallow soil they

Wilt away when the thistles come up and persecution comes they wilt away

And the consistent interpretation is they are not Christians They are not

Christians because why they do not bear any fruit

But now please note something Please note something in the passage

That we're talking about in the synoptic Gospels Jesus does recognize that there are going to be

Christians who bear more fruit than others Some 30 some 60 some 100 fold

He is not saying that there is some one standard that all Christians live up to But the consistent element in all of these examples is they bear fruit why because it's the vine dressers purpose that they do

It is the father's purpose that Christians bear fruit. That's why when

God saves his elect He doesn't just simply beam them out of the world instead he leaves us here and Uses us so that we may bear fruit.

I don't know that we're gonna get done today. I Thought we were but I'm I'm preaching and it's

It's Colin's fault and it's Dave's fault and it's Katie's fault. It's all their fault.

They keep saying amen and When people say amen You preach it's just I can't help what's going on, but we're gonna take a break

We're gonna take a break and come back. Hopefully finish John chapter 15 here on the dividing line today. We'll be right back

And a short break indeed, but we are back together again, and some people are wondering boy

You know, you've been coughing and hacking for a long time Yeah, but I'm feeling fine And I think it's just I think this stuff now is just simply the fact that It is dry out here in Arizona right now.

It is dry dry dry I don't know that the Lord designed my lungs to survive this this level of dryness

Very very dry. So don't worry about me if I cough a few times. It ain't no ain't no biggie

Now we're gonna try to get through John chapter 15 here and we have seen verse 5

Provides us with a summary of the preceding verses, but again the important thing to note is

He who abides in me and I in him he bears much fruit

Please notice something and you're gonna sort of see where mr. Smart's Attempts fail if you just note this the word to abide is not used in verse 2

Those branches that are not fruitful are those that do not abide

Keeping that in mind look at verse 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away as a branch and dries up and They gather them and cast them into the fire and they are burned

If anyone does not abide in me Now immediately there are those again who?

Ignore the context and would say well, that's up to the branch. I thought it was up to the vine dresser doesn't verse 2 say it's the the vine dresser that examines the branch and removes it and Didn't Jesus just say that if the branch is abiding in him that it bears fruit

So the branch that is not abiding does not bear fruit and those the ones that are taken away. Is that not the case?

If anyone does not abide in me, oh well abiding is something that we're to do

Folks, it's amazing to me man's Religions always look at God's Word through the lens of man's alleged freedom not

God's Sovereignty it is a work of grace in the heart of man that allows him to Hear the scripture in its own

Context it is not some concept that we somehow work something up Think about it the branch can do nothing of itself and that includes abiding the reason that any branch can abide is

Because of the work of the vine within it That's why

That is the work of God Anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away as a branch and dries up and they gather them and cast them into the fire and they are burned reminds me a good bit of the death of the

Seed that goes into ground that's shallow or rocky or That has thorns and thistles it reminds me a good bit of the

Wheat and the tears because it is the tears That are torn up. It is the tears that are burned verse 7 if you abide in me and My words abide in you and what are those words do remember the previous verse?

They are the words that cleanse make clean If you abide in me and my words abide in you ask whatever you wish and it will be done for you

One of those passages often misused by word faith teachers To turn us into little gods who can command

God to do things And yet in the context, what does it mean? bearing fruit

If you abide in me my words abide in you It is those words it is that life -giving sap that comes to the vine into the branches

The person in whose life The Word of God is active will not be

Asking for the things that word faith teachers say you can ask for I'll never forget

A Many years ago in an office far far away. We were doing a radio program and In that particular radio program a guy called him and he told us right on the air

That he had named and claimed a Corvette And he had gone down to the to the dealership

Every day and walked around at seven times now at that point if I've been one of the salesman It would have had him arrested personally.

But anyways, and that God had given him that Corvette Well, that's not what the person in whose life the word is operational is going to be asking for anyways

If Christ's Word abides in you, what are you going to wish? What are you going to desire

You're going to desire righteousness and Holiness and to be able to be like Christ and the promise is

It will be done for you That is the promise of John 15 7

Now look at the John 15 8 my father is glorified by this so the vine dresser is

Glorified in this what that you bear much fruit and what?

so prove to be my disciples when mr.

Smart came into the chat channel, I Asked him a question. I said

Martin, how do you prove you're a disciple and He knew

Exactly where I was going He knew exactly where I was going You see here's really the key to all of it.

My father is glorified by this you see the gospel the work of God in salvation brings about the glory of the

Father and Therefore the phrase that you bear much fruit and so prove to be not my disciples

Makes it very clear that a branch that does not bear fruit is Not a disciple of Christ There is no glory to the father in the unfruitful branch that bears no fruit and What does

Paul tell us in Ephesians chapter 1? That everything God does in saving his elect people is under the praise of his glorious grace

And so it is obvious without question

That a person is completely missing The entire thrust of the passage

To say that what is being said here is you can be in Christ in union with him abiding in him and yet not bear fruit and be cast away as a branch

That is not what Jesus says the bearing of fruit proves

That a person is a disciple of Christ Now I guess and I I'm not sure what the application was that Mr.

Smart wants to focus and those who have the who have the Greek text out

You may be interested to note that the Greek verb used in John 15 8 proved to be my disciples is actually one of every first -year

Greek students Favorite verbs get am

I Gingen gone for those of you who have studied this wonderful verb that loves to change forms

Or maybe you may be like a very good friend of mine who hasn't gotten to the verbs yet And I keep telling him that when you get to the verbs well

It's gonna be really interesting and here's a verb that Changes its root in Various forms and so in some it's gin and in others it's

Ganon and one it's gone No, not gone as in Gion. It's Yeah, my

Omicron new anyways, it's gone. I Think I'm not sure exactly Why?

Mr. Smart wants to focus upon Ginnomai and say well actually means to become my disciples but he's missing something and that is he he needs to recognize that this is a

Hinnah clause and In a Hinnah clause you have here a clear use of Ginnomai in such a way that the

New American Standards translation makes perfect sense in regards to the issue of Proving or demonstrating oneself to be

Christ's disciples Now someone has asked a

I think a rabble rouser Someone who who likes to cause problems possibly well, what is this fruit?

What is this fruit that we are to bear? Well, I I think that is clearly seen in what comes in the words after concerning the abiding in the love of Christ and specifically verse 10 if You keep my commandments if you love one another

This is the fruit the love of the brethren, is that not what James says is the only evidence of true religion is love and and Ministering to the

To the widow and to the orphan and and so on and so forth And so in essence,

I think the fruit is the outworking of the vine in the branch

So that we are like Christ we do what Christ does

We live out his life in our own lives Would be the fruit that is mentioned there

Obviously we can connect that with the Lord the Apostle Paul's own words

What is the what is in us the life that is in us as Jesus will describe in John 14?

he and the Father take up his abode within us how in the minute the Holy Spirit and Therefore what is the fruit of the

Holy Spirit? Obviously love joy. Peace patience kindness goodness faith

We can translate that faithfulness, but it can also actually be faith itself is a work of the

Holy Spirit within our hearts, so Wow I've taken an hour and 15 minutes to Get around to just getting through verse 8

What then can we say? About mr. Smart's attempt as one of Jehovah's Witnesses or sadly sadly a

Those who would agree with us that Jehovah's Witnesses are not even a part of the Christian body

But Protestants who would for whatever reason I would say for tradition the sake of tradition

Say to us no John 15 says you can be in Christ you can be one of the branches and yet end up in hell well a

Totally inconsistent with the gospel of John the concepts of being in Christ The concept of Christ being a perfect Savior John chapter 6 where all those who are given by the

Father to the Son It is the Father's will for the Son that he lose none of them

Would be violated if mr. Smart's misinterpretation of verse 2

Were to stand we have further seen that there is a misinterpretation in that What mr.

Smart does by simply listing phrases such as in me is to demonstrate that Context truly has to be taken into consideration

You cannot simply provide a list of words drawn from your use of your

Watchtower Bible CD and Somehow indicate that the phrase in me must have the same meaning in all places

Because it obviously does not in John chapter 15

The phrase must be interpreted in its own context and Since the

Lord Jesus makes it very clear That true disciples are those who bear fruit

That this bearing of fruit is not something that we do But that Christ does in us because apart from him we can do nothing

That It is the work of the vinedresser the father to bring glory to himself in causing

Christians to bear fruit Then it is obvious that the use of John 15 to in the phrase in me is

Woefully isogetical that it's contradictory not only to John 6 but Ephesians 1 and it's

Contradictory in its own context That in Jesus's own application of his own parable his own horticultural illustration that he excludes those branches that do not bear fruit from being cleansed by the word which is what makes a person a

Christian in the first place and being his disciples John 15 8 and This likewise contradicts

John 15 11 because this would not be an interpretation that would bring us joy 8 6 6 5 5 0 3 9 15

Maybe you've been listening all along and you've got a question that I haven't handled We have just a few moments.

That is a toll -free number 8 6 6 5 5 0 3915 is the phone number if you'd like to get in and last

About 10 minutes of the dividing line today. In fact, maybe maybe mr.

Smart would like to call I will confess I thought this morning of Sending him an email and saying

I'm gonna be talking about it. Feel free to call in and you know why I didn't do it well,

I was working out this morning and Had a really good workout and Right as we were getting to the calf part of the workout all of a sudden we were told that we had some visitors at the front door

Yes, some Jehovah's Witnesses irony of irony were at the front door and so While I had been thinking about doing that going to the front door and getting to spend just a few moments

With some Jehovah's Witnesses and in fact folks They took two copies of the

Forgotten Trinity That for those of you who know Jehovah's Witnesses is Pretty unusual pray for those folks pray the

Lord's doing something in the life, but we Went to the front door

Shared with those individuals and it just went right out of the brain to drop mr.

Smart a line So I apologize. I think I could have done that. I think I could have dug up the email address someplace

But I didn't but eight six six five five zero thirty nine fifteen is a phone number if you would like to a comment upon the subject of the dividing line today

John chapter 15 the example of Martin smarts misuse of John 15 to the misuse of a list of usages of in me and That demonstrates that you sort of need to look at a context every time that a passage is brought up now

I'm going to try to do something here Seeing if anyone is going to call us I'm scrolling back to the chat room here and I'm looking for this right here

Now rich this this may be very interesting. I'm trying to get something on the web, which may blow us right off the web

I don't know. I hope not but I'm trying to bring up a real audio file and I'm going to try

To play a real audio file. I was I didn't tell you we're gonna do this But hey, it's live webcasting.

Why not? It's attempting to connect right now. It may not be able to I'll tell you what

I'm gonna do Yep Connection to server could not be established hmm.

Tell you what I'm gonna. Do rich is I'm gonna send you the the actual URL here, and I'm gonna see if you can connect it on that side is it possible that Let me know in the chat channel is it possible for you to play that on the air

I? Don't know if you can but I do realize I'm trying to do this through a firewall that sometimes is very very very very difficult to do

That's a nice response the the deep technical response coming from the technical director of the program is

You HHH. I think that is pronounced This is a song that's that I would

I would like to be able to play And if I can't play it this week, then maybe I can get it either in wave format

I'm getting I don't think so so if you click on that on The unit that you're on right now

That isn't the unit you need to click on it to play it on the air is that the the point of my understanding of?

What's going on over there? Oh? Fine well, can you say feedback?

Well okay, all right well, we will we will attempt to work that particular issue out

In in the future and possibly be able to play that song and encourage some other of our listeners

How is that a courage some other of our listeners in regards to those those particular things?

Eight six six five five zero three nine fifteen if folks aren't going to call. That's okay Because I didn't even think

I was going to get through as I said I will attempt to finish up the article on John chapter 15 and Get it up on the website.

It won't be quite as full as this, but what we'll do now is we will simply link to this

At the end of the article for those who would like to have a further discussion of that particular

Passage it's something that we get a lot of questions on on a regular basis And I think it should be hopeful or hopefully helpful to people

In that in that particular way what I'm going to do quite honestly I Have had

I've gotten the opportunity I'll let people know be in the

Nashville area I believe it's going to be February 24th and 25th if you're around there and I'm going to be speaking at two different churches.

I will be able to give you details in the future But it's going to be a really neat opportunity because I'm going to be preaching which isn't really an overly exciting thing

But I am going to have a real special minister in music along with me in fact

What I'm going to do is I'm going to play a song for you from that Minister in music what

I haven't played before if you can pop that up rich This is a fellow who's going to be singing before I preach, and it should make me preach fairly well fellow by name of Steve Camp Grass with us

Flower fades away heard of God's stand

For enemies of the cross attack it from age to age

There is no storm you cannot weather It's all we ever need for life and godly man

This word has saved our souls From death

He exalts above His holy name

One command Of the pure sufficient Word Oh God Hear us stand

Trust in vision

They claim to have seen Others build their faith upon Their feet alone

A prophetic word made more sure As righteous, true, and clean

Without it our experience Means nothing

Nothing The word that God has spoken Is final and is true

And all who place their faith in it Shall never be moved

Hear us stand On the once for all delivered faith

He exalts above His holy name

Hear us stand Never changing one command

On the pure sufficient Word Oh God Hear us

The word of God is living Sharper than any sword

It's not the tales of men But the word of the

Lord Hear us stand On the once for all delivered faith

On the word He exalts above His holy name

Hear us stand Never changing one command

On the pure sufficient Word Oh God Hear us stand

That, of course, is

Steve Camp with Here I Stand. I'm really not sure what it's going to be like for me to preach after Steve Camp sings.

I got to speak after he sang in Florida, but I was doing a presentation at that time on a subject, not really preaching.

So it could have interesting effects. No two ways about it. But anyways,

I'll let you know more about that when I get the details, hopefully, maybe even this week, concerning what churches we're going to be at.

I'm going to be all over the place. In the next number of months, I'm going to be on Long Island and Nashville and New Orleans in June and back to Long Island in May and Normal, Illinois and Indianapolis, Indiana.

I'm going all over the place. So we need to get a list up on the website as to where I'm going. But anyways, hopefully