Debate: Does the Bible Teach the Concept of the Trinity

Can you show me because we're gonna use some hermeneutics Can you show me anywhere in the

Old Testament where that word perpetual is not perpetual because again, I understand you're appealing again

Sure Wait a minute, I thought what

I was gonna get to have a talk you you asked a question Well, there you go,

I will mute you because it's not your show you asked a question I'm gonna give you the answer Genesis 6 for the word

Olam is used referring to those who are of old Deuteronomy, I'll get just rattle off all the ones where it's used not referring to perpetual

Genesis 6 for Deuteronomy 32 7 Joshua 24 to 1st

Samuel 27 8 Job 22 15 Psalm 20 24 7 24 9 25 6 41 13 77 9 90 verse 2 103 verse 17 106 verse 48 1 19 52 1 feet 43 3rd verse 3

Proverbs 8 23 Proverbs 22 28 Proverbs 23 10 and Ecclesiastes 110 should

I go on for more? blah blah blah blah blah Welcome to apologetics live we're here to answer your questions and challenges about God and the

Bible meet your hosts from striving for eternity ministries Andrew Rappaport, dr. Anthony Silvestro and pastor

Justin Pierce Blah blah blah blah blah. We're live actual live after what six weeks now

So, I know many of you have missed us I'm We've been doing a bunch of travel

I'm gonna give you a quick update on some of that the but I had to replay that clip from Batman there who was blah blah blah blah blah some some folks had not heard that when we that originally recorded and commented to me

After listening to that, I guess two weeks ago in one of the replays and thought that was hysterical let me bring in my my

Acting co -host here. It is. Mr. Drew Vanita. How are you, sir? I'm doing well doing well happy to be here

Hope I just hope I can help out the ball club So real quick a couple things quick updates because we want to get to discussions we have some folks that backstage

Here's what we're gonna do and we're gonna start trying to do this more is a regular format is to put up To start, you know with some of the in new segments and just giving you guys updates on things

We're gonna get whatever the topic that we have we'll do that the bulk of the time We're gonna reserve like half an hour at the end to answer questions

Now there's gonna be lots of times where when it's not a formal topic. We're gonna we'll just answer questions whenever So but I did have an update

We previously on the show when we were live. I gave an update on the

Lindsay Davis situation we a couple weeks before that we had Zach Davis on and we talked about that and I made a comment about the fact that they raised money $42 ,000 for a

For a GoFundMe and they said they couldn't explain what the GoFundMe was for Because that was for legal reasons and so that got me curious and I went and looked and I could not find a legal case

I I had looked through a search that searches everything and I could not find one at the time

However, that doesn't mean I stopped because if I say something wrong, here's gonna be a difference you're gonna see go back and watch that one with Zach where he was slandering

Justin Peters and You don't see him correcting. What was clearly a misrepresentation

Well, if I say something wrong, I correct it and if I say it publicly I correct it publicly

I said it on this show. So I'm correcting it on this show. There is a legal case that I was able to find

It has not gone to court. The court date is June It looks like June 6th.

Sorry, June 4th of 2024 so we'll see About that, but it does seem that there was some sort of case

That is interesting now was interesting because I said on the same thread where I said, there was no court case

I corrected it and said that I would be mentioning it here now mind you Lindsay could have just provided the link.

I mean she has the court case she could have provided it but instead she chose to go silent when I asked for the evidence that there was a court case and What we ended up seeing is she said this she texted me

I saw your comment about finally being able to find our lawsuit That you plan to make a correction on next apologetics live

I would kindly ask that you issue a statement of public repentance for your sin you're slandering us in the most horrific ways accusing us of frauds of As being frauds and scamming people out of $42 ,000 across multiple and different platforms for from hundreds of thousands of people to read

Okay, let me just stop it there and just say first off I thanked her that she thought that I have hundreds of thousands of followers

I I don't think it's that big. I think it's a little bit smaller. Maybe in the tens of thousands

I get that we're you know, my my other podcast is in the top 100 of podcasts in Christianity But I still don't think it's hundreds of thousands.

I'm just not that big but Notice a couple things first off Let's deal with facts.

I never accused them of being frauds and Scamming people I stated things that are factual.

I stated that I could not find a legal case I couldn't at the time. I Stated that they raised $42 ,000 and said they could not say why it's being used for legal reasons.

Those are facts Those are not slander that can't be slander people throw around the word slander.

Yeah, there's when you misrepresent knowingly Someone to damage their reputation so you're saying something, you know is false about them to damage their reputation

I said nothing that I knew was false In fact now we know as I see that there's correction to be made.

I make it not afraid of the truth But then she says

What you did is hideous and I would pray that you take real public responsibility for your sins

You've committed the Ninth Commandment violation Slander and committed libel you deserve public

This deserves public acknowledgment in the same ways in which you disparaged and that slander

Written repentance and verbal repentance. We forgive you for your sins For your sins against us seventy times seven and pray that you would repent

Before the Lord and so there was no slander. There was no sin if She came to the conclusion that I was calling her frauds she easily could have produced the evidence

Instead of saying I was slander, but but here's what I said. I said, I'm sorry, but what what is my sin?

Are you blind to your own behavior? You slandered Justin Peters publicly refused to repent when you were clearly exposed

You lied about being discipled even the two names I mentioned previously about her being disciple she gave me two names of men who

Discipled her and when I reached out to him one had wouldn't comment and the other said he knows them for a while and I said well, what's the your discipleship with them look like and he said

I Don't know what you're talking about. And that's the last I heard. So Okay. I mean, it's kind of telling when someone

What when you ask someone hey, have you discipled them and they refuse to comment? Yeah.

Yeah I'm just saying I can't know am I is that calling them liars?

No, I'm saying that the people they gave me as Proof that they've been discipled wouldn't answer how they discipled

So I said I said I'll wait for your public apology to Justin until then

You're just a woman seeking a platform note for for the record You never once provided the case you ignored it leaving me to have to continue the research

The difference between you and me is that I correct myself when wrong and you just continue with your lies

Will when will you repent? And so that was my my response to her And so I'm correcting the record here.

So that is it's on record That I said son that was now

I'm able to prove Was inaccurate. Unfortunately, it would have been better if she had provided it right away could have done that.

Yeah, but All right. So with that, let me get to real quick.

I know a lot of folks are asking About my trip And so I'm wearing my nice Israel shirt as I just got back

And so we I will be doing a longer rap report episode coming up So if you subscribe to the

Andrew rap reports rap report podcast It'll I think it'll be a prior in two or three weeks that this one will come out

But I'm gonna do a longer vert podcast with Eric Johnson Who was with us on the trip and I will be?

Going into more detail about the Israel trip. I will go into some Showing some pictures and things like that because I'll probably do a video for that one

But I'm gonna get into way more information there, but I did want to just give some sort of update.

So Drew and I were commenting before I did pick up yet another Shofar because well,

I actually know how to use them and he's gonna come out with the striving for eternity album the sounds of the shofar

Yeah, no No, no We're not gonna be doing that but I do

I as a trumpet player I know how to use I know how to use it and I do enjoy it, but they are loud and So meant to be used outdoors.

Just saying I'll tell you a couple things real quick that about going to Israel get you guys enticed if you guys have not been there

It's it's really good really helpful to read your Bible to understand your

Bible better when you're When you've been there, you know, one of the things that really blew me away drew was this being

Being there at where we were on on the roof of where the upper room would have been.

Oh, wow, and And roll Joel is reading Acts chapter 2 and he's reading

Acts chapter 2 speaking about how David King David had had died and You know that the where he's referring to the fact that King David died but you know, he was gonna have a son that wouldn't die and You could see like as Joel's doing this

Joel's pointing and saying guys remember when we were at King David's tomb It's right there and you could see it. Oh Goes they were just there he's pointing to the

Mount of Olives That's where they just came, you know where they were praying, you know at night and then from the upper room

Caiaphas's house is like a stone's throw away It's like it's like two blocks like a block or two away, but those are smaller blocks not like New York City blocks, right?

where Christ was crucified and Buried were within eyeshot

So I would like it just really brings it out when you could sit there and I could just picture picture Peter on that day of Pentecost Giving that sermon is pointing

To all the locations because you like we think Everything is so big and so wide and expansive because that's what we're used to and yet.

It's not everything was so close to one another It really was quite interesting.

That's amazing. Yeah, I would I've always wanted to go to Israel Funds are not there

Just just to be able to to stand in the places like that and then be able to see all those places that's a

That's that's got to do something to you as far as the reality of the scriptures

It does, you know the other thing and I should also mention before we get started with discussion tonight if I if I have to mute and try to prevent from coughing

I'm still I have not really recovered story From my trip to Israel I came back from Israel with a bladder infection

Had to quickly get medications for that and Headed out the next day to Shepherds Conference from Shepherds Conference.

I Ended up getting pinkeye At Shepherds Conference. I ended up having blood pressure issues

So my blood pressure was raised. I Come back from California, my blood pressure is doing great right now

However, I ended up with a cold that's going on two weeks. Now. I can't seem to shake it.

So If I cough and things I'm sorry I will I'm trying not to but the other thing about being in Israel that I realized drew we take for granted is water

Yeah, one of the things that blew me away is the Fact that water is such a big deal

Like we're up in Masada, which is Masada was Herod's like summer retreat, I guess We don't know if he actually ever went there, but he was building it and they had a huge Cavern for water that they had to put bring bucket by bucket bring the water up and put it in there

They they had you know, didn't they there were some ways they had for collecting rainwater but they filled this thing and everywhere we went the first thing you'd see is these huge wells or Cisterns and it made me realize how important water is

In fact Joel Joel Kramer was with us. He's an archaeologist who did archaeology there in Israel and Jordan and he had he had said that the one of the ways they know there's an archaeological site is because there is a

Water source and so that was quite interesting so it was really great to be in the homeland of my forefathers as as many in this audience know

I am from a Hebrew background. I'm from the tribe of Levi Specifically the tribe of Korahite.

So I'm what's called a Korhine or Kohen some pronounce it But they would be the those that would have taken care of the elements of the temple and Trace your lineage all the way back there.

Well, the rabbis had there's a the rabbi Who explained it to me? They had you know, this is the thing and we've mentioned this before I know

John MacArthur often says they they can't do the lineages ever since the destruction of The temple in 70

AD because all the records were destroyed the problem with that is What ends up happening is when you have and you you'll see us even today in many

Arab countries the Tribal heritage is very important And when you have that some some people have memorized and can go back 14 15 generations that they could trace their line back and so when you have that with You know with folks

Yeah, the temple would be destroyed. But what's the first thing they're gonna do? They're gonna reestablish that they're gonna start writing it down again

So they they have those records and they ended up being able to do it when when last names became

Used they started doing it through through last names. And so gotcha.

Gotcha Yeah, cuz you know I always thought that was interesting where people say we can't we can't go all the way back there because those records were destroyed

But I remember I believe it was dr. White talking about a book that referenced

That we know when John the Baptist's father would have been in the temple serving.

Hmm So wonder what book that is here. I think it's I think it's this book right here

The Old Testament canon of the New Testament Church that by Roger Beckwith. I think that might have been

Okay All right, well, let's so so I and I should say this

I should say this I Got a picture some of some folks. No, if you remember way back when we had

Zadok on and we we were discussing black Hebrew Israelites. I got this picture and and this

When you notice that the lady on the left That is what a black because she's black skinned

She's Hebrew because she's actually of one of the twelve tribes and she's actually an Israelite because well

She's not only Israeli citizen, but she's actually in the Israeli army and so that's what a black

Hebrew Israelite looks like that was a that was funny to do Matt Matt slick and I were you know walked up and asked if we could get a picture with them and and so they were thrilled and So we took we snapped that picture

It was a lot of fun And then everyone else wanted pictures and Matt and I were just like we just wanted that Because everyone tells us there's there's no black

Hebrew Israelites and and there are so But you just got to cause trouble everywhere you go that's

No, that's Matt's job. He's good at it. So let's I see we got a couple things start already

So let me address some of these before we get started Jason says and by the way,

Jason is a member over at YouTube which they were they've Allowed the the money to they're gonna kick us soon.

I'm sure because they just now actually Told me that I mean this was back in what 2020 when?

Anthony did a show about vaccines and they said that it was medical misinformation But they're not gonna give us our final strike because of it.

Uh -huh But but Jason Jason says so my 13 year old daughter regularly watches the show with me and Recently added

YouTube to her computer so she could start the hermeneutics and theology fun fact

YouTube would not let her watch Your channel it would unless it was not restricted

Which filters out mature content So Wow, it should have allowed her to watch because I don't think we have anything that's adult content in there

Must be all that misinformation from Anthony. Yeah, maybe and so But but we do thank you and what you're he was referring to by the way

With the hermeneutics and theology is our striving fraternity Academy We don't plug that enough.

But if you go to striving fraternity org Click on the Academy Tab there you can get to our

Academy classes, which are free on YouTube. You can watch them So we have how to interpret the Bible. That's biblical hermeneutics.

We have about 80 lessons on Systematic theology

We have 20 plus lessons on world religions And intro to world religions and then we have another 20 plus on how to disciple so those are some courses you could take for free the syllabus is cost money, but other than that It is so and you can watch us right now on YouTube as long as they let us

Know let so let's let's bring in. So I The Simon bent ban is wrong to bring him in first I don't know if he's got

I don't see he or any of his friends have their cameras on yet So he may not be on camera, but the way this podcast this this episode came about And before I bring him in I should do our first commercial bring our first sponsor up but The way this came about is he was in our

Christian apologetics Facebook group, which by the way for some reason right now Facebook is not allowing any of this on YouTube.

I don't know why But I don't see it won't we haven't seen any

Facebook comments Yeah, so I don't know what's going on with Facebook, but it it won't allow us to go live there it just says that Broadcast was was deleted or something.

So I don't quite know why What I could try actually, you know what? I'm gonna try doing

I'm just gonna try deleting those all and seeing if we could add them back. I Don't know.

We'll try. I don't know if I could do that life. It doesn't look like I can All right. Well, that's Facebook for you

Yeah, I mean usually on my phone. I get a notification about when the show goes live and I haven't got one

Okay I'm gonna I'm gonna try so meanwhile While I do that I can do two things at once Because I'm I'm just that talented and what

I what I would like to do is bring up our first Sponsor and that'll be my pillow

My pillow is I I know you look you guys you guys who are regulars here

You know, I love my pillow, but I got to tell you I am waiting to go to sleep tonight

I just got in today the my pillow 2 .0

now what's supposed to be good about this? And if you're like me, I mean I I just I guess I'm hot at night and and I end up sweating a lot and my pillow 2 .0

and I got the my pillow 2 .0 mattress topper and supposedly these will take care of Issues like that with being too hot it's supposed to be able to Well, it's it's they claim it's gonna keep me cool we're gonna see if that's what it does

It'll I mean I may need to invest in in one of those right because so I have a my pillow that you graciously gifted me

And my wife loved it so much she kept stealing it and so I got her one but She likes to keep it really really hot

Temperature wise and for some reason in the bedroom. The the vents are pointing right at the bed.

And so it's like a sauna So so I may need to invest in one of those.

Well, I think you should I think you should and Okay, I think I got these on you you could check some of our our channels there and see whether they're they're alive but if you want to get yourself the my pillow 2 .0

I think they're doing a a two -for -one sale right now if you use the promo code and our promo code is

SFE Stands for striving for eternity. Looks like we got Facebook up.

Yeah good. Okay Yeah, sorry about that and you know weird thing is Facebook told me

That everything was going live or that it was ready. So I don't know what they did.

Who knows I should have tried that earlier. You got Zuckerberg is what you yeah, I did so so with that folks go to mypillow .com

and Check out Everything they have they even have coffee.

I didn't I Yeah, I knew that get your interest. So yeah, they have coffee even

I So hey, you could go get yourself a cut nice cup of gel. Yeah all right, and so Yeah, so that's that was really neat.

I'm looking forward to getting some sleep tonight for that reason. So mypillow .com Use promo code

SFE. So let me bring Simon in Simon are you there?

Looks like you're muted Yes, yes,

I'm here. Can you can you hear me I can hear you loud and clear First off let me let you introduce yourself

You you were so so let me give some a little bit of background right I I run a group called

Christian apologetics on Facebook I Did a thing where I tried to create these chat groups, which was a real mistake

It got out of hand really quick and people were name -calling and everything else and I just said, okay,

I'm shutting that down So that didn't work so well but And and it's funny because I got a

Facebook working in all the groups except that one's Simon that we're in together the Christian apologetics, but you were you were having a lengthy discussion with someone who

I forget About the the deity of Christ whether Jesus Christ whether the

Bible teaches the concept of a Trinity and so I had suggested you come in here and you said you'd love to and so and so first off I'm just gonna say for regular listeners here

Simon there. They're shocked because Many many many times we get people that say they're gonna come in and they want to discuss a topic and then they never show

You showed so right off the bat kudos to you For for showing up so one you introduce yourself real quick so folks can can get to know who you are

Okay, perfect Yeah First off. Let me let me say our praise to the most like God the

God of Abraham Isaac and Israel Thank you. Thankful for the opportunity Where I can be here.

I think I have a few brothers in the in the back Also that that They're waiting to come in.

But what I want to do, of course, I'm I'm an Israelite. I do identify as an Israelite First and foremost.

Yeah, we did had a lengthy discussion in that group I think

I haven't participated in that group for a while. It was lengthy I'm glad that I could have had the opportunity to to actually see what what

I was taught To actually see what you know what we know

And I'm glad that I that I actually got your attention on it and we can be here with Where we can we can have a lengthy dialogue on it

I'm the topic we have here is does the Bible teach the concept of Trinity of the

Trinity what I want to do I do want to introduce Some of my brothers

I was hoping I was hoping for For you fellas to have probably

More persons on so if we can have a really good I think we're gonna have we're gonna have a good discussion here

Yeah, one thing Simon. I'm just Because some of the guys I see what?

To force there's six people backstage some of them. It looks like are in twice

I've been seeing people come in and drop come in and drop but it looks like I'm I hope I don't miss but I know

I asked him for the pronunciation, but I think by by I by Ira, no,

I Forget how to pronounce Maria, but maybe is Maria He's in the

Mariah Right, so he's backstage twice So I don't know which one to bring in So I'll just mention for him if he could remove the old one so I know where he is

So Simon, just let me know who I don't want to bring everyone in all at once You know,

I mean we can as long as everyone just lets one person talk at a time That's it. That's the one thing when we have lots of folks in Is there anyone specific?

You need me to bring in Is there anyone I should bring in first?

Yes. Um Yes, can you tell me I'm who's dear Como Israel By Ra and sure

Shara or sure and With this last one. I don't even know how to pronounce

Adir I ki I don't know how to pronounce that one.

I Ricky I'd Ricky Ricky. Is that it? Okay Yes, so those are the folks that we have backstage with you so Yes Yes, they're all here with me so so you can you can you can load them in Okay Is there a particular one you want us to bring in first?

Yeah, I mean you can you can bring in a Como Como Israel you can bring in Como Israel.

There's Yes Sure sure tuna do

I'd Ricky Okay, and not Ricky, okay, we don't know if I'm Ricky is we weren't able to test his microphone so so no one's on camera

Which isn't as good but all right, that just means I get to be the best -looking one here.

Oh, that's true But but with you and I here it's a low standard so I Look, I don't even they're not even on camera and I'm gonna assume all four of them are better -looking than you and I drew

So let's just start with this I posted a picture of me and Lawson the other day and Justin Pierce commented and he said he looks just like his mom

All right, so Simon, let me let me let you open with your you know you you you had some some things back and forth and we all more gonna be

Kind of working off what you say and and reacting to that So I figured

I'd give you the floor to start. So just if you know

Something you just gotta mute yourself because you're still muted Yes That's Just real quick I'm gonna be in and out so I don't know if you want to bring someone else out of the

The back room to take my place and then when I'm Ready, I'll signal you because I don't want to be here and if a question comes up and I'm not available to jump in Okay, thank you guys so much to have with us on your show

Really appreciate it. No problem. Come on And yeah, you you if you just I'll put you backstage and if you just go in the private chat, let let me know

In private chat say hey, you know, bring me in Yeah Yeah Yes, what you can do what you can do is invite

Bariah Kona and you can invite him in Raya is in let me do this

I'm gonna turn this off for a second. Yeah that way you guys can see the names

This will be a little bit easier and actually now I can see who's muted and not so so that's good So Simon you go for an introduction for us for for your what your position is

Okay, perfect, um, let me let me begin by saying again Our praises to the most like God the

God of Abraham Isaac and Israel in whom we live We move and we do all thing we we do hope and pray now.

We can able to have a peaceful dialogue a very cordial Discussion this evening.

Of course, we do believe in this discussing with respect We definitely don't believe in over talking each other

We believe in respectful dialogue, so I I do pray that we may have a fruitful and respectful dialogue this evening

I Want to first begin by saying that most definitely we do not believe that the

Bible teaches The concept of Trinity and and we would all agree that Not even the name is within scriptures

Alright, but from time to time persons will try to interject the concept

Of Trinity which was not there originally which was not there originally, but persons try to interject that concept by Interpreting scriptures or what

I would put it by misinterpreting the scriptures They can be able to interject that concept which is not there

What I want to go into is a bit of history before I go into the the scriptures

All right, just bear with me a bit. Yeah, just bear with me a bit here

Take it. Take it. So we have one rush. Yes. Yeah Yes, no problem.

So we have here the origins the origins of the Trinity concept according to The world history encyclopedia and I'm going to just give you a brief quote here

Of what is written the the word Trinity actually appears nowhere in the Bible We can all agree to that Exactly so the concept was finalized at the first Council of Nicaea in 325

CE After years of debate According to the

Encyclopedia Britannica, right the the doctrine developed gradually over several centuries through many

Controversies meaning that it was it was never in the Bible to begin with that concept was not there to begin with Let me go a bit further what

I want to show you here is an excerpt from the this Stanford Encyclopedia philosophy

And I'm gonna paraphrase here a bit the history of the

Trinitarian doctrine on the The development of the creeds up to 325

CE it states no theologian in the first three Christian centuries

Was a Trinitarian in the sense of believing that the one God is tripersonal containing equally

Divine persons father son and Holy Spirit. Now, this is what I want to focus a bit on during the first three centuries

This is what I want to focus on no theologian no Christian theologian Was a

Trinitarian in the sense of believing that the father is tripersonal or or God Almighty is tripersonal

The term we translate as Trinity. Of course, we all know the the word in Latin or Greek Seems to have come into use only in the last two decades of the second century now if this term came into use in the last two decades of the second century

It basically is telling us here that the term was never in scriptures to begin with as I read on The gentleman by the name of Tertullian.

We're of course we all Affair with with our name the gentleman by the name of Tertullian is now hailed by Trinitarian for his use of the term

Trinity and his view That it at its last stage consists of three

Persons now despite the fundamental differences from late orthodoxy from late orthodoxy

Where this authorized generally accepted to reduction of practice despite of this is despite this belief the

Concept or the word came into being Later on and it was gradually developed through the centuries through different true

True different meetings that was held to different councils That was held

Historically what we see is that This concept never existed and it only came into being in the

Christian community at a later date No, this is historically speaking.

This is just historically speaking when we go to the scriptures the scripture identifies Something that is that is fundamental

What we what we hold to What we would like to present here first, of course

We we do go into Deuteronomy 6 and verses 4 where it states the

Lord our God is one now a lot of persons probably may go into definition of words to to To show what the word one means

At one point in time an individual explained to me the word a card or a card

Means one or you mean? Yes a card or a card means You got a you got to get like you're getting ready to spit when you

Yes, yes, so the definition of the word is what's important So To kind of interject this concept

They would say that it is united. It means united as one it means one or United as one but but when we coupled

Deuteronomy 6 and verses 4 along With other scriptures because we definitely do believe in reading line upon line.

We believe in reading Precept upon precept here a little there a little this is how you rightly divide the word of the most high

God so we we don't read don't just read one scripture or one verse and then we come to a conclusion that look this is it so We kind of line the scriptures up to understand exactly what

Deuteronomy 6 and verses 4 is speaking about here Here or Israel the

Lord our God is one no it cannot mean United as one because when we read on it out of scriptures when we look at the same in same

Deuteronomy But we want to look at Deuteronomy 32 and we want to focus here on verses 39

Wait, there's Deuteronomy one quick Just I want to Deuteronomy one

Deuteronomy 32 32 and we're reading forces 39 3239 okay

And what translation are you are let me just ask question. Do you have do you believe in specific translation?

Like if I use a different translation We we actually use we we use the big cage of either 1611 translation because we believe

Well, not that you don't use No, I doubt very highly use the 1611. You you could use the

King James. I doubt it's the 1611 It's probably the 17 was it 17 nice Huh 1969

Basically, it's the Yeah, yeah, so what we want to do is go directly here 32 verses 39 so so we can break down exactly what

Deuteronomy 6 and 4 Is speaking about it says here see now that I even

I am he and there is no God with me I Kill and I make a life.

I wound and I heal neither. Is there any that can deliver out of my hand? But what I want to focus here see now that I even

I am he and there is no God with me Now, here is the thing Here's the thing

When Deuteronomy 6 and 4 speaks of the Lord our God is one we identify that is speaking about one and that united as one because I'm gonna use an example here when you're in a family you there's a father

There is the the mother and they are the children of the father in a family relationship

The father acknowledges the mother the father acknowledges the children

All right. The father shows acknowledgement of his wife and his kids, but when you have a

Relationship where the father doesn't acknowledge Anyone there's no acknowledgement of anyone besides him

Then we we must sit back and think for a minute that look

Deuteronomy 6 and 4 when the father doesn't acknowledge anyone with him because it specifically say

He specifically say there is no God with me now if we're gonna say that There are others beside him which the scripture doesn't explain if we're gonna say they are to beside him or They have some sort of a unity then there must be an acknowledgment of that unity

But throughout scriptures, we see no acknowledgement of that unity. I just want to start here

This is what I want to start. This is what I want to put forward and I'm gonna leave the And I'll say this for you guys.

So I mean of much of it. I'm what you said. I'm not gonna disagree with So let's start with where we can agree where we do agree so that we don't waste time on where we agree and we could

Focus on our disagreements some sound fair He's muted.

Yes, that's perfect. Okay. Okay, so so I think we can all I'm gonna speak for drew as well

We can all agree. The word Trinity does not show up in the in the Bible We could agree that we don't see the word until I 320s

I think it was And and I I forgot who now I can't either name just escaped me

Yeah, you even mentioned the name of who originally came up with the term to Julian to tell

Ian So we could agree with that. I would disagree with the historic the view that it was developed over history

Because I actually wrote what he read what he had written in It's the same definition as we have today.

So and So I would disagree with that The question

I would have for you would be And and I will say this by the way you you referenced out.

You didn't give the scripture verse, but you reference the verse in Isaiah Speaking line upon line precept upon precept here a little there a little as a way of interpreting the

Bible If you read the context there That's actually God giving judgment on pagan nations on how

They were doing things. It's it so you may want to read the context because I think you're you're

I think you're using that out of context but The question I have for you first is did people in the first century?

Mm -hmm And we're gonna agree. They they weren't Trinitarians because that the word didn't exist.

So obviously they couldn't be But did people believe Jesus was God in the first century

Okay, so that question is supposed to me. Yeah. Yeah, right

So we're not discussing whether we've been the three persons as one God But the discussion first,

I'm what I'm asking is did people in the time of Christ and after Believe that Jesus was

God Okay, we we have scriptures

During the the time of Christ and even after Christ was crucified resurrected and ascended that the

Apostles believed That Christ bear the title of God Okay, we find we find

Thomas referring to Jesus as my Lord And my

God and we must understand Because I'm using the word title Because it was a title that was given

To him by his father So yeah during the time of Jesus the there were persons that believe that knew

That he carried the title of God Then and after they were persons that that knew

That Christ carried the title of God Now I'm gonna say this folks. There's more

Simon just from my audience to see this is why I asked Simon to come on here and Have a discussion because if we tried having this discussion online on Facebook, it would it would have turned out ugly it just would because a well a

I hate to type so I'm really terse in my typing, but You don't get you know for Simon to be able to explain everything he did

It would be a really long post and then people don't read it, right? So this is where dialogue like this is more helpful.

So Because this really helps me in understanding because most people who deny the Trinity Deny the deity of Christ now.

He's I think Simon saying he does because he's saying it's a title Which is what I would refer to it as as well

Now I do want to I'm tempted to read like several pages from a very authoritative book called what do we believe and The author would be well myself but But let me let me just Say read some of this.

Um, I have a section there on God in the Trinity And what I do is

I go through and I give the passages So I mentioned in there I say while the

Old Testament emphasizes the unity of God At the time allow for the teaching of the

Trinity the New Testament clearly presents the Godhead as one yet existing in three persons now

I want you to catch what Simon said because this is a mistake many Christians make he went to Deuteronomy chapter 6 and in Deuteronomy chapter 6

Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad that the word Echad there's one is many people will say oh that is speaking of a

One in unity hero Israel Yahweh our God Yahweh is one

You'll have people say well one in unity. No, it's one God There is one God.

This is not in any way a violation of the Trinity Because it is the fact that Deuteronomy is not teaching unity and the the word for Echad Can't mean unity.

It's singular. That's what it means So it means that there is one God Now what

I did in in in my book, what do we believe I point out? That the that the three persons are recognized as God and I provide where you see that I mean very few people argue over the the father being

God, but 48 % of the Gospels of the four gospel accounts directly or indirectly

Refer to Jesus as God John having the most 67 % of that book has implicit or explicit

Statements Jesus claiming to be God and many of you are thinking John chapter 8 John chapter 10, right?

we have where the where the Holy Spirit is recognized as God and So right off the bat and and so I'm building up to a question

So I'm just it's gonna take me a bit to build. So what you see is you have

The Father and the Son and the Spirit all being recognized as God you have the

Father and the Son and the Spirit all having attributes of God and You have the

Father and the Son and the Spirit all having titles of God And you have the

Father the Spirit and the Son all doing Doing things only

God could do and so And I don't know if I'm frozen actually because I I was just about to text you and say your pictures frozen

Okay, so it's just my picture. You can still hear me. That's fine, then Text me if I suddenly lose it.

I See my thoughts in a long time ago. Yeah, I see a thing spinning. So so so here's here's the thing that that I end up doing with this is if we have all three are called

God recognized as God have titles of deity have works of deity Do things only

God can do have attributes only God can have Then Well, and there goes

Andrew He did lose it Which means now

I need to let him know that he lost it. All right.

Well While we wait for Andrew to come back Let's take a moment to recognize another sponsor of the show if I can find it

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It just grows your library. So I Would start with the basic and then upgrade your library from there but With that, let's get back

Andrew still not back in Conclusion don't be

Don't be as you But yes, let's wait as you as you wait for for Andrew to return.

There's a brother here I think he should be in the background by the name Israel Okay, and you want to?

Yes. Yes, we will do that Israel. You are now in the stream. Welcome to apologetics live

Thank you. Thank you. Could you hear me? Yes loud and clear great great Yes, was there something you wanted to to add to the discussion?

um, I was going to wait for the brother to rejoin us and Maybe then question some of the things he's saying now um,

I think he Just wanted him to highlight more. He's saying the father the son and the

Holy Spirit and arm. He's adding now He's adding the number three there and I would like him to kind of Show us how far the

Son and Holy Spirit Kind of adds into three how it is well,

I mean there's we Because um You know clearly understand the

Holy Spirit being entitled of the father All right, and we see in Scripture that the

Holy Spirit, you know God is a spirit and we know he is the Holy Spirit on the scripture tells us and the

Lord is That spirit so once we understand that the Lord is that spirit.

I would like to see how he gets to the number of three but um Yeah, so if I can respond to that real quick, so we do see you're correct.

We see God in Scripture as Spirit, but we also see distinctions in Scripture we see the distinction of Christ and then we also see the distinction of the

Holy Spirit and So we actually see all three of them pictured at the baptism of Jesus.

So we hear the father Saying this is my son in whom I am well We see the picture of Jesus being baptized and then we see the

Holy Spirit descending in the form of a dove so you in that one Section of Scripture you have all three

Represented there, but then as we move on through the New Testament, especially through the epistles

We see the we see the Holy Spirit. He's referenced as God But I mean, we we don't see the

Holy Spirit being called father. We don't see Jesus being called father so we can look at Jesus's baptism alone and see the the pictorial represent representation of all three right there

Would you see that as God sended his spirit upon Christ? I would see that as sending the

Holy Spirit because especially when Jesus is talking to his disciples and He's talking about his ascension into heaven

He's saying I must go and then I will send the Holy Spirit. I will send the comforter

I will send the helper So there's a distinction in persons that's being made and we would like to welcome back

Andrew Rappaport everyone give him a round of applause Yeah, I don't my whole computer just completely froze there, so I'm sorry

We it's because we didn't pray beforehand about Technology as we usually do the technology not failing and it failed.

All right I'll turn it back over to you

Andrew bring me up to speed. What what did I miss? What and I don't know Where did I drop off?

Um, so I don't remember what you were saying Specifically, but we brought in Israel here if you want to I don't know how you brought up the names before.

Oh, you just gotta get rid of the banner Okay So here there we go

So so we brought in Israel and he was waiting for you to come back Because he wanted to know and this was what kind of what

I was addressing as you were returning Where do you arrive at the number three?

In terms of the Trinity because we see the father the father is referenced as a spirit and then we see

Christ So, how does that come about with three? And why is it not at?

Jesus's baptism that the father is just sending his spirit rather than the Holy Spirit the distinct person of the

Holy Spirit Well the way we come up with three is because we see a reference to the father

We see a reference to the son and we see a reference to the Holy Spirit So that's where the three comes from that doesn't necessarily identify three separate

Individuals do if we see the father We see the son and we see the work of the spirit and many times we see the father

As a matter of fact Christ as he quoted on the scripture, you know look for Thing 16 he went into the synagogue and he he read in the scripture and he said the

Lord has anointed me with his spirit referring to his Spirit, so the separation now from the father in the spirit arm is yes is what

I'm on So at Jesus's baptism You see

Jesus being baptized. He's physically there you see The Holy Spirit descending like a dove and you see the father speaking out and so you see three separate

Persons you you see a distinction and so When you look at this, you know, we can't say that We end up having to recognize that there is some distinction with all of them and yet well, what we see is

That they all let me let me ask this actually Israel. I'll ask you this of you In and this is just getting it's hard for me to move for some reason.

My mouse didn't come back so I'm using a track a trackball, but In in Colossians 1

And verses 15 like 15 well 15 down to like 18, but but let me read this and and the question

I have is is Did G is Jesus the creator according to this is Jesus the creator of everything it says

Who is in the image of the invisible God the firstborn of all creation for in him all things were created both in the heavens and on earth visible and invisible whether Thrones or Dominions or rulers or authorities all things have been created through him and for him

He is before all things and in him all things are held hold together And he is the head of the body the church

Which is the beginning the firstborn from the dead so that he himself

Will come to first place in everything So with that is is that teaching that Jesus is the creator of everything?

Um, I think that is That might be your interpretation Because as I read that scripture,

I see Jesus being referred to as the first creature So if he hisself was a created being

I don't see how he can be the creator of all things Well, okay, but let's let's read this again verse 16 says for in him all

Things were created. So if he's a created being Then he he would have to be if you're saying he's a created being he would have to that would be an error is

Is he referred to as the? First born to create the creature of all things

Well firstborn as we see through scripture doesn't mean the first in order born

Isaacs referred to the firstborn and yet Ishmael was born first So it has to do with Inheritance rights it has to do with pregnancy.

Basically you see this when it didn't stop with firstborn What do you mean?

The it says also the first well What I'm saying is the word for born does not mean only a birth order a physical birth order

It it also has the idea of preeminence which as in the context here.

Everything is about Christ But it says for an in him meaning Christ all things were created

Now if Christ if all things are created in Christ Then Christ wouldn't be able to be a

Created being Because he'd have to be able to create himself

Do you do you understand these see what I'm saying with that? Well, let me just add in there as well.

If you just go to John 1 you see the eternality of Christ Right there so John 1

Lays out that Christ has always existed from eternity so he can't be a created being if he has always existed yeah, and The reason

I was gonna bring and I don't know if we lost Israel maybe Simon or one of the others might be out to comment, but Is because when you look in Isaiah I Got to look to the 44 24.

It says that Yahweh alone created No one helped him so You look at these two passages if Jesus created everything

But Yahweh created everything that Becomes a problem if Jesus isn't

God and that's why I don't know where I where I got cut off, but I'll just say What I was trying to ask my question to Simon was when we look at when we look at the fact that the

Father the Son and the Spirit are all referred to as God have titles of deity have Attributes that only

God can have do works that only God could do and yet they're seen as distinct from each other

Looks like Israel. We lost Israel. Okay But so I the Trinity was a solution to a problem.

The problem was how do you have these three? Persons all being referenced as God and yet there be only one

God And so that is why they developed the idea That's taught in Scripture of the

Trinity that being that here's here's what they see in Scripture they can't we don't we can't explain it well, and so we define something that we then just Give a definition to to explain what we see, but I'll agree the word

Trinity is not there. It's not in Scripture but it but the concept is The I mean even from you know

The very first book Genesis because clearly we see there before God starts creating

You know, he's he's creating human beings and he says let us make man in our image So, you know the who's the us and it's also curious why

God's name Elohim is plural the singular form of Elohim is

L and And so Simon, I don't know if you if you want to respond to any of that Yes, I can.

I definitely want to Say something before The brother Israel returns.

We shouldn't be back soon Okay, I'm gonna want to touch a bit here because the question that he asks is how did how did you arise?

at a number tree and I've been I've been looking at that because When I read the scripture,

I I don't see Three individuals. I I see one individual that carries three separate title

But what I wanna I wanna okay Can I stop there and we deal with that one first so What do you think about what

I said about Jesus is baptism right because don't you see three Persons there don't you see the father's speaking?

And the spirits descending as a dove and Jesus is being baptized when

I read that scripture honestly speaking I Do see I we heard the father's voice

Speaking from above we saw the son and The dog was a representation it wasn't necessarily

The the the physical Representation of of the spirit it wasn't the physical or should

I put it? It wasn't a physical being of Of any

Person, but it was a representation that look the spirit is upon the Sun But then when we we look at scripture the scriptures shows us clearly here

That it always explains that That it's the the spirit of the father his spirit

Possessive pronoun is not something it is not a separate entity The scripture that the brother quoted

I think it's um, it's 2nd Corinthians 3 and verses 17 Yeah Because before you move to a different passage so Jesus is is there being baptized, right?

Right. So in the in the passage Jesus is being baptized. Yes, and and the father we're hearing the the father

They were hearing the father's voice It's clearly not Jesus speaking It's the father speaking.

So do you see there's a distinction there? Well, let's also look at Jesus in Yes, yes

Doesn't allow me to answer Andrew's question. Let's allow me to answer Andrew's question. So we do see a separation between the father

We do set a separation between the father and the son All right, but but I'm still trying to understand.

How do we how do we interject the number three there? This is why I wanted to ask a question before we can actually get into that Okay, but here so here's the thing do you do you see this that John sees the spirit ascending as a dove

Do you see that? Representation, I think what it's always representations showing him that a spirit is on the

Sun but You can't separate the father's spirit from him.

That's what I see because again 2nd Corinthians 3 17 the

Lord is that spirit there in the separation between the father and his spirit All right, it belongs to him.

There isn't there. It's not a separate entity or a separate being. It's not a separate persona

It it it's the father spirit. I don't know you understand where I'm coming from I don't see

I don't see three separate persons here in that scripture

Okay. Well, and I and I just tried to point it out to you. It's you know, so you see the father and the son you see those two and We're seeing the dove is the three that's that's why we say three because there's three

That are referred to there's God the father there's

Jesus you know the son and then there's the spirit and So there's those three that we see this this distinction of them at the baptism

And so that so I'm trying to answer the question why we see say three It's because we're trying to resolve this issue that we see three persons that are referred to God and then we're sign that with the one

God Excuse me, if I may interject When we look at I want to introduce you so folks know your voice on the audio.

This is shark now. So sure welcome Yes Yes, this is

I'm sure to do. I'm first off must give our praises to the God of Abraham I second of Israel, right and It's you know, great honor and privilege to be on you guys podcast here in this discussion and You know,

I as my brother In young said we like to discuss in everything decently in order and You know

Thank you Right, but I'm back to where we were right here in arms since Matthew chapter 3 at Jesus baptism, right?

The scripture did not on told that the Spirit of when we talk about the spirit of God, right?

Because if we read it, right it says I'm that this is not true tree and verses 16, right?

It says and Jesus When he was baptized Then up straightly out of the water and lo the heavens were

Unto him and he saw the spirit of God Descending like a dove.

So To note, right it wasn't a dog, right?

It was The way that it came, right? It was the spirit

It wasn't a dog, right I didn't say it wasn't of Right and and and we see directly here right it say the spirit of God, right and No, when we look right at arm second

Corinthians tree and 17 which arm My brother is recorded, right?

Give me that again. Second Corinthians. What three? Yeah, three and 17 17 yes

Whereas let me just some rest my hands on I could you want me to read it?

Off it right here. Yes, it said know the Lord is that story and where the spirit of the

Lord is There is liberty. So we see that the Lord is that spirit. So when it says

Speaking of right in arms since Matthew chapter 3 here and verses on 16 because even to when we look at Ephesians chapter 4

And we read verses 6 it says one God and father of all is above all

We You know because as my brother Simeon in his opening remarks, you know, you know any direction right and Let me use on description

Isaiah line upon line precept upon precept, right? That does not go only for You know one thing or two things that goes for everything and especially when we come to scriptures, right?

Because When we all agree that God is a paper which arm

I think my brother on you right, you did agree that God is a paper right and The chief is

I didn't I didn't hear I'm sorry. God is a what a title. Oh Word God, well, you know, no, no.

No, I didn't I said that I we agreed that there were titles For No Okay, so when we look at Exodus chapter 7 and verses 1 1 yes 7 and verses 1

And the Lord said unto Moses see I have made thee a God to Pharaoh Okay, no right there right here so we see the type of God what's being given to Moses We see because um, as I said, um, it's a title

Because we see Moses is wearing this type right here because this is the

Almighty is telling on Moses that you know, I have made thee a God Okay, I guess

Hold on what one one bit for for a second there Are you aware and You may not be

I'm gonna assume you you may not be but are you aware that that there is no word in Hebrew there for God The the translators put that in there

It's not in the You're missing the point when we read this in Hebrew, I'm looking at the

Hebrew There is no word there for the in the English translators put that in there

That's not what the Hebrew literally says Right You're claiming that English translators put this word there, right?

So there wasn't no word there. That is what you're actually saying yeah,

I'm looking I'm looking and don't see the I don't see a word for God there

Though the word Elohim was being used The word Elohim was it's not it's not in the

Hebrew. That's what I'm saying to you I'm telling you the word Elohim is what was being used in the

Hebrew, but I'm telling you it's not in the Hebrew I'm sorry.

I'm just I'm looking at the Hebrew and it's not there. It's not what it's saying. So so when you're telling me it's

Let me hear what it said well Like I'd read it in English is what

I would do But no, no, no, I would like you to read it from your text as you said, you're looking at the

Hebrew And it is not here. So what do you have there in the

Hebrew? So what I'm saying is that the word that the word that you would have there

Isn't is for God is not appearing in the Hebrew text There if it's not there that's the

I guess Therefore Are we saying that this scripture is null and void?

Is that what we're saying here? I'm just saying that I'm saying the argument you're making based off English Would wouldn't be because I don't know

You know, first off he's saying He's he's saying

He's saying he made him a god to Pharaoh So even if we take the English even in the

English, it's not claiming that Moses is a god Right, if I see right

I make you a ambassador Say England and you a ambassador a simple question

So Because Right Let me let me try to read this

Okay for you and and see I mean It's gonna be a little bit hard because I'd have to kind of translate but you know

I guess the thing is is that If we're going to look at this

Right, well, let me let me ask this question from you Char right.

I think I pronounce the right char Would you would you hold to? the

Hebrew being more important than the Than the

English I hope to be on for the text that is being recorded right and Basically, right if you're saying right that arm when you read

Exodus 1 and Exodus 7 and 1 right it says in English I'm going to quote and then

I'm going to follow up with the other Aspect of what I'm getting at right? It says and the

Lord said unto Moses See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh. No What you're seeing that the word

God is not there in the Hebrew text So therefore there must be something there because the text

Company arm board sees and the Lord said unto Moses see I have made thee what did he made made

Moses? So there must be something that he made Moses that has to be placed there.

So now what was being placed there? If it is not

God it right, what was it? Okay Do you let me ask this?

Do you know how translation works? So we have going and Cuomo is asking what's the

Hebrew the Hebrews of Masoretic texts is is to his question so when we when we translate

Words don't have always a one -for -one meaning For example, if we look at Trying to think well, let me let me do do son.

I I do know if I was to translate into English the

Cantonese word for happy. So what we have is happy in in English Translates open heart in Cantonese now, it doesn't mean

I'm cutting my heart open, right? but There that's the the so words don't

Translate always the same and sometimes and when you're doing a translation you have grammar and things that don't seem to fit

So what do people do they they put in? They'll put in Words to make it read better or be smoother and I'm saying even even

Taking the the word God the way it's it's listed there He's he's not saying that that God made

Moses a God Because if he's if you're saying that then there's two gods and and now we have a different problem

Because now you're saying that there's two gods when scriptures really clear. There's only one God My brother

Andrew, right Oh right here the point that you're at right That's the reason why

There's a poem called Almighty God because the reason why

We see that the father bears that title Almighty is because when ritual scriptures we see terms of mighty gods

Right Real quick just to understand background.

Are you by any chance a Jehovah Witness? I am saying to you that it is a differentiation right because When we speak of one, right

You see that's where the problem is, right? Because here we are speaking of one

God, but then you're Interjecting tree into this one, right?

whereas I Don't see tree being one. I see one being one because Even to the person that you're claiming is a part of this

Trinity, right? Which is Jesus. I see him saying that You know

This is life eternal. So that they might know thee the only and when

I look at the word only I don't see a Addition of anything to only and when we look at and if we should have research

Or the etymology right or the origin of the word right as to where it derived from Right only means singular, right?

And he said that Only right the only true God right and That's clearly tells you that is only one true

God, right? And now if it a conjunction come and Jesus Christ So then he aligned the only true

God to be in his father and now he's saying and me Right, but he did not align himself as to well, um, you know, he being you know we're in the

Feet of his father right because I'm as I said my brother I'm Simeon's clearly before right

Chose This right that I must be upon I am precept upon precepts, right?

Because we have to rightly divide the world of the most times So that is why when we come back because I don't really want to move from Exodus chapter 7, right?

I want us to get back there, right? Let me ask you turn to one verse, okay, yes

And I want to see what I'm just curious to something. It's gonna be John 1st

John, sorry 1st John 1st John 5 verse 7 and let me read that It says for there are three that bear record in heaven the

Father the Word and the Holy Ghost and these three are one and there are three that bear witness on earth the

Spirit and the water and the blood and these These agree as one

Would you would you believe that that is teaching that there's three in one

First 1st John 5 7 says for there are three that bear that bear record in heaven the

Father the Word and the Holy Ghost and these three are one is that teaching

That the three the Father the Word which is Christ and the

Holy Spirit that these three are one is Is that what it's teaching? The scripture you just called here is

First John 3 and what you said 5 5 7 1st

John 5 7 Yeah, sorry It says for there are three that bear records in heaven

The Father the Word and the Holy Spirit and these three well, well, that is exactly what you're saying here, right?

This tree is three titles. It is not three individuals, right? Because um, no when we look at Right Is the father is the father the referred to as the word or is

Jesus Christ referred to as the word? the word is The father and the father place his word in Christ that is right at the baptism

You see that or that the Spirit of God that came upon? Jesus that is how you understand it was the anointing the word came upon him to go forward and do his father's bidding

That is why the scriptures say that God was in Christ. So Okay, so sure

John chapter 1 makes it really clear in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was

God and The word became flesh and dwelt among us

So this is speaking of you're saying the father not Jesus so Right In the question that you're asking here in St.

John 1 and verses 1 when you look look at it Right, you see

You know, you see Jesus right that is what you see when you look at St. John 1 on 1, right?

well When we look at this You see

I Would say it's Jesus because it says that he became flesh

We see that he he came amongst his own his own Denied him. Mm -hmm, right?

I mean if we read through this, right? Let me just read it says in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was

God The same was in the beginning with God now that makes a distinction there.

Yep. Whatever the word is Isn't the father because he's saying he was with the father

Well, not only that if you look at the word was with God that phrase in the

Greek pro stone They own means face -to -face Okay, here here here let me show you where I differ and why it does not speak of Jesus Let me show you why

I You know Disagree with arm what you just put forward you okay, right

When it says in the beginning was the word right and the word was with God and the word was

God Now we need to understand right? This scripture is speaking about one individual

Only one it's like I'm saying Me and my word is one

But how can you be with yourself You can't

Versus to us yet, right because I'm going to show you some you know, so the tree six and nine right some country 33

Yes, versus six, right? It says by the word of the Lord where the heavens made

Uh -huh, that's it. That's like his voice So I'm going to go down to versus 96 for you speak and it was done

So this is the word that it is speaking about in St. John one and one you see you have to be that is why

We need to understand how you know, we rightly divide the world Right you see it as being

Jesus and I'm telling you I see it as it is the father and as you speak this word

Because even to when we look in Deuteronomy He said I will raise up a prophet among you and place my word in his mouth

So whose word is this prophet going to be speaking? It is the father's word that is within him

He's speaking so so so that is why I see you see Jesus But I see the father on his word is one which is the father and he placed this word at the baptism

In Jesus to go forth and to do his work. That is my description. God was in Christ Reconciling the world unto himself

Okay, so let me um, and I know we're gonna try to Wrap up. I'm gonna give you 15 more minutes and then we'll go to questions

I I see Nicholas backstage as well and I want to be able to he may have a question for us for tonight

So let me just say a sure so you're right. Let me agree. We do have to be careful on how we interpret

One thing we can't do is what you just did which is to take an English word and Assume it always has the same meaning everywhere.

That's a logical fallacy known as a fallacy of equivocation to take a word That could have two different meanings and assign it a single meaning in in both cases

So the in this case the word word Has two different meanings it can be a spoken word or as in John 1 it cannot be a spoken word because it

References a person just if we read it It says verse 3 all things were made by him that him the word is a him and without him

Was nothing that was made. So whoever that whoever this word is Created everything that was created now

We can look at Colossians 1 and we saw that was Jesus who created everything we can look at Isaiah 40 20 of 44 24 and see

Yahweh is the one who created everything So this is the thing this is speaking of Jesus because it says and the and the light shineth in the darkness darkness not

Comprehended it there was a man sent from God whose name was John and he became a witness

So then we know this is John the Baptist, right and it's talking about him being a witness of who of Jesus and It says and the word was made flesh and dwelt among us and We behold his glory the glory of the only begotten of the father full of Grace and truth.

So you're saying the the word is the father and yet it's saying he's the begotten of the father

This is why we see a distinction Jesus My brother and you again, right

As we look at the scripture, right We clearly see a

Different a distinct separation in what is going on Right You're saying that when we read on st.

John 1 and 1 it is speaking about Jesus, right? Yes But here we see right as you should because This is according to your understanding right that Jesus is the person that created all things.

I give you a scripture Right and it said

Right Right, we're as it said by the word of the

Lord were and were the heavens made and all the Did you

I don't know if maybe you didn't hear what I said, there's two different meanings for the word word the the spoken word and Then in John he's using that speaking to folks that would understand

Greek and Know the word and we're and it's referring to a person

It's clearly referring to a person in first John because it says that the word became flesh the word created everything and The word was witnessed to by John the

Baptist that he bore witness of the word So, let me ask you how could spoken words take on flesh

How can a spoken word? Have been witness be witnessed by by John the

Baptist How could that be Can I can

I interject a bit here Sure, is that so you you could hear? Simeon yes, that's me.

So you're preparing to go into question, but let me Let me answer that question that you asked

So basically in John 101 it explains that in the beginning was the word and the word was

God This is speaking about the father When we read down it explains that Jesus Came with his father's word because when we read in st.

John 10 Just made it clear that the word that is speak it doesn't belong to him. It is not him

He's not speaking about himself, but he's About the father. I'm briefly paraphrase

All right. Let me let me go into st. John One minute I actually would say while you're looking at I'll say

I think it's a bad bad passage to bring up John 10 because Jesus claims to be

God in that passage and the Jews want to stone him for that claim so Okay, so here we go

St. John 14 of verses 10. Let me let's just go there very briefly and before I ask a question here

Believers know not that I am in the father and the father in me now listen to this carefully the words that I speak unto you

I speak not of Myself but the father that dwelt in me so Christ made it plainly clear that the word it doesn't belong to him

So when you read John 1 verses 1 The word was God the word is

God now Let us let us look at and go back to the scripture that you posted here for John 5 and verses 7 the brother

Chartier to explain that this is speaking about three titles of one Individual because the scripture said the father son the holy

Sorry, the father the word and the Holy Spirit and these three these three are

One which shows that It's basically three titles of the same person because when you read

Verses 8 it also goes on to explain three other thing and it explains that look

John 7 John 5 and 7 is speaking about God himself and John 5 even 8 is speaking about man

It is basically in context It's basically telling you who rules heaven and earth the father rules heaven and he placed man over the earth

So it's basically speaking about one individual and not three separate persons

No, let me just interject this really quick because I mean I can go into titles of the

Sun really quick on that I'm gonna and I'll actually I'm gonna give you see me in a much better argument.

I brought up the first John 5 passage and I'm sure many in the audience were immediately going wait

Andrew You do textual criticism and you should know that passage isn't there in the

Greek. Thank you. That's been Okay, there is

There was a reason I brought that up I actually brought that up for the earlier discussion where a word could not be there

We can't base everything off of the King James as if it is inspired and the

English translations inspired Because that passage I read in 1st John is actually not in the

Bible It was added into an English translation based on textual variants that work their way in through different Greek texts.

Well that specific text was kind of a made -to -order text for Erasmus because He was asked by the church

Why didn't he include the Trinitarian formula and he said there was no Greek text that had it and so someone made one for him

And then he put it in in his third edition from the Latin from the Latin. That's right.

Yeah, which reads differently. Yeah So here's the thing. Sorry for cutting you.

I don't I don't believe in I don't believe in speaking of an individual Sorry, sorry for interjecting this really quick Whether it's not there in the

Greek or it's there in the Hebrew or not, I Don't want to go there

We brought up the text and we're discussing what the texts say So this is what we're putting forward.

The thing is what I mentioned earlier in the introduction is that When you're speaking about more than one persons in a family

Remember I explained to you that there must be Acknowledgement if there is no acknowledgement, then what are we speaking about?

All right We see where the father did not acknowledge anyone else, but then there's an equally important Scripture in the

New Testament st. John 17 of verses 3 where we see the son Acknowledges the father

But he does not acknowledge the Holy Spirit as a separate individual when we read st.

John 7 and verse 3 now that is very important when we're looking at the the topic of Trinity because if If you can explain that the

Bible teaches that concept Then you have to show the father acknowledges

Yeah, one minute. Let me read that very quickly st. John 17 and 3 and this is life Eternal that they might know thee now.

This is this is Jesus speaking here that they might know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent now

Here that is that Between the father and the son right there it like that's why

I'm going to that in a bit But I want to look at this word only Yeah, I'm gonna go to that a bit, right?

But I want to look at this word only because this word air holds a lot of weight. Why is

Christ saying that his father is the only true God why why why doesn't he acknowledge the

Holy Spirit as The true God why doesn't he acknowledge the

Holy Spirit there with the father and himself Yeah, I want to make sure

I understand your point your point is the fact that he makes a distinction between the father And the son but not the

Spirit means That the Spirit's not God. Is that what you're saying?

What I'm explaining to you is that Christ knew that the Holy Spirit Is the

Spirit of his father and he made mention of that many times But he does not acknowledge the

Holy Spirit in a separate person again But he's claiming Exactly possessive the spirit belongs to the father as we showed in in 2nd

Corinthians 3 17 The Lord is that spirit? So we're looking at acknowledgement as I explained earlier.

You have to show a man of the Holy Spirit there, but there's that There is no acknowledgement

Okay, and this may be the last question I asked for for tonight, but Are you saying that in this passage do we see

God and Jesus as two separate persons Yes, or no?

Yes, sir, two separate individuals. Oh both of these persons are referred to as God So you have two people that are

God Now you're saying oh, but the Trinity is wrong because of because the Spirit isn't mentioned but Jesus is

God Now you have yourself the dilemma That's the thing again, um

No, there there isn't a dilemma if you if you read the scriptures with understanding There isn't the dilemma because we see that the father plays the title of God and his son

No, you gotta understand titles. No the word God only means power and authority if I Haven't it doesn't mean no, but hold on.

Hold on. We haven't focused on I've focused on one thing just just one thing that the whole this whole time is his attributes his work of Creation something only

God could do we have two passages clearly speaking of Jesus Christ John chapter 1

Colossians chapter 1 clearly speaking of Jesus Christ as Being the creator of all things

Then going into Isaiah 4424 that says that Yahweh alone created

So Jesus is Yahweh, but we also see the father is

Yahweh and the Spirit is Yahweh The fact that they have titles of deity the fact that they have attributes of deity works of deity

Means their deity, but there's only one God and that is what the Trinity is. Here's the thing

Here is a thing. Here's the thing. Um as a Bible believer

If you want to accept if you want to accept because of course, there's no one named

God. That's number one There is no one named God. It's basically a title All right, if if you want to say the father is

God you want to see the son of God If you want to say the Holy Spirit is

God one minute Yeah, one minute one minute if you want to say the Holy Spirit is God Well, then you have to acknowledge that Moses is what storm

God also exodus 701 Now the thing is you you can't say that that word is not there in the

Masoretic text or whatsoever text that you're reading It's in the Bible. It's in the scriptures.

So you have to acknowledge it and we have to deal with it No, if we want to say that we are

God then you have to accept that So and that you're saying you're saying that if it's inclusion that includes

You're saying if it's in the English we have to accept sorry Because because when you just said you said if it's in the

King James Bible, we have to accept it and yet the King James Bible Clearly says there's a

Trinity three and one it's not spin and a title doesn't create

Okay Titles don't do anything which Because my

Bible it doesn't say that in my Bible again If you want to acknowledge these three as God you have to acknowledge

Moses and that that actually it Interrupts the concept of Trinity it kills that concept because then there's a fourth individual there that is termed as God That passage you refer to says that he is he's like a

God unto to Pharaoh that doesn't mean he's became God He can't become God because he'd have to be the creator of everything and clearly

Moses can't be the creator of everything There's so I'm just focused on the creation right there

Jesus did create everything whether There is the fear whether it's the

Pharaoh one minute one minute whether it's the fear or anyone else the scripture They'd say he was made a

God. So then we have to deal with that So it all it all comes down to the understanding that has been it all comes on to the understanding has been given and again

I'm gonna go back to you to acknowledgement if the most like God did not acknowledge anyone else beside And him then if I'm gonna say that there are others beside him

They'll be going against what scripture teaches. This is why I wanna Yeah, well,

I'm gonna stress on this God is basically God is basically just God is basically just a title.

It's just a title There's no one named God God means power or authority this power and authority

Only the father can place it on Individuals it was given Moses. That's right.

It was given to Jesus the title of God Are you saying of Jesus are you saying that Jesus was just an individual that The father gave the title

God to and that Jesus himself wasn't divine I think so No, sir.

What I'm saying is that Jesus was not a normal individual just like Moses was not a normal individual

No prophet or Messiah of the most like God is a normal individual.

So would you say? Explaining I don't think you heard the question.

Did you say Jesus is deity? Divine what are you explaining?

Can you break that down for me? Please? Yeah, is he divine is he eternal? Is he is he from eternity into eternity?

Has he always existed and does he possess the attributes of the one true God? According to scripture, we don't believe that that Jesus always existed as a scripture said

Except for us the first creature that was created it was a force for us. No, we don't believe that he always existed

Well, if you go to John 17, like you mentioned and you go to verse 5 Jesus is praying to the father and says father now glorify me with the glory that I had with you before the world was so there

Jesus has existed before there was an institution of time when the world began and Then not only that you have other places in scripture where Jesus himself is saying

I came from the father and I am returning To the father not only that you have to go to Revelation as well where Jesus is sitting on the throne at the right hand of the father and Jesus is also the lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world.

So so we have Numerous places that we can go to that show that Jesus has always existed

And also, you know, we have numerous passages that talk about Jesus having attributes only

God can have like being omniscient That he could read people's minds.

He knows what people are thinking We see that he's he's omnipresent. He could be in multiple places at once after his his resurrection we see that he was

Omnipotent As Before we move on I want to answer the

Brothers questions so that we can clear this up before we move on and I think it's a very important question that he asked

I'm very much glad for that question We do believe that that Jesus was created he was created before the world was created indeed

And he actually witnessed that creation. But when we look at When we look at Revelation One hold on one second,

I just want to clarify because you made it because I want to make sure I'm in you You said he witnessed creation

So are you're are you're holding to the view that Jesus is a created being that witnessed creation?

He didn't do the creating. Is that correct? That That is absolutely correct.

That's what the scripture is saying. You have a moment to go into it very briefly. All right Yeah Yes, sir, yes, sir

The same scripture that that the brother used I want to read Revelation 314 and I'm going to go to Proverbs Proverbs 8 reading from verses 22

Revelation says and unto the angel of the church of the Lycans, right these things he had the aim

Said the amen the faithful witness The beginning of the creation of God Now this scripture speaking directly of Jesus.

He was the beginning of the creation of his father All right.

No, it also says that he's the faithful and true witness. No, what did he witness?

Let us go to Proverbs 8 and verses 22 Proverbs 8

Let's make sure that everyone has it Proverbs 8 we're going to read from verses 22 reading down.

Okay. Um, yeah Yes, it says the Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways

Before his work of old I was set up from everlasting From the beginning or ever the earth was when there was no death.

I was brought forth And Bounding with water before the mountain

Settle before the hills was I was brought forth while as yet he had not made the earth nor the field or the highest part of the dust of the world when he

Prepared the heaven. I was there when he set a compass upon the face of the depth when he established the clouds above when he

Strengthened the fountains of the deep when he gave the sea is decree that water should not pass his commandment when he appointed the foundations of the earth

Then I was by him as one brought up with him and was daily is delight rejoicing always before him

Okay, Christ is saying that Loki witnesses father remember Revelation 14 explained

He was a faithful witness and he was the beginning of the creation here. It Confirms that he was brought forth which shows creation.

He was created and he witnessed who wait What I don't see what his father probably creation

What in Proverbs 8 is proving that Jesus was a witness to creation Now, I think he's saying that that of Revelation 3 14.

Yeah, but he went to Yeah No one else gets that credential in Revelation 3 14

It says he was the faithful witness the being the beginning of the creation of God when you read Proverbs That's couples.

Let me ask with what is written in Revelation 14 Let me just get one last answer and we're gonna go along a little bit long tonight

But in in Colossians 1 15 Who is it speaking of when it says who is the image of the invisible

God the firstborn of all creation? For by him all things were created in heaven and on earth visible and invisible thrones and dominions and principalities and or powers all things were created by him and for him and he is before all things and By him all things consist who is him in that passage?

The scripture there in that passage it is speaking about Jesus the beginning of the creation of the father

So did Jesus But that's but that's what the scripture says

In that The thing in that same verse in that same verse you can be created and at the same time you're the creator

I agree The whole point of it is that it can't be referring to To Jesus as a created being because he created all things

That's why I asked your friend if he was if he was drove a witness because they in their Bible had to add the word other to make it fit this

Almighty God and God view that they have of That he created all other things four times.

They had to add the word other Because the words not there in the Greek why because it's not there

This is speaking of Jesus creating all things which is what first John or sorry. John one is speaking of Jesus creating all things and that's why

I say you have a dilemma if you want to deny that Jesus is God because Jesus created

Everything that was created. That's what it's that this passage is saying. It's not saying he created everything but himself

It's if Jesus is visible or invisible. He would he created it.

He can't create himself See, he's created everything that is visible Invisible heaven earth no matter what it is the passage they're saying

Jesus created all of it That's the point Right you you're reading into the text like to have witness are you good?

When you read When you read that scripture you need to understand it's where Yes, when you read that scripture you need to understand

Where exactly it is speaking about Jesus and where it stopped speaking about Jesus because when you read 15

It says who is in the image of the invisible God the fourth bond of every creature now 15 speaks of Jesus All right, when you read down one minute

When you read down verses 16 going on This is not speaking anymore of Jesus it is speaking about his father

Because I mean what what in the context we all agree that that scriptures does it doesn't contradict each other

Oh, we I agree with that. And that's why you're you're you're having a dilemma here that you don't even recognize

Okay, perfect so in auto verses when we see when we see

Christ Witnessing someone else doing the creation other than himself

Then you have to come to the understanding that from verses 16 is not speaking

But it is speaking about his father because it plainly says here in Proverbs 8

I don't know if you guys came across the scripture before but we have to look at this in Proverbs 8 and 22

It is saying that he was created before these things and he witnessed someone else

It's father doing the creation now when you look at that that in its proper context

When you place it in its proper context, then it makes all the sense makes all the sense because The scripture doesn't go against each other when you place it in that context the other question

I wanted to ask question, but it kind of it kind of Slipped me because you asked me

I'm Proverbs 8 and 22 who it is speaking about Yeah The thing with that though you have to realize okay the question

I want to ask you before you go on Because yeah, the question I want to ask before you go on a bit very very briefly.

Sorry about that. Sorry about that In your mind who is Proverbs 8 and 22 speaking about?

Well, I'm not sure because I haven't I haven't studied it Well, I just said

I I'm I I haven't studied this to be able to give a quick answer I would have to look at it, but I could tell you one thing for sure

A very simple rule of interpretation is you you always interpret the clear passages or the difficult passages by the clear

Proverbs is Hebrew poetry Very difficult to interpret

Where what I gave you in Colossians is An epistle the easiest to interpret it's meant to teach doctrine and so we would interpret this passage in light of the clear and So what you're doing is going to a passage that nowhere does this say this doesn't as far as I could see reference

Jesus being a witness to creation and To take that where we have two clear passages that say that Jesus created

Everything John won and Colossians won You're you're

Interjecting things that will he created everything but himself. That's not what the passages say You're saying oh, but he says he was a witness in Revelation But that witness is being used two different ways now so you take that and you're jumping here and trying to say oh he witnessed creation, but The passage in Revelation and the passage in Proverbs have a different context they don't have anything to do with each other this is what's called proof texting where you grab one verse grab another verse and slam them together and give it a meaning that it was never meant to have and so you know, that's you know that that's the thing but let me

I'm gonna I'll let you get the Ask you your your or make your last statement and then we're gonna go over to some other people in the backstage that had questions

Yes, perfect because I think I see Yes, let me let me

Let me say this here So you actually never studied Proverbs 18 verses 22.

I think I may assume that this is the first time you're you're actually seeing this

What are the speaking if you don't know what Okay, it's not that I'm reading sure it's just that What I'm What I'm basically doing is is explained to you exactly what it's talking about when

I when I look at the true true your interpretation the scripture

The scripture contradicts itself. I mean because what it looks like your interpretation scripture contradicts itself

If I was to read That I give this The scriptures coupled perfectly together through the interpretation that I give

I mean No, I'm not

Now The the answer your question cannot be Jesus in any way or Proverbs 8 because it's it's talking about its

Personifying wisdom and refers to her as a she and Jesus is not a she

Jesus doesn't identify as a girl so if you're trying to say

Is Jesus? Then you got a problem because it's the wrong gender listen carefully

I've heard that before I've heard it before I've heard that person say that Proverbs become wisdom, but Well, I wisdom dwell with when was

God Yeah, let me just say this let me just ask you a question very fast on this particular verse when

Was the ever without one because this versus say if you were saying wisdom was created wisdom was brought forward

Then you're saying that God was without wisdom at some point in time.

No, when was God ever without wisdom? When was When was the other ever with wisdom because So you're saying wisdom is a person.

Yeah. Yeah, but it is saying you were saying listen, let me explain to you, right? You were saying that is speaking Let me ask the question very quickly you were saying that it is speaking about wisdom, right, correct.

Mm -hmm It's a it's a it's looks like this All right One minute one minute

Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna answer the question right so it is the purse personification of wisdom the scripture here is saying

I Was brought forth meaning created meaning that no

God created wisdom The question is when was God ever without wisdom if wisdom was created if that's what

I hear Yeah, the assumption You made an assumption brought forth does not mean created you assume that and that's not a meaning

Brought be being brought Has could have multiple meanings the word brought forth implies

Brought forth implies creation, sir. Check it out, please implies creation if I bring

Created If if I bring forth a paycheck did I create the paycheck or did

I just present it It wasn't there until you brought it forth So so in other words when

I present a paycheck, I take my paycheck and I present it. No, it's not Oh it to them.

I'm bringing it forth. That means I'm actually creating it. It didn't exist Like nothing it was there was nothing and then

I just boom here I'm gonna take to drew and I'm gonna say hey, I want to show you my paycheck I'm gonna show it to him and there's nothing and then all of a sudden boom when

I that's me bringing it forth That's the way the word could be used very simply as presenting so in this this is the dilemma you have is your words have a variety of meanings and you're trying to limit the meaning to one to fit your

Theology and not looking at what scriptures say and letting your theology to be defined by scripture

But your scriptures trying to define your theology is trying to define the scriptures and that's a bad way to do it

So well in with wisdom here, it's not the creation of wisdom. It's the displaying it to man

Yeah, it's the it's saying it's pretty there. Yes, there is wisdom But you need to understand it.

I'm presenting you wisdom. This is it Does that make sense

Simeon? It it actually it when you read a script.

It actually makes it doesn't make that amount of sense to me When you read that scripture the

Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways before his works of all I was set up from everlasting from the

Beginning or ever the earth was when there was no depth I was brought forth when there was no

I mean when you read this scripture With the understanding you can't it is speaking about wisdom when you coupled it with Revelation 3 and verses 14

Revelation 3 and 14 shows Christ Being the beginning of creation and you will think you witness his father doing the creation

All right, that's why the scripture calling the faithful witness now you can't say that it is speaking about wisdom because The father was always the wisdom is always with the father to say that the father never had wisdom

Yeah, and after this comment we're gonna Perfect let me go back to the first scripture that Andrew presented with the image of the invisible

God the forest barn of every creature Yeah, I mean preeminence born implies creation

Who's Abraham's firstborn Who's Abraham's firstborn who is

Abraham's firstborn, do you know?

Ishmael was Abraham's. Yes. Ishmael was Abraham's firstborn and so when according to Isaac being firstborn it clearly is not talking about birth order

It's talking about Preeminence, which if you read the context of Colossians 1, that's what it's talking about the preeminence of Christ the word in the in the context of that time of in if Hebrews Would be one that's also used for an inheritance and the firstborn inherits

They get the full inheritance the double portion. So the firstborn is in with eyes

Sorry about that and and and we know it's the preeminence speaking about the same thing.

Let me let me One minute. Let me explain why it is not speaking about the same thing

The example that you just brought up with the Ishmael and Isaac and Christ and those speaking in the eyes of the most a

God Isaac would have been the firstborn because that was with Abraham wife that Father put him with so that's not speaking about the same thing

No, when we look at Colossians and and we look at relations 3 and 4 to eat the firstborn

Go to revelations says That's fun.

No, go ahead. That's allow me to finish and then you can you can ask the question Yeah scripture in Colossians That you brought forth says that that Jesus is the firstborn the firstborn of every creature

When you look at the scripture in Revelation 3 Revelation 3 verses 14

It tells us plainly here that That Jesus is the beginning of the creations that Force -borne implies preeminence

When revelation says is the beginning of the creation creation doesn't imply preeminence.

Do you understand what I'm saying? He's the head of the body of the church who is the beginning the firstborn of the dead of The dead he's the firstborn of the dead and in all things he might have preeminence

So here you have the context telling you what firstborn is referencing first one of the dead

It has the context very clearly of preeminence even says preeminence

Referencing Jesus. So the firstborn in this context is quite clearly not birth order

Because if it's birth order you have yourself a dilemma because Jesus had to create himself because he created all things

You see so what you do is say all doesn't mean all When the context clearly is saying it's all and then then you say firstborn has no created but the the the

No, I'm not saying I'm not Is all things I'm not saying that you were saying that that Jesus Okay How did

Jesus create himself sir, if if he if Jesus is created and he created all things

How did Jesus create himself you were saying he created all things

I'm not That's all things speaking of the father it was not speaking about Jesus You said this

I asked you in the video who is this referring to you said Jesus But see now that you got caught and this is the problem now that you found a logical fallacy in your thinking what you do

Is just change the the thinking and just go. No now, this is the father

Okay, you said is why I asked you earlier. Is that Jesus said? Yes Then this let me explain this quickly, let me explain this quickly

When I read my scripture earlier, I explained to you think about Jesus versus 16 Reading down is speaking about God the father

This is what I explained to you. Now. The thing is you can't you you can't say what I did not say

I explained to you versus 15 is speaking about God when you sorry versus 15 is speaking about Jesus Versus 16 reading down is speaking about God the father who did the creation.

This is what I'm saying I Am saying no

You're saying it is speaking about Jesus. So with your interpretation just have to create himself.

I'm not saying that I'm not saying that Okay. Well, and this is where we're gonna differ because there's nothing in the context that suddenly makes a change from Jesus to the father

You you know first John or John 1 Jesus created everything Colossians 1

Jesus created everything and Isaiah clear Isaiah 44 24

Yahweh created everything. That's what the scriptures clearly teach But I do

I do want to thank you for coming on Simeon I think it was a good discussion and I'm glad that we we had it.

I'm glad that we were able to have a more You know a lengthier discussion to both yet to understand each other a lot better So any anything you want to say before before we we go to some others?

Yes, it was indeed it was indeed a privilege I'm I'm hoping that we can we can build on this and we can have more discussions to come

Um, I do believe that they are brothers in the body that wants to to say something

But I'm I'm hoping I'm praying that we can build on this and we can have more discussions to come it's a privilege

It's an honor. Well, thank you. And and just you know for you and the other guys just know that I mean

We're here every Thursday night You know, we we sometimes have topics but anyone can come in ask any questions

I'm gonna put Simeon backstage because I'm gonna bring Nicholas and I know he's been waiting for we we we try to end

Minutes ago, but I I thought I thought it was a good discussion. I wanted to be able to kind of let

Simeon finish Soon his thoughts and I know Nicholas has been waiting. So I want to make sure we get to very patiently as well patiently

Yeah, so and I know you had some questions that were not on this topic, I guess so What did you so what?

Nicholas welcome and what questions do you have for us tonight? No, you're good. I enjoy this stuff. This is a learning thing for me um

Yeah, so basically it's different we're going into the realm of Mormonism now so Yeah, so I had some mission

Agree that they would agree, you know, and this should be a concerning thing for Simeon that Jehovah Witnesses a

Cult and Mormonism a cult agree with him that Jesus is a created being

Right Um Anyway, I had them over last Monday. I had everybody praying after the conversation

Because I took Bill McKeever's advice, which is be a good conversation partner gentleness and respect ask questions listen

Stop, that's why I like don't McKeever. Yeah, me too him and Aaron shuffle wall both and So I had them all praying not bill, but Aaron and a few others.

Anyway, God brought them back tonight We had a good discussion and they brought they brought a top dog

I forgot to ask if he was the stake president or the bishop. Okay, but there were three

So I was like, wow, this is interesting but I made it very clear tonight that right that we we aren't on the same path and Though we could kind of agree, but not wholly that in a sense

We are trying to get to the one right destination in Mormonism. It's exaltation is where you dwell with God and Jesus But if you read other stuff in their history, it's actually you become a god of your own planet

You don't really dwell with the Father and Jesus. It's convoluted and crazy as you know but I told them right like as far as the agreeing to do, you know, like when it comes to repentance and and Works, right?

We're not doing the same thing. And so I made that very clear to them tonight

But they want to come back again, which is crazy Amazing it is it's actually not that amazing because you're asking questions and the puts them in a position of being the teacher and and so yeah, they

I mean They might be able to keep having meetings with him we'll see

I mean I will tell you one trick real quick Yeah, you have the missionaries phone number. I do

I have their email and phone number save that Oh, I'm gonna tell you why okay in about two years

You can text that number and start asking them questions because the number stays in your area the missionaries change

Two years you're gonna have all new missionaries so you could do like me and I keep those numbers and I list where the area they're at and Then every two years

I reach out and say hey, I got a question. Can we get together and meet? Yeah I've had

Mormons come to my house. Well, you don't come now because we live out in the middle of nowhere, but When I did live in the city, we would have

Mormons come to our house and I'd always bring them in, you know We'd have discussions, you know up to two hours two and a half hours

I would ask them questions. They would ask me questions. We would have really great discussion. I'd always invite them back

I'd say hey we can have you know, come on back. We'll have pizza next time, you know, whatever you want You know, we'll just hang out and talk and discuss and they never come back.

Yeah, so that's that's where this gets interesting Because I was listening to an

MRM podcast before MRM stands for Mormonism Mormon Mormonism research ministries.

Yeah, you can find out more about them at mrm .org and They were just mentioning how right like to ask the questions and Really engage them and so I tried it out because normally right like because I even asked them the question like Has anyone ever shared the gospel with you?

Have you heard it from a Christian like that was one thing that Aaron has taught like me and all the guys that go out in the summer

Because he likes them to like Tell the gospel that they've heard or if they have heard it and basically the response

I got from them was like well they just told us Jesus is enough and slammed the door in our face or Like basically just bass

And I'm like well, wait a minute. Let's talk about bashing. What is bashing define that? And then

I basically talked to them about what a debate is, right? Like if we have two opposing truths or worldviews or claims

We're gonna have a debate or discussion on which one is correct And it's not bashing unless I start doing ad hominem like what you believe is dumb because you're ugly

Right like that's different And they agreed to that and I actually so they ended up coming back tonight and we made those things clear

But my question was is because they they invited me to General conference believe it or not weird, right?

Yeah a lifetime opportunity for a Gentile like me Well, I assume you're gonna go right, you know,

I Lord willing I'm planning You should definitely say hey, can I bring some friends and then bring

Bill McKeever Eric Johnson, you know? Bring them You You know if I had

Bill's number or whatever, I mean, yeah, I have it. I have it We could talk.

Okay, cool So yeah Anyway, my question was because I remember that Bill Said that you should like if they invite you to a ward or something like that that you should just go because one you get

To see firsthand what they believe and hear it from themselves So that was gonna be my question is should

I go sounds like I should oh, yeah But one thing that I've been thinking about tonight, right like it's really behind the

The casting your pearls before swine thing like At what point?

Does the discussion? Get to that point. Like how how should I gauge that learn that?

and Also, the reason why I ask is because I mean Luke Wayne a good friend of mine

I reached out to him tonight and he told me Based off our conversation tonight because he's like you should do this from John show them all the commands where he says love

Believe in him and love one another right? Those are the commands the easy burden so to speak and I'm like I did that and so He's like well if they're arguing if they have to argue against Jesus to make their point

They're in a great position to see how foolish their position is and so with that I guess

I just I don't want to be doing that the like just casting the truth in front of them to trample it

But at the same time I'm coming to the realization that if we're to make disciples, right?

It comes by doing things like this. So like how do you discern and know when?

Enough is enough Yeah, well first off Rob says is that a reformed beard?

Lol cool guy regardless. So Jesus if I wouldn't say that it's a reformed beard

Hey, yeah Beards but so so here's the thing. Yeah, it's a difficult question

Because you really don't know. I Mean you we could be talking to someone if and it seems like it's going on deaf ears.

I Discussion with you know, Simeon and his friends and What do you see you see that you just people who are

I? Mean they're they don't even recognize what they're doing. I mean, this is what breaks my heart is you know, we could bring to Scriptures where clearly the

Scriptures are saying Jesus created everything and And they're gonna oh, this is Jesus, but everything else is the

Father Why because they're theology Right because they start with well,

I can't mean that because We believe he's a created being Well that they don't quite like we always have to be able to question our presuppositions

And so it's hard when you have someone that doesn't question their presuppositions But at what point well, it's gonna be kind of something at what point you know, like So it's put this way when

I was younger and had a lot more time that point was a lot longer right,

I met with Jehovah Witnesses for like what nine months where they'd come over for every week and They you know, and I just asked questions and at one point

The the wife because the husband started getting quiet more more quiet He was the talkative one, but in the last like three weeks.

He started getting quiet And I'm like, I think he's starting to he was having trouble answering the questions

And so his wife eventually is doing the talking in the last night. They were with me I'm saying, you know, they're showing me these passages and I'm saying but is that the

Word of God or of men? And then she's saying it's the Word of God I said then you can show me from the Word of God and she goes we'll look in the watchtower

Like but that's men, right? I say you could show me just from the

Word of God if it's of God and She literally stood up threw up her hands and said well,

I guess this is of the words of men and The husband stood up and said that's it.

We're leaving right Now, where are they right now in eternity say

I have no idea But I spent nine months now, that's nine months. I spent away from my family

Right, that's nine months. I could have been doing a lot of other things but To me it was a good investment of time at the time right and so so knowing you know

It's the reason it's so hard to know is because I've had so many people that have heckled me on the streets in New York Year after year after year

I'm talking seven eight nine years of being heckled by some of the same people where they'd make they'd be mocking me and mocking the scriptures and things like that and Then they reach out to me or I see them and they go.

Hey, I just got baptized last week. Oh, wow Right. I mean we have half a dozen to a dozen people from our evangelism in New York that have reached out to us and You let us know they got saved after years of mockery

Wow, right, so it's it's hard to say when when is that point?

right Because you don't know their heart Yeah, so what

I would say is you got to look at Your time in your life and where God has you at this moment to spend your time

Now if you're telling me you're you're meeting with them Six hours a day every day, right?

And you're married with young kids I'm gonna go well your priorities are probably not too right, right?

Okay. Yes, so You know, it's it's that's why it's it's a hard thing to know.

Okay, like I can just say, okay when this happens, right? Let me give you for instance. This is craziest story ever a buddy of mine

Chad he Chad Williams used to work for Living Waters. He He's a

Navy SEAL wrote that wrote a book seal of God a great book if you want to get it but Chad and I were out at Huntington Beach.

We're doing some evangelism he and I and he's up preaching and this guy comes up to him and Just mocking the scriptures

Chad saying to him, you know, you need to get saved and the guy's just mocking, you know And Chad just looks it was totally out of character

Chad just looks at the guy goes no gospel for you I was gonna give you the gospel, but no gospel for you today

And I walked away and I'm like and so when Chad got done I walked over like dude

What was with that? He goes, I don't know. He goes. I don't know why I did it He goes

I just I felt like he would I was throwing, you know pearls before swine It just I felt like he was being so mocking.

I I just felt like I he doesn't deserve the gospel So he got a word so as we're discussing at the same guy walks up to us and He just he turns to Chad and goes

Chad or he didn't know his name. He just goes why won't you give me the gospel? Wow, and Chad goes

Now I will because the guy came back humble But he disappeared for like 25 minutes

We don't know. What was he thinking? Right? Well, he was thinking well, why won't that guy share with me? Why won't he share with me and he came back and heard the gospel now pray to receive

Christ at least not there right You know like, you know, how do you explain that G?

You know like your dad just does is like I'm not gonna give you the gospel That's what brings the guy back to want to hear the gospel

Right, right, so he did he he didn't he felt like I'm Throwing pearls before swine and yet that's what got the guy to turn and listen

Yeah That I mean, that's crazy. It's awesome. I made a little

Charismatic joke there for you Yeah Yeah, and the way that I've been looking at it too is like because I am married with two young kids

I have a three -year -old and then Isaiah who will be a year in May So between marriage and they're in the same boat.

Oh nice. It's a fun boat, right? Oh, yeah and Like in the summers, obviously

I like to do evangelism with Aaron and a lot of the guys here in Salt Lake Either in Provo or at the temple and that's on Thursday nights

But I know that I can't commit to that every Thursday night And so kind of how I've approached this situation is like I want

God to be glorified So you can't commit to that Thursday night because you have to be here in apologetics live.

You gotta be watching it a lot Always a struggle. Um, I wish I could be on every

Thursday. Yeah But like the way I've been viewing it is like, okay

Well, first of all, they came to my door because God being sovereign brought them to my door

Yeah through their means nonetheless, but they're here I had tons of people praying for this night that they said they were coming back for which they did

And then they want to come again. So for me, it's like Go and make disciples

The office is like no luck like everybody's kind of just either agnostic

Jack Mormon really atheist really And they don't want to hear it So I'm like, okay if I can't go out all the time like this is

I mean well one thing you could do is Wow, you can just people your children at the same time invite them over for dinner and and have the discussions and let your children see and observe how you

Discuss, you know theology and religion with someone that doesn't believe the same as you

Yeah, it becomes an example for your children as well Right, and and then you're you're also spending time.

You're discipling them though. It's not it's not individual time with them but you're still spending the time with them at the same time that you're you know evangelizing right and It's like Go help your kids to see how we should be evangelizing

Yeah, so that may be an idea but I I would I mean you you have

Aaron Aaron can get ahold of Bill and and Eric very easily, but I would definitely

I mean you get that opportunity to go General conference. I would say you go and just ask.

Hey, can I bring a couple friends? Yeah When when you bring those friends it may be like what happened when

I went when I went with Eric and Bill to one of the temple openings and They were laughing because as soon as I got there

Security came out and started taking photos of me. I didn't know that but Eric had seen it And uh,

Eric goes Eric goes. Yeah, they they've already spotted you and identified you you're on the wall

There's a wall in their security where they put pictures of of people to like, you know

Like be warned of and so when we went for our tour Our tour guide gets pulled aside and told that this is a silent tour.

No one's allowed to ask any questions And and so i'm sitting there going.

Why do we have to be silent? The other people in front of us and back of us are oh, we were told we have to be silent because of time

And I said, but that doesn't make sense. The others aren't yeah So, yeah, they wanted to keep me silent

Yeah Yeah, I I asked Aaron i'm like have you ever Have you ever been invited there?

He's like nope. Yeah, like Yeah, so I just want to be faithful with what god's brought before me

Um, obviously I want to be faithful to the gospel message, which I feel I have um, and I also just I want

I want to do the best with however long god brings them back, right? I mean this has been the first time that i've ever even had them come back a second time

Um before me and my wife used to live in a different part of salt lake in murray And we had the mormon missionaries come over talk to him.

They left they came back again But with like the bishop him and his guy

So actually yeah having them back a third time is rare a second time maybe And then once and to be invited to to get to our conference.

Wow, right? Yeah, but usually they leave um, and i'm actually surprised because At least where we were living before our names were put on that little black, right?

How they block you out and they would always pass by even the new set and here my wife talked to the sister missionaries when

I was working late one night and They basically did their thing where they're like well It looks like we just can't we can't talk anymore because you just you just don't have enough faith or whatever

Um, and my wife's like well just come back like i'd love to talk with you and they didn't right

And then we got these ones so it's like okay, like god's given us a house that we don't deserve like And so we might as well use it for his glory and then also for the discipling of other people

So yeah, there you go. All right. Well, I think that answers my question good. Yeah One last thing make it really quick when you

It basically comes down to like either yes, no type questions Or even when you ask a direct question, right that should get a pretty simple direct answer back but when they reflect it, right,

I forget what the logical term is if you were debating, but they basically They they go around it.

They don't actually answer it, but instead try to it's a red herring They just try to say a whole lot of things that have nothing to do with it

Or bring the conversation to a totally different place so how do you with gentleness and respect right like How do you keep it there without?

Because I feel like it would just go like this Yeah, what I what I do a lot I do it here on the show a lot is

I I rephrase the question And I keep rephrasing the question and after a while after about a half dozen times

I'll say this is the seventh time This is the eighth time And I keep repeating because i'm pointing out you're not answering the question

And that's what i'm doing. I'm, just pointing it. I just keep repeating it until I'm going to keep asking until you answer basically um

Because you're not answering That's what I do. Yeah, you can also say something like um

You know, forgive me, but I don't think you answered the question Let me rephrase it for you. Um And then the more they keep doing that just keep bringing it to attention

Like you're answering something different. Uh, this is what i'm trying to get an answer to okay

Okay, awesome. Sometimes you may have to do a little bit of explaining because they you know, just want to say Make sure they understand that it's kind of like you saw tonight, right?

I I I asked simeon. Okay, who is this passage talking about? Oh jesus. Okay Right, and then you see him switch.

Oh, well, that's talking about the father Hmm right Um, he should have kept reading is what he should have done

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, but he but see he had to do that because all of a sudden that that was a passage that Kind of violates what what he wanted to believe

Right, and so you'll get that and and so what you do is point that out Which is kind of what

I did with him, right? Yeah, you know, I just pointed out like look this is this is what the passage You know that we're looking at is is saying and you're you're like You know like like what when drew brought up, uh, first john or john one and We looked at john one, right?

It's well, this this is the the spoken word of god. Well, how does that become flesh? They they never really answered that did they now

I could have harped on that and just kept asking that one question I I really wanted to focus on the colossians passage, but that's what

I do Like when you see me do a debate, I usually only focus on a few passages

I don't do like they were doing where they where you jump all around Because what they're doing is ignoring the context and and it's a way to avoid

I mean going to proverbs I know I was thrown off I mean, he's like well, who's this up?

Well, it's not jesus for sure Right because it seems more like that's talking about the spirit than anything but Yeah, but you know when you look at the kind like all

I had to do is back up and read the context Well, you just read verse one and it tells you it's talking about wisdom wisdom

Yeah And and that's all I did. I backed up and and while he was saying I read the whole Power the whole chapter and went.

Oh, oh, okay You know Yeah, it's not very hard just context

Okay Yeah, no, great. Um All right, that's all I have. I don't want to keep you guys up.

I know it's later on your end than mine Yeah, it is. So, uh, so so thanks nicholas.

Yeah you backstage and i'll look at the things Drew that you starred here

Uh, I think I think I got too many things that flatter you though, you know, yeah. Well, I doubt it but Uh rob had said always your interpretation

Do they believe your truth is objective truth? Yeah, and and see it's not

You know, this is back to earlier. I mean, it's not my interpretation I can explain the rules of interpretation like I was trying to do with him

All right, he's going to proverbs and i'm going wait, that's a hard to read passage So you interpret that by the easy to read and what is he doing?

He's ignoring the easy to read It's for the hard because that teaches what he wants taught um, jason says do bhi which stands for black hebrew israelite, uh

Believe that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in christ alone as revealed in scripture alone

To the glory of god alone. Just curious No Um, because they don't believe jesus is god right

Um now there are some who do and this this is one of the things is you have a wide range within black hebrew israelites

I mean, it's It's really you can't pin them down to say this is what they all believe

I mean the only thing you could say all of them believe is To say that they all believe that the their view is that the african slave trade

Um was a prophecy in deuteronomy um It is for for them being hebrews.

So deuteronomy 28 Uh 68 and says and the lord shall bring thee into egypt again with ships

By the way, I spake unto thee thou shalt see it no more again and ye shall uh be sold to your uh unto your enemies for bondmen and woman men

And no man shall buy you now They like to omit that part they they well they admit everything except the with ships

That's the only thing they take literal egypt means slavery uh But and and it is talking about slavery here because it says that they sell themselves as slaves, but no one buys them

Right, so this this can't be talking about the african slave trade But that's that's the only thing I could say that they would all hold to um, but no

I don't think they would believe in a biblical gospel Yeah, we were talking about that before the show that they're just they're not uniform.

So it's hard to understand what each one believes and uh When you did your your show with vocab, you know, he he touched on that as well

And that's why we played last week the you know prepping for this we played the torahism two weeks ago vocab last week so tim r says

Uh, john 16 7 But I tell you the truth It is to your advantage that I am leaving

For if I do not leave the helper will not come to you, but if I go I will send him to you so I think this was uh, tim is trying to uh, give a verse for the separation of Father of sorry of jesus and the spirit uh, there's a distinction there and so This helper is god who's gonna come so yeah

Yep All right, kate go ahead No, I was just going to say the next the very next comment is the same thing the the distinction of the spirit

Kt it says but the advocate the holy spirit whom the father Uh will send in my name.

He will teach you all things and I will bring him to uh, remembrance Like I said, so so that's yeah, that's similar um

D has a question. What is isaiah 28 10 referring to?

Uh in context, well if you read the context, this is why i'm always surprised they bring it up and and 28 10 says for it is precept upon precept

Precept upon precept line upon line line upon line here a little there a little they take that As the way we're supposed to interpret the bible is take a little bit from here and a little bit from here and you put them together um

The issue there is that they what? What What that does is takes passages out of context, which is what you saw them do

And they say oh, here's this word. Here's this word. We're going to put it together But those words have two totally different meanings in the context.

They don't care about that But when you look at this, I mean you start at the beginning of the chapter. Ah the proud crown of drunkard ephraim

That's who it's talking about It's it's a judgment. I mean, that's why I find it amazing that they would use this passage

Because this passage is a judgment on them It's it's saying that this is what people are doing

Is a wrong thing like it says Verse nine to whom will he teach knowledge to whom will he explain the message?

Those who are weaned from milk those taken from the breast So when when he's saying this precept upon precept, it's it's he's saying it's it's like They're babies babies, right so the fact that they use this

It's like the context that like think about what you're saying. It's a judgment That you interpret that way

All right, uh andrew said I must say uh, andrew rapaport by god's grace

You have dealt with this discussion remarkably Well, I pray that folks who watch this broadcast in the future will see the absurdity

Of what these folks are arguing the folly of arguing uh with what scripture clearly teaches leads to Absurdity and I agree and and he also had said andrew you did brill you know

You did brilliantly andrew rapaport praise god And and I thank you, you know, it's it's a thing of um

That we have to realize when we're having these discussions. What did you see me do ask a lot of questions

And that's what I do a lot and then I try to point out the the different things that Are being said and i'm trying to get clarification

Right, um, but what we what we end up seeing is that We could look and let me just read this off this is from a book that i've been working on for years

I have all the research done, but that's what I love to do. What I don't like to do is the writing So that's the problem but I I went through all the gospels

Okay and when you look at the gospels there's 1824 unique verses out of the 300 and 3766 verses of all the gospels that refer to jesus as god that that's 48

Okay, so here's how I divide it. You have the words of christ the works of christ and the witness

Okay, so the words of christ he made explicit claims The father and I are one and what do the jews do pick up stones to stone?

He says for what good works are you stoning me for? Not for any good works, but you being a man claimed to be god.

That's john 10, which I was why I was surprised That they would bring that up. He says before abraham was

I am well go back Hold on go back to that first verse you were talking about the even R is what it's a plural

Right, so so there you you also have the distinguishing of the two persons So you you have explicit words

And there's a lot more than people think And then you have the works Okay, what are some of the works he did?

Well? He he had authority over demons Right so some of the the things you end up seeing is he had he he did things only god could do

Okay It's interesting because he had he had titles of deity he had

Uh words explicit statements he but he had works that only god could do such as creation

He had the he claims to have the authority of god. He had the authority over illness death demons weather physical the the physical things

He offered he could offer forgiveness of sin That's huge because who who can forgive sin except god except god mark chapter two

Uh, he he says he is salvation He's he's the judge and the standard of judgment

He's the creator Right, so you look at those then you have the witness the fact that he's born of a virgin

The different titles lord son of god son of man son of david the christ king of israel um,

I am He had attributes like omniscience omnipresence omnipotence eternal holy

He's the source of life He's the sovereign but then there's claims

Of knowledge of worship. He knows what's going on in heaven He reference he references he makes references to god as his father and the jews want to stone him

For claiming to be deity He said the scriptures the old testament testified of him

He's recognized By god, the father is god. The holy spirit is god angels demons his disciples

Other men, but even his enemies the jewish leaders recognized that he was claiming to be god

And so when they say well, no jesus never never made that claim. Yes, he did

And it was clear and half of the gospels refer to that and so let me just end with this really quick It's son.

I wanted to get too much earlier Uh, and and that is this, uh, I just want to say that we we we're praying pray

I encourage each of you to be praying for the the folks you heard tonight uh simeon and and his friends israel and and the others

They they need They need to know christ because what christ makes clear is if you don't believe he's god

You don't believe he's the lord You don't have salvation So so these men are outside of christ.

They have a different christ than the the jesus of the bible And they're outside of salvation.

They're outside of eternal life Because you got to believe Not only in god, but jesus being sent

And That that's referring to him being god so What you end up seeing is the these men need the gospel

So let me explain the gospel just in case they're they're still listening It's the fact that you and I every one of us that was on the show tonight and everyone listening

We're all sinners. We all break god's law We lie, we steal we covet

We're criminals in god's sight God is an infinite being he's infinitely holy and infinitely just and for that reason when we violate his law

It has an infinite consequence God is holy infinitely holy

And therefore we have an infinite consequence And so we would rightly deserve eternity in lake of fire because we are criminals against an infinite holy an infinitely holy god

But god made a way of escape god himself The became flesh the word became flesh.

He became a man And died on a cross that he could offer to us forgiveness of sin.

Now. Here's the thing Why is it? That jesus is

Unique in this way. What is it about jesus? Because jesus being fully god he can pay an eternal fine having become a man he could pay a fine of human beings

That's the difference So if jesus wasn't god We're dead in our sins And so with that I want to thank everybody and next week just to let you know next week's show uh, we will be having some folks on to talk about um,

A tulip festival an evangelistic outreach. So um that i'm going to sign off drew if you can hit end broadcast because my

My screen froze on me. I will I absolutely will and I just gotta say andrew It's fun sitting uh second chair to you and running support for you