The Conflagration That is the Christian Nationalism Debate

Greetings and welcome to The Dividing Line. I'm looking forward, I really, really am, to next week. Getting hit in the road this weekend. And we are going to be, hopefully, hopefully, hopefully, my assumption's Tuesday of next week, we will do our first road trip DL from something other than at the kitchen table.

We will have a functional studio, whether it's going to be the final form, it's obviously, it's going to be a shakedown cruise, I guess we'd call that. You know, see how stuff works together. And yes, shake out.

No, shakedown. No, yeah, we don't want anything falling down because I'm going to tell you something. There's a reason why it's illegal to be in one of those things while it's moving. Because I imagine stuff moves around a lot in there.

I think I mentioned to you last time I had a shirt hanging in the back closet and it was a plastic hanger. And I get back and it's just crumpled on the floor because it just snapped the head right off the hanger.

It's like, oh, that's moving up and down pretty good. So how does that work with television screen, a flat screen that Rich just mounted on the wall just today? Well, we will find out how good he is at what he does.

I told him it's got to survive I -40 in New Mexico and the roads of Louisiana. That's, if you can survive that, you could probably, you probably could have launched with the Starship, a SpaceX, without experiencing an unscheduled, sudden disassembly.

No disassemble, no disassemble.

We don't want any sudden, unscheduled disassemblies. Anyway, hey, let's get the enjoyable stuff out of the way first before we have to start talking about everything else that's going on out there. Just watching Twitter right now makes me just want to, I was going to say pull my hair out, but that really wouldn't work all that well.

It's, anyway, let me see here. I have a bunch of stuff, but I think the first thing to start with, I think, is much more fun than anything else. We have two friends of the ministry who have gotten together and collaborated on something.

I've known about this for a while. I heard the music first and then the vocals ratted in. And so now, thank you, Eric, for reminding me to turn my phone off. That was a thing. Anyway, yes, well, Eric's listening to the program.

So he's talking about ratchet straps and stuff like that. And so anyhow, my dear German pastor brother, who, oh, is that for the, are you going to use it? Where are we going to put it? That wall is curved.

It's going to be, I suppose you could curve it, but yeah, yeah, we'll see how it works. Rich is grabbing the Alpha and Omega logo, you know, like the one we have in the big studio and is trying to figure out a way to put that in the studio.

Well, we'll see. Uh-oh. Oh, that's, sorry that everything just went blank, everybody, but Rich is playing around. He's trying to get the Rich cam working and he's trying, now he's totally messing everything up.

There you go. See, there's, he's trying to find a way to get that into the rig. We will see. I'm not sure how that works on a curved surface, but, and the thing to remember always is that on the other side of that curved surface are a bunch of dead bugs.

If you've ever seen the front end of a semi-truck or an RV in the springtime, you know, you're doing 70 miles per hour down the road and one of those big old grasshoppers flats in front of you and it splatters everywhere.

It's pretty, it's pretty graphic. It's really, really bad. And then it sits in the sun and bakes on and you can sit there trying to get it off. It's, it's worthless. Anyway, what were we talking about?

Oh yes, we were talking about, I think, I think everybody in Twitter needs to laugh and take a breath, do whatever you need to do to chill out because man, I'm going to tell you, it's nasty in there. And I just, anyways, we were talking about my dear German brother, Tobias Riemenschneider.

It's the only way I can say it now. I'm sorry, Tobias, but I can't even say it the way it's supposed to be done. It's just, it's just so German. So Pastor Tobias wanted a theme song for their work there in Germany.

And somehow, I don't know how, I'm not sure if I had anything to do with it. I'm not sure, really. He somehow got hooked up with Tim Buschong, who of course has done our current incarnation of the Radio Free Geneva theme.

And they've put together a German version of Psalm 2. And when I first heard the music, I was like, whoa, that's, hmm, what a fascinating mixture of Arabia and Germany, sort of. And then you do big, bearded German vocals.

That's the only way I can put it, because Tobias has a beard. So big, bearded German vocals. And so the result is really cool. So let me play, I can't play the whole thing for you because it's six minutes and 47 seconds long for crying out loud.

I mean, this is like one of those progressive rock songs that were like 19 minutes long. That's similar, similar thinking here, I think. Anyway, here is the beginning of Christus König, Christ is King.

Oh, you know what? Sorry, take it down. Have to give you the audio because I had to bring it back on this side so I could listen to what I was queuing up. So I apologize for that. But after all that lead in and everything else to have me do that, that's not wise.

All right, let's try this again. Here we go. All right, if you could fade that down there, brother, that would help make it sound like we're more professional. Anyway, just playing it off of YouTube anyways.

Yeah, there you go. Like I said, it's six minutes and 47 seconds long. And if you happen to understand German, if you downloaded it and then listened to it, you could learn to speak German or you could memorize Psalm 2 in the German version of it anyways.

Yeah, that was, I haven't talked to Tim to get what vibe he was going for, but it's a fascinating combination. It really, really is. And someone who I do need to mention next anyways was just texting me and saying, mercy, please.

Because, okay, Michael Fallon just texted me. Now that immediately for some people, oh, he has your phone number? Oh. So some of the stuff going on right now on the internet, like I said, there's a lot of misrepresentation going on on both sides.

If there even is both sides. I don't think there is a both side. There isn't any one definition of Christian nationalism. There isn't any one set of objections to Christian nationalism. There's discussions of mere Christendom.

How is that different from Christian nationalism? And you've got Christian nationalists who are Thomists and you've got Christian nationalists who are not Thomists and in fact would find that to be really weird.

And it is such a mess. And I'll tell you right now, again, I had never heard the phrase Christian nationalism till about two years ago, maybe. Nobody I knew had ever said anything about it. What is that?

I have no idea. And so the fact of the matter is some of the meanest and nastiest people on both sides had never even heard this phrase any earlier than I did. They're not experts on any of this stuff.

Neither am I. Nobody is. Stephen Wolfe is not an expert on this. Just because he writes a book doesn't, are you just gonna hand it to him? Okay, well, I guess he gets to define the whole thing because he's the first one to get a book out.

That's modern, that is so modernistic where, well, this book's been out for six months. That's a long time. No, it's not. Not in church history it wasn't. Six months? It's like looking at trans insanity and recognizing there are literally people in it.

Did you see the people, was that in Montana that they took over the legislature this morning or something and they're, I guess there had some alleged trans member of the body had been censured for doing something or whatever and there's an insurrection.

Because I mean, if you walk into a place that's an insurrection, we've all learned that now. And there's an insurrection and they're chanting, let her speak and I guess it's a guy, I don't know. Anyway, these people act like these are human rights.

It would have never been heard of before a burger film. That wasn't long ago, folks. I'm sorry, there is a, and it's an almost uniquely American thing in some fashion because we're a young nation, relatively speaking.

You go to Europe and you see buildings that are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years older than your entire nation and that makes people there have a little bit longer perspective on things. And so we've got a bunch of people running around who all of a sudden are experts on something that no one had ever heard of two years ago.

And yet they're making a definition of orthodoxy and if you're not on board with their particular perspective which is probably very different than almost everybody else in their viewpoints, perspective, then you're a pietist or you want a Christian king or just all sorts of weirdness going on.

And some of us, I think a large number of us are sort of standing around the middle going, well, I get what that guy's saying there and I get what that guy's saying there and I get what that person over there is saying.

And we're all dealing with new, new, new stuff. I don't care if you were on this. 15 years ago, it's still new. I mean, as far as church history is concerned, it's still very, very new. And we're facing this stuff in the middle of a completely new context.

We didn't have AI, right? I mean, AI is new. CRISPR technology is new. There's all this stuff that's complicating everything. So you would think that most of us, and this is certainly what I want to do, would go, you know, we need to be very gracious.

We need to be very patient. We need to go very slowly. We need to have conversations. We need to hear out what the other side's saying and we need to put our traditions on the table. And that's not what I'm seeing happening at all.

And the result's a train wreck. I mean, it's just a train wreck. What's going on out there? I mean, people, so someone's digging into our background, you see. Because, okay, Michael Fallon, all right?

I don't know how it's a revelation to someone that I know Michael Fallon. Look, I know there's a lot of folks who know that I've done a lot of debates. 181 was the last count that I had, anyways. And if you, I think a lot of people know that, but there's a bunch of people who never even bothered to watch.

Okay, cool, no worries. Everybody's got their own thing. If you watch any of those debates, you're not always gonna see Michael Fallon. I mean, he didn't get involved till, what, 99 was that? 99, when we did that first one?

And then you wouldn't have seen him because we had to self-moderate that debate anyway. Oh, it's still one of my more favorite experiences. Thanks, Mike. There are certain things you can just, with certain people, you can just start laughing just by going, remember?

Oh, yeah! Yeah, anyhow, so, you know, the ones on Long Island with Chris Arnz or something like that, you know, those were before Mike and I met and stuff like that. But a lot of really big ones, Bart Ehrman, and John Dominick Crossan, and John Shelby Spong, you know, these big name debates that we did, the moderator's Michael Fallon.

And he's the one that was behind putting them all together. Very often, he, especially the early ones, he and his wife provide all the financing to make it work, too. And so, it's not a secret that we used to do a lot of, you know, I've eaten the best food I've ever eaten in my life, thanks to Michael Fallon.

Now, he's laughing right now because he's going, what, McDonald's? Because Rich is going, yep, yep, yep, you said it. Mike has tried to take me out, has taken me out to some pretty fancy restaurants, and he will agree now, because I told him this, you are wasting your money on me.

A big cheeseburger would be so much more enjoyable than a $120 steak. It really is. Now what? I'm having fun here, what are you doing?

I got to turn that on. Okay, I was just going to point out that, you know, I had tried to do this with you, and it is a pointless exercise. What, take me to nice places? Yeah. That's true. It's pointless, and you're absolutely right, it is a complete waste of money.

High end for me is Olive Garden.

Well, that's true, but there's two things you never do with you, and that is take you to a nice steakhouse. That's true. And take you to Chinese food.

Oh, ask Mike about that. Forget about it. Mike is, right now, Mike is laughing, because he's thinking about it. I did go to a Chinese place, because Mike's married to a Chinese lady, and so I was just being nice.

And they have this thing called dim sum, I think it's called dim sum, and it, yeah, and it's on a rotating thing, and it moves around the table and stuff, and all of a sudden it moved around, and there is a completely fried duck head staring right at me.

All I ate that day was rice. I couldn't do anything else. So, anyway, we have got a lot of experience going way back, way before all this stuff started. I've played tennis. Michael Fallon was a tennis professional, and he's gotta admit, I played him hard.

I didn't win, but I made him work. That was back when we were both young enough to move. Age hasn't been really kind to either one of us, but anyway, so we've done all sorts of stuff, and in fact, Sovereign Cruises started out of Mike doing stuff for Alpha Omega Ministries.

That's, all those cruises I went on, and like I said, I did have the greatest food I've ever eaten on one particular cruise. There's been a lot of good food on a lot of different cruises, but for some reason, I don't know why, we were on the Mercury in Alaska, and the weird thing about O 'Fallon is he can tell you what year it was, what ports we went to, what the days were.

It's strange, because I don't, it was back then sometime, and that cruise, for some reason, wow, I had the greatest steaks I have ever eaten. They're the only ones. That's why I don't go to steak places, because I normally get something that I would put on the bottom of my shoe.

That's all there is to it. Yes, I'm getting text messages. So anyway, Mike's smacked out in the middle of all this stuff, and he's been doing just all sorts of things on this subject, and Mike knows we're not necessarily, we come to a lot of the same conclusions, but we don't necessarily get there in the same way, and there are times, and I've told him this, I just listen to him and just sit there and go, I don't understand that acronym, I don't understand that technical phrase, I, oh, sorry, I could do that to him if I was talking about CBGM or whatever else, but I, you know, sometimes I'm like, hmm, okay, you know, I don't demand that all of my friends think identical to me or eat the same food or enjoy the same things because most of my friends don't actually enjoy the same things.

Anyway, even though Mike and I can do a killer Keith Green duet, we really can't. Well, okay, we did. I'm not sure if we still could. Getting old, I'm getting that old man voice, but anyway, so we've done lots and lots of stuff.

We've done cruises, and we've done debates, and we've done all sorts of things like that, and so somebody's going, I guess a lot of people are going after him right now, primarily on the quote-unquote Christian nationalism side.

I don't think there is such a thing. I don't think there is a side like that because I think if you put more than five of them in a room, they will start killing each other over their differences, so I just, I hesitate to allow for the simplification that it's, well, it's Christian nationalists versus a non-Christian nationalists and the pietists and the baloney, that's just not true.

It's much more complicated than that. Anyway, they're going after him, and so G3 has gotten in the middle of all this over the past couple of weeks, and Mike's on the board with G3, and so people are going after Mike, and they're going after G3 because of that, and then someone's saying, well, and if I recall, Kosti Hinn had said last year, or was it the year before?

I remember, I lose, what? October, just of last year? Okay, my how time flies, had said that O 'Fallon is on Alpha Omega Ministries board. Okay, this ministry was incorporated in 1983, which is why this is our 40th anniversary year, and we're excited about that.

You can tell by how we're constantly talking about it, which we're not. Anyway, and when we incorporated, we went to an attorney, he gave us sort of a template type thing at that time, the 1980s in Arizona, and we utilized that, and for Alpha Omega Ministries, there's two levels of involvement with the ministry on an official level.

There is a corporate membership, and from the membership, they can vote for the board positions, and then you have the board of directors, and then they vote for the officers. Mike has never been on the board.

He is a corporate member and has been since, what, 2000? It's been over 20 years, I think, yeah. So now Mike is so busy with everything else, he doesn't, all Mike is able to do is text me about every two weeks, and you about every two hours.

No, just kidding. Mike talks to Rich a whole lot more than he talks to me, but I think it's partly just because he knows I'm busier than a one-armed paper hanger and trying to get stuff done, which Rich is too, but anyway, that's another story.

Anyhow, so Mike has been in that position, and you go, well, why not the board? Well, because Rich has insisted from the beginning that since we were doing business with him, there was money changing hands in regards to conferences and cruises, and it's just complicated and expensive, that that would be a conflict of interest.

We didn't want the conflict of interest, and so Rich has said, no, we can't do it that way, and I think that's an appropriate and proper way of doing things, but all of this, I mean, I started, just today, I started chasing some of the comment threads, and I was, my stomach was turned, and I saw, I have seen stuff today from so-called Christian nationalists that it's the same hard gracelessness that has made me say on this program many times before, I don't want to be a part of that club, okay?

I don't wanna be a part of that club. I've seen all sorts of misrepresentation of what anyone's even trying to say from the Christian nationalist side, or even just from a post-millennial theonomic side, which is not identical, a lot of misrepresentation from those that would reject any type of quote-unquote Christian nationalism, and right now, it just looks like a conflagration.

I see nothing positive coming out of it at all because it's just, put your 40-round mag into your AR, rock it back, and start pulling. That's all I'm seeing, and that's why I said, someone even made a meme mocking me for this.

That's why I said, it just seems to me, we are not at the maturity level to be able to be having most of the in-depth conversations that people are pretending to be having, like, well, how are you gonna deal with this situation?

How are you gonna deal with that situation? It's like, we're not there. That's why I was trying to say, with a lengthy tweet over the weekend, I think, that everybody needs to take a few steps back, take a few deep breaths.

Maybe if we could have, go out and do some street witnessing together, maybe some prayer times, some Bible studies on something other than that topic, like, you know, sanctification, growth in holiness, something along those lines.

If we could just back off and go take a few breaths and go, you know, from my perspective, all right, from where I'm coming from. Now, it's worthwhile talking about when someone says Christian nominalism is enough.

Okay, that's problematic. That's an issue. Gotta deal with that. It's gotta be put into some type of context to even begin to understand it. But there needs to be a willingness to recognize, you know what?

We're all new to this. Those of us that are older, I've already confessed more than once. My generation accepted and lived on the basis of the myth of neutrality. We thought that the state could be neutral.

We thought that the state could just continue on borrowing from the Christian worldview, borrowing such foundational principles as rights come from God because we are created in His image. You are innocent until proven guilty.

Comes from God's law. These types of things. And that the state could just stay neutral in these things. Well, it can't. And we were wrong about that. And what we are seeing, the wild eyed press secretary for the current regime was, I just saw her on Twitter, literally saying that it's the Republicans who are keeping the Southern border open.

Just like, what? Trudeau, I never forced anybody to get vaccinated. They really have no connection to truth, reality. Washington State just passed a law to allow the state to take your children and mutilate them for the rest of their lives if that's what they wanna do.

And you don't have anything you can say about it. California's gonna do the same. You know that all the blue states are gonna follow their lead eventually. We've never faced anything like this. We've never faced the fact that COVID tore the mask off of so much of what has been coming at us for quite some time.

And so you think maybe we could show some patience, maybe some grace toward one another and go, well, you know, let me express my understanding of this. For example, it does seem to me that there has been a major shift in the thinking of a lot of people that was prompted by what happened with COVID and the government overreach toward a recognition of Christ, not only Christ's Lordship over the church, but the fact that that means that there are things that the state cannot tell the church what to do.

And most of us had never given much thought to sphere sovereignty. You might've read Kuiper or something like that, but it was theoretical, now it's real. And I have been very benefited by listening to others talking about these things, but I don't live in an echo chamber.

I've listened to people on both sides. I have a feeling that the Thursday in September, I think it's the third week of September, somewhere around there, when the pre-conference that Grace Bible Theological Seminary is having before G3, I have jokingly said, I am the, I am what's on the menu for that mini conference because I am the only theonomic post-millennialist at GBTS on staff.

And so we've got mainly amillennialists, but I'm guessing, I'm not a thousand percent certain, but I'm getting the feeling that maybe Scott Annual might be premillennial, maybe even dispensational, I'm not sure.

I'm not a hundred percent certain. I couldn't tell from some of the things that would be said, but there are differences amongst us. And now Josh Bice teaches for GBTS. So I think he's gonna be involved with it.

And so that's gonna be a fascinating conversation, but it's gonna be done collegially, respectfully, hopefully not with any of the kind of amazing vitriol that is being called for. I was reading people calling for this.

I mean, there's a bunch of, Scott has said a number of things on Twitter where I go, nah, that's not really where we're going. That's not really what we're looking for. And so I could, in our conversation, I'll go, yeah, no, that's not representational, and here's why.

Man, on Twitter, it's, we need to run this guy out of the kingdom for misrepresenting us. How come he gets a free, some guy, how come he gets a free pass and all the rest of this? So anyway, I'm hoping that that's gonna be useful.

I just wonder how much development is gonna be taking place between now and then as to positions and things like that. But I don't see the benefit whatsoever, especially, look, it will be helpful when the next Sweater Vest Dialogue comes out, because Doug and I discussed this, and we continued off of stuff that we talked about when we talked about the Stephen Wolf book, about a commitment to the reality that there can be no fulfillment of what might be called the Puritan hope without a massive work in the spirit of God.

At the same time, I agree with many people that you cannot have neutrality when it comes to worldview, when it comes to government, you just can't. A secular government is a government in rebellion against Christ.

And I do believe that it's vitally important to recognize that when Christ said, all authority has been given to me in heaven and earth, he was not saying, and I'm not gonna bother exercising that for a long, long, long, long, long, long time.

I think Daniel 7 does show the enthronement of Christ coming for the Ancient of Days after his resurrection. Psalm 2, which we just heard sung for us so beautifully in German. Psalm 2 says to the kings of the earth, kiss the sun lest he be angry with you.

Now, I think there's some stuff to be drawn from that. I think when Paul says he must reign until his enemies be put on his feet and the last enemy is put on his feet is death. You've gotta take those things seriously.

That's why I made the move. Reason from the top downward. If you're stuck down the weeds down here, it's always gonna be your strange opinion versus somebody else's strange opinion. Start at the top with the big subjects and move downward.

And the big subject is all authority belongs to Christ. Right now, he is reigning. Not will reign, but is reigning. So what does that mean? Well, it doesn't mean the church and the state are the same thing.

It does not mean that there needs to be a union of church and state. I don't, I'm certainly not calling for anything like that. But the state has a responsibility. Romans 13 says it has responsibility to be the deacon of God.

Well, a servant of God needs to know what God's law is. A servant of God needs to know what God's desires are. And so the church must speak with, and this again requires the work of the spirit of God, a unified voice as to what that revelation is and to what that law is.

The other option is the evil insanity of Washington State, of Massachusetts, Gretchen Whitmer, the insane asylum that is Sacramento, California. That's the other option. The brakes are off. God has lifted his hand of restraint.

And at the very least, if it is God's intention to bring the West down through its own rebellion, then as the ship is sinking, we should be telling people where to find the lifeboats and how to rebuild the new ship.

And this is why this is happening. This is happening because we have spit in God's face we've mutilated children. Parents, let me give you a warning. Five, four, three, two, one. I'll wave again. I'll try to remember to wave again.

My short-term memory's gone. I'll try to wave again to let you know and unmute or something. But my daughter posted, linked an article this morning. Great commentary. I retweeted it, so look it up. I'm so balanced.

Summer is often much more balanced than I am. But she reposted an article about an 18-year-old boy that had been put on puberty blockers. Remember, puberty blockers are poison. They're poison. First time you use that, that person will never be the same, will never have the same level of health, will never have the same level of development ever.

It's poison. Every person who does it's a criminal and will answer for what they've done. There's no, before the bar of God, they will answer. This poor kid was put on puberty blockers. And then when they get around years later to doing the top and bottom surgery stuff, they can't make, because of the effect of the puberty blocker, there's not enough of his male stuff left to use.

And so they, to create a fake female version of stuff, just trying to be sensitive. And so they decide to use some small colon. Can you believe this? The resultant surgery killed him. He's dead. He's dead.

The trans insanity killed him, murdered by the insanity of the trans movement. He's dead. Can you imagine what his life would have been like if he'd even survived? The constant surgeries, the constant sickness, the constant drugs.

Oh my goodness. Every single medical person involved with doing this stuff today will stand before God on the exact same level as the people that did the experimentation at Auschwitz. There is no moral superiority if it's done because everyone's gone insane.

So, I can turn everything back on again. That's the stuff that we're facing. And secularism has no answer. Secularism has no way of dealing with it. It is Christ or chaos. And so I do say to those who say, well, you just need to let the electoral system, what if it's stolen?

What if you find a way to make it always work your way? That ain't working. I live in the most corrupt county in the United States for that. I don't have a vote here. But the fact of the matter is the worldview underneath secularism is in fundamental rebellion against God.

And it will always promote the culture of death. We've got to get rid of the myth of neutrality. Now, the vast majority of quote unquote religious people still believe in it and still practice it. So, I have absolutely no problem whatsoever in saying the church has the responsibility to say to the magistrate, here is your duty and here are your standards.

That doesn't make the church the state or the state of the church. Doug and I discussed sacralism, the difference between sacralism. I asked him specifically. I brought up Fritz Erba. I talked about the video that we did.

And I said, okay, how do you distinguish between mere Christendom and what happened with Fritz Erba? We need some specifics here. And so we discussed it. And like I said, I don't know when it's gonna drop, but probably in a fairly short period of time.

And so these are all, I stand very firmly in saying, there can be no compromise and peace with the secularism of the West that is intent upon the destruction of all the claims of Christ. Secularism is the greatest negation of the claims of Christ over this world that has ever existed.

It's atheistic. It turns men into gods. It turns the state into the object of their worship. It destroys the meaning of life. There's no transcendence. There's no judgment. There's no purpose. It is the negation of all of the life that Christ has come to bring.

So there's no compromise with that. There's no compromise with that. We will always be at battle with that. As long as it exists. And God may well have a way to absolutely get rid of all of it. Let it all fall down and burn down.

And in the process, create the biggest collapse that's ever happened and allow mankind, because evidently the fall of the Soviet Union wasn't enough. Evidently 120 million dead people wasn't enough. We've got AOC in the House of Representatives.

And she would have fit perfectly as a spokesperson at Pravda. We haven't learned anything. That evidently wasn't big enough. So it may have to come down in a really, really big way. I don't know. But there's no peace to be had with that system at all.

So we have to have a standard to proclaim to people. We have to say to the magistrate, you're going to die and stand before Jesus Christ as your judge. There's your final authority right there. What are you going to do?

Now, the discussion of Christian nominalism and cultural Christianity has come up. Well, isn't it better to have cultural Christianity than cultural Marxism or secularism? Well, again, I'm not sure exactly what that's supposed to mean.

Obviously, it is far better for the laws of a nation to reflect reality than fantasy. That's all we're saying there. Is this nation, the fundamental elements of our law were derived from Christian beliefs.

Innocent until proven guilty. The necessity of being able to cross-examine someone who is bringing accusation against you. All these things come from primarily the Mosaic Law. I'm really bummed because Apologia Studios came up with a really neat shirt and they just didn't save one for me.

But it says Moses, not Marx. Moses, not Marx. I would like to have one of those, but I don't think they're going to reprint them. So I'm sort of sad about that. Anyway, Moses, not Marx, that's where it comes from.

So it's been fascinating to hear these two sides just speaking past each other. Wouldn't it be better to just have Christian morality in a society, even if you don't have people who are actually Christians?

It's like, how long do you expect that to last? See, people don't realize how cultural change and evolution, or in this case, decay, has accelerated exponentially over the past 60 years because of the ability to have world communication.

Like World War II, you would read about a battle days after it happened, sometimes weeks, if you read much about it at all, as far as the information was concerned. And my parents could get up each morning expecting the world to be pretty much like it was when we went to bed.

Today, you get up in the morning and the first thought across your mind is, wow, I wonder what societal assumption we've operated on for the past 200 years collapsed overnight. I mean, you think about that Washington state law.

The state can take your child and mutilate them without your permission. That didn't just happen overnight. There was a lot that went into the enshrinement of that level of evil, that level of demonic evil.

And so things are changing so much more quickly now than they have in the past. And it just seems to me we need to have a foundation upon which to answer some really serious questions today. And that conversation needs to continue and dividing into camps and setting up the barriers and the walls and the howitzers and opening fire accomplishes nothing.

That's why there has to be a major work of the spirit of God that causes us all to have a massive increase in maturity. Because I am not, I'm seeing a whole lot of immaturity on the net right now. I really am.

And nobody's guiltless of it. And so that's why I said, I forget when it was, I wrote it sometime over the weekend, I think, trying to answer all the little minutia questions like, well, what do you do about this situation if you have Christians in charge and this happens?

It's like, we're not there. We're not there. That's irrelevant. The point is there needs to be a standard. And without it, this society is doomed. No society that will say to the state that you can force us to celebrate sexual perversity.

How many drag queens have you seen in government spaces being celebrated over the past just few months? The degradation, I'd like to think that we've gotten to terminal velocity now, but I don't know that we have.

But it's gonna crash and burn big time because God didn't make this world to function on that kind of insanity, that kind of perverse, that kind of evil rebellion. It's just, we can't, won't survive it.

So there's a lot to be thought of. I've enjoyed my conversations with Doug. It doesn't mean I agree with everything that he says. And when there's people that you respect and you listen to what they have to say and you're forced to think, you're forced to go, well, if for example, you hear somebody saying something and it makes you uncomfortable, why is it uncomfortable?

In my case, it's not uncomfortable because it's just not what I'm used to. I think that's the same for almost all of us. That doesn't fit into what I am accustomed to, okay? We're living in a day where that's the way things are.

Everything's changed. I am not comfortable with this world any longer. And I shouldn't have been comfortable with it in the past. But just because it's different doesn't make it wrong. That was one of the things that was drilled into me as an independent fundamentalist Baptist.