WWUTT 2490 Q&A Jelly Roll's Speech, Mark Driscoll's Visions, Beware False Teachers

Brandon Lake and Jelly Roll, are these guys Christians? Mark Driscoll, how is it that he keeps getting platformed? And what can we do to be aware of and stay away from false teachers? The answers to these questions when we understand the text.

This is when we understand the text, a daily Bible commentary that we may be equipped for every good work in Jesus Christ our Lord. Please tell others about our ministry at www .utt .com. Here once again is Pastor Gabe.

Thank you, Becky, who is not along with me this week. She was actually very congested this week, so did not have a voice to do the show. Your prayers for her would be appreciated. Let me begin by reading from Psalm 34, starting in verse 11.

Come, O children, listen to me. I will teach you the fear of the Lord. What man is there who desires life and loves many days that he may see good? Keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking deceit.

Turn away from evil and do good. Seek peace and pursue it. The eyes of the Lord are toward the righteous and his ears toward their cry. The face of the Lord is against those who do evil to cut off the memory of them from the earth.

When the righteous cry for help, the Lord hears and delivers them out of all their troubles. The Lord is near to the brokenhearted and saves the crushed in spirit. Welcome to the Friday edition, the end of the week edition, the weekend edition, the whenever I have the chance to record this, an uploaded edition of when we understand the text, when we take questions from the listeners and you can send a question to when we understand the text at gmail .com or go to our website, www .utt .com.

Click on that voicemail tab and you can record a voicemail to us through your phone or through your computer. It gives you like 90 seconds to either ask your question, leave your comment, give us a compliment.

We would love to hear from you and we'll play it on the program. I've got two questions that I'm responding to today and they both have to do with very popular figures. The first one has to do with Brandon Lake and Jelly Roll, whose song Hard Fought Hallelujah just won the Dove Award for song of the year.

The next question has to do with Mark Driscoll. This guy is in the news again, trending on social media, however you want to say that he's been added to a conference. Another one in which like everybody has just forgotten all the stuff that Mark Driscoll did over a decade ago.

Do you realize it was this month, 11 years ago that Mark Driscoll resigned from Mars Hill Church? Nobody was forcing him to do that. He just did it because he did not want to have to go through the disciplinary process they were about to put him under because of his abusive behavior.

We'll recap all of that because apparently it needs to be recapped. Nobody seems to remember all the stuff that Mark Driscoll did. Some people do, of course, but yeah, these people that keep platforming the guy or going to his church, which is still growing, his church Trinity, which is just up the road from me in Phoenix.

And yeah, people just have very short memories when it comes to all the stuff that Mark Driscoll.

Has done.

Brandon Lake, Jelly Roll, and the Dove Award

Let's begin with the Brandon Lake and Jelly Roll thing. So this is from Maddie, Dear Pastor Gabe, I have really enjoyed the song Hard Fought Hallelujah by Brandon Lake and Jelly Roll. Recently a friend sent me a comment by you saying that Jelly Roll is not a Christian and he's in an open marriage with his wife, which I guess that means they allow each other to sleep with other people.

Well that stunned me, so I looked it up and it turns out that Jelly Roll's wife, Bunny XO, is that her real name, has called this a rumor and they're not in an open marriage. Were you aware of this? If you have something else, I'd like to see it.

Well she sent me a link to an article from PennLive .com, P-E-N-N live .com. I don't even know what that is, but when I click on it, it's behind a paywall. I apparently have to pay five bucks even for a day pass to read this article, which I'm not going to do.

So I found the same story on Yahoo, and that actually came with a video clip. So I'll play that here in just a moment, but first let me kind of tell you who these individuals.

Are.

You may have heard this song Hard Fought Hallelujah, especially if you listen to K-Love. They really like to play it there. This is among the popular praise and worship music that's really circulating around Christian music right now.

Brandon Lake and Jelly Roll have had what is perhaps the most popular Christian song this year with that particular tune, Hard Fought Hallelujah. By the way, it's co-written by Steven Furtick. Brandon Lake is out of the New Apostolic Reformation, and when I say out of it, I don't mean that he's left it behind.

He's still a part of it. He's just not as closely aligned with it as he was before. His beliefs are still the same. It's not like he's turned from that and actually become a Christian, but he was first published, I believe, through Bethel Music.

That was where his first album came from. Did a lot of praise and worship with Bethel Music, still does. Will partner with them and do things, Hillsong, Elevation Worship, obviously with Elevation that comes out of Steven Furtick's church and with Furtick being a co-writer on that song.

Brandon Lake and Steven Furtick have done co-writing things together. I've mentioned Brandon Lake on this program before. It was earlier this year. I can't remember which month now, but you might remember the story from earlier this year where Brandon Lake was talking about how the song, Holy, Holy, Holy, just goes over everybody's head.

The classic hymn, the hymn that's in your hymn book at church, Holy, Holy, Holy. It's too deep. It's too difficult for us to grasp, and so we shouldn't sing that song because some unbeliever that comes into the church won't understand what we're talking about, and it will just be beyond their comprehension.

But who is church for? Ultimately, church is the Christians who are praising God. It is for God. We are lifting up praise to God. Unbelievers are going to come in, but we're not catering the church to unbelievers.

If any unbeliever does come in, we need to share the gospel with them. Tell them to turn from their sin to the Lord Jesus Christ, but we do not shape the church worship service for unbelievers. This has been going on for decades now, this seeker-sensitive mindset of programming your church service, as a matter of speaking, because these people that will go after this seeker-sensitive way of doing church are putting together a program.

They're planning this out as church needs to be done this way because we want to be able to appeal to those seekers when Romans 3 tells us no one seeks for God. And yet we believe there's this imaginary seeker guy out there that's looking for something.

And so when he comes into our church, we need to speak language in the right kind of way that will minister to him when that's not the point of church. Church is for Christians to praise God. That's not where our evangelism is done.

Evangelism is primarily done out in the world. When we go beyond the church walls and we are sharing the gospel with other people. So Brandon Lake still has that seeker-sensitive thing going on, obviously associated with the New Apostolic Reformation.

He believes heretical things about the Trinity, about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, even individually, the individual persons of the Trinity. And then you have Jelly Roll. Brandon Lake is doing this song with a guy named Jelly Roll, who, by the way, I had no idea who this was, had never heard of Jelly Roll before this song, Hard Fought Hallelujah.

Apparently, the guy is a country music star of some kind. But I did not know who this was before he was pulled into doing this song with Brandon.

Lake.

Jelly Roll is not a Christian. Brandon Lake is a heretic in the things that he believes about God are not biblical. Jelly Roll is just not even a Christian at all. And yet he is regularly performing with Brandon Lake.

This wasn't like they did a song and they did a few performances, and then it came about that Jelly Roll's lifestyle really wasn't Christian. And so then Brandon Lake decided, well, I can't associate myself with Jelly Roll anymore.

No, nothing has changed. They still perform together all the time. Despite the fact that Jelly Roll has been in an open marriage, meaning that it's basically mutually agreed upon adultery, Jelly Roll commits adultery.

His wife, whose name is, I guess, Bunny XO. I don't know what that's. I'm sure that's a that's a stage name of some kind. I don't know what her real name is. Jelly Roll. I mean, that's not his real name either.

I've seen his real name. I just don't remember what it is off the top of my head. But anyway, these two are in an open marriage. It's a mutually agreed upon adultery. He can sleep around with other women.

She can commit adultery with with other men. And and so anyway, as Maddie had pointed out, she did some investigating on this and came to discover that that was just a rumor. And Bunny XO set the record straight regarding this particular rumor.

And I'll play the clip from her in a moment. But first of all, here's Jelly Roll. This is after they received the Dove Award for Song of the Year. Was this this week earlier this week or last week or sometime?

I can't remember when this was. But anyway, here is Jelly Roll. And this is his acceptance speech receiving a Dove Award for Song of the Year.

Y 'all forgive me. I'm one. I'm not sure how much I even belong speaking up here right now, but just and I'm nervous. I ain't been this nervous since I went to criminal court, y 'all. This is a real thing for me.

I mean, I'm sweaty palm, but I was listening to him and I was thinking about Matthew when he talks about the least. When he said, when I was hungry, you fed me when I was thirsty. You gave me water when I was in jail.

You came and visited me. And I realized that I'm standing here because people took time with the least and I don't.

Really know what that means. Is he referring to himself as the least? I was the least of these. As I've talked about many, many times regarding that passage in Matthew chapter 25, when Jesus is referring to the least of these, he's talking about our fellow believers, our fellow Christians, the least of our fellow Christians.

He's not talking about every person who has been in prison and you went and visited them or who was hungry and you gave them food to eat. He's not. He's not talking about all of the poor or marginalized in a society, which in Jelly Roll's case, he's not even poor.

He's a multimillionaire.

But continuing on, I want to, I want to give this message as clear as I can right now. The world is hearing about Jesus like they haven't in decades right now. There is a revival happening in the United States of America where you can't go on a corner and not hear about Jesus right now.

And while we are hearing about Jesus, I encourage you to put faith on your feet and feet on your faith and walk out of this building and go do for the least. They've heard of Jesus. Now show them Jesus.

Go feed the poor. Go visit the ones in jail. Go show them who Jesus was. And we're done talking. It's time to show. I thank you for the Dove Awards. I think this thing is great. I think it gives alternative programming for kids at home watching this.

My son's watching this. I think this is awesome. He gets to watch an award show like this. I thank God that I could see the forest for the trees. God bless that.

But what Jesus is he talking about? What does he know about Jesus? He's just paying lip service to Jesus. Jelly Roll doesn't really know him. He and his wife both claim to be Christians and will talk about Jesus like you hear about Jesus all the time in country music songs.

I mean, you're always hearing about Jesus, but they live lifestyles that don't look like Christians whatsoever. The Dove Awards that were recently Forest Frank, I think he won artist of the year. And Forest Frank did not attend the Dove Awards.

And Frank has decided he's not going to attend award shows. For him, the award is being able to serve Christ, being able to speak his name and sing to his glory, and that people would even be won to Christ.

That for him is reward enough. He doesn't want to be doing award shows and receiving awards for these these things that he does for Jesus. I'm kind of on the fence about that. I can understand the benefit of receiving an award.

I mean, my dad, I went and attended an award ceremony with my dad five years ago when he was awarded the Legacy Award for 50 plus years in Christian radio. And it was a great honor for my dad. I thought that was a that was a pretty big deal.

But anyway, Forest Frank has just decided he's not going to attend award shows, which is fine. It's great for him. But Jelly Roll called him out, publicly called him out on that because he would not go to the Dove Awards.

I probably wouldn't attend the Dove Awards. I have attended the Dove Awards a couple of times. I probably wouldn't do it again, though. But anyway, Jelly Roll publicly calls out Forest Frank and says the following.

You won't receive a trophy for something from Jesus for Jesus, but you will take the profits from something from Jesus for Jesus. Maybe I'm missing something here, LOL. Well, Jelly Roll does the same thing.

It's an incredibly hypocritical statement. The very thing you're accusing Forest Frank of is what you do. You're taking the profits from proclaiming Christ. It's OK to get paid for the job that you do.

A worker is worthy of his wages. A Christian can even make a lot of money and making a lot of money for making Christian music or art or some kind. There's nothing wrong with that either. It's more a matter of what they do with the money than it is that they actually make the.

Money.

But making a lot of money, there's nothing wrong with that. But the very thing that Jelly Roll is calling Forest Frank out on is the is the thing that Jelly Roll is doing. He is profiting off of Jesus.

But in Jelly Roll's case, I don't know about Forest Frank, though, honestly, I don't I don't follow the guy. But with regard to Jelly Roll, you know, when I heard of that, when I heard this song, Brandon Lake, Jelly Roll, and I look these guys up, I mean, it didn't take me more than a couple of minutes to figure out, oh, OK, Brandon Lake is with Bethel Church, which is a heretical church.

And Jelly Roll is not even a Christian at all. Again, the guy being in an open marriage, which is just mutually agreed upon adultery now, like Maddie said, that somebody had said to her that this was just a rumor and Bunny XO had disproved it.

So I went to this article on Yahoo to to read what she was talking about. Now, hang on. I got to I got to put it back up here because I took it down Yahoo posted there. And it says Jelly Roll's wife, Bunny XO, officially addresses the open marriage rumors.

Living life in the public eye comes with its issues and two of the biggest burdens is being under constant speculation. This is especially true when it comes to a celebrity's romantic life. Artist Jelly Roll and his wife, Bunny XO, married since 2016, have always been open books about their relationship together.

The pair met at one of his concerts in Las Vegas. When Bunny learned Jelly Roll was traveling back to Vegas, she offered for him to stay at her place. And they haven't been apart since. And it's kind of an admission of fornicating.

And that's how they ended up together. It's a white trash love story. Jelly Roll once told the hosts of the King and the Sting and the Wing Clips podcast. The King and the Sting and the Wing Clips podcast.

OK, there you go. Noting that he was living in a van at the time when I hugged her, I could just feel the genuineness of her. I could tell it wasn't an act. The rest was history. Together the two overcame a ton of hardships.

Jelly Roll is often credited his wife for his success as she financially and emotionally supported him as he got his career off the ground. Now the pair are enjoying success in their own lanes and together.

But with success comes scrutiny. And recently, Bunny took to her podcast to clear the air around some questions about the openness of their marriage. OK, so now here's the clip now before playing this clip.

I have listened to her podcast. It's called the Dumb Blonde podcast. I believe it is even beyond this clip. It is it is a filthy podcast. Like you can't listen to it. The F words are so rampant. It is R rated.

And there's probably even worse content than what I heard. And I did not want to hear any more. This is Jelly Roll's wife, and the two of them call themselves Christians, and you're going to hear her say that in this particular clip.

There's language in this clip. I have muted it so you won't hear the bad words. Don't worry, but you'll figure it out. I mean, you'll you'll know what it is that she's saying, even though I've believed all of this out and tried to to clear it up a little bit.

But again, these people that are being presented to us as Christians and these Christian songs, that are being pushed out and even receiving Dove Awards for Song of the Year, they're not believers. And even the stuff that they say and the stuff that they put out is really, really terrible.

And I'll expound on that even in a moment. But here's here's Bunny XO addressing the rumor that her and Jelly Roll are in an open marriage.

Also, can we talk about the clip that I made? OK, oh, no. You guys got it.

Very good job.

Glasses came off. Glasses came off.

Can we talk about the clip that every page. First of all, love all the clip pages who are clipping the podcast. Love that. Go keep doing it. But you guys are clipping clips from like six years ago. One of them, finally, there was a clip that went around that said, if I want to sleep with other men, I can.

And people have just ran with this clip for years. And I know that I've addressed me and my husband's situation. I don't understand what part of we are not in an open relationship that people cannot comprehend.

The only thing that we don't do, though, is try to control the other person. If I want to go sleep with another man, he's not going to be like, no, you're mine. You know, you can't do that to people.

OK, so it's still it's still an open marriage. They just don't call it an open marriage. We just don't stop the other person. We don't tell them, no, you can't go do that, but but they can. And then that's still apparently agreed upon in the marriage.

So maybe there's a little bit more resistance to it than we would have been led to believe.

Before.

But but that's still an open marriage. It's still they're seeing other people and sleeping around with other people committing.

Adultery and goes for like if there was another woman. But this is all in the past. Like we've completely stopped all of those shenanigans because you can't trust anybody in the world. Back in the day, that was OK.

Now hear that. So she said that that was who we were before. But we've stopped all those shenanigans. There's no repentance. This never gets called evil. In fact, she's whitewashing it by saying, no, no, no, it wasn't an open marriage.

It's just we weren't controlling each other is what it was. But we've since closed the marriage sort of. I mean, you'll you'll hear from what she says here. It's not really that way. But but we've since closed the marriage because you can't trust people in the world, not because they learn that it was evil and we're actually not honoring God.

And and our marriage needs to be more reflective of Christ, the way that Christ loves the church is said in Ephesians chapter five. It's not that understanding. It's that we just couldn't trust people in the world anymore.

And so that's why we've changed the nature of our marriage, how we looked at our relationship.

We don't want to tell each other what we can and can't do. We have free will. That's a huge difference between having an open relationship. You guys also were healing together and learning to be together.

Yeah.

And that's just what was good in the beginning for you guys. He had never been in a real relationship. Granted, he had a couple of 10 year relationships, but he had cheated on every one of them. I had been cheated on and I was in sex work.

How am I going to be in sex work? Having sugar daddies telling my husband, no, you can't sleep with other people like you guys just don't see the bigger picture on there, you know, and everybody.

So she was doing sex work while they were married to each other. So you can't tell me not to go sleep with other. I mean, she's admitting it was an open marriage. This is just an extremely bizarre response.

But you can anyway, like I said before about how the podcast is just really filthy. You can probably understand why now like, oh, isn't Jelly a Christian?

Yes, we are both Christians. We love Jesus. And that's why we have changed the uniform of our relationship. It was never open for us to have to close it. I think that's where people don't understand, because we were six years ago.

We were just learning how to talk to the Internet. Everybody and their mom runs with that clip. But I'm so happy because one clip finally posted the whole clip.

Yeah.

And people, of course, are only going to hear what they want to hear. But the majority of the time, they clip that if I want to go sleep with other people. And it's so funny to me because we have brought in more women into our relationship.

Then I'm just going to stop. I don't think I need to go any further.

Yeah.

You hear her say, we love Jesus. And then she's talking so flippantly about how promiscuous they were and doesn't really sound like much has changed, except that we've just kind of tightened up the restrictions a little bit because you can't trust people in the world.

We've stopped all those shenanigans, she says. And we both love Jesus, but doesn't really explain what that means or what that's even grounded in. We love Jesus. So what? Like, what does your marriage then look like now?

What does your marriage look like that is honoring of God? Do you understand that the way that you were living before was evil that God has promised that he will judge? Colossians chapter three, verse five, put to death.

Therefore, what is earthly in you? Sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these, the wrath of God is coming. And don't forget, first Corinthians chapter six, verse nine, where it is said that sexual immorality, the sexually immoral will not inherit the kingdom of God.

The judgment of God is coming against this stuff. She doesn't seem to have any awareness of that. So we love Jesus. So what? Who is Jesus to you? Jelly Roll said it. Brandon Lake says it in his songs.

But who is this Jesus that you're singing about? Who are you talking about? Now, when I was trying to figure out Bunny XO's real name, I was trying to look it up and I couldn't find it. But I found this People Magazine article that was from just last month.

This is dated September 17. So it's not even been a full month. She has announced Bunny XO has announced a new memoir entitled Stripped Down, unfiltered and unapologetic. And she says, here's the quote at the beginning of the article.

Although I've left that lifestyle behind, I've stripped down one last time and bared my soul for the world to see. Now, you might be thinking to yourself, okay, well, she's just being euphemistic. No, because when I scrolled down on the cover of the book, she's naked.

And I deeply regretted even scrolling down. So a book entitled Stripped Down and she really is that way to say, I've left this lifestyle behind. No, she hasn't. And it's the same with her description of their marriage.

It's not an open marriage. And then what she describes is an open marriage. I've left this lifestyle behind. And then what she presents is exactly that lifestyle. These people are not Christians. And yet this is what is being pushed out there as Christian man.

I can still remember when I was working in Christian radio and the news came out that Amy Grant was getting a divorce. Amy Grant and Gary Chapman, her first husband, were divorcing. And then the discussion became among so many different Christian music programmers.

Do we still keep playing her music or not? Same sort of thing happened when Sandy Patty was caught in adultery. Michael English was caught in adultery. This is what was going around among the Christian music programmers at Christian radio stations all over the country.

Most Christian radio stations were yanking their stuff. So you weren't hearing Sandy Patty, Michael English, and Amy Grant on the air anymore. And Amy Grant, you know, had pretty much gone secular by that point anyway.

So it wasn't like she was making music for Christian radio anymore regardless. But these were the discussions that I was having 20 years ago. How long ago was this? Over 20 or 30 years ago, I guess it was.

And so these were the kinds of things, the kinds of decisions that were being made in Christian radio because an artist got caught in adultery and got a.

Divorce.

And their songs were getting yanked off the air. There was a, there was even a Christian artist. I can see her face, but I cannot remember her name. She was on America's Got Talent and she performed, did well, I suppose.

I don't think they won anything, but she was asked in her performance on the show where, like what her history was and everything. And she talked about how she was in Christian music, but then she got pregnant out of wedlock.

And so she lost her recording contract and all of her music got yanked off of Christian radio. And the hosts of America's Got Talent were just appalled by that. They were like, oh man, I can't believe somebody would treat you that way.

We have standards or we used to, used to have standards in Christian radio that if a person wasn't living like a Christian, then they weren't going to get their songs played on Christian radio. That appears to be a thing of the past now.

Because now for a man that is in an adulterous marriage, give him a Dove Award for song of the year and who is not going to look into this guy and find out the kind of life that he lives and that's going to appear okay to people as long as you give lip service to Jesus.

Brandon Lake and Jelly Roll song hard-fought hallelujah is not a hard-fought hallelujah. It's not a hallelujah to God at all. It's just Jelly Roll finding another platform to make more money in the meantime, he continues to live this wicked lifestyle that is not reflective of a person who fears God and wants to honor Christ at all.

So I hope that's helpful for you Maddie and you can pass on that information. Did you say that that was to a friend a friend told you a friend sent you a comment by me saying that Jelly Roll is not a Christian and he's in an open marriage with his wife.

Well, anyway, I'd so I hope that I had answered that with you well enough and God bless you. I appreciate you listening and and asking the question as well. There are some better songs out there. There's better things for you to listen to that are even more God honoring than Brandon Lake and Jelly Roll.

We don't need these guys, you know, the the the heretical Christian musicians. We don't have to have them. There are better musicians out there and those who truly love God and actually live Christian lifestyles and have some better Orthodox beliefs regarding their Christian faith.

I don't know why we keep turning to the same people, but it's like Bethel Church Hillsong and Elevation are still the top three. They are the big three in Christian music. When you go look through the most sung songs in Christian music right now or in churches right now.

So this is according to the CCLI charts, which tracks all of this.

Stuff.

What songs are being sung in churches across America and I I think pretty much around the world as well. The top three are still Bethel music. Elevation and Hillsong. Those are still the top three. They're heretical churches, but they know how to market Bethel Church is even outright said and we've talked about this on this program many other times Bethel Church has said that they win people with the music.

So they draw people into the teaching at Bethel Church Elevation draws people into the teaching at Elevation. They do this through their music. They've admitted that that's what they do and there's a lot of money behind that music to make sure it's put out there and it's the stuff that you hear whenever you hear Christian music because there's money to promote it, but we don't have to listen to these guys.

There's better stuff out there and the big conferences and stuff like Stop calling on these guys to lead the worship at your conferences. I was I was very disappointed that it was these same people that were leading worship at Charlie Kirk's Memorial as well as if there's no one else out there that we can call upon.

Mark Driscoll, False Prophecy, and Refusing Church Discipline

Speaking of this on that note, you don't need Mark Driscoll either to lead your movement and I don't know why people keep going back to Mark Driscoll, but it happens over and over and over again. The disgraced former pastor of Mars Hill Church who as I said earlier in the program resigned 11 years ago from Mars Hill has since reinvented himself founded a new church in the Phoenix area.

It's called Trinity. I've even known people that go there. I've known people that like it there, but but Mark Driscoll just seems to I'll tell you what Becky said. Okay, so Becky is not on the program here, but this is the way she described Mark Driscoll when we were talking about it.

Mark Driscoll is the Brett Favre of pastors. He's really talented. He's really good, but he is full of drama and he never seems to go.

Away.

So this guy just keeps coming back and whenever he comes back, it's a whole lot of drama. A guy that's totally full of himself because that is Mark Driscoll in a nutshell. And so and so here he is. Once again, he's been platformed in this clear truth conference that's coming up that includes some other speakers.

As well.

Originally Votie Bockham was supposed to be the speaker, but he just died and so to replace Votie Bockham. They put in Mark Driscoll. Now the ironic thing about this about this particular conference is that clear truth media was started.

To be an alternative to the gospel coalition and acts 29 now, I think it's even called real clear churches or something like that. I they've changed the name because the whole leadership structure is changed.

But anyway, they wanted to be an alternative something that was that was more solid than the gospel coalition and acts 29 and who do they bring in as a speaker? One of the co-founders of the gospel coalition and acts 29.

Seems to me like history is repeating itself, you know, if you really want to sabotage your movement, bring Mark Driscoll into it because he sure knows how to do that. Anyway, I got this question from Jace.

I'm already talking about this and and Jace is really the one who sets this up asking this question Pastor Gabe. I appreciate you keeping up on issues that I don't have the time to keep up on. I wanted to ask you about Mark Driscoll.

I believe I heard you say once that you're amazed how short everyone's attention span is concerning Driscoll. What did you mean by this? What are the main reasons you would say he's disqualified for ministry?

Well, I believe the statement I even said the statement at the beginning of this program. I said it again, but I believe the statement is you heard it would have been that everybody's memory is short concerning Mark Driscoll because all of this happened over a decade ago with Driscoll publicly disgraced and disqualified as a pastor, but he keeps coming back and he's never Apologize for the things that he's done as a matter of fact, he's he's since totally cast the blame on the elders that were putting him under.

Discipline.

So he's never apologized for anything. He has no contrition demonstrates no contrition at all. Has never admitted that he was abusive and overbearing will be just to talk about some of the offenses. That was really the main thing is that Driscoll was being charged with being an abusive pastor.

There were what was the number? Hang on. I got to look this up. So there were 21 former Mars Hill pastors who were bringing charges against Mark Driscoll for being abusive and those charges included number one Pastor Mark exhibits a lack of self-control by his speech and by verbally assaulting others.

Number two. We believe that the way Pastor Mark has created a culture of fear instead of a culture of candor and safety people are often afraid to ask questions or challenge certain ideas and then number three Pastor Mark is verbally abusive to people who challenge him disagree with him or question him.