Jerusalem Jones

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James White.

Program Schedule, Travel Plans, and Upcoming Debates

And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning. Make sure you Write down keep track of this information Thursday. We will again be doing the program at this time. I am teaching For Golden Gate right now, and I have a class on Thursday evenings and therefore we need to Do again as we did two weeks ago.

I have it on Thursday now we are currently for those of you who are very angry and upset and gathering pitchforks and Heading toward our offices. We are at this moment uploading the the last few programs and so you will be able to sort of OD on the dividing line this week the the programs will be up.

I think they have three programs today and That way you'll you'll be all satisfied and all happy and things like that. At least we hope anyways, so and I thought last last week's programs went pretty well, so appreciate Barry sitting in and Of course, it was funny to find out after the first program that when I looked I was that hey, by the way.

Did you start that recording? Oh, yeah. Yeah, everything's cool. Then after the program is over well, actually. Yeah, so they get the thumbs-up sign. I'm not really certain that thumbs up is actually a thumbs-up sign but Yeah, sort of maybe not sure sorta, you know As Funny, but anyways, we got it fixed and it's it's uploading or maybe already uploaded possibly that one.

First one's already uploaded. So the second one will be going up after the program. The 11th is actually uploading as we speak. That's interesting that we're taxing our connection. Duck tape all the did you put new batteries in to help get things going?

All right good. Yes. Hey, well, um, it was paused. Yeah, well paused and recording means it's not recording. That's the problem. So we need to keep that in mind anyhow Thursday we will do the program and then Friday I head for New Jersey.

And I look forward to meeting all of you in the New Jersey, New York area. I've put the entire schedule up on the blog. It was a few days ago and people are starting to miss it. I may have to repost it just simply so that it's up there.

And people can see it, but we'll be a Trinity Fellowship Church Saturday night and Sunday morning Trinity Baptist Church in Montville Sunday night. Then the Sovereignty of God conference. I believe I speak on Monday and Wednesday.

Which means I should not be Speaking on Tuesday. I actually think might I might have a day when I'm not speaking which is Not a day off. Because this Golden Gate class that finishes Thursday night. They're turning all their papers in so I've got their assignments and book reviews so on so forth to grade.

While I'm on the road. That's that's always lots of fun getting your email and trying to grade stuff and keep keep who's who straight and Email folks back and this wasn't long enough and so on so forth while we're on the road.

And then of course the Shamsiali debate now tomorrow the dialogue tomorrow will be On iron sharpens iron Shamsiali and I will be on and it will not be the same thing as as the actual dialogue. We'll just be talking about more general things you know.

The importance and necessity of Muslims and Christians dialoguing. Talking being honest in their disagreements. Going against what the world would have us to do in essence. Where the world would have us to pretend like we have no differences.

I was last night reading from surah 5 in class and was talking about say not three. The use of Ali translation says Trinity. Say not three cease desist to be better for you it is blasphemy and You know when when one religions?

Inspired book says that the central affirmation of another's is blasphemy. Well You can't just sweep that under a rug. You've you've got to talk about it openly you've got it. That's the only way to be respectful to to both religions.

Did. You may not have heard this yet. Jimmy Carter this morning was over in the Middle East and they tried to kill him. Oh, well a number of times apparently. They cleared several mines along the way.

The why would they want to kill Jimmy Carter?

Yeah, he sure is. But in his speech He says listen. We all and he's referring to Israel Palestinians and himself we all call Abraham our father we all worship The same God we only do it using just different disciplines different.

Disciplines. I'm so interesting so thankful that Jimmy Carter was only a one-term president. And in fact, it's just sort of sad that he was our president at all, but anyway. Yeah, thank you. Thank you.

Mr.. Carter. We we appreciate Your input anyway so tomorrow. We're gonna be on iron sharpens iron talking about that kind of stuff. I would assume that we'd be talking about that kind of stuff and So you want to tune that in that's at 3 o 'clock 3 p .m. Eastern Daylight Time WNYG go to sharpens blogspot .com and you can listen live and stuff like that and So that'll be going on then and then starting Thursday, or I'm sorry Friday I'll be speaking once Friday twice Saturday and twice on Sunday on Long Island at various churches West Savile Reform Baptist Church and and Hope and grace, and they're all on the blog and so I'll be very busy at that particular that particular time, so.

Anyway, that's what's coming up, and I'll be back Lord willing on Monday and Lord willing there will be something left of me to do something on Tuesday. Let me get back and get back into the routine. Keep the trip to Australia in prayer we.

It's really different. I don't Schedule things well, I am NOT good at this stuff, and we've got folks in Brisbane. That's where I'm going to be. Trying to trying to find some Muslims to debate and then folks in Sydney also trying to set something up so and and I'm a good friend has has offered to pay to fly me from Brisbane to Sydney if we can do that and They're both saying well.

There's opportunities. There's options. It may come together. We've got to get flights booked and. And there's no way of knowing how to do this until that stuff gets figured out you know and So pray that's could come together as quickly as possible so that so we can do this in a and I would love to it'd Be great to have one debate in Brisbane one debate in Sydney.

That would be wonderful if we could work it out there's a real need for this kind of dialogue to be taking place down there and I would love to see it happen it provides the longest term Benefit over time because those debates you know Minister a long time down the road also Lord willing I've gotten some slightly positive news about getting the eight debates from last year with Muslims released from purgatory.

But keep praying about that too because that has been a real Burden for me all the work that I put into doing those eight debates and not have the videos or even the audios for that matter is not a good thing in any way shape or form and.

So there's there may be some positive movement on that. I certainly hope so but so anyway, it's got a lot a lot going on and that's that's that's exciting so. Last time we were listening to some Norman Geisler.

Jerusalem Jones and Steve Ray on Mary

But before we get back to good old norm I wanted to spend a little time with a recent Catholic answers appearance as in yesterday. And I thought someone in the channel had a really good idea as to how we should start.

Any segment where we're talking about this particular gentleman, so I think we'll do it. Yes, indeed folks. It's the Indiana Jones music, but it's for Jerusalem Jones. Yes, Jerusalem Jones. Steve Ray.

How would you like to get your theology for a man wearing a hat like that. Yes indeed, that's what happens When you listen to Steve Ray on Catholic answers live. Thank you very very much for that. I you know I grabbed that during the opening music of this program.

And I was sitting going come on little doll. Don't fail me now. Because sometimes it just stares at me and goes. I'm not gonna do that. No you bet you're asking way too much of me, right? But we got to work anyhow.

I was listening. I didn't get to listen to much of yesterday's program yet, so James Swan go ahead and listen to it because I'm sure there's lots more later on that I could play clips from but right toward the beginning.

He mentioned that he's been a Catholic now for 15 years and Steve Ray likes to talk about how he was an ignorant Baptist and Unfortunately he doesn't make the connection there that he was an ignorant Baptist and therefore what he thinks Baptist actually believed Generally isn't because he was an ignorant Baptist by his own confession so anyway He was talking about that and the subject was Mary, so let's I just want to respond to this one Particular portion right at the beginning of the program.

Mary was a big problem for our conversion because When we looked at Catholics we got the perception that they worshipped Mary more than God. They prayed to Mary more than God they loved her more than Jesus and It almost appeared to us that Mary Had become the fourth person of the Trinity even though that doesn't the numbers don't work, right?

But that was the perception that many Evangelical Protestants get you you would look in the door of a church and there are people lighting candles and kneeling in front of a statue to Mary. And from our perception and Evangelicalism pray is almost synonymous with worship.

Those two are very almost indistinguishable. Prayer and worship are pretty much the same or synonyms. And so when you see somebody praying in front of a statue kneeling down you say oh there. It is they're worshiping Mary instead of Jesus, and you walk away, and you're disgusted with Catholic maryology instead of maryology.

Yes, and that's the way it's perceived until you understand it now. It's funny Patrick because if you'd have looked in my bedroom window 15 years ago. What would you have seen. You'd have seen me kneeling in front of an open Bible on my bed as I prayed and read through?

The Psalms or some of the Passages of the Bible before I went to bed at night and there you would have said ah look at Steve He's worshiping the Bible. He's praying for the Bible. Bible all a tree. Yeah, it's a matter of perception.

Because if you came to me and said Steve are you worshiping that book out. Of course not. I'm using it as a devotional tool.

And to help me in a system of my prayers to God now. Let's let's just ask a simple question is there really a parallel? between Praying as he says before an open Bible, and what Roman Catholics do with Mary?

I I I just popped open the file the electronic file of My little book which unfortunately is no longer in print Mary another Redeemer and I just just opened up to the chapter chapter 7. I just want to read you a few things here, and let's see if there is a meaningful parallel between This doctor of the church now Steve Ray is not even in the clergy.

He has no official standing whatsoever in the Roman Catholic Church but France but that's not the case for many of these individuals including Liguri who is a doctor of the church Alphonsus de Liguri a doctor of the church his the book the glories of Mary 80 editions I believe over the years and So significantly more representational of Roman Catholic theology than then Steve Ray, but let's just listen to a few of these and See if you might detect a slight difference between a Baptist.

Reading his Bible and then kneeling and praying he's obviously not praying to the Bible. He's not saying Oh Bible save me. This is now if he did that as a Baptist that tells you a lot about what kind of a Baptist he was.

But that's not what's happening but that is what's happening in the prayers of the Roman Catholic who is bowing before Mary and praying to Mary. Let's uh, let's just read a few things here and see what happens.

The praise of Mary is inexhaustible found. The more it is enlarged the fuller it gets and the more you fill it so much the more is it enlarged. That if all The tongues of men were put together and even if each of their members was changed into a tongue they would not suffice to praise her as much as she deserves and Never lose an opportunity either in public or in private of in kindling in the hearts of others those blessed flames of love.

Which which they themselves burn towards their beloved Queen that to honor this Queen of Angels is to gain eternal life. That this most glorious lady will honor in the next world those who honor her in this Rejoice my soul and be glad in her for many good things are prepared for those who praise her.

And he says the whole the sacred scripture speak in praise of Mary the devout Thomas a campus represents to us Mary recommending a soul who had honored her to her son and saying my most loving son have mercy on the soul of this servant Of thine who loved and extolled me.

That as the most sacred room of Mary womb of Mary was the means of salvation for sinners. The hearing of her praises must necessarily convert them and thus also be a means of their salvation. Oh blessed are they who bind themselves with love and confidence to these two anchors of salvation Jesus and Mary.

Certainly, they will not be lost. Let us love Jesus and Mary and become saints. We can neither expect nor hope anything better. Hail. Oh Queen. Oh mother of mercy. Hail our life our comfort and our hope we the banished children of Eve cry out unto thee to thee.

We send up our sighs groaning and weeping in the veil of tears. Come then our advocate and look upon us with those Pitying eyes and after this our banishment show us Jesus the blessed fruit of thy womb.

Oh merciful. Oh Compassionate. Oh sweet Virgin Mary you tell me folks If there is not a world of difference between Roman Catholic mariolatry and Bowing before an open Bible and praying to God when you're not praying to the Bible Jesus isn't some mere aid in devotion.

The Bible isn't some mere aid in devotion in Roman Catholicism. Mary is not some mere aid of devotion. She is the object of devotion so the only way that parallel would work was if Steve Ray was bowing before that Bible and lighting candles before that Bible saying Oh Bible Save me.

You're one of the anchors of my salvation. You are the one who'll be merciful to me, etc, etc, and nobody will do that. Yeah, so there you there you go. Once again Jerusalem Jones not exactly accurate in in what he says about his former life, you know what I think about when I.

It strikes me that these guys do a lot of spinning to try to work their way around. That person kneeling at the Statue of Mary Concept and well, we're not worshipping. We're just praying. Mike you read Liguri and I had to help you do some of those.

Verify some of those quotes from Liguri when you were writing that book and it drove me crazy, right?

It really yeah, it's. It's not easy to cite it.

I when I hear Steve Ray make a claim like that to try to distance himself and the modern church I don't know what his mindset is. If however, he wants to describe it. Would he pray that prayer with Liguri?

Well, that's just it.

You know, I've told this story many times before but I remember very very very very clearly when I was in the Studio on W easy in Boston with Jerry matic's and I read that prayer Which also is found in Liguri.

But I'd found it in this little pamphlet. And I I just found it blasphemous. I found it offensive it was it talked about Deliver me from the world the flesh the world the devils and Jesus my judge. And I mean no born again regenerated believer could ever even Contemplate the blasphemy of that prayer and yet you were given indulgences for it.

And I read that on the air and I fully expected Jerry matic's to respond with Oh James, you know, that's not official teaching. That's just popular piety. Blah blah blah blah. And when he Looked through those that forest of just like we have right here microphone stands.

When he looked through that forest of microphone stands at me and he said Mr. White I I pray for the day when you can pray that prayer with me. I about fainted.

Now my recollection is that in the Marian doctrines debate? I think that radio interview took place before the Marian doctrines debate two years. As my recollection as you pointed that out to the audience and he stepped up and reiterated that point.

Yes, he did. There's no question about it.

But that's Jerry matic's and we all know Jerry matic's is not an orthodox Roman Catholic anymore, right? So we can just ignore everything Jerry matic's ever said even when he was on staff at Catholic answers.

I think the reality is that Steve Ray would be forced to admit the Roman Catholic orthodoxy of Liguri's book and it's in its statements. I would love once again, you know to get these guys to engage these subjects in a meaningful fashion in debate I mentioned last week when I played the Purgatory section by Tim Staples I I think a lot of folks would find a debate between myself and Tim Staples on Purgatory and does the Bible teach Purgatory?

Tim just let me know the time the place have to be there. I think I'm gonna send him an email along those lines because listening to his massacre first Corinthians chapter 3 I I Would just really think that it would be very useful to folks to hear Tim Staples answer direct questions.

If now we'd have to do a primer on how to do cross-examination with Tim because he hasn't figured that out yet as we all That that in cross-examination you ask Questions you don't take the time to make further statements in and you ask brief questions.

You don't ask two-minute questions and You know and the fact the matter is Tim knows that and he just didn't care to follow the rules of debate at that point but once again Standing open challenge to Tim Staples to debate that or Steve Ray.

I would love to debate Steve Ray and Mary. That would be so very enjoyable. But that is also about as likely as well. A lot of other debates I can think of that are never going to take place because once again They've got absolutely nothing to gain from that and and everything to lose but there you go there's our our Jerusalem Jones updates and we'll be we'll come back to that at another time in the future, maybe James Swan can get me some more clips from that particular one and we can Take some time to listen to Some more Jerusalem Jones your source of really bad theology.

Yes, indeed. Okay, well anyhow on to more important things eight seven seven seven five three three four one. Why don't it's not that it's not important. I mean, let's face it there are Hundreds of thousands of people around this world today absolutely trapped in gross idolatry Trusting Mary for their salvation and I say I've said it before and I'll say it now again Mary has never ever heard a single one of those prayers.

Not a one I don't believe my God would allow Mary to know of the idolatry that takes place in her name on this planet I just don't believe it and so I just They've never she's never heard those any of those prayers folks.

You've been misled. You've been deceived And so while we might have a little fun with Steve Ray, we have to either have to laugh or cry given that people take this man seriously, but That's that's where we go Transitioning now eight seven seven seven five three three four one is the phone number transitioning now to what we began last time which was a review of Norman Geisler's a sermon Which he's delivered a number of times but it is entitled why I'm not a five-point Calvinist and It continues to make the rounds it's on YouTube.

I get asked about it rather frequently and So I wanted to play the entirety of the sermon I'm not doing just clips and the reason I'm doing that is so that we can get a sense of Of Where he's coming from a sense of his presentation and so on and so forth and Just And the first few minutes how many jokes that norm tells to get folks warmed up, which is fine He has quite the sense of humor, but we had just gotten the point where The sermon really starts and so let's let's pick it up from there.

Ephesians 2, Faith, and the Meaning of Salvation

Let's begin with a scripture.

In Ephesians chapter 2 and verse 1. And this we will a five-point Calvinist. Ephesians chapter 2 they appeal to this verse in support of their belief that man is so totally depraved. So totally sinful so totally apart from God that he cannot even understand the gospel or.

Receive the gospel. He's now notice immediately. This is this is from 2000. This is after the Potter's freedom has come out this is after chose before he's come out and So you would you would like to think that there would be possibly an improvement in dr Geisler's understanding of the issues and his representation of the issues, but did you hear that so totally depraved?

And that man cannot even understand the gospel. No, I know all sorts of unregenerate men. Dr. Geisler who fully understand the gospel. No one has ever said they can't understand the gospel. They cannot spiritually embrace it.

They it is foolishness to them but I I remember very clearly doing a radio program with an atheist on the Tom Likas show back in the 1980s at some time and He the the atheist without any particular religious background or anything Could give a very good summary of exactly what the Bible teaches on the subject of salvation.

He understood it. That that's not the issue. It's not a matter of just not taking in certain not being able to take in certain facts. It's not having enough intelligence to To do something. No, that's that's not the case at all the reality is That the unregenerate person will not embrace that will not bow to it will not accept it Cannot have a spiritual understanding of it in the sense of recognizing his or her own sin.

The glory of Christ revealed therein the mercy of God revealed therein, etc, etc, etc. That is the issue. And not just what we just this can understand that for those of you who have not heard. My response is Norman Geisler in the past.

Maybe you haven't read the Potter's freedom you go. Well, wait a minute Norman Geisler is a great scholar. Well, he's done good work in certain areas but when it comes to reformed theology it is very plain to me that Norman Geisler made up his mind on the subject as a young man and Has never opened his mind to hear what a reformed person has to say ever since then.

He made up his mind and he only hears what he wants to hear at that point now. He's never listened to what I have to say about reformed theology because from Norman Geisler's perspective I am too young for him to learn anything from me.

Dr. Geisler has this idea. He told me about it personally many years ago that No one who's under 65 should ever write a systematic theology. Therefore. Dr. Grudem systematic theology was a waste of paper and that basically, no one younger than him can teach him anything and So that's why he was so dismissive in the in the appendix that he had his students write in response to the Potter's freedom and that's why it was a work of anti-scholarship on the level of Gail Ripplinger.

It is that bad. It is the single most ridiculous piece of material that Norman Geisler has ever put in print and Still needs to be withdrawn with apologies to everyone who ever even read it. It is that bad and I've documented that and not only to document on the website for many years.

But I've now put that information into the new edition of the Potter's freedom so that will Hopefully help you to understand why it is that we're gonna hear misrepresentation after misrepresentation. Over the course of listening to this sermon is because the dr. Geisler simply on this issue has a major blind spot.

He will not to give consideration to the reformed position in any meaningful fashion, so we're gonna take our break. We've got a phone call. We'll try to sneak in here real quick and then get back to dr. Geisler right after this.

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Thank you.

And welcome back to the dividing line. Let's go ahead and sneak a phone call in here and talk with David. Hi David. How you doing? What? Yes, sir.

Hi, I got a quick question about learning biblical Greek. All righty. Hopefully I'll just make this quick. I've been trying to learn biblical Greek for the last two years and hopefully I've learned something.

I've actually went through Mount's book did all the homework and whatnot. And now I'm trying to go through Wallace. Not so much straight through it's kind of thick but bouncing around.

Did you get the big thick one or these the the the green one or the sort of? Pepto-bismol the unabridged. Okay. See the the abridged ones a little bit easier to get through. That's why Dan did it. Is that.

I had used his text when I taught Greek exegesis and it's just it's just too big. I mean, it's a great it's great to have on your on your shelf. But as far as the textbook goes the pepto-bismol colored ones easier.

I'm not finding it. Okay, but the problem is is that I end up forgetting like so much. So much in there I was wondering do you have any advice for me and how to actually retain it like activities or something like what what you like?

What kind of homework you would give a student or whatever? Yeah, well.

It sounds like what you're talking about is not so much the grammatical stuff as it is the syntactical Categories the the various kinds of genitives and things like that. I would Aim a little bit lower until you're you have better facilities at reading.

I Used a much smaller text. I'm trying to remember the name off top my head when I think Winbury was one of the authors. To basically learn the syntax and a little broader categories not quite as many sub sub sub sub sub categories as you have in Wallace so that you have a more of a Generic feel for the syntactical stuff.

That's easier to to memorize. It's easier to utilize In doing syntactical studies but as far as you know most of the times when I had the opportunity of teaching Greek back of starting at 95 into the early part of this decade and then my reason I stopped doing is that the the seminary grew and they were able to hire regular staff to do that kind of stuff and I just teach in apologetics, but Most of the people I was teaching at that time were people who were in seminary and While they wanted to learn this stuff they were also taking so many other classes.

They just couldn't put a lot of time into it. And so I had to teach survival Greek in essence that is you know, I only had 15 three-hour sessions in a semester to go all the way through mounts and. So you can imagine the pace that that's going at and for some people that's good.

It's sometimes for some people It's the only way they're gonna do it is if they're gonna be forced to do it. It sounds like you have the self-discipline to go through a little more slowly. So for someone like you the best thing you can do is read read read read read if you have.

Back when I was doing this, we didn't have a reader's Greek New Testament where you could just you know. Drop your eye down to the bottom of the page get a lexical form and continue on. We had to use sake Kubo's readers Greek lexicon to to do that kind of reading but it's just exposure to the language and reading and reading and reading and and Not being afraid to push yourself.

You know, it's roots. It's too easy to stay in John and in familiar parts of Romans or something and stay out of Luke and Hebrews. Because when you when you wander in there, it's like what language is this?

Anyway, you know. So you got to set aside some time to you know. Crash through you know, what I would do is I'd crash through Hebrews and and if you're using like a read the readers Greek New Testament, just just plow through it admit you're not Doing a great job, but just get that familiarity with the syntax and how it's different and then go back through it more slowly.

At another time, but for me, it's just it's just exposure. It is it is. The more often you use it The the more is going to stick over time and. That's just all I've I've learned. I mean obviously some people find certain things to be extremely useful.

Maybe using flashcard systems for the syntactical categories and stuff like that. But for me, especially with my schedule now, it's just it's just using it. It's it's being exposed to it. I try. I can't always do it.

But I try to preach from the original language text as much as I can without an English text. That that pushes you as well, especially when you have to read the text beforehand. That's always a challenge and I mean from the pulpit actually lead the congregation and reading through your text.

If you have to do it without the English there, you really need to know the text pretty well so. Those are some of the things that I've done Personally and I've found students to find all sorts of different ways to be helpful to them because we're all different as to how we Remember things we really are.

Yeah.

Categories the. The vocabulary is not a real big problem for me because I have like a million right so. Yeah, I print I print out different all the different forms of Luo. I want to look at how in the world you can possibly get this form from this form and.

Yeah, but you know, you know I have found though while I do this I've done the same thing. I think I went down to the five word at one point. And and there's all sorts of computer programs that'll do vocabulary for you, but you know the various forms of Luo.

I don't so much. Read tables of that as it is again. Just reading the text. And encountering though and seeing those forms and the more often you see them the more they stick. I've just never been one.

That's just you look at the table and it really sticks real well, but it's when you see it. Over and over again. That's when it really starts sticking for me. Anyways, yeah.

I'm gonna take that into advisement because what I've been doing it's not working.

Well, I always tell all of my beginning students carry your Greek New Testament with you to church as long as you're not the one doing the preaching and You know if there's reading from the New Testament, whatever it is.