Jerusalem Jones

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation if you'd like to talk with dr.

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White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

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Here is James white And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning.

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Make sure you Write down keep track of this information Thursday.

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We will again be doing the program at this time. I am teaching

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For Golden Gate right now, and I have a class on Thursday evenings and therefore we need to Do again as we did two weeks ago.

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I have it on Thursday now we are currently for those of you who are very angry and upset and gathering pitchforks and Heading toward our offices.

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We are at this moment uploading the The last few programs and so you will be able to sort of OD on the dividing line this week

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The the programs will be up. I think they have three programs today and That way you'll you'll be all satisfied and all happy and things like that.

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At least we hope anyways, so And I thought last last week's programs went pretty well.

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So appreciate Barry sitting in and Of course, it was funny to find out after the first program that when

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I looked I was that hey, by the way Did did you start that recording? Oh, yeah. Yeah, everything's cool. Then after the program is over well, actually

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Yeah, so they get the thumbs -up sign I'm not really certain that thumbs up is actually a thumbs -up sign but Yeah, sort of maybe not sure sort of you know

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It's funny but anyways, we got it fixed and it's it's uploading or maybe already uploaded possibly that one

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First one's already uploaded. So the second one will be going up after the program The 11th is actually uploading as we speak.

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That's interesting that we're taxing our connection Duck tape all the did you put new batteries in to help get things going?

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All right good Yes He he well, um, it was paused.

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Yeah, well paused and recording means it's not recording. That's the problem So we need to keep that in mind.

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Anyhow Thursday we will do the program and then Friday I head for New Jersey and I look forward to meeting all of you in the

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New Jersey, New York area I've put the entire schedule up on the blog It was a few days ago and people are starting to miss it

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I may have to repost it just simply so that it's up there and People can see it, but we'll be a

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Trinity Fellowship Church Saturday night and Sunday morning Trinity Baptist Church in Montville Sunday night

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Then the Sovereignty of God conference. I believe I speak on Monday and Wednesday Which means

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I should not be Speaking on Tuesday. I actually think might I might have a day when

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I'm not speaking which is Not a day off Because this

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Golden Gate class that finishes Thursday night They're turning all their papers in so I've got their assignments of book reviews so on so forth to grade

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While I'm on the road that's that's always lots of fun getting your email and trying to grade stuff and keep keep who's who straight and Email folks back and then this wasn't long enough and so on so forth while we're on the road

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And then of course the Sham Siali debate now tomorrow the dialogue tomorrow will be

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On iron sharpens iron Sham Siali and I will be on and it will not be the same thing as as the actual dialogue

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We'll just be talking about more general things, you know The importance and necessity of Muslims and Christians dialoguing

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Talking being honest in their disagreements Going against what the world would have us to do in essence

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Where the world would have us to pretend like we have no differences I was last night reading from surah 5 in class and was talking about say not three

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The use of Ali translation says Trinity Say not three cease desist to be better for you it is blasphemy and You know when when one religions

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Inspired book says that the central affirmation of another's is blasphemy.

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Well, you can't just sweep that under a rug You've you've got to talk about it openly.

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You've got it. That's the only way to be respectful to to both religions Did you may not have heard this yet?

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Jimmy Carter this morning was over in the Middle East and they tried to kill him Well a number of times apparently they cleared several mines along the way

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The why would they want to kill Jimmy Carter? Yeah, he sure is but in his speech

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He says listen We all and he's referring to Israel Palestinians and himself we all call

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Abraham our father. We all worship the same God We only do it using just different disciplines

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Different Discipline Interesting so thankful that Jimmy Carter was only a one -term president

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And in fact, it's just sort of sad that he was our president at all, but anyway Yeah, thank you.

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Thank You. Mr. Carter. We we appreciate Your input anyway, so tomorrow we're gonna be on iron sharpens iron talking about that kind of stuff

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I would assume that we'd be talking about that kind of stuff and So you want to tune that in? That's at 3 o 'clock 3 p .m.

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Eastern Daylight Time WNYG go to sharpens blogspot .com and you can listen live and stuff like that.

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And So that'll be going on then and then starting Thursday or I'm sorry

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Friday I'll be speaking once Friday twice Saturday and twice on Sunday on Long Island at various churches

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Let's save a reform Baptist Church and and hope and grace and they're all on the blog and so I'll be very busy at that particular that particular time, so Anyway, that's what's coming up and I'll be back

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Lord willing on Monday and Lord willing There will be something left of me to do something on Tuesday I'm gonna get back and get back into the routine

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Keep the trip to Australia in prayer. We It's really different I don't

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Schedule things. Well, I am NOT good at this stuff and we've got folks in Brisbane.

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That's where I'm going to be Trying to trying to find some Muslims to debate and then folks in Sydney also trying to set something up So and and I'm a good friend has has offered to pay to fly me from Brisbane to Sydney if we can do that And they're both saying well, there's opportunities.

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There's options. It may come together We've got to get flights booked and There's no way of knowing how to do this until that stuff gets figured out, you know, and So pray that's could come together as quickly as possible

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So that so we can do this in a and I would love to it'd be great to have one debate in Brisbane one debate

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In Sydney, that would be wonderful if we could work it out there's a real need for this kind of dialogue to be taking place down there and I would love to see it happen.

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It provides the longest term Benefit over time because those debates, you know

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Minister a long time down the road also Lord willing I've gotten some slightly positive news about getting the eight debates from last year with Muslims released from purgatory

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But keep praying about that too because that has been a real burden for me all the work that I put into doing those eight debates and not have the videos or even the audios for that matter is not a good thing in any way shape or form and So there's there may be some positive movement on that.

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I certainly hope so but so anyways got a lot a lot going on and that's that's that's exciting so last time we

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Were listening to some Norman Geisler But before we get back to good old norm,

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I wanted to spend a little time with a recent

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Catholic answers appearance as in yesterday and I thought someone in channel had a really good idea as to how we should start any

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Segment where we're talking about this particular gentleman, so I think we'll do it Yes, indeed folks, it's the

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Indiana Jones music, but it's for Jerusalem Jones. Yes, Jerusalem Jones Steve Ray How would you like to get your theology for a man wearing a hat like that yes indeed that's what happens

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When you listen to Steve Ray on Catholic answers live

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I Thank you very very much for that. I you know I grabbed that during the opening music of this program

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And I was sitting going come on little doll. Don't fail me now Because sometimes it just stares at me and goes.

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I'm not gonna do that. No you bet you're asking way too much of me, right? But we got to work anyhow.

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I was listening. I didn't get to listen to much of yesterday's program yet, so James Swan go ahead and listen to it because I'm sure there's lots more later on that I could play clips from but right toward the beginning

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He mentioned that he's been a Catholic now for 15 years and Steve Ray likes to talk about how he was an ignorant Baptist and Unfortunately, he doesn't make the connection there that he was an ignorant

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Baptist and therefore what he thinks Baptist actually believed Generally isn't because he was an ignorant

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Baptist by his own confession so anyway He was talking about that and the subject was

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Mary so let's I just want to respond to this one Particular portion right at the beginning of the program for you

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Mary was a big problem for our conversion because When we looked at Catholics we got the perception that they worshipped

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Mary more than God They prayed to Mary more than God. They loved her more than Jesus and It almost appeared to us that Mary Had become the fourth person of the

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Trinity even though that doesn't the numbers don't work, right? But that was the perception that many

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Evangelical Protestants get you you would look in the door of a church and there are people lighting candles and kneeling in front of a statue to Mary and from our perception and Evangelicalism pray is almost synonymous with worship those two are very almost indistinguishable

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Prayer and worship are pretty much the same or synonyms And so when you see somebody praying in front of a statue kneeling down you say oh there it is

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They're worshipping Mary instead of Jesus, and you walk away, and you're disgusted with Catholic Mariolatry instead of Mariology yes, and that's the way it's perceived until you understand it now

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It's funny Patrick because if you'd have looked in my bedroom window 15 years ago What would you have seen you'd have seen me kneeling in front of an open

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Bible on my bed as I prayed and read through? the Psalms or some of the Passages of the

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Bible before I went to bed at night and there you would have said ah look at Steve He's worshipping the Bible. He's praying to the

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Bible. Bible -olatry. Yes, it's a matter of perception Because if you came to me and said

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Steve are you worshipping that book out? I said of course not I'm using it as a devotional tool and to help me and assist with my prayers to God Now let's let's just ask a simple question is there really a parallel?

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Between Praying as he says before an open Bible and what

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Roman Catholics do with Mary I I I just popped open the file the electronic file of My little book which unfortunately is no longer in print

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Mary another Redeemer and I just just opened up to the chapter chapter 7

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And I just want to read you a few things here And let's see if there is a meaningful parallel between this doctor of the church now

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Steve Ray is not even In the clergy he has no official standing whatsoever in the

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Roman Catholic Church but France but that's not the case for many of these individuals including

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Liguri who is a doctor of the church Alfonso Stela goody a

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Doctor of the church his the book the glories of Mary 80 editions

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I believe over the years and so significantly more representational of Roman Catholic theology than then

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Steve Ray, but let's just listen to a few of these and See if you might detect a slight difference between a

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Baptist Reading his Bible and then kneeling and praying he's obviously not praying to the

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Bible. He's not saying Oh Bible save me This is now if he did that as a

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Baptist that tells you a lot about what kind of a Baptist he was But that's not what's happening but that is what's happening in the prayers of the

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Roman Catholic who is bowing before Mary and praying to Mary Let's uh, let's just read a few things here and see what happens the praise of Mary is inexhaustible found

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The more it is enlarged the fuller it gets and the more you fill it so much the more is it enlarged? that if all the tongues of men were put together and even if each of their members was changed into a tongue they would not suffice to praise her as much as she deserves and Never lose an opportunity either in public or in private of unkindling in the hearts of others those blessed flames of love

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Which which they themselves burn towards their beloved Queen that to honor this

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Queen of Angels is to gain eternal life That this most glorious lady will honor in the next world those who honor her in this

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Rejoice my soul and be glad in her for many good things are prepared for those who praise her

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And he says the whole the sacred scripture speak in praise of Mary the devout Thomas a campus represents to us

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Mary recommending a soul who had honored her to her son and Saying my most loving son have mercy on the soul of this servant of thine who loved and extolled me

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That as the most sacred room of Mary womb of Mary was the means of salvation for sinners

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The hearing of her praises must necessarily convert them and thus also be a means of their salvation

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Oh blessed are they who bind themselves with love and confidence to these two anchors of salvation

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Jesus and Mary Certainly they will not be lost. Let us love Jesus and Mary and become

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Saints We can neither expect nor hope anything better. Hail. Oh Queen.

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Oh mother of mercy Hail our life our comfort and our hope we the banished children of Eve cry out unto thee to thee

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We send up our sighs groaning and weeping in the veil of tears Come then our advocate and look upon us with those pitying eyes and after this our banishment show us

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Jesus the blessed fruit of Thy womb. Oh merciful. Oh compassionate. Oh, sweet Virgin Mary you tell me folks if There is not a world of difference between Roman Catholic Mary olatree and Bowing before an open

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Bible and praying to God when you're not praying to the Bible Jesus isn't some mere aid in Devotion The Bible isn't some mere aid in devotion in Roman Catholicism Mary is not some mere aid of devotion.

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She is the object of devotion so the only way that parallel would work was if Steve Ray was bowing before that Bible and lighting candles before that Bible saying

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Oh Bible Save me You're one of the anchors of my salvation

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You are the one who'll be merciful to me, etc, etc, and nobody will do that Yeah, so there you there you go.

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Once again Jerusalem Jones not exactly accurate in in what he says about his former life, you know what

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I think about when I It strikes me that these guys do a lot of spinning to try to work their way around That person kneeling at the

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Statue of Mary Concept and well, we're not worshipping. We're just praying Mike you read

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Liguri and I had to help you do some of those Verify some of those quotes from Liguri when you were writing that book and it drove me crazy, right?

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It really yeah, it's it's not easy to cite it I when I hear Steve Ray make a claim like that to try to distance

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Himself and the modern church. I don't know what his mindset is if however, he wants to describe it

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Would he pray that prayer with Liguri? Well, that's just it You know, I've told this story many times before but I remember very very very very clearly when

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I was in the Studio on W EZE in Boston with Jerry Manateeks, and I read that prayer

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Which also is found in Liguri But I found it in this little pamphlet And I I just found it blasphemous

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I found it offensive it was it talked about Deliver me from the world the flesh the world the devils and Jesus my judge and I mean no born -again regenerated believer could ever even

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Contemplate the blasphemy of that prayer and yet you were given indulgences for it And I read that on the air and I fully expected

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Jerry Mad Tick's to respond with Oh James, you know, that's not official teaching.

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That's just popular piety blah blah blah blah and when he Looked through those that forest of just like we have right here microphone stands when he looked through that forest of microphone stands at me and he said

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Mr. White I I pray for the day when you can pray that prayer with me. I about fainted Now my recollection is that in the

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Marian doctrines debate? I think that radio interview took place before the Marian doctor to be two years As my recollection as you pointed that out to the audience and he stepped up and reiterated that point.

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Yes, he did There's no question about it But that's Jerry Mad Tick's and we all know Jerry Mad Tick's is not an orthodox

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Roman Catholic anymore, right? So we can just ignore everything Jerry Mad Tick's ever said even when he was on staff at Catholic answers

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I think the reality is that Steve Ray would be forced to admit the

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Roman Catholic orthodoxy of Liguri's book and it's in its statements

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I would love once again, you know to get these guys to engage these subjects in a meaningful fashion in debate

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I mentioned last week when I played the Purgatory section by Tim Staples I I think a lot of folks would find a debate between myself and Tim Staples on Purgatory and does the

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Bible teach Purgatory? Tim just let me know the time the place have to be there

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I think I'm gonna send him an email along those lines because listening to his massacre 1st

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Corinthians chapter 3 I I Would just really think that it would be very useful to folks to hear

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Tim Staples answer direct questions If now we'd have to do a primer on how to do cross -examination with Tim because he hasn't figured that out yet as we all

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That that in cross -examination you ask questions you don't take the time to make further statements and and you ask brief questions you don't ask two -minute questions and You know and the fact the matter is

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Tim knows that and he just didn't care to follow the rules of debate at that point but once again

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Standing open challenge to Tim Staples to debate that or Steve Ray. I would love to debate

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Steve Ray and Mary That would be so very enjoyable, but that is also about as likely as well

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A lot of other debates I can think of that are never going to take place because once again

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They've got absolutely nothing to gain from that and and everything to lose but there you go there's our our

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Jerusalem Jones updates and we'll be well, we'll come back to that at another time in the future, maybe

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James Swan can get me some more clips from that particular one and we can Take some time to listen to Some more

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Jerusalem Jones your source of really bad theology Okay, well anyhow on to more important things eight seven seven seven five three three four one

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Why don't it's not that it's not important. I mean, let's face it there are Hundreds of thousands of people around this world today absolutely trapped in gross idolatry

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Trusting Mary for their salvation and I say I've said it before and I'll say it now again

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Mary has never ever heard a single one of those prayers. Not a one I don't believe my

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God would allow Mary to know of the idolatry that takes place in her name on this planet

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I just don't believe it and so I just They've never she's never heard those any of those prayers folks you've been misled you've been deceived and So while we might have a little fun with Steve Ray, we have to either have to laugh or cry given that people take this man seriously, but That's that's where we go

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Transitioning now eight seven seven seven five three three four one is the phone number transitioning now to what we began last time which was a review of Norman Geisler's a sermon

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Which he's delivered a number of times but it is entitled why I'm not a five -point

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Calvinist and It continues to make the rounds. It's on YouTube.

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I get asked about it rather frequently and So I wanted to play the entirety of the sermon

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I'm not doing just clips and the reason I'm doing that is so that we can get a sense of Where he's coming from a sense of his presentation and so on and so forth and Just And the first few minutes how many jokes that norm tells to get folks warmed up, which is fine

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He has quite the sense of humor, but we had just gotten to the point where The sermon really starts and so let's let's pick it up from there.

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Let's begin with a scripture in Ephesians chapter 2 and verse 1

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And this we will a five -point Calvinist Ephesians chapter 2 they appeal to this verse in support of their belief that man is so totally

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Depraved so totally sinful so totally apart from God that he cannot even

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Understand the gospel or receive the gospel Now notice immediately.

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This is this is from 2000 This is after the Potter's freedom has come out.

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This is after chose before he's come out and So you would you would like to think that there would be possibly an improvement in dr

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Geisler's understanding of the issues and his representation of the issues, but did you hear that so totally depraved?

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And that man cannot even understand the gospel. No, I know all sorts of unregenerate men.

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Dr. Geisler who fully understand the gospel No one has ever said they can't understand the gospel.

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They cannot spiritually embrace it they it is foolishness to them, but I remember very clearly doing a radio program with an atheist on the

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Tom Likas show back in the 1980s at some time and He The the atheist without any particular religious background or anything

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Could give a very good summary of exactly what the Bible teaches on the subject of salvation.

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He understood it That that's not the issue It's not a matter of just not taking in certain not being able to take in certain facts.

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It's not having enough intelligence to To do something. No, that's that's not the case at all the reality is

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That the unregenerate person will not embrace that will not bow to it will not accept it

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Cannot have a spiritual understanding of it in the sense of recognizing his or her own sin

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The glory of Christ revealed therein the mercy of God revealed therein, etc, etc, etc

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That is the issue And not just what we just can't understand that for those of you who have not heard

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My responses to Norman Geisler in the past. Maybe you haven't read the Potter's freedom you go. Well, wait a minute Norton Geisler is a great scholar.

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Well, he's he's done good work in certain areas but when it comes to reformed theology it is very plain to me that Norman Geisler made up his mind on the subject as a young man and Has never opened his mind to hear what a reformed person has to say ever since then

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He made up his mind and he only hears what he wants to hear at that point now He'll he's never listened to what

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I have to say about reformed theology because from Norman Geisler's perspective I am too young for him to learn anything from me.

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Dr. Geisler has this idea He told me about it personally many years ago that No one who's under 65 should ever write a systematic theology.

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Therefore. Dr. Grudem systematic theology was a waste of paper and That basically no one younger than him can teach him anything and So that's why he was so dismissive in the in the appendix that he had his students right in response to the

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Potter's freedom and that's why it was a work of anti -scholarship on the level of Gail Ripplinger It was that bad.

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It is the single most ridiculous piece of material that Norman Geisler has ever put in print and And Still needs to be withdrawn with apologies to everyone who ever even read it

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It is that bad and I've documented that and not only to document on the website for many years

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But I've now put that information into the new edition of the Potter's freedom so that will

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Hopefully help you to understand why it is that we're gonna hear misrepresentation after misrepresentation Misrepresentation Over the course of listening to this sermon is because the dr.

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Geisler simply on this issue has a major blind spot He will not to give consideration to the reform position in any meaningful fashion.

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So we're gonna take our break We've got a phone call. We'll try to sneak in here real quick and then get back to dr.

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Hello everyone. This is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

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The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

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Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha -Omega ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses

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Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?

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We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well

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Support Alpha Omega ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

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Thank you And welcome back to the dividing line let's go ahead and sneak a phone call in here and talk with David hi

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David How you doing? Hi, Dr. White. Yes, sir. I got a quick question about learning biblical

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Greek. All righty. Hopefully I'll just make this quick I've been trying to learn biblical grief for last two years and hopefully

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I've learned something I've actually went through mountains book did all the homework and whatnot. And now

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I'm trying to go through Wallace Not so much straight through it's kind of thick but bouncing around did you get the big thick one or these the the the green one or the sort of Bismol the unabridged.

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Okay. See the abridged one's a little bit easier to get through. That's why Dan did it Is that I had used his text when

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I taught Greek exegesis and it's just it's just too big I mean, it's a great it's great to have on your on your shelf

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But as far as the textbook goes the pepto -bismol colored ones easier I'm not finding it.

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Okay, but the problem is is that I end up forgetting like so much

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It's just so much in there. I was wondering you have any advice for me and how to Actually retain it like activities or something like what what you like what kind of homework you would give a student or whatever.

34:23

Yeah, well It sounds like what you're talking about is not so much the grammatical stuff as it is the syntactical

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Categories the the various kinds of genitives and things like that. I would Aim a little bit lower until you're you have better facilities at reading

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I Used a much smaller text. I'm trying to remember the name off top my head when

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I think Winbury was one of the authors To Basically learn the syntax and a little broader categories not quite as many sub sub sub sub sub categories as you have in Wallace so that you have a more of a

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Generic feel for the syntactical stuff. That's easier to to memorize. It's easier to Utilize in doing the syntactical studies, but as far as You know most of the times when

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I had the opportunity of teaching Greek back of starting at 95 Into the early part of this decade and then my reason

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I stopped doing is that the the seminary grew and they were able to hire regular staff to do that kind of stuff and I just teach in apologetics, but Most of the people

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I was teaching at that time were people who were in seminary and While they wanted to learn this stuff.

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They were also taking so many other classes They just couldn't put a lot of time into it. And so I had to teach survival

35:44

Greek in essence that is, you know, I only had 15 three -hour sessions in a semester to go all the way through mounts and So you can imagine that the pace that that's going at and for some people that's good.

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It's sometimes for some people It's the only way they're gonna do it is if they're gonna be forced to do it It sounds like you have the self -discipline to go through a little more slowly.

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So for someone like you The best thing you can do is read read read read read if you have

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Back when I was doing this, we didn't have a reader's Greek New Testament where you could just you know

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Drop your eye down to the bottom the page get a lexical form and continue on We had to use

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Seiki Kubo's readers Greek lexicon to to do that kind of reading but it's just exposure to the language and reading and reading and reading and and Not being afraid to push yourself

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You know, it's roots It's too easy to stay in John and in familiar parts of Romans or something and stay out of Luke and Hebrews Because when you when you wander in there, it's like what language is this?

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Anyway, you know So you got to set aside some time to you know

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Crash through, you know, what I would do is I'd crash through Hebrews and and if you're using like a read the readers

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Greek New Testament, just just plow through it admit you're not

37:07

Doing a great job, but just get that familiarity with the syntax and how it's different and then go back through it more slowly

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At another time, but for me, it's just it's just exposure. It is it is The more often you use it

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The the more is going to stick over time and That's just all

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I've I've learned I mean obviously some people find certain things to be extremely useful Maybe using flashcard systems for the syntactical categories and stuff like that But for me, especially with my schedule now, it's just it's just using it.

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It's it's being exposed to it I try I can't always do it But I try to preach from the original language text as much as I can without an

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English text That that pushes you as well, especially when you have to read the text beforehand That's always a challenge and I mean from the pulpit actually lead the congregation and reading through your text

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If you have to do it without the English there, you really need to know the text pretty well so Those are some of the things that I've done

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Personally and I've found students to find all sorts of different ways to be helpful to them because we're all different as to how we

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Remember things we really are. Yeah The Categories the the the vocabulary is not a real big problem for me because I have like a million different ways to do that Like the way

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I I'm learning now. I'm trying to go down to a 10 word count Mm -hmm trying to push myself there and I like a 25 now, but right

38:32

So what I did is I took all the words and I put it into a I put it into Excel and I do this pivot table and I can just search and Yeah, I print

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I print out different all the different forms of lua When I look at how in the world you can possibly get this form from this form and Yeah, but you know, you know

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I have found though while I do this I've done the same thing I think I went down to the five word at one point

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And and there's all sorts of computer programs that'll do vocabulary for you, but you know the various forms of lua

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I don't so much read tables of that as it is again just reading the text

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And encountering though and seeing those forms and the more often you see them the more they stick I've just never been one.

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That's just you look at the table and it really sticks real well, but it's when you see it Over and over again.

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That's when it really starts sticking for me. Anyways, yeah Well, I always tell all my beginning students carry your

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Greek New Testament with you to church as long as you're not the one doing the preaching and You know if there's reading from the

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New Testament, whatever it is You just expose yourself to it expose yourself to it Even if someone's preaching the Old Testament get yourself a septuagen you can still you can still expose yourself the language

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I keep an Arabic Bible at church and That's what

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I'm doing as a beginning Arabic student is You know on Wednesday nights pastor fry preaches through the psalter.

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And so I Get that thing open and I struggle and I you know

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Have to skip over a bunch of the stuff because I don't know what it means But my vocabulary is expanding my exposure is expanding.

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I see forms and things like that. That's how I do it You know, it's different for other other folks though.

40:17

Okay, sounds good. I hate to do this, but do you have any recommendations for Hebrew? Well similar along the same lines.

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I mean Erdman's has put out as a son of it. I'm sorry has put out a companion to The the mounts stuff.

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Yeah, I have not now. Yeah, I've not used it so I I taught through I learned through in wine grin and I taught through The Asian name anyway,

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I'm sorry. What say oh, yeah say oh and But again, there's now a reader's

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Hebrew version out which again gives you exposure and If you look at it, you notice

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I put a bunch of things on the ministry resource list a bunch of fascicles most people didn't know why

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I put those on there and no one's picked any up yet either but one of the things I like to do is

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The biblically break is Duke. Artencia is a big thing to carry around But at Phoenix Reformed we we spend a fair amount of time in any one

41:23

Old Testament book preaching through an Old Testament book on A Sunday evening so I can just stick like right now. I have

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Jeremiah In my in my Bible. It's just Jeremiah and so I can always look at the

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Hebrew that way without carrying around some huge Volume in the way and so I want to get the rest of the fascicles

41:40

Because it's broken up into like Genesis and in Exodus and Leviticus. Those are all separate Separate volumes you can buy and carry with you just as a single book and again, it's exposure

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It's seeing the words and and seeing a syntax. That's that's how I do it. So, all right

41:55

Okay, thanks David, thanks for calling bye -bye 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 we go back to Dr.

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Norman Geisler's dead Ephesians 2 1 says and you he made alive who were dead in trespasses and in sins

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In which you once walked according to the course of this world according to the prince and the power of the air the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience and Then he goes on to say in verse 3 who were by nature the children of wrath and These God made alive verse 5.

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He made us alive. So there we were dead in sin Like a dead corpse floating on the water

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That could not hear could not see could not understand and could not believe but God in his grace according to a five -point

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Calvinist Reached down and gave life to that corpse. Now that giving life is called regeneration giving life to the soul imparting to a

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Dead person life and according to five -point Calvinism We are so dead in our sins that we can't even understand the gospel first Corinthians 2 14 the natural man

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Does not receive the things of the Spirit of God for their foolishness unto him neither

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Can he understand them because they're spiritually discerned? how would that understanding be obviously a spiritual understanding that is a recognition of the relationship of God's commands

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God's righteousness God's holiness and Me as the sinner recognizing my own sin no longer seeking self -righteousness

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Etc. Etc. Etc. As I said, there are many Unbelievers who understand what

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Christians are saying It will not be an argument against the reformed position to go up. But see that's not true.

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Look over here Here's an unregenerate person who understands the gospel well until he embraces it That that's not an argument and it would be the argument of Scripture that as first Corinthians 2 says

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That until the Spirit of God brings about spiritual life that person is incapable of Doing what is pleasing before God which would include repentance and embracing

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Christ So Ephesians 2 1 1st Corinthians 2 14 become part of the basis for this belief

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That we're so totally depraved that the only way we could possibly Get saved is if God made us alive first and then after we are made alive

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Then we are capable of believing and that faith follows Salvation faith is not the condition by which we get salvation

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Salvation is the means by which we get faith Now here is another very common error of dr.

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Geisler and those who follow him Dave Hunt and others And that is an inaccurate use of terminology

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And frequently what ends up happening is they will use Terms in one way and then they will equivocate on those terms at another point to create an alleged contradiction in the

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Reformed position Salvation is a very broad term. It can be used of the entirety of God's work in regards to redeeming a particular people unto himself

45:22

Including glorification is not even yet taken place There is a sense in which we are being saved and a sense in which we are not yet saved

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If you want to use it in its broadest sense because well We aren't there yet But notice what was just what just happened and that is dr.

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Geisler. It has made the connection between regeneration and Salvation now regeneration is a part of salvation a person who has been regenerated is experiencing

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God's salvation But to make the two identical to one another is where you have the problem and It's very easy to create artificial shallow contradictions by equivocating on these terms

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Which which Reformed writers themselves do not do but I do not get the feeling that especially in the teary logical context that Dr.

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Geisler reads many Reformed folks or if he is reading their books just sort of skips over what they have to say at that particular

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Point now having thus explained what the five -point Calvinist means by the

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T in Tulip I would like to tell you why I do not believe in the

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T of tulip as defined by the extreme Calvinist Now let me

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Just mention in passing that while dr. Geisler did just give us a part of What total depravity is he does not give the whole in chosen, but free

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He said that we don't believe that man has a will and of course we do believe that man has a will

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It's just that that will is in slavery to sin because of the fallenness of man's nature of course when you're a radical

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Libertarian if he wants to call us extreme Calvinist, and I'll call him a radical libertarian And unless you affirm an absolute autonomous human will then you don't believe in any will at all

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You cannot believe that man has a will and yet because the fallen nature only presents the will

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Fallen desires there therefore is a form of slavery Which results in a biblical teaching that unless regeneration takes place you cannot do what is pleasing before God?

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But that's just not a free will according to them and therefore they can just simply dismiss it and say we don't believe man has a will when we do it is and again remember this sermon is being delivered in a

47:49

Florida Calvary Chapel and except for some Glaring and joyous Exceptions there aren't gonna be too many people there then

47:59

I go. Hey you wait a minute that that That's not quite what they they believe, but that's why the folks can get away with that I do not believe it because if you look at the context of this verse in Ephesians 2

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You will notice in verse 8 That it says that this is received through faith for by grace you have been saved through faith

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Now if you're saved through faith, then what comes first logically the salvation or the faith?

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If you're saved by faith faith comes before the salvation right now

48:42

No First of all we just we just saw the equivocation Where he's he's equivocating between salvation and regeneration making them

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Identical and coextensive and that is not what we are claiming in any way shape or form

48:58

But beyond that the what Paul wrote was take our car to TS day assesses manoid diapist

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OHS Diapist OHS is the the mechanism the means

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By which a a past action and this is a is a paraphrastic construction in the original language and He's simply stating that this salvation which the

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Ephesians have experienced and are continuing to experience is

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Something that is theirs by means of faith as in opposition as we're going to see in the very next phrase

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Chi to talk X who moan that is not of yourselves as the gift of God So he's identifying faith as a passive mechanism

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But he is not Making faith prior to regeneration. He's making faith the means by which

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Salvation takes place, but notice only by making the equivocation that Geisler has snuck in there without providing a foundation

50:07

Can he make this kind of argument that well salvation means everything which must include regeneration, so If faith is the means by which salvation is mediated then that must mean that faith can't be a gift of God and Regeneration can't come before that because faith has to be the first thing etc.

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So that's not Paul's point in fact but it Is the argument that Geisler is making?

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Whereas the five -point calculus believes that salvation regeneration comes before faith

50:43

Romans 5 1 says we are justified by faith So faith is the means by which we get justification

50:53

Justification is not the means by which we get faith now notice again Dr.

50:59

Geisler is is bouncing around and and you see how when you can slow something down and just think about it

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You can see where the holes are in the argumentation, and that's why we're doing this

51:11

That's why we did this back, and we did this on KPXQ as I recall many many moons ago Not this particular sermon this was before this sermon was was preached this is back in late 90s about 99 as I recall and we did that response and Many people found it so very useful because let's face it

51:28

We are we are not making ourselves popular by doing this kind of Response you're not supposed to respond to people like Norm Geisler.

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You're not supposed to respond to William Lane Craig There are a lot of people who feel you're you're divisive.

51:45

You're unkind you're unloving and I am just of the opinion in fact of the conviction that Thank you the entire series is number 46 in the bookstore

51:56

I wonder who has that memorized hmm as available in mp3 format.

52:01

Thank you very much He behind the microphone over there Anyways, I am of the conviction a very strong conviction that Christians are benefited by hearing disagreement honest accurate

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Disagreement between Christian leaders that is biblically based and is meant to be understandable to them

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Now that makes me a part of a very small minority but I Absolutely believe that and that's why

52:32

I keep doing this and that's why we stay as small as we are But it's I just I think that it's helpful to take the time to say, okay

52:41

Therefore having been justified by faith. We have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. What kind of faith justifies? Well Paul in the preceding chapter had described what justifying faith is what saving faith is and we know there are people

52:54

Who have non saving faith? We know there are people who have As first John would put it they were amongst us, but they went out from us.

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So it might be demonstrated They're not truly of us there. There are people who have non saving faith. What's the difference between saving faith and non saving faith?

53:11

Is it is it me? Well from dr. Geisler's perspective evidently it is it can't be of grace it can't be a divine initiative and So obviously when

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I look at Romans 5 1 I don't see some ordo salutis here in the sense of well justification is the same as regeneration and therefore

53:35

If you were justified by faith, then that means that faith has to be this autonomous human act

53:41

See if you really boil down what Geisler wants to do here is he simply cannot have

53:47

Salvation being an autonomous divine act It has to be an autonomous human act

53:53

God enables it God makes it possible But fundamentally all synergists have to assert to to avoid the horror of divine monergism and Everyone embracing the hair saying it's a heresy to believe in human

54:13

Monergism that God doesn't do anything and man does it all no one believes that well almost no one believes that I Suppose there's somebody out there.

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We all would have to do is is It's look on YouTube, and I'm sure we could find it

54:29

YouTube the source of every possible human heresy but anyway The the synergist the one who believes in in in to those those two cooperating forces

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You can say it's one big big force from God and one little force for man

54:48

But what will always unite the synergist is it's the little force for man that determines whether the big force from God is actually going to accomplish anything that's the issue and You're seeing how dr.

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Geisler is doing one of the things I teach is philosophy And one of the main modern philosophers was called

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Rene Descartes, and he said I think therefore I am well actually he got

55:15

Descartes before Deshorst because You have to exist before you can think

55:21

I exist therefore. I can think I don't exist because I can think I Think because I exist so I think the five -point

55:30

Calvinist has Descartes before Deshorst You have to believe in order to be saved believe on the

55:37

Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be Saved now see again the equivocation

55:44

No Calvinist has any problem with believing the Lord Jesus Christ, and now shall be saved that's not the issue it never has been the issue and to to assert that it is is either dishonest or is born of an ignorance created by tradition and When you are in the position the doctor

56:05

Geisler is in where you just simply refuse To listen to what the other side has to say and accurately represent it and by the way

56:11

If you have not read the Potter's freedom I think I can say with all honesty, and I believe that many people even those on the other side will agree with this that my representation of Norman Geisler's position the

56:22

Potter's freedom was incredibly accurate while he may say otherwise every

56:29

Allegation that he made I demonstrated. He hadn't even bothered to read the section that I was talking about so No one has shown me in any way shape or form

56:39

Where I ever misrepresented Norman Geisler I ever showed him disrespect by misrepresenting his position so when

56:45

I? When I say he should be more respectful to reform people by accurately representing their position at least

56:51

I have a basis upon Which to to say that didn't say wait to get zapped by God You're just dead corpse wait to get zapped by God and once you're saved then you'll be able to believe

57:05

Again, not overly accurate representation. That's not what we're saying Wait to get zapped by God You would hope that if there's going to be any meaningful interaction with the actual position that we take that there's going to be some discussion of for example

57:22

Romans chapter 8 and Its assertion that those who according the flesh cannot do what is pleasing to God they cannot submit themselves to the law of God is

57:30

It not God's law to repent and believe is that not the command of God's laws to repent and believe well

57:37

Romans chapter 8 tells us that when we're in the flesh we cannot do what is pleasing to God So how can we do that?

57:46

You combine this with the descriptions of both repentance and faith as gifts from God Not not the idea of prevenient grace

57:56

To where well by grace you can be made enabled to do these things But actual true repentance and true saving faith gifts from God, so we will continue listening

58:08

Carefully and examining very carefully But dr. Geisler has to say and I think when we do so you we will be able to demonstrate that dr.

58:17

Geisler has not in fact provided any type of meaningful response to the

58:22

Reformed position. We'll be back remember Thursday Morning, not Thursday afternoon, but Thursday morning same time here on the dividing line.

58:30

We'll see you then The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

59:35

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59:42

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59:48

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