Monotheistic and Polytheistic Faith

Alpha & Omega Ministries

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

Comments are disabled.

00:12

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

00:19

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

00:27

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

00:32

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation if you'd like to talk with dr.

00:38

White call now It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll -free across the

00:43

United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

00:50

James white And good morning, welcome to the dividing line James white here

00:56

I can barely hear myself at all because we didn't test this out before we we switched microphones, but Well, we'll we'll figure this out as long as I can hear our collars it's sounding a little bit better For a while.

01:11

I was very very basic there anyway We we have some very important stuff to talk about today and we are going to be getting to that We're going to be talking a little bit about Mormonism a little bit about Roman Catholicism, but before all of that stuff

01:29

The Christmas season has begun and I've been I've been sitting on a big big secret

01:38

For quite some time now and I finally can get to talk about it and That would that would be big in of itself, but we have someone on the program today

01:51

They don't get any bigger than this. They really truly do not get any bigger than this

01:57

The secret I've been sitting on is there is a new CD that has just been released just in time for the holiday season.

02:05

I'll be putting a link on my blog after the program today But you can you can go to you can go to The website will will even have our guest let you know where you can go even before the end of the program today to obtain for your family

02:24

What will truly become your your most treasured Christmas music album and that is because For the first time ever.

02:34

I mean, this is bigger than when Elvis did blue Christmas. It it it truly is we have

02:42

The new CD is called a very Milo Christmas and on the phones today.

02:49

I am truly Truly truly just Excited beyond all words to have on the phone the the the king of all farm music

03:02

Milo Hudson Buehler good and talk here Milo V Gates between and yeah, hi there.

03:07

Dr. Wright. How was you? I is good. Is it cold in North Dakota? Oh brother

03:12

You should have been here I had one of those glibbers go through glibbers.

03:18

Yeah, I deliver. I don't know what a glibber is Roberta glibber comes from Canada from Roberta And then the wind she blew 50 miles hour 50 miles an hour and it was below zero below zero for November This is that's just no good.

03:39

Oh, it's not a good thing to below to below the farm Were you were you up late taking care of the cows leave us?

03:47

Yeah, I am you us we had to we had to change out a few things. I had the schedule. I'm sorry

03:52

Oh, I had a schedule Oh schedules. Yes schedule. Yes Yeah schedule.

03:59

Okay. Were you using tweezers to pull things out of their little hoofies? Oh, no, I made them stay inside last night.

04:06

Okay, I shut the barn It was rough on me too because I got a cold. I hope my voice isn't too scratchy

04:12

It does seem to be out of your normal range, that's okay. Well, I'm Gratefully, I hope

04:18

I get better by tomorrow because I got a rock concert tomorrow. Oh, yeah, but I got the cold I went to my doctor because you know, we rock stars.

04:25

We got to take care of our voices Yes, so to my doctor here in Strasburg. It was one of the days he was in he's only there two days a week

04:32

Because he's in another town those other two days. Yes. Yeah, and then another town and the 50 Yeah, I was

04:39

I was in my I was in my call and I said doc, can you cure me no, no you got common cold

04:44

We can't cure that. I said I got I kind of lost my temper at him I said can't what kind of doctor are you?

04:50

It's just a cold. Can't you cure anything? Yeah, I guess I was grumpy You're grumpy. I said can't you cure anything and I he said, okay, here's what you do

04:59

Milo And he kind of got mad at me. He looked at me. Here's what I want you to do You go back to the farm right now

05:05

Then you go go out to your stock tank and you take off all your clothes Swim around for 10 or 15 minutes or 20

05:13

Then you get out. Don't dry off and leave your clothes there Go back to the house and go to bed with the windows open and the covers off.

05:22

I Said is that gonna cure my cold? He said no, but it'll give you pneumonia and I can cure pneumonia

05:30

And How much did he charge you for that advice I wonder I was regular price Now Milo we have to ask you this is your first Christmas album effort so far, yeah

05:46

That's that it would be I was close but What what?

05:53

Inspired you to to do a Christmas album. I had I had I had enough songs

06:00

Is that is that how? Once there are enough songs you just do the album Yeah, sort of that's how this

06:05

I can write and I write and I write and when I write enough songs Then then this time now some of these people and I love my fans

06:13

I wanted to give them an extra gift for Christmas. I don't have to do this, you know No, you don't we realize that it's it's like Elvis only had to do one or two and all the rest were just the kindness

06:23

That's hard, but I love my fans. You like I said, like I said on my blog my fans

06:29

I desecrate all my songs to my fans They are they are the hydraulic fluid that lifts my baler fork

06:39

All right, so let's let's see if we can get some some stories here

06:44

I'm a little concerned because has has the North Dakota Chamber of Commerce heard your

06:51

CD yet? No, I don't think they done because I'm there were a couple there are a couple songs like my county agent

07:00

That I I sort of wondered if if they're going to really appreciate What what you said about your county agent?

07:08

Why don't we why don't we play folks a section of this song and we'll Okay Okay He knows a whole lot less than me,

07:50

I mean Okay, and that's okay I sung this for the county agents excuse me

07:58

Yes, I sung this for the county agents back in October Oh, they had a conference at the

08:03

State University where all where they all meet and did they like it? They loved it They left it

08:09

Yep, they picked me up on their shoulders Carried me out of the room and they kept carrying me

08:18

Yes, and they turned their backs they Well, there was also a section and I'm gonna play this whole song later but there's also a section from Winter in North Dakota.

08:32

Oh, yeah aware It just seems the Chamber of Commerce Might have a little struggle with you're talking about keeping the riffraff out

08:42

That's our state motto. That one just got beat out for the license plate Okay, and also cold fingers and winter in order there sort of is a theme here about That it's a little different in North Dakota than it here is here in Phoenix where we

09:04

At Christmas time, it's cold Well here. Yeah, it is.

09:09

They're in North Dakota not here in Phoenix. No No, we we do like decorate palm trees and our and our cacti in our rock lawns

09:18

Well, you have yeah, you got those cactus down there and then those those were those chilo monsters, yeah

09:26

That sound like a mixture of Gila monsters and choyas, but I'm not really certain which one's which but I don't know either.

09:32

We do need to get Milo down here someday to to sing for us all but That would be fun.

09:37

Especially like in January when it's 70 here and it's 70 below there, but I don't know Hi, I don't know how to act

09:44

It would be I was in San Diego in the wind the winter for four days a couple of years ago

09:50

And I it was nice. It was 50. Oh, yes. Yeah I was walking on short sleeves and and unfortunately you could only afford to be there about 30 seconds in San Diego I had a hotel.

10:01

I was there to do concerts. Ah, they pay for everything. Oh, yeah I was high my hog was high that your hog was

10:09

Now it seems like there's one particular company that is very close to Milo's heart

10:15

And I'm not sure if if you're sponsored anything like that I wouldn't want to ask a question like that, but but let me just play a little segment of this particular song here, okay

10:26

It's supposed to be playing Oh, I know this one The John Deere dealers come into town now

10:58

I hear a lot about John is John Deere big up there. Maybe possibly well, it's not the only tractor there is but there's populous.

11:05

Yeah So green and yellow is sort of well that and well,

11:12

I guess Wisconsin do because people think then you root for the piggers

11:17

I was about to say cuz what does anybody in North Dakota root for the the Nebraska Cornhuskers?

11:25

corn huskers never They used to be a really good football team, but they've sort of fallen on hard times recently

11:33

I don't know about those things. I'm busy with rock and roll Now big school here they got beat

11:40

Which big school was that would be the University of North Dakota? I? And what

11:46

I've never rich even even rich is going the the what the University of North Dakota.

11:51

What's their mascot? God oh, they're in trouble with with the natives. Oh the fighting

11:58

Sioux Group, what is that in in a PC a piece of those guys?

12:04

Yeah, they want to make them change it Oh, yeah, that's all over the place. That's bad.

12:09

So they're fussy and bossy now now So Milo, where can people go right now because I can tell

12:16

I'm looking at our video monitors There are crowds outside of our studios right now And they have signs saying we want

12:23

Milo's CD, and we don't have them here so you can see him on your camera It's amazing. I mean your popularity.

12:29

You just you just have no idea, but I grow by leaps and bounds Yeah, yeah, so so for all the folks are listening.

12:37

How can folks get hold of a very Milo Christmas? Oh The the best thing to do is go to my website, and what's your website?

12:46

Www dot farmboy music Calm farm boy music dot -com and make sure you put those

12:54

W's in there. That's true Otherwise, you'll end up on some other Internet Which we don't want to do.

13:00

Yeah. I know one guy to put ems instead of W's and where'd he end up? Everything was upside down on the screen

13:08

That's not a good thing but So now and you have a blog on your on your website, too, you bet

13:16

I do you I'm up with the times Yes, you yes, that's they make fun of us here in North Dakota because they say we're behind the times

13:23

Yes, not us not you. We're up with the times Well, in fact, in fact, I don't if I'm I think

13:30

I'm correct I think you actually have high -speed internet in in North Dakota. Don't you always say there for high -speed?

13:36

It's not like it's not like poor Carla up in Canada who will be listening to this program tomorrow

13:42

Because it'll take that long to get to her but you actually right? Yeah, it's sort of sad. We thought that's

13:48

Canada, too Yeah, their chocolate tastes better up there. It does. Yeah, it does.

13:54

They got better chocolate. I didn't know though It's a horse apiece Slow internet better chocolate.

13:59

Okay. Yeah, take your pick. Take your pick. Yeah So anyway now Milo since everybody knows everybody's going to your website right now

14:07

I hope your servers can survive the you know, the stress they don't crash like that now

14:12

I noticed also on this very Milo Christmas that You showed just the generosity of your heart in that you allowed a lesser -known person to Sing some songs on a very

14:28

Milo Christmas And so I was wondering This this Clyde Bowman fellow.

14:35

Yeah is is he around does this follows me around everywhere? It follows you around everywhere stalker

14:42

But you all get along fairly well, though. I wanted to get one of those retaining orders against him Okay, but is he is he around right now trust me the dog will get him

14:53

Okay, I usually outside with an autograph book. Okay, let's talk to Clyde. All right Well while my oh a

15:00

Clyde, yeah, hello Clyde Bowman I wanted to I wanted to Thank you for singing some songs on Milo's Christmas.

15:09

Oh, well, thank you for the favor I imagine you two are very close very very very close obviously

15:21

We are now joined by by Clyde the Clyde Bowman and we have so much fun with with Milo Hotzenbuehler You've got to tell folks

15:29

Clyde. First of all, you actually work for a living once in a while, too You teach voice and You you do serious stuff, but tell us where Milo came from.

15:45

Tell us tell us a story if you would well We Have always we've had we've we actually we me and some friends and family and whatnot

15:55

We we had fun with the German accent up here for a long time because we appreciate our heritage

16:01

And I remember very well when I was a kid Everybody would all the all the grown -ups would speak German as well as English and just as easily too

16:07

And if there was a if there was a sensitive topic to be discussed Then you didn't have to chase the kids out of the room.

16:13

He just switched languages And we always wanted to know what that was about we want to appreciate our heritage too and and when

16:22

I got to college I fell in with a couple of fellows that did sketch comedy and This was an idea that we had that was kind of in the hatching stage of what would it be like if you had a rock?

16:33

Band that was nationally famous, but they were all farm kids So when they weren't when they weren't on stage doing concerts, they were they were

16:43

Pitching hay or whatever they were having to do on the farm right and that's where the Hots and Buellers came from So there's a whole group at first.

16:50

We had a whole family of Hots and Buellers Yeah, there was Milo and his brother Daryl, and then there was sister

16:55

June and then An assortment of cousins that changed with every concert. We had six or seven on stage.

17:01

It was a full band No, I don't want to get too personal here, but about how long ago was this now this was in 1974

17:10

Okay, the very first Milo concert was in 1974 1974

17:16

State College in Western, North Dakota. Oh my and we had this huge following And we were very we were very good businessmen to our first big concert we put on to To raise scholarship money for the theater department.

17:32

Uh -huh. Yep. We packed the main auditorium there on campus which holds about 700 people

17:37

We packed it and we charged a quarter a head That's what good businessmen we were

17:44

So you raised lots of money for the scholarship after expenses. It was about $120

17:50

We were very good businessmen. Yes. Yes. Yes So that's that's where the

17:57

Milo thing came from and I was doing most of the writing so So after when college ended and we all went our separate ways then once in a while people would ask for Ask for me to come over and do some

18:07

Milo songs and I ended up doing the state FFA convention future farmers of America And from there one thing led to another and then word kind of got out that Here was this weird act

18:20

Believe me. Nobody does the act I do and then Like I say started getting calls from around the state and then from other states and within about five six years time.

18:30

It was full -time Now how many how many CDs have you put out now The Christmas album is number five number five and they're all available at farmboymusic .com

18:40

now You did get the dog You did get to put some

18:48

Of your own music and I believe you're singing with your wife on Most of them and then also does your is it your daughter that joins us our daughter that joins us on one

18:59

Yes, I've been blessed with a with a loving and musical and faithful Wife and we just celebrated 25 years of marriage yesterday.

19:08

Yes, that's what I heard. We're a little bit behind you That's right. That's right. Just a few months we have always enjoyed singing going out and we've gone out for many years and ministered the gospel in churches and camps and whatever and And we've wanted to record some of that for a long time this was a good opportunity indeed

19:29

Let me let me let me just play a section from when I survey here so that you can hear

19:36

The Clyde and Janet and Sarah all all together here Oh Oh I That is as beautiful music now,

20:31

I you know, I For people who are wondering what in the world we're doing Clyde is a regular in our chat channel

20:38

I don't know how long you've been coming in now Oh, I don't know either. It's three three years or so.

20:44

Yeah, it's been a while and I remember Yeah, I was in pretty early on. I remember you had a computer problem member and You just disappeared and so I I think

20:54

I surprised you to no end Because we're like, well, where did his Nick and channels mutato?

20:59

We call him the the mutated spudster, but So all of a sudden I don't remember where you were, but your cell phone rang and it was me going.

21:09

Okay Where did you go? Cuz it's a little bit of a family there when people just sort of disappear you start going boy

21:17

I hope everything's okay. And yeah, that's one wonderful and unique thing about channel here

21:22

Yeah, it is and then you let us know when you're going out on the road and and you often invite me along in the

21:28

Form of mp3 a format anyways. Yeah, you've logged a lot of miles I certainly haven't and then of course, you'll come in there once in a while and you'll say man

21:37

I've got a cold, you know, and and I'm always going man. I did some singing I'm not gonna do it anymore but I did some singing when

21:44

I was younger took voice and all that stuff and and it is really Hard to try to sing when you're not feeling a hundred percent and especially if you've got to go out and do

21:55

Milo stuff now, of course Milo cracks his voice on purpose at the end of songs that may make it easier for you

22:02

Don't need to be able to get through a phrase. Oh, no kidding Yeah, when

22:08

I hear you Talking about you've got this out of the other thing. I'm always like, oh man. I hope he gets over that so we need to find you some

22:16

Some way of keeping all the bugs away because it's just part of this line of work Well Clyde, thank you very much for calling in today and like I said

22:30

I'm gonna put a link on the on the blog to a very Milo Christmas and I really hope folks will pick it up I know that what

22:38

I'm gonna do here at the end. I played the song. I'm gonna go ahead and and Head out with the the full version of winter in,

22:47

North Dakota. I played this for my mom I think I told you in channel and she she

22:55

Lived for about 18 months in Botano, North Dakota back in the late 30s early 40s okay, and She said they had a record winner that year they were having to fly hay in and stuff with planes and drop them because that you just couldn't get to the cattle and stuff because it was so cold and It was just it was just really really really rough

23:17

And I guess Botano is right up near the the Canadian border from looking at you can spit in the Canada Yeah, it's it is really really really cold.

23:25

Not that you want to do not that you might know that might be illegal in Canada, but but as she was listening to you

23:33

It wasn't that she was laughing. She was going uh -huh. Yeah, okay. Yeah Yeah, you know she's going.

23:41

I'm gonna tell you that year I had to walk two miles uphill in the snow both directions to school

23:48

And she was just like yep. This is this is how it works. This is this is North Dakota. Yeah, it is

23:53

Did you want to say something rich? Yeah, but you have to understand folks have to understand in about two days after that Your mom started laughing

24:04

Okay You have to understand who we're talking this is true. My my dear mother does that's

24:10

Rich knows that that literally you'll tell my mom a joke and two days later She'll call you up laughing because she just got it and she and that makes jokes so much more fun

24:22

You know that way when you do that, but she really enjoyed Winter in North Dakota because she just thought yeah, that's that's what it was like so I thought you'd enjoy

24:31

Knowing how your music was received Someone there, so thanks a lot

24:37

Clyde. We love you. We hope it's the album's a big smash hit We'll do everything we can to let folks know about it.

24:42

Well. You're very kind Right, thanks brother. All right All right, let's let's go ahead and head out with and then come back with some some theological stuff, but we'll head out with Milo Hotzenbuehler and winter in North Dakota We live in and we will until we're dead

25:20

We farm in North Dakota Do your chores and go to bed?

25:30

We got all four seasons summer winter spring and fall

25:36

All winter is the coldest and the longest of them all get your long johns put your hood up And pull your cap down low

25:51

Pack your skin

26:32

City Makes it worse.

27:06

My thermometer is broke. God, let's see You might think it's desolate and stormy every day

27:35

If you do that's fine with us So stay home

27:54

Cuz we don't want you

28:09

Each day's dark till noon Or your thumbs are gone

28:33

Focus keep you warm Doopie doopie doopie doop

28:55

The history of the christian church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith Once the core of the reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine

29:06

In his book the god who justifies theologian. James white calls believers to a fresh appreciation of Understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme

29:20

Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute

29:25

James white proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith

29:32

Dr. J. Adams says I lost sleep over this book. I simply couldn't put it down James white writes the way an exegetically and theologically oriented pastor appreciates

29:42

This is no book for casual reading. There is solid meat throughout an outstanding contribution in every sense of the words

29:50

The god who justifies by dr. James white get your copy today at aomin .org

29:57

Pulpit crimes the criminal mishandling of god's word may be james white's most provocative book yet White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week as he seeks to leave no stone unturned

30:10

Based firmly upon the bedrock of scripture one crime after another is laid bare for all to see

30:16

The pulpit is to be a place where god speaks from his word what has happened to this sacred duty in our day

30:23

The charges are as follows prostitution using the gospel for financial gain pandering to pluralism cowardice under fire felonious eisegesis entertainment without a license

30:35

And cross -dressing ignoring god's ordinance regarding the roles of men and women Is a public crime occurring in your town

30:42

Get pulpit crimes in the bookstore at a omen .org This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the phoenix reformed baptist church

31:00

The apostle paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of god

31:05

The proclamation of god's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church The elders and people of the phoenix reformed baptist church invite you to worship with them this coming lord's day

31:17

The morning bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45

31:23

Evening services are at 6 30 p .m. On sunday and the wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7

31:29

The phoenix reformed baptist church is located at 3805 north 12th street in phoenix

31:35

You can call for further information at 602 -26 grace If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org

31:47

Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and bible study lessons available 24 hours a day

32:13

You know, most people don't know is that that's actually milo on the sacks with john tesh He's been all over the place, man.

32:20

He's he's uh, very highly, uh, highly acclaimed and demanded and He All that kind of I think the words notorious notorious, yes the notorious milo hotzenbuehler

32:32

That's a that's the next album title the notorious milo hotzenbuehler in a black hat and sunglasses or something like that actually, i've seen milo's sunglasses and they're a little bit on the scary side, but He does have a pair of oakley's though he got a pair of oakley's so he can look uh, he can look cool so, uh

32:51

But I think only clyde wears those but uh, anyway, uh back to important things not that uh,

32:58

Not that milo's not important just different realm of importance here um some of you may have been uh following the blogs posted by rob bowman rob has joined the uh, parchment and pen pen and parchment, whatever it is, uh blog site and uh

33:17

Uh, he caught my attention when he mentioned that his review of the millet mcdermott's book called claiming christ a mormon evangelical debate

33:26

Uh, which has one of the worst covers i've ever seen on a book. Um put out by brasos press um that uh his review of the book had been rejected by Uh churchy any christianity post christianity, uh something today tomorrow

33:42

What it once was or will never be I forget the name of the magazine but That particular apostasy today.

33:49

Is that what you're saying? Okay Uh, let's just say christianity day has really changed directions in uh in the recent uh number of years and his review of the book was rejected because he was told that um

34:03

Some of his reflections in the book according to the editorial staff did not actually reflect what was in the book

34:09

Which of course if I were to ever tell someone like that if I was ever to say If I was in a position of having to review

34:16

And be an editor in a in a place like christianity day and I was going to tell someone The reason we're not going to use your material

34:23

Is because we don't feel that you were being accurate with what was being said, you know what that means? I need to give him an example.

34:29

I need to back up what I just said and shockingly enough Um, they didn't do that.

34:34

Uh, they didn't uh bother to to tell him why? uh that was the case and uh,

34:41

I read the review and uh, The citations were accurate and so on so forth. So Uh, it does seem a little bit odd I do have a feeling that there are certain people in post -evangelicalism that have a tremendous amount of influence

34:55

One of them, uh is the head of a particularly uh progressive, uh, theological seminary in california some of us graduate from there and Um, I just have a feeling that the word has gone out that these kinds of dialogues are going to be encouraged

35:12

Within the christian publishing industry and anyone who naysays them Uh, just well might as well not bother doing so because you're not going to get published at least within their venues that that is and some of the criticisms that now i'm

35:28

Considerably less polished than rob bowman in what I say. I'm a little bit more blunt Especially when it comes to mormonism uh

35:36

Those of you who listen regulated to the program you read the blog You know that back after mit romney got into the race.

35:44

I spent a fair amount of time Posting on my blog, uh a lengthy portion from my book is the mormon my brother

35:52

So I wrote this book a number of years ago. It actually will be back in print. We've promised it.

35:57

It will be there um, and um So i've written on this subject

36:04

Did so a long time ago And I got in fact, I got an email from a mormon.

36:09

Uh talking about how I you know How hateful I am as I wrote back and said would you would you mind showing me from what you say you read?

36:16

Uh, these words of hate and of course 98 percent of time you write back to something like that You never hear back from them, uh, because they're not actually either it's bad email address.

36:25

They're using a fake name, whatever uh that kind of thing and I spent the time to document from Lds sources and I I took the time in the book to go through what are the most official sources

36:40

You know, how can you bend over backwards to make sure you're accurately reflecting the teachings of the mormon church?

36:49

And I spent I wrote an entire chapter uh again Directly from the leaders of the mormon church and here's where they say, you know, this is revelation this revelation

36:58

This isn't but this is authoritative and you know going all the way down and then I and then I Took all of my material nearly a hundred pages worth of citations

37:07

And I broke it down according to these categories of differing levels of authority and all of them are saying the same thing

37:15

And so I bent over backwards. I've never had anyone anyone express

37:21

Or exert the kind of effort I did to be fair in representing mormonism

37:26

That I did in representing mormonism when they're talking about me never Okay So you bend over backwards that's what you're supposed to do uh and that that's how you

37:38

That that's how you you know, I think honor truth and that's that's not popular

37:44

That's not going to make your books the most popular books Um, they're not going to stay in in in print as long

37:51

But that's the way you've just got to do it. I I I don't know how else i'll say it So i'm a little blunt when it comes to talking about mormonism because I have spent the time and the study

38:03

To be able to say without question What mormonism has taught historically concerning the nature of god now?

38:10

I could go along with that and say you know what i've also stood outside the The general conference the mormon church has stood outside the sidewalks in mace, arizona

38:19

And spent I don't know how many hours over the 20 years or so that we did that kind of stuff

38:26

And talked to mormons and the mormons confirmed Those things and and so you add to that the research we've done.

38:33

It's not that we just did this in some ivory tower uh, we took this to the streets and Have shared the gospel proclaimed the gospel of jesus christ to many a mormon person

38:45

The fundamental foundational issue between mormonism and christianity is that mormonism is a different religion because it has a different god

38:53

We're not talking about a slightly different perception of certain difficult to understand trinitarian issues

39:02

We're talking about the difference between monotheism and polytheism

39:08

And anybody who reads joseph smith Reads him in his context reads him in his own language is fair to what he said

39:16

Knows that what i'm saying is true. This isn't even a debatable issue

39:23

It's just the facts And to to make that just one area of disagreement is to completely

39:34

Destroy any meaningful discussion of the subject of the difference between christianity and mormonism because There is no more basic way to define a religion than whether you believe there is one true and eternal god the creator of all things

39:50

Or whether you believe well something else And mormonism believes something else.

39:57

It does not believe there is one true and eternal god It does not believe that god is self -sustaining and eternal that he's eternally been what he is

40:06

He is one god amongst many gods. There were many gods before him. There will be many gods after him

40:12

And so everything else you can discuss Is secondary to that because once you start with that massively different foundation

40:21

Completely different view of god that god is of our species that man Men angels and god are of the same species.

40:28

That is mormon orthodoxy Now if the mormon church wants to come out tomorrow if the prophet the first presidency the quorum of the 12 want to come out tomorrow and say we deny denounce and separate ourselves

40:43

From all of the teachings of joseph smith and brigham young and all the prophets and apostles the mormon church up to this day

40:53

Who have reaffirmed this belief over and over and over again? Okay, now we've got something to talk about But you also no longer have a mormon church at that point.

41:05

I assure you you have no mormon church at that point in time and so If If that is the foundation then having any discussions about What mormons think about jesus and what christians think about jesus and even trying to go?

41:26

Oh, well, we can appreciate what mormons say about jesus here or we can appreciate what mormons say about jesus here.

41:32

I find to be absolutely worthless Because we're talking about a completely different religion

41:42

If you're if you're starting off with the idea that the god of abraham isaac and jacob is an exalted man from another planet

41:48

Who worshipped a god before him who worshipped a god before him who worshipped a god before him?

41:54

What what? What use is there? In going. Oh, well, we can appreciate what uh mormonism says about jesus here or about jesus there

42:04

What is the use here? I I don't get it. So One of the things that rob bowman pointed out was some of the statements made by uh, by mcdermott in this book, for example

42:19

Uh evangelicals page 56 evangelicals should be thankful for a host of other mormon declarations about jesus that professor millet detailed

42:26

That his suffering and death save us No, they don't That we are cleansed of our sins by his atonement and resurrection.

42:34

What the one in the garden of gethsemane? How about the doctrine of blood atonement um

42:40

And that his sufferings i'm obviously making some comments here and that his sufferings were endured for the sake of all human beings

42:47

Second nevi 9 21. Well, obviously mcdermott doesn't believe in reform theology in good evangelical fashion

42:54

The book of mormon proclaims the natural man is an enemy to god and has been from the fall of adam Uh, excuse me but um

43:00

If you don't know the difference between the book of mormon and modern mormon theology and the fact that joseph smith had not even developed

43:07

His doctrine of god at the time of writing the book of mormon and that he was actually presenting a modalistic view of the trinity

43:12

In the book of mormon, uh, etc, etc, and then you don't join to that What the fall of adam even in the book of mormon means?

43:22

He fell upward. Hello, not the the rebellion against god that you have in the scripture Then why even mention things like this?

43:30

And that uh, and that that will never end until he putteth off the natural man and becometh the saint through the atonement of christ the lord mosiah 319

43:39

It declares that all mankind were in a lost and fallen state and ever would be and and ever would be saved

43:45

I think there's a typo here They should rely on this redeemer first nephi 10 4 through 6 in other words

43:50

Every human being must trust personally in the redeemer for salvation Well, that's one thing they have to do but there's this thing called the four fundamentals of the gospel

43:59

And it's not enough just to believe there's all these other things and you can bring in exaltation Etc, etc, etc.

44:05

And then of course the main thing that rob bowman pointed out Was uh was this uh particular statement here?

44:13

It's on page 60. Here's the statement This is the concluding statement on balance However, I want to conclude with my happy agreement with professor millet that jesus is god and is the only way to salvation

44:27

Parentheses Although evangelicals and mormons disagree on what these things mean parentheses closed

44:34

Oh good grief There's post -modernism for you folks

44:40

We have happy agreement But what we mean is completely and totally opposite of one another but we're happy that we agree

44:49

If I had hair I would want to tear it out at this particular point in time. What happened to respecting language?

44:57

That's not respecting language. It's not even respecting the mormons for crying out loud I mean isn't the most basic element of communication the definition of terms?

45:09

Don't you have to define your terms first and then find out if you have happy agreement?

45:16

You don't go. Oh, you're saying the same words i'm saying I recognize that what you mean by that is completely different than what

45:23

I mean by that But aren't we happy that we're using the same words? Oh my goodness, i'm, sorry, but I don't see how that shows a scintilla of respect for language

45:36

For truth or for the mormons let alone for the gospel I don't see it.

45:42

Sorry People say oh you you you james white. You're just so confrontational

45:48

James white you just you just don't want to admit there any there's any common ground. You know, what? Um, if you could show me some common ground between monotheism and polytheism

46:00

Then I might have a basis for understanding what in the world you're talking about But there isn't any common ground and you don't accomplish anything.

46:10

You don't Press forward the claims of christ. You do not proclaim the gospel when you pretend that there are

46:18

And the only thing I can come up with is that these folks read the the the old testament And they look at elijah and go man.

46:26

I'm glad I didn't live in his day He was completely off the beam

46:32

And paul and galatians boy, I tell you he must have just i'm embarrassed by that book being in the new testament

46:39

I don't see how else folks could could handle it Because I don't see the prophets and I don't see the apostles functioning on this.

46:48

Oh Let's just look at what? What kind of common ground we can create out of thin air?

46:54

It's not actually common ground Don't step on it because you'll fall straight through it's made out of paper mache But we're gonna say we we have happy agreement because jesus is truly god

47:04

And salvation is only through him. What on earth is that supposed to mean? Because as soon as you press just a little bit on that statement it falls apart

47:15

Mormonism doesn't even have a true deity. How can you then believe in the true deity of christ? That's not what nicaea meant.

47:22

That's not what the new testament teaches And and salvation only comes to him what's salvation resurrection

47:31

Exaltation How does this help anyone I said this years ago when when how wide the divide came out.

47:40

I wrote the review of it. Uh that uh, Got mentioned at the evangelical theological society by craig blomberg

47:48

I read I wrote the review of at the cri journal. We did radio program I was on bam about it all the rest of these things and I said from the start we

47:57

Have been consistent all the way along here I said from the start books like this only bring about confusion

48:08

They bring about confusion It's not because the the facts they cite are are necessarily wrong

48:16

Most of the time they're not But if you don't recognize the foundational nature of truth

48:23

If you don't recognize that certain truths are based upon other truths And that certain truths are more foundational than other truths and post -moderns don't like any of this

48:32

Of course, they live this way Um, they they reckon, you know, i've i've seen, you know apostates from the truth, uh attacking foundationalism and stuff like that But they live this way

48:45

You know what? I mean? I mean For example, uh, they recognize that it is a basic truth of life that you need to put something called gasoline

48:54

Into your automobile, uh before driving it they are not going to go. Well, you know what?

48:59

Driving and seeing the countryside is a is a greater and more pleasant truth than the putting of gasoline in the car um

49:07

They recognize that one is more basic than the other And you can't ignore one, uh, just simply to enjoy the other you still got to recognize that life works this way

49:17

And when it comes to theology there are certain basic foundational truths that once you compromise them

49:23

You can no longer even speak in human language. You cannot communicate anything. You can't proclaim anything

49:28

You can't talk about worshiping a god that you can't tell who he is and if you can't tell the difference between the god of abraham isaac and jacob and the god of the kingfall at funeral discourse of joseph smith then

49:41

I don't know how you function in this world Because there could be no stronger contrast between the two even joseph smith would look at you and go excuse me

49:49

Uh, are are you uh, what's wrong with you? Didn't you hear me saying?

49:55

That I repudiate these false views of god and that it's the first principle of the gospel to know for certainty the character of god

50:03

That he was once a man like you and I That if you rend the heavens you'll see him in the form very form as a man.

50:09

Didn't you hear me saying these things? Didn't you see them contrasting these things against the the secular views of god that is of views in the in the churches of his day

50:20

You're not even you're not even honoring joseph smith By by trying to interpret him in some other way now,

50:25

I understand Mormonism is in flux Mormonism has problems mormonism's growth rate is flat

50:33

Its growth rate has become the growth rate of of natural increase on the basis of birth

50:41

The huge numbers that were flocking through the doors are not flocking through the doors any longer They're still growing but it's a natural growth rate

50:49

And part of the reason I think is because mormonism jehovah's witnesses. These are all

50:57

Messages that were based in a non -post -modern society They were based in authority claims and truth claims and in many ways christianity is the same way

51:10

And they have tried to Sort of fit in And you know mormonism would grow when mormonism said hey, we're the one true christian church

51:18

There was something to believe in there was something to rally around at that time now they've gotten into the well Let's all share our journey thing

51:25

It ain't working for him very well And they are wondering where to go and it is obvious That her scholars especially as more and more of her scholars are trained outside of brigham young university

51:37

Come back into byu and they want to be accepted in the broader category of things And so there are changes going on and there are studies of paul going on and you can't study those things and put that together

51:48

With the teachings of joseph smith because the man was massively ignorant And that's documented.

51:55

It's not like you can make these things disappear. There's something there's these books, you know There's this documentary history of the church.

52:02

There's the teachings of the prophet joseph smith There's the journal of discourses and you can't get away from this stuff

52:08

And if you want to try to turn the book of mormon into a big allegory As some liberal mormons want to do

52:17

Okay But don't call it mormonism anymore because you can tell what mormonism once was

52:25

You can tell what joseph smith wanted people to believe the book of mormon was and joseph smith did not present it as some sort of an allegory

52:33

He presented it as being true And his followers interpreted his words to mean that the nephites and the lamanites were real people

52:41

And they really lived in north america and they really had big battles And the hill kimura was a place where a big battle had taken place.

52:48

It wasn't just a little square of land Down in mesoamerica someplace about 40 miles square that we'll never find

52:56

All of that is a desperate attempt on the part of modern mormon scholarship to find some way of making an excuse

53:03

For this stuff, which just isn't true That's all there is to it

53:09

And so mormonism isn't going to survive as mormonism to try to try to liberalize itself along those lines

53:15

But it's scholars they want to be accepted in the broader spectrum And so there are massive pressures on mormonism and I am not a prophet nor the son of a prophet

53:24

So I can't tell you what's going to happen We can see some of the changes but people say well if we see these changes we need to encourage them

53:32

And here's the big thing. Here's where uh I divide from a large portion of folks is they seem to think that hey

53:39

If you can encourage someone to be a little bit less polytheistic or or be more of a nuanced polytheist

53:47

That that's a good thing That's a good thing to do And a lot of folks sit back and go.

53:53

Well, yeah, it's a little less error is better than a whole lot of error, isn't it? And I go, you know a bunch of people in the churches of galatia according to that book used to worship false gods

54:08

And I don't see any evidence. So what paul did is he came in he started a dialogue where the leaders of the pagan religion got together the leaders the good religion and you have

54:19

Symposiums and you send some people over to your school and the next year you send them over to their school And you sit around you and you build friendships see

54:26

And you make them a little less polytheistic Instead the scriptures say

54:34

That they while you used to worship them which are by nature not gods now you worship the true god

54:41

Somewhere along the line somebody had to say excuse me But the god you're worshiping doesn't exist

54:47

In fact what you're doing by worshiping that god is called idolatry And god's going to punish your idolatry because the true god is has wrath against those who worship false gods and You have a false god and you need to turn from your false gods to embrace the true god.

55:06

That's what you need to do and That isn't what people want to do today.

55:13

That's what we did standing outside the gates of the mormon temple. That's what we did Uh in in mesa, that's what we do when we speak to mormons to this very day

55:23

Is we called them to faith and belief in jesus christ

55:29

To flee the idolatry of worshiping a god who is of their same species They go wait a minute didn't didn't jesus become a man?

55:39

Yes, the gospel is not that men can become gods But that god became a man in the person of jesus christ.

55:44

It was a unique event And while the the glorification of the saints is a tremendous thing it never results in our ceasing to be creatures

55:56

To where we become eternal beings like god and then spawn our offspring throughout the universe

56:03

And that's how you somehow glorify yourself, that's mormon exaltation vast difference between that and christianity you have to call people to Abandon idolatry not to try to be a little bit less idolatrous

56:21

And if you're not doing that If you are cultivating friendships With unbelievers and you know, they're engaged in idolatry and you refuse to identify their idolatry as idolatry

56:34

I submit to you you are not their friend That's not friendship that's friendship of the world that's not honoring god

56:41

That's not honoring his truth and it's not honoring the fact that god uses the proclamation of his truth including that in regards to Idolatry as the means of bringing his people into himself.

56:55

It is in essence an implicit rejection of the work of the holy spirit Together with the word of god being the means by which god draws his people into himself and that's where theology matters again

57:07

Because when your theology is weak and your theology is unbiblical and your theology is focused upon man

57:13

And making man happy then your apologetics has no foundation upon which to stand and your apologetics becomes an exercise in compromise

57:22

And that's what we're seeing all over the place And when people say to me, oh you're you come off like such a jerk well, you know what maybe

57:31

I do and as far as that's due to my sin and my imperfections and And and my not being like christ and I apologize for that.

57:39

But when I ask what is it about what I say? That makes you say that it's almost always.

57:45

Well, you think that mormons should be told they're idolaters Or something along those lines or you say that rome has a false gospel you come off like a jerk

57:54

And I just have to ask well, let me ask you something. Did paul come off like a jerk? And if in the rare instances where I can get people to actually answer the question you go.

58:03

Well, yeah, he sort of did didn't he? Yeah, well anyway Oh what a world we live in I had queued up some stuff between matt slick and tim staples

58:12

I'll keep that queued up for thursday because there are some comments i'd like to make uh about both

58:17

Presentations in that particular discussion and my understanding is it's supposed to be continuing on today So who knows maybe i'll have some more to talk about But that'll be on the next edition of the dividing line this thursday afternoon.

58:28

See you then god bless Crossroads The dividing line has been brought to you by alpha and omega ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at 602 -973 -4602 or write us at p .o

59:39

box 37106 phoenix, arizona 85069 you can also find us on the worldwide web at aomen .org.

59:47

That's a o m i n dot o r g Where you'll find a complete listing of james white's books tapes debates and tracks join us again this thursday afternoon at 4 p .m