Ecumaniacs

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ, based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the Apostle Paul said, �But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

In short, if you like smooth, watered-down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn�t for you. By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes, as we�re called by the Divine Trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her King.

Here�s our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth. Thank you for joining us on No Compromise Radio.

Defining Ecumenism and the Danger of Doctrine Being Left at the Gate

My name is Mike Abendroth. This is Tuesday, so that means Pastor Steve Cooley is sitting three feet away from me, live and in person, in the house. Today, we like to talk about all things considered, the best money NPR radio can buy, no, federal money can buy.

Today, we want to talk about ecumenism, ecumenicalism, sometimes people call that, and Steve, can you give me just a broad definition of ecumenism, and then after that, we want to talk about is there a good side to ecumenicalism, and is there a dark side as well?

Well, the idea is to promote unity within the Christian church, the Christian community in general. And so, generally speaking, what happens is doctrine just kind of gets left at the gate. It gets pushed aside in the interest of unity.

And what happens is there's some kind of goal, a pragmatic goal, maybe no abortions, maybe we just want to be friendly, and Steve is exactly right. The thing that goes first is doctrine, because doctrine divides, and doctrine says, we believe this and you don't believe that.

Steve, the reason why I asked you to do this ecumenism thing today I was wondering what the reason was. Yeah, partly is your Sunday school, and by the way, people can go to www .bbchurch .org and click on Sunday school sermons and listen to your ecumenism series.

It was quite heated this last time. Was it? Yeah, it was. Muy picante. All right, I wasn't in there, but I'd like to listen. Okay. I was reading my monthly Fuller Focus. This is Fuller Seminary's Focus magazine.

It's actually now available online, people can get it

I'm sorry, it sounds like a contradiction, Fuller and Focus.

Fuller .edu forward slash. Focus. And Fuller Seminary, of course, long ago has abandoned the distinctives of Christianity, and they're very open. They're very willing to dialogue. Matter of fact, President Mao's opening article is called Witnessing, Learning, and Cooperating, subtitled Fuller's Commitment to Dialogue.

Fuller Seminary's Commitment to Dialogue with Muslims and Mormons

Now, Steve, hold on to your headphones. I can do that. When a group of Muslim scholars visited our Pasadena campus not long after 9 -11, we moved a large table out of one of our conference rooms and installed a Muslim prayer rug.

This is at a Protestant evangelical seminary.

Is this leading up to waterboarding or something, or Then we invited an I-man. I-man. I-man. Didn't he get kicked off of

Yeah, he's done. Okay. Then they invited one of those guys. Imam, yeah, yeah. I don't think you're supposed to have a hard I sound unless it ends in an E, but that's another subject. From a local mosque to bring a special compass that accurately pointed the direction towards Mecca.

We wanted our Muslim guests to be confident that this was an appropriate place for them to say their prayers. And I thought to myself, it is an appropriate place because you guys are apostate, and the only God that's outside of the real God would be small G gods, Satan and his emissaries.

You know, ultimately, what's the difference between Baal and Ashtaroth? You know, I mean Molech.

Malek. Yeah, they're all good. Now here, I know you're an ex-Mormon, saved by the grace of God. When our Mormon friends show up for in-depth conversations about LDS evangelical differences, we don't have coffee breaks, instead we lay out plenty of fruit juices.

Yeah, well, it sort of reminds me of what one guy, also used to be a police officer, used to say, our slogan should be to protect and not to offend, because obviously they don't want to offend anyone.

To protect the innocent. I think if you live in a neighborhood and you invite some Mormons over and you say, would you like a coffee? Oh, excuse me, you don't drink coffee. Here's some fruit juice. That's fine.

But this is on a broad level. This is 2 Corinthians 6 stuff that ought not be going on. Let me just keep reading and you can be further appalled. By the way, their Northern California campus is housed at St. Patrick's Seminary.

Their Catholic hosts have done a great job. Oh, that's beautiful. The big question, of course, Mao says, is whether we can also make room for the ideas of others, especially ideas that come from outside the Christian community.

We can make room for those ideas, by the way. Now what's his title again? Is he the chairman? Richard Mao? I'm sorry. I took that as a real question. He served as president. That was your second mistake.

And professor of Christian philosophy at Fuller since 1993. He is known for his commitment to principles of civility and dialogue. When I die, I hope I'm known for my commitment to the truth, to no compromising, to holding the gospel of Christ.

To Christ. Sovereign grace. Absolutely. Those are good things. Did you know this? God himself is a champion of hospitality. Indeed, the very act of creating the likes of us was an exercise on God's part in making room.

God was under no obligation or compulsion to create anything at all.

That's beautiful. It just reminds me of how he, you know, invited everyone to come up on the holy mountain with him. Bring whatever they wanted. Yeah, sure.

Bring one of those cows. Bring one of those, you know. Come one, come all. Boy, that is an amazing account in Exodus where after the whole issue and you have got the people making the golden calf with Aaron at the helm and God says, all right, dissolve that in some liquid and drink it down.

And here comes the judgment. Yikes. Well, how about this, Steve? It just does not get any worse. He says, I want Fuller to be working on the answers. And the second I saw that modifying ING, Jaron participle working on answers, he wants to ask the question is to answer it.

It's game over, set and match. It's over. He says, witnessing to others about Jesus is non-negotiable for us. That's one crucial element for us in our dialogues.

What is negotiable though? You know, it's non-negotiable that they're going to talk to him about Jesus. What's negotiable is how they're going to define Jesus. They can kind of, you know, shift that around a little bit to suit the need of the moment.

You're talking to a Muslim, well, you talk about the prophet Jesus. You talk about, you know, you're talking to a Mormon, you're talking, you just talk about the Jesus who doesn't drink coffee and, you know.

Peter. Could I say this, torque it a little bit, Steve. I am amazed that Mao is so quickly deserting him who called him by the grace of Christ for a different gospel.

Well, that sounds pretty Galatians like. Which is really not another.

Only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. This is why it's got me all riled up. And I think I still have a little bit of cold, but I can still think properly today.

What's the name of the newsletter?

Is it called the Fuller Anathema? Is that what it's called?

Well, okay. You're joking now, but now here comes some tears. I don't know if you've ever heard Steve cry on the radio. Always biblical, always controversial, always provocative, always. Always in tears.

Cry baby. Mao said, I believe that when we genuinely listen to those with whom we disagree, we are following through on one of the psalmist prayers, Psalm 139, search me, oh God, and know my heart. Test me and know my thoughts.

I mean, It's baby. You are cutting onions in front of me. I mean, this is, that is sad. I mean, listening to somebody. The only reason I want to listen to someone is so that I can say, okay, now let me go to the scripture and show you, and I'll say it nicer than this, but let me show you your error, my friend, because you need to understand that what you just said doesn't line up with scripture, doesn't line up with God's word, and doesn't ring true in terms of what he's revealed.

In other words, what you've just said is a lie.

What happens, Steve, when these people who in the old days were evangelical, when Fuller was evangelical, and back in the Charles Fuller days, and then you've got people who have died and then have left their estates, their inheritance, their ongoing trust funds, thinking they're giving their money to evangelical organizations.

And then it goes to Fuller. Mao said right after that quote of Psalm 139, this kind of learning is so important for our kind of seminary.

Yeah, for his kind. Well, it is, no doubt. I used to joke that you could go to the Fuller bookstore and you could get everything from John Calvin to Benny Hinn, and you know, apparently now you can get Muslim and Mormon books too, you know?

So, they're very inclusive, I would say.

Billy Graham has been an important model for us in this regard in his cooperative evangelism approach of seeking partnership with anyone who would support his basic message of offering salvation through Christ to lost sinners.

Now, I don't defend Billy Graham very often, but I mean, there you have it. I mean, we're going to say that cooperation means we have to extend our reach to Mormons and to Muslims and just everybody who has a good thought about Jesus.

Well, I agree.

Billy Graham did, sadly, and still does sadly, I don't know if he continues to do these anymore, he's so old he can't do it, but he would have Roman Catholics on stage, and to me, what's the difference between a Roman Catholic or a Mormon?

They both have a gospel of works, which is no gospel at all, because it's not good news, it's bad news. And so, he would, but he wouldn't have them up on stage talking and dialoguing and misquoting Psalm 139.

I actually appreciate some of the old Billy Graham preaching in his crusades, sadly, with the altar call and sadly, with signing the card and sadly, with the Catholics on stage, but I just read this and I thought, this is shameful.

The world promotes, so let's get together. The world promotes, we've got to be nice and dialogue, and I'm all for good manners, I'm all for wearing deodorant and brushing your teeth before you preach the gospel, but gospel needs to be proclaimed, to be trumpeted forth like an angel saying, this is the word of God.

Proclaiming the Gospel Instead of Seeking Common Ground Outside the Gospel

Pete Well, it's like I've been saying in our apologetics class here in the IBS class on Thursday nights, I mean, when we, if we were to engage in that sort of thing, we're seeding the ground of the gospel and trying to find, we're looking for common ground outside of the gospel.

Why would we do that?

Paul Is that S-E-E-D or C-E-D-E? Pete It's C-E-D-E. Paul That's right, we are, we're seeding that, we're just…. Pete Giving it up. Paul Yes, we're just saying, oh, go ahead and take it over. We know we've worked very hard to get this island called Iwo Jima, and we've lost a lot of blood, but it's no big deal.

We'll just dialogue. Pete You just take it back. That's right. Paul We like healthy ecumenism, and for those who are fighting fundamentalists and who don't want to have any kind of partnership with anyone else and second-degree separation, we don't agree with that.

If you have a Presbyterian Church of America pastor, and you have a Baptist pastor, there's some healthy camaraderie that can go on, even though they might differ in the Lord's Supper, they might differ on baptism.

Don't you think there can be healthy ecumenism?

Pete Absolutely, because the essential element is this, it is the gospel. Paul King James Bible. Pete Well, certainly, you know, which one, 1611? Oh, we talked about that last week. Paul No, the one that John the Baptist used.

Pete If it was good enough for him, it's good enough for me. But if you go and picture Chairman Mao, anyway, yeah, you can cooperate with people who faithfully proclaim the gospel, who believe in the inerrancy and fallibility of scripture, who hold to the fundamentals of the truth.

What you cannot do is you cannot cooperate with people who are often left field concerning the deity of Christ, concerning the nature of saving faith, essential elements of the gospel.

Pete. If they want to get together and they want to hear you preach the gospel, I think that would be fine. I think it would be appropriate. But we don't get together to kind of somehow put something together in a syncretic, syncretic, that's not a word, some kind of hybrid.

Paul. Syncretistic. Pete. Yeah, yeah, that's what I want. Syncretic though, I think that sounds like a William Buckley word.

Well, I mean, in other words, it's not, let's put aside what we disagree on and let's all get together on what we agree on and let's, we'll go grab some hot dogs, some marshmallows, sit around the campfire and sing songs that won't offend anyone.

Paul. They have to be tofu hot dogs if you'd like Seventh-day Adventists though. Pete. Which we would. Paul. So we've got spirit. Yes, we do. We've got spirit. How about you? How about together for the gospel?

Healthy Ecumenism Among Those Who Share the Gospel

On the positive side, we're not here to just slam. There are good examples of ecumenism together for the gospel. And Al Mohler, a Baptist, Southern Baptist, Mark Dever, Southern Baptist, I guess we know why they're together.

Well, CJ Mahaney, Sovereign Grace, Charismatic, Calvinist, yes. And who's the last guy? Ligon Duncan, PCA Presbyterian. And so, they're all together. Their blog is quite interesting. They disagree on all kinds of things, more than sports disagreements.

They disagree on baptism and other issues, but they love each other because they have been loved first by God. Pete. That's right.

And they agree on the essentials of the Christian faith. You could go to any one of their churches and you're not going to hear a different gospel, a Galatians 1 .8 Anathema gospel.

Pete We can. Even, as Calvinists, can't we have healthy ecumenical relationships with Arminians? Pete Sure.

Yeah. And what it all gets down to is what is the gospel? Do we agree on the nature of saving faith?

Pete I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight, that those professors were all corrupt. That is Joseph Smith. He doesn't even have my notes, but he knows that.

Pearl of Great Price, History 1, colon 19.

Pete. He's describing the visitation, the alleged visitation of the Father, God the Father and God the Son, Jesus Christ, who appeared to them as two physical beings, two personages, distinct, although when you see Mormon literature and Mormon videos, they look amazingly similar.

In fact, you would think they were twins. But yeah, that's what he said. He said all the other churches are an abomination. In other words, here's always been my problem with Mormonism aside from all the theological problems.

But Jesus said, upon this rock, I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. But Mormonism says that Jesus failed, that the truth was abandoned by the disciples a short time after Jesus died, that when the apostles died, the truth went with them, and that the truth disappeared for 1700 years from the face of the earth until Joseph Smith restored it.

Pete. Well, when Mormons come to my house, there's not much interfaith dialogue going on, Steve. I basically say the same thing each and every time. Those of Pete. How about monofaith monologue? Steve.

That's exactly right. And so I ask them, I know you have a Bible, they usually carry a King James Bible, and I say, would you please look up a few verses for me? I don't have my Bible handy, which means I don't have it right there.

And so I ask them, please read Romans 9 .5. Please read Titus 2 .13. Please read 1 John 5 .20. And I ask you the question, is Jesus God? And then they're forced to say to me, Steve, right there, yes, but they have a different definition for God.

And then I have to tell them that they don't really believe in that divine second person of the Trinity. And I have to tell them that they're going to die in their sins unless they repent. They don't believe in a sacrifice that's sufficient to save people from their sins.

And then they start getting all flustered and they don't like it when I say, I'm here to talk. You're on my house. You either listen to me or you get off my property. And it's always the same thing. Don't get so huffy.

Can't we kind of dialogue? Well, the next time somebody comes to your house and knocks on the door, knock, knock, knock, knock. Oh, we've got some strychnine for you. And actually it's in dark chocolate from C's and you won't really taste it too much.

It just goes down smoothly and nicely. And within a few moments you'll be dead. I don't know how you'd treat the people, but I think you'd call 911.

Well, you know, the main thing you'd want to do in that case is wait for a burning in your bosom. A little strychnine might give you a burning.

My grandmother, I'll never forget the time where I just was a brand newly saved. And I said to my grandmother that Mormons needed to be born again. And she said, with a disdainful look, Mike, Mormons believe in Jesus too.

Oh yeah, they do.

They just believe in a different Jesus. In fact, this Jesus, I once was interfacing or dialoguing with a returned Mormon missionary and I'd been recently saved and I said to him, I said, you're not a Christian because he was trying to tell me he was a Christian.

And I said, you're not a Christian. And he said, oh, I'm a follower of Christ. And so, I started asking him about Jesus. And I had to ask several questions until I could finally get to the root of the matter because they've been so well trained.

I had to say, was there ever a time when Jesus did not exist? And he said, yes. Well, there you have it. He's not eternal and therefore he is not God. In the Mormon view of things, Jesus became, now listen to this carefully, became a God.

He didn't become even God. He is the God with which we have to do, according to Mormonism, not the eternal existing God, the creator of everything and sustainer of everything.

Pete. Well, and once you have a Jesus who's less than divine, he does not have enough righteousness to go around. He would have enough for maybe himself or maybe his mother, the Virgin Mary, mother of God, but he would not have enough and then he would not have an infant righteousness to give.

Joseph Smith said, quote, God himself was once as we are now and is an exalted man and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and suppose that God was God from all eternity.

I will refute that idea and take away the veil so that you may see. He goes on for other, you know, blasphemous things, but that's found in the King Follett discourse, King Follett's folly discourse, McConkie Godhood, page 295 from Joseph Smith's Journal of Discourses, 6 colon 3.

Bruce R. McConkie, I mean, listen, I was steeped in all of these things. I know quite a bit about it and it's just, it's frightening to think that so many people believe that anyone would believe, frankly, that Mormons are Christians.

Growing up, we never would have said that and just understanding what historic Christianity is, here's another example. Mormons teach that God created, he didn't create anything, he sort of rearranged that which already was.

That's not Christianity. Christianity is that God created everything out of nothing. He said, let there be and there was. So, you know, the difference is between an all-powerful God and between basically your next-door neighbor who through time became a better person until he reached Godhood.

Pete. That sounds like evolution in the McConkie degree. This is Mike Abendroth and I'm with Steve Cooley, No Compromise Radio on WVNE 760 here locally in Worcester or on podcasting. If you want to go to nocompromiseradio .com, there's Facebook apps there, there's Twitter, there's iPhone, not iPhone yet, but after I saw Grace to use iPhone app today, that is rocking.

Steve. Yeah, we need a NoCo. Mike. NoCo iPhone app. What would it have? I don't know, but it would be really cool.

Steve. Oh, I know. You could like on your keyboard type in compromise and it would strike it out all the time. How about that? No compromise.

Mike. No compromise. Well, what we're talking about today is ecumenism and here's our main goal. You say, all right, that's fine and dandy. We agree with you. We understand it. We don't want to be compromisers and have unhealthy, anti -2 Corinthians 6 ecumenism.

So what do we do? Friends, if you have unbelievers who want to talk with you in dialogue, our suggestion is that you proclaim the truth. Oh, it doesn't mean you have to shout them down and there's a way to talk to people having coffee.

This is completely different than having theological leaders invite them to their seminary campus and then throw the Bible out for the sake of God wants you to be hospitality for fruit juice drinks and breaks.

What we're talking about is when you have unbelieving friends that don't believe the gospel, remember you have the commission from God to preach the truth. I don't think you'll find things in the Bible about sharing about some kind of interfaith dialogue.

And so you tell them the truth and the truth will either save them or it will harden them or it will do the work of ground plowing until God is pleased to save if he is pleased to save. And so we want to encourage straight on preaching versus some kind of friendship evangelism that never gets to the truth.

Well, imagine this, you know, a friend, a loved one was in a coma on your front lawn. Would you just walk by them day after day after day? Would you do nothing to help them? You know, just kind of go, well, you know, I hope they sort it out themselves.

No! You'd call 911 and so you go, okay, well, I'll call my pastor to evangelize them. Well, here's the difference. The difference is if you are a Christian, you have in effect been given all the training you need to perform CPR on that person in a coma or actually dead on your front lawn, you can do it yourself.

You don't need any help other than the scripture and the Holy Spirit.

The Gospel, Not Interfaith Dialogue, Is the Christian Response

Pete. Unless you're a Mormon, because then there's a second chance of salvation. Joseph Smith quotes, so long as a man will not give heed to the commandments, he must abide without salvation. If a man has knowledge, he can be saved.

Although if he has been guilty of great sins, he will be punished for them. But when he consents to obey the gospel, whether here or in the world of spirits, he is saved. Discourses 6 .8.

Pete. Yeah, just, I mean, they would teach that unbelievers, non-Mormons go to a spirit prison where they are given a second opportunity, violation of Hebrews 9 .27, but they're given a second opportunity to believe and if they believe at that point, then they can still get to the highest degree of heaven, which is, of course, is where they will eventually become gods.

Joe. The close of the show has come, sadly, way too fast.

This has gone by fast today, hasn't it, Steve? Pete. Yes, it has. That's what happens as Christmas gets closer. Joe. That's true.

Here's what I want you to think of, lastly, no-compromise radio listeners. Aren't you thankful if you're born again, if God has known you through the person and work of Christ Jesus, aren't you thankful that you're not caught up in all this?

Aren't you grateful unto God that you're not still reveling in Mormonism, moralism, some kind of Moroni-ism? You have been saved. Your eyes have been opened. You know the truth. We have to be the most thankful people in all the world, regardless of our health, our wealth, our lack thereof.

Ten seconds, Steve. Pete. And it's not a matter of opening a dialogue with people because they've got, as Mike said, strict nine to offer. You need to give them the truth.

Give them the antidote with no compromise. See you tomorrow.