66 - Church Governments

Well, welcome to the striving for eternity Academy, this is a ministry of striving for eternity.

We're glad to have you with us.

We are right now in our school of systematic theology.

We've been going over basically, this is lesson number 66 of The

class of an introduction to systematic theology in our school of systematic theology.

We're right now in what we're calling book number four because we kind of broke this up into four Syllabuses just so that

each of them would be about equal length roughly and this is called God's program for the ages the doctrines of the

church and Last things in other words eschatology.

So we encourage you to get your copy of the syllabus.

If you don't have one you could pick one up at our store at store dot striving for eternity

org the syllabus is systematic theology book four.

So with that said and it's a good to have a syllabus just to have the notes and follow along.

You could take your own notes since some things that I have That I say are not in the syllabus and then there's things in the syllabus that

I don't always say.

So it's good to have the syllabus just for that reason.

So this lesson we're gonna be going over today is lesson number three and we're calling this the church's

government.

Who he said the nasty G word government?

Yeah, I know we're not supposed to be like talking about government, right?

Isn't that what some people think?

No, we're not using government in a bad sense.

It's some people hate the government.

So but here's the thing.

We're talking about the way the church governs itself.

And and as we discuss the the government of the church, we're gonna

address how they make decisions.

What's the process in which decision -making is and who has the power in decision -making?

That's really what is the issue?

Who's who's the authority when it comes to decisions and we're gonna look at various views

of The different churches and the way they organize themselves and this is where this is helpful

if you get asked the question of you know.

What's the difference between Presbyterians and Baptists and Lutherans and brethren and you know, all these different all

these denominations.

Well The biggest area that you're gonna see the differences in the major

denominations is going to be in how they govern themselves.

And that's what we're gonna do.

So this is really the you know within Lutheranism.

There's a bunch of branches but Lutheranisms have like a set way.

They govern the church in the set way that they have some basic beliefs.

They all agree on same with Presbyterians and Baptists.

But the where the difference is is gonna be in how they govern themselves and let me say right up front I know I'll get to this in

the end as well, but I do not think that scripture is really clear

on.

Specifically how a church governs itself and so with that we're gonna go through this lesson probably in one week.

And we're not gonna look at a single passage of scripture because there isn't much.

I mean what I find is a lot of people look at different passages of scripture and they read a meaning into the text.

To say I'll see this form of government is biblical.

So with that said I don't think too much of its biblical.

I think a lot of its more practical.

There's some pros and cons or advantages and disadvantages to each of these.

We're gonna look at them and we're gonna see which ones I will tell you at the end.

Which one that I kind of lean toward and I actually kind of lean toward two different ones.

So just saying but the point being is this is not an issue that we should be

dividing over.

I know denominations have divided over it, but I'm saying as brothers and sisters in Christ.

This is not an issue of division on how someone runs a church.

I've seen some churches that do that some people make an issue that their way is the only way to run a church.

You're not gonna hear that here just saying all right, so.

So let's start with the views of government.

All right.

There are basically five and that's your blank there.

If you have your syllabus, there's basically five views of how the church is governed.

Note that the titles Given to them are merely attempts to

describe the particular form of government.

Okay, it's just something there's nothing.

Some of these are used by others as well some are not so it's just this is just an attempt to try to

give a Description to the five different forms the orders given

are more or less representative represents a progression towards the

biblical church government and so the idea being Just a hint that there is

a we're gonna try to go through I think.

Somewhat historically chronologically how some of these governments had formed over time.

And and and where it got to where I'm gonna lean towards so I'm just that's kind of a hint

I'm at the end but.

But I I'm again I'm not saying is notice I'm saying where I lean.

But it's not something I could be dogmatic on some of them.

I'm gonna be a little bit more dogmatic than others.

I'll give you reasons why I think some are weaker than others, but I'm not saying they're unbiblical by the way.

There's a difference between non -biblical and unbiblical.

So let me be really clear I think the government of the church Outside of as we looked at last lesson with

pastors and deacons the offices of the church outside of that.

What you're gonna find is that most of its non Biblical that's not doesn't mean

unbiblical.

So non -biblical means it's not in the Bible the Bible doesn't speak to it.

Unbiblical means it's contrary to the Bible.

Bible speaks to it and it's opposed to it.

Okay church government I think non -biblical homosexuality unbiblical.

Clear.

Okay.

So let's look at the first one.

It is called the national view of government the national view of government and with each one of these I'm gonna

try to give a diagram.

And Hopefully will the guy diagrams will help but the this is

the church is organized underneath the authority of the state.

Okay.

You're gonna see this and with these I'll give each of them I'll give it so that I'll give it the explanation the diagram

some examples and some pros and cons.

All right.

So in this one you have the diagram is really as you see they're kind of that big Arrow

or the the big box a little bit bigger box is the state represents the state.

Smaller box representing the church and and the authority is kind of passed both ways but it's the

idea that It's a state church.

You see this in like the Anglican Church of England not the Anglican Church here in America.

But the the state church is the Anglican Church.

Maybe not having as much of an influence anymore as it used to but the idea is that There was no

separation between church and state.

Okay, that's one of the things that makes America kind of unique is that we saw this separation of the

government?

For the people and the church and What you saw in the Middle Ages was that the church?

Would have a great influence on the on the politics and the governing and so the Emperors and Popes were

you know?

Either in cahoots or working against each other and it would be a Real problem, and you you

go to like the Puritan era and what you see is that you see Queen Mary you when

you had the Anglicans split off from the Roman Catholics.

Then you have Mary who returns to the Catholics and kills off all those pagans that are you know non

-catholics?

Then you have a you know another king or queen.

They'll come in and say no.

We got to kill all the Catholics.

And it was just based on whatever the king or queen was whether they're Catholic or Protestant meant

that everyone had to die.

Right so we would argue that a problem here.

Is that the church?

Should be the last court of appeals for spirituality.

Not the state and so we don't use the power of the state.

To resolve things within the church spiritual issues the state

in this may is a foreign concept to some of us in America because we don't have a notion of

a state -run church and so with that It becomes a difficulty sometimes for

us to understand.

How is it that the state and church would be one and and so?

We're some of these things maybe this one may be difficult for Americans to understand because we never had a state

church and.

So the church was always the last court of appeals for those within Christianity within spiritual

things.

There's no example of this in the New Testament by the way you don't see Rome.

Being you know this church being part of Rome until you know until Constantine.

An emperor who decided he was Christian everyone he declares as Christian.

That's really where you see the very first time of this church state or this is

national government now.

You see it in Israel which is somewhat where many of those that would base this are going to base it off of because

Israel that God was dealing with a nation so He gave laws to a nation and so that Israel was

supposed to be a theocracy where God was the governor God was the governing force

and therefore yes.

It wasn't that the that Israel was under the state in that case.

It was actually that the state was under Israel and throughout history with this Form of government in the Middle Ages

you saw this battle that went on at different places where you saw governors or

emperors that would be Excommunicated by Popes and now they're excommunicated and because they're

excommunicated They don't have the right to be governor or sorry Emperor and you'd see this battle that would go on and then

emperors would would just declare that Popes are Violated the law and need to be

in prison.

I mean all kinds of political battles.

So you don't see any any examples in New Testament and I'm making the exclusion of Israel because I do see

a separation of Israel in the church, but there's there is permission for

civil disobedience in a case where the government contradicts the Word of God now if the

church is under or part of the government there would be no way for

Disobeying the government.

If we're gonna argue that's that it's biblical now, what are the advantage of this?

I should have started with some of the advantage the advantage is really that well.

You got the protection of the government behind the church, so you don't have to worry about Separation church -state

issues whether about you know, this is a battle in England right now because all these laws that

the The church is to be protected churches is got some rights and people don't want to

hold to those.

So so but I think that in this case, this is probably the least Biblical that I think

the next would be the higher article Government view the higher article government view and with this

one the explanation would be that the ruling it's a ruling body of clergy

organized into ranks.

Okay, so examples of this are going to be Roman Catholic United Methodist.

So this what you have is a diagram is you you'll have a head someone that's that in the Catholic Church.

It's going to be the Pope.

The Pope is the head of the church.

And then you'll have you know cardinals and bishops.

And so you you see that the idea being is that there there's a hierarchy.

There's someone who's on top and people that report.

Several people that report to that one on top and then there's several people that report to the next level and the next

level.

Okay, and the problems I see with this are going to be.

You're gonna have What the advantages and I should start there some advantages are that it does again.

It does offer some protection.

It offers the idea that there is Someone above you to report to

there there's accountability.

There is.

And this is one of the advantages I think of denominations in a sense where there is some accountability to a pastor

who?

You know the congregation can go above his head kind of and so I think there is that advantage.

I think where the disadvantage becomes is that some view like in Roman

Catholicism?

They view it as a succession of The Apostles and so they claim like a a

right that I don't think is there in Scripture.

Some base their view on an incorrect definitions of the word of the word pastor

or the title for pastor the office of Pastor we looked at this last week that.

Some see that there's it talks about a bishop and elder and a pastor or minister and so

some people see three separate Offices and so you have your pastor over a local

flock you have You know your bishop that's over the pastor things like that then they

add some Cardinals and things like that but where I think the difficulty really where the problem is with this is

you start to see that you have those that are leading and making the decisions are

Not tied to a local body of believers, but above them and and far removed from

them.

You also see in this one where I think one of the problems becomes that you see that the congregation.

Isn't it doesn't have say in the In the decision -making at all it's really from

the from the top and it's top -down.

So I think that with that there is a little bit that we do have to recognize that.

There there can be some Politicking that goes on in the hierarchies to get

to higher and higher offices.

Okay, and that's that shouldn't be the case now.

I'm not saying it's always the case.

But there is more that's available or more that that happens with that.

Alright, so let's move to the next one if we can this is the minimal Government view

this is the minimal government view and this is.

The least amount of organization is best this is you ready for this diagram check out this diagram.

I should be explaining diagrams more but here's ready for a diagram put it up.

How's that for a diagram just one box?

That's it.

That one's pretty minimal, right?

It's it's the idea that you'll see this in the in the Quakers the Plymouth Brethren.

It's the idea that there shouldn't be any hierarchy none at all.

There shouldn't be any any anything, you know.

Now in in some of them like the Brethren churches, you will have pastors or they'll call my elders and

They hold that title and those are the men who are gonna preach and they actually take turns a lot of times they take Turns preaching week after week.

They rotate around but it's the idea that that there is no decision -making the.

There's no one person or one group.

It's the whole congregation.

That'll decide there's no real Power in in an

office.

So the the advantage is that here you don't you definitely don't have the politicking.

Right by definition because it's that there's no one there's no hierarchy to politic in so you do get that

advantage.

We then see.

You know some of the problems I see is all the churches have organization.

I mean they say even those churches that say they don't.

There's still someone who's going to put up for vote, you know decide who what's gonna be voted on.

There's always gonna be some organization even if you say no we have none Human nature you're

gonna have some because someone has to call the meeting to order someone.

I mean, there's gonna be a natural leader that's gonna rise and and organize things.

All right.

So I I don't think it's it's fully lived out.

All churches need accountability.

Even in like especially in financing things like that.

I mean you need to have someone who Decides how you're gonna spend the money.

There's going to be someone that has the right to purchase things to do things.

So again, I don't think it's lived out.

The Bible teaches officers and members and so in a lot of these churches, they'll say that they don't have any

officers.

They just identify the different men who are gonna preach every week.

But the Bible does as we looked at last class that talks about the fact that there are and should be

offices.

And the church is responsible for discipling and disciplining and so

It's you need to know who's who's doing what?

I mean, how do you discipline someone out of a church, you know, because they're in sin if there's no organization,

you know.

There's there becomes a difficulty in who gets to who calls that who's gonna take care of that

so I would say that this again, I Though I I applaud the desire that

they have in this form of government.

I just I don't think it practically works out.

So well Let's look at the next one.

This is called the federal government view

now this one is explained as Individuals

of the church.

Surrender authority to a central leadership while still maintaining the right to vote for leadership

so in this model you have a smaller head on top.

And that's representing the leaders and a bigger box at the bottom.

Representing the church and they're the ones that are going to be doing the deciding they're gonna make the decisions.

And so with that what you have in those cases is and this is going to be your Presbyterian

churches.

Your Bible churches your Baptist churches.

And this works out a lot of different ways now I'm gonna say this is this is one of the

two ways that I lean.

So and I'll explain why I think the I think this is the most biblical.

Be not the most really correct one of the most biblical.

I said I lean two ways, right?

I think this is one where you don't have now this you don't have to have a denomination though you could.

But within the church some you have some denominations though that within the local body of believers.

They have a local body and within that local body.

They will meet.

They organize and the church is the one who votes.

Now some of that voting is that they vote on the leaders.

And so what that says is and and this is where there's a lot of freedom in here.

Right on how these things work out some Presbyterian churches that I know.

The church votes on the leaders and the leaders vote on everything else.

So with what they're what you have is that the church is is got the authority to choose the

leaders that are going to be.

Above them and then after that they they submit to that that authority okay,

and Others the congregation is going to have more of a vote.

Some they vote for leaders and the budget some they're gonna vote on.

Everything I mean, you know some some churches have almost every decision by by vote of the congregation

and so the there's gonna be.

But that's actually gonna be more of the second view.

So So, I'm just let me delete those two so we understand there's

gonna be a level of how much the congregation is going to be the ones making all

the decisions and.

That's gonna differentiate whether you're in the federal government view or with the next one that we're gonna call the congregational view.

We'll get to it a minute but in this one what you see is that there can be a problem in that there's

too Few a thought to too much authority in a few people and the reason

that could become promise you can have one pastor.

You'll see this in some of the Baptist or Bible churches that are elder led.

They'll be called.

It's where the pastors make all the decisions in some of those what you have is the congregation votes on the pastor.

Some sometimes they vote sometimes what is the pastors vote for the pastors?

Okay, and so it's the congregation is submitting to the few that are in leadership, but if you have one guy in

leadership.

One guy in is that's the pastor and he's making all the decisions.

I know of a church where that's the case a pastor would come in he basically rewrote the

Constitution in such a way that the the Congregation has no voting whatsoever

anymore.

After they voted for this Constitution.

That was the last vote they got to vote and they voted in the Constitution that gave this one man.

Complete authority for everything in the church all the spending of money.

All the decisions everything and they submit to that now.

Do you see a potential problem with that?

Sure.

The potential problem is is if the guys Ungodly if the guy's not living biblically

it can cause problems.

I've seen where you have guys that get into elder that want to have an elder led church because They don't want someone else making

decisions for them, right?

I mean that could be a problem if they are agenda driven now we spoke in the last class

about the qualifications of a pastor and.

So if that guy is not qualified, he might be prone to this sort of thing, but you

want that's the importance.

That's why so much of the qualifications.

We're focused on the character the character and so.

With that and by the way, if you do want I don't know if we have the slide I didn't put one.

No, we don't.

Okay.

Don't have a slide yet.

I'll try to get one for next class, but we do have those that the On the

website if you go to the store dot striving for attorney org.

If you do want to get those qualifications of Lee of officers.

That's now a reference card that you can purchase from us.

So that's something you can get.

All right.

So the other problem I see with this one is it's Potentially stifles the

priesthood of believers.

In other words, we are all as believers in Christ.

We're all priests in a sense.

We all have a say now there is a point where I think there that

You can have well, let's get to the next one.

I'll explain the problems with the next one.

All right.

The next is the congregational view of government.

The congregational view of government is explained as the church Is pastor led

with members having a vote on many of the details of the church?

So more than just they'd have more than just voting in the pastor and The budget but they have more saying

in how money spent in in decisions.

The church is going to do so.

This diagram is kind of the flip of the last one where you have a big box on top.

That's Going to be the congregation.

And the smaller box is now going to be the pastor.

So the larger number of people are going to have the authority you're going to see us in many of the Baptist churches

now there's a potential problem here is

Where you had a problem that you could have.

When you have a The authority in the previous like the federal government view you can have an authoritarian

pastor.

Okay.

Now some of that pastoral authoritarianism can happen here as well.

If you have a guy who you put in a position that That he's

got you know, if the church isn't voting enough you have the potential of the the

church pastor having too much say.

Now the other potential is you have immature or inactive Christians giving direction to the church via a vote.

I mean you could have Members that aren't very mature.

They don't understand spiritual things and they get a lot of say in the direction of the church

and what's going to happen with the church.

Okay.

So now let me take these last two because these two I said are where I kind of Lean it's the idea that the church is going to be

function Functioning where you have pastors and deacons serving as leaders and in some way you're

going to have the congregation having some say.

Where I see that is more practical one and less a biblical one.

Okay, and the reason I'm saying this I think if you have one man or two men three men that are

pastors and a church.

That's that's.

Well, actually it doesn't matter the size you have very few men that are pastoring it's probably

not wise to have the pastor making all the decisions.

Even if you're saying well the congregation votes the pastors in but then the pastor makes every decision after that.

I think there's still potential problems and those problems are that you end up in a case

where?

You you could have a guy who is an authoritarian.

Okay, and you have that in either one.

But there's more checks and balances when the congregation is making more decisions if you have fewer

pastors.

Does that make sense to you?

Now the flip side though is if you have 13 14 20 pastors and.

You have a church of a thousand two thousand three thousand people.

Well, I mean voting it's gonna be hard.

I mean bringing all those issues up before the people on a regular basis, even if you do a quarterly.

It's a lot.

And then having to vote on them.

Counting up all the votes.

I mean, it's it's a lot right now.

If you have that many men in leadership.

You have some diversity and the problem is when you get when you get a guy who's a pastor who might be a very charismatic Guy

and you a few people other other pastors.

You could have a bunch of yes men guys.

They're just gonna go along with the pastor if you get one page pastor went to went to seminary.

He's got the education and you got guys that are serving as lay pastors.

They're not paid.

They haven't been to seminary they can sometimes feel intimidated and and and if they're in

doubt they just side with the pastor and.

So if you have a pastor who's charismatic or a bunch of yes men.

They're pastors.

You could have the potential of too much authority in too few people.

Okay, so kind of my rule of thumb.

It's not real Hard and fast but I kind of say that if you if you have fewer than a dozen

Pastors, you should probably be congregational rule.

Even if you are if I was in a church where it's elder rule.

And I was a the sole pastor.

I would probably be calling for regular men's meetings.

In fact, I was in a church where we had one pastor and he used to have monthly men's meetings.

We're on any man in the church was welcome to come to the meeting.

And it was a time where he would elicit Input from all the men

on things.

He was thinking and what was happening in the church.

And just trying to get a feel for where the people of the church wanted things to go.

And so he would do that even though it would ultimately be his decision.

They didn't have the vote but what they did was they had the input and He

would then decide now if I was a single pastor of a church that was pastor led

in the federal view I would probably do something like that.

I would call regular men's meetings to be able to discuss issues and get the input from other men and not think

that I have All the answers.

Okay, seminary training doesn't provide you with all the answers.

Actually a good seminary training provides you with questions.

A good seminary Gets a student who comes in thinking he knows everything walking out going.

Duh, I got a lot of questions that I don't have answers to.

That's what I think a good seminary does gives a lot of answers.

But helps you realize you don't know as much as you think, you know.

Alright, so now if you so you're saying that I'm just I think that it's more practical

issue.

I don't think it's hard and fast one way or the other.

I think they each have pros and cons.

I Definitely don't think that we should be under church or sorry under the state.

I don't think there should be a tying of the church and state.

I I don't lean toward that one.

Okay, I don't lean toward all the hierarchy because I just think that there it allows for too much politicking.

That's the reason I'm not part of a denomination though like I said denominations provide

protection, especially as you have more and more lawsuits against churches and people that are

Doing things trying to close down churches you have more protection with a denomination.

That's just the reality and so within denominations.

There is the hierarchy so I understand why some go that route the minimal view I'm not

a big fan of only because I think.

Every church is ultimately gonna have some organization and you're trying to say no.

We're not gonna have anyone you're trying to make it as minimal as possible.

But there's gonna be some so just figure out what that sum is and find Basically really one of the

next two views that you're gonna be in the federal view or the congregational view and one of those and It's so it's who's making the

who's who is the decision makers in the church?

Is it gonna be your pastors or is it gonna be your congregation now?

I've been in some congregational churches where they give up the spiritual decision -making to the pastors

but any of the business type things they choose so what type of curriculum they're gonna buy if

they if they buy curriculum for Sunday school or children's church or VBS the Congregation would

vote on that.

That would be something that they would choose.

But the pastors would decide what books they're gonna preach.

If someone needs to be church disciplined.

If someone needs Spiritual counseling that would be some of the pastors would do so.

There's a lot of there's a lot of flexibility in these different ways.

Especially the last two and there's some that kind of mix -and -match out of the last two.

I actually have it in the Constitution that that I had written for my church.

That there actually was of some flexibility in there that it would be Congregational led

until such time that there were 12 or more Pastors in which case then it could

Buy a vote of the congregation move to pastor led.

That's and I'm fine with that.

I have no issue with that.

So you see there's the the the there's problems in each of them.

There's benefits in each of them and it's it's gonna be the congregation the local congregation has to decide how they want to function.

I don't think there's any that that's one versus the other.

But did I say I don't know if I said but this last one the government the Congregational government you're gonna see in a lot of your

Baptist churches.

You were Pentecostal churches are gonna be more that way.

So let's go on to the last thing because this is the issue the vitals the vital issues that the

vitalities.

That the like what makes the church government essential.

So with this it's what what are these things that we must have?

In any church government.

Okay, whatever view one takes there are some Essentials for

organization to function as a unified body and if you look in your syllabus there

We have it.

This is an acronym as teach.

I got this from my my pastor.

He had explained this to me my first pastor and I so I've used it since it's the teach Concept

okay, just makes it easier to remember by having it as an acronym.

Okay, the acronym is teach.

I should have don't have a slide did I.

I don't think I did that.

Okay, I did not put a slide for this.

So, sorry.

The first is team Concept you have to have a team concept you you

have to have team players.

You can't have a lone wolf.

This is the where I said There's the potential problems in some of these models is when you have a guy that thinks he's above the

church.

I knew one pastor a local pastor to me.

He would always say the phrase to me.

He'd always be like well Andrew.

That's why they're sheep and What he meant by that and when I first time I asked him to explain it what he meant by

it is.

They're dumb and they need a shepherd.

They're too dumb to make decisions on their own.

They need me to decide for them.

That's basically what he meant by that is that they're dumb.

You know when he stopped saying that phrase to me is the day that I said to him, you know something.

You're a sheep, too.

You know, that's the problem some pastors think I'm the shepherd.

I'm not the sheep.

No as a shepherd, you're still a sheep.

That's the difference.

You're still one of the flock.

You're not above the flock pastor.

You're one of the flock and when a guy starts thinking he's above the congregation.

It leads into potential problems as it happened with this pastor where he had a church split because He didn't

like another pastor on the pastoral board that was asking him too many questions.

He didn't like it.

The guy wouldn't just say yes to everything he decides.

What do you do?

He just removed the guy from the board no reason given Congregation didn't like that and he

ended up causing a split why he didn't have a team concept.

He wasn't a team player.

It was his way or the highway and If you're it doesn't matter which type of government you have you

must be a team player.

That's the tea.

He is for effort.

So team concept effort look being in leadership takes effort.

It is not something you're gonna get into leadership or the decision -making process and say we're just gonna we'll just choose really quick.

No thinking involved.

No, you need to put effort into it.

You need to think through this the decisions that are made.

It is vital that you're put a lot of effort in because these are have big Implications

to the especially the newer believers, but all the believers of that congregation.

The a in teach is accountability.

So team concept effort accountability.

Accountability is essential in a church leadership when Who's making the decisions?

The pastors must be accountable to the congregation.

The congregation must be accountable to the pastors.

Pastors must be accountable to one another.

Congregation must be accountable to one.

That must be accountability all around but even more so when it's the decision makers.

One of the things I had I had a church where I was at.

We had called a new pastor and one of the things that changed immediately in the pastoral meetings that we

had was.

Before this guy came in we had always had as the first part of all the pastoral

meetings.

We would sit and basically go around as a team and discuss very openly our

struggles that week or that month.

Or however been since the last meeting we would openly discuss areas of struggle areas of weakness

and and Ask one another for to keep each other accountable.

We regularly have times of accountability and then after that we'd have times where we'd each pray for

one another for strengthening in the areas of their own weakness and So that

that helped that accountability.

Helped in in there wasn't a feeling that we're all vulnerable to one another.

Every one of us knew what each other struggled with and That made a huge change in

the way we treated one another the way we dealt with one another.

But when we had this new pastor, he did not like that at all.

I mean when I When I started the meeting and I started to say let's go around that happened

once.

He did not want to talk at all about any of his weaknesses and the next week he ended that he said we're too

busy.

We don't have time for this and that continued for about six.

About yeah like three to six more months before I finally said look guys if There is because I

felt that we were not we no longer had a view of God's holiness in those pastoral meetings because we lost That

accountability and I said if we don't have a return to the holiness of God in these meetings I'm out of here.

And so I ended up having to leave.

Why.

Because the accountability wasn't there.

Mind you that pastor got voted out by the congregation six years later because

he was an authoritarian.

He had weaknesses that he didn't want to deal with and anyone that brought those weaknesses to him.

He ran them out of the church.

So he didn't have a team concept.

He didn't want to put into effort into working with one another.

He definitely didn't have accountability.

The C is communication team effort or team concept effort

accountability communication t -e -a -c.

Communications very important.

Whoever is the decision makers there?

If you're gonna be making a decision and the congregation is gonna vote if the pastors are Bringing something to the congregation, but they

have to communicate it clearly and completely so those are the three

C's communication clearly and completely.

I Would always refer to those as my three C's when it comes to this because if you're not

communicating clearly and completely In some people they don't want to be cut.

I don't want to be complete there because I want to sway the vote my way.

Well, then you got an issue if that's what you're doing and and that's not good.

You need to convey the full amount of information and you need to do it clearly.

So everyone understands.

Now there needs to be communication with them among the pastors if the pastors are making decisions and it's a pastor

-led church.

They need to communicate to the congregation the decisions they're making.

There needs to be clear communication Between the the decision makers and those

who are going to be Living with those decisions basically and then they're even within the decision makers.

There needs to be clear and concise and accurate communication amongst them.

That's essential because if you don't have clear communication.

Any of these forms of church government are gonna break down.

Okay, they're gonna have problems.

You're gonna have people trying to hide things from one another.

Things like that now last one.

This is a toughie.

We have our acronym is teach team concept effort accountability

communication.

Humility is H humility.

You have to have people who are humble and this is where this is where I can see some of the problems in the

congregational Led church you have young immature believers that don't actually don't always act humbly.

You the reason you have pastors is by the point if you're Biblically if you're pointing them

biblically, then they're being appointed based on the fact that you know.

They're already shown that they're humble.

You already see that in their character.

So you're gonna put them in because they have that and so they're already have that.

Been proven out in their life.

And so you need that amongst the pastor.

You need to have guys that are willing to submit to one another.

Willing to be humble and not prideful not trying to get their own way not agenda driven as

we mentioned last week on the characteristics the qualities qualifications of a pastor.

So you should have humility.

You know I know some pastors who have pastor led churches and they don't want to go and tell the Congregation decisions that they're

making.

I think that's a problem.

They don't want to communicate it clearly.

They don't want they almost want to hide things.

Sometimes I've seen where some churches they they make decisions and they they want to craft

the wording of it.

So that I knew one church that basically violated the law violated their own Constitution

because the pastors basically made a decision or really Made it so that

the Deacons made the decision.

They had a major purchase that they had to do and the Constitution says you can't make major purchases.

And they had a major purchase of a new air -conditioning unit in the midst of the summer months

the air -conditioning went out and so they decided they would the Pastors and Deacons met and

decided the Deacons just sent out a letter saying we did this.

It wasn't even like we want to do it.

They just went off and did it and sent a letter saying we understand that the congregation is supposed to vote on this.

But we didn't want any of you suffering without air -conditioning for even a week.

So we paid extra to have it put in right away.

Now the issue there is.

They felt that even though the congregation had the right to vote they didn't submit themselves to the

congregation.

They decided that they were above the congregation.

It's really what it is is it revealed that there you had a pastor that didn't agree with the church's form of government.

And he really wanted it to be in an elder led church.

But the congregation wouldn't vote that in he made several attempts to get it voted in and they didn't work out and

so what they did is they acted like they were pastor led and.

Then they'd give it nice wording to explain it.

Well, that's not a man who's willing to submit then to the congregation.

He may maybe he's afraid of how they would vote.

The reality is is you have to you know, there has to be humility now there could be an abuse of it.

I've seen where I saw one church where there was a deacon led church a Baptist Church or is really a

Bible Church.

But baptistic in the sense where you had a pastor and maybe you'd have paid Associate pastors and then you had deacons

deacons acted really acted like pastors and so the thing that happened

is that you end up seeing is that what they did is.

They would if they didn't like what the pastor was preaching is what ended up happening.

They actually just decided the deacons they just cut the pastor's pay overnight four

guys got together just voted but and.

The pastor came in Sunday morning and they approached him and said oh by the way.

There's like literally from like 15 minutes before he got up to preach.

I said, oh by the way, we just want to let you know that we we voted we cut your salary in half.

Because we don't like the way you've been preaching.

You know that there's not a humility there, right.

I mean you see that the breakdown in that team concept.

Not there the the effort the accountability communication.

Humility these all of these are necessary.

I know of a church where a Church I that I had a friend of mine was pastoring and the church

actually voted.

Without him ever knowing there was a meeting they voted to see because he was preaching something that a bunch of people didn't like.

So they called a meeting without him his knowledge and voted on whether they were gonna kick the pastor out.

And it was interesting because the pastor ended up resigning.

He was.

We were he's counseling together on this subject and basically what happens.

He's like, you know, they came thinking they're approving me the church voted like 85 to keep

you.

You know there it was really 75 at first, but there were a couple people that were swayed it to be 85.

He's like, what do you mean?

We had a vote last night.

He didn't even know there was a vote.

He was like you can have a vote without even communicating it to me without talking to me without

expressing the issues.

And if they would have voted him out, they would have voted him out without him ever having an ability to voice an appeal.

He just would have been out.

He felt that that was so that that broke down this these vitals of church government.

There was lack of a team concept between the congregation and the pastor.

They put no effort into trying to work with the issues.

Basically, the issue is that some of the women thought that women should have a right to be pastors.

And he was preaching out of first Timothy and preaching that they don't and they they didn't like it now.

There's no reason they should have not liked it.

This church was a church plant that was founded because it was a split from another it was actually a this pastor

left a church that decided that.

Unless he allowed women to be pastors.

They were gonna kick him out and they kicked him out so they knew his position ahead of time.

But they started this church.

I asked him if he would help pastor a church they were starting and they knew his position and then they vote on whether they're Gonna have him in

or not.

It's like crazy.

And so he ended up realizing that there was no there wasn't good accountability and communication.

And so he had to step down, you know.

And so I don't care which form of church government you have you must have these five elements a team

concept effort put in accountability.

Clear and complete communication and then humility.

You must have those in any form.

All right, and so if you have questions about this or anything else next lesson.

We're gonna talk about the ordinances of the church.

I think there's two Baptism Lord's Supper.

We're gonna talk about what they mean.

We're gonna talk about why only those two.

Are there others that some have that they think are in ordinance?

Why and why not all those sort of things?

That's what we're gonna talk about in the next class.

If you have a question about this or any other class.

Feel free to email us at Academy at striving for eternity org.

Academy at striving for eternity.

Also, you can go again to I mentioned you can go to the store.

You can pick up our syllabus.

The book for is $25.

You can actually pick up.

I think I don't know if it's on the website yet.

It will be we're gonna start bundling things together so you can get all four of the systematic theology books for $75 or

you can get all six of the current syllabuses for a hundred.

So we're gonna start doing things like that.

They'll be up there soon.

But if you want to get the syllabus go to the store and pick it up there while you're at the store.

You can pick up my book.

What do they believe a Systematic theology of the major Western religions.

You can also sign up your church.

Hopefully to host a Bible interpretation made easy seminar.

These seminars come we come into your church for a weekend and we will in one weekend eight hours

six sessions.

We will teach you how to interpret God's Word rightly.

Some exciting things going on that we have let's put this one up.

We have the reason rally outreach go to reason rally outreach org.

We're gonna be having on Friday night.

We're gonna be having a Conference we're gonna have Ray comfort from living waters.

Matt slick from calm and striving for eternity.

We'll all be involved and we will be training people up to reach the atheists.

This is being heralded as the largest gathering of non -religious people in history.

And what we're saying is help us share the gospel of Jesus Christ with them.

Saturday we're gonna have an outreach not only us but also living waters

on June 4th.

The living waters is gonna have the DC outreach and we're working with them.

It's not two separate outreaches.

We're all gonna be outreaching at the same time.

It's just that if you're part of the Friday night group you come to the Friday night conference.

You get to hear Ray speak Bible thumping.

Wingnut is actually gonna interview Ray comfort on his new book and new movie.

We are gonna play his brand new movie that has not been seen outside of

very many people.

Very few people have gotten to see the movie.

It's gonna be coming out soon.

He's gonna play the first.

Like 10 minutes of this movie, it's very good.

I've seen the movie.

It's it's it's gonna be I think really exciting.

It's called the atheist dilemma and that he's gonna play for us Friday night.

Matt slick is gonna give count points on how to how to witness to atheists.

What it would it deal with that?

I'm gonna deal with the issue.

What's the gospel the doctrine of imputation and how we're that's gonna be essential to what we're gonna do on June 4th.

Now if you're there Friday night, that means you're gonna get out on the streets at 9 o 'clock.

Why because living waters has a meeting and they're gonna have a meeting Saturday morning at 9.

What we're gonna do is have that same meeting Friday night at our event.

That's hosted by striving for eternity that way we can get out early and get to those good preaching spots.

It was good evangelism spots get there early and then living waters is gonna have their meeting and the DC

outreach.

They're gonna come follow up and meet us.

So they're gonna have more people that are gonna come later.

Which is gonna be kind of neat all of a sudden as the atheists are coming in.

So will the Christians okay, and Ray's gonna be filming on the during the DC outreach.

He's gonna be filming for his new TV show.

He's gonna do more filming for the atheist dilemma I think but he's he's also gonna be filming for way the master

season 5.

Also, lastly is Jersey fire is coming up.

So I want to encourage you Matt slick and myself Justin Peters, the topic is the Word of God.

These are gonna be some great great great messages.

I encourage you to go to Jersey fire org sign up for Jersey fire.

Encourage your friends encourage your pastors.

Encourage your church to come out To Jersey fire that's in Tom's River, New Jersey,

July 8th and 9th 2016 come on out is gonna be some great.

This is We're using fire in the biblical sense, by the way.

We are trying to fire Christians up to warn the lost of the fire to come.

There is a judgment fire coming and that's why we need to warn them.

Let's get out there and warn them of a fire to come.

Until next week.

We want to remind you to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of God.