Responding to Brian Brodersen and Chuck Smith

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning. Good to be back here in Phoenix, Arizona. Had a wonderful time at Rockdale Community Church this past weekend. I got to meet all sorts of wonderful people there.

The folks in the south just tend to be nice folks. And it was good to have a chance to visit with the folks there hear about how the Lord has used Our meager efforts in the past to help that particular church, and that's always a tremendous Encouragement to me, so I'm pretty well Excited as I get back because a lot of other things as well.

This morning I blogged about the fact that on I believe it's May 7th. I will be debating Robert Price On the historic reliability of the Gospels in Innisbrook, Florida which is in the Tampa area as I recall and That debate will be at the CRI National Conference.

I will also be speaking once or twice at the conference. I think twice at least once on the Transmission of the text of the New Testament that is a presentation I did this weekend in fact added some new stuff to it so this weekend at Rockdale Community Church, and showed it to them for the first time.

It keeps getting bigger, and I keep needing more time for it. So I probably need to Start coming up with different versions of it. But be that as it may I will be doing those presentations, but Hank Hanegraaff will be moderating the debate between myself and Robert Price.

Dr. Price has done many debates before. I was just looking for a graphic to post on the website this morning and ran across a debate between himself and William Lane Craig on what else but the resurrection and so that has been added to the Riding listening Queue that I will be working on in the brief relatively brief amount of time between now and May.

When we will have that encounter so those of you in that area Planning on attending the CRI National Conference there could be a number of other people speaking there. I gave a link on the blog to the battle for the Bible calm I believe is the URL the battle for the Bible calm and you can see who will be speaking there.

I think there It's only a partial list right now there are some other names that have been mentioned to me that I hope will Be able to make it. It'll make it a great time there at the beginning of May.

I'm already speaking that week in Colorado, so I will be going straight from Denver to Florida for that so it's going to be a very very busy period of time for me to be certain as We prepare for that debate so I've blogged about that.

You can look at that. You can see that a omen org the information is available to you there. Please continue to pray. I have not yet received my visa for London. We did get some communication from the consulate over the weekend and Which means at least they're looking at it, and we provided more information.

If we need to provide any more information, they're going to be needing to have DNA and my firstborn child. That's going to be the next level that they're going to require. Seriously, not only did it take me longer to fill out the visa application Than I could ever imagine I had to put more information out than I put on my my personal tax returns.

For the United States government it is truly amazing. The level to which you have to go just to go visit one of our allies. I can't imagine what it's like to go someplace else so Please pray that the Lord will cause the bureaucracy to move faster.

I am supposed to be flying out a week from Thursday and the tickets have been purchased and Reservations made and all the rest that stuff, and you know what happens if you have to change your plans it's going to get rather expensive and so pray that the Lord will open those doors and that's Very soon.

I can put that aside and focus more upon What we'll be doing specifically hopefully being on the unbelievable radio program with Sir Anthony buzzard who was on with Michael Brown? I believe just yesterday On his program, and they were having numerous technical issues.

We're having a couple technical issues here today because I am very pleased that sitting in front of me is my old MacBook Pro the one that I've been carrying since August of 2008 it is now the one I will be using here in the studio and I have the current edition of the MacBook Pro in on my desk.

It is now the one that will be going with me as I do my debates and doing all my presentations from that it is very nice to have The same system in both places. It takes care of a lot of problems, but the first time you do it there are little things you forget like we had put the password for the phone system into the old computer and there's no way to get it because it's just a bunch of bunch of asterisks there and We have no idea.

Yes.

So we're gonna have to afterwards I guess. Hook up to the main unit and wipe out all the passwords and this time Why don't we use one that makes sense to us that we would actually remember? You thought you did yeah well.

How long have you been sitting in there hacking at that trying to trying thinking racking your brain of every password you can think of. Now now he's now he's looking determined. I Will not have to do this.

I will figure out this password eventually someday. Till then we find other ways of doing it I guess but anyway. Anyway. That's I hear there, and I'm having to get used to using a different sound program.

So I may have a few blips and bleeps here that I shouldn't have but we'll we'll get through all this and the Benefits definitely outweigh the disadvantages. But as it may I announced this morning on the blog that I want to start off today.

I want to get back to the buzzard Sanders debate because eventually. Either Thursday or in sometime next week. I've got to get to this before we get to the Encounter in London, and I have a feeling given that Sir Anthony buzzard commented on my Encounter with Michael Brown that that he may be listening, and I hope I hope yes.

Because it would be so much better than the vast majority debates I do where they don't listen at all to what I have to say and I have to keep explaining things and and I know That he has the Forgotten Trinity.

He's written about me in his newsletter before so Hopefully this will be very good, but I want to get to Sir Anthony buzzards primary argument in defense of Sassanian Christology a very interesting theological system that he promotes.

I was listening to his encounter with Michael Brown today, and he insists he believes in penal substitutionary atonement. Which of course is a reformed concept? While denying the deity of Christ. It's a very very odd conglomeration of numerous different Perspectives, I think it's the Church of God of the Abrahamic faith I believe is is the name or something like that Atlanta Bible College is very very very interesting.

But be that as it may I want to get to his use of Psalm 110 1. Because it occurs I think in every single discussion. I've heard so far. I download all his his sound files. Where he discusses Hebrews 1 and John 1 and and various sundry things and as far as I've been able to tell so far.

Every single discussion he has in a subject eventually gets around to Psalm 110 1 and his understanding of that text. But was very interesting as I listened just a couple days ago.

To.

His presentation on Hebrews 1 which I I knew was gonna be very very interesting given The the numerous references to the deity of Christ pre-existence of Christ creatorship of Christ That's found in Hebrews 1.

That's the whole point of the chapter. Especially verses 10 through 12 which identified Jesus as Yahweh well the way he got around that Is not only the first time I've ever heard that way as far as the application he made but it is a almost humorous example of How Sassanianism is is not only rationalistic, but completely inconsistent.

Because the methodology he uses to get around Hebrews 1 is the exact opposite methodology he insists upon for Psalm 110 1. So we'll take a look at that. I'm hoping to be able to write something up and put in the blog So that we can take a look at it because I think it would be really good to go in-depth on this.

People like and we do that to go into the text look at the original languages and things like that. But before that I announced on the blog this morning That I want to respond to the fact that on Friday morning.

I got up in Atlanta. I flew there on Thursday, and I got up in Atlanta and checked my email and Lo and behold here was a a link forwarded to me from one of our listeners Informing me that I had been mentioned by name on the Thursday edition of the pastor's perspective on k-wave which is the Calvary Chapel flagship station and That I might find it interesting to listen in and so I did took me forever to download the file for some reason and once I got it I Started listening I had to skip toward the end.

I put the link actually I should have put on the blog. But I tweeted it this morning. So that's that's out there somewhere, and hey, I just realized I have tweet deck on this thing now. Hey, I tried to install tweet deck on the other one.

But it just crashed everything right left in the center, so I couldn't do that, but now You'll be able to tweet me as well. That's that's great there. It is there's tweet deck. Oh, and it makes noise, too I Will have to turn that off.

Yes, I will have to go the preferences and turn that off, but anyway Play notification sound no longer, okay. Let's just listen to the program this was the standard group that is there on on the pastor's perspective including Chuck Smith and Let's listen to the caller.

I sort of pick up in the middle of the callers call because first part wasn't overly relevant, but Here's the call on election. Let's listen to the entirety of the call and comments. And then I want to go back over and respond to it bit by bit.

Calvinism or whatever you want to call it was that it wasn't just for God to judge us before we had the chance of sin.

But.

Calvin presented it as more of it was a plan of the ultimate glorification of God and That. And then he asked the question is there any justice, but or is it sorry. Is there any justice of God? But that is but except for that which is perceived by man and.

So I just kind of want to get your perspective on that whole.

We would love to give it to you Kyle Chuck.

That's a difficult issue because it they do seem to be mutually exclusive. Yeah, no, there's. How can you explain? Yeah, the fact that I'm a free moral agent now and yet the election of God, you know and and that's one of those difficult things and and I think that it's something that We won't really fully understand.

Well, we wouldn't till we get to heaven Brian. Do you love to answer that question too? Yeah.

Well, you know, here's what it seems to me that the Calvinist have done among other things. It seems to me that they have redefined certain words.

Yes.

And so they've taken the word sovereignty and they've given it sort of their own definition. Their definition meaning that nothing can possibly happen. That isn't caused by God. Yeah, and if God doesn't cause everything to happen then somehow he's not sovereign.

That's a wrong definition of sovereignty. I think a better definition is If you're sovereign you do what you want to do. And in God's sovereignty he chose to give men a free will. So I think the.

Whole.

Debate between free will and sovereignty is a Misguided debate in the first place because it's based on a wrong definition of sovereignty.

Yeah Kyle John Calvin taught a double Predestination meaning not only were some people Predestined to eternal life through Christ others were predestined before they were even born to eternal damnation.

Now there are many problems we would have with that not the least of which the scriptures assumes. We all have choice when we hear choose which day you're going to serve over and over again. It'll be God serve him if Yahweh be God serve him.

Jesus in Matthew 23 said Jerusalem Jerusalem. How often I wanted to gather you as a mother hen gathers her chicks, but you weren't willing. Now that assumes choice but according to the double Predestination view there was the choice was already made for before they were born and then what makes it worse when they get judged.

They're gonna be condemned for something by definition. They had no possibility to do and that is believe in Christ because their fate had been sealed before birth. And then to make matters worse. We're told to act like God and if God acts this way That seems rather unfair to you know set the rules.

Make it impossible for someone to come to him and then judge them for something by definition. They couldn't do because he made it impossible for them to do. That just doesn't seem to gel with the God that we know the God of the Bible who?

Sincere desire according to 2nd Peter 3 9 is that none should perish but all should come to repentance. And so we have some really really difficult. You know problems with that a particular perspective and so Kyle with all due respect to John Calvin He was a great interpreter in many other areas with the idea of double Predestination that we think he's really really off the beam.

Any other thoughts on that Chuck or Brian.

Yeah, too many to turn. I know that's just yeah.

But it it's it's it gives kind of God such a bad name doesn't it when you take it to its logical well.

That's it taking it out to the logical end. Yeah, it just. You know you can't understand or put the two things. No. Yeah, it really presents a.

Harsh yeah harsh view of God and and really in them in many ways off a heartless. Yeah exactly. Yeah, you guys you remember some months ago. We were talking about the same subject and we mentioned that you know in some ways I mentioned it.

I think in some ways Calvinism is a sort of Christianity without Jesus now that went all over the internet and James White got a hold of he did a big thing on it. And I you know I heard but but and you know all of this speculation about what I meant by that one guy said oh.

This guy Brian Broterson. He evidently just reads the red letters. He thinks the red letters are only inspired he doesn't recognize Paul's inspiration and so forth. No. Let me clarify what I meant by that what I meant by that.

Is that the heart of Jesus is not? Existent in Calvinism the heart of Jesus is one of compassion one of mercy one of love and and it just it doesn't come across. I've read You know systematic theologies by Calvinist.

I've listened to Calvinist preachers. I've read dozens of commentaries by Calvinist. You know and you just the heart of Jesus just is missing so often you know. Because the Lord's heart was obviously like you quoted there from Matthew how often I wanted to gather you together.

The Lord's heart is to save everybody not condemn. Most and just sovereignly for his glory elect a few. Yeah.

And with all due respect again to our Calvinist brother many of whom put us in the category of not to say but the loss. Because we're leading people astray. You know we know they know the Lord. We just think they've got a just a really wrong view of the nature of God there.

And like again what Brian said the heart of Jesus that Came to die for the sins of the world. And it just seems so heartless if you take it out to his extreme. And it's logical. End that here he would fix the game in such a way where he would tell people to do something by definition.

They couldn't do because he's the one keeping them from doing it. That just doesn't seem right. All right enough for that. We can go on and on. Let's go to.

So there's there's the discussion at right toward the end of the program. I tweeted the URL you can get off of kwave. I think it's the last of the pastors perspectives that have been posted so far so for February 4th now.

There's there's obviously you know the fact that. The response we gave and put on YouTube which has been seen multiple thousands of times on YouTube. Obviously people are talking about it, and it's getting these folks, and I'm glad.

But I don't see any evidence that they're actually seriously thinking about what people say in response to them. Which is a reason for great concern from my perspective. That you should at least be able to hear what other people are saying to you and then Improve your criticisms if your position is accurate and true.

If your position is not accurate and true, then you know you're just gonna keep repeating the same things. But I would like to respond this. I'd like to especially address Brian Broderson and his comments.

Toward the end there. Concerning Calvinism not having the heart of Jesus, but there is so many errors before that. That I want to go back to the beginning and this time. We'll we'll stop and start and we'll respond.

And try to provide some correction and of course let me say this right up front. I would invite any of these gentlemen to contact us. We would gladly have them on the program. I would love to have Brian Broderson on to explain how Calvinism does not contain the heart of Jesus.

Let's look at the Bible together. Let's look at the scriptures like Michael Brown, and I did. Or any of the other gentlemen on the panel including Chuck Smith be happy to have them on the program. Be happy to have them join us.

And I would be happy to be on their program as well. To respond to these things to talk about John 6 and in these texts I think it would be very useful to people and I am fully confident not of my skills as a debater.

I am fully confident of the clarity of the Word of God. I am fully confident with then when God's people hear God's truth. They'll recognize it and So that's an invitation is very much open to those gentlemen.

So let's let's start back at at the beginning and Let's let's provide some some response.

But.

Calvin presented it as more of it was a plan of the ultimate glorification of God and That. And then he asked the question Is there any justice but or is it sorry. Is there any justice of God? But that is but except for that which is perceived by man and.

So I just kind of want to get your perspective on that whole.

We would love to give it to you Kyle Chuck.

Go ahead Don if you'd love to get to. That's such a difficult issue because it they do seem to be mutually exclusive. Yeah, in other words, how can you explain the fact that I'm a free moral agent now and yet the election of God you know and and that's one of those difficult things and and I think that.

How difficult is it? I mean if we go to the scriptures and I I would like you to contrast this brief Discussion that I'm gonna give right now with what you're gonna hear in Just a moment from one of these speakers and just contrast it in Isaiah chapter 10.

We read the following words. Ah Assyria the rod of my anger the staff in their hands is my fury Against a godless nation. I sent him against the people of my wrath. I command him to take spoil and seize plunder and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

But he that is Assyria does not so intend and his heart does not so think. But it is in his heart to destroy and to cut off nations. Not a few for he says are not my commanders all kings. Is not Calno like Carchemish.

Is not Hamas like our pod. It's not Samaria like Damascus. These were places that they had destroyed already. As my hand has reached the kingdoms the idols whose carved images were greater than those of Jerusalem and Samaria.

Shall I not due to Jerusalem and her idols as I have done to Samaria and her idols. When the Lord has finished all his work on Mount Zion on Jerusalem He will punish the speech of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the boastful look in his eyes.

For he says By the strength of my hand I have done it and by my wisdom for I have understanding. I removed the boundaries of peoples and plundered the treasures like a bull. I bring down those who sit on the thrones.

My hand has found like a nest the wealth the people's and as one gathers eggs that have been forsaken. So I have gathered all the earth and there is none that moved a wing or open the mouth or chirped.

Then God asks a question Isaiah 10 15 shall the axe boast over him who hues with it or the saw magnify itself against him who wields it as If a rod should wield him who lifts it and or as if a staff should lift him who is not wood.

Therefore the Lord of Gods God of hosts will send wasting sickness among his stout warriors and Under his glory a burning will be kindled like the burning of fire. The light of Israel will become a fire and as holy one Aflame that will burn and devour his thorns and briars in one day.

Here you have so very clearly The presentation of God's sovereignty and man's sin. You have man's sin first seen the people of Israel. The people of Israel have broken the Covenant and as God had promised in Deuteronomy 28 and 29 curses and blessings.

These are the curses and he brings a people against Israel to punish them against a godless nation. I sent him against the people of my wrath. I command him verse 6. So God says I'm bringing a Syria against Israel.

I'm bringing a Syria against Israel to punish Israel's sin. To take spoil seize plunder tread them down like mire in the streets. I am responsible for bringing a Syria against Israel. But verse 7 he does not so intend.

And my friends if you believe in the autonomous will of man. Then you need to answer the question. How can this be? It is not the intention the king of Assyria. To be the instrument in God's hands of judging a piece of people of Israel.

The Assyrians are pagans. The Assyrians do not worship the one true God. They are bloodthirsty evil murderous people. God has had to restrain their hand. So much for autonomous free will on any level.

If God restrains evil, there's no autonomous free will of man if he uses men as his means of Punishment there is no autonomous free will either because they are doing something. But it's not their intention to do that and please note the issue of intentionality.

It is based on the intention of their hearts that they are judged. They're not judged for coming against the people of Israel. God intended that and that was his holy and perfect will. They are judged for the attitude of their hearts.

That is the important thing to remember at that point and That's what's missing and all of the criticisms offered by well everyone that I've ever seen in Calvary Chapel. They refuse to allow the biblical categories to stand and the biblical categories is God judges us based upon the intentions of our hearts.

That's why Genesis 50 does teach.

The.

Position known as compatibilism that God's sovereign decree and The judgment of man's sin they're compatible with one another and so you see in this text That these men are not being they're not innocent moral agents being forced to do something bad.

They're doing what their hearts want to do. God has to restrain them from doing more. He doesn't allow them to wipe out all of Israel. He leaves a remnant for himself. Does he not and So God's restraining their evil, but he uses their evil for his purpose.

They are judged on The basis of the attitude of their heart. Specific text says the attitude the heart of the king of Assyria. Arrogance or refusal to acknowledge that everything they have comes from God's hand.

It is sinful in God's sight to not acknowledge that everything you possess Comes from God. Everything you possess comes from God and it's sinful to not be thankful to him. That's what Romans 1 tells us.

So keep that in mind there you have a Clear biblical example, and if if you disagree with what I just said Can you demonstrate that the text does not say what I just said? Is that not a consistent reading of?

Isaiah chapter 10 verses 5 through 17.

It is.

So with that in mind we return back to the statements that are going to be made by the folks Calvary Chapel. Do they show an understanding of these types of fundamental truths about God's nature. Revealed in the text of Scripture these men direct people to Scripture.

They say go to the Bible and. That is why that is why my friends Calvary Chapel keeps producing Calvinists because they keep telling people to go to the Bible and Until they start Getting deeper into the text.

Well, it's gonna cause them a real problem to keep telling people to go to the Bible. It's.

It's something that We won't really fully understand. Well, we wouldn't till we get to heaven Brian. Do you love to answer that question, too?

Yeah, you go first. Yeah.

Well, you know, here's what it seems to me that the Calvinist have done among other things. It seems to me that they have redefined certain words. Yes, and so they've taken the word sovereignty and they've given it sort of their own definition their definition meaning that Nothing can possibly happen That isn't caused by God.

Yeah, and if God doesn't cause everything to happen then somehow he's not sovereign. That's a wrong definition of sovereignty. I think a better definition is If you're sovereign you do what you want to do and then God's sovereignty he chose to give men a free will.

So I think the whole okay. Now, let's let's stop right there. Why is that a definition of sovereignty? That's not a definition of sovereignty at all. That that is the well, I Don't want to be unkind. That's the weasel way out.

That's not a definition of sovereignty to say sovereignty means that God and his sovereign will gives man free will. Means that God and his sovereignty abdicates his sovereignty to man. Is that what you're really saying?

What do you mean by free will they throw this word around? It's not a biblical word. So you have to find some way of defining it and don't go to free will offerings in the Old Testament. That's not what it's about.

Tell us how it is that the Bible can continually talk about the limitations on man's abilities the limitations on man's will. The slavery of man to sin and yet you believe that man is autonomous. Explain this to us.

If you wanna explain it to us, you better start explaining it to your people. You have to explain it to somebody.

So.

How is it an explanation of God's sovereignty that? He abdicates his sovereignty and gives to men autonomous free will if you at the same time continue to confess That God when he created knew what the result was going to be.

This is the point that I really need to try to before we schedule.

The.

Conversation with dr. Brown here on the program. Find out where he's coming from on this because on one hand these folks want to say God accomplishes all his soul his holy will. Okay, how much of it? Well all of it.

How extensive is it? Well, we don't know. Because on the one hand they want to say well, no, he he didn't decree.

What.

Joseph's brothers did. But the other hand they want to say he did decree to save many people alive. So he decreed the ends but not the means to get there. How does that work? As long as you're a theist and not an open theist You're stuck with the same question and the question is when God created He knew infallibly exactly what was going to take place in time.

He either did so based upon a divine decree that gives purpose and meaning to everything or He tossed the cosmic dice and came out on top. Some people I've even heard theorize That God tossed the cosmic dice a number of times lost at first then just wipe that out.

Decided not to go there and then finally tossed it out there. I win. Wow, I mean that starts that starts to sound like Molanism and science fiction again. You know ran the numbers and all. Because of what.

Because of the fiction. And it's a fiction of human autonomy. Where is that in Scripture. It's nowhere. It's not there. Jesus said you had to be freed. You want free will. What does John 8 say. If you abide in my word, then you are truly my disciples and you will know the truth and the truth.

Will. What? Set you free. There's freedom. But what that means is everyone doesn't have it outside of regeneration and freedom in Christ.

So.

All this philosophy Doesn't accomplish anything In in this context whatsoever.

Debate between free will and sovereignty is a misguided debate in the first place because it's based on a wrong definition of sovereignty.

See what has happened here. You've just taken the sovereign decree of God and redefined on the basis the autonomous will of man. And it's no wonder you end up with so much the Bible being upset upside down when you redefine things in that way.

Kyle John Calvin taught a double Predestination meaning not only were some people Predestined to eternal life through Christ others were predestined before they were even born to eternal damnation.

Now notice that's just he's just taking that straight from George Bryson but notice the error of Equal ultimacy and I have had to address this many many times before. It is a misrepresentation of the Calvary Chapel folks.

They get it from George Bryson. We've corrected George Bryson on it. But again when your arguments aren't all that good you have to stick with the ones that you actually find working with the majority of people.

It is not the same it is not the identical same thing to predestine a People into salvation Jesus Christ as it is to in the decree of God. Decree that those who sin will receive justice and they're just desserts.

That's not the same thing. One is a mere act of judgment. The other is an extension of powerful grace. Against the demands of judgment that have to be fulfilled in another way specifically through the self-giving of Jesus Christ.

They are not just simply the two sides the same coin. You can simply you can simplify things that way if you want to. But the result of that is is a twisted view of things and a lot of people do that sadly.

But they are not the same things and Calvin does recognize the difference. Yes, he does believe in double predestination in the sense that there is a decree of reprobation. But that he clearly recognizes.

That's not the same thing as the decree of salvation itself. Please keep that in mind. You're not going to hear that correctly from the Calvary Chapel folks. I've never seen anyone who actually does accurately represent that but I think it all comes from the same.

Bad source. At that point. Now, there are many problems We would have with that. Not the least of which the scriptures assumes We all have choice when we hear choose which day you're going to serve over and notice.

More straw men. Where did anyone say we don't have choice? The point is autonomous choice. We choose all the time, but based on our corrupt nature we choose against God. That's why Romans a can say those who are according to the flesh Cannot submit themselves to the law of God.

Why not? Why not Calvary Chapel folks? What can you answer that question? Why does Romans 8 say what it says? Why does Jesus say in John 6 44? No man is able to come to me. Yes. We make choices, but our choices are always those that are bound up in sin.