Responding to Brian Brodersen and Chuck Smith

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one And now with today's topic here is

James white And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning. Good to be back here in Phoenix, Arizona Had a wonderful time at Rockdale Community Church this past weekend

I got to meet all sorts of wonderful people there the folks in the south just tend to be nice folks and It was good to have a chance to visit with the folks there hear about how the

Lord has used Our meager efforts in the past to help that particular church, and that's always a tremendous

Encouragement to me, so I'm pretty well Excited as I get back because a lot of other things as well

This morning I blogged about the fact that on I believe it's May 7th. I will be debating

Robert Price On the historic reliability of the Gospels in Innisbruck, Florida which is in the

Tampa area as I recall and That debate will be at the

CRI National Conference. I will also be speaking once or twice at the conference. I think twice at least once on the

Transmission of the text of the New Testament that is a presentation I did this weekend in fact added some new stuff to it so this weekend at Rockdale Community Church and showed it to them for the first time it keeps getting bigger, and I keep needing more time for it so I probably need to Start coming up with different versions of it

But be that as it may I will be doing those presentations, but Hank Hanegraaff will be moderating the debate between myself and Robert Price Dr.

Price has done many debates before I was just looking for a graphic to post on the website this morning and ran across a debate between himself and William Lane Craig on what else but the resurrection and so that has been added to the

Riding listening Queue that I will be working on in the brief relatively brief amount of time between now and May When we will have that encounter so those of you in that area

Planning on attending the CRI National Conference there could be a number of other people speaking there

I gave a link on the blog to the battle for the Bible calm

I believe is the URL the battle for the Bible calm and you can see who will be speaking there.

I think there It's only a partial list right now There are some other names that have been mentioned to me that I hope will

Be able to make it. It'll make a day a great time there at the beginning of May I'm already speaking that week in Colorado.

So I will be going straight from Denver to Florida for that so it's going to be a very very busy period of time for me to be certain as we prepare for that debate, so I Blogged about that.

You can look at that. You can see that ailman org. The information is available to you there

Please continue to pray. I have not yet received my visa for London. We did get some communication from the consulate over the weekend and Which means at least they're looking at it and we provided more information

If we need to provide any more information, they're going to be needing to have DNA and my firstborn child

That's going to be the next level that they're going to require Seriously, not only did it take me longer to fill out the visa application

Than I could ever imagine. I had to put more information out than I put on my my personal tax returns

For the United States government. It is truly amazing The level to which you have to go just to go visit one of our allies

I can't imagine what it's like to go someplace else. So Please pray that the

Lord will cause the bureaucracy to move faster. I am supposed to be flying out a week from Thursday and the tickets have been purchased and Reservations made and all the rest that stuff and you know, what happens if you have to change your plans?

it's gonna get rather expensive and so pray that the Lord will open those doors and that's

Very soon I can put that aside and focus more upon what we'll be doing specifically

Hopefully being on the unbelievable radio program with sir. Anthony buzzard who was on with Michael Brown.

I believe just yesterday On his program and they were having numerous technical issues.

We're having a couple technical issues here today because I am very pleased that sitting in front of me is my old

MacBook Pro the one that I've been carrying since August of 2008. It is now the one

I will be using here in the studio and I have the current edition of the MacBook Pro in on my desk

It is now the one that will be going with me as I do my debates and doing all my presentations from that it is very nice to have

The same system in both places. It takes care of a lot of problems, but the first time you do it there are little things you forget like we had put the password for the phone system into the old computer and there's no way to get it because it's just a bunch to a bunch of asterisks there and We have no idea

So we're gonna have to afterwards I guess hook up to the main unit and wipe out all the passwords and this time

Why don't we use one that makes sense to us that we would actually remember? You thought you did.

Yeah, well How long have you been sitting in there hacking at that trying to trying thinking racking your brain of every password you can think of Now now he's now he's looking determined I Will not have to do this

I will figure out this password eventually someday Till then we find other ways of doing it,

I guess but anyway Anyway That's out here there, and I'm having to get used to using a different sound program

So I may have a few blips and bleeps here that I shouldn't have but we'll we'll get through all this and the benefits definitely outweigh the disadvantages

But as it may I announced this morning on the blog that I want to start off today. I want to get back to the buzzard

Sanders debate because eventually Either Thursday or in sometime next week.

I've got to get to this before we get to the Encounter in London, and I have a feeling given that Sir Anthony buzzard commented on my

Encounter with Michael Brown that that he may be listening and I hope I hope yes Because it would be so much better than the vast majority debates

I do where they don't listen at all to what I have to say and I have to keep explaining things and and I know

That he has the forgotten Trinity. He's written about me in his newsletter before so Hopefully this will be very good, but I want to get to Sir Anthony buzzards primary argument in defense of Sassanian Christology a very interesting theological system that he promotes

I was listening to his encounter with Michael Brown today, and he insists he believes in penal substitutionary atonement

Which of course is a reformed concept? while denying the deity of Christ It's a very very odd conglomeration of numerous different Perspectives, I think it's the

Church of God of the Abrahamic faith I believe is is the name or something like that Atlanta Bible College is very very very interesting

But be that as it may I want to get to his use of Psalm 110 one Because it occurs

I think in every single discussion. I've heard so far. I download all his his sound files

Where he discusses Hebrews 1 and John 1 and and various and sundry things and as far as I've been able to tell so far

Every single discussion he has on a subject eventually gets around to someone ten one and his understanding that text

But was very interesting as I listened just a couple days ago to his presentation on Hebrews 1 which

I knew was gonna be very very interesting given the numerous references to the deity of Christ pre -existence of Christ creatorship of Christ That's found in Hebrews 1.

That's the whole point of the chapter Especially verses 10 through 12 which identified Jesus Yahweh well the way he got around that Is not only the first time

I've ever heard that way as far as the application he made but it is a almost humorous example of how

Sasanianism is is not only rationalistic, but completely inconsistent Because the methodology he uses to get around Hebrews 1 is the exact opposite methodology

He insists upon for Psalm 110 one so we'll take a look at that I'm hoping to be able to write something up and put in the blog

So that we can take a look at it because I think it would be really good to go in -depth on this People like and we do that to go into the text look at the original languages and things like that But before that I announced on the blog this morning

That I want to respond to the fact that on Friday morning. I got up in Atlanta.

I flew there on Thursday, and I got up in Atlanta and checked my email and Lo and behold here was a a link forwarded to me from one of our listeners

Informing me that I had been mentioned by name on the Thursday edition of the pastor's perspective on k -wave which is the

Calvary Chapel flagship station and That I might find it interesting to listen in and so I did took me forever to download the file for some reason and once I got it

I Started listening I had to skip toward the end. I put the link actually

I should have put on the blog But I tweeted it this morning So that's that's out there somewhere, and hey,

I just realized I have tweet deck on this thing now Hey, I tried to install tweet deck on the other one

But it just crashed everything right left in the center, so I couldn't do that, but now You'll be able to tweet me as well.

That's that's great there. It is there's tweet deck Oh, and it makes noise too

I Will have to turn that off. Yes, I will have to go the preferences and turn that off, but anyway

Play notification sound no longer, okay Let's just listen to the program this was the standard group that is there on on the pastor's perspective including

Chuck Smith and Let's listen to the caller. I sort of pick up in the middle of the callers call because first part wasn't overly relevant, but Here's the call on election

Let's listen to the entirety of the call and comments And then I want to go back over and respond to it bit by bit

Calvinism or whatever you want to call it was that it wasn't just for God to judge us before we had the chance of sin but Calvin presented it as more of it was a plan of the ultimate glorification of God and That and then he asked the question is there any justice, but or is it sorry is there any justice of God?

but that is but except for that which is perceived by man and So I just kind of want to get your perspective on that whole

We would love to give it to you Kyle Chuck That's a difficult issue because it they do seem to be mutually exclusive.

Yeah, no, there's how can you explain? Yeah, the fact that I'm a free moral agent now and yet the election of God, you know and and that's one of those difficult things and and I I think that It's something that We won't really fully understand well, we wouldn't till we get to heaven

Brian. Do you love to answer that question, too? Yeah, you go first. Yeah Well, you know, here's what it seems to me that the

Calvinist have done among other things It seems to me that they have redefined certain words Yes and so they've taken the word sovereignty and they've given it sort of their own definition their definition meaning that Nothing can possibly happen

That isn't caused by God. Yeah, and if God doesn't cause everything to happen then somehow he's not sovereign

That's a wrong definition of sovereignty. I think a better definition is If you're sovereign you do what you want to do and then

God's sovereignty he chose to give men a free will so I think the whole debate between free will and sovereignty is a

Misguided debate in the first place because it's based on a wrong definition of sovereignty Yeah, Kyle John Calvin taught a double predestination meaning not only were some people predestined to eternal life through Christ Others were predestined before they were even born to eternal damnation

Now there are many problems we would have with that not the least of which the scriptures assumes

We all have choice when we hear choose which day you're going to serve over and over again It bail be God serve him if Yahweh be

God serve him Jesus in Matthew 23 said Jerusalem Jerusalem How often I wanted to gather you as a mother hen gathers her chicks, but you weren't willing now that assumes choice

But according to the double predestination view There was the choice was already made for before they were born and then what makes it worse when they get judged

They're gonna be condemned for something by definition They had no possibility to do and that is believe in Christ because their fate had been sealed before birth and then to make matters

Worse we're told to act like God and if God acts this way That seems rather unfair to you know set the rules

Make it impossible for someone to come to him and then judge them for something by definition

They couldn't do because he made it impossible for them to do That this doesn't seem to gel with the

God that we know the God of the Bible who sincere desire according to 2nd Peter 3 9 is that none should perish but all should come to repentance and So we have some really really difficult

You know problems with that a particular perspective and so Kyle with all due respect to John Calvin He is a great interpreter in many other areas with the idea of double

Predestination and that we think he's really really off the beam any other thoughts on that Chuck or Brian Oh Yeah, too many to tell you

I know that's just yeah But it it's it's it gives kind of God such a bad name doesn't it when you take it to its logical well

That's it taking it out to the logical end. Yeah, it just You know you can't understand or put the two things no no it really presents a harsh

Yeah, harsh view of God and and really in them in many ways off a heartless.

Yeah, exactly Yeah, you guys you remember some months ago. We were talking about the same subject and we mentioned

That you know in some ways I mentioned that I think in some ways Calvinism is a sort of Christianity without Jesus now that went all over the internet and James White got a hold of he did a big

But but and you know all of this speculation about what I meant by that one guy said oh this guy

Brian Broderson He evidently just reads the red letters He thinks the red letters are only inspired he doesn't recognize

Paul's inspiration and so forth no Let me clarify what I meant by that what I meant by that Is that the heart of Jesus is not?

Existent in Calvinism the heart of Jesus is one of compassion one of mercy one of love and and it just it doesn't come across I've read

You know systematic theologies by Calvinist. I've listened to Calvinist preachers. I've read dozens of commentaries by Calvinist You know and you just the heart of Jesus just is missing so often you know

Because the Lord's heart was obviously like you quoted there from Matthew how often

I wanted to gather you together The Lord's heart is to save everybody not condemn Most and just sovereignly for his glory elect a few

Yeah, and with all due respect again to our Calvinist brethren many of whom put us in the category of not to say

But the loss because we're leading people astray. You know we know they know the Lord We just think they've got it just a really wrong view of the nature of God there and like again what

Brian said the heart of Jesus that Came to die for the sins of the world and it just seems so heartless if you take it out to his extreme

And it's logical in that here He would fix the game in such a way where he would tell people to do something by definition

They couldn't do because he's the one keeping them from doing it that just doesn't seem right all right enough for that We can go on and on let's go to So there's there's the discussion at right toward the end of the program.

I tweeted the URL you can get off of kwave I think it's the last of the pastor's perspectives that have been posted so far so for February 4th now

There's there's obviously you know the fact that The response we gave and put on YouTube which has been seen multiple thousands of times on YouTube Obviously people are talking about it, and it's getting these folks, and I'm glad But I don't see any evidence that they're actually seriously thinking about what people say in response to them

Which is a reason for great concern from my perspective That you should at least be able to hear what other people are saying to you and then

Improve your criticisms if your position is accurate and true If your position is not accurate and true, then you know you're just gonna keep repeating the same things

But I would like to respond this I'd like to especially address Brian Broderson and his comments

Toward the end there Concerning Calvinism not having the heart of Jesus, but there is so many errors before that That I want to go back to the beginning and this time

We'll we'll stop and start and we'll respond And try to provide some correction and of course let me say this right up front

I would invite any of these gentlemen to contact us. We would gladly have them on the program

I would love to have Brian Broderson on to explain how Calvinism does not contain the heart of Jesus.

Let's look at the Bible together Let's look at the scriptures like Michael O 'Brien, and I did Or any of the other gentlemen on the panel including

Chuck Smith be happy to have them on the program Be happy to have them join us And I would be happy to be on their program as well

To respond to these things to talk about John 6 and in these texts I think it would be very useful to people and I am fully confident not of my skills as a debater

I am fully confident of the clarity of the Word of God I am fully confident with then when

God's people hear God's truth. They'll recognize it and So that's an invitation is very much open to those gentlemen.

So let's let's start back at at the beginning and Let's let's provide some some response but Calvin presented it as more of it was a plan of the ultimate glorification of God and That and then he asked the question

Is there any justice but or is it sorry is there any justice of God, but that is but except for that which is perceived by man and So I just kind of want to get your perspective on that whole

We would love to give it to you Kyle Chuck Go ahead

Don if you'd love to get to that's such a difficult issue because it they do seem to be mutually exclusive Yeah, no, there's how can you explain the fact that I'm a free moral agent now and yet the election of God you know and and that's one of those difficult things and and I think that How difficult is it?

I mean if we go to the scriptures and I I would like you to contrast this brief

Discussion that I'm gonna give right now with what you're gonna hear in Just a moment from one of these speakers and just contrast it in Isaiah chapter 10 we read the following words

Assyria the rod of my anger the staff in their hands is my fury Against a godless nation.

I send him against the people of my wrath I command him to take spoil and seize plunder and to tread them down like the mire of the streets

But he that is Assyria does not so intend and his heart does not so think But it is in his heart to destroy and to cut off nations

Not a few for he says are not my commanders all kings is not Calno like car commission

It's not Hamas like our pod is not Samaria like Damascus These were places that they had destroyed already as my hand has reached the kingdoms the idols whose carved images were greater than those of Jerusalem and Samaria shall

I not do to Jerusalem and her idols as I have done to Samaria and her idols When the Lord has finished all his work on Mount Zion on Jerusalem He will punish the speech of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the boastful look in his eyes for he says

By the strength of my hand I have done it and by my wisdom for I have understanding

I removed the boundaries of peoples and plundered the treasures like a bull. I bring down those who sit on the thrones

My hand has found like a nest the wealth the people's and as one gathers eggs that have been forsaken So I have gathered all the earth and there is none that moved a wing or open the mouth or chirped

Then God asked a question Isaiah 10 15 shall the axe boast over him who hues with it or the saw magnify itself against him who wields it as If a rod should wield him who lifts it and or as if a staff should lift him who is not wood therefore the

Lord of God's God of hosts will send wasting sickness among his stout warriors and Under his glory a burning will be kindled like the burning of fire the light of Israel will become a fire and as holy one

Aflame that will burn and devour his thorns and briars in one day Here you have so very clearly

The presentation of God's sovereignty and man's sin

You have man's sin first seen the people of Israel The people of Israel have broken the

Covenant and as God had promised in Deuteronomy 28 and 29 curses and blessings These are the curses and he brings a people against Israel to punish them against a godless nation

I send him against the people of my wrath. I command him verse 6 So God says I'm bringing a

Syria against Israel. I'm bringing a Syria against Israel to punish Israel's sin To take spoil seize plunder tread them down like mire in the streets.

I am responsible for bringing a Syria against Israel But verse 7 he does not so intend and my friends if you believe in the autonomous will of man

Then you need to answer the question. How can this be? It is not the intention the king of Assyria To be the instrument in God's hands of judging the peace of people of Israel the

Assyrians are pagans The Assyrians do not worship the one true God they are bloodthirsty evil murderous people

God has had to restrain their hand so much for autonomous free will on any level if God restrains evil

There's no autonomous free will of man if he uses men as his means of Punishment there is no autonomous free will either because they are doing something

But it's not their intention to do that and please note the issue of intentionality It is based on the intention of their hearts that they are judged

They're not judged for coming against the people of Israel. God intended that and that was his holy and perfect Will they are judged for the attitude of their hearts?

that is the important thing to remember at that point and That's what's missing and all of the criticisms offered by well everyone that I've ever seen in Calvary Chapel They refuse to allow the biblical categories to stand and the biblical categories is

God judges us based upon the intentions of our hearts That's why

Genesis 50 does teach the position known as compatibilism that God's sovereign decree and The judgment of man's sin they're compatible with one another and so you see in this text

That these men are not being they're not innocent moral agents being forced to do something bad

They're doing what their hearts want to do. God has to restrain them from doing more He doesn't allow them to wipe out all of Israel.

He leaves a remnant for himself. Does he not and So God's restraining their evil, but he uses their evil for his purpose.

They are judged on The basis of the attitude of their heart Specific text says the attitude the heart of the king of Assyria Arrogance or refusal to acknowledge that everything they have comes from God's hand

It is sinful in God's sight to not acknowledge that everything you possess Comes from God Everything you possess comes from God and it's sinful to not be thankful to him.

That's what Romans 1 tells us So keep that in mind there you have a clear

Biblical example and if if you disagree with what I just said Can you demonstrate that the text does not say what

I just said? Is that not a consistent reading of? Isaiah chapter 10 verses 5 through 17

It is So with that in mind we return back to the statements that are going to be made by the folks

Calvary Chapel Do they show an understanding of these types of fundamental truths about God's nature

Revealed in the text of Scripture these men direct people to Scripture. They say go to the

Bible and That is why that is why my friends

Calvary Chapel keeps producing Calvinists because they keep telling people to go to the

Bible and Until they start Getting deeper into the text

Well, it's gonna cause them a real problem to keep telling people to go to the Bible.

It's It's something that We won't really fully understand well, we wouldn't till we get to heaven

Brian. Do you love to answer that question, too? Yeah, you go first. Yeah Well, you know, here's what it seems to me that the

Calvinist have done among other things It seems to me that they have redefined certain words Yes And so they've taken the word sovereignty and they've given it sort of their own definition their definition meaning that nothing can possibly happen

That isn't caused by God. Yeah, and if God doesn't cause everything to happen then somehow he's not sovereign

That's a wrong definition of sovereignty. I think a better definition is If you're sovereign you do what you want to do and then

God's sovereignty he chose to give men a free will So I think the whole okay now, let's let's stop right there

Why is that a definition of sovereignty? That's not a definition of sovereignty at all That that is the well,

I don't want to be unkind. That's the weasel way out That's not a definition of sovereignty to say sovereignty means that God and his sovereign will gives man free will

Means that God and his sovereignty abdicates his sovereignty to man. Is that what you're really saying? What do you mean by free will they throw this word around?

It's not a biblical word So you have to find some way of defining it and don't go to free will offerings in the

Old Testament That's not what it's about Tell us how it is that the Bible can continually talk about the limitations on man's abilities the limitations on man's will

The slavery of man to sin and yet you believe that man is autonomous Explain this to us

If you want explain to us you better start explaining to your people you have to explain to somebody so How is it an explanation of God's sovereignty that he abdicates his sovereignty and gives to men autonomous free will if you at the same?

Time continue to confess that God when he created knew what the result was going to be This is the point that I really need to try to before we schedule

The the conversation with dr. Brown here on the program find out where he's coming from on this because on one hand

These folks want to say God accomplishes all his soul his holy will Okay, how much of it?

Well all of it. How extensive is it? Well, we don't know Because on the one hand they want to say well, no, he he didn't decree

What Joseph's brothers did But the other hand they want to say he did decree to save many people alive

So he decreed the ends but not the means to get there How does that work?

As long as you're a theist and not an open theist You're stuck with the same question and the question is when

God created he knew infallibly Exactly what was going to take place in time? He either did so based upon a divine decree

That gives purpose and meaning to everything or he tossed the cosmic dice and came out on top

Some people I've even heard theorize That God tossed the cosmic dice a number of times lost at first then just wiped that out

Decided not to go there and then finally tossed it out there. I win Wow, I mean that starts that starts to sound like Mullen ism and science fiction again

You know ran the numbers and all because of what because of the fiction and it's a fiction of human autonomy

Where is that in Scripture it's nowhere it's not there Jesus said you had to be freed you want free will

What does John 8 say if You abide in my word then you are truly my disciples and you will know the truth and the truth will what?

Set you free There's freedom But what that means is everyone doesn't have it outside of regeneration and freedom in Christ so all this philosophy

Doesn't accomplish anything in in this context whatsoever debate between free will and sovereignty is a

Misguided debate in the first place because it's based on a wrong definition of sovereignty See what has happened here

You've just taken the sovereign decree of God and redefined on the basis the autonomous will of man and it's no wonder you end up With so much of the

Bible being upset upside down When you redefine things in that way, yeah Kyle John Calvin taught a double predestination

Meaning not only were some people predestined to eternal life through Christ others were predestined before they were even born to eternal damnation

Now notice that's just he's just taking that straight from George Bryson but notice the error of Equal ultimacy and I have had to address this many many times before It is a misrepresentation of the

Calvary Chapel folks. They get it from George Bryson. We've corrected George Bryson on it But again when your arguments aren't all that good you have to stick with the ones that you actually find working with the majority of people

It is not the same it is not the identical same thing to predestine a

People in the salvation Jesus Christ as it is to in the decree of God Decree that those who sin will receive justice and they're just deserts.

That's not the same thing. One is mere act of judgment The other is an extension of powerful grace

Against the demands of judgment that have to be fulfilled in another way specifically through the self -giving of Jesus Christ They are not just simply the two sides the same coin

You can simply you can simplify things that way if you want to But the result of that is is a twisted view of things and a lot of people do that sadly but they are not the same things and Calvin does recognize the difference.

Yes He does believe in double predestination in the sense that there is a decree of reprobation

But that he clearly recognizes that's not the same thing as the decree of salvation itself

Please keep that in mind. You're not going to hear that correctly from the Calvary Chapel folks I've never seen anyone who actually does accurately represent that but I think it all comes from the same bad source at that point now

There are many problems We would have with that not the least of which the scriptures assumes We all have choice when we hear choose which day you're going to serve over and notice more straw men

Where did anyone say we don't have choice? The point is autonomous choice We choose all the time but based on our corrupt nature we choose against God That's why

Romans a can say those who are according to the flesh Can not submit themselves to the law of God Why not

Why not Calvary Chapel folks? What can you answer that question? Why does Romans 8 say what it says? Why does

Jesus say in John 6 44? No man is able to come to me. Yes We make choices, but our choices are always those that are bound up in sin

And that's why Jesus said why do you not understand what I'm saying to you because you do not belong to God You Would not answer that question the way

Jesus did why because you don't have a biblical anthropology You don't have a biblical view of man over again if they'll be

God serve him if Yahweh be God serve him Jesus in Matthew 23 said Jerusalem Jerusalem How often

I wanted to gather you as a mother hen gathers her chicks, but you weren't willing now that assume now at least at this point

This time it wasn't quoted. It wasn't misquoted He meant he mentions the chicks but shows

Absolutely, no understanding whatsoever of the distinction. He didn't say children.

Oh man, we're choice, but according to the That's let's listen to it again, let's listen to it again because I Listened to that three said

Jerusalem Jerusalem how often I wanted to gather you as a mother hen. Yeah, those are chicks But you weren't willing

Even I missed that one because I heard the chicks part. I'm like, oh they finally got it, right That You know if If we tried to reproduce

The text of the New Testament solely based upon the citations of our minions there be certain entire parts the

Bible would disappear And Matthew 23 37 would change as it has as it is miscited

Over and over and over and over again by these folks that demonstrate to us very clearly the reality of tradition

Tradition warping the scriptures tradition changing the scriptures And in Matthew 23, you're taking a judgment

Oracle Against the leadership in Jerusalem read the whole chapter see how verse 37 is a parallel to verse 13 and See it that is a text announcing judgment upon the blind

Jewish leaders who thought they were serving God but in their twistedness were in fact opposing

God's Purposes and turn it into a major Soteriological text affirming the autonomy of the will of man what and um, it's no wonder we have hard time getting folks to debate these issues

From the Calvary Chapel perspective because we saw what happened with George Bryson and here it is again Let's just miscite that text and then here's what happens then

You have the Redefinition of the heart of Jesus based upon this Miscitation of Matthew 23 and on the basis that say we're the ones missing the heart of Jesus That's what is really amazing about this now that assumes choice

But according to the double predestination view there was the choice was already made for before they were born

And then what makes it worse when they get judged they're gonna be condemned for something by definition They had no possibility to do and that is believe in Christ because their fate had been sealed before birth

Now notice what he just said they're judged on the basis where they believed in Christ. I thought they're judging the base.

There's sin and Again go back and compare what was just said

By what was said in Isaiah chapter 10 and the exact same

Objections would have to be raised against what God does to the Assyrians That's why we don't get dialogues on this.

We only get monologues I can guarantee you and I'm gonna make sure

I'm gonna I'm gonna take the time have to remind me they're rich to take time after the program's over once I've got the video up to to drop a line to these gentlemen and Invite them to watch

Invite them on the program and let them know of my willingness to be on their program

You want to take any bets on the possibility that happened? Not really

Lunch today, maybe at least Getting a thumbs down on that one Yeah it just it amazes me only one side's willing to dialogue about this and But and then to make matters worse, we're told to act like God and if God acts this way

That seems rather unfair to you know Set the rules make it impossible for someone to come to him and then judge make it

Impossible for someone to come to him see the straw man No reformed person believes that there is anyone who has ever desired to come to Christ God said nope, nope, nope

I'm not gonna have you don't don't want you go away Nobody and yet.

Why do they have to misrepresent this? Our belief is outside of the sovereign working of the

Spirit of God. No one would ever Turn in true faith and repentance to Jesus Christ They men love their sin, what did

Jesus say men love darkness rather than the light

They are not willing to come to the light lest their deeds be exposed

You see if you don't understand that if you just keep rejecting if you keep holding this this humanism

It is a humanism. It makes man the center of all things if you continue holding this humanism That says that you came to the light but others don't and you're not willing to see that the only difference was the grace of God that made that a reality in your life

It's hard to avoid some type of boasting over the lost in this system. It really is well, if they just open their eyes like I Did know the opening of the eyes comes in the

Spirit of God them for something by definition They couldn't do because he made it impossible for them to do that this doesn't seem to gel with the

God that we know the God of the Bible who Sincere desire according to 2nd Peter 3 9 is that none should perish but all should come to repentance

So we've had Matthew 23 37 and 2nd Peter 3 9. I think I properly titled that chapter the big three because if we threw in first Timothy 2 4 we'd have well everything they've got and Since we never hear them exegete these texts

Oh, they'll quote 2nd Peter 3 9 till the cows come home but they'll never answer the real questions like Could you explain why all these verses you quote are not actually in?

Specifically soteriological sections and could you explain why it is that when Peter says he's patient toward you

Not wishing for any to perish that any means any of you who is the you could you explain?

How it is you have determined in Peter's epistle That the you is the entire world

Especially since when he talks about false teachers he talks about them the third person they he's not addressing them

So doesn't he want to save them? They'd have to say yes, but see now you start seeing the position get so tied up in its own internal self -contradictions that it can't even see straight any longer, but I want to answer questions like that and Sadly in many churches if you dare ask questions like that once someone actually alerts you to these things well, you're a troublemaker and You just might want to find yourself a

Calvinist Church to go to we don't want that kind of stuff around here And so we have some really really difficult

You know problems with that a particular perspective and so Kyle with all due respect to John Calvin He is a great interpreter in many other areas with the idea of double

Predestination that we think he's really really off the beam any other thoughts on that Chuck or Brian Now before Brian begins his section

I want to return respond to and it doesn't look like that can be getting to anything else today does it I? Do want to respond it to at least one individual out there in Twitter land who

Has a common question and that is is there anything in between? Believing that God has a sovereign purpose and everything and maybe saying

God has a sovereign purpose and some things just not everything Could could could we allow for some kind of you know

Freedom of people to do certain things that really are part of God's plan But the problem with that concept aside from the fact that God accomplished all of his holy will

And hence is glorified in all things the problem with that is that everything in this life

Is connected to everything else. I mean it has been well said that it was it was a mere little pebble

That turned entire the battle battle of Waterloo small little things have huge impacts and None of us know

How any small little thing can? Impact all the else that takes place now if you want to say well there are certain things that just are completely indifferent

They have no impact whatsoever. They don't change you as a person They don't become a part of your personality anything like that if you want to come up with that I don't

I can't imagine how you could prove that but and for some reason Say that man has the will to do whatever in that area of indifference fine.

Go ahead. I Know skin off my nose because I don't think you can even come up with anything like that To say that well what

I do in this area does not affect me as a person how I act how I respond things I just don't

I don't see any reason for that But the point is that when God created his decree determined the form of time and If anything that you want to say is indifferent is going to change

That decree that's where the problem lies and Again any theist has that problem you have the theist who believe

God has a purpose in all things you have theists who believe that God doesn't have a purpose in all things you have the purposeful theism and the non -purposeful theism and for some reason to Defend the autonomy of man people go with the other, but anyways, let's let's continue on With with the next section because this is where we get to the reference to myself and to this

Calvinism not having the heart of Jesus. Oh, yeah too many to tell you I know Yeah, but it's it gives kind of God such a bad name doesn't it when you take it to its logical well

That's it gives God a bad name Because he's sovereign he's accomplishing all his purposes and and we want to be really really concerned about what lost people think about God I'm sorry.

I've never understood that one Because every I mean atheists think God has a bad name.

Should we should we start backing off on everything and offend atheists? Doesn't give all that's gives

God. I mean what they've been presenting is a bunch of straw man We've already demonstrated how many errors just basic facts of ignorance right there

So, yeah your straw man view of God would would be offensive to anybody sure But that's different than actually dealing with reform theology taking it out to the logical end.

Yeah, it just You know, you can't understand or put the two things together.

No, it really presents a Harsh. Yeah harsh view of God and and really in many ways off a heartless.

Yeah, exactly Yeah, you guys you remember some months ago? We were talking about the same subject and we mentioned that You know in some ways

I mentioned that I think in some ways Calvinism is a sort of Christianity without Jesus now that went all

Over the internet and a James White got ahold of he did a big James White did something about it.

Yeah, you know when you are is anyone really surprised? That if you are going to say that that in essence attack someone's entire understanding of the gospel

From a position of ignorance that they might respond to that But my real my real concern is what's could be presented here.

I believe this is Brian Broderson speaking Is this idea of Christianity without the heart of Jesus listen to what he says and then

I want to ask Mr. Broderson some questions, but but and you know all of this speculation about what

I mean by that one guy said Oh this guy Brian Broderson. He evidently just reads the red letters.

He thinks the red letters are only inspired He doesn't recognize Paul's inspiration and so forth. No, let me clarify what

I meant by that what I meant by that Is that the heart of Jesus is not?

Existent in Calvinism the heart of Jesus is one of compassion one of mercy one of love

And and it just it doesn't come across I've read You know systematic theologies by Calvinist.

I've listened to Calvinist preachers. I've read dozens of commentaries by Calvinist You know,

I just stopped here to say if that's true. That's very disappointing It's one thing when people are simply ignorant

For them to misrepresent the position That they're ignorant of if this is true, and he's read all this stuff then there's no reason for all this misrepresentation and that is troubling and You just the heart of Jesus just is missing.

Yeah, so often, you know Because the Lord's heart was obviously like you quoted there from Matthew how often

I wanted to gather you together The Lord's heart is to save everybody not condemn Now notice what you we had there again now we have a summary statement

Which again demonstrates that none of these men have ever taken the time or seem to be willing

To look at Matthew 23 and realize I am misrepresenting this text It does not say what

I'm saying. It says but I'm gonna keep saying it does that's a shame But I'd like to ask

Brian Brodersen some questions You say that Calvinism does not have the heart of Jesus what

Jesus are we talking about? Well from your perspective, it's the Jesus who wants to save everybody

That's what you're saying to people You reject Calvinism because well the

Jesus of Calvinism His his heart is not the same as the

Jesus that I have who wants to save Everyone and so I just want to ask everyone including

Brian Brodersen does the Jesus you represent? Does the

Jesus you talk about? Have the heart of the Jesus of Matthew 11 25 and following Where Jesus said at that time

Jesus said I praise you father Lord of heaven and earth That you have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants

Yes father for this way was well pleasing in your sight all things have been handed over to me by my father and no one knows the

Son except the father nor does anyone know the father except the Son and Anyone to whom the

Son wills to reveal him How does that fit into your heart of Jesus mr.

Brodersen Because Jesus rejoiced that the father had judicially hidden Hidden from men the truth about who he was and what

God was doing in the world Elsewhere Jesus talks about The very judgment of God in making men's hearts fat their eyes dull their ears thick and Here he rejoices that this was pleasing in the father's sight to bring judgment and in fact

Jesus here teaches that No one knows the father except the Son and anyone to whom the

Son wills to reveal him If the Son wills to reveal the father someone they will know the father

It's not up to the one to whom it's revealed as to whether he's gonna accept this revelation This is a sovereign act of Jesus where where is that Jesus's heart in Your theology your synergistic theology where Jesus tries and tries and tries

But fails so many times Mr. Brodersen where where is that Jesus I?

Would like to know how how you answer that question or I would like to know how you answer the question this

Jesus of yours Is he a perfect Savior in John chapter 6

Jesus gives us an indication of the very relationship the father and son When he says that he came down of heaven not to do his will but the will the one who sent him that is the father

And then he said this is the will of whom was sent me that of all that he has given me I lose Nothing, but raise it up on the last day

Jesus saves a particular people Perfectly he doesn't try to save them.

He says all the father gives me will come to me all Mr.. Brodersen I I need to understand

How does this fit the heart of Jesus that we have a sovereign Savior who actually saves?

Not those who enable him to save them by their autonomous free will you won't find that anywhere in John 6 or John 8 or John 10 and those texts you'll hear about men who don't belong to God.

That's why they don't hear That's why they don't come or in John 10 you you really don't think that the sheep choose the shepherd do you?

But the shepherd lays down his life for his sheep, and then he says the Jews you're not my sheep Where do you how do you fit this into your synergistic system your system where Jesus tries to be a

Savior? But doesn't accomplish The salvation of people he's trying to save Is he trying to save everyone equally mr..

Brodersen was this is the heart of Jesus was the heart of Jesus amongst the Amorites But he didn't send them any prophets

Was was the heart of Jesus there when when the Israelites are are brought in to kill man woman and child in judgment

Was was was there a conflict between God the Father who decreed this and and the son who doesn't want to see it happen because he's

Trying to save them with all of his Power, but he can't be well because well.

It's really up to man Is that the heart of Jesus Mr.. Brodersen III see a contradiction

Between the words of Jesus and what you think the heart of Jesus is because you see mr.

Brodersen you've decided to only believe a certain portion of what the Bible says about Jesus's heart and All the stuff where Jesus's heart demonstrates the balance of God's glory and God's purpose

The accomplishment of God's will that part disappeared that parts gone

How can that be that in John chapter 17 when Jesus is pouring out his heart in prayer to the

Father is high priestly prayer He says I do not pray for the world. I pray for those you've given me out of the world

How is how is that God's how is that Jesus's heart mr.. Brodersen? May I suggest to you sir

Calvinism isn't lacking the heart of Jesus Calvinism Just simply has a biblical understanding of who

Jesus is what he did and what his purposes are and since you refuse because of your traditions

Traditions that cause you to misquote the Bible and misrepresent the Bible not purposely But because you are so enmeshed in those traditions just like Dave Hunt and George Bryson You're so enmeshed in those traditions you misrepresent the

Bible because of that you have missed the clear Biblical teaching about the real heart of Jesus, which is much greater than the rather sentimental view

That you attribute to him and so it's not a matter of Calvinism lacking the heart of Jesus It is the traditions of men embraced by the leadership of Calvary Chapel made into a dogma in essence

Because you question it oh I can I can I can send you to a lot of folks It'll tell you what happens when you when you discover these truths of the

Bible start preaching them in a Calvary Chapel You get in a lot of trouble Made him dogmas, but they're the traditions of men and they overthrow the text of Scripture So much so that here twice in one little clip.

We've listened to two different men in The leadership of Calvary Chapel misquote a text because they just Won't take the time to seriously step back and go is that really what

Matthew 23 37 is saying or am I misrepresenting this? It's a dangerous thing folks.

It is a dangerous thing when you hear

Men who carry the Word of God in their hands But the lens that they have allowed to be placed upon their eyes is so thick they can no longer see what it's actually saying that is a dangerous thing and It leads

To exactly what we just heard Not only a false accusation against those who allow all of Scripture to speak

But then the encouragement to others to stay away Don't believe those things that's truly dangerous the heart of Jesus.

I Suggest we look to Book of Revelation When Jesus speaks to his churches long after his resurrection

Well, I see who Jesus is powerful mighty holy

He is Lord and Lord is not a term of mere potentiality

He rules over his churches He is not the meek beggar

Standing at the door That has no knob on the outside Asking to come in to misuse and abuse of Revelation 320 the

Jesus of Revelation chapter 3 Is a sovereign Lord a sovereign

King who yes has given himself in sack self -sacrificial love but he's done so first and foremost to the glory of the triune

God and By means of his giving the salvation of a specific people under the praise and glory of that God It is never ever

Focused upon man, and it is never ever a situation where God is dependent on the sovereign

Will of the creature to accomplish his purposes Mr.. Broderson, I would invite you to consider that I think you've missed the message of Scripture Thank you for listening to the dividing line today

We will continue on with jump right into the Anthony buzzer material the next time on the program.

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