July 23, 2018 Show with Dr. Tim J. R. Trumper on “Reformed Outreach to the Unchurched: Introducing the International Outreach Publication ‘The Way’ or ‘El Camino’ (Spanish)”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnton. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnton, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this, what date is today?

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23rd day of July 2018 and I am delighted to have as a returning guest today on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

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Tim J .R. Trumper, who is founder and president from, or should

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I say founder and president of, From His Fullness Ministries. He is also the former senior minister of Seventh Reformed Church in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and today we are going to be discussing a reformed outreach to the unchurched, introducing the international outreach publication,

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The Way, or El Camino in Spanish, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

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Tim J .R. Trumper. Thank you very much, Chris, glad to be with you today and thank you very much for having me.

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And for the sake of refreshing the memories of our listeners, if you could tell us a little bit about your background, where you were born and raised, where you came to the faith of Jesus Christ, specifically the

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Reformed faith, and how you eventually made your way to Grand Rapids, Michigan, in the

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United States. Thank you, Chris. Well, I'm from Wales and I grew up in a

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Christian family and I thank God for that. My father was a minister in the Presbyterian Church in Wales and he ministered for 20 years in Pembrokeshire, which is the southwest corner of Wales, facing

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Ireland. He was a staunch defender of the faith and he was led of the

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Lord, really, to break away from the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, Wales. He was the first Evangelical minister in his congregation for 90 years.

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For how many years? 90. Wow. Yeah, the ravages of liberalism from the 19th century coming over from Germany, influencing

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Welsh candidates for the ministry, led to a great depletion in the Presbyterian Church in Wales. And in order to have the freedom to preach the gospel, he ended up leading out of the denomination, those who'd come to faith, and planted a church there, which is still going nearly 50 years later.

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So that was my background, familiar with the Reformed faith, but more aware of the battles between conservatism and liberalism.

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And then I went to study at the Free Church of Scotland in Edinburgh and there was taught very well and eventually came across to America, and one thing led to another.

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And in 2007, I came to be minister of Seventh Reformed Church in Grand Rapids and was there for 10 years.

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Great. Well, praise God. I may have asked you this before, but I just can't remember the answer.

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My former pastor here at Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, David Campbell, although he was a

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Reformed Baptist, was educated at the Free Church of Scotland Seminary, and I was just curious if you knew him.

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Yes, I've known David. I heard about him when I went to the college. He was there before me and then had the privilege of preaching at his congregation in Darlington in the north of England.

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I believe that was after he had moved on to Carlisle. But he's a sweet brother and I remember him well and thank

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God for his ministry. Great. And of course, you're probably aware now he is pastoring the North Preston Evangelical Church in England.

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I heard he had returned and I pray that God would really bless him there and use him.

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Yes, I'm looking forward to his return as my guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, hopefully in the near future.

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Great. And if you happen to talk to him before I do, please send him my regards. I will certainly do so.

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And tell us now about from his fullness ministries.

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Yes, well, maybe I ought to step back and speak about my conversion.

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You asked me about that as well, and I think men down the centuries have tried to preach the gospel without actually knowing the gospel, so I deem it important for your listeners to know a little bit about how

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I came to the faith. And, you know, I grew up in a Christian household, but that didn't make me a

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Christian. And my parents were very concerned to teach me from a

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Presbyterian background both the privileges of being a covenant child, but also the responsibilities.

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And so when I was eight years of age, I was pondering what the

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Bible meant to believe. And I thought, well, I don't deny anything in the scriptures, so perhaps

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I am a Christian after all. And try to live that out for seven years and found out that that doesn't work.

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You don't have the power to live a godly life, and you don't have the desire to do so either.

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And so by the time I came to the age of 15, I came to realize that unless I came clean about my false profession of faith, the

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Lord wouldn't free me to seek him for himself. And so I remember one Sunday lunchtime, my father taking me to the bedroom and saying,

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I always rejoice that 25 percent of my children know the Lord, but I have to say

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I'm struggling to see the evidence of your conversion. And then he asked me a very poignant question which

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I've admired ever since. Do you love Christ? And he asked me, are you a

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Christian? I could have fudged the answer, but when he asked me, do you love Christ, he got right to the heart of the issue. And I saw that as a gift from God to be able to say, no,

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I don't. And I saw the color in his face drain, and he thanked me for being honest.

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And we didn't speak about it from that point, but for me it was an opportunity then to go and seek the

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Lord from scratch, and to ask him what it is to believe the

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Gospel. It's more than head knowledge, so what is it? And over the years

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I've learned that he includes conviction of sin and also a trust, a full resting upon Christ and his merits alone, his death alone for salvation.

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And so at the age of 15, that was just about three months later, I came to know the

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Lord, and I thank God that he's never let me down, he's never let me go. I've let him down, let him go on times, but he's been faithful even when

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I've been faceless, so I praise him for that, and seek now to look forward, forgetting those things that are behind, pressing toward the mark of the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

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Amen. Well now, let us know something about from his fullness ministries.

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Yeah, gladly so. I was minister at Seventh Reformed Church in Grand Rapids for 10 years, and it was a blessing and a privilege to minister there.

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But as many of your listeners will know, Grand Rapids is a city of churches. A lot of Reformed churches out there, too.

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Yeah, yeah, that's right, that's right. But I became more and more burdened over the years for the global church, and having traveled to places like Zambia and since then

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Ethiopia. Do you know my friend Dr. Conrad Mbewe out in Zambia? Yes, I first met him as a young man in Lusaka Airport on my first preaching trip there in 1993.

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Like many of us who have preached middle age, half the man he is now, way twice, but not theologically.

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Well, I wouldn't want to give people the impression that he is obese or anything. He seems like he's in good health.

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Yes, I'm thankful for that. We were both young men at the time, and there was a group of young men came to pick me up from the airport, and he kindly hosted me at his home one evening, met his good wife too, and have kept in touch with him from time to time, had him in the home here in Grand Rapids, and thankful very much for him and for the

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Reformed movement there in Zambia. If you want to rekindle the friendship,

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I urge you to come with me this January to the G3 conference in College Park, Georgia, which is a suburb of Atlanta, because he is one of the speakers there.

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Oh, great, great, great. Well, thank you for the invitation. We'll see what's on the calendar.

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Great. And I would strongly urge you to register for an exhibitor's booth from his fullness ministries.

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I am going to be manning for the third year in a row an exhibitor's booth for Iron Trump and Zion Radio at the

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G3 conference, which stands for Gospel, Grace, and Glory. And it is a Reformed conference, and they are expecting between 4 ,000 and 5 ,000 people this

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January, so I would strongly urge you to register for a booth, as I will be doing.

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My booths at this conference have proven to be very fruitful and beneficial to me and my ministry.

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Oh, good. Well, I appreciate that, appreciate the heads -up, and yes, we're keen to make friendships, we're keen to build partnerships, because we can't reach out to the global Church on our own, and we're not intending to either.

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But visits to Africa were one influence, preaching and teaching throughout

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Southeast Asia were another, and reading up and learning that there's one minister to 230, that's the ratio in America, and one minister to 450 ,000 in the rest of the world.

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Wow. And so I thought, well, here I am in a city of churches, and many people called of God could do the work

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I'm doing, but God has given me a heart and exposure to other parts of the world, and so why not seek the

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Lord as to what to do? And he gave the opportunity to found this ministry, and I'm so thankful for those who have enabled us to do so.

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And so now we partner with different organizations to go to different countries, preaching and teaching.

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But I'm also mindful not only of those parts of the world where God is converting people in the thousands who need teaching and training, specifically pastors who can't afford to come to the

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West, but also mindful of places like Europe, where they've had a great heritage, but the cause of the gospel has fallen on hard times.

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There are faithful people, but many of them discouraged, and we're seeking to build the foundation from scratch.

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So on the one hand, we're trying to deepen the faith of those who are coming in their droves to Christ, but on the other hand, trying to help and encourage the church in Europe and North America, too, to reach out to their communities.

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We've lost so much ground in some senses, but the opportunity and the freedom is still there to start seeking more earnestly the unreached and the unchurched.

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Praise God. Well, I'm going to give our listeners our email address if they would like to join us on the air with a question of their own.

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That's ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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Please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA, and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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Well, now let us know about the publication, The Way, that you wanted to highlight today.

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Well, that goes back to my time in Wales, really. My father was very much what I might call a spiritual entrepreneur.

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He was always thinking through new ideas for spreading the gospel and for being proactive in that regard.

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And in the church in which I grew up, first of all, in South Wales, he sent around the villages, connected an outreach magazine, and was very proactive in getting into the community and was a marvellous rural pastor.

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And then in 1982, God called him to a town called Holywell in North Wales, which was a very

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Roman Catholic town. It was a spillover from Liverpool. They have a shrine there.

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It's called the Lourdes of Wales. And so he was very concerned about the Catholic population in the town, a town of about 6 ,000 or 7 ,000.

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And so he started producing another publication called the Holywell Herald. And it was a great tribute, really, to the people of the congregation.

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It went to 3 ,000 homes, and we split up the town, and the congregation itself delivered the

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Holywell Herald to people's homes. Now, they weren't necessarily engaging them on the doorstep with the gospel, but they wanted the

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Holywell Herald to get to people's homes. And I don't know for how long he did that.

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He was minister of the church for four and a half years before retiring with multiple sclerosis.

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But it really put the church on the map in the town. And even though people weren't necessarily converted, they started speaking about the gospel.

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They started speaking about the church. They knew where the church was. And it really heightened the profile of the church and really made the communication of the gospel easier in that sense, because people knew what the church stood for.

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And so when I came to Seventh Reformed Church, I mean, a lot of my time was spent initially on looking at how the church operates and seeking to make the church more relevant in terms of its culture for the 21st century.

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But towards the end of my time there, after we put in place a mission statement and a vision statement, we looked at how we were operating.

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And one of the things we noticed was that although we had a mission to reach the community around the church, we were publishing each month a church magazine, which was very well done, is very well done, for the church members, but our practice was not reflecting the emphases of our mission and our vision.

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And so what we did was to alternate the publications. And so the church magazine,

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The Voice, went out to the congregation one month, and then The Way went out to the community the next month.

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And so when I completed my time at the church, I felt a sense of God's help in putting that together.

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And I thought, well, this is something that From His Fullness Ministries can do for free for the churches and promote it to help

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Reformed churches be more outward -looking and engaging their communities. Because not every congregation has either the time or the personnel to be able to do this, but this is something that we can do, led of the

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Lord, as a gift to the church. And so that's what we've started doing. It's a free, four -page publication that goes out four times a year, and we're encouraging individuals, churches, and ministries to adopt it, and they can customize their own copies for their own ministries and send it out.

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And I hope that that will help churches engage their communities in a meaningful way. Now, is this actually on paper, or is it an internet publication?

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Well, what we've tried to do is give various options. Churches have different finances, different personnel.

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So what I do is I put together what I call the master copy, and on the first page is an article of contemporary relevance.

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So the first issue was about the World Cup, which 3 .2 billion people participated in watching in 2014, at any rate.

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And about four from the United States. Well, actually, with all the

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Hispanics coming in, there's a lot more interest in the World Cup in America than before.

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And then the second page jumps off from the first page and deals with the topic biblically.

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The third page has a testimony relevant to what's gone in the first two pages, and then the third page really has a prayer on the back for the readers, plus a panel whereby churches, ministries, individuals can upload their own information, what's going on in their church, what's going on in their ministry.

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So on the one hand, a church can send out the way as a hard copy, and I can speak about how that's done, but I think most churches or ministries will probably upload it onto their website or send it out by email distribution, which would be a cheaper way to do it.

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Great. Well, now, before I forget, since I do have so many friends and brethren and mentors who are members and leaders in the

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Orthodox Presbyterian Church denomination, I'd like to know something about the congregation where you are now a member.

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Oh, well, I go to Little Farms Chapel Orthodox Presbyterian Church, which is a little bit out in the country from Grand Rapids.

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But it's a wonderful congregation, and I've been truly blessed under the ministry of Pastor Bob Van Manen, who expounds the scriptures faithfully each week.

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So there's a congregation, probably 200 or 300 people, and we're privileged to be a part of that.

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And they've been very supportive from His Fullness Ministries and thankful for the affinity we have with them in terms of the gospel, in terms of the

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Reformed faith, and that's where we've landed since completing our ministry at Seventh Reformed Church.

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By the way, I don't know if you have any contact with John R. DeWitt, who was at one time, as you know, the pastor at Seventh Reformed, but I've lost touch with him, and I'd love to interview him if you have any way of contacting him.

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Oh, well, I still have an email address and can certainly promote that.

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Great. I appreciate that. Well, we do have a couple of emails here from listeners who would like to ask you questions.

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Let's see here. The first questioner is RJ from White Plains, New York, who wants you to compare and contrast your

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Christian experience between Wales and the United States.

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Well, thank you very much, RJ. That's a very good question. And while you're at it, you might as well expand that to the

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United Kingdom so we get more of a broad understanding of what your response might be.

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Yes, although I have to say it's nice for somebody to identify Wales as England, so well done,

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RJ. Well, I grew up in Wales, and I've lived in England, I've lived in Scotland, and I've ministered in Northern Ireland, so I have a taste of all four parts of the

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United Kingdom. But one of the things we grew up hearing in the

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United Kingdom is, if it's come from America, it must be bad. And I think the reason for that is because when you're in Britain and you see a lot of American TV, it's the

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East Coast or the West Coast. You know, Jerry Springer and people hanging out there, dirty washing on the line on TV.

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That's actually kind of interesting that the folks in the UK would have that impression, because as a young kid,

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I used to watch BBC television, the specific shows that the

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American PBS public broadcasting systems would air.

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One of them became my favorite television program as a child through my teens and 20s,

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Monty Python's Flying Circus. Now, now that I'm a Christian, I don't know how much of that show

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I would watch, because you had full -blown nudity on that show, whereas that would never happen in those days.

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In fact, not even today in American television. So it's interesting to me that those in the UK would look upon America with a frowned face in those regards.

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Well, it may be more of a Christian impression, but what I found when I came to the

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United States was a very different picture than what I gained from being in Britain, because you've got the whole of the

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Middle States, which are far more Christianized, if I may say that, than the

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United Kingdom these days. And so living in the United States now 20 years, invariably when you see something from British TV, you know, you come to the conclusion if it's come from Britain, it may well be bad.

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Now, there's an awful lot of good stuff that comes over, but I'm thinking of some of the rock music, some of the ideas, and so I see things from both sides.

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But one of the things that's interesting is that within the course of my lifetime, there's been such a change of attitude towards the

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Church in Britain. And living in America now, it's almost like déjà vu of the same thing happening in a different period of my life, whereby the

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Church had some social kudos, and then society turns against it.

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And I see that very much happening in America right now. So there are similarities, but there are big differences as well.

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But the overall point for me in trying to put together the way is that we communicate the old, old story in a way that's relevant to our times.

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And so you find Paul in the New Testament when he's speaking in the synagogue to those who have the

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Bible, he quotes in Acts 13 from Psalm 2, and he mentions the psalm, but then of course when he gets to Acts 17, he pulls out the point of contact, the statue or the altar to the unknown

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God. So I think we have to know the times, as Paul calls us to, to communicate the

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Gospel in a relevant, reliable, but also a relevant way.

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Well thank you, RJ, in White Plains, New York. Keep listening to Onyx Sherpins Iron Radio and spreading the word about it in White Plains, New York, and beyond.

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Let's see here. We have BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who asks, in Wales and even in a broader sense, the

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United Kingdom, what is the state of ecumenism? Not only the negative kind where you have evangelicals having full -blown ecumenical relationships with apostate liberals and Roman Catholics, but also the good kind that is based on the

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Scripture, where sometimes we have, unfortunately, those who go to one extreme or the other when it comes to ecumenism.

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They are either full -blown ecumenists or they are isolationists and even perhaps bordering on being cultic in the way that they do not have any kind of cooperation or communication or fellowship with those outside their small sect or belief system, according to a particular denomination or fellowships, confession, or creed.

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Well, that's another great question. I believe the name was BB. Well, again,

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I may be somewhat out of touch or dated for having lived across here for so long now, but I do get the sense that there is a movement towards greater unity in the

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Gospel, visible unity in the Gospel, than perhaps there was when I was growing up. What seems to have occurred is a reaction against false ecumenism and hyper -independency leading to some isolationism, and that is certainly still there.

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But it seems to me that society has become more secular in Britain and more hostile to the

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Gospel, that people are learning to stand shoulder -to -shoulder more than perhaps they did before. So you do find evangelical bodies emerging which are promoting

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Gospel unity. I think, for instance, of the independent churches and the Fellowship of Independent Evangelical Churches.

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I think I read recently that they have over 500 churches operating together.

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And I think in Scotland, the breakdown of commitment to the

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Westminster Confession is bringing into question how much the traditional rivalries or hostilities between different Presbyterian denominations actually stand up, that although their traditions in terms of denominational affiliation have their place, there's a greater need to stand together on the

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Gospel with the combating of secularism in mind and humanism and getting back to reaching out together and standing together and being seen to stand together.

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So I think there are encouraging signs that there is a biblical ecumenism developing and the

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Lord bless it. Amen. Yes, I am really enjoying seeing the commitment to biblical ecumenism that Dr.

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Joel Beeky is expressing through not only his own selections of places where he preaches, but even what he is publishing through Reformation Heritage books.

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They are not only those from the Dutch Reformed wing of the Reformation, but they are now including a lot of Reformed Baptists, which

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I happen to be a part of. So I'm very delighted to see that kind of healthy ecumenism in a biblical sense there.

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Good. We have to go to our first break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is

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ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away.

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God willing, we'll be right back with Dr. Tim J .R. Trumper after these messages from our sponsors.

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Pastor's Study by calling in with your questions. Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

36:16

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the Pastor's Study, because everyone needs a pastor.

36:23

Welcome back, and that was another Orthodox Presbyterian that is no stranger to our listeners here at Iron Trip and Zion Radio, my dear friend

36:31

Pastor Bill Shishko, formerly the pastor of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square, New York, now retired and running the

36:42

Reformation Metro New York Parachurch Organization, where he is a domestic missionary, and that is under the oversight of the

36:51

Orthodox Presbyterian denomination, and I urge you to listen and call in to Bill's show every

36:59

Saturday, 12 noon to 1 pm Eastern Time, www .wlie540am

37:04

.com on the internet via live streaming, or if you live in the New York tri -state area, you could actually tune in on the radio on the

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AM dial at 540 AM every Saturday, 12 noon to 1 pm, and in fact it goes even to parts of Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, and Massachusetts on the 540

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AM dial during those hours of 12 noon to 1 pm Eastern Time on 540

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AM on the dial. But we are now back with Dr. Tim J .R. Trumper, founder and president of From His Fullness Ministries.

37:38

We are discussing a reformed outreach to the unchurched introducing the international outreach publication

37:45

The Way, or El Camino in Spanish. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

37:55

chrisarnson at gmail .com. And the, well let's see, we have a question from CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who says,

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I know that the description of your topic today is reaching the unchurched.

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About what percentage of the world that you're aware of, or at least the areas where you have missionary outreach, are the citizens unchurched?

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And what kind of reaction do typically these types of folks have to the gospel?

38:28

I believe in my own experience, an unchurched person might have less of a hard heart than a person who is entrenched in a specific religion that is false.

38:42

Well, thank you very much, CJ. I think that's a very good question. I wouldn't know how much of the world is unchurched.

38:51

I certainly think, broadly defined, the numbers of Christians in the world is very encouraging, but that doesn't mean to say that they are actually regenerate.

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But I certainly agree with you that the unchurched can be softer -hearted than the religious or the church, because I think an element of pride enters into the church, who may put their trust in the external rituals of the church, but not have a vital relationship with Jesus Christ.

39:25

And when, through the preaching of the gospel, you unearth that fact, then they either embrace the gospel or they really react against it, and that is the story of much of the

39:35

New Testament, both in the Gospels and in the Book of Acts. So, in some senses, my concern with the unchurched is to get beyond, and to help

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Reformed believers get beyond the four walls of their church premises, and to reach those who have only heard of the gospel by hearsay, only know of the

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Christian church by hearsay, who may have had grandparents who are connected to the church but have lost contact with the church, or who never had contact with it.

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And so the way is aimed at the thinking unchurched, because we're told that the

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Millennials growing up are very dissatisfied with clichéd or potted answers to the serious questions that they have, and so I think we're trying to give serious answers to serious questions.

40:35

And although the way is not a publication of apologetics, it nevertheless seeks to give a reasoned and an intelligent presentation of the gospel to those who are ready or willing to at least read about it.

40:54

I mean, one of the elements of pushback I've had with regard to the way is, well, people won't read it.

41:02

Well, I firmly believe, as a Calvinist, that God has a people out there who he's going to bring to himself, and that whether the way is well done or poorly done is a secondary issue to presenting the gospel and presenting it as winsomely and as intelligently and as attractively in terms of the presentation of the way as we can, and that there are those who, behind closed doors, will read something in a way in which they might not in public.

41:37

They will hide behind a persona in public, but in private, they may well give the way more of a hearing than they would the gospel otherwise.

41:48

You know, you said something interesting about Millennials, that I first heard something similar maybe a year or two ago that surprised me.

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I had heard from at least two of my guests who do a lot of evangelical outreach to the

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Millennials, and some on college campuses and so on, and what surprised me was that the

42:19

Millennials, these individuals were trying not to broad brush because, of course, there's exception to rules, but they were saying that a significant number of Millennials are repulsed or repelled away from seeker -sensitive type churches.

42:36

You might think that the opposite was true, but they seem to view that as a slick public relations marketing team's approach to really trick people into church and lure them in.

42:56

They seem to see through that in great numbers and are turned away from that, and ironically, a good number of them are being drawn into more traditional worship services and so on.

43:08

I'm assuming since you said just a few minutes ago, you might have some agreement with that.

43:14

Yes, I think I do, and would go also to say, and this is part of the philosophy behind the way, and I trust it's biblical philosophy, that the

43:23

Millennial who's willing to give church a go, so as to speak, is not necessarily going to be convinced by the man at the front.

43:36

They are very suspicious of authority figures, and so they want to know, do the people who are in the pews really believe what is being said from the pulpit, and are they really living out what is said?

43:52

And so my thinking behind the way is that by engaging the people of God, and not simply the minister, or what they call in the

44:01

Continental Reformed tradition, the dominee, by engaging the people of God in this outreach, we may help people see who are skeptical about church, that there's an awful lot of authentic faith and Christian living in the pews, and the way can give them an opening to speak about their faith, and to engage others with it, so that the

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Millennial can see on ground level that there is such a thing as authentic Christianity.

44:36

But the way in isolation is going to accomplish very little. I think it needs to be followed up by hospitality, it needs to be followed up by open homes, and a welcoming

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Christian community. So it's not churches and ministries or individuals sending out the way, and then saying,

44:56

I've done my bit. No, if there's follow -up, if there's a response to the way, then the ground needs to be prepared to receive people who are coming from all sorts of broken backgrounds, racially different backgrounds, and we need an atmosphere of grace and reception to minister to them.

45:18

We have a listener in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, Harrison, who says,

45:25

I just tuned in, but I think it might be wise for your guest to distinguish and contrast his publication, known as The Way, from a major cult of the same name.

45:37

Yes, I don't know if you're aware, there is a cult called The Way, I think it's even called The Way International, are you familiar with that? No, I'm not, actually,

45:44

I'm not. But when I thought of the title, of course, the title The Way was first used in terms of this publication by Seventh Reformed Church.

45:54

I couldn't think, when we started, from its fullness of a better title, to be honest. Remember in the first century that the

46:01

Christians were called people of the way. John 14, 6, I am the way, the truth, and the life.

46:08

And I thought this is a subtle or not so subtle way of saying, here we stand,

46:14

Jesus is the way, and we're going to speak about him, promote him, and we're going to be unabashed about doing that.

46:21

But no, I did not know that, but it's a similar situation we have with the rainbow.

46:27

Are we going to give up all reference to the rainbow simply because the LGBTQ community has co -opted it?

46:34

Right. Or are we going to do what Ken Ham is doing and say, no, we're going to take back the rainbow? Right.

46:40

So that would be my response. We can't afford to give up the idea that Jesus is the way because some other group, be they heretical or I don't know, don't know anything about them.

46:51

Right. And just like there are heretical groups using the terms free grace now, and of course that's a precious term that Calvinists have historically used, and you have many liberal mainline churches going under the name

47:10

Reformed, it doesn't mean we're going to throw out that because of the fact of the way it's being used in many circumstances.

47:18

So I can completely understand what you're saying. But I guess it's... Satan is a great mimic, you know, and it's a backhanded compliment if the

47:28

Christian church is teaching something and he tries to mimic it. But I think we need to press on and speak authentically and in a biblically reliable way.

47:40

Yes. And the way actually has a sore spot with me because my nephew's wife, who passed away probably a decade or more ago, but there was a bit of a tug of war over her soul going on with a local

48:04

Orthodox Presbyterian church up in Schenectady, New York, that I had referred my niece to, and they were being very wonderful and loving and reaching out to her.

48:14

And there was also the local way group that was trying to seduce her into their group, and it was kind of an uncomfortable situation.

48:24

But thank you anyway for your comment there. Let's see, who was that that just...

48:31

Harrison. Harrison in Mechanicsburg. You have a better memory than I do. And keep listening to Iron Trip and Zion Radio and spreading the word there in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, and beyond.

48:43

Let's see here, we have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who asks,

48:51

I know that there's disagreement amongst Reformed churches and parachurch ministries and individuals on the use of labels.

49:01

There are some people who would agree with our theology nearly 100%, if not completely, who prefer not to be known as Reformed or Calvinistic.

49:11

What is the approach that the Way and your other ministry,

49:16

From His Fullness, take in regard to this type of approach of the use or non -use of labels?

49:23

Well, I think that's also a very good question. I believe the caller was Arnie. Well, with regard to From His Fullness, I describe us as a

49:32

Reformed ministry, because you have to have a doctrinal stance, and you have to say what you are.

49:44

And so my own affiliation is to the scriptures, as summarized by the

49:51

Westminster Confession of All the Three Forms of Unity. But I'm very much in this age of the opinion given by James Packer, I can't locate the source, but this is what

50:08

I believe he said, that we ought to be Bible Calvinists first before we're system Calvinists. And I would see myself very much as a

50:15

Bible Calvinist, that the scriptures are our foundation, and we teach the scriptures, and the doctrine flows from that, rather than coming at the scriptures with a system, and trying to prove at every point that the system is biblical.

50:34

So yes, From His Fullness Ministries is a Reformed, and I trust a Reforming ministry, but the emphasis is upon global outreach, and global training of ministers for the work of the gospel in their

50:50

Indigenous context. And the same would go for the

50:55

Way. While the Reformed faith is implicit throughout the

51:00

Way, you won't find me talking about the Reformed faith. I'm not trying to make people Reformed, I'm trying to call them to turn to God and to believe in the

51:09

Lord Jesus Christ. So there are evangelistic magazines out there that are not

51:18

Reformed, and they might come through the doorway, and it's pretty clear that they're not Reformed, but they're trying to share the gospel.

51:27

But I think there's a niche, and I don't want to use a market term, I'm just saying I think there's a gap in terms of ministry for churches and ministries to use a publication like the

51:39

Way, which is reliable theologically, but is still trying to connect with people where they are at today.

51:47

So the first issue dealt with the World Cup, and the next issue will deal with the global culture of death.

51:55

And we're going to talk about how death, although it's meant to be a taboo, there is a demand for death today.

52:03

And what does the Bible say about that in terms of Jesus being the light of the world? And then there's a testimony to go along with that of somebody who lived in difficult circumstances, but lived out the gospel because of the light that was found in Jesus Christ.

52:21

Now did you say there's a demand for death, D -E -A -T -H? Yes. And if you could, when we return,

52:27

I'd like you to pick up on that. Yeah, sure. And be more detailed with that. Because we have to go to our midway break right now.

52:35

And this is the part of the program where there is an elongated break because of the requirements of Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

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FM in Lake City, Florida. They require a longer break in between our two major segments because they air their own commercials and public service announcements.

52:51

So please be patient as we have this elongated break, and use this time to not only write questions for Dr.

52:59

Tim J. R. Trumper, our guest today, on the issue of introducing the international outreach publication

53:06

The Way or El Camino, more specifically, Reformed Outreach to the Unchurched.

53:12

If you could send in a question to chrisarnson at gmail .com. In fact, since Dr.

53:20

Trumper has been a pastor, we will open up questions to pastoral issues.

53:26

And I can understand if you want to remain anonymous for questions like that, we would welcome them. But the email again is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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But also take this time during this elongated break to write down information provided by our advertisers.

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But don't go away. God willing, we're going to be right back with Dr. Tim J. R. Trumper right after these messages from our sponsors.

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that's chrisarnson at gmail .com Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read he who never quotes will never be quoted he will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own you need to read solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart the mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world since its beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ exalting books for all ages we invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com

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that's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from solid ground solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio hi i'm pastor bill shishko inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study every saturday from 12 noon to 1 pm eastern time on wlie radio www .wlie540am

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.com we bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions our time will be lively useful and i assure you never dull join us this saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor hi i'm buzz taylor frequent co -host with chris arnson on iron sharpens iron radio i would like to introduce you to my good friends todd and patty jennings at cvbbs which stands for cumberland valley bible book service todd and patty specialize in supplying reformed and puritan books and bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone since 1987 the family -owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available christian books and bibles at the best possible prices unlike other book sites they make no effort to provide every book that is available because frankly much of what is being printed is not worth your time that means you can get to the good stuff faster it also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic heretical and otherwise faith insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors their website is cvbbs .com

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that's cvbbs .com let todd and patty know that you heard about them on iron sharpens iron radio and you could also call cvbbs .com

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at their toll -free number 800 -656 -0231 800 -656 -0231 and please mention that you heard about them from chris arnzen on iron sharpens iron radio if you mention this program and purchase at least fifty dollars you will get uh free shipping on your purchase of fifty dollars or more and you'll also receive for free the book the holy spirit by aw pink all absolutely free by mentioning chris arnzen of iron sharpens iron radio and also by purchasing at least fifty dollars worth of merchandise before we return to our discussion with dr tim jr trumper on a reformed outreach to the unchurched introducing the international outreach publication the way or el camino in spanish before we return to that discussion we just have a few very important announcements to make uh first of all next week on iron sharpens iron radio what am i saying not next week i'm talking about this week uh this week on iron sharpens iron radio starting tomorrow we have dr stephen j wellum returning to the program who is going to be discussing the book the son of god incarnate the doctrine of christ that will be the part two of the discussion on that that we already began last tuesday so there is such a depth of information in this book that we required at least a second interview on it and we may have him back for several more interviews because it's a i think it's nearly 500 pages long this book uh the god the son of god incarnate the doctrine of christ that's tomorrow 4 to 6 p .m

01:08:11

eastern on iron trip design radio then we have nancy snyder joining us on wednesday to discuss the gospel for moving targets helping active children grow in grace and then on thursday we have john sampson pastor of the king's church chapel or i think it's just called king's chapel in peoria arizona and he is going to be discussing seven deceptions of the charismatic movement that's this thursday and then on friday we have dr morris roberts of the banner of truth returning to the iron sharpens iron program and uh we all we i just learned that we have our our guest is got cut off so i'm going to ask him to call back uh well i i and i hopefully we have dr trumper back on the line are you there dr trumper yes i am okay we just have to continue making a couple of announcements here um as i was saying we have morris roberts the former editor of banner of truth magazine joining us uh this friday uh on the program that's july 27th so i hope that you continue listening all week long because of the fact that we have these excellent guests on the broadcast uh now we have also coming up august 2nd through the 4th uh we want you to know about the alliance of confessing evangelicals uh actually i'm sorry that's a different event that i'll tell you about in a second the the event that's at august 2nd through the 4th is the fellowship conference new england and that's being held at the deering center community church in portland maine and the speakers at that include uh tim conway mark tomlinson mac tomlinson jesse barrington and nate pickowitz if you'd like more information on registering for this conference go to fellowship conference new england .com

01:10:14

fellowship conference new england .com and then coming up in november the event that i was just starting to tell you about the alliance of confessing evangelicals is having their annual quaker town conference on reform theology this year it will be on the theme the glory of the cross speakers include david garner ray ortlund richard phillips timothy gibson and carlton wynn if you'd like to register for this event which will be held at the grace bible fellowship church in quaker town pennsylvania november 9th and the 10th go to alliancenet .org

01:10:45

alliancenet .org then coming up in january i mentioned it at the beginning of the program today but the g3 conference i look forward to this conference like a little kid on christmas the g3 conference i will be manning my third exhibitors booth at the g3 conference there in college park georgia and this january the theme is the mission of god and this is going to be a tremendous lineup once again the the speakers include paul washer dr conrad and bayway who i mentioned before john piper uh we have uh phil johnson the executive director of grace to you the ministry of john macarthur we have todd friel of wretched tv and wretched radio uh we have uh steven uh jay nichols who is the president of reformation bible college the college founded by rc sproul and ligonier ministries and the list goes on and on and on it's a very long list of speakers if you care to join me at the g3 conference go to g3 conference .com

01:11:59

g3 conference .com and i urge you not only to register for attendance but if you have a ministry or a parachurch organization or business where you want to be present in this crowd of four to five thousand people i would strongly urge you to go to g3 conference .com

01:12:19

and register for an exhibitors booth as well please always tell anybody that you're responding to as far as the ads you hear on this program please tell them all that you heard about these ads from chris arnzen on iron sharpens iron radio and now comes uh to the least favorite portion of the show if you want this show to remain on the air i've got to beg you for money and i hate doing it but it's got to be done uh if you love the show you listen to it daily if you share the mp3s with others please consider donating to us so that we don't disappear go to ironsharpensironradio .com

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that says advertising in the subject line we would help love to help you launch an ad campaign as long as whatever it is you're promoting is not uh competitive with the theology we express on this program as long as you are compatible with what we believe we would love to help you launch an ad campaign keep in mind when it comes to donating to iron sharpens iron radio never siphon money away from the regular giving you're accustomed to to your local church and if you're not a member of a local church and you're not looking for one you are living in rebellion against god please email me if you need help finding a local church at chris arnzen at gmail .com

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01:14:33

click support and click click to donate now we are now back with our discussion with dr tim jr trumper and we are discussing a reformed outreach to the unchurched introducing the international outreach publication the way or el camino in spanish and if you'd like join us with a question of your own our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

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chris arnzen at gmail .com and we do have a listener in kinross scotland uh we have murray in kinross scotland who says congratulations on a well present presented publication which i am sure the lord will bless with the first issue of the way featuring the world cup and the follow -up to consider death are you consciously addressing issues in the way that can have a worldwide appeal rather than just in the u .s

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and his p .s question is perhaps you could remind us how whales got on at the world cup well thank you thank you murray uh um obviously they didn't get to the world cup but uh did pretty well at the european championships i seem to recall getting to the semi -final but we do look forward to a day when england the whales are fighting it out at the world cup again but uh but thanks for your question murray um wonderful question uh again let me speak a little bit about the background of of the way um the idea initially was to send out the master copy that churches and ministries and individuals can customize for their own use but i advertised it on the facebook and social media and i had an astonishing response i targeted you know in terms of the facebook advertising uh evangelicals protestants reformed churches and amazingly i got a response from muslims from africa and nepal and different religions around the world so quickly i had them to construct or compile what i call the general copy which isn't customized which is more security conscious but when i got those requests for the way it made me realize just how global the way could become so i think it was very um very uh providential that the world cup was occurring right at the time that uh the way was beginning and that gave us a good um avenue to start off with something global but there's nothing more global than death either um so that's what we're dealing with the second issue but i am conscious of trying to pick themes which are in the global news not simply local or national news the uh the upcoming issue on death was really provoked by the celebrations in ireland of the right to abort and uh that made me think through just how impactful is the the culture of death today and um uh so we deal with the fact that everybody dies we deal with the fact that there is in michigan what's called cryogenics of people paying 28 000 to freeze their body in the hope that their uh ailment will be cured they can be brought back to life and then also we're dealing with uh suicide the push for euthanasia suicide bombing and all these ways in which and of course the great the great example of our day uh 1 .5

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million abort a billion abortions since since 1980 worldwide so it's it's it's a global issue and we'll be looking for more global issues to take into account that uh the readership is is scattered across different nations well thank you marie and ken ross scotland please continue listening to the program there and spreading the word about iron sharpens iron radio in scotland and the uk and beyond uh well as i requested even though murray brought it up in his own question uh the the issue about death uh and you uh already obviously mentioned the various reasons why the issue on death was written but if you could also now give us more detail in how you approach this subject well basically as i've said the the template is the same each issue to date and that is the point of contact on the first page so what i meant was uh obviously you're going to be giving some kind of a rebuke to those wicked people involved in maintaining and promoting the infanticide industry and that kind of thing but what i mean is what in your content are you going to be saying or did you say i should say to approach this issue in regard to bringing people to repentance you know and so on well well as i said the first page seeks to draw people in and that this this is relevant to to all people and so i start speaking about how sex as a taboo has really been replaced by death but death as a taboo has spectacularly failed on the one hand because we all die and on the other hand because so many people are being put to death in one way or another and so i just paint the picture and at the end of the opening article i tend to give uh just a one statement or a biblical text drawing them towards the gospel and then if they open it up then i give a sort of biblical review what does the bible say about issues of death and the second page begins by saying if you think this issue of the way is dark then you're right it's the reality as we find it today and go into what the bible says about the theme of darkness and and the connection between darkness and sin and the contrast that jesus christ brings as the light of the world and how he himself spoke in john 10 that the devil as the thief comes to kill steal and destroy but i've come that you may have life and have it more abundantly and then at the end of the second page i sort of give a a teaser for the testimony that's coming and um this testimony uh we're we're open to receiving testimonies of 600 words with a a cover photo a headshot of those who are in um good standing in a church who are ideally reformed but um who can speak of what god has done in their lives and i i wrote in this upcoming edition of the way my father's testimony he was um somebody who was born and brought up in a christian home he uh made records as a young man he was a head choir boy at sandef cathedral in cardiff and he saw the hypocrisy of formalized religion so by the time he um was through his teens he'd become an atheist he was heading into the world he went to drama college there he met anthony hopkins uh but he was converted in in drama college and how he eventually left the theater became a minister and then i talk about how he died and how he died with hope and how his confidence based on psalm 31 my times are in uh thy hands um basically saying john wesley's words that our people die well is still true for those who are in christ and then on the final page there's there's a prayer concerning the material that's in the way encouraging people to pray for themselves that they may have a relationship with god and then in the master copy there's a spare panel whereby churches can upload what's happening in their church and then they can send it out either by hard copy and the directions for doing that are on our website from its fullness .com

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and they can if that's too expensive upload it to their own website or send it out in an email distribution great and uh what i'd like you to do now before we go to our final break uh i want to make sure that you have addressed or highlighted the specific areas of your ministry that you most want our audience to know about before we move on because i don't want to have i don't want to keep taking listener questions and overlook some of the things that you perhaps might want to most highlight well i i appreciate that chris um specifically speaking about the the way i think i'd like to speak about how the way can help your church or your ministry and just say that it enables um churches to be more of a presence in their community it raises the consciousness of the congregation of the importance of outreach that it's not an option it's it's uh something that should be a burning desire in our hearts it um it offers the church a reformed source that is relevant and we pray that people will be saved through it but we also need people's help to make the world the way a viable a viable resource for the church and so i'm really asking people to engage their church leaderships about this opportunity it's free to the church it's free to a ministry it's free to an individual you can distribute your own copy if you're seeking to send it out through a church you'll probably need a coordinator to customize the back page with ministries evangelistic ministries going on from your church certainly we're praying for additional translators to come forward we have a marvelous uh young student theological student alejandro guayado who's translating it into spanish and we're looking for translators into french and i say french because we've had a lot of feedback from french speaking africans but also mandarin and many other languages so um and also to be creating atmospheres in your church where um those who come from the community are welcome that they feel that they're not threatened when they come and we'd also gladly receive testimonies of what god has been doing in individualized to to publish those in the in the way great well we're going to be taking our final break it's going to be a much more brief uh break than the last one but i don't want to interrupt dr trumper in mid -sentence so i'm going to take it right now and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

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chris arnzen at gmail .com don't go away we'll be right back with dr tim jr trumper right after these messages from our sponsor iron sharpens iron radio is sponsored by harvey cedars a year -round bible conference and retreat center nestled on the jersey shore harvey cedars offers a wide range of accommodations to suit groups up to 400 for generations christians have enjoyed gathering and growing at harvey cedars each year thousands of high school and college students come and learn more about god's word an additional 9 000 come annually to harvey cedars as families couples singles men women pastors seniors and missionaries 90 miles from new york city 70 miles from philly and 95 miles from wilmington and easily accessible scores of notable christian groups frequently planned conferences at harvey cedars like the navigators intervarsity christian fellowship campus crusade and the alliance of confessing evangelicals find harvey cedars on facebook or at hcbible .org

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hcbible .org call 609 -494 -5689 609 -494 -5689 harvey cedars where christ finds people and changes lives hi i'm pastor bill shishko inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study every saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m

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we bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions our time will be lively useful and i assure you never dull join us this saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor chris arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio here i want to tell you about a man i have personally known for many years his name is dan buttafuoco dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer but not the type that typically comes to mind dan cares about people and as a theologian himself recently he wrote a book titled consider the evidence for the bible ravi zacharias wrote the foreword dan also has a master's degree in theology dan handles serious injury and malpractice cases in all 50 states he represents many christians in serious injury matters all over the country dan is an exceptional trial lawyer he wrote the test for the national board of trial advocacy and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for 1 million dollars or more and in approximately 10 different states in illinois his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history in new york his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the law journal if you have a serious personal injury or malpractice claim in any state i recommend that you call dan today consultations are free there is no fee unless you win his number is 1 -800 -669 -4878 1 -800 -669 -4878 or email me for his contact information at chris arnzen at gmail .com

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that's chris arnzen at gmail .com charles headens burgeon once said give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read he who never quotes will never be quoted he will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own you need to read solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart the mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world since it's beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ exalting books for all ages we invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com

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that's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from solid ground solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio and please remember to continue to pray for the founder of solid ground christian books my dear friend mike gadosh my very first pastor as a born -again believer in the 1980s a man who's remained my dear friend through thick and thin all of these years since and who has been diagnosed with some very serious life -threatening heart problems that require a very complicated surgery so please pray for him please pray for the decision he makes on whom will perform the surgery because even his own doctor is referring him to another doctor out of state who has more experience with this very complicated delicate heart surgery so please also pray obviously that the great physician jesus christ himself will not only guide the surgeon's hands very meticulously and carefully as the surgery is performed but that he would raise up mike gadosh from that hospital bed a stronger and more physically healthy than ever before and more importantly even more spiritually healthy than ever before as an ambassador for christ as a result of this trial that he has been through and continues to face at this moment so please pray for mike gadosh of solid -ground -books .com

01:32:21

we are now back with our friend and our guest today dr tim jr trumper founder and president of from his fullness ministries and we are discussing a reformed outreach to the unchurched introducing the international outreach publication the way or el camino in spanish and our email address if you'd like to join us on the air is chris arnzen at gmail .com

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chris arnzen at gmail .com and we have a listener uh let's see here we have uh christopher in suffolk county long island new york who asks in your experience as a missionary a minister and an evangelist have you received more hostile response towards the true gospel from unbelievers or from anti -calvinists oh um well we are so blessed in the west really um to receive so little uh persecution um but that's not necessarily all to be seen as a blessing it can be uh just widespread indifference the negative responses i recall have been on the one hand in churches from those who have been touched by the holy spirit and really react negatively to to what they've heard um i remember preaching the gospel in london on one occasion and a man walked out of the service at the end and he dragged me to one side and he pointed at the pulpit and he said these sheep may take that but i'm not taking it wow and actually um i was uh i was really encouraged by that response because i went to that service quite disheartened that i was preaching the gospel in an itinerant capacity during my student days and saw little little fruit for it a little reaction positive or negative and so the lord used that reaction to um to encourage me that people are listening that people are responding whether verbally or not another instance comes to mind um being involved in um a friendship evangelism in a country in the middle east and giving a copy of the new testament out in a restaurant and somebody took the copy of the new testament to the back of the restaurant to somebody in the kitchen and he came chasing me down the street with a knife in his hand wow muslim so there are different responses and um i i would say on in that regard that i've seen more response negative response or hostile response from religious people whatever their religion than uh non -religious people i think some non -religious people are actually quite intrigued as to somebody why somebody would be a christian in this day and age and it gives you an opportunity to just speak and give a reason for the hope that lies within you without sometimes without interruption great well thank you christopher and suffolk county long island to keep listening to the program and spreading the word about it in new york and beyond uh let's see here we have let's see we have bob in hartsdale new york and bob asks what are the most significant stereotypes that you need to overcome regarding the doctrines of sovereign grace when attempting to minister to those not only locally in the united states but also abroad well i think in terms of the western world pride is the the great obstacle to to the doctrines of sovereign grace because it so puts an axe to the root of of our pride the thought that we cannot be in christ unless we are called chosen before the foundation of the world called in jesus christ united to christ by the spirit so that we come to the conclusion as the scripture says that salvation is of the lord entirely and fully and not none of us either partially or at all in terms of ministering further afield i find that there's not really much hostility in fact i've been in conversation recently about our mission trips to africa next year and the africans tend to say well whatever your theology is we affirm it and you sort of raises a bit of a red flag yeah so i said well do you do you know anything about the reformed faith because that's what i'm going to be teaching through the scriptures um well no we don't actually but we're willing to listen to you so i said okay um well if you're content that that's what i'll be teaching then i'm more than willing to come and teach it so that's that's exciting actually to come into situations where they don't have a knowledge of the reformed faith they don't have the background so much of africa is watching the trinity broadcast network and that's all they've been exposed to so the opportunity to give another perspective on the theology of the scriptures is is very welcome amen uh let's see here we have susan margaret in dauphin county pennsylvania who says that i have many friends in the charismatic and pentecostal movement and a number of them are very sound theologically in spite my differences with them so i am not intending to slander them in any way shape or form but i have heard the man that you have mentioned earlier conrad and bayway on chris arnzen show conrad and bayway has said that the charismatic movement in africa makes the charismatic movement in the united states look like child's play because of the severity of the dangers involved in the african form of the charismatic movement which even mixes pagan animism and other types of witchcraft practices with the charismatic faith i was just wondering what your personal experience has been in regard to charismatics in africa well when i've been to africa i've been ministering in reformed churches but i'm due to go to kenya in august and september and one of the courses i'm teaching to pastors from south sudan is african church history and it's been very illuminating because um as christianity has spread in in africa against the backdrop of the traditional religions uh the africans have often been faced with a choice of turning to islam or turning to christianity and as the commentators note sometimes they they sort of form a syncretism between the traditional religion and islam or the traditional religion and christianity so you know dr mberry is a is an authority on what's going on in africa and i can fully understand why he is concerned about the extremes on the african continent and seeking to expose those through the proclamation of the world because there are some really outlandish things going on which um bring the christian faith into disrepute it's interesting that um last year was the first year on record that there are more christians in africa broadly defined for sure than any other continent in the world wow even north america yeah uh 631 million broadly defined broadly defined so i think there's 277 million in north north america supposedly 571 million in europe now again i want to stress that those broadly defined that would involve catholics that would involve all sorts of uh different traditions which we wouldn't agree with but it is interesting to note the phenomenal growth of christianity in africa over the last century um through much persecution but by the same token there's a huge need for biblical teaching there's a huge need to promote the gospel by means of the scripture the word and the spirit rather than carnal tricks and so forth and syncretism of um of traditional religion and when i've been in zambia they've been wrestling with this because when it comes to a wedding for instance you know how much of the wedding is christian and how much is the pressure from the families to bring in traditional um traditional african religion elements into the worship and i think the reform movement in zambia has been trying to work to distinguish christianity from uh from the traditional religion so i i would very much defer to uh brother conrad's perspective on that now having said that i would assume that there are benign innocuous uh cultural ethnic traditions that christians may freely import into their wedding celebrations and other things that do not in any way violate a biblical principle or introduce some kind of idolatrous or pagan aspect into the into the celebration there are you know the typical wedding ceremony in the united states i'm sure there are things that we don't even know about that may be behind the symbolism that are purely of cultural or ethnic import rather than biblical but if you could comment on that yes i think that's very important to say chris none of us work out the christian faith in a vacuum from our own cultures and it's one thing for us to say well the african church has this struggle of operating christianity outside the culture of traditional religion but we have our own blind spots as well and it's also been difficult for missionaries to know what is culturally neutral and what is a biblical principle so in preparing for this course on african church history i've been reading all about how the missionaries struggled to know what to bar from traditional african religions and what to simply let go so for instance there was a practice when an african bride got married to sit on the lap of her father and to sit on the lap of her mother as a symbol of her dedication to her parents that although she was going to go out and get married she was always going to honor the family from which he came and there were some attempts by missionaries to to um to curtail that tradition well that's something that's morally neutral and actually is kind of beautiful if you ask me yeah yeah that's right and to give another example the missionaries struggled with the concept in africa of circular homes because they came from european homes that were rectangular and the chief in this particular instance tried to explain to the missionary we have circular homes so that there is no near and far to our family relations within the house we're all together but the missionaries were frowning on the circular homes because it wasn't part of their culture now how long ago was this this protest to circular homes well this this would be in the last century okay this that's a bizarre thing to protest yeah so but we can sympathize with the missionaries in some senses they were working out missiology on the field in real time and so it's easy for us to look back and say what were they thinking but if we went into virgin territory to spread the gospel unaware of the blinkers that we have then we might make some of the same mistakes but i think the lesson for us is to be very well aware that each of us has our own cultural packaging of the christian faith and to keep bringing our traditions back to the light of scripture excellent uh we have uh let's see we have john in bangor maine who says i don't want to take you too far afield of your topic today but i was wondering what your eschatology is the reason i ask is because i think that the optimism versus pessimism of one's eschatology may affect his outreach globally well that's a good question john um well with regard to eschatology whether one is pre -mill one is a mill one is optimistic a mill whether one is post mill that does i i do agree that that does affect the confidence with which you spread the gospel but the bottom line is we have a great commission the bottom line is that there are people groups yet to hear the gospel uh the bottom line is that it has been given to the church to go and reach forth with the gospel and so in some senses i hang loose to eschatology in that sense um whether i am optimistic about the ability of the way to reach the unchurched or pessimistic about it my confidence as a calvinist is that god has a people out there he's going to save them and he uses means to do so and i want to be part of that obedience to the great commission i heard many years ago now back in wales an elder praying in a prayer meeting asking god to draw out his elect from the town and that really struck me at the time and it's a prayer i've adopted that wherever we are in our neighborhoods in our communities in our towns our nations that god would draw out his elect and he's going to do it and i think that is exciting whether we are in an area of the world where there are many elect or or not and we just keep our eyes open for what god is doing and faithfully sow the seed of the word and watch out for the seed that falls on the good soil and brings forth fruit 30 fold 60 fold 100 fold amen uh you what you're saying reminds me of an arminian or should i say a predominantly uh non -calvinistic denomination uh who has developed a notorious reputation of yanking people off of the mission field prematurely because they are impatient as to the number of uh salvation cards signed uh altar call responses and all that kind of thing things that reform people typically don't do uh but it shows you that um that historically anyway i mean things may be turning around for the worst but historically reformed missionaries and those that have sent the missionaries have been more patient with them because they trust in the very thing that you have mentioned that the elect are from out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation and therefore even if this is virgin territory where a missionary is being sent meaning that it has been uh unevangelized adequately and has very little gospel presence and there is much opposition especially initially to the missionaries endeavors uh they are typically more patient because the the fruits that are born from that the the increase that is given from the planting and watering the increase increase that god brings about may not even happen within the lifetime of those missionaries exactly exactly yes you you look at the movers and shakers at the beginning of the modern missionary movement i think of william carey you know my only genius is that i applaud right you think of henry martin men who went to the mission field and saw very little fruit during their lifetime but they they laid a foundation for what was to come but i i think especially in our age of celebrity culture where we don't necessarily want to be uh the people digging up the soil we don't necessarily want to be the people sowing the seed we want to be the reapers because the reapers get the glory and uh at least from a supposedly uh human perspective or a human perspective a fleshly perspective but i think it's the body of christ working together some planting some sowing some reaping and we just need to be faithful and patient too like you say amen uh we have uh let's see here uh we have terence in west islip long island new york who asks when you do your global evangelism is it often done to the english -speaking individuals in those foreign countries or are there interpreters and translations of written material yes uh well we're blessed to be able to speak the english language since it is in uh the 20th and 21st centuries the global language um rivaled by chinese of course or mandarin and spanish as well but english enables us to go so many places but um a lot of the time i work through translators that requires good translators sometimes it's a little bit frustrating that you can't express yourself as you would like to express yourself and you don't necessarily know how the translation is coming through but it's a very manageable way of communicating and um it's a privilege to do that the uh the instance that sticks in my mind was actually um preaching in in china mainland china and uh i didn't have one translator i had two translators and i thought if ever i'm going to get caught in a heresy trial this is going to be it because i was preaching my preaching my sermon then it was translated into mandarin then it was translated into the local dialect i don't know what's coming out the other end but i started off orthodox were these christian translators uh as far as i know okay um yeah but uh a you know it is it is a manageable way of of going about things and it's it's certainly better than better than nothing uh let's try to give an if i may give another illustration yeah sure something that was really exciting um a year or two ago speaking in turkey and the course i was asked to teach was biblical theology but they didn't have the term for biblical theology and so as we made our way through the week of 20 hours teaching through translation these young brothers enthusiastic brothers were putting together um a theological dictionary in turkish of the terms that were coming out as we were doing the course and i hope that gets published in in time to come for the sake of the turkish church wow we are in fact going to be interviewing for the second time a missionary in turkey who writes under the pseudonym james wright w -r -i -g -h -t and so i'm looking forward to that and i'll make sure i let you know about that when we we have that brother back on the program um well we have time for one more question i think uh let's see here we have a christian in cumberland county pennsylvania and christian asks the question let's see it's a very long question i want to try to mentally edit some of this out here for us uh i let me see here i uh typically give away to unbelievers a very popular and excellent booklet called ultimate questions and i was wondering if you recommend this booklet as well and if you have other things to recommend that are quick and easy to read and inexpensive to purchase in great quantities well i think ultimate questions is the go -to for those criteria that's by john blanchard uh who has written a number of booklets of similar size on very important issues but that's that's the primary one about the gospel and about all things that are important really well the value of the value of it is that it's in so many languages now and uh it is uh attractively produced by evangelical press it's uh it's something that we have um in the first edition of the way and in the second edition issue of the way we're we're promoting uh john blanchard's booklet um it's a long time now since he he produced that um i've used it going back to 1994 1995 um studying in germany and used it in what we call it sprach tandem whereby you have a partner and uh the partner is learning english and you're learning german so i suggested ultimate questions as a way in which we could do that but uh the one hang up i have about ultimate questions is that it goes into so much about creation i think when you come to act 17 paul is very adamant that god created the heavens and the earth and personally speaking i don't have a problem with believing that god did that in six days six days as we count them today i don't have a problem with that on the understanding that what he created was created in a state of maturity but when it comes to outreach and that partner relationship ended when we got to that bit about creation not so much about the creation itself but the fact that it took six days to do it but when you come to paul's uh presentation of the gospel to the athenians he doesn't go into how god did it it's the that which demonstrates that man is accountable to god and so i personally would uh recommend not making the length of the process in which it took god to create the world a major point in evangelism what is critical is that god created the heavens and the earth by the way i do have another booklet to recommend but it's currently out of print uh but todd jennings one of the owners of cvbbs .com

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cumberland valley bible book service he wrote his own booklet called the big picture joel beakey actually wrote a wonderful commendation for it uh if you keep going to cvbbs .com

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and prodding todd jennings to get that back into print uh perhaps he will do so but they they have already sold out of all their copies it's a similar size and expense of the ultimate questions but we are out of time now dr trumper and i want to make sure that our listeners have all of your contact information i know that the from his fullness website is from his fullness .com

01:58:41

that's from his fullness .com and the little farms chapel orthodox presbyterian church website is little farms chapel .org

01:58:51

little farms chapel .org and we might as well give a plug to the seventh reform church in grand rapids michigan that's seventh ref .org

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and seventh is spelled with a number seven th ref .org do you have any other contact information that you care to give yes to sign up for the way all you need to do is send me an email at from his fullness out mail not gmail just mail .com