May 3, 2019 Show with Samuel M. Frost on “Are Hyper-preterists Our Brethren in Christ? When Eschatology Becomes a Matter of Salvation”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this third day of May 2019.

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And I am thrilled to have a returning guest today who is going to be speaking on a very serious and important issue, not that we don't typically have serious and important issues on the program, but this is an issue that may be something, a topic that's unfamiliar to many of our listeners.

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We are going to be discussing hyper -preterism, and to discuss that today is

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Samuel M. Frost. He was one of the leading figures defending and promoting and proselytizing hyper -preterism.

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Of course, he didn't call it that at that time. He would just have called it preterism or full preterism or realized eschatology or a number of nicknames that this eschatological view has been given.

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He is also the author of the book Why I Left Full Preterism, and our specific title today is

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Are Hyper -Preterists Our Brethren in Christ When Eschatology Becomes a Matter of Salvation?

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We're also going to be discussing an upcoming debate that's actually going to be held, God willing, tomorrow in Malvern, Long Island at the

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Church of the Intercessor. This is going to be a debate that our guest is having with Michael Miano, who is a pastor on Long Island, New York, who promotes this view of eschatology that my guest and I and many others in the

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Reformed faith and elsewhere believe to be a dangerous heresy. But this debate is going to be held tomorrow,

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May 4th, at 7 p .m. at Church of the Intercessor in Malvern, Long Island, New York, and we'll give you more details in a bit.

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But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron, Sharp, and Zion Radio, Sam Frost. Chris, good to talk to you again, and thank you for having me on the program.

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Well, I thank you for being on the program with very little notice. I, in fact,

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I just found out about the debate maybe two or three days ago at the most, and I was thrilled to be able to get

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Sam on with very little notice because I think so highly of Sam, and I also think this is an important subject that we are discussing today.

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Sam, if you could, even though you have been on the program before, you gave us your entire testimony, there are many people,

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I'm sure, who are hearing you for the first time on Iron, Sharp, and Zion Radio, so I'd like you to give a summary of how you got into hyper -preterism, also, as I said before, it's called by its advocates things like just preterism or full preterism or realized eschatology or covenant eschatology, many other things.

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But how did you first hear about it, and what was your eschatological view at the time you heard about it, and how were you led into it?

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Well, actually, let's step back a couple of paces, define it, define hyper -preterism, and I know that it is not a monolithic group, they're not all identical, those who advocate it, but if you could just give us a summary definition that would be generally held universally by all who would be in the camp of full preterism.

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Well, I'll give you the definition as I would have defended it when

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I was teaching it, so as to be fair. Basically, it's taking the idea that Jesus' sayings when it came to the end, you know, wars, rumors of wars, salmons, earthquakes, end of the age, last days, resurrection of the dead, that all of that kind of material was fulfilled by 70

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AD, and the reason why we say 70 AD is because of the phrase, which as you know has caused some problems with interpretation, and that's the phrase, this generation.

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Jesus said not one thing, but you'll see all these things in this generation. And so if we say that who is the audience that Jesus was originally talking to, how would they have understood that?

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Then that would have been their contemporary generation, which means that all the things that Jesus talks about in Matthew 24, all the things that Paul talks about in 1

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Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15, Romans 8, where it talks about the redemption of the body and the yearning and groaning of creation, the book of Revelation, obviously, as a whole, all of that is fulfilled and describes that generation of the first century up until the times of the war of the

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Jews with the Romans in 70 AD, and so we utilize a lot of Josephus, the historian

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Josephus, whose famous work, Antiquities and War of the

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Jews, which every historian knows, and so there's an inevitability to that when you first, because when you go into either

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Bible college, and I'm getting my Bachelor of Theology degree at the time, this is 1980s, so you're hearing all this for the first time, and so it's, and then you see that there's other people that mention 70

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AD, and it kind of brings you in, but the hyper -preterist, the full preterist, we take it all in 70

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AD, so 1 Corinthians 15 is fulfilled in 70 AD, 1 Thessalonians 4 is fulfilled,

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Matthew 24, all of it is fulfilled in 70 AD, so that's basically the idea of what's going on there, and I think, you know, you hearing that, your reaction to that initially is,

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I think first and foremost is, how do you get the resurrection of the dead in 70

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AD? Well, that's where we differ, obviously, obviously from everyone else.

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And brother, I don't know if you are speaking too closely to your mouthpiece or something, but you're over -modulating a little bit, and I have turned down, as far as I can turn down everything on my end,

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I have turned down the volumes, but you, perhaps if you, I usually have the opposite problem with my guests, they're too quiet, so if there's anything you can do to back away from my mouth, yeah, or something, because it's a bit,

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I'm fine with it, but it may be a little annoying to our listeners on the radio. Oh, okay. All right, hopefully this is better then.

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Right now you sound fine. Okay, perfect. Right this second, anyway. Okay, I'll keep,

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I got it held in a certain way. Now, from what I remember from our last interview, you and I have in common the fact that we are both partial preterists, which is a completely biblical and orthodox and faithful eschatology to have.

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I happen to be of the amillennial stripe, optimistic amillennial, and partial preterist, and I believe you may be a post -millennial.

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I would be amillennial. Oh, you would, oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, well, see, this is where the problem comes in, because just like with hyper -Calvinism, and let me fill you in, folks, for those of you who are not theologically reformed, hyper -Calvinism is not the belief in the five points of Calvinism, which many non - or anti -Calvinists will say.

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They will say, anybody who believes, especially in limited atonement and unconditional election, they will say, oh, that person is a hyper -Calvinist.

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No, that's historic, biblically faithful Calvinism, but there are those that are,

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I believe, dangerously heretical, who take a good thing too far, and they start isogening things in the rest of the

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Scripture that remove the other aspect of biblical truth when you take in consideration the whole counsel of God.

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The hyper -Calvinist will tend to take away or nullify all of the biblical truth, all of the texts that teach that man is responsible.

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They may even take away the texts that teach that man does have, in a certain context, a free will.

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He has a free will to choose according to his nature and his desires. He is not forced against his will either to believe in Christ or to sin.

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But he cannot, in the deadness of his sin, savingly believe upon Christ.

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So he needs a new heart that is given to him by Christ and has a new spirit within him in order to believe and obey

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God. But in the same way, you have a hyper -preterist movement that sees some truths that many in the body of Christ do not see.

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They see nearly any prophecy in the Bible as being an event in our future that is yet to be fulfilled.

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And I believe that the majority of the body of Christ, whether they be dispensationalists or otherwise, are in error with some of the texts that Sam and I and quite a number of people would believe are already fulfilled or have already taken place.

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But the hyper -preterist goes too far, just like the hyper -Calvinist does. And let's also get our vocabulary straight because, as I said before, when our guests, or should

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I say our listeners, meet a hyper -preterist, they are never going to call themselves that.

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And one of the dangers is that many partial preterists call themselves simply preterists, and hyper -preterists also simply very often call themselves preterists without any kind of an adjective to further describe that.

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Historically, the term preterist has been around for a long time. That was applied actually to Calvin.

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His interpretation of Daniel 9, for example, was the editors of Calvin's commentaries make note that Calvin took the preterist view.

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That's how it was pronounced, the preterist view. But a preterist just simply means past. It's a

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Latin for past. And so it just became this thing where texts that had to deal with eschatology, if you interpreted that as already happening or already happened, or if you interpreted it as something that's future, you took a preterist view.

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Never was it used for somebody that took every single prophecy in the

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Bible as fulfilled in the past by the time of 70 AD. So you had to delineate the term,

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I think around in the 1980s where this term full preterist started coming into vogue.

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Because that adjective had to describe what kind of preterist, because there's all kinds of preterists.

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There's all kinds of different preterists. There's even an old... There's preterism everywhere. Yeah, and there's also different kinds of partial preterists.

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For instance, two of the leading figures today teaching a partial preteristic view are

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Gary DeMar and Ken Gentry. And even though they are both friends and both heavily promote each other's ministries and books, they don't even agree on everything in regard to the preterist view.

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In fact, they disagree on Matthew 24 and other things. Yeah. Even a dissensationalist on certain passages, like you'll see the cities surrounded by armies, a dissensationalist understands that's 70

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AD. So that would be a preterist method or a preterist interpretation. So that's how

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I use that term. So you can see that that term preterist, it just applies to certain types of things.

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And so then we had to come up with a partial preterist. So that's a relatively new term, because this is what we were trying to do, is hijack the term preterism.

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Preterism only has so that we can stop using the phrase full preterist. We just call ourselves preterists. That's what we were.

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But I didn't like doing that because of the historic usage of the word.

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So I would just label all this as just preterism, and then you have full preterism.

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Because partial preterism, we would make fun of that term. How can you be partial past? Right. Because everybody's partial past, and so we would make fun of that particular term.

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That's the kind of stuff we sit around with too much time on our hands. Right. Well, I continue to call myself a partial preterist, because I don't want anybody to think for a second that I am a full or hyper preterist, because I believe it is that dangerous and heretical.

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And some of the other nicknames, just so our listeners know to keep their ears and eyes open, for those in this camp of hyper preterism,

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I know that they sometimes call themselves believers in realized eschatology and covenant eschatology.

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Do you know any other phrases that they use? Covenant eschatology, that's a pretty fresh term that's used for a particular type of full preterist, which is almost exclusively theirs.

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There's another term, transmillennialist. Realized eschatology, as you probably know from C .H.

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Dawe, that's kind of a, C .H.

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Dawe's realized eschatology, we're going back here to the 1950s, is nothing like what you would, the way the full preterists are using it.

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But they do use that term, realized eschatology. That's about,

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I mean, full preterism, the most popular term still on Facebook or any other social media is still full preterist.

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Okay, so they don't have any problems using that term. I never had a problem when I was a full preterist,

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I never had problems with that term, it's just what we were. We were full preterists.

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All right, and by the way, just another reminder, if you could back away from the mouthpiece. Oh, okay. Well, before we go into greater depth, as far as the primary texts of scripture, championed by the hyper -preterists, and why this issue is a salvific issue, or an issue that turns eschatology into an issue that,

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I believe, brothers in Christ can have great differences on eschatology, but this issue turns eschatology, in my opinion, into a matter of spiritual life and death.

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But before we go into all of those things, let's just talk for a minute about the debate, since it is tomorrow, and we want to give people plenty of time to make plans to attend this, tomorrow,

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Saturday, May 4th, 7 p .m., at the Church of the Intercessor in Malvern, Long Island, New York, the

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Church of the Intercessor, I believe, is a member of the Charismatic Episcopal denomination.

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They have been around for quite a long time. I remember, many years ago, I had friends, when

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I was still living on Long Island, who were members there, and they used to go to the home of my friend, or should

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I say my friends, Bob and Mary Lou Posh, who lived in Baldwin, Long Island. Bob was a, and still is, a

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Roman Catholic, and he used to invite me and other evangelicals to his home, so that we would eat, drink, and argue.

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And that actually gave rise to the Protestant versus Roman Catholic debates that I arranged on Long Island for a decade, that all came to be as a result of Bob Posh being a

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Roman Catholic. His wife was, at the time, a member of the Church of the Intercessor, but she later converted to Catholicism.

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But they would have, I would say, close to 20 people from Church of the Intercessor at these barbecues, and also in the wintertime, indoor parties that they would have.

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So I have been aware of this congregation for quite a long time. I remember when Craig Bates was the pastor, and I'd like to give a shout -out to Rick Zepernick.

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I believe he may still be a member there, I'm not sure, but he would be at these parties every year. But anyway, this debate is going to be on the specific theme,

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Is the Coming of Christ and Resurrection of the Dead and the

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Fullness of the New Heaven and New Earth Past or Future?

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If you could explain that in a little bit more detail. Well, and again,

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I hope I'm far away from the mic here. You're still modulating a little bit, but we've got to do what we've got to do.

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There's nothing I can do on my end. Obviously, to say that we're in the new heavens and new earth right now, as you and I are speaking, we would have to radically do something to that phrase and definition to make it work.

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As opposed to the way that the definition has been used historically.

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The way the definition of new heavens and new earth has been used, both in rabbinic Jewish literature as well as in Christian literature for 1 ,800 years, is that God is going to restore creation itself, and a new heavens and a new earth, quite literally.

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And that's how that phrase, more or less, has been understood. To say that we're in the new heavens and the new earth now as we speak, one has to radically redefine the understanding in terms of a spiritual understanding.

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And we got that because it seems like the

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New Testament spiritualizes things. And I know that you can watch a lot of Dr.

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Phil or Oprah Winfrey where people are, we're not religious, we're spiritual. And so, again, that kind of spiritualizing is kind of in the air today.

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And people who don't know better can fall into that and think, well, what's wrong with, Chris, what's so wrong with spiritualizing the new heavens and the new earth?

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We're spiritually in the kingdom of God. We're spiritually seated in heavenly places. We're spiritually this, we're spiritually that.

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And that's where the segue comes in, to where we can start slowly chipping away at this idea of a literal new heavens and a literal new earth, and begin to float the idea that that came when the temple was sacked by the

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Romans. And keep in mind, all that the temple represented of the old, right?

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So that's the old world. That's the old covenant world. And all that the temple represented was the old world.

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So in light of that falling of the old world, what would be the coming in of the new world, of the new heavens and of the new earth?

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Well, it would be the new covenant. And it's under that umbrella that we're able to begin to work out this kind of theological definings, redefinings, actually, redefinings would be a better way to say it, of terms like resurrection of the body, where that's the body of Christ.

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The corporate body of Christ is raised from the old man, putting off the old covenant man and coming into the new covenant man.

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That's resurrection of the dead. So we start going into that kind of stuff. That's how we do it. And I'm interested in hearing your take, just initially hearing this, because you have to admit, on the surface, if you didn't know any better, there is a ring of plausibility to it.

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You can see where somebody who doesn't know any better is like, oh yeah, I can kind of see that.

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And that's where we start drawing people in, and then that coupled with this generation.

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This generation will see all these things. All these things are fulfilled. Well, how do you fulfill new heavens and new earth?

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How do you fulfill resurrection of the body? How do you fulfill? Well, maybe we had all those definitions wrong, and maybe we need to go back and redefine all these kinds of things in a more spiritual manner.

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What we call, you mentioned covenant eschatology. That's why the phrase is used. We're not full predators, but this is covenant eschatology, because all of our terms are rooted in redefining these terms in terms of covenant.

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From old covenant, old world, old man, old body, old life in Adam, to new life, new covenant, new man, the new spirit.

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And that's where we're able to use that language to justify all things being fulfilled in 70

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AD. I don't know initially if that would make any sense to you. It did to this young theologian back in the end of the 80s and early 90s.

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It made sense to me. And forgive me if you said this and I forgot. Where were you theologically and eschatologically when you first heard about hyper -preterism?

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Well, I was reading back in the late 80s, a gang in Tyler, Texas.

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This was Gary DeMar, Ray Sutton, James B. Jordan, David Chilton, Gary North. And none of those men are hyper -preterists, by the way.

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No. I'm sure our listeners know that. They are partial preterists. Right. And Gary was publishing

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Dominion Press, which was out of Tyler, Texas. So Gary North was grouping these guys.

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Ken Gentry was with them, and he was publishing these guys. And I was on college campus at the time working at a

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Christian bookstore, and so we were getting in all these books, and that's who I was reading. And David Chilton, in his commentary on Revelation, Days of Vengeance, he footnoted

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Max King. And I knew how to get ahold of Max King's book, Crossing the

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Parasite of Christ. And King, was he already a hyper -preterist at that time? Yes. Now, King had been doing this since 1969, 70, 71.

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He's kind of like considered the grandfather of this movement, isn't he? King is the most, he's the most, clearest writer,

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I think, in Crossing the Parasite. It's an 800 -page tome is what it is.

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If you really want a good grasp of it, that's the book that I recommend there. If you really want to understand the detailed inner workings of what's going on, it's that book right there.

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But I'm assuming you wouldn't want anybody but perhaps a more well -read Christian who is solid and firmly rooted in historic confessional

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Christianity, rather than some new novice who's just going to be blown every way, every direction.

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Well, right, because reading King now, I see many, many critical mistakes, exegetical mistakes that he made, unaware of at the time, but I'm aware of now.

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But now King, which I'm sure you're familiar with... It was in the

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Church of Christ at one time. It was in the background of the Church of Christ, and Barton Stone and... And Alexander Campbell.

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Alexander Campbell, Restorationist movement, no creeds but Christ. So they've already got kind of an axe to grind with anything formal, religious, creedal.

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They've already thrown off that. And also to clarify, the vast majority of ministers and members of that movement, the

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Restoration movement, Church of Christ movement, they are not full preterists. In fact, many of them are very fiery in their opposition to this and would join us in saying that this is dangerous and heretical.

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Yes, yes. And I would say also, Chris, that the majority of full preterists today,

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I would... This is a guesstimation just from my experience of being over a decade in the movement, speaking at over 25 conferences throughout the

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United States from roughly 2003 to 2007, and getting a feel for that.

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But largely, I would say the full preterists are coming out of the Church of Christ groups, the

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Church of Christ churches. A smaller pocket would be the so -called

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Reformed or Calvinist full preterists. And in fact, in many ways, hyper -preterism militates against the hallmarks of the

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Church of Christ because it really reduces the importance of the Church and sometimes negates its existence, whereas the

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Church of Christ exalts the importance of the Church and their ordinances, even on many occasions viewing them as salvific, and whereas...

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Baptism being one of them. Right, and then where you have many who are full preterists not even practicing the ordinances anymore.

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That was one of the problems we were having in the mid -2000s, was what to do with the ordinances.

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Because again, if everything is first century, you do show forth the Lord's death until He comes.

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Well, He came in 70 AD, so we don't have to show forth the Lord's death anymore in the table. So a lot of full preterists got rid of the

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Lord's table. They don't need it anymore. So basically, going back to my original question about where you were,

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I'm assuming then you were either a non -millennial at the time or a post -millennial who discovered partial preterism and became fascinated by it, and then made the unfortunate leap from there into full preterism.

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Well, I've been at church all my life, and I was raised in a dispensational church, a four -square gospel church.

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And, you know, the holiness movement, Pentecostal, Assembly of God, Church of God, all of that more or less accepted a dispensationalist kind of approach to things when it came to eschatology.

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So growing up hearing that, seeing the significance of 70

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AD in many of the New Testament texts, you know, all of the discourse and this, that, and the other.

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But in a dispensationalist mind, all prophecy stands or falls together. So if Matthew 24 is fulfilled, then so is 1

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Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4, because in the dispensationalist mind, those passages are all talking about the same thing.

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So if you become a preterist in the Gary DeMar sense, it's very easy with a dispensationalist background to step into a full preterist.

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It's not that hard. The only real difficulty you have is no one's ever believed this before.

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Well, and also the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, maybe. Right. And I don't want people to think that our friend

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Gary DeMar is somehow dangerous because he's teaching something, even though I have my disagreements with him,

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I believe that most of what he is teaching is accurate. But it's just like Calvinism.

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I don't renounce Calvinism or Reformed theology or the teachings of sovereign grace because there are hyper -Calvinists.

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In fact, many people who are young in the faith who become

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Calvinists, unfortunately, become those that are nicknamed in the cage stage of Calvinism because they run wild with these truths and exaggerate them and really, in many ways, at least temporarily, become hyper -Calvinists and damn everyone to hell who does not exactly agree with them.

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I know that I've said this on my show before, but I thought it was kind of humorous when some friends of mine who have thankfully matured in their faith and are biblically sound today in their

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Calvinism, but when they first became Calvinists, they pulled me aside after a worship service, very angry that the pastor had said, choose this day whom you may serve.

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And I said, that's in the Bible, by the way, because he said choose, they went bananas.

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But we have to be careful not to think that just because something can lead to a serious heresy that it's not true before the person makes the extra -biblical or un -biblical or anti -biblical leap.

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Yeah, and let me say, you know, Gary is a friend of mine, or rather I'm a friend of his, and I hold him in high esteem.

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I recommend anything that he's doing. And Gary takes his own work with the invitation of questions.

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You know, Gary, you know, would invite questions, and Gary is somebody that, you know, if you've got a better argument, bring it his way, and he'll listen to you.

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So he's not closed off to that kind of thing, especially when it comes to eschatology.

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And Dr. Kenneth Gentry just recently republished my book Why I Left Full Preterism, Dr. Gentry. Oh, great.

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Yeah, so, and Gentry and I have our differences, which are, you know, if you read our materials, you'll see the differences that we have.

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But nonetheless, I hold Gentry in very high esteem. He and me published my book. So that actually is something, you know,

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I know you have to take some breaks or whatever, but that's actually something that I want to talk about, that how is it that you can have conversations with somebody like Gentry who may, or Damar, who may go a little further in preterism than, say, the hyperpreterists?

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How can you have a conversation with them and consider them brothers, but yet the hyper... Well, that actually illustrates the point that we are really going to go after here.

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Right, and to keep in mind, folks, that, and I think you misspoke there, they don't go further than the hyperpreterists.

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They go further than you and many partial preterists. Yes, right, right, yes.

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And because of the fact that they both champion postmillennialism, that is a key difference between a hyperpreterist and a postmillennialist because the postmillennialists believe that there's a reason that it's called postmillennialism.

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The post means that Christ is going to return after the millennium. But anyway, we're going to go to our break right now because I also want you to remind me and our listeners, or perhaps inform our listeners for the first time, what was the straw that broke the camel's back that made you leave hyperpreterism?

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And then we really have to go into why this is dangerous. Why is this difference, why is this difference different than the difference we have with somebody who believes in a pre -wrath rapture or somebody who's premillennial or somebody who is a pessimistic amillennialist rather than an optimistic amillennialist.

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And we could go on and on and on with differences that genuine brethren have where we don't feel threatened by one another and we don't think that the gospel is in jeopardy by these differences.

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There's a difference here with the hyperpreterism that makes a difference in eschatology dangerous and damning.

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But we have to go to our break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com chrisarnson at gmail dot com

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Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

35:49

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two S's in the middle. I hope to hear from you soon. God bless you. Chris Orensen, host of Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio here.

38:51

I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

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Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

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Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently, he wrote a book titled

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Consider the Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword.

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Dan also has a master's degree in theology. Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states.

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He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy. And currently, his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more and in approximately 10 different states.

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That's chrisarnson at gmail .com Did you know that all believers are priests?

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In 1 Peter chapter 2 verse 9, the Apostle Peter describes Christ's church as comprising a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

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My name is Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.

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I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the Doctor of Ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

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I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

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.nyc. Have a great day. ...damning

46:18

view of eschatology. Sam is the author of Why I Left Full Preterism, and today we are discussing our hyper -preterists, our brethren in Christ, when eschatology becomes a matter of salvation.

46:32

And, in fact, tomorrow, tomorrow night, that's Saturday, May 4th, at 7 p .m.,

46:38

Sam is going to be debating Michael Miano, who is an advocate of full preterism, and that is going to be held at the

46:46

Church of the Intercessor in Malvern, Long Island. And I know that the website for the

46:53

Church of the Intercessor is intercessorchurch .com, intercessorchurch .com,

46:59

but I don't believe that they have anything about the debate on that website. Do you know a place,

47:05

Sam, where our listeners can go to to get all of the details they need for the conference? It'd have to be

47:12

Facebook. It's the only place that I know. And look up Sam Frost on Facebook?

47:18

Yes. Or Church of the Intercessor, or something along those lines. Yeah, I know that their website,

47:23

I don't see anything on their website that mentions the debate, but it will give you all the directions and things like that that you need, and that is, once again, intercessorchurch .com,

47:33

intercessorchurch .com. Maybe if Eddie Piro is listening, he can make sure that Church of the

47:39

Intercessor gets an ad for your debate up there quickly, so that people can find the information at the church website.

47:49

Once again, if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

47:56

And please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

48:04

And by the way, we invite listeners who radically disagree with our guest if you have a question of your own, whether you are a full preterist yourself, or,

48:15

I know that there are many in the pre -millennial and post -millennial and amillennial camps that are very vociferously opposed to any kind of preterism, and so that's what makes the matters more complicated, because you and I are partial preterists.

48:35

So there are, just like with Calvinism, there are people who despise any kind of Calvinism, let alone hyper -Calvinism, and they mislabel authentic, historic, biblical

48:46

Calvinism as hyper -Calvinism. So we have this very confusing world that we live in, but anyway. Now let's go to the part where I was mentioning before the break, the straw that broke the camel's back with you that said, alright,

48:59

I've got to get out of here. I am no longer a full preterist. I am renouncing this.

49:06

This is really spooky stuff. Let me get out of here. What exactly happened? Well, it was a combination of things.

49:16

I was reading a book on by Gordon Clark, the reformed philosopher

49:29

Gordon Clark, and just inadvertently, it wasn't the point, I was reading it, but he had mentioned the, and I had known this before, you know how you know things before, they just don't connect.

49:42

Years later, they connect. And he had mentioned, of course, in the

49:47

Westminster Confession where it talks about the number of the elect of whose number God so knows but can neither be diminished nor increased.

49:56

So God knows all that are His. And for some reason, that just really stood out.

50:06

Because in hyperpreterism, it is the understanding that history never ends.

50:11

This is the new heavens and the new earth. This is the kingdom of Christ ruling over the world.

50:18

This is what history looks like, and it will go on literally forever. In other words, history never ends.

50:25

You know, what you see right now. And of course, the issue, you know, you die and you go to heaven, of course, but there will never be a new heavens and a new earth as originally understood.

50:39

So history goes on forever. So we were thinking, well, what about procreation? That goes on forever.

50:45

That procreation goes on forever. Well, if that's the case, then you have an ever -increasing number.

50:52

And for some reason, that just hit me as odd. I'm thinking, well, wait a minute. God knows all His people, but you could always add one more to that, and that's just, obviously, we have a contradiction.

51:07

I began to present that material to the full preterist, and the reactions I was getting back were less than satisfying.

51:15

Because now I was being told that I had to believe in a contradiction, or we'll put it in more friendly terms, a paradox.

51:24

But this is actually what we were using against those who were saying that near doesn't mean near.

51:29

It's a paradox. God's coming is always near. And that's a paradox. And we were arguing against that.

51:36

And now we were using that same argument. That was a problem for me. I thought, well, wait a minute. We've got an issue here.

51:46

And it was reading John 6, all that the

51:51

Father has given to me, all who believe in me are drawn to the

51:58

Father, and I will raise them in the last day. And Jesus says this six times in John 6.

52:04

And I will raise them in the last day, all who are drawn to me. I will draw them into myself. All those great passages you see in the

52:10

Westminster Confession, utilize them. In that word, all there. And I will raise them, all that are drawn to me, everyone who believes in me, an everlasting life, and I will raise them up on the last day.

52:24

All. It can't be a infinite number. And that, just John 6, and the word last day, and I will raise them.

52:35

Well, who's the them? All that I'm drawing. Who's that? All who believe. And that, you can see where the connection, just like a lightning bolt.

52:47

Intellectually, I'm not saying I had a spirit, you know. Maybe it was that. I don't know. It was just very clear to me that oh my gosh, this it just, and from there, obviously with last day,

53:03

I will raise them up on the last day. That wasn't 70 A .D. It couldn't be because of the all. I'm wrong.

53:08

And it just very quickly, like dominoes, just fell very quickly for me. And I realized

53:14

I had a problem. A very, very serious problem here. I assume that you were, at the time, that you were a hyper -preterist.

53:21

You were still in some way a functioning Calvinist. And I think that your shock there would have been more understandable being a

53:33

Calvinist. Because, obviously, an Arminian hyper -preterist or a

53:39

Pelagian hyper -preterist or, you know, those that come out of a typical

53:44

Church of Christ background might not be troubled all that much by that. But, obviously, it contradicts historic reform theology.

53:52

Well, there's a large rift in the full -preterist communities between because you have such large

54:02

Church of Christ members and you have these so -called

54:07

Calvinist members of hyper -preterists. There is a large rift.

54:13

And so I just debated, last weekend, with Holger Neubauer. He's out of the

54:19

Church of Christ. He's a Church of Christ minister. He's a hyper -preterist.

54:26

He is adamantly and I mean explicitly and adamantly. If you had him on the show, he would agree with every word that I'm getting ready to say.

54:33

He is adamantly opposed to any form of Calvinist. And then he said, and I am aware of the

54:43

Calvinists that are among the full -preterists, like Pastor David Curtis and Michael Sullivan, and we're going after them, too.

54:51

My jaw dropped. I thought, oh, man. Because the reason why

54:58

Sam Frost left full -preterism is because of Calvinism, and we need to root out Calvinism from full -preterism.

55:05

Wow. Okay. Well, hey, I appreciate the honesty. Now, is he still somebody who practices the ordinances of the

55:14

Church and so on? Okay. Because there is a division amongst hyper -preterists, even those from out of the

55:21

Church of Christ who abandoned baptism in the Lord's Supper. We're going to our midway break.

55:28

I know that this all came up very quickly again, but this is our longer -than -normal break because Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida requires of us a longer break in the middle because they air their own public service announcements and commercials in order to localize

55:44

Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida, while we air our own commercials that are heard globally.

55:50

So please use this time wisely. Write down questions for Sam Frost. Any question on eschatology will be fine.

55:57

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com. Also write down the information provided by our advertisers because this will enable you to more frequently and successfully patronize our advertisers and we rely upon our advertisers to exist because their advertising dollars are what sustains us.

56:17

Of course, the sovereignty of God sustains us more than anything, but he uses the means of our benefactors and our advertisers to keep us on the air.

56:26

So please try to patronize our advertisers as often as you can. But we're going to be back.

56:32

Oh, and let me just ask Sam Frost a question before I go to the break and you can answer it when we return. Our friend

56:39

Eddie Piro who is from the Church of the Intercessor, he wants to let our listeners know that he attached information with a link to your profile that has information on the debate on the

56:53

Church of the Intercessor website. But he also wants to ask the question how much of the book of Revelation would you say is fulfilled?

57:00

And you can answer that question. You're going to have about 10 minutes to think about that. Thanks, Eddie. You've got about 10 minutes to think about that because that's about how long our break is.

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Don't go away, folks. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. Tired of box store

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I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

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He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy. And currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more, and in approximately 10 different states.

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In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history. In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the

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I recommend that you call Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win!

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Dan Badafuco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878.

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That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Did you know that all believers are priests?

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In 1 Peter 2 verse 9, the Apostle Peter describes Christ's church as It's comprising a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

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And he even translated his own version of the Bible. I mean, I could go on and on and on about this phenomenal, amazing man that hardly anybody knows about.

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This is a beautiful hardback biography published by Evangelical Press. And you get it absolutely free.

01:09:20

What you have to do is you have to go to cvbbs .com. You have to put this book in your cart, along with $50 worth of merchandise that you want to purchase.

01:09:32

Then you enter the code IRONSHARPENSIRON, all caps, all one word. IRONSHARPENSIRON, no spaces, no dots.

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And then you will get the price of the book, A Pastor in New York, The Life and Time of Spencer Cone, removed from the total.

01:09:49

So you do have to put the book in your cart, in addition to the other $50 worth of merchandise that the book,

01:09:57

A Pastor in New York, cannot be included in that $50. So that has to be put in there on top of $50 worth of purchases.

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And then you will get the price of the book removed when you enter coupon code

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IRONSHARPENSIRON. And that's all caps, all one word. And of course, you could just verbally tell whoever answers the phone at cvbbs, if you call them at 800 -656 -0231, 800 -656 -0231, between 10 a .m.

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and 4 30 p .m. eastern time, you could tell them the coupon code IRONSHARPENSIRON, and tell them that you want the free book,

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A Pastor in New York, The Life and Time of Spencer Cone. I cannot sing the praises of this book more highly.

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You will be blessed, whether you are a Baptist, a Presbyterian, or whatever you happen to be.

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You might not even be a Christian and find this book fascinating. So I just highly recommend it.

01:10:50

My favorite biography of all time. And before we return to our guest, Sam Frost, we are discussing hyper -preterism.

01:10:57

We do have some important announcements to make involving upcoming events, the first of which is one we have already been mentioning.

01:11:05

Tomorrow night, that's Saturday, May 4th at 7 p .m., Sam will be debating Michael Miano, who is a proponent or advocate of full preterism.

01:11:16

That is going to be taking place at the Church of the Intercessor in Malvern, Long Island, New York. And if you want more details, go to the website of the

01:11:25

Church of the Intercessor, which is intercessorchurch .com, intercessorchurch .com.

01:11:32

You can also go on Facebook and type in Sam Frost, F as in Frank, R -O -S -T,

01:11:38

Sam Frost, and you will have the information that you need about this debate on hyper -preterism between our guests

01:11:46

Samuel M. Frost and Michael Miano. Then my Iron Sharpens Iron radio pastor's luncheon is coming up in a few weeks,

01:11:57

Thursday, May 23rd, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at the Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall right here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

01:12:04

My guest speaker is Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. He's going to be speaking on the theme,

01:12:10

The Dead Sea Scrolls and How They Vindicate the Reliability of the Bible. This is absolutely free to all pastors and elders, and I believe they're the same office, by the way, deacons, power church leaders.

01:12:23

If you are a man in ministry leadership, you are welcome to attend. This is an event that my precious late wife began in the 1990s because she saw how many friends

01:12:32

I had who were ministers and she wanted to treat them to a wonderful time of rest, relaxation and fun and feasting, and she came up with the idea and I've been doing it ever since.

01:12:43

And even after she went home to be with the Lord for eternity, I've been doing it in her memory, in her honor. So I hope that you could come.

01:12:50

Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put pastor's luncheon in the subject line.

01:12:57

And you'll be not only getting fed for free and hearing an excellent message by Dr. Tony Costa for free, but you'll be leaving with a heavy sack of brand new free books that have been donated by major Christian publishers in the

01:13:09

United States and the United Kingdom. You'll probably get more than two or three dozen free books.

01:13:15

That's right, I said two or three dozen free books. So I hope that you register. Send me the email to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:13:21

And then from there, Dr. Tony Costa is heading to Long Island, New York. I will be accompanying him to Long Island, New York for speaking engagements he has there.

01:13:31

Everyone is welcome to these events, whether you are a man, woman, or child.

01:13:38

They include the New Hyde Park Baptist Church of New Hyde Park, Long Island, New York. They include

01:13:44

Wading River Baptist Church in Wading River, Long Island, New York, Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, and Missio Church in Ridge, Long Island, New York.

01:13:54

These events will take place between Friday, the 24th of May and Sunday, the 26th of May.

01:14:01

If you want the full speaking itinerary of Dr. Tony Costa, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:14:07

And put Dr. Tony Costa in the subject line. I will email you the full itinerary with all the information that you need to attend.

01:14:14

Then as soon as Dr. Costa is finished on Long Island, I am going to be heading back to Pennsylvania, to Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania, more specifically to the

01:14:22

Elizabethtown College for the Banner of Truth East Coast Ministers Conference. On the theme, I Believe in the

01:14:27

Holy Spirit, speakers include Jeff Kingswood, Terry Johnson, David Vaughn, Steve Nichols, Michael Morales, and Chad Vegas.

01:14:36

That is from Tuesday, the 28th of May, through Thursday, the 30th of May, at the

01:14:42

Elizabethtown College, Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania. If you are a man in ministry leadership, you are welcome to register at banneroftruth .org,

01:14:50

banneroftruth .org, and then scroll down to East Coast Ministers Conference, and I hope to see you there.

01:14:56

Then coming up in December, on the 19th and 20th of December, I will be heading out to my old stomping grounds,

01:15:05

New York, for the Foundations Conference, which is a conference of sermonaudio .com,

01:15:13

and this is going to be held Thursday and Friday, December 19th and 20th, in Manhattan, and the speakers are always extraordinary, and this

01:15:23

December is no exception. They include Dr. Stephen J. Lawson, whose voice you heard or hear every day, promoting

01:15:30

New Covenant Church NYC, one of our sponsors. He is the founder of One Passion Ministries, and he is one of the most powerful preachers alive today, in my opinion.

01:15:38

Paul Washer, who is another one of the most powerful preachers alive today, is on the roster. Jeff Thomas, who

01:15:44

I would also include in that category of the most powerful preachers alive today. Reverend Armin Tomasian, what a gift to the body of Christ he is.

01:15:53

He is a young pastor, but he has gifts and abilities beyond his youth, and I believe he is going to become a household name, especially amongst

01:16:00

Reformed Christians within the next decade. He is just phenomenal. Richard Caldwell Jr.

01:16:07

and Andrew Quigley, I have not yet heard either of them preach yet, but since Sermon Audio selected them,

01:16:13

I'm sure they are also magnificent. Go to thefoundationsconference .com, thefoundationsconference .com,

01:16:21

and register, and I would do it quickly because they can only hold about a little less than 200 people in their venue.

01:16:27

Remember, it's Thursday and Friday, December 19th and 20th in New York City. Then I'm heading out to Georgia once again to the

01:16:36

G3 Conference. That's in January for G3 2020.

01:16:42

G3 stands for Gospel, Grace, and Glory, and specifically the dates are

01:16:48

January 16th, which is a Thursday, through January 18th, which is a Saturday, at the

01:16:53

Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia, which is a suburb of Atlanta. Typically over 5 ,000 people attend this magnificent event, and I will once again be manning an

01:17:05

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio exhibitors booth, so I hope to see you there. The speakers include Kosti Hinn, who is, believe it or not, the nephew of the notorious charlatan

01:17:16

Benny Hinn, and Kosti has renounced his Word of Faith background.

01:17:22

He has renounced it as dangerous and damning heresy, and he is now a cessationist and a

01:17:28

Reformed Baptist, and he is on the roster of speakers. David Miller is on the roster.

01:17:35

David Miller is also a profound preacher. Derek Thomas, who is obviously no stranger to anyone who is

01:17:41

Reformed alive today. Derek Thomas is one of the most phenomenal writers and speakers in the body of Christ.

01:17:48

My friend, Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries is going to be speaking there. Joel Beeky, who's also been a friend of mine going back to the early 1990s.

01:17:57

What a powerful preacher and writer he is. Josh Bice, who is the founder of the G3 Conference. Oh, and once again, we have

01:18:03

Paul Washer on the roster and Stephen Lawson on the roster. My friend, Tom Askell, Executive Director of Founders Ministries, and Voti Baucom, also such an amazing gift to the body of Christ.

01:18:16

What a powerful teacher and writer he is. Go to g3conference .com to register, g3conference .com.

01:18:23

And I would strongly urge you to register also for an exhibitor's booth if you have a ministry or business that you want to promote, because over 5 ,000 people attend this conference every year, and it's an ideal place to promote whatever it is you're doing, as long as it's compatible with the philosophy and theology of the

01:18:42

G3 Conference. I have gained much benefit from my own exhibitor's booth there, and I'm sure you will too.

01:18:48

That's g3conference .com, g3conference .com. Last but not least, if you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, you do not want us to disappear from the airwaves.

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Please, we urgently need your donations in order to remain on the air. Please go to ironsharpensironradio .com,

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01:20:26

You don't have to believe identically with me, but you need to be promoting something compatible with what I believe. And if you are not a member of a local

01:20:32

Bible -believing church and you're not prayerfully looking for one, you are living in rebellion against God.

01:20:38

So please repent of that. Make a change today and try to find a good

01:20:44

Bible -believing church near you. If you need help, I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world.

01:20:50

I can help you find a church. Send me an email to chrislorenson at gmail .com, chrislorenson at gmail .com.

01:20:55

And even if you're going on vacation somewhere and you need a good church to visit while you are away from home,

01:21:00

I can help you there as well. That's chrislorenson at gmail .com. That's also the email address where you could send in a question for our guest today,

01:21:08

Samuel M. Frost, author of Why I Left Full Preterism. We are discussing,

01:21:14

Are Hyper -Preterists Our Brethren in Christ When Eschatology Becomes a Matter of Salvation? And we are promoting the debate tomorrow night in Malvern, Long Island on full preterism.

01:21:25

Send us an email to chrislorenson at gmail .com. And as you remember probably, Sam, our mutual friend,

01:21:32

Eddie Pirro, who is a member of the Church of the Intercessor, who is actually a major part of this debate you're involved in, he asked the question,

01:21:41

How much of the book of Revelation is already fulfilled in your humble opinion? Um, is

01:21:49

Eddie listening? I assume he is. I assume he is. Um, that's a...

01:22:02

I almost thought you got raptured for a second. My answer is some of it. Some of it.

01:22:11

Is that really the best answer you're gonna give Eddie? Yeah, I'm not gonna give a...

01:22:16

Oh, you don't want to give away the store for your debate tomorrow, I guess. No, not that.

01:22:22

I take a... And please back away from the mouthpiece of whatever you're using.

01:22:29

You're vibrating. Most of the stuff I read on Revelation is more academia, so I'm not,

01:22:37

I'm moving, I move away from the apocalypse in that it's pinpointing dates and times and calendars and all that kind of stuff.

01:22:45

I don't, I don't think, I think that's what lends to its style in that it can be interpreted in so many different ways is,

01:22:59

I think, it's dealing with larger general themes than any specific particular time frame.

01:23:07

I know as, you know, a lot of people want to take, for example, the harlot as Jerusalem in 70

01:23:16

A .D., and it can only mean that, and it means nothing else. I've since shifted away from that kind of thinking, that it is exclusively, or I'm looking at these events as they unfold in Revelation as exclusively referring to these historical kind of things that you can pinpoint on a calendar.

01:23:37

So you believe in dual fulfillment, like... I don't like the phrase dual, I don't like dual fulfillment, so I don't like, yeah,

01:23:45

I try to move away from that kind of thing more than I see that Revelation is painting us, for us, a picture of the reign and rule of the

01:23:56

Lamb of God at the right hand of the Father. And he's painting us a picture in terms of a divine worship service, a heavenly worship service, and this is what it looks like.

01:24:09

Well, this is what history looks like. This is what is going on. In other words, this is what's going on behind the scenes.

01:24:18

And it gives us that kind of thing. Now, some people refer to that as idealist. I don't like idealist,

01:24:24

I don't like that kind of thing. You know, coming out of hyper -proterism,

01:24:29

I don't want to get pigeonholed into, like, you would say, ah, millennial, what does that mean? Right. Well, you know, these things are coming for more, for me, you know, like if I asked you, you know, you would say, ah, millennial, and then you and I would start talking,

01:24:46

I would find that you would have some nuances going on yourself that you wouldn't find typically under an ah, millennial.

01:24:53

Right. Most ah, millennialists I know are not partial preterists, and I am, so I... Yeah.

01:25:00

Yes, exactly. So there you go. So I don't want to paint the word ah, millennial, oh, well, ah, millennialism means partial preterism.

01:25:09

Well, not necessarily. Yeah, most of the time it doesn't. Right, right. Just as the word

01:25:15

Calvinist does not mean ah, the many things that that umbrella comes under when you say

01:25:21

Calvinist. Especially in the minds of those who have never read a work by a Calvinist in their lives and have only read...

01:25:27

I encounter that. They've only read polemical works against Calvinism and have developed caricatures in their minds that they think are true.

01:25:34

Now, let me ask you a question myself about that. Ken Gentry's book, The Beast of Revelation, actually convinced me that it was

01:25:43

Nero. What do you think about that interpretation that Ken has? Um, without getting myself in trouble.

01:25:54

He may rip that book off of the production line. This is actually neat, because it leads to the discussion at hand, which is how can you and Ken and you and Chris and you get

01:26:11

Gary and Chris and Eddie Piero and you get you all in the same room and you disagree on who the, so how in the world can you condemn with your disagreements, how can you condemn hyper -preterism?

01:26:22

And the answer is simple, is that Eddie, Chris, Gary, Ken, myself believe in the resurrection of the body at the last day and a new heaven and a new earth and a visible coming of the

01:26:33

Lord Jesus Christ who will restore all things. So we're in that conversation, we're at that table, the hyper -preterist is not at that table and is not having that conversation, because that conversation for him or her is past, it's redefined in a completely different way that when

01:26:56

I say new heavens and new earth to Gary DeMar or Ken Gentry or to yourself or to Eddie, we know what we're talking about because we're saying the same thing.

01:27:05

You say new heaven and new earth to a hyper -preterist, you're getting a completely different 180 degree removed approach.

01:27:14

And that's where it gets into trouble, because you're stepping outside of the bounds of what the church has always believed about these fundamental, basic bounds that we do not cross, and we don't cross them because we believe in the creeds are on par with scripture.

01:27:37

We believe that on these fundamental matters, the creeds are derived from scripture and have set our bounds, have set the boundaries.

01:27:50

This is Christianity, this is the historic faith. A Calvinist and an

01:27:55

Arminianist can have a discussion because neither one denies these fundamental things on eschatology, or a

01:28:03

Dissensationalist and a Reformed Baptist can have a conversation because they agree on resurrection of the body, the visible bodily coming of the

01:28:12

Lord. Because here's another thing, Chris, Michael Miano does not believe that Jesus Christ with human nature, body and soul, is at the right hand of the

01:28:21

Father today. Yeah, I've heard that there are full preterists who take that view, and some, perhaps a minority at this point, deny or obscure the bodily resurrection of Christ.

01:28:37

Yes, and they have to get rid of the body because they spiritualize resurrection of the body.

01:28:44

Right. So Jesus could not have ascended in his human form, in his human body, could not be glorified and ascended into the right hand of the

01:28:54

Father. Now I don't want to put words in Michael Miano's mouth, though, I don't know if he denies the resurrection of the physical body of Christ.

01:29:02

He doesn't deny the resurrection body, but he says explicitly that Jesus divested and destroyed the body of earth, the body in the days of his flesh, he is no longer in, he's no longer incarnate in that body.

01:29:16

That to me is, well, it just blows, it just, it undermines everything that the

01:29:26

Christian faith is built upon. Right. All right. We have Murray in Kinross, Scotland, who says,

01:29:36

I'm thinking of Matthew 24, verse 14, in two respects, and this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

01:29:50

First, it's abundantly clear that by AD 70, the gospel had not been preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations.

01:30:00

How would full preterists explain this, and I will read Murray's second question after you answer that one.

01:30:08

She's right. He's right. He's right. He's right. There's a

01:30:15

Roman world, and then you have Gaul, which is France, you had Upper Britain, of which they were making incursions into, you had the

01:30:23

Caucasus, which Rome never, you had the Silk Road, which went east of Parthia, which is as far as Rome went, but there was a whole other group of people in the

01:30:33

Orient that, if you read Strabo in the first century, they were very well familiar with. They knew who they were. What about these people?

01:30:41

This gospel was never preached. Are you telling me within 27 years, the gospel had been preached in the entire world of the known populations of people?

01:30:50

It's impossible. Paul never reached Spain. He never reached the southern tips of Africa.

01:30:56

There was no time for that. So, and I realize that partial preterists will say, well, the end was 70

01:31:06

AD, but see, when you do that, you're opening up a door to me, you're opening up a door to full preterism to come in and say, well, that's the end, and I think that there's a much larger message that Jesus is saying, or Matthew, rather, is saying, is that this gospel is to continue to be preached all the way up to the last day.

01:31:28

That's essentially what he's saying there. So that's our mission, that's our duty until the end of the age, and so I would agree with that question, totally.

01:31:39

And let me read now Murray's second question, and let's see here, oh, how did

01:31:46

I, accidentally delete Murray's second question, let me just, here it is. Secondly, in light of what has just been discussed, with all things going on and on, what exactly do full preterists understand by the end will come, and how do they think this was fulfilled in 80 -70?

01:32:09

Merely by the destruction of Jerusalem? The first part of the verse is global, but do they understand the last part to be only local?

01:32:22

Yeah, because the word world and all the earth, and the word all, and all that stuff becomes reduced to 70

01:32:31

AD, all that language becomes reduced, you have to reduce that language, minimize that language down, so that you don't take it literal.

01:32:41

But the only problem is, as Holger Neubauer stated in my debate last weekend, that he doesn't believe in original sin.

01:32:50

He doesn't believe that all men are sinners, that all men die as a result of sin and all this bunch of other stuff. And the reason why he doesn't is because the word all doesn't mean all the world, because in 70

01:33:01

AD he realizes that all the world literally was not judged, it was all covenantally.

01:33:06

And therefore, all men have fallen short of the glory of God does not mean all, every individual human being.

01:33:14

See, you see how you start doing this, and you start whittling down all of these passages, and you end up with something that's completely foreign to anything that you've ever heard before.

01:33:26

Now I accused Holger of being basically Pelagian, which he really didn't have a problem with.

01:33:33

He said that, because what I was doing is that Adam was just a normal human being who was going to die anyway, individually sinned against God, but his sin was not bequeathed to anybody else.

01:33:47

You're responsible for your own thing, you're your own Adam. And I'm like, well that's Pelagian, that's straight out of the playbook.

01:33:56

And he didn't have a problem with that, he looked at me like, what's the problem? I'm like, well, because it's

01:34:05

Romans 5, it's so obviously, see now I never as a full preterist, I was never operating in that paradigm like you said before.

01:34:12

I still was operating within, you know, one foot in evangelical theology and one foot in full preterist theology, and I was trying to bridge the gap to bring those two things together.

01:34:27

And I discovered that that cannot be done. You cannot maintain an evangelical

01:34:35

Christianity, whether it be Reformed or Methodist or, you know, conservative evangelical

01:34:42

Bible -believing Christianity, and remain a hyper -preterist at the same time.

01:34:47

That cannot be done. I'd like to see somebody try it. I've seen attempts of it being tried, but it cannot be done, which led to my conclusion that this is no more

01:34:58

Christian than Mormonism or Jehovah's Witnesses or David Koresh or any other Jim Jones, you know, just make your own stuff up, read your

01:35:06

Bible, you don't need the creeds, you don't need commentaries, you don't need history, just you and your

01:35:11

Bible, make up whatever you want to, and at what point do you draw the line? That was my other question.

01:35:19

When you deny the continuing incarnation of Christ, when you deny progressive sanctification, when you deny resurrection of the body, you deny last day, you deny the visible coming of the

01:35:29

Lord, you deny new heavens and new earth, at what point do you, and yet you still want to call yourself a

01:35:37

Christian, when you've denied key, fundamental, core things that have historically defined the

01:35:43

Christian faith? So my question to the hyper -preterist is, at what point do you draw the line?

01:35:49

What makes you different from a Mormon? Because they believe in Jesus, do they not?

01:35:55

They believe in the Bible, do they not? And they believe in the Holy Spirit, and they believe in God the Father.

01:36:00

They mention all this vocabulary, it's like Walter Martin said, but when you ask them to define their terms, that is where you run into the problems.

01:36:10

We all use the same terms. You know, it's, who do you say that I am?

01:36:18

Right. And there's, that's the problem. So it's not enough for me that the hyper -preterist says, well

01:36:24

I believe in Jesus, I believe in resurrection, I believe in the Bible, I believe in salvation and grace by faith.

01:36:31

You know, Chris, ask them what they mean by those terms. Right. You're going to hear something that's going to really cause your ears to burn.

01:36:38

Right, and in fairness, we've got to point out that the Mormons are polytheists, even though they might not describe themselves that way, they believe in an infinite number of gods because they believe that they, if they are faithful Mormons, will become gods of their own planet, so obviously there are differences the way

01:36:58

I'm assuming most hyper -preterists view monotheism and so on.

01:37:03

Right, right. So we don't want to give the wrong idea that they believe that. Oh, no. My point there is that they use phrases that are

01:37:13

Christian phrases. Right, right. It's just when you ask them to define those Christian phrases, yeah, you get populated planets and, you know, but I asked one hyper -preterist,

01:37:24

I said, well if we sin now, why do we still sin? If I'm perfect and raised from the dead now, will

01:37:29

I continue to sin in heaven? And his answer was, yes. Jeez, what kind of a place is that to look forward to?

01:37:39

Well, I'm not, you know, heaven is just more of the same old, same old. Wow.

01:37:45

This is the kind of thing that you're getting because once you've thrown off history as any kind of boundary marker, then you're free to think pretty much whatever you want to do, wherever the road leads.

01:38:01

And these people go down these roads, and I've watched lives destroyed. I've watched, there's a new faction within hyper -preterism called

01:38:11

Israel Only, and these are hyper -preterists, and what they believe is that the gospel only applied to ethnic

01:38:19

Israel. That was all wrapped up in 70 AD. There is no church today. There is nothing.

01:38:25

There's no, nothing. Basically, it's an agnostic Christianity that's advocating that 70

01:38:32

AD literally wrapped up the entire thing. There's no necessity for church gatherings, any of it, even reading your

01:38:40

Bible. And basically, it's ended up in this kind of universalism kind of thing, and this is a growing movement that preterists, hyper -preterists like Michael Miano is trying to combat.

01:38:52

He's actually arguing against this extremity within hyper -preterism. Of course, since he's a pastor.

01:38:58

They have an extremity within hyper -preterism like hyper -hyper -preterism. Right. It's ironic that there are similarities that you just mentioned with hyper -dispensationalists, although the hyper -dispensationalists believe in the perpetuity of the church until the end of all things on earth.

01:39:18

They are no longer conducting the ordinances of the church, and there's some other similarities that you mentioned.

01:39:26

I'm going to read a question for you before we go to our final break, and you can answer it when we return.

01:39:33

We have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who says, I was surprised that a partial preterist friend of mine said that Revelations chapter 7 verse 9,

01:39:46

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the

01:39:58

Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands.

01:40:06

This person said that this was fulfilled already, and he's not a full preterist.

01:40:11

That troubles me because I don't believe that every nation on the earth has yet been evangelized, so therefore the elect from out of those groups could not be a part of that number yet.

01:40:22

Anyway, we're going to get to our final break. You can answer that when we come back. If anybody wants to join us with a question of their own, now's the time to do it.

01:40:31

We're running out of time. Our email address, once again, is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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01:52:39

This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, we've got about a little less than 10 minutes with our guest,

01:52:45

Sam Frost, who is discussing hyperpreterism, and we're also promoting a debate that is taking place in Malvern, Long Island tomorrow night at 7 at the

01:52:55

Church of the Intercessor. He is debating Michael Miano, who is a proponent or advocate of full preterism.

01:53:04

If you'd like to join us on the air, do it quickly, because we're going to be out of time before you know it. Our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

01:53:10

chrisarnzen at gmail .com, and Sam Frost, as you may remember, before the break,

01:53:19

C .J. in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, was troubled by the fact that a partial preterist, not a full preterist, said that Revelation 7 -9 is already completely fulfilled, and that states, and obviously that would imply, if you believe that's completely fulfilled, that the entire earth and every single tribe and language has been evangelized, which even missionaries that I have spoken with would say that that has not yet occurred in a full way.

01:54:03

And your response? Well, I again agree.

01:54:08

I recently went, visited my son who works there in Washington, D .C., and we went to the

01:54:14

Bible Museum that they had recently built there, and there's one section there,

01:54:21

I think it's on the third floor, where it shows the evangelized nations where the gospel has actually been published in print, and here you have, of course,

01:54:29

Wycliffe Bible translators and things of that nature. And then, you know, which was hundreds, just hundreds of books, were this representation going on on this large wall.

01:54:40

And then you step over and you see the tribes and nations of indigenous peoples on the earth that have no written

01:54:48

Bible. And it's a lot. And it's staggering when you see it, when you see it in the way that they've presented it.

01:54:56

And, you know, the whole mission of Wycliffe Bible translators is to do just that. And I think that that is exactly the impetus of what has, even among what is little known, you mentioned among people that read caricatures of Reformed, but you go among the early, in America, where we were translating the

01:55:22

Native Americans that were here, we were bringing their language in written form to published gospels.

01:55:27

This is at the Bible Museum where I was. I did not know this, of how much missionary activity was involved among it, of bringing their language.

01:55:35

Now, these are languages that the English had never heard before. And yet we're bringing it into a written language for them in order to translate the

01:55:45

Bible. We're talking 17th century kind of stuff here. I was blown away by this. And these were Puritans.

01:55:51

These were Calvinists that were doing this kind of stuff. Why are they doing this?

01:55:57

Well, to publish the gospel as a testimony in all the nations of whom

01:56:04

God has known from all of time and to bring those in, until what?

01:56:10

See, when you leave off that until what, and you say that that's 70

01:56:15

A .D., then where are we heading? What are we doing? You take purpose out of it.

01:56:21

You take meaning out of it. And for me, the passage that in Revelation 7,

01:56:29

I like to think that I'm in that snapshot of people that he's seeing there, this innumerable multitude from every tribe, language, and nation.

01:56:37

And somewhere in that vision that he saw, Chris, your head's in there and my head's in there somewhere in that picture.

01:56:45

Amen. Yeah, and that to me is inspiring. And to me, the hyper -preterist message doesn't have that inspiration, which is why this movement has fragmented into the divisions of which it has so rapidly, because you've disconnected from history.

01:57:05

And now I've got to ask you a very important question. Why is the hyper -preterist heresy damning, other than, and I know you've already indicated reasons throughout the broadcast, but really summarize it to its core.

01:57:17

Why is this different than the differences we have between pre -millennial, amillennial, and post -millennial, and mid -wrath, pre -wrath, rapture, and mid -shrib, and all this?

01:57:27

This is different. Why? And why is it damning? I think because it denies many, many fundamental core things that define

01:57:37

Christianity, but its ultimate aspect that I find freely admitted among these hyper -preterists is that Jesus is no longer body and soul, human being incarnate, glorified body in heaven.

01:57:51

I find that increasingly being denied. That to me is the linchpin.

01:57:56

That's the one that did it for me. Now, if you want to tweak eschatology and have some, that's great.

01:58:02

But now you're hitting Christology. Now you're hitting into issues that, if Jesus is no longer continuing incarnate human being, one of my brothers in heaven at God's right hand,

01:58:13

I give up. I'm done. Right. He's no longer the God -man mediating for us.

01:58:19

Absolutely. And you should hear how they get around that, because I point that verse out. The God -man is the mediator who is the mediator.

01:58:26

The man, Christ Jesus. And they have to redefine man. Well, man doesn't need a body.

01:58:33

He's a covenant man. He's a spirit. And it just gets around the obvious. To me, they're trying to get around the obvious.

01:58:41

And it's damning to the faith now, because now the question, who do you say that I am?

01:58:47

You're giving me a different Jesus. And don't forget, folks, tomorrow night,

01:58:53

Saturday, May 4th, 7 p .m., Sam Frost will be debating hyper -preterist Michael Meano on these issues at the

01:59:00

Church of the Intercessor in Malvern, Long Island, New York. And if you need more information, go to intercessorchurch .com,

01:59:10

intercessorchurch .com. You can also look up Sam Frost on Facebook. I want to thank you so much,

01:59:16

Sam, for being my guest today. I look forward to your return. Perhaps we can talk about how the debate went when you come back.

01:59:22

I want to thank everybody at the Church of the Intercessor that helped me prepare for this interview. I want to wish you all a very safe and happy and blessed weekend and Lord's Day.

01:59:32

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives, Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.