May 3, 2019 Show with Samuel M. Frost on “Are Hyper-preterists Our Brethren in Christ? When Eschatology Becomes a Matter of Salvation”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown,

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It's iron sharpens iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us.

Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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have in view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

And now here's your host Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth

who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Friday on this third day of May

2019 and I am thrilled to have a returning guest today Who is going to be speaking

on a very serious and important issue?

Not that we don't typically have serious and important issues on the program but this is

an issue that may be something a topic that's Unfamiliar to many of our

listeners.

We are going to be discussing hyperpreterism.

And to discuss that today is Samuel M. Frost.

He was one of the leading figures defending and promoting and Proselytizing

Hyperpreterism, of course, he didn't call it that at that time he would just have called it preterism or full preterism

or realized eschatology or a number of nicknames that this

eschatological view has been given he is also the author of the book why I

left full preterism and our specific title today is our Hyper -preterists our

brethren in Christ when eschatology becomes a matter of salvation.

We're also going to be discussing an upcoming debate.

That's actually going to be held.

God willing tomorrow in Malvern Long Island at the Church of the Intercessor.

This is going to be a debate that our guest is having With Michael Miano

who is a pastor on Long Island, New York who promotes This view

of eschatology that my guest and I and many others in the Reformed faith and elsewhere believe to be

a dangerous heresy.

But this debate is going to be held tomorrow May 4th at 7 p .m At Church of the Intercessor in

Malvern Long Island, New York and we'll give you more details in a bit.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio Sam Frost.

Chris.

Good to talk to you again.

Well, I thank you for being on the program with very little notice.

I in fact, I just found out about the debate maybe two or three days ago at the most and.

I.

Was thrilled to be able to get Sam on with very little notice because I think so highly of

Sam.

And I also think this is an important Subject that we are discussing today

Sam if you could even though you have been on the program before you gave us your entire testimony.

There are many people I'm sure who are hearing you for the first time on our interpreters on radio so I'd like you to give a

summary of How you got into?

Hyperpreterism.

Also, as I said before it's it's called by its advocates things like just preterism or full

preterism or realized Eschatology or covenant eschatology many other things, but how did you

first?

Hear about it.

And what was your eschatological view at the time you heard about it?

And how were you led into it?

Oh, well, actually, let's look let's step back.

Let's step back a couple of paces.

Define it define Hyperpreterism and I know that there is not a monolithic group.

They're not all identical but those who advocate it, but if you could just give us a

Summary definition that would be generally held universally by all who would be in the camp of full

preterism.

Taking to

the end

age

70 ad and the

realization

and that's

the

phrase

you'll see all

these

things and so in

Matthew

24

to

1980s.

Well, that's your sleep right.

Everyone else.

And and brother.

I don't know if you are.

Speaking too closely to your mouthpiece or something.

But you're over modulating a little bit and and I have turned down As far as I as far as I can turn

down everything on my end.

I have turned down the volumes, but you.

Perhaps if you I usually have the opposite problem with my guests.

They're too quiet.

So if there's anything you could do to back away from the mouth.

Yeah, or something because it's it's it's a bit It's I'm fine with it, but it may be a little annoying to our

listeners on the radio, okay.

Right now you sound fine, right?

Okay, perfect right this second anyway.

Now from what I remember from our last interview You and I have in common the fact

that we are both partial preterists, which is a completely

biblical and orthodox and Faithful

Eschatology to have.

I happen to be of the Amillennial stripe optimistic on millennial and partial

preterist and I believe you may be a post millennial.

I would be on millennial.

Oh, you would.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well see, this is where the problem comes in because just like with hyper Calvinism and

Let me fill you in folks for those of you who are not theologically reformed Hyper Calvinism is not the

belief in the five points of Calvinism, which many Non or anti Calvinists

will say they will say anybody who believes especially in limited atonement.

An unconditional election.

They will say oh that person is a hyper Calvinist.

No, that's historic Biblically faithful Calvinism, but there are those that are

I believe dangerously heretical Who take a good thing too far and they start

isogene ing things in the rest of the scripture that.

Remove.

The other aspect of biblical truth when you take in consideration the whole counsel of God the hyper Calvinist

will tend to take away or nullify All of the biblical truth all of the

texts that teach that man is responsible they may even take away the

Texts that teach that man does Have in a certain context a free will.

He has a free will to choose according to his nature and his desires.

He is not forced against his will either to believe in Christ or to sin.

But he Cannot in the deadness of his sin Savingly believe upon

Christ.

So he needs a new heart that is given to him by Christ and Has a new spirit within him or in

order to believe and obey God.

But in the same way you have a Hyper -preterist movement that sees

some truths that many in the body of Christ do not see.

They see nearly any prophecy in the Bible as being a an event in our

future that is yet to be fulfilled and I believe that that the majority of The body

of Christ whether they be dispensationalists or otherwise are in error with some of the texts

that Sam and I and a quite a number of people would believe are already

fulfilled or have already taken place, but the hyper -preterist goes too far just

like the hyper Calvinist does and Let's also get our vocabulary straight because as I said before

When our guests or should I say our listeners? Meet a hyper -preterist.

They are never going to call themselves that and one of the dangers that one of the dangers is is that

many partial preterists call themselves simply preterists and Hyper

-preterists also simply very often call themselves preterists without any kind

of an adjective to further describe that.

Calvin.

The editors of make note that he

was said

just

became

already happening.

Never

was it used by the time of 70

in

1980s.

Read

letters.

Yeah, there's even an old.

Everywhere.

Yeah, and there's also different kinds of partial preterists for instance.

Yeah, two of the leading figures today teaching a partial preteristic view are Gary DeMar

and Ken Gentry and even though they are both friends and Both heavily promote each other's

ministries and books.

They don't even agree on everything in regarded All right, the preterist view.

In fact, they disagree on Matthew 24 and other things.

Yeah.

Right, but it's still.

Right, well, I.

Continue to call myself a partial preterist because I don't want that fine I don't want anybody to think for a second that

I am a fuller hyper preterist.

Because I believe it is that dangerous and heretical and Some of

the other nicknames just so our listeners know to keep their ears and eyes open

for those in this camp of Hyper preterism they would I know that they sometimes call

themselves Realized believers and realized eschatology and and covenant

eschatology.

Do you any do you know any other phrases that they use?

It's

a pretty

that's

not

is nothing like a

rise desk at all.

Okay, so that

I have any problems

using that turn?

Yeah, we don't report.

I never had a problem when I was a full preterist.

I never had problems with that.

Okay.

All right.

Well, and by the way, just another reminder if you could back away from the mouthpiece.

I'm not okay.

Okay.

Well before we go into greater depth as far as the primary texts of Scripture

Championed by the hyper preterists and why this issue is

a salvific issue or a an issue that turns eschatology

into an issue that I believe brothers in Christ

Can have great differences on eschatology, but this is this issue turns

Eschatology in my opinion into a matter of spiritual life and death, but

Before we go into all of those things Let's just talk for a minute about the debate since

it is tomorrow and we want to give people plenty of time To make plans to attend this tomorrow Saturday

May 4th 7 p .m At the Church of the Intercessor in Malvern Long Island, New York the

Church of the Intercessor I believe is a member of the charismatic Episcopal denomination.

They they have been around for quite a long time.

I remember many years ago.

I had friends when I was still living on Long Island Who were members there and they used to go to the home

of my friend or should I say my friends Bob and Mary Lou posh? who lived in Baldwin

Long Island.

Bob was a And still is a Roman Catholic and he used to invite me and other

evangelicals to his home so that we would eat drink and argue and that actually gave rise

that actually gave rise to the Protestant versus Roman Catholic debates that I arranged on

Long Island for a decade that all came to be as a

result of Bob posh being a Roman Catholic his wife was at the time a member of

the Church of the Intercessor but she later converted to Catholicism, but they would have I would

say Close to 20 people from Church of the Intercessor at these barbecues and also in the

wintertime Indoor parties that they would have so I have been aware of This congregation

for quite a long time.

I remember when Craig Bates was the pastor and I'd like to give a shout out to

Rick Zeppernick, I believe he may still be a member there I'm not sure but he would be at these parties every

year.

But anyway, this debate is going to be on the specific theme is the

coming of Christ and resurrection of the dead and the

fullness of the new heaven and new earth Past or future if you could

explain that in a little bit more detail.

Um.

Again, I hope I'm far away from the mic here.

Oh, you're still modulating a little bit.

But we got to do what we got to do.

There's nothing I can do on my end, right?

We would have to radically do something to that phrase

and in definition,

you know

a one has to

radically

redefine the

understanding in terms of a

they get we got that because it seems like the New Testament things and

I know that you can watch a

We're not religious for spiritual.

And so again that kind of spiritualizing is it's kind of in the air today.

People who don't know better can fall into that and thinking well, what's wrong?

What's wrong with spiritualizing the new heavens in the new earth or spiritually in the kingdom?

And that's where I

get this idea of a literal

and began to float the idea that that came when the temple

was sacked by the Romans and all and keep in mind

All that the temple represent right

and all that the temple represented was the old

Falling of the old world.

What would be the coming in of the new world of?

The new and it's under that

umbrella this kind of theological

Definings redefining actually redefining would

be a body Body

of Christ is raised from the old man that kind of

stuff.

That's how we do it.

That's and.

And I'm interested in hearing your take just initially hearing this

because it's it you have to admit on the surface.

If you didn't know any better, there is a ring of plausibility to it.

You could see where somebody who doesn't know anybody was like, oh, yeah.

All right, and that's where drawing people

in because and then you know back coupled with this thing.

So all these things are fulfilled.

Well, how do you fulfill new heavens a new earth?

How do you fulfill?

How do you fulfill?

Well, maybe we had all those definite call

you mentioned cases use, you

know.

We're because all of our terms in terms of covenant from

Old Covenant Old world old man old body.

Old life in Adam to new life new covenant new man.

And that's where we're able to use that language

that's to

you.

It did to this young theologian back in the 19th.

End of the 80s early 90s.

And forgive me to me and forgive me for if I.

If you said this and I forgot.

Where were you.

Theologically and eschatologically when you first heard about hyper preterism, I mean.

Back in the late 80s a gang in Tyler, Texas from

James B.

Jordan David Chilton Gary North and none of those men are hyper preterist by the way.

Make sure our listeners know that they are partial preterist, right?

And in Dominion

press Ken Gentry was with

them and King.

Was he already a

hyper

preterist

at that time?

Yes, a king had been doing this since.

1969 70 71.

He's kind of like considered the grandfather of this movement, isn't he?

King is the most.

He's the

most if you really want a good grasp of it.

That's the book that I recommend there.

That's if you really want to understand the inner the detailed inner workings of what's going on

here.

But I'm assuming you wouldn't want anybody but perhaps a more well -read Searching.

Yeah, well read Christian who is solid in and firmly rooted in historic

confessional Christianity rather than some new Novice who's just going to be

blown every way every direction by.

Because now I see many many

men wasn't the

Church of Christ right.

And Barton stone and Alexander Campbell Alexander Campbell

rest of anything formal religious, right?

Great and also also to clarify the vast majority

of Ministers and members of that movement the restoration movement Church of Christ movement.

They are not full preterists.

They in fact Many of them are Very fiery in their

opposition to this and would join us in saying that this is dangerous and heretical.

Yes.

Today I would in

the movement speaking at over 25 conference in

three to two thousand and

getting a field for that.

But largely I would say right that

would be these the so -called.

And and in fact, in fact the In many ways hyper preterism

militates against the hallmarks of the Church of Christ because it Really reduces the importance

of the church and sometimes Negates its existence whereas the Church of Christ exalts

the importance of the church and their ordinances Even even on many occasions viewing them as salvific.

Yeah.

And whereas Baptism being one of them right and then where you have many who are full preterists not even

practicing the ordinances anymore.

I'm in the mid mid 2000s.

Is what you do show forth the Lord

the Lord's death anymore in

the

donated anymore.

So so basically going back to my original question about where you where you I'm assuming then you

were either a non -millennial but at the time or a post -millennial who discovered partial preterism and

became fascinated by it and then made the unfortunate leap from there into

full preterism.

Well, I've been a church all my life and I was raised in a this

four square gospel church.

You know the Holiness Movement Pentecostal Assembly God Church of God all about that more

or less except growing up hearing that

seeing the 70 AD in many of the new

tennis that the other hands or

falls together.

So Matthew 24 was

mine, but if you become a

preterist in the Gary DeMar sense, it's very easy.

The only real difficulty you have

is no one.

Well, and then also the indwelling of the Holy Spirit maybe.

And I don't want people to think that our

friend Gary DeMar is somehow dangerous because he's Teaching something even though I have my

disagreements with him.

I believe I believe that most of what he is teaching is accurate.

But it's just like Calvinism, I don't I don't renounce Calvinism or reform theology

or the teachings of sovereign grace?

Oh, no, because there are hyper Calvinists.

In fact many people Who are young in the faith

who become Calvinists unfortunately?

Become those that are nicknamed in the cage stage of

Calvinism or cage stage Calvinism because they run wild with these truths and

exaggerate them and really really in many ways become hyper at least

temporarily become hyper Calvinists and Damn, everyone to hell who does not exactly

agree with them and in any.

I know that I've said this on my show before But I thought it was kind of humorous when Some friends of mine who

have thankfully matured in their faith And are biblically sound today in their

Calvinism, but when they first became Calvinists They they pulled me aside after a worship service very

angry That the pastor had said choose this day whom you may serve and I

said that's in the Bible by the way Because he said choose they they went right there

went bananas.

But but we have to be careful not to think that just because something can lead to a

serious heresy that it's not true Before the person makes the extra biblical or

unbiblical or anti -biblical leap.

Yeah, and let me

undermine that he's doing and

Gary takes Gary takes his own work with

Gary you know would invite questions and Gary is Somebody that

you know, if you've got a better

argument bring it bring it republish my book.

Oh great.

Yeah, so and gentry and I have our differences.

Which which are you know have but

nonetheless I hold in he and me.

You know,

I know you have to take a some breaks or whatever.

Yeah, I think something that I want to talk about that.

How is it that you can have conversations with somebody like gentry who may or tomorrow who may go a little

fucking you have a converse?

Right and and to keep in mind folks that.

And I think you misspoke there.

They don't go further than the hyper preterists.

They go Further than you and many partial preterist.

But and and because of the fact that they both champion Post -millennialism

that that is a key difference between a hyper preterist and a post -millennialist because the post -millennial is believe.

That there's a reason that it's called post -millennialism.

The post means that Christ is going to return after the millennium.

But anyway, we're gonna go to a our break right now because I also want you to remind me and

Our listeners or perhaps inform our listeners for the first time.

What was the straw that broke the camel's back that made you leave?

Hyper preterism.

And then we really have to go into why this is dangerous.

Why is this difference?

Why is this difference different than the difference we have with somebody who believes in a pre -wrath

rapture or somebody who's pre -millennial or.

Somebody who is a pessimistic on millennialist rather than an optimistic on millennialist.

And we could go on and on and on with differences that genuine brethren have.

Where we don't feel threatened By one another and we don't think that the gospel is in jeopardy.

By these difference there's a difference here with the hyper preterism that makes a difference in eschatology

dangerous and damning.

But we have to go to our our break right now.

If anybody would like to join us on the air of the question of your own.

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Have a great day.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in our guests today for the full two hours with about 90 minutes to go is Sam Frost.

Who was once a leading proponent of what is called full preterism as

What is called hyper preterism by those outside of that camp?

Because we believe it is a very dangerous and heretical and damning view of

eschatology.

Sam is the author of why I left full preterism and today we are discussing our hyper

preterists our brethren in Christ.

When eschatology becomes a matter of salvation.

And in fact.

Tomorrow tomorrow night.

That's Saturday, May 4th at 7 p .m Sam is going to be debating

Michael Miano who is an advocate of full preterism and that is going to be held at the Church of the

Intercessor in Malvern, Long Island and I know that the website

for the Church of the Intercessor is Intercessorchurch .com

Intercessorchurch .com, but I don't believe that they have anything about the debate on that website.

Do you know a place Sam where our listeners can go to to get all of the details they need

for the conference?

Okay, and look up Sam Frost on Facebook, yes.

Okay, or Church of the Intercessor or something along those lines, yeah, I know that their website.

I don't see anything on their website that mentions the debate, but it but it will give you all the

Directions and things like that that you need and that is once again Intercessorchurch .com,

maybe if Eddie Pirro is listening.

He can make sure that Church of the Intercessor Gets an ad for your debate up there quickly so

that people can find the information at the church website.

Well.

Once again, if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And.

Please give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And by the way, we invite listeners who radically disagree with our guest if you

have a question of your own whether you are a full preterist yourself, or I know that there are many

in the premillennial and Postmillennial and amillennial camps

that are very vociferously opposed to any kind of preterism and

So that that's what makes the matters more complicated because you and I are partial preterists.

So there are just just like with Calvinism.

There are people who despise any kind of Calvinism Let alone hyper Calvinism and they mislabel

Authentic historic biblical Calvinism as hyper Calvinism.

So we have this very confusing world that we live in.

But anyway.

Now let's go to the part where I was mentioning before the break the straw that broke the camel's back with you that said.

All right.

I've got to get out of here.

I am no longer a Full preterist.

I am renouncing this.

This is really spooky stuff.

Let me get out of here.

What exactly happened?

I was reading a

by Gordon Clark the philosophy reform philosopher Gordon Clark.

And it's just inadvertently it wasn't the point.

I was reading it but he had mentioned the.

And I had known this before it's just you know.

How you know things before they just don't connect and he had

mentioned of course in the Westminster Confession where it talks about the number of the elections of whose number God

so knows

really.

Never ends that is the

kingdom of Christ.

Tree looks like and it will go on

history never ends the

issue.

You know you die and you go to

heaven history goes on forever.

Creation that goes waste

and you have an ever -increasing number.

God knows all this people

could always add one more dimension.

Yeah, I began to present that material

and the reactions I was getting back.

Were less than satisfying because now I was being told that I had to believe in it.

But this is actually what we were using against those who were saying that near doesn't mean near it's always

near, you know.

And that's a paradox and we were arguing against that and now we were using that same argument.

Oh, you

know reading

John said raise

them who

believes in

me.

It can't

be a infinite number right and.

That just John 6 and the word last day and I will raise them and that

you can see where the connect.

It's just like a lightning bolt.

Maybe it was that I

don't

and from there.

The AD couldn't be because of the all

quickly like Domino and I realized I had a problem.

I assume that you were at the time that you were a hyper preterist you were still

in some way a functioning Calvinist and I think that your Shock

that your shock there would have been more understandable being a Calvinist because yeah,

obviously an Arminian hyper preterist or a Pelagian hyper preterist or

you know, those that come out of a Typical Church of Christ background might not be troubled

all that much by that, but obviously it contradicts historic reform theology, which.

Now is he

is he still somebody who practices the ordinances of the church and so on.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah, because.

Because there is a division amongst hyper preterists even those from out of the Church of Christ who abandoned who

abandoned baptism in the Lord's.

Supper.

We're going to our midway break.

I know that this all came up very quickly again, but this is our Longer

than normal break because grace life radio in Lake City, Florida Requires of us a longer break in the middle because they

air their own Public service announcements and commercials in order to localize iron sharpens iron radio to Lake

City, Florida While we air our own commercials that are heard globally.

So please use this time wisely write down questions for Sam Frost.

Any question on eschatology will be fine.

Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

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Oh, and let me just ask Sam Frost a question before I go to the break all and you can answer it when we return our

friend Eddie Pirro Who is from the Church of the Intercessor?

He wants to let our listeners know that he attached information With a link

to your profile that has information on the debate on the Church of the Intercessor Website but

he also wants to ask the question how much of the book of Revelation would you say is fulfilled and you can answer?

That.

Well, you get you're gonna have about 10 minutes to think about that.

You got you got about 10 minutes to think about that because that's about how long our break is.

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And before we return to our guest Sam Frost, we are discussing hyper -praterism.

We do have some Important announcements to make involving upcoming events.

The first of which is one we have already been mentioning tomorrow night.

That's Saturday May 4th at 7 p .m Sam will be debating Michael Miano who is

a proponent or advocate of full preterism that is going to be taking place at the

Church of the Intercessor in Malvern Long Island, New York and If you want more details go to the

website of the Church of the Intercessor Which is intercessor church .com

Intercessor church .com.

You can also go on Facebook and type in Sam Frost F as in Frank R OST

Sam Frost and you will have the information that you need about this debate on hyper -praterism

between our guests Samuel M Frost and Michael Miano.

Then my Iron sharpens iron radio pastors luncheon is coming up in a

few weeks Thursday, May 23rd 11 a .m To 2 p .m. At the Carlisle fire -and -rescue banquet hall

right here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

My guest speaker is dr. Tony Costa professor of apologetics in Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

He's going to be speaking on the theme the Dead Sea Scrolls and how they vindicate the reliability of the Bible.

This is absolutely free to all pastors and elders and I believe they're the same office by the way

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If you are a man and ministry leadership, you are welcome to attend.

This is an event that my precious late wife began in the 1990s because she saw how many

friends I had who were ministers and she wanted to treat them to a wonderful time of rest relaxation and

fun and feasting and She came up with the idea and I've been doing it ever since and even after she

went home to be with the Lord for Eternity I've been doing it in her memory in her honor.

So I hope that you could come send me an email to Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com and put pastors launching in

the subject line and You'll be not only getting fed for free and hearing an excellent message by

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Tony Costa is heading to Long Island, New York.

I will be accompanying him to Long Island, New York for speaking engagements.

He has there everyone are.

Everyone is welcome to these events whether you are a man woman or child.

They include the New High Park Baptist Church of New High Park, Long Island, New York.

They include Waiting River Baptist Church and waiting River, Long Island, New York.

Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York and Missio Church in Ridge, Long Island, New York.

These events will take place between Friday the 24th of May and Sunday

the 26th of May if you want the full speaking itinerary of dr Tony Costa send me an email to Chris Arnson at

gmail .com and put dr. Tony Costa and the subject line.

I will email you the full itinerary with all the information that you need to attend then as soon as dr Cost

is finished on Long Island.

I am going to be heading back to Pennsylvania to Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania.

More specifically to the Elizabethtown College for the banner of truth East Coast ministers conference on the theme.

I believe in the Holy Spirit.

Speakers include Jeff Kingswood Terry Johnson David Vaughn Steve Nichols Michael Morales and Chad Vegas.

That is from Tuesday the 28th of May through Thursday the 30th of May at the

Elizabethtown College Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania.

If you are a man in ministry leadership, you are welcome to register at banner of truth org

banner of truth org.

And then scroll down to East Coast ministers conference, and I hope to see you there.

Then coming up in December on the 19th and 20th of December I will be

heading out to my old stomping grounds, New York for the foundations conference, which is

a conference of sermon audio .com and.

This is going to be held Thursday and Friday December 19th and 20th in Manhattan.

And the speakers are always extraordinary and this December is no Exception.

They include dr. Steven J. Lawson whose voice you heard or hear every day.

Promoting New Covenant Church NYC one of our sponsors.

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Go to the foundations conference calm.

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And I would do it quickly because they can only hold about a little less than 200 people in their venue.

Remember, it's Thursday and Friday December 19th and 20th in New York City, then I'm heading out to

Georgia once again.

To the g3 conference that's in January.

For.

G3 2020 g3 stands for gospel grace and glory and

Specifically the dates are January 16th, which is a Thursday through January 18th.

Which is a Saturday at the Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia, which is a

suburb of Atlanta.

Typically over 5 ,000 people attended this magnificent event and I will once again be manning

an iron sharpens iron radio Exhibitors booth so I hope to see you there.

The speakers include.

Kosti Hinn Who is believe it or not the nephew of the notorious charlatan

Benny Hinn and Kosti has Renounced his word of faith background.

He has renounced it as dangerous and damning heresy.

And he is now a cessationist and a reformed Baptist and he is on the roster of speakers.

David Miller is on the roster.

David Miller is also a profound preacher.

Derek Thomas who is obviously no stranger to anyone who is reformed alive today.

Derek Thomas is one of the most Phenomenal writers and speakers in the body of Christ my

friend.

Dr. James R White of Alpha Omega Ministries is going to be speaking there.

Joel Beeky Who's also been a friend of mine going back to the early 1990s?

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Josh Bice who is the founder of the g3 conference?

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That's also the email address to you where you could send in a question for our guest today Samuel M Frost

author of why I left full preterism.

We are discussing our hyper preterists our brethren in Christ when eschatology becomes a matter of salvation and

We are promoting the debate tomorrow night in Malvern, Long Island on full preterism.

Send us an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

And as you remember probably Sam our mutual friend Eddie Pirro Who is

a member of the Church of the Intercessor who is actually a major part of this debate you're involved in.

He asked the question how much of the book of Revelation is already fulfilled in your humble opinion.

I assume he is.

I assume he is.

Is that really the best answer you're gonna give Eddie's.

I'm not gonna give up.

Oh, you don't want to give away the store for your debate tomorrow, I guess.

Please back away back away from the mouthpiece of whatever you're using.

You're vibrating.

I'm moving ups and that it's pinpointing dates and

times and calendars and all

that's what lends to it and

that it can be interpreted.

For example the harlot

and it can only I'm

I've that kind of thing that

you can pinpoint on a

calendar.

So you believe in dual fulfillment?

Like I don't like the phrase do I don't like dual fulfillment.

So I don't okay.

Yeah, I try to move away from that revelation is painting

the right hand of the father in terms

of a divine worship service.

This is what history looks like.

This is what is going on.

But in other words, this is what's going on behind the scenes.

Okay, now it gives us that kind of a thing.

If you've got some people refer to that as idealist I don't like.

I don't like idealist.

I don't you know coming out of Hyperparameterism, it's I don't

want to get pigeonholed into like you would say I'm a millennial.

What does that mean?

Right?

You know, these things are coming for more for me.

You know.

Like if I asked you, you know.

You would say I'm a millennial and you and I would start talking you would have a

some nuances going on yourself that you wouldn't.

Find typically under an.

I'm a millennial right.

Most I'm a linealists.

I know are not partial preterists and I am so I yeah.

Yes, exactly, so there

you go, most of the time

it doesn't.

Calvinist is not the many.

Let's be especially in the minds of those who have never read a work by a Calvinist in their lives and have only read.

They've only read polemical works against Calvinism and have developed caricatures and then their minds that they think

are true.

Now.

Let me ask you a question myself about that Ken Gentry's book the Beast of Revelation

actually convinced me that it was Nero.

What do you think about that interpretation that Ken has?

He may rip that book off of the production line.

We talk.

This is actually neat because it leads to this

to the how can you and Ken and you

and Chris alone?

Can you condemn.

How can you condemn Gary.

Can myself

last day in a new earth and a visible coming of the Lord?

Jesus Christ amen will restore all things.

So we're in that but that table

and is not having that conversation.

Completely different way.

Heavens and new earth.

To Gary tomorrow or Ken Gentry or to yourself or to Eddie.

We know what we're talking about because we're saying the same thing.

You say new heaven a new earth to a completely different 180

degree and that's where it gets into.

Because you're you you're stepping of what the church has always

believed about these Fundamental

that we do not cross and we don't cross them because we believe

in that on these Fundamental matters the creeds are derived.

Right.

This is Christianity.

That's been an Arminian.

This can happen because neither one denies these fundamental things on

Eschatology.

Michael Miano does not

believe that Jesus Christ with human nature body and father today.

Yeah, I've heard that there are Full preterists who take that view and

and some Perhaps a minority at this point.

Deny or obscure the the bodily resurrection of Christ.

Yes spiritual eyes.

Right, so Jesus could not have ascended in his human body could not be

glorified.

No, I don't want to put more.

I don't want to put.

I don't want to put words in Michael Miano's mouth, though.

I don't.

I don't know if he denies the resurrection of the physical body.

Resurrection body, but he says explicitly that Jesus the belly in

the days of his flesh He is no longer in he's no longer incarnate in that body.

Thing.

Yeah, right.

We have Murray in Kinross Scotland.

Who says I'm thinking of Matthew 24 verse 14 in two respects?

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness To all the nations and then

to the end and then the end will come.

First it's abundantly clear that by 8070 the gospel had not Been preached

in all the world as a witness to all the nations.

How would full preterists explain this.

And I will read Murray's second question after you answer that one.

He's right.

He's right.

And then you have God making incursions.

Rome never.

You had the Silk Road which went east.

Rome went but people in the Orient that if you reach Strabo in

the first

century.

Are you telling me within 27 years the gospel had been preached in the entire world of the known

populations of people?

It's impossible.

I'll never reach Spain.

He never reached the southern tips of Africa

70 AD.

But see when you do that, you're opening up a door to me.

You're opening up at the end and I think that there's a

much larger message that Jesus is saying

Continue to be preached all the way up to the last day.

That's our mission.

That's our duty.

And let me

read now Murray's.

Second question and Let's see here.

Oh, how did I accidentally delete Murray's second question?

Let me just here it is.

Secondly in light of what has just been discussed with all things going on

and on.

What exactly do full preterists understand.

By the end will come and how do they think this will was fulfilled

in 80 70?

Merely by the destruction of Jerusalem.

The first part of the verse is global.

But do they understand the last part to be only local?

Yeah.

All the earth and the world becomes reduced to 70 AD.

All that language becomes reduced you have to read we have to reduce that language minimize that language down

so that you don't take it literal, but the only problem is as Holger Neubauer stated in my

debate last weekend, but he doesn't believe in original sin.

He doesn't believe that all men are sinners and and

all this bunch doesn't mean all the world.

Because in 70 AD he realizes that all the world literally was not judged

and therefore all men have fallen short of the glory Of God does not mean all

every individual human being.

You see how you start doing this and you start whittling down all of these passages and you end up with something.

That's completely Foreign to anything that you've ever heard before now.

I accused Holger of being basically Pelagian.

Which he really didn't have a problem

with human being who was gonna die anyway

Responsible for your own thing.

You're your own Adam and I'm like, well, that's Pelagian.

He didn't have a problem with that.

He looked at you know, like what's the problem?

I was never operating in that paradigm.

Like you said before I still was operating within.

You know one foot in evangelical Theology in one foot and

trying to bridge the

gap not be done.

You cannot remain maintain an evangelical

Observative evangelical Bible believing

cannot be done mean attempts of it being

tried that it cannot be done which led to my conclusion.

This is not this is no more Christian than Mormonism or Jehovah.

You don't need the creeds.

You don't need Commentaries, you don't need history just you and your Bible.

What point do you draw the

line when you drive a Continuing incarnation of Christ when you deny progressive sanctification when you

deny resurrection of the body you deny last day.

You deny the visible coming of the Lord.

You deny new heavens and earth at what point do you and.

Yet you still want to call yourself a when you've denied key Fundamental core

things that have historically defined the Christian first is at that point.

Do you draw the line?

What makes you different from a Mormon?

They believe in the Bible do they not and they believe in the Holy Spirit

and they believe in God the Father.

They mentioned all this vocabulary.

It's like Walter Martin said but when you ask him to define their term

you run into the problems.

We all use the same terms.

Do you say that I am?

Right, and there's that's not for me that I

believe in Jesus.

I believe in resurrection.

I believe in the Bible.

I believe in salvation what they mean by those terms,

right?

You're gonna hear something that's gonna really.

Right and in fairness, we've got a point out that the Mormons are polytheists.

Even though they might not describe themselves that way they believe in an infinite number of gods because they believe that.

Yeah, they if they are faithful Mormons will become Gods of their own planet.

So obviously there are there are differences the way I'm assuming most hyper preterists view

Monotheism and so on.

So we don't want to write right?

We don't want to give the wrong idea that they believe that.

No, they use phrases that are Christian phrases, right, right.

Just when you ask them to define those Christian phases.

Yeah, you get populated planets and ask one hyper

preterist I said, well if we send now, why do we still the dead now?

Well, I continue to send in heaven and his answer was yes.

Geez what what kind of a place is that to look forward to?

Wow.

Thing that you're getting.

Because once you've has any kind of bank boundary marker.

Then you're free to think pretty much where whatever you want to do.

Road leads and these people go down these roads.

And I've watched I've

watched

only applied to ethnic Israel today.

There is nothing there's no there's no nothing.

Basically, it's it's an agnostic Christianity that's advocating the 70 AD literally wrapped up the entire

thing.

Even reading your Bible and basically it's ended up in this kind of universalism kind of thing.

And this is a growing movement that earth like Michael Miata was

trying to combat.

He's trying he's actually arguing against.

Of course since he's a.

Extremity within a hyper preterism like hyper hyper preterism, right?

It's a it's ironic that there is similar.

There are similarities that you just mentioned with hyper dispensationalists.

Although the highest hyper dispensationalists believe in the perpetuity of the church

until the end of all things on earth they are no longer

conducting the ordinances of the church and.

There's some other similarities that you mentioned.

I'm gonna read a question for you before we go to our final break and you can answer it when we

return.

We have CJ in Lindenhurst Long Island, New York who says.

I was surprised that a partial preterist friend of mine said that.

Revelations chapter 7 verse 9.

After these things I looked and behold a great multitude Which no one could count from every

nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues standing before the throne and

before the lamb clothed in white robes and Saw and palm branches

were in their hands.

This person said that the this was fulfilled or ready and he's not a full preterist.

That troubles me because I don't believe that every nation on the earth has yet been evangelized.

So therefore the elect from out of those groups could not be a part of that number yet.

Well, anyway, we're gonna go to our final break.

You can answer that when we come back.

Yeah, if anybody if anybody wants to join us with a question of their own now's the time to do it.

We're running out of time.

Our email address. Once again is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in we've got about a little less than 10 minutes with our guest Sam Frost

Who is discussing hyperpreterism and we're also promoting a debate that is taking place in Malvern

Long Island tomorrow night.

It's 7 at the Church of the Intercessor he is debating Michael Miano who

is a proponent or advocate of full preterism and If you'd like to join us on the

air do it quickly because we're gonna be out of time before you know it our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen

at gmail .com and Sam Frost as you may remember.

Before the break CJ and Lindenhurst Long Island, New York was troubled by the fact that a partial preterist

not a full preterist.

Said that Revelation chapter 7 verse 9 is already completely fulfilled and that states after

these things I looked and behold a great multitude which no one could count from every nation and all tribes

and peoples and tongues standing before the throne and before the Lamb clothed in white robes and palm branches were in

their hands and obviously that would Imply if you believe that's completely fulfilled

that the entire earth and every single tribe and language has been evangelized.

Which even missionaries that I have spoken with would say that that has not yet occurred in full and in full

in a full way.

Then your your response.

Well,

we went

and then

you

know.

Which was you know hundred

and then you step over and you see the tribes and

nations that have no written Bible

and.

It's a lot, you know

the whole mission of which

even among what is little known.

But you go among

the early in.

In America with the native

they were bringing their language in written form to published Gospels.

This is at the Bible Museum where I was.

I did not know this of how much missionary activity was evolved among in of bringing their language

and now these are language that the English had never heard before and.

Yet we're bringing it into a written language.

Translate the Bible we're talking 17th century kind of stuff here.

I was blown away by this and these were Puritans.

These were these were cowards.

Why are they doing this the

nation's has known from all and to bring

those in until what?

See when when you leave off that until what and.

You say that that's 70 AD.

Then.

Where are we heading?

What are we doing?

What what is it?

You take purpose out of it.

You take meaning out of it and.

And for me that in Revelation 7 I

like to think that I'm in that snapshot of people that he's seeing there this innumerable right to do from

every tribe language of the nation and somewhere in that vision that he saw Chris your

heads in there and my heads in there.

Amen to me.

Into

the divisions

you've disconnected from history and now I've got to ask you a very important question.

Why is the hyper preterist heresy damning other than I know you've already indicated reasons

throughout the broadcast, but really?

Summarize it to its core.

Why is this different than the differences we have between pre millennial on millennial and post -millennial?

And mid -breath.

Pre -wrath rapture and mid -trib and all this.

This is different.

Why and why is it damning?

I?

Think because it's it denies fundament

many many

fundament being

I find that increasingly being denied.

Yeah, that to me is the linchpin.

That's the one that did it for me.

Now if you want to tweak eschatology.

That's that's great.

But now you're hitting Christology now you're hitting into issues

continuing incarnate,

right?

No, he is no longer the God man mediating for us.

Absolutely, and you should hear how they get around that because I point that verse out.

The God man is the mediator.

Who is the mediator and they have to redefine

man.

Well, man doesn't need a

body around the obvious

because now you're the question.

Who do you say that I am?

You're giving me a different Jesus and.

Don't forget folks tomorrow night Saturday May 4th 7 p .m. Sam Frost will be debating

hyperpreterist Michael Miano on these issues at the Church of the Intercessor in Malvern, Long

Island, New York and if you need more information go to Intercessor

Church comm intercessor church comm.

You can also look up Sam Frost on Facebook.

I want to thank you so much Sam for being my guest today.

Well, I look forward to your return.

Perhaps we can talk about how the debate went when you when you come back.

I want to thank everybody at the Church of the Intercessor that helped me prepare for this interview.

I want to Wish you all a very safe and happy and blessed weekend and Lord's Day.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than

you are a sinner.