May 3, 2019 Show with Samuel M. Frost on “Are Hyper-preterists Our Brethren in Christ? When Eschatology Becomes a Matter of Salvation”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown, Carlisle, Pennsylvania. It's iron sharpens iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us. Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. And now here's your host Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Friday on this third day of May 2019 and I am thrilled to have a returning guest today Who is going to be speaking on a very serious and important issue?

Not that we don't typically have serious and important issues on the program but this is an issue that may be something a topic that's Unfamiliar to many of our listeners. We are going to be discussing hyperpreterism.

And to discuss that today is Samuel M. Frost. He was one of the leading figures defending and promoting and Proselytizing Hyperpreterism, of course, he didn't call it that at that time he would just have called it preterism or full preterism or realized eschatology or a number of nicknames that this eschatological view has been given he is also the author of the book why I left full preterism and our specific title today is our Hyper-preterists our brethren in Christ when eschatology becomes a matter of salvation.

We're also going to be discussing an upcoming debate. That's actually going to be held. God willing tomorrow in Malvern Long Island at the Church of the Intercessor. This is going to be a debate that our guest is having With Michael Miano who is a pastor on Long Island, New York who promotes This view of eschatology that my guest and I and many others in the Reformed faith and elsewhere believe to be a dangerous heresy.

But this debate is going to be held tomorrow May 4th at 7 p .m At Church of the Intercessor in Malvern Long Island, New York and we'll give you more details in a bit. But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio Sam Frost.

Chris. Good to talk to you again. Well, I thank you for being on the program with very little notice.

I in fact, I just found out about the debate maybe two or three days ago at the most and.

I.

Was thrilled to be able to get Sam on with very little notice because I think so highly of Sam. And I also think this is an important Subject that we are discussing today Sam if you could even though you have been on the program before you gave us your entire testimony.

There are many people I'm sure who are hearing you for the first time on our interpreters on radio so I'd like you to give a summary of How you got into? Hyperpreterism. Also, as I said before it's it's called by its advocates things like just preterism or full preterism or realized Eschatology or covenant eschatology many other things, but how did you first?

Hear about it. And what was your eschatological view at the time you heard about it? And how were you led into it? Oh, well, actually, let's look let's step back. Let's step back a couple of paces. Define it define Hyperpreterism and I know that there is not a monolithic group.

They're not all identical but those who advocate it, but if you could just give us a Summary definition that would be generally held universally by all who would be in the camp of full preterism.

Taking to the end age 70 ad and the realization and that's the phrase you'll see all these things and so in Matthew 24 to 1980s. Well, that's your sleep right. Everyone else. And and brother. I don't know if you are.

Speaking too closely to your mouthpiece or something. But you're over modulating a little bit and and I have turned down As far as I as far as I can turn down everything on my end. I have turned down the volumes, but you.

Perhaps if you I usually have the opposite problem with my guests. They're too quiet. So if there's anything you could do to back away from the mouth. Yeah, or something because it's it's it's a bit It's I'm fine with it, but it may be a little annoying to our listeners on the radio, okay.

Right now you sound fine, right? Okay, perfect right this second anyway. Now from what I remember from our last interview You and I have in common the fact that we are both partial preterists, which is a completely biblical and orthodox and Faithful Eschatology to have.

I happen to be of the Amillennial stripe optimistic on millennial and partial preterist and I believe you may be a post millennial. I would be on millennial. Oh, you would. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Well see, this is where the problem comes in because just like with hyper Calvinism and Let me fill you in folks for those of you who are not theologically reformed Hyper Calvinism is not the belief in the five points of Calvinism, which many Non or anti Calvinists will say they will say anybody who believes especially in limited atonement.

An unconditional election. They will say oh that person is a hyper Calvinist. No, that's historic Biblically faithful Calvinism, but there are those that are I believe dangerously heretical Who take a good thing too far and they start isogene ing things in the rest of the scripture that.

Remove.

The other aspect of biblical truth when you take in consideration the whole counsel of God the hyper Calvinist will tend to take away or nullify All of the biblical truth all of the texts that teach that man is responsible they may even take away the Texts that teach that man does Have in a certain context a free will.

He has a free will to choose according to his nature and his desires. He is not forced against his will either to believe in Christ or to sin. But he Cannot in the deadness of his sin Savingly believe upon Christ.

So he needs a new heart that is given to him by Christ and Has a new spirit within him or in order to believe and obey God. But in the same way you have a Hyper-preterist movement that sees some truths that many in the body of Christ do not see.

They see nearly any prophecy in the Bible as being a an event in our future that is yet to be fulfilled and I believe that that the majority of The body of Christ whether they be dispensationalists or otherwise are in error with some of the texts that Sam and I and a quite a number of people would believe are already fulfilled or have already taken place, but the hyper-preterist goes too far just like the hyper Calvinist does and Let's also get our vocabulary straight because as I said before When our guests or should I say our listeners? Meet a hyper-preterist.

They are never going to call themselves that and one of the dangers that one of the dangers is is that many partial preterists call themselves simply preterists and Hyper-preterists also simply very often call themselves preterists without any kind of an adjective to further describe that.

Calvin. The editors of make note that he was said just became already happening. Never was it used by the time of 70 in 1980s. Read letters. Yeah, there's even an old.

Everywhere. Yeah, and there's also different kinds of partial preterists for instance. Yeah, two of the leading figures today teaching a partial preteristic view are Gary DeMar and Ken Gentry and even though they are both friends and Both heavily promote each other's ministries and books.

They don't even agree on everything in regarded All right, the preterist view. In fact, they disagree on Matthew 24 and other things. Yeah. Right, but it's still.

Right, well, I.

Continue to call myself a partial preterist because I don't want that fine I don't want anybody to think for a second that I am a fuller hyper preterist. Because I believe it is that dangerous and heretical and Some of the other nicknames just so our listeners know to keep their ears and eyes open for those in this camp of Hyper preterism they would I know that they sometimes call themselves Realized believers and realized eschatology and and covenant eschatology.

Do you any do you know any other phrases that they use?

It's a pretty that's not is nothing like a rise desk at all. Okay, so that I have any problems using that turn? Yeah, we don't report. I never had a problem when I was a full preterist. I never had problems with that.

Okay.

All right. Well, and by the way, just another reminder if you could back away from the mouthpiece. I'm not okay. Okay. Well before we go into greater depth as far as the primary texts of Scripture Championed by the hyper preterists and why this issue is a salvific issue or a an issue that turns eschatology into an issue that I believe brothers in Christ Can have great differences on eschatology, but this is this issue turns Eschatology in my opinion into a matter of spiritual life and death, but Before we go into all of those things Let's just talk for a minute about the debate since it is tomorrow and we want to give people plenty of time To make plans to attend this tomorrow Saturday May 4th 7 p .m At the Church of the Intercessor in Malvern Long Island, New York the Church of the Intercessor I believe is a member of the charismatic Episcopal denomination.

They they have been around for quite a long time. I remember many years ago. I had friends when I was still living on Long Island Who were members there and they used to go to the home of my friend or should I say my friends Bob and Mary Lou posh? who lived in Baldwin Long Island.

Bob was a And still is a Roman Catholic and he used to invite me and other evangelicals to his home so that we would eat drink and argue and that actually gave rise that actually gave rise to the Protestant versus Roman Catholic debates that I arranged on Long Island for a decade that all came to be as a result of Bob posh being a Roman Catholic his wife was at the time a member of the Church of the Intercessor but she later converted to Catholicism, but they would have I would say Close to 20 people from Church of the Intercessor at these barbecues and also in the wintertime Indoor parties that they would have so I have been aware of This congregation for quite a long time.

I remember when Craig Bates was the pastor and I'd like to give a shout out to Rick Zeppernick, I believe he may still be a member there I'm not sure but he would be at these parties every year. But anyway, this debate is going to be on the specific theme is the coming of Christ and resurrection of the dead and the fullness of the new heaven and new earth Past or future if you could explain that in a little bit more detail.

Um. Again, I hope I'm far away from the mic here. Oh, you're still modulating a little bit.

But we got to do what we got to do. There's nothing I can do on my end, right?

We would have to radically do something to that phrase and in definition, you know a one has to radically redefine the understanding in terms of a they get we got that because it seems like the New Testament things and I know that you can watch a We're not religious for spiritual.

And so again that kind of spiritualizing is it's kind of in the air today. People who don't know better can fall into that and thinking well, what's wrong? What's wrong with spiritualizing the new heavens in the new earth or spiritually in the kingdom?

And that's where I get this idea of a literal and began to float the idea that that came when the temple was sacked by the Romans and all and keep in mind All that the temple represent right and all that the temple represented was the old Falling of the old world.

What would be the coming in of the new world of? The new and it's under that umbrella this kind of theological Definings redefining actually redefining would be a body Body of Christ is raised from the old man that kind of stuff.

That's how we do it. That's and. And I'm interested in hearing your take just initially hearing this because it's it you have to admit on the surface. If you didn't know any better, there is a ring of plausibility to it.

You could see where somebody who doesn't know anybody was like, oh, yeah. All right, and that's where drawing people in because and then you know back coupled with this thing. So all these things are fulfilled.

Well, how do you fulfill new heavens a new earth? How do you fulfill? How do you fulfill? Well, maybe we had all those definite call you mentioned cases use, you know. We're because all of our terms in terms of covenant from Old Covenant Old world old man old body.

Old life in Adam to new life new covenant new man. And that's where we're able to use that language that's to you. It did to this young theologian back in the 19th.

End of the 80s early 90s. And forgive me to me and forgive me for if I. If you said this and I forgot. Where were you. Theologically and eschatologically when you first heard about hyper preterism, I mean.

Back in the late 80s a gang in Tyler, Texas from James B.

Jordan David Chilton Gary North and none of those men are hyper preterist by the way. Make sure our listeners know that they are partial preterist, right?

And in Dominion press Ken Gentry was with them and King. Was he already a hyper preterist at that time? Yes, a king had been doing this since.

1969 70 71. He's kind of like considered the grandfather of this movement, isn't he?

King is the most. He's the most if you really want a good grasp of it. That's the book that I recommend there. That's if you really want to understand the inner the detailed inner workings of what's going on here.

But I'm assuming you wouldn't want anybody but perhaps a more well-read Searching. Yeah, well read Christian who is solid in and firmly rooted in historic confessional Christianity rather than some new Novice who's just going to be blown every way every direction by.

Because now I see many many men wasn't the Church of Christ right. And Barton stone and Alexander Campbell Alexander Campbell rest of anything formal religious, right?

Great and also also to clarify the vast majority of Ministers and members of that movement the restoration movement Church of Christ movement. They are not full preterists. They in fact Many of them are Very fiery in their opposition to this and would join us in saying that this is dangerous and heretical.

Yes. Today I would in the movement speaking at over 25 conference in three to two thousand and getting a field for that. But largely I would say right that would be these the so-called.

And and in fact, in fact the In many ways hyper preterism militates against the hallmarks of the Church of Christ because it Really reduces the importance of the church and sometimes Negates its existence whereas the Church of Christ exalts the importance of the church and their ordinances Even even on many occasions viewing them as salvific.

Yeah.

And whereas Baptism being one of them right and then where you have many who are full preterists not even practicing the ordinances anymore.

I'm in the mid mid 2000s. Is what you do show forth the Lord the Lord's death anymore in the donated anymore.

So so basically going back to my original question about where you where you I'm assuming then you were either a non-millennial but at the time or a post-millennial who discovered partial preterism and became fascinated by it and then made the unfortunate leap from there into full preterism.

Well, I've been a church all my life and I was raised in a this four square gospel church. You know the Holiness Movement Pentecostal Assembly God Church of God all about that more or less except growing up hearing that seeing the 70 AD in many of the new tennis that the other hands or falls together.

So Matthew 24 was mine, but if you become a preterist in the Gary DeMar sense, it's very easy. The only real difficulty you have is no one.

Well, and then also the indwelling of the Holy Spirit maybe. And I don't want people to think that our friend Gary DeMar is somehow dangerous because he's Teaching something even though I have my disagreements with him.

I believe I believe that most of what he is teaching is accurate. But it's just like Calvinism, I don't I don't renounce Calvinism or reform theology or the teachings of sovereign grace? Oh, no, because there are hyper Calvinists.

In fact many people Who are young in the faith who become Calvinists unfortunately? Become those that are nicknamed in the cage stage of Calvinism or cage stage Calvinism because they run wild with these truths and exaggerate them and really really in many ways become hyper at least temporarily become hyper Calvinists and Damn, everyone to hell who does not exactly agree with them and in any.

I know that I've said this on my show before But I thought it was kind of humorous when Some friends of mine who have thankfully matured in their faith And are biblically sound today in their Calvinism, but when they first became Calvinists They they pulled me aside after a worship service very angry That the pastor had said choose this day whom you may serve and I said that's in the Bible by the way Because he said choose they they went right there went bananas.

But but we have to be careful not to think that just because something can lead to a serious heresy that it's not true Before the person makes the extra biblical or unbiblical or anti-biblical leap.

Yeah, and let me undermine that he's doing and Gary takes Gary takes his own work with Gary you know would invite questions and Gary is Somebody that you know, if you've got a better argument bring it bring it republish my book.

Oh great. Yeah, so and gentry and I have our differences. Which which are you know have but nonetheless I hold in he and me. You know, I know you have to take a some breaks or whatever. Yeah, I think something that I want to talk about that.

How is it that you can have conversations with somebody like gentry who may or tomorrow who may go a little fucking you have a converse?

Right and and to keep in mind folks that. And I think you misspoke there. They don't go further than the hyper preterists. They go Further than you and many partial preterist. But and and because of the fact that they both champion Post-millennialism that that is a key difference between a hyper preterist and a post-millennialist because the post-millennial is believe.

That there's a reason that it's called post-millennialism. The post means that Christ is going to return after the millennium. But anyway, we're gonna go to a our break right now because I also want you to remind me and Our listeners or perhaps inform our listeners for the first time.

What was the straw that broke the camel's back that made you leave? Hyper preterism. And then we really have to go into why this is dangerous. Why is this difference? Why is this difference different than the difference we have with somebody who believes in a pre-wrath rapture or somebody who's pre-millennial or.

Somebody who is a pessimistic on millennialist rather than an optimistic on millennialist. And we could go on and on and on with differences that genuine brethren have. Where we don't feel threatened By one another and we don't think that the gospel is in jeopardy.

By these difference there's a difference here with the hyper preterism that makes a difference in eschatology dangerous and damning. But we have to go to our our break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air of the question of your own.

Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence. And your country of residence. If you live outside the USA, please only remain anonymous if your question involves personal and private matter.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in our guests today for the full two hours with about 90 minutes to go is Sam Frost. Who was once a leading proponent of what is called full preterism as What is called hyper preterism by those outside of that camp?

Because we believe it is a very dangerous and heretical and damning view of eschatology. Sam is the author of why I left full preterism and today we are discussing our hyper preterists our brethren in Christ.

When eschatology becomes a matter of salvation. And in fact. Tomorrow tomorrow night. That's Saturday, May 4th at 7 p .m Sam is going to be debating Michael Miano who is an advocate of full preterism and that is going to be held at the Church of the Intercessor in Malvern, Long Island and I know that the website for the Church of the Intercessor is Intercessorchurch .com Intercessorchurch .com, but I don't believe that they have anything about the debate on that website.

Do you know a place Sam where our listeners can go to to get all of the details they need for the conference? Okay, and look up Sam Frost on Facebook, yes.

Okay, or Church of the Intercessor or something along those lines, yeah, I know that their website.

I don't see anything on their website that mentions the debate, but it but it will give you all the Directions and things like that that you need and that is once again Intercessorchurch .com, maybe if Eddie Pirro is listening.

He can make sure that Church of the Intercessor Gets an ad for your debate up there quickly so that people can find the information at the church website.

Well.

Once again, if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And.

Please give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence. If you live outside the USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. And by the way, we invite listeners who radically disagree with our guest if you have a question of your own whether you are a full preterist yourself, or I know that there are many in the premillennial and Postmillennial and amillennial camps that are very vociferously opposed to any kind of preterism and So that that's what makes the matters more complicated because you and I are partial preterists.

So there are just just like with Calvinism. There are people who despise any kind of Calvinism Let alone hyper Calvinism and they mislabel Authentic historic biblical Calvinism as hyper Calvinism. So we have this very confusing world that we live in.

But anyway. Now let's go to the part where I was mentioning before the break the straw that broke the camel's back with you that said. All right. I've got to get out of here. I am no longer a Full preterist.

I am renouncing this. This is really spooky stuff. Let me get out of here. What exactly happened?

I was reading a by Gordon Clark the philosophy reform philosopher Gordon Clark. And it's just inadvertently it wasn't the point. I was reading it but he had mentioned the. And I had known this before it's just you know.

How you know things before they just don't connect and he had mentioned of course in the Westminster Confession where it talks about the number of the elections of whose number God so knows really. Never ends that is the kingdom of Christ.

Tree looks like and it will go on history never ends the issue. You know you die and you go to heaven history goes on forever. Creation that goes waste and you have an ever-increasing number. God knows all this people could always add one more dimension.

Yeah, I began to present that material and the reactions I was getting back. Were less than satisfying because now I was being told that I had to believe in it. But this is actually what we were using against those who were saying that near doesn't mean near it's always near, you know.

And that's a paradox and we were arguing against that and now we were using that same argument. Oh, you know reading John said raise them who believes in me. It can't be a infinite number right and. That just John 6 and the word last day and I will raise them and that you can see where the connect.

It's just like a lightning bolt. Maybe it was that I don't and from there. The AD couldn't be because of the all quickly like Domino and I realized I had a problem.

I assume that you were at the time that you were a hyper preterist you were still in some way a functioning Calvinist and I think that your Shock that your shock there would have been more understandable being a Calvinist because yeah, obviously an Arminian hyper preterist or a Pelagian hyper preterist or you know, those that come out of a Typical Church of Christ background might not be troubled all that much by that, but obviously it contradicts historic reform theology, which.

Now is he is he still somebody who practices the ordinances of the church and so on. Yeah, okay.

Yeah, because. Because there is a division amongst hyper preterists even those from out of the Church of Christ who abandoned who abandoned baptism in the Lord's.

Supper.

We're going to our midway break. I know that this all came up very quickly again, but this is our Longer than normal break because grace life radio in Lake City, Florida Requires of us a longer break in the middle because they air their own Public service announcements and commercials in order to localize iron sharpens iron radio to Lake City, Florida While we air our own commercials that are heard globally.