How to Leave a Record of Ignorance Starring Brannon Howse

In Matthew 16 Jesus chastised the Pharisees who could interpret the appearance of the sky but failed to interpret the signs of the time in which they lived.

Who are the Pharisees of our day? This strong hold of sort of whiteness and white identity and pristineness is really part of what keeps us from making progress.

We need to do better. The church rich in theological scholarship has lingered in academic sanctuaries and ivory towers failing to translate its lofty doctrines into a tangible and practical cultural apologetic.

At the Worldview Youth Academy we bridge this critical gap. Here theological depth is not an end in itself but a means to engage with contemporary cultural issues for the glory of God and the expansion of his kingdom.

Our mission is to cultivate thinkers who can articulate and apply Christian truths within contemporary societal challenges.

So embrace this call to worship God with all your heart, all your soul and with all your mind.

We will do better as this next generation tears down the idols of our modern culture and works to build a brighter future toward Christendom 2 .0.

Non -rocker boaters must stop! I don't want to rock the boat, I want to sink it!

Are you going to bark all day, little doggie? Or are you going to bite? We're being delusional. Delusional, yeah.

Delusional is okay in your worldview. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional.

So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt. It's hung up on me!

What?! What? Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men.

The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men lauding them for their courage.

Going to all the world to make disciples. Not going to the world to make buddies. Not to make brosives.

Not going to the world to make homies. Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke, pastor!

When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

Take an amazing journey in the sight of God.

A fool takes no pleasure in understanding but only expressing his opinion.

Proverbs 18 to y 'all. Welcome back everybody to another episode of Apologia Radio. This is the gospel heard around the world.

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And that's Luke the Bear. I'm Jeff the Calm of the Ninja, and that's Zachary Conover. What's up, guys?

Director of Communications with End Abortion Now. Thankful that you've joined us for this episode.

Look, we do a lot of things with Apologia Studios. We've got cultural engagement. You have, like I said, the collision episodes, where we'll collide with talking heads like Joe Rogan and Richard Dawkins.

And we'll engage with that stuff. We have public debate stuff. We do Mormonism. We do Jehovah's Witnesses. We do Roman Catholicism.

And, of course, everybody knows we have End Abortion Now as a major ministry of Apologia Church. God has used that ministry to save literally tens of thousands of lives outside of abortion mills.

And he's used this ministry through our joint efforts with you, with others across the country, to bring in bills of abolition and equal protection across the country, many bills of abolition and equal protection across the country.

And we don't want to have one particular area, necessarily, saying this is the most important one.

But this is an important one. End Abortion Now is an important one. And I want to just say at the outset, I'm tired of talking about abortion.

You've heard me say that a number of times. I'm longing for the day where we never talk about this again, and we never ask for another penny.

We long for the day where the justice is established. We wash our hands of this, and we walk away, and we're done. And we're on to the next thing that God calls us to.

And I recognize that it can become burdensome, and at times overwhelming.

And we want to just switch the channel when we talk about the abortion issue, because it's a big part of what we do. And I know that you're listening to this show, and you're like, you know,

I want to talk about a lot of things. I want to be a better dad. I want to grow. I want to be able to defend the faith.

And you get to another show of Apologia, and here we are talking about the issue of abortion. I wanted to say the reason why is because the

Holocaust is still in effect. It is underway, and we are about to face,

I believe, unless these ballot measures and propositions are put down across the country, we're about to face, as I've said over and over again,

I'm trying to sound the alarm, the bloodiest and most brutal part of the Holocaust we've experienced thus far.

Right now, there are about 14 states across the nation that have ballot measures, and these are going into propositions to be voted on in the state via democratic vote, and what that will do is it will alter the constitutions of those states.

And what does that mean? Well, in a state like Arizona, what it means is you would have abortion enshrined as a constitutional right by state vote, and it would be abortion not like we've ever seen before with restrictions, not that any of those were good, but this would be worse than ever before, because it would essentially enshrine it in constitutional right from conception or fertilization all the way through birth.

Any and all protections removed. That's right. And so when I say bloodiest and most brutal part of this

Holocaust, I am not being hyperbolic, and I keep stressing that. I'm not being hyperbolic. I'm not just trying to intensify the conversation.

I'm telling you as it is. It is happening right now. They were able to get the ballot measure passed through as a proposition onto Arizona's next vote.

The state of Arizona is going to be voting to kill children from fertilization through birth in just a couple of months.

And so that is happening across the country. That is their strategy. And so when people will tune in who are friends of our ministry, you love us, but you're just worn out by this discussion, just know we are too.

Yeah. If you're worn out, trust me, staring this in the face every day, it does great.

Yeah. Total transparency. There's times where my wife and I will turn something off that is reminding us of the battle itself that we're in.

And my wife will even say at times, like, it's just too much. Like, it's too much. Like, she's invested in her husband having to leave to go to state legislatures, to meet with legislators, to go equip pastors.

She has to endure that as a wife and as a family. That's a huge sacrifice. And there's times where, you know, she's already missed her husband for, you know, a couple of days that week.

She doesn't want me to come home and keep talking about abortion. So just know, like, we're human beings.

We're creatures. There's only so much all of us can take. And we recognize it's overwhelming. But that being said, as overwhelming as it is, just know that this is vital and that there is clear, clear, clear, crystal clear ignorance within the church walls, even amongst leadership.

There is clear ignorance. And I don't mean that as an insulting term in terms of ignorance, like you fool.

I mean, ignorance, you just don't know what's going on. With the pulpit, pastors behind the pulpit, they don't know.

Or what's coming, potentially. They don't even know that this proposition even is happening in the state. They don't know that the pro -life groups, they don't know that the pro -life groups don't hold to the

Christian worldview, that they deal in partiality and unequal weights and measures. They don't know that they are explicitly not

Christian in their commitments, that they brag about that. They don't know that the pro -life leaders, national right to life, state right to life organizations, have fought against bills of abolition and equal protection.

They don't know. There's ignorance in the pulpit. And there's a lot of ignorance. And I would say ignorance in terms of just not knowing what's going on and ignorance in terms of being a fool, like a gentleman named

Brandon House. You may not have heard of him, but he's fairly well -known.

And recently he did something on worldviewtube .com. Then when

I saw it, you know, I've seen a few things from Brandon over the years, and don't know a whole lot about him personally, but I was honestly just in dismay when

I saw the first clip, I guess about two weeks ago or so, where he had a couple guests on, and they were talking about abolition and abolitionists.

And I thought to myself, this man has no, a fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.

That's the first thing that came to my mind when I saw this, is someone that is willing to leave behind a public record of ignorance.

Look, none of us want to do that. We're all going to make mistakes. I'm going to make mistakes. And when I make mistakes, I want to own them.

But this man was willing to speak with authority, pretended authority, on an issue that he knows nothing about, clearly.

And he even admits so. I think it's in the next episode after this. I guess they're talking about it across politics today too.

Yeah. Just abject ignorance. And the danger here, this is a lesson

I want us all to learn here. And again, this is me coming saying, look, I'm a failure too. I blow it too. I have gaps.

I fall off at times, but I'm going to own those when I do, and I'm going to avoid this here from the wisdom of God. A fool takes no pleasure in understanding but only in expressing his opinion.

There are times when you're asked a question, when the best thing to do in that moment is be quiet.

Be quiet. I don't know. Pass. Pass. I'm going to refrain from commenting until I know more.

You can say, you know what, I need to look into that. I don't know the answer to that. Right. Help me to understand. Or let me look into that a little bit before I speak on it.

So confidently and brazenly. Yeah, with authority and with confidence and boldness, to leave behind a public record of abject ignorance like this is embarrassing.

And it ought to be an embarrassment to someone like Brandon House. And so I'm going to play you clips.

I'm going to do two parts here. One, I'm going to play you the initial clip that I had seen. And then our great friend, man that I revere,

I just respect this man beyond words, Jason Storms, actually connected with Brandon and was like, hey, you know, can

I come on? You made some mistakes. I'd like to correct some of these things is what it was said as far as I know. And then

Jason was on the next week. And so we'll play some of both of those things for you. First, the first one. And then the next one.

So this, what did I title the show today? How to leave a record of ignorance starring

Brandon House. And the hope here is that he'll be corrected and maybe walk with a little more humility when he speaks publicly on issues.

But also this should be, I think, something for all of us to learn from. And that lesson is, don't do this.

Yeah, don't do it. Don't do this. Don't speak with authority on things you don't understand. And don't slander and vilify in these ways and do it with just so much pride and boldness.

And so this would be hopefully a lesson on divine wisdom. And to summarize, don't do that.

We should have titled the episode that today. Don't do that. If you're in this position, you're just needing to ask more questions than you're answering.

Yeah. Like, you need to take a more inquisitive approach to what the subject matter actually is.

Now, just so you know, and I was really happy to hear this today. Both Luke and Zach have not seen this first part.

Intentionally. So you're going to get their live reaction right now to what's being said here.

Now, just again, to frame this right, this is the first clip that I think happened two weeks ago or so, maybe a week and a half ago.

This was last week. Okay, so it was even more recent than that. And then we're going to play some of what

Jason had with him afterwards. So we'll play some long clips today, but I think it'll be very, very helpful. And this is

Brandon House and his guests talking about abolitionists and the abolition movement.

Here we go. You guys tell me to stop at any point. You guys, Tom, you've been following, you're kind of our reporter on religious

Trojan horse. I basically have said, hey, that's the top of my book from 2011. I want you, Tom, to try to track all these people inside the religious

Trojan horse movement that are being brought into the camp to undermine evangelicalism, undermine the gospel, confuse the living daylights out of people.

And sure enough, you have found something quite shocking. Folks, we could go for hours on this.

We're going to try to do the cliff note version. We can have them back for a further discussion. Set the table for us,

Tom, and then we'll have a conversation with Chris and Dr. Woods about it. Okay. And actually, in recent months, you and I have been talking about the problem with the

Christian nationalist narrative. That's part of what I would say. Let me use my visual aid here.

That's the big sticky trap that is being set for Christians. So if you live in the woods like I do, you can't be without these things.

And, you know, it's just a big panel full of very sticky goo and baited with something that will attract the rodents and trap them.

But actually what they're trying to do is trap Christians in a narrative, an identity like Christian nationalism that will portray us as villainous, as seeking to take over the country, establish as a

Christian country and persecute people who are not Christians. So this narrative is building.

We've looked at people like Doug Wilson, who is part of that. We've seen that some of the mainstream

Reformed Baptist leaders are becoming a big part of that. A lot of young pastors are buying into that identity.

Also within that identity is a group called Abortion Abolitionist.

And they are a movement who want to outlaw abortion and enforce what are really unenforceable laws to basically make out women as murderers and send them to prison.

Wait a minute. Because obviously we're all pro -life here and want pro -life laws. Dr. Woods, like the rapture happened and Dr.

Woods is gone. Oh, there he is. All right. But the rapture had happened for a minute. We're all post. All right.

The Abortion Abolitionist people are wanting. I mean, we're all pro -life here.

But what you're saying is their particular emphasis is to not only outlaw it, but didn't throw the women who had abortions or one or two, whatever, into prison.

Notice how as he addresses the claim that the Abortion Abolitionists are trying to have this classified as murder and seeing women as murderers.

Everybody involved is a murderer, according to the Abolitionists. Equal protection means that. But notice that he has to frame it with like, well, let me address the issue of calling it murder.

But make sure you understand that I am pro -life. But I am pro -life. Because do you notice how you have to walk between two positions there?

Is you want to say as a Christian from the Christian worldview because it is undeniable and incontrovertible that it is murder. But then you're going to speak against the idea of seeing women being classified as murderers and punishable under law.

You're going to speak on the other side like, well, I wouldn't want that. Also, the abject ignorance here is that's not even legal to have retroactive punishment.

So women who have had one or two or three or whatever abortions, you want to throw them into jail.

No, retroactive punishment is not legal in this country. And no bill of abolition and equal protection is retroactive.

What it would be doing is classifying a crime. It wouldn't be talking about a class or a gender.

It would it would actually call abortion the unjustified taking of human life and would offer equal protection to the child in the womb.

So anybody involved in the murder of the child, whether it's the abortion doctor, whether it's the boyfriend through coercion or whether it's the woman herself, anybody involved would be seen as culpable and they would no longer have immunity and be able to do with impunity.

As the pro -life establishment codifies in their legislation that the woman must be a protected class of killer.

She must be able to do this with impunity and immunity. So I just find it always interesting that as people who are sort of part of the old guard of the pro -life establishments, always if they hold to a

Christian worldview, as Brannon House does in terms of that's the image of God from fertilization. If they hold to that position, they have to put one foot in one worldview and one in the other.

And I just want to say, as we have this discussion, the book of Proverbs is the book of divine wisdom, wisdom from God.

How do we live in this world? Right. And in that divine wisdom, it says that the one who acquits the guilty and the one who condemns the righteous are equally alike an abomination to God.

And so if we hold to a position that says, well, no, she's not guilty, she's not guilty.

Well, then that's an abomination in God's eyes. And if you say she is guilty,

I'm not saying she's not guilty. I'm saying she is guilty. Then pray tell. How come she is afforded legal protection under law?

How come she can do it with impunity? Do you see the problem? Brennan House clearly doesn't.

And the problem is that kind of ignorance is how we got to where we are at today in this nation when it comes to Christians actually speaking prophetically in this area and establishing legislation that is just and pleasing in God's eyes.

And by the way, is consistent. I have lots of things. Go ahead.

I'll just go. I made the first sound. Yeah. Your sound is first. In regards to the point you just made, the people that started that is the pro -life industry.

It's not coming from the pro -aborts claiming that we're trying to retroactively throw women in jail.

That came from the pro -life industry, just for the record. That's very important. That's not a leftist argument.

It's completely untrue. It's completely untrue and against the law in this nation to have retroactive punishment. So no equal protection bill says that.

Equal protection just says it should be illegal for anyone to murder anyone in this nation.

That's it. That's all it is. Equal protection says that the baby in the womb, the human being in the womb, has the same rights and protections as the human being outside of the womb.

That's all it says. No class is defined. No gender is defined. Nothing said about the woman.

It just criminalizes conduct. Now what's interesting here, and I've always said this, the fatal flaw, is that when you propose the bill that the establishment says they believe, human from fertilization, all human life is sacred and protected and all those different things.

When you propose the bill, say, great, let's do that. Let's put that in legislation and let's abolish this thing. And then people like Brandon House and others in the pro -life establishment go, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

That would mean that she'd be seen as guilty and punishable. It reveals the heart of a doctrinal or creedal position.

And that position is that the woman, though it is murder and unjustified taking of human life, she must be afforded immunity under law and be able to do it with impunity, that is to say, no punishment.

This reveals a core doctrinal commitment, is what it reveals. And it's inconsistent and it cannot be defended from a

Christian perspective. It cannot be defended. That's why people like this will never come out on stage and do a public debate on this issue and defend it in the way that they are.

Because if they hold to a Christian position, they say that it's human from fertilization and all human life needs to be protected, it's the image of God, then it'll be immediately seen in the first 30 breaths that you're inconsistent when you say, but she must be able to do it with legal protection.

What I say in that case is for all of the emotionalism attached to this and all the rest, we are not supposed to do that.

Your eye shall not pity, is what God says in justice. When it comes to justice, your eye shall not pity.

And all the emotionalism that's attached to this issue, when we talk about this, what I say is, great, now do rape.

Now do theft, right? All this emotionalism, like, well, these people, like these people that do this, like many of them come to Christ.

Yeah, so do thieves in jail and so do robbers and rapists in jail. But what do we say as Christians?

Though we're praising God that God has saved you and you're in Christ now, you still committed a crime and that needs to be punished.

And it doesn't matter who it is, woman, man, doctor, doesn't make a difference. How do we get these loose standards with the murder of the preborn?

You see, Brandon House, I imagine, and I'll kick it over to you, Zach, I imagine, and I use this illustration a lot, if there was a guy running down the street, covered in sweat, clearly trying to escape something, and Brandon House is doing a

Bible study at a coffee shop. And this guy runs up, and it turns out the guy has just robbed somebody.

He's just robbed and beat somebody. And Brandon and all the rest of the guys preach the gospel to this guy. The guy has a radical conversion on the spot.

He turns to Jesus. He legitimately comes to faith in Jesus. And then the police roll up 30 seconds after the conversion.

I don't think Brandon House and the rest of the crew there at the Bible study would say to the officers, Officer, officer, you don't understand.

This man has just come to Christ. He's just come to Jesus. He's a believer now, and he's experienced forgiveness in Jesus.

No, I think that Brandon and everybody else at that Bible study would recognize, though we're grateful to God that you've come to Christ, and we want all thieves to come to Jesus, you still have to face justice.

Why are we removing the element of justice from the most innocent and defenseless among us?

The only reason is not because of God's law. It's not because of consistency. It's because of emotionalism.

That's the issue. Hold on, sorry, because I wasn't... It's all right.

I might be wrong in this, but I'm pretty sure the first we really saw that come out was when we had our bill in Louisiana, and then the pro -life industry put their letter, everyone signed, and that's when we first started seeing that claim being made, and we have refuted that time and time again.

The author of the bill, Bradley Pierce, has refuted that time and time again. But the other thing

I was going to say was, just going back to the beginning of that, I agree. I don't know who that guy is. I agree that the left is trying to paint, we've talked about this, to paint us all as extreme white

Christian nationalists. I agree with that point. Then he goes into Doug.

The problem is, then he broad brushes everyone, and it says everyone is in this category, and he mentions

Doug, which Doug would claim that. We would not claim that title. We've said that multiple times. We don't claim that title.

He may not be speaking directly about us, but the point is that this is where we're like, hey, you should be careful. You shouldn't just broad brush everyone, because then everyone falls into this category, and we would have some significant disagreements with that title.

Yeah, for sure. We've done shows on it. Yeah, exactly. And within the abolitionist community, it's a broad community.

To say the least. To say the least. Many within the abolitionist community would not, would not take the title of Christian nationalist.

On par with Luke, that was going to be my comment, is that my initial reaction to this just seems like it's not a careful critique.

It is a broad brush, and the remark that Christian nationalism, or as they defined it, the idea that the

USA was founded as a Christian nation and ought to return to its Christian foundations and heritage in order to experience blessing, that's not a

Trojan horse. That's a good point. That's not a foreign idea. That's something that made the

United States what it is. It's abandoned that heritage, and that's why it's quickly disintegrating, nationally speaking.

Alongside this idea that abortion is a crime, it's a sin, and it ought to be legal for everyone, and anyone that commits it is a sinner in need of the forgiveness of Jesus Christ, but also the justice of God's good law.

That, again, is not a Trojan horse. It's not some psy -op by the left to send in this foreign idea that we've never spoken of before in order to disintegrate the right's effort to win an election or something.

If you look at the early church fathers, for example, they had the historic Christian position correct when it came to the murder of the unborn.

They believed it was a crime and a sin for everyone involved, including the woman. This is not a foreign idea.

It's not a novel idea, and it's certainly not a Trojan horse. What is the Trojan horse, to your point,

Jeff, is this novel idea that somehow whoever commits the sin of baby murder is not accountable to God's law and therefore not a sinner and therefore not in need of a savior.

That is the novel idea because of the Trojan horses of secular humanism, feminism, and all these aberrant ideologies that give us an unbiblical anthropology of the woman and everyone else.

Yeah, so the judicial novum here is them. It's your position that is not historically

Christian and is the novelty. The position that there should be a protected class of killers in the context of the unjustified taking of human life in the womb.

What we are saying and what the bills all say is that it criminalizes conduct.

Anybody involved, anybody involved in the taking of human life has to go through the court system and face justice.

It doesn't matter who you are. What we're saying is there's no protected class. Show no partiality is a command of God that runs as a thread through the

Torah and on into the New Testament. Just read the epistle of James. Show no partiality.

And what this is is partiality on stilts is what it is. It's murder. We're pro -life.

It's murder. But goodness gracious, we've got to have a protected class of killers here. The mother must be able to take the life of her own child willfully with immunity and impunity.

Now more. Wait a minute. What about the men? What about throwing the men in prison? Just what we just said.

Yes, again. Again, the title of the episode today, How to Leave a Record of Ignorance starring

Brannon House. Brannon, brother, I know you don't think I'm a brother because you think that James White is a false teacher and if I'm hooked up with him, we're pretty much the same.

You say that in a moment here. You need to do better. You need to do better. You're obviously a sharp guy, good at what you do in terms of sitting behind that camera and high quality stuff.

Good stuff. I mean that. It's impressive and good, but you need to do better. You spoke on an issue that you knew nothing about.

And even after your episode with Jason, I don't see any repentance or I really made a mistake there.

I apologize for that. No self -correction here. You didn't do it. Just abject ignorance on public display and with a smile on your face.

If you even spent 20 minutes looking into these abolition bills, these bills of equal protection, not only would you see that they are completely consistent with what you say about abortion yourself as a

Christian, but you would see that all of them would criminalize the conduct of anybody who's involved in the unjustified taking of human life.

And so very simply, the bills of equal protection say that murdering anyone should be illegal for everyone.

And that has been something that has just been put over this whole discussion as a banner for years and years and years.

Murdering anyone should be illegal for everyone. If you agree with that, that banner over this discussion, then welcome to the abolitionist community.

Welcome to those who seek equal protection. And if you don't, then you don't believe that the child in the womb is actually human.

And by extension, you're not truly pro -life. Right. And there you go. Well, are they just going to go and target the poor ladies?

I mean, again, some of these women regret what they've done. They've been deceived. Many of them live with it the rest of their life.

They're repentant. Some of them become believers and become some of the biggest pro -life advocates we have on the planet. Repentant of what?

Is it murder? What are they coming to Jesus for, Brandon? Do we want to rob these women of the gospel, which is precisely what we'd be doing if we say the party line of the establishment that they are equally victims like their babies, which by the way is the party line of the pro -life establishment and industry.

That's what they say to kill our bills. She's a victim too. So if she's repentant, and I agree, our church is filled with women who have had abortions and even multiple abortions, and they are in Christ.

They are washed. They are forgiven. They know Jesus. They're loved by God. They have the gift of eternal life. Okay. But if they're guilty and they've repented, what have they repented of?

Is it the unjustified taking of human life? Is it murder in God's eyes? And if you say yes, that's what

Jesus has washed away. Is there murder? Then I have to ask the question, how come in your perspective, the woman should be kept free from any penalty if she takes the life of her child in her womb?

Because I would ask you then, what about when the baby comes out? What if, can she kill it 30 seconds after and then face justice?

And so if you say justice outside the magical birth canal, but not justice inside the magical birth canal, then actually you hold to the same position as the pro -choicers.

See, the pro -choice position, okay, again, I always have the caveat on this.

I recognize, of course, completely, that there are people who are so demented and so depraved and so radical, even in the pro -choice movement, that they would even argue that you can do it at any time all the way up to birth and maybe even a waiting period after that for, say, two weeks, 20 days, where you determine whether or not you want to take their life.

They're out there. People are out there. They have suggested that at times in the past. Even fairly recently, people were suggesting that in,

I think, Maryland and California. So I recognize there are the radicals out there, but by and large, generally speaking, the pro -choicer says this.

A woman must be able to take the life of her child in the womb, and she must be able to do it with legal protection to do so and freedom from any punishment.

That's the pro -choice position. But the standard pro -choicer, though they believe that about inside the womb, impunity and immunity, they do say that, look, if the baby comes out and then that mom throws the baby in a trash can in Sky Harbor Airport, which has happened, and that baby dies, she's got to face justice, because when that human being is out, justice then must be established.

Guess who else believes that? The pro -life establishment. They believe it as well.

Now, the pro -life establishment would say, we don't want her to take the life of her child in the womb. We don't want her to do that.

We want her to have choices. We want her to not do that, but we still want her to be free from any punishment, any sanctions, when the baby's in the womb.

But when it comes out, the pro -life establishment says, justice begins there. Yeah. I think what you're pointing out is exactly that, is that the modern -day pro -life establishment's position is identical to Planned Parenthood's, and that is that the right to life begins at birth.

It's the same legislative position, because the pro -life establishment literally writes into their laws, and this can be demonstrated to you over and over and over again, even in the states where they have trigger laws or they have criminalized abortion for the abortion doctor, they've shut down abortion facilities, they will say it's a crime in this context, but this shall not apply to the mother.

The same position. She must have legal protection to do it while the baby is in the womb, but once it's out, then the pro -life establishment says, well, then in that case, yes, the justice must be established, which is to say, it's just another example of unequal weights and measures of partiality in the pro -life establishment, because though they say it's human from fertilization, they don't want that human being to have the same protections as the 1 -year -old, 2 -year -old, 6 -year -old, 30 -year -old.

Yeah, who's singling out the woman here? I think it's the pro -life establishment that actually gives them

Uber right to take away the right to someone's life. No one else has that right. That's right.

I would just say, one, this is again, we've talked about this, but he's conflating sins and crimes and forgiveness of sins.

The role of the church, role of state, too. And justice for crimes. So you can't say, well, they've repented, they've been forgiven.

That's not the same as being held accountable for committing a murder. And so I also want to say, because there's some confusion in the chat about how these laws work and how they can't work retroactively.

The point is, currently right now, in a lot of these states, you can legally, as a mother, murder your child.

If there were a law to pass and say, you can no longer do that, it is now a crime, you can't go back and retroactively punish someone for something that wasn't a crime when they committed it.

So there's some confusion. I just want to clarify that, because people were having a hard time understanding that. I think that's what they mean when they say, well, these things are unenforceable.

They're working off the operating assumption that this is a retroactive punishment. No, it's establishing justice today.

And from that point, that law acts as a tutor to your community and to your culture, saying you cannot take the life unjustly of a human being in the womb.

Can't happen. And this group of guys wants to throw them in prison?

Is that what you just said, Tom? Yes, and this is happening at many state capitals, including my own here in Alabama.

So this movement is significant, and it's being led by a pastor that is from Arizona named

Jeff Durbin. He is a martial arts actor and body double for Ninja Turtles and stuff like that.

But he is. Is? It's been a while, right? First thing. You were a body double?

It's not just a bunch of guys. Yeah, exactly. There are no women in the abolitionist movement. Correct.

It's not just a bunch of guys that want to have justice established for these babies. But I will say, you're right about the other thing.

But I wouldn't say it's a body double. I'd say it's a stun double. Body double would mean I look like a Ninja Turtle regularly.

Like they used your physique. Get this guy in here, and he needs to be in a scene because he looks like a Ninja Turtle.

Body double. No. I was the fight choreographer, and I did the stunts and fight scenes for Michelangelo, Donatello, and Casey Jones for the franchise for one of their projects.

But that's all true. Yeah. A pretty hardcore Calvinist, neo -Calvinist.

And your friend James White actually works on staff there, so it's pretty mainstream.

Wait a minute. Wait a minute. If James White works there with this... Who's this dude? What's his name?

Jeff what? Jeff Durbin. Jeff Durbin. Okay. But if James White's tied to it, then you know it's theologically all screwed up because James White thinks that Muslims and Christians can find common ground.

Oh, here we go. And that James White came to my backyard here in the Mid -South and told a Jew -hating,

Holocaust -denying, Hitler -defending, jihadi -preaching Imam You guys love that when I do that, by the way. I get lots of emails. Someone said, you haven't said that in like two years and it just rolled off like that.

Well, those of you that are not normal, used to the show, I said that probably a million times in 2017 alone when we were fighting this.

But there's James White sitting with Yasser Kadi who had Siraj Wahaj at his mosque, who is an unidentified co -conspirator of the

Bombing of the World Trade Center. And Yasser Kadi and James White have a kumbaya, a Barney moment.

I love you. You love me. You are a big happy family. And is a complete, shall I say,

James White's a false teacher. Can I just say it the way it is? James White is a false teacher teaching that Islam and Christianity can actually defend each other when the persecution comes.

So if Jeff Durbin is in any way tied to James White, then that tells me you're dealing with false teachers.

This is just so sloppy. It's really sloppy. Maybe just one thing about... He's like a

Christian shock jock. Yeah, about James. A, I think

James' teaching on this matter is public enough for us to know that the only common ground between us and the unbeliever is

God's ground. James wouldn't deny that. And second of all, he's been in contexts where he has had the ability to effectively preach the gospel to Muslims.

I think the question for Brandon is, are you even able to do that? Like, number one, to be in the position to do it, but to effectively evangelize and witness to someone of Islam.

Yeah, I would say... What I would say to Brandon here is that outside of those slights and the false teacher allegations and all the rest is that armchair evangelists and armchair apologists are the least impressive people to me.

The people who are impressive to me are the people who actually defend their beliefs and display courage and work and love for the other person.

So when I say armchair evangelists and armchair apologists, when you try to denigrate the ministry of Pastor James White or Dr.

James White and his ministry towards the Muslims, I would say this. Okay, let's play that game.

Let me ask Brandon. Brandon, how many hours of public moderated debate have you done with the top apologists for Islam in the world?

Have you defended the Trinity, the deity of Christ, justification by faith, the authority of Scripture, the transmission of Holy Writ?

Have you defended those doctrines and those positions in mosques in different parts of the world?

Have you stood before Muslim men who deny the

Christian faith and deny the deity of Christ? Have you stood before these men to preach the gospel and defend the deity of Christ all over the world?

Have you written a book on Islam, refuting its errors in the Koran like Pastor James has?

Because you see, when you try to talk about James in this way and slander him in this way, again, as Zach says, what

James would argue is that the common ground between Islam and us would only be

God's ground. As in Yahweh. Yeah, the one thing that James would say is that what is the one thing that is the common core belief between Islam and Christianity is simply this, monotheism.

And that is an accurate thing to say is that Islam is a monotheistic religion.

It is a false religion. It has a false god. It has a false religious text with a false prophet.

And James would say all of that. But it is a monotheistic religion and Christianity is monotheistic as well.

Look, any worldview class or class on theology would teach you that if you're trying to engage with Muslims.

But Dr. James White has defended the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the authority of Scripture, the transmission of the text of Scripture, salvation through Christ alone, the atonement, the resurrection.

He's defended all those doctrines against Islam and has actually done something,

Brandon, that I am sure you've never done. And that is gone face to face to defend the

Christian faith and the gospel against Islam's very best. And he's done it around the world and he's dedicated countless hours to it.

So what I would say to anybody who has a question about this at all, I wonder if James is just sort of like, you know, ceding, you know, all this ground to the

Muslims. I would say just do this. Type in Brandon House, Muslim debate, see what comes up.

And then type in James White, Muslim debate and see what comes up. And then go ahead and peruse a couple of the debates and see if Pastor James is in any way compromising on the issue of Islam.

Or what you might see is that not only is he vigorously defending the Christian gospel and Christian God against the false god of Islam, but he is doing it in a way that we're called to do it.

Love your enemies. Always being ready, Peter says.

Always being ready to give an apologia, a reasoned defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is within you.

Yeah, do it with gentleness and with reverence. And that's how it's supposed to be done, even with terrorists, even with Muslims who hold to a worldview that is totally contrary to the

Christian worldview. We are to love our neighbors, defend the Christian faith rigorously with respect and gentleness.

And so here's what I'll take. I'll just say this on record. I think it's obvious enough. I'll take the man who's defended the core issues of the gospel and God himself against the world's best

Muslim apologists and has done it with love and respect and gentleness against the guy who is the armchair evangelist and theologian for Muslims.

How about that? I'll take that. I'll take the guy that is careful in his thought, who wants to make sure he never leaves a record of ignorance, that understands his opponents, spends years trying to understand them before he even attempts to really engage them in public debates.

I will take the guy who is so cautious and so careful so as not to say the wrong thing and disqualify himself or bring shame upon his

Christian testimony because he doesn't want to have a record of saying things that are wrong. I'll take him over the

Brandon House that were like, what, 60 seconds into this and has face -planted numerous times.

I'll go with Dr. James White. And I'll leave it up to the audience here to see if he's a false teacher.

Okay. I got a verse for you real quick. Proverbs 21 -24. Scoffer is the name of the arrogant haughty man who acts with arrogant pride.

I mean, that's a great verse for Brandon. That was just straight slander. Like, that's all that that was.

That was prideful, arrogant, haughty, slander. And there's nothing else to say about that. Yeah.

False teacher. Again, I'd like to see the evidence of Brandon House defending the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the atonement, the resurrection, the authority, and the transmission of the text of the

Bible against Muslims. I want to see the record. All right? I'll be impressed with the person who actually says,

I've got a reason to speak with authority on this. Here's my history. Here's my record. Again, armchair evangelists and armchair apologists are the least impressive people in the world to me.

The least impressive. I want to see what you've got. Right? The guy who talks trash at the side of the

UFC ring and trying to coach and say all the things that ought to be done, who has no experience fighting, he has no record of fighting, or he even has a record of like, you know, oh, wins and 50 losses.

He doesn't need to be listened to. He has no authority to speak on the subject. If he has no qualifications, no training, no experience, no record, don't listen to him.

And that's how I feel about that. Yeah, and this is really a horrific approach to the pro -life movement because it's dividing it, and it is so extreme that even people that I know who've written the heartbeat bills and who have been very successful in getting roadblocks up to abortion and the overturning of Roe v.

Wade and getting the issue back in the states, they're now up against the wall because these guys are calling them out as not pro -life or not pro -life enough if they're not buying into the narrative.

The narrative? You mean the narrative that what's in the womb is a human from fertilization and every human deserves equal protection?

You mean pointing out the inconsistency to pro -lifers like yourself, sir, who apparently think that a heartbeat is what establishes the humanity of the child?

I thought we didn't believe that. Do we believe that as Christians? That having a working, functioning heart is what actually provides you your protection, value, and dignity as a human being?

I didn't know that. I honestly thought that the Christian worldview was that you are image of God, God uniquely fits us together in a mother's womb.

He saw my unformed substance. Right? So we have fertilization, that conception.

God creates that human life. It's the imago dei, and the imago dei is deeper than my functioning organs.

I thought that that was the Christian position. Right? Where did all this discussion of heartbeats come in?

As though that was the Christian position. It is pure partiality. It is saying if you can find killer, assassin being paid right now, if you can find a working heartbeat, then you cannot kill them.

Right? But, you know, if you can't find a heartbeat, kill those human beings. That's partiality.

That's class. That's saying, well, you know, pain capable. If you're a human being, and you're able to feel or experience pain, well then we're not gonna kill you, but we'll kill the other human beings that just can't feel pain.

What about people in comas right now? Are we allowed to off them? Take their lives in an unjustified manner they can't feel anything?

Is that the standard? I thought that the Christian worldview was clear and consistent on this issue. What happened to us?

What happened to us is indoctrination. It is indoctrination that has happened to us where the creed and the doctrinal position, the confession of the pro -life establishment that has been developed over 50 years since Roe versus Wade, that doctrine has gone into the church and infected the minds of otherwise sharp men and women.

And that is the problem. You wanna say something? Don't have anything to add to that. The narrative being you've gotta pass laws that throw the women in prison, but not the guys!

Emotional talking points. Should we do a... Let's do it in a fundy kind of way.

Should we do like a milk shot game? Like every time he says that... Milk shot! Every time he says that we take a shot of milk or something or grape juice or something.

Nobody says that, Brandon. And so the title of the show today, Absolutely Honest, How to Leave a

Record of Ignorance with so much confidence. Nobody says that. Nobody wants a protected class in any way.

It is actually, on this side anyways, no one wants a protected class of killers. It is your position that wants a protected class of killers.

None of us over here have said that the guy has immunity and impunity. None of us. We actually say anybody involved has to go through the court system and be tried justly.

It is your position that wants a protected class of killers. And that is the woman. Not the guy.

Which, by the way, kind of fits the whole narrative, which is that the people on the Christian right, the conservative right, they're all a bunch of...

What's that word they use all the time for Donald Trump? He's a misogynist? They all hate women. This just plays right into that narrative,

Tom. It really does. And I told Tom Askell, Can we say one thing about that real fast?

I think... I think it's hateful to women to write laws that give them the right to murder their children.

Yeah. I think the most hateful thing we could possibly do would be to shackle them with an unimaginable level of guilt and shame for the rest of their lives by allowing them to commit this crime.

Something that we would never allow them to do to their born children. That's what I think. I think that's hatred and not love.

Yeah. Conservative Baptist leaders who's endorsing this stuff,

I said, Man, you guys are like the best fundraiser for Planned Parenthood out there. So you've got to step back and think about what's happening here.

So you've got this Christian... So compromise on the truth in order to not allow the enemy to hate you.

Right. Or use anything against you. It's just fear of man. It's fear of man and not fear of God. You're so afraid of what the left will say about you if you just stand on the truth.

So what you want to do is play politics. And that is what the abolitionists are saying from the church.

We cannot do. We must be prophetic and faithful. We are about principle and not pragmatism.

What you are suggesting is a pragmatic approach. Oh, think about what they'll say about us. Think about what they'll do.

Think about the narrative they'll spin. They're going to say that these guys, they actually respect the child in the womb so much.

They want everybody to actually face justice for it. Yeah, I'll take that. I'll take that.

I'll take the bill of abolition on the day of judgment put before the Lord to say, Lord, were you pleased with us over against your bills that say she's not guilty, she must be protected to kill her child, and we must have bills of partiality.

I'll take my bill any day on the day of judgment over yours. As a matter of fact, you should run from your bill on the day of judgment.

It goes right back to how they started the conversation. They're so allergic to the term Christian nationalism that they're willing to say ignorant stuff like this in order to distance themselves from that.

We've talked about this before, but that's exactly what this is. Yeah. The nationalist movement, you've got this abortion abolitionist movement, and now suddenly there was one of the

Christian nationalist pastors dropped an interview on Monday, this past Monday, the 19th, which is of a neo -confederate historian, a guy who -

I never heard of a - I live in the Mid -South. I never heard of a neo -confederate. What's that? Well, it's someone who really thinks the

South is going to rise again on some level, you know? And what he's doing, he calls himself a confederate apologist, and he extols the virtues of the

South who were fighting for the Civil War basically as a - over a biblical faithfulness and their theology.

So you get into - Wait a minute, wait a minute. The Civil War was fought over biblical faithfulness to theology?

That's the assertion, and that - So I don't know how he got there, but - Do you know who they're talking about? No, I actually don't know who they're talking about.

I don't even know what to say to that. I'd like to know what the name of that person is. I'm curious myself. So there you go. There's the introduction.

We're going to go into the after show here in just a moment here and play for you all the clips of Jason, Jason Storms, engaging with Brandon.

And if you guys want to see that, just go sign up for All Access. We're going to be over there in just a minute. I think

Jason did a fine job. He was much more patient than I would have been. Yeah, he did a wonderful job.

Man, I love Jason. I'll tell you what, man. That is a man that is wise and balanced, and you know, you can trust him.

And, you know, they've been in the industry for a very, very long time. There are a lot of really, you know, great teachers out there, but I can say, and I don't want to say this to besmirch anybody or anything, but, you know, you find it at times difficult to find the person that, though they may be able to teach, and they're, you know, a great speaker, the person that you know is going to be just tethered to the

Word of God and God's wisdom and a person who's going to be balanced and consistent and that you know, even in the midst of dramatic conflict, he'll stay patient and he'll stay tethered to the text, and he will hold himself to the obligations of Scripture.

That's not always the case. You can't always assume that about everybody. There are a lot of people out there that are great teachers, have great ministries, and you can't necessarily assume at the outset that this person is just going to stay tethered to the text and they're going to make sure that they're under the authority of Scripture and accountable to it.

And you always see the true nature of a person and their spiritual development in the midst of conflict.

In the midst of conflict. And Jason's just a great, great man. In the midst of this conversation, as wild as that all was, while you're all here listening,

I want to let everybody know something encouraging. So I just got back last week from Ohio and I was in Cincinnati and I was able to meet with an

Ohio legislator who's putting a bill of abolition and equal protection into the state of Ohio. I was also able to meet with a number of legislators at our pastor's meeting that night.

And I was also able to meet with an amazing legislator. I'll keep everything private for now until we get everything underway.

An amazing legislator from the state of Kentucky who is all in, understands the position, knows the argumentation, and is going to help with the bill of equal protection in the state of Kentucky.

That's his commitment. And so we have Ohio and Kentucky. There's a number of other states right now that we are prepped to do bills of abolition in that are happening across the country.

I'll try to get you updates on those when I can. But right now, be in prayer right now for Ohio and the state of Kentucky because we've got plans underway to get bills of equal protection in both states.

If you are in the state of Kentucky and Ohio, we are going to need your help. We want you to own this.

As I said to the pastors on, what day was that? Last Tuesday. Two Tuesdays ago.

As I said to them, Kentucky pastors and Ohio pastors, those aren't my states.

I live in Arizona. We're here to serve the church across the country and to be a prophetic voice. But when we help to get a bill in or support others who have bills in these different various states, just know that the expectation from us is that you're going to do the work and you're going to do the labor and you're going to get on your feet and you're going to knock on doors and you're going to go to legislators because it is, in fact, your community and not ours.

And so I want to encourage everybody. We need help. Please go to endabortionnow .com and go, please, first and foremost, if you're not going out to the abortion mills to save lives,

I would encourage you to do so. We want nothing from your church. We want to give everything away to you. We have free training, free resources to go save lives just like God has used in so many other churches that we've helped to raise up.

Again, tens of thousands of children have been saved through that effort. It's happening constantly. We want to help and equip you, so please go sign up.

But the other thing is, please go and give financially to End Abortion Now.

Again, we long for the day where we don't ask for another penny for this work, but I can tell you right now that God is doing some significant damage through this small -ish church in the desert, and the damage that God is doing through this ministry alongside the ministries that work with us is incredible considering the budget.

We have a budget that is near pennies on the dollar of the pro -life establishment, and God is doing more damage with prophetic word and with justice through this ministry.

But we do need your help. We do need your financial help. I'll give you one example. Sometimes unforeseen things come up.

We find out we have to go to a state we didn't plan to go to. We've got to talk to a legislator we never even thought we had, and that costs money.

Travel to get there, to work that, to get that bill in effect, to meet with pastors from across the state.

That costs money. And another thing, like a bill we didn't expect came up for $40 ,000.

Absolutely necessary. Had to do with the ballot measure thing. Things like that come up. And so we're trying to fight the good fight with very little funds.

And so we want to encourage you guys, if you believe in this, if you want to see justice established, we want to encourage you to be a part of this with us, not just prayerfully, but financially.

And so please do. Please do go and give because the fight, unfortunately, is not almost over.

We have a lot of road ahead of us, and though God is doing incredible things right now, and minds are transforming across this nation, and we're getting bills of equal protection in across the country, we have so much work ahead of us.

And I will say this. We are almost today. Okay. There's two ways to look at this.

One, in a better place than we ever were before, because Christians are thinking consistently about this now, and they're getting bills of equal protection across the country.

That hasn't happened. That wasn't happening through Roe vs. Wade, so yes, that's better. But we're in a worse off position now, practically speaking, because now we've got the

GOP working against us. You've got people like Donald Trump. Donald Trump tweeting.

Was it a tweet, or was it his true thing? Tweeting. Tweeting. Saying that his administration would be great for reproductive rights.

Not only is he compromised on the issue, he's even using the left's language.

Reproductive rights. That is their language, and he's taking it and saying that that's part of his official position.

We're going to be great for reproductive rights. What is reproductive rights? It's a word to smooch over the unjustified taking of human life, and it is their word, not ours.

So you've got the GOP now removing the issue of abortion from their platform. Trump tweeted this thing of all the things that we're going to do.

Some of them are amazing and wonderful and I'm thankful to God for them, but abortion is suspiciously absent.

It's because he's come out publicly and said that we're not going to win elections if we have the issue of abortion front and center.

So he wants a more centrist position, and he wants to have concessions on the issue of abortion, so we no longer have the support of the

Republican Party and the GOP in the way that we need. And so that is a worse position, practically speaking, than we were in before four years ago or eight years ago.

A much worse position because now we are not only fighting against the pro -aborts in the Democratic Party, we're fighting against Republican leaders who are saying let's get to the center on this and let's make concessions.

That's a far cry from where he was in 2016 when he was interviewed on this issue. And he said what?

When he took the position and he adopted it and he tried to think consistently, he was interviewed, and he said there must be some kind of punishment for women.

I mean, if it's murder, if it's the taking of human life, there must be some kind of punishment. And then his hand was smacked by the pro -life establishment.

We don't want that. We don't want equal protection. Don't say that. And then he went further and further and further down to where now, officially, he's saying

I'm going to be great for reproductive rights. We need your help. We need your help.

We've got a lot of road ahead of us. We've got a lot of work to do. God's doing amazing things. I believe it's possible where things are going within the next two years we could have one of these bills of equal protection actually pass.

I do believe that. I do believe that. But man, oh man, are we in trouble right now. 14 ballot measures happening across the country to enshrine it in their constitutions.

Guys, we've got to pray. We've got to pray. It's a desperate moment. It is a desperate moment because God will not turn a blind eye to this kind of bloodshed.

And we deserve every bit of justice and wrath that is coming to us. No question. I'm begging God for mercy for our nation, for sure.

But we've got a lot coming to us. We do. There's a secret chat if you want to look that up.

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I mean, the man is a legend and I think you just did. The man is a legend and make sure you guys pick it up.

It's old news now. He's a big supporter. Alright guys, thank you all so much. We love you all and grateful. Give me that super chat, sorry.

Oh, super chat. So it said, is this going to affect the FLF conference between Dease and James White?

Thanks for all you guys do. I don't know what that means. I don't know what that means, Aaron. Thank you for the support though. No, I really appreciate the super chat but I'm not sure,

Aaron, what you mean by that. I don't even know about that. I'm sorry. Oh, by the way, let everyone know that we do have

ReformCon 2025 coming. Yes. It's coming, ReformCon 2025. Can we at least tell them the month?

Yeah, well, we have the date. It's the third weekend in April, the weekend after Easter next year.

Okay, there you go. You just heard it here for the maybe first time, right? I think it's the first time we announced it. Yeah, I think so.

And we need to start making sure everyone knows about it. So it's coming April 2025. It's going to be in Tucson, Arizona and we're looking forward to meet all of you.

The last one was epic and awesome. And we're going to be teaming up with the Ezra Institute and Joe Boot, Nos Boot.

And we are very excited about ReformCon 2025 that's coming up. So just get ready. We will be announcing more details and obviously a place for you guys to check in and get tickets very, very soon.

And we're grateful for all of you. That's Luke the Bear. Peace out. I'm Jeff, the Call Me Ninja. That's Zachary Conover.

See you guys. Director of Communications at End Abortion Now. We're going to head over right now to the after show. And so meet us over there at apologiastudios .com.