The Cutting Room Floor Ep 1 - "What is a Church" (Simple Church: Back to Basics Pt 1)

Well, good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening, wherever you are listening to this. I'm Kofi and I'm here with brother Eddie and this is the first episode of the Well, it is the first episode of the cutting room floor podcast Eddie.

How you doing, man?

So far so good, man. I'm excited to be able to contribute in this way and just talk back and forth about church and Kind of what's going on there. So I'm excited.

No, awesome, awesome, so for those of you just stumbled across this. This is a podcast of Redeemer Bible Fellowship in Medford, Oregon and For one thing I preach really long.

Yeah, you do and.

Hey, I was taught to preach for an hour. So I preach for an hour. But with me preaching so long two things happen. One I No doubt raise lots of questions because I'm saying so much and second of all it means I'm having to leave something out now.

Some people might not believe is that you really leave things out. Actually. Yes, I leave a lot in my. And so for a while, I've been thinking about a way in which we can have further conversation about some of the issues that get raised in the messages and some of the things that I would like to get to and often don't get to because of time.

So I Thought through this idea and I saw some other churches do this where they kind of have a Here's what got left on the cutting room floor. Hence the name like the stuff that got cut out from the final edit of the sermon as it were.

So my hope with this is that we can engage a little deeper with what's been preached on Sunday. Primarily this is for our church family and so hopefully as we get this going start to get some questions from our church family about what was preached and be able to Continue a dialogue with the messages that are preached each week.

So that's really our aim for this week. And so well not just this week with this podcast and so with that in mind I will turn it over to Eddie who's gonna chair the discussion.

Yeah, so I think some takeaways from the sermon which I found Very helpful. I know you'd preached on it one other time before. Or no, it was the membership classes, which was really helpful. And so I love that I think one of the things That you might have left out obviously because there's not enough time, but Kofi.

Can you just talk about the idea?

Of.

What you said was? Then you're gonna have to remind me about having spirituality. That's independence from the church. Why does that matter? And I guess what are some arguments that people make for it?

Yeah, okay. Sure. So. Well before we get into let me give a summary of the message for those who haven't heard it yet. So on Sunday, we began a sermon series at Redeemer. We're going for the next eight weeks called simple church volume two back to basics now.

It's called volume two because back in January. I did a volume one where we looked at the means of grace. So we looked at the Word of God.

Prayer.

Baptism and the Lord's table and we asked the question what does God design church life to look like and we kind of boiled it down to really those four things and Everything else we do in church ought to be a manifestation of those four things.

That's why the series was simple church. Well for a while I'd been convicted that it was good for us to go back over some of the basics we usually cover in the context of our membership class and also I felt like there needed to be some Flesh put on the bone as it were some of the stuff I said in that first series.

So decided to take eight weeks after we just finished first Peter to do that study and so one of the things that Eddie just picked up on was I said that one of the Realities that's become prevalent I believe I read from a study by lifeway research said that one of the things we're seeing now is a spirituality that is independent from participation in the local church.

So.

When I you well, we're not when I but when the writer used that phrase and I agreed with it. We're talking about this phenomenon. That's not new. I think in the last couple of years has become very easy to blame everything on kovat.

And there are some things I think with the kovat experience and us locking down our churches were unhelpful to be sure. But I think one thing that became very apparent was it exposed what a lot of people thought and didn't have room to practice which was that Kind of don't need my local church and that may be a blunt way to put it, but that's essentially how it ended up.

Manifesting itself ends up manifesting itself in this idea that I don't really need to go to church to be a good Christian.

So.

You you hear variations on this theme throughout Christian culture at large of late everything from the You know, I just go up into the mountains and that's my church. You hear that variation on that you hear the well, I just you know, I'm part of the you know, universal church.

So I don't need to be part of a local church. I took a shotgun to that dragon on Sunday because I don't see that anywhere in the Bible, but Whether it's you know The I just go off into the mountains and just me by myself with my Bible and in some cases It's not even a Bible just me and myself with God that's you know, that's my church or The I don't need a Local church to be a part of as long as I'm just part of the body of Christ since I'm a Christian I'm part of the body of Christ.

I don't need a church. That's what I'm getting at when we talk about this idea of Spirituality that is Independent from the local church. I don't really need a local church to do the stuff of being a Christian.

I can do that all by myself.

All right, man. Well, I really appreciate that. Can you talk a little bit about? You know, you had your three truths of the biblical church which was the assembly the body Fellowship, can you talk a little bit more about?

The assembly of God's people. That's just so big to me. It kind of just Adds on to what you already said, but it just shows us that that God has not left us to do life on our own. And yet people with us.

And can you just speak a little more on that issue.

Yeah, absolutely. So like I said in a sermon hundred and fourteen times you see the word church used in the New Testament. 109 of them refer to local visible churches. That should tell you something already.

The the local church is incredibly important in the mind of God. Hmm if the vast majority of the time the Bible talks about the church is a local church. That's to give us some pause right there. I think another thing that should give us some pause is the fact that This word and this is the point I made on Sunday.

The word for church implies a gathering. Like it's built into what the Bible understands as church. It's not well. There's this thing called the church and it may or may not gather. Dependence on the circumstances in the biblical understanding a church.

Is a church because the church is a gathering. Whether we're talking about the big g gathering if you will of all of God's people. And a text I didn't get to go to was in john chapter 11. In fact, let me turn to it real quick.

I've got my bible right here so in john chapter 11. You have this interesting case of The high priest at the time of Jesus and they're conspiring like they always are to get rid of Jesus and in john chapter 11 verse 51 there's an interesting little sentence that this is a commentary from.

Uh john at this point. In fact, let me read from verse 49 to give us context. So john 11 and verse 49 the text says i'm reading from the christian standard bible. One of them caiaphas who was high priest that year said to them.

You know nothing at all. You're not considering that it is to your advantage that one man should die for the people than the whole nation perish. He did not say this on his own but being high priest that year He prophesied that jesus was going to die for the nation and not for the nation.

Only.

But to unite and some translations have the word gather together the scattered children of god. So when we talk about this idea of the church, that's what the church is it's the people of god. Who are brought together into one body?

We're in john's gospel in chapter 11 if you flick back a chapter. To chapter 10 jesus uses similar language to describe his own mission. So in john chapter 10 reading from verse 14 jesus says I am the good shepherd.

I know my own and my own know me. Just as the father knows me and I know the father. I lay down my life for the sheep. But I have other sheep who are not from this sheep pen and I would argue when he says that.

He's saying okay, there are the those in the nation of israel who have heard his message, but there are also the gentiles who are coming. And so he says but I have other sheep that are not from this sheep pen.

I must bring them also and they will listen to my voice. Then there will be one flock one shepherd. So again, you've got jesus ministry commented on by john. As being a ministry of gathering together the people of god.

And I think he says that because he's picking up on what jesus himself said. That his ministry existed for the purpose of gathering together the people of god.

And so.

If we divorce The church from the gathering in our thinking We're not being true to what the church actually is if we stop and think about it. It would be akin to me saying. Um.

You know.

I live with laura and we have a son. And we've made a commitment to each other for life. She's taken my last name. I wear a ring. She wears one. But we're not married. I would hope that everyone who just heard me say that last sentence will look at me like Dude, you're married.

That's the definition of a marriage. Yeah. Well when we talk about the church the church by its very nature is a gathering first and foremost a spiritual gathering as god has Gathered together his people.

I think I made a point on sunday that we often talk about the church as the called out people. Well, yes, that's true. The root word does come from the word kaleo to call out, but it's the idea of Called out for the purpose of gathering for the purpose of assembling.

So there is the big g gathering of god's people and then there is the little g gathering of god's people. Which as I said in the message on sunday the invisible the visible church is the invisible church.

Making its imprint in time and space. And so the way we know that there is a big g gathering of all god's people is that god's people get together in smaller local gatherings. And by the way, when we say local we don't necessarily mean local to a area.

We mean local as in a specific place. So there's a specific gathering. That we know as local churches. And so really you can't say as a christian that i'm part of the church. But I refuse to be part of a local church because you're basically saying yes.

I have all the benefits of the big g gathering, but I refuse to be part of the little g. No, both of those follow together. Yeah.

Absolutely. And I would add that you know as we go on to the next one here which is fellowship that that sort of messes that fellowship up because.

Um.

You can't not you can't like be apart from the church because you're missing out on everyone's sort of individual. Um walk with the lord and how the gospel has impacted them individually. You can't share in that.

Um at the same time when you're by yourself, you can't share the glory of god what he's done in your life with other people.

Um, absolutely. Absolutely. And so that's just a big.

A big mistake, you know, and so. Anyway, I really appreciated your your big idea during the sermon, which was A church is the body of people called out by god's grace through faith in christ to glorify him together by serving him in this world.

Um, and so the next point would be the fellowship. Um, can you speak a little more as to what you mean by? Um a little bit towards the end of that section in your sermon. You were talking about a partnership um fellowship.

Participation in christ. I don't think.

Uh.

American contemporary christianity really understands that so can you kind of touch on that a little more?

Sure, um, well two things i'm going to recommend a couple of resources and then i'll go into a little bit more of what I Wanted to say on sunday didn't quite get the time to. Yeah, so for anybody who's interested in thinking about this subject i'm going to recommend two books.

Um.

One is called body life by ray stedman. S-t-e-d-m-a-n Body life by ray stedman. The interesting thing about ray stedman is that he comes from a slightly different theological tradition than I do.

He was sort of the dallas seminary. That sort of world a little more Uh classically dispensational than I would be. And what have you?

Um.

Nevertheless, he wrote this book kind of looking at his own church peninsula bible church in palo alto down in northern california.

And.

As he looked at the state of his own church He began to ask some questions. Why does my church not reflect what I see in the new testament? Which is always a scary question to ask. If you go asking that question, you never know what thread you're going to pull on.

And so.

Looking into that looking into the scriptures. He wrote this book really to try and encourage Healthy new testament church life and i'm glad he did. Because even in the one or two minor areas where I would probably look at things a little differently than brother stedman Who's gone home to be of the lord? I think he rightly puts a finger on the pulse of the fact that We can't say that we are a body If we are not actively engaging with one another in the pursuit of christ.

And that's what true body life as the title says that's what true body life looks like. So that'd be my first resource. Another resource that I would recommend Is a tiny little book you can actually get it from first love publications.

It's called in the footsteps of the lamb by george steinberger. Steinberger was a german writer. And again, he writes about the importance of love In the context of the body of believers and how that works itself out in the life of the body.

Again another excellent read is.

One that i'm.

Relatively newer to a body life. I read a few years ago and it just became a staple in my library.

But.

Uh in the footprints of the lamb. Just came back into print a few years ago in english. And it's incredibly helpful read. I'd highly recommend. It's anybody who wants to know more about this idea of biblical fellowship.

Coffee is that one? Is that on our table footprints in the lamb or something like that?

At one point it was I do need to get some more copies I think we ran out. But at one point it was on our literature table and I will get in touch with first love publications real soon and try and make That happen again.

Nice, I think it's definitely one that's worth having. Yeah, but you know when we talk about the idea of fellowship from a new testament perspective I was very Blunt in saying that I think we have a very westernized view of what fellowship is.

And then there is the biblical view of what fellowship is. Yeah, so westernized view we have is basically it's sanctified hanging out. And so you'll hear people will I saw this back in london. My pastors used to talk about this sometimes.

They would say that oh, there are people who complain about our church and say there's not enough fellowship. And he'd be like well, what do you mean. I'm i was hearing that and thinking what on earth are you talking about.

You've got tons of it. But they're saying no, there's no no fellowship.

Okay. Um.

And finally hit me that what they meant was there are not enough opportunities that the church puts on for me to hang out. That's not biblical fellowship and that's why I went through that litany of verses.

I think one of the key ones is that one I mentioned in first corinthians 1 9. But god is faithful who called you into fellowship with his son. Jesus christ the reality is. Biblical fellowship is not just when we get together and hang out and oh if I say one or two words about You know christianity that's fellowship.

No, it's not. True fellowship is when we come together with the purpose of we are deepening our participation together our Partnership that's I intentionally use that word because that's how that word is used in other places in the new testament.

That we are coming together to sharpen one another to challenge one another to grow deeper. Together as god's people. In our shared participation of all the blessings that god gives us. So for example, we read a passage like ephesians chapter one.

One of the things that hit me a few years ago and again i've taught ephesians before and i've taught that section before. But it only hit me very recently. I wouldn't say in the last year and a half. Everything he talks about there isn't individual.

It's corporate. Like go back and read ephesians 1 those of you who are watching and pay attention to how much he says He made known to us. For example, the mystery of his will he lavished upon us the riches of his grace.

It's very communal in nature. Why. Because god does his work in his people not just individually, but he does so.

Communally.

Hmm and so when we have a skewed understanding of fellowship such that we fail to Appreciate the need for coming together with a specific purpose. I want to be careful, but this is the cutting room for a podcast.

I can say some stuff I left out.

Um.

You know what one of the things that I get concerned about as a local church pastor I'm not saying i've heard this in our church, but just being around church long enough and in enough churches in general.

One of the things you hear often is people saying, you know I would love it if our churches had times for us to just get together without an agenda. And I want to kind of say what on earth do you mean?

Every time we come together we have an agenda. It's called spiritual growth.

Yeah.

Like now that agenda may look different in different contexts. And how we pursue that may look different in different contexts. But there's no such thing as a purposeless getting together of god's people.

Like every time we get together we get together for the purpose of.

Growing.

Deeper one of my favorite books, uh, the trellis in the vine talks about this that idea of growing one more One more step to the right. I'll come back to that book next week when we talk about the purpose of the church.

But that's such a good idea. Yeah, excellent. But growing one step to the right. Actually, no, it was the follow-up the vine project that said that the vine project. But same idea that we want we want people to grow one more step to the right.

We're not looking for people to make gargantuan leaps. Just one more step one more step one more step. And when we get to week eight of the series, we'll get to hebrews chapter 10 24 and 25. You know the way in which we provoke one another to love for god in good works towards one another Is by not assembling the gathering of ourselves together.

So in a sense fellowship is when we come together. But it's when we come together for very specific purposes and for very specific goals.

I really appreciate that kofi. Um, let me back up just a little bit because you said something and I think there's a healthy distinction to be made and so can you. Give us a good distinction between fellowship and discipleship.

Aha, um, we're preempting a little bit of next week's sermon. Oh, okay. So but i'll address it because you asked um. Essentially the difference between fellowship and discipleship is this. Discipleship is the purpose of learning.

Let's put it this way discipleship is learning for the purpose of ministry. That's what discipleship is. Is that we are following christ so that we may serve others as christ has called us to do so. Enough we can have fellowship and not necessarily be thinking about discipleship.

But I will say that healthy fellowship leads people into discipleship relationships. So it's not that I would want to make such a sharp distinction between the two. As much as one leads to the other it's as we get together as god's people as we commune around his word.

We commune around prayer. We get to know one another. That's how we get to know. Okay, this is how we develop these discipling relationships. This is how we develop these Relationships for the purpose of growth and greater pursuit of jesus.

So You're right. There's a distinction. But I would say it's a distinction where you've got one thing that leads to another and they're not quite the same thing.

Okay, well I appreciate that I think that's really helpful. Um, just because I think there are some churches out there that just sort of mix them together and there is no distinction. And that might not always be very helpful, so.

Um.

Well, let's move on. Um kofi you you mentioned during the sermon that or the lerman.

Um.

That we were definitely a lerman by the way. Yeah. And for those of no idea what i'm talking about go back and listen to the sermon. But it was definitely a lerman. No debate about it. That was a lerman yeah.

Well, it was very good. Um. You said um under your historical attributes of the church that little section there that that we are a bible church.

Um.

If I didn't know any better i'd say well like every church is a bible church. Churches are about their bibles, you know. So so could you do. Just add a little more what I guess. What are the major differences? between a bible church and other churches.

I knew someone's gonna ask me about that. Um. So when I say that what I mean is that we're a church where. Let me put it this way. Um, i'm gonna Rip off my brother john benzinger who by the way, please be praying for him.

He's back home after Uh having kidney stones at the weekend. Um had a procedure to blast them and might have to go back in for another one. So be praying for him.

Um.

I call him coach. Uh. Coach has a saying that I heard him say once and it's just burned into my brain. There's a difference between the bible using you to preach its message And you using the bible to preach your message.

Does that distinction make sense.

The.

It's one thing for me to take a bible. This is the one that normally sits on my desk, but to take a bible. And to open up the bible and to allow the bible to set the agenda. That the point of the text is the point of the sermon.

Now again, like I said on sunday that you know. It's not we're slavishly holding to that there are Seasons like what we're doing with the simple church series where okay, you're not in an exposition of a book per se.

But that's one thing but even then you want your ideas and thoughts to be constrained deeply by scripture. Not what I thought up or what somebody else thought up, but can I go to the bible and demonstrate this?

So that's you know, that's one thing but when I say a we're a bible church. What I mean is that we try to allow the bible to set the agenda that when I or anybody else steps into our pulpit. We are allowing the word of god to use us.

To proclaim its message in the power of the spirit as opposed to.

Well.

I had an idea. I then went a thumb through my bible found a few verses that fit my idea and now that's what i'm going to preach to you. Really? It's a it's a question of authority. Really? What's the final authority?

Is it the scriptures? Or is it the ingenuity of men? And you know at redeemer we make a conscious effort. There's a reason that it's called redeemer bible fellowship. Because we make a conscious effort.

In.

Wanting to ensure that whoever stands in our pulpit Faithfully proclaims god's word as god gave it to god's people. Because if we don't do that, then we are held captive to the ingenuity of men and that can be a very dangerous thing when we are held captive to man's ingenuity versus The wisdom of god as revealed in the scriptures.

Thank you for that kofi, I think that honestly that's one of the biggest things that i've appreciated about our small churches. Um the word of god and how much it's read. And I think I was counting is that five times that we have a section Of the word throughout the whole service including the preaching.

Let's see, so. Call to worship Uh. Old testament reading Assurance of pardon new testament reading The sermon Oh benediction. Six six times. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, man, that's normal. But it's good. That just goes to show like how much we need the word in believer now. We need we need more than six times in that small amount of time. Yeah, just because of.

And you know.

Absolutely. I mean for the folks who are watching this who are wondering so we have a you know. We have a very set liturgy for the most part.

Um.

At redeeming bible fellowship and one of the things that when we kind of shook things up in the new year with our liturgy One of the things we wanted to ensure was that the bible still remained central.

That it wasn't there were some churches that are liturgical and then it's here's somebody's like written thing. Here's somebody else's, you know reading someone else's like we wanted to keep the bible still central.

And so for that for us that look like okay our call to worship came from scripture. We have an old testament and a new testament reading. We're currently going through isaiah in the old testament acts in the new.

Every week we give an assurance of pardon from god's word that comes directly from the scriptures. And obviously in the preaching and even in our benediction as god sends us out as his people. He sends us out by his word and with his word.

And so yeah, that's a very intentional thing. We've done my friend mike abendroth out in massachusetts Uh has a fun thing. He says. Some might not find it fun, but I think it's hilarious. He says I don't want a roman catholic to outread me in their church service.

Yeah.

In other words if you've ever been to a catholic service one thing that has gone for it tons of scripture in there. None of it preached but tons of scripture in there. So yeah, that's just an intentional thing we do to make it clear that again you come here.

You're going to hear the word of god and lots of it.

Absolutely. That's one of the points you hit on. We're pretty good is um the historical attributes of the church and Um, you know, there's so many different types of churches and they do it many different ways, but consistently there's always been this sort of Reverential orderliness of the church that when we come to church, we're here to worship the king.

Um.

So I think. Some churches kind of miss out on that, you know, and um, that's extremely sanctifying and it's wonderful for our Spirits in our life and so I really appreciate that about our own service.

Yeah, absolutely. And you know. Sometimes people hear that and they think oh you're basically anti all creativity. Right. No creativity. But it's creativity. It's a reverence creativity. Let me put it that way.

It's one of the things that we hear this term reverence used a lot. Um, i've come to realize that one of the greatest marks of reverence and worship is restraint.

Yeah.

That you don't do everything you possibly could do. Because you want to recognize whose presence you're in.

And so.

Yes, we believe in creativity we believe in excellence, you know, it's not just okay we come together we cobble this thing together. No, like we work hard to be excellent to what we do. It's not a machine at the.

Yes, yes, exactly. It's not a machine like at the end of the day. These are real people Who are coming to worship a very real god with their hearts? And we want everything that we bring to worship our hearts our bodies our voices everything engaged In the worship of god when we gather and so yes, we want to do so with skill and with excellence.

Of course we do but at the end of the day God hasn't commanded us to bring our creativity to worship. He's commanded us to bring obedient hearts to worship.

Amen.

Um.

Yeah, so what do we could we hear a little more on? Let's see here the faithful practice of the church. Ah, yes, I guess what. What are the like when we think of the church and especially in our circle we think of The historical church and the reformation which you mentioned.

I guess. What are the the big differences between then and now? Um in the way we're doing church, you know, what's helpful and what's unhelpful?

Oh, how long do you have?

Um.

Well, I mean it's hard to Kind of speak without you know painting in broad strokes just because you know. There are so many variations on things so many things that churches do differently that can fall within the lines of what is biblically required.

Um.

That's why the reformers were very Succinct in those three points that I gave and towards the end of the message We talked about the faithful practice of the church that the church has the right preaching of the word.

It has the administration of the ordinances. And it has the practice of church discipline. So like those things if those things are done. Well, you have a church. You sometimes we I think we overcomplicate this thing called church.

Sometimes, you know, we think that a church has to have You know a rocking band. It's gotta have like its own building. It's got to have multiple guys paid on staff.

Um.

And you know all kinds of programs and stuff like that. Not really. I think when we look at the bible the churches of the new testament were very simple. But they were powerful because they used the means that god had given.

And so.

When I was mentioning in the sermon on sunday about the faithful practice of the church You will see churches across the spectrum that look different. But maintain those same core marks those same core distinctives.

And I think it's fascinating that when you read the new testament. The new testament does not go into a ton of detail about what things are required and what things are not. The major focus of the new testament is on the heart of worship.

It's on. This might be a good time to talk about elements and circumstances for a moment. So the reformation church rightfully said that there are two different things when we come together in worship.

That there are elements of worship. And there are circumstances of worship. So let me give you an example an element of worship is the preaching of god's word. That's biblically commanded. There's no negotiation.

But for that to happen, we might need some other things. To be in place and to happen so typically in our tradition we have a pulpit well, what's the pulpit do the pulpit serves to. I would argue also serve as a visual reminder, but on a more practical level.

I need someone to put my bible in my notes. Now the bible doesn't mandate what kind of pulpit you should have how big or how small. We can have opinions about that. I have opinions about that. But that's a circumstance of worship.

It's not an element. We could have just one. I could just pull one of the music stands off from The worship team and use that and we would still be worshiping. Our worship would not be affected by that because that's a circumstance.

That's just something we have to facilitate the element. The element is the preaching.