Laboeres' Podcast- Numbers

Welcome to the laborers podcast. We are six seconds in so I apologize for that dead air at the beginning. I think my computer is running slow tonight tonight. We're going to do an overview of Numbers an overview with the laborers.

We hope you will stick with us.

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Now, let's join our laborers for tonight's broadcast.

If you're anything like us. You are probably worn out. Tyler has mentioned that he's he's been dealing with some some sickness this week, maybe. But I'm glad you're doing a little bit better so you could be with us tonight.

How are you feeling?

Much better much better good much better and.

Jonathan.

Tired like me just just tired and in North Carolina been raining Constantly for several days and so that makes you croggy as well. Up in the house and rainy dreary weather. So so yeah, but a little bit tired.

Yeah.

Yeah, you can do that. Especially when it's day after day after day after day. Wow, so. The comment line is open. We'd love to hear from you at least tell us. Hey. Let us know if we can pray for you ask questions critiques.

We're open to that, too. Tonight we are going to do a little laborers overview of the book of Numbers and I learned recently. Tyler I think you you learned recently as well that that God thinks numbers are important.

We learned that from the Southern Baptist Convention. I got a little clip for us. You guys hear that yeah. See my computer is Skipping tonight. It's because I'm trying to upload of another video.

80 I'm almost there. See I like the the cheesy pickup line. I was reading the book of Numbers and I realized I didn't have yours. About two seconds before you get pepper sprayed.

That's a good one. Matt breeding is with us tonight. On vacation, I think. Still on vacation.

And.

Matt and Jeremy two of our laborers. They met up together. Well Matt was vacationing where Jeremy lives. That's so exciting to see laborers that that are able to come together Throughout the year and meet up like that.

That was amazing. So I To me, this is not a typical overview I'm trying to make it a little bit different than what a typical overview of these Books of the Bible would be so I've pulled out some hopefully I'll make some unique different type of questions.

As as a different kind of overview, so my first one looking at the book of Numbers It seems as if we learned that that God Had them to do a census Here and it was it was for military purposes. And I was I was thinking about and and I don't know what you guys think about this but We count we do numbers in in the New Testament Church And we call it membership do you see any kind of connection as you if you looked at numbers the book of Numbers and and his God's purpose in this this census and How God has Done things throughout history What he's done what he's doing in the New Testament Church and where we come up with the idea of church membership.

And we have we have a role we have we have numbers. Do you see any kind of connection there in the purpose of Counting and I was specifically Here in numbers. It was for more military purposes grouping families together and all that.

But but what do you think about numbers as far as you counting people on? And in the New Testament Church.

Well, I think before we can identify the The the correlation between church membership if there is one We do have to grapple with what was the role of numbers in in the book of Numbers, right? I said it was it was military.

It was family that we're talking about a time when they were coming out of Egypt when they're coming out of as it says the house of slavery with an upright hand and so they are being brought into really into a new world into a new way of looking at things into a Covenant relationship with God.

They're going to the land that God has promised them they they're going out of Egypt to this something new something beautiful something good. And In Egypt they didn't have this understanding of necessarily of where they came from.

It's part of why we had the book of Genesis is that Moses is relaying to them where they came from and. So when we notate that they are numbered by their tribe, not only is that a military connotation?

But it's also giving them a sense of where they come from. It's giving them a sense of identity that the you are God's people and your lineage can be traced back as such.

I.

Think before we get into the the church membership idea of carrying that over into numbers. We've got a graph with what was the role of of counting the people of Israel? And what does that signify that they are counted as such.

That they are counted according to families and Camps and tribes that they're they're God's people. And can we count the New Testament Church in light of we are God's people and we can be traced back as such.

I think there's a way we can do that. But the church isn't a business. And so I think there's some balance there. What do you think Jonathan?

Yeah, I I think.

I.

Think number one all through the history of the Bible. Someone was counting you know in the day of Pentecost there was Was it three thousand, you know, and and then you know, Jesus and the fishes and the loaves.

Somebody was counting and you know, so all along like. Like consistently counting was important numbers numbers are important in the New Testament. Attendance is important in the New Testament. There there there's Leveraging of demonstration of the miraculous work of God.

Over masses or sometimes some of the significant numbers are small where two or three are gathered in my name you know what I mean, so it's like like but there's there's specific. Specificity is the word I'm trying to come across there.

It's there's specifics that are very important. So, I think one thing when it comes to Relating to to the book of Numbers, I think there is a strong consideration of first-gen Exodus. Second-gen inheritors because you really have in the census of numbers you have you have a first generation that is doomed to die in the wilderness and will not inherit that the promised land and.

Then you've got a second gen that they're also counting them that do go to war and and inherit the promised land. And so I think I think it's it is like Tyler said a historical and generational thing but I also think it's it's a clear separation of The consequences of disobedience and yet God's faithfulness to the children of the promise and.

And I think that's that's very crucial to look through that because then at the end of the book of Numbers. What we get is there's this census of that second gen is preparation for going into the land of Canaan it's like a preparation and so but then I did think about this and it doesn't mention this in there, but Statistically just sheer survival in a wilderness land of rationing food rationing water.

Those kind of things even the Lord was providing that there was still it was still important to know how many you have and how many rations you have and because the land in the wilderness obviously was next to impossible to cultivate to have farming and to have those kind of things and so so even when The Sabbath was being observed and there was a portion God told him.

You know when the when the quail and the manna would come to collect up enough for the next day and those kind of stuff. Well, how much did they know to collect? How much did they know to to do that? Well, there had to be a number there had to be even down to the family units.

To make sure each family was fed each family was taken care of and so on and so forth when you're thinking about this massive group of people. That's getting water from a central location and getting you know, you can't all show up at one time.

So it's so so it to me it demonstrates as well a God of order, you know, it's it's order and and and God is not disordered he is ordered and he is walking through that and and numbers really is if you think about it with no technology with no no Electronic poles no paper by say to fill out this form and mail it back in those kind of things it really is a phenomenon of of the work of God and The intelligence of an ancient people to be able to have very accurate Numbers, you know to have those census and the amount of work and labor.

That we don't know the exact methodology per se. According to Scripture historically we can dig up some stuff of what's thought of but you know. It's uh, you talk about standing in line for a long time and people writing stuff down by hand and and the Hebrew.

Alphabet doesn't really have numbers in it. Correct? Yep. So it's it's pretty wild when you think about.

How the Lord works to organize. But again when I think about Going to your question of church membership that that was my best parallel that I could think of was the generational People that there was.

There was a generation that was under the curse that wandered in the wilderness and would die in the wilderness. But there was a redeemed generation that would receive the promised the promise of the promised land and You know, and that's who we are grafted into.

We're not called to walk in the wilderness. But we've received a promise through the covenant of Christ to inherit a promised land. You know and and that's that's exciting when I think about that and so church members Ought to be of that second generation of not not children of disobedience, but of obedience walking according to the promise and.

So therefore we're counting those.

That.

Profess and bear fruit of Christian faithfulness, you know, and they're and they are important to be identified as members of the church like capital C and then of course. Participating members in the local church, you know, and I'm doing it learning from them.

Yeah. We're doing that this week. We've got a we've got a church vote Sunday and you know, we literally printed off our census of the church roll and it's going to be a ballot vote on on the potential buying some property and so.

So literally the people that are on that list that census roll their families they're the ones that are eligible to actually vote and it legally be counted toward the purchase of the potential purchase of this property, so.

So it just brings order and it brings.

Identification of commitment. Well, I think that's a those are excellent points, but you know thinking about order there and Talking about looking back on them and which generation we should be and and how the New Testament says we should Look at them as examples of what what not to do and and further reflecting on what you guys were talking about.

You know Jonathan as you were talking about the numbers I also thought about conversation that we had and I think about some Psalm 115 God is in the heaven God is up in the heavens and he does all that he pleases.

And then that particular verse that we were discussing Hebrews chapter 2 verse.

4.

Where at the end of it it says He does things according to his will which there are plenty other verses that say that but he does things according to his will. So the the numbers. The numbers for us are important.

But it's not it's not that it's in each circumstance. It's not The big numbers. God uses different kinds of numbers in different circumstances so like here in this book. When you get to is is it King Balak Seeking after Balaam to curse Israel because because Balak King Balak is like there's too many of them.

And I need some I need some help, but then you have The other circumstance where they're they're lapping up water and and God is decreasing their numbers To show his power and his glory. And then you have the the circumstance where they're standing up on the hill looking down at the camp.

And there's there's you know fewer of them, but then when the enemy's looking up They see a great horde because God has you know placed his angels there. So in different circumstances, he uses numbers differently to show his glory.

And.

Yep, Tyler just reflecting on what you said you were talking about showing value to people I think and It made me think about the ditch that some people don't fall into where we're. Jesus died on the cross because we're we're valuable.

No, we don't want to fall into that ditch, but we also want to recognize that and both of you kind of touched on this that that God has Kept numbers kept a census kept a record of his people. Because he values his creation.

He puts the value on it. He values his creation and so that's kind of where I put the tie-in. I mean that there's unless maybe I dig a little bit further and a General maybe tie-in to here and the New Testament and membership is the fact that God God values his creation He values his people.

He values his church and. And in that value, we know who the widows are. We know who the orphans are. We know who to take care of and and like you said when you're organizing a military You want to know what numbers you have?

What groups? How many is in each group and who you need to protect and take care of so. That's kind of where I drew a connection between here and there and God's value on taking care of his people.

So one of the thing I'd add to that real quick is it has God not always had a census to Like is God not before the foundations of the earth been writing names, you know or written name in You know and the Book of Life and the Lamb's Book of Life and those kind of things and so right.

So this is not just a earthly matter. It's a heavenly matter that's manifested in the earth. You know what? I mean? It's it's it's still overarching a God of order as census a listing Of God's people, you know, and I think it's making it digestible I'm sure it's not written in heaven exactly the way we would think it's written.

But I'm just saying, you know, I mean There's the Bible specifically speaks of books that will be open and And in judgment and those kind of things, you know, so. So, you know, this is this is this is the design will and the in demonstrating the attributes of God I guess is what I'm saying that to me that makes it Interesting because a lot of people take the Pentateuch those first five books and say man this is really boring the law and these numbers and these kind of things, but it's Very important to the attributes of God and who he is, too.

Yeah, yeah.

I was gonna ask something to that. It may come back to me. Looking at looking at my next question. I wanted to kind of.

To.

Rethink that next question and impose it like this because I was reflecting on when they camped when they were when they were going through the wilderness and of course they disobeyed and they were Doing circles because of their disobedience and they wandered for 40 years when they camped.

They set up camp a certain way. There was a design to their camp God had they had been ordered into their family groups and Their family groups whatever family group you were in you were. You camped on a certain cardinal direction from the center of the camp and Then the the Levites were around the inner circle of the camp and then in the very middle was.

Was the presence of God the tabernacle the Ark of the Covenant? That's God was in the middle. He was in the center and.

I.

Think I was reading somewhere that it was the the the Levites, of course, they didn't they weren't permitted to Be in the battle to fight they were Serving the tabernacle serving the Lord in that way, but I was reading somewhere that they were to to keep the people out from the tabernacle keep away from God's presence, but an another key point that I saw in looking at this was that It was the fact that God was in the center.

All the people were on the outside. They had certain areas based on their family group. But the thing about it was when when they left when when when God's presence. The cloud when when it left they got up and left and they the Ark led them God led them.

But when they camped God was in the center and I I just saw that as a picture a beautiful picture of Their mindset or what their mindset was supposed to be and in our mindset in the church. That when we when we gather together.

When we lead in a local congregation or when we work together even like this. That's how we should camp with with God in the center. So, how can we do that? How can we reflect? You know, I know the New Testament says and I think it's first Corinthians and Hebrews that We're to look at them as examples of what not to do, but also How God wanted them to be and when they did get it right like here God was at the center.

So, how can we translate that over into? The our local church. How can we how can we camp? How can we? What do you call it when we send people out when we do that, we're keeping God at the center and then we're.

We're.

We're encouraging them to follow the Lord when they leave.

How can we do that in our local church? I'll take a quick stab at it while Tyler's thinking. I think in Western culture church and and I've not spent a lot of time outside of that kind of church. So so that's the reason I'll quantify it to that.

And especially the way churches are set up today. This is not an indictment. It's a it would be a warning especially congregationalism in our in our modern times. It's not that all congregationalism is bad what I'm saying is though it lends itself to be a man-centered church and in the appeasement of people versus a group of people seeking the will of God and and so.

So it is very clear through the Exodus and And through the land of Canaan and and even tonight later. We'll talk about you know, a guy named Balaam I mean it very clear that God is in charge. God is completely in charge.

He is the one that's completely in Directive of this even among a grumbling sinful people God is a hundred percent in charge and he's constantly bringing correction to that and. So so I think a God centeredness Christ centeredness a gospel centeredness a biblical centeredness.

I Think we have to reflect on who's in charge of our local churches. So if you're asking how do we keep God at the center of things? It's it's really a question of whose church is this even the local church?

Who does this belong to and who's in? So we have a lot of pastors with large Personalities and so then the pastor becomes the center of the church or or like I said in congregational votes and Those kind of things or deacons or elders or whoever it's very simple for those people to become The voice in the center of the church and it's about what they want and about How to keep people happy and how to keep people appeased in those kind of things.

But the cool thing about how God designed this was There was an untouchable place where people did not dare go and that is because God was holy and in charge and and holy H OLY and W H OLY like completely holy and completely in charge and no one dared Question him and those that did paid some fear.

And.

And we see that through the wilderness wanderings and and ultimately those that were not obedient to him and lacked faith Paid severe consequences. They died in the wilderness. And so so I think in to help keep God in center I think it's a simple question.

Who who who does this church belong to? And if we get that right that it belongs to God and it belongs to Christ and we are stewards of what? Belongs to him. Then it makes sense. Then Why don't we ask him what we should be doing in our local church, you know, and then let him.

Going back to the conversation that the laborers had a while here a few weeks ago. How does God speak? Let God speak and then be obedient because it all belongs completely to him. So. So I think that's what's missing in a lot of New Testament churches today is We're looking very pragmatic at things we're looking at according to our reasoning according to human logic and according to the appeasement of people versus What does God want and then let's do something about that.

Let's go for it, you know, so pretty simple, but a Lot of times it's a big shift.

Just some just my thoughts on listening what you just said. So you and I've had conversations on on dead churches or churches that need revitalization and and there with Israel. Something that you mentioned was the fact that they they had a physical Holy of Holies, they had a physical ark and if they were if they touched the ark, then they they were expired.

They were no more and they couldn't touch the mountain or they would die they that would they had a physical place like that, but if You were talking about in in our context our spiritual Holy of Holies.

This is just how I'm seeing what you said. We we have a spiritual Holy of Holies to where if we if we enter in and touch that then we've got. We're facing a dead church and and that spiritual Holy of Holies what I was hearing you say was this is this is God's church His way and when we step in and try to touch that and then try to do it our way.

Then then we're facing a dead church instead of a live church.

Is it yeah.

100 man, that's that's illustrated perfectly. It's a it's a Romans 9. Is it 20? Who are you old man to speak back to God? I like I don't love the NIV version. But I like the translation in that one is that who are you old man to talk back to God?

Like how dare you? So if we if if we ought to fear our parents to the point that we don't talk back to our parents. How dare we speak back to God, you know, and but a lot of our churches have said well.

We know God said this but and as soon as you put a butt in there now you've diminished the authority the Absolute sovereign authority of God and there's there's just no room for that. So so I'm thankful for for illustrations like this and numbers where no one dare approach and.

And you line up or face consequences, yeah, but that's great what you said is.

Well, you know pastor Jonathan there's a there's a deep humility in in this conversation too from both the the members perspective and the the elders perspective because Sometimes Bible interpretation and and perspective is hard.

And so we have members that have a different Interpretation or different perspective and think maybe we should go in a different direction and it takes genuine and spirit empowered humility to submit to your elders and then from the elders perspective We want to get it, right.

That's right.

Sometimes it's difficult to understand and so it takes a spirit empowered humility from the elder side to say Okay, this is where we believe God is speaking from his word this is his holy of holies and this is how he wants to do it and we need to lead in this direction and.

That's humbling. Yeah, because you know being knowing that you're gonna be held accountable for those decisions and what you're teaching. It's powerful and it's humbling.

Absolutely. Amen.

Do you have any thoughts on that Tyler? I?

Don't think I can top any of what just came out you to. Think you to hit the nail on the head there with the the imagery in the camp I.

Like I like to the role of the Levites are very important to you know, when we're talking about those as Protectors, but what were they protecting from? That's what's really important. The hey, they weren't protecting people from sin.

They they were that buffer Between the wrath of God and the people, you know, so. So that's that's very important also to point out that as elders leaders. Keepers of the temple keepers of the faith protectors of the flock.

You know there there is and and we see that directly with Moses as the people were disobedient and God said, you know, I'm I'm going to destroy this people and come on Moses mean you'll make a new people.

And we see Moses intercede and intervene it's it's a Christology and if it's in a way, you know that there's that that intercession and those kind of things so you know, so that's important to evaluate that and and to see that but a lot of times the elders of the modern-day church are.

Are that buffer pleading with people pleading with people the will of God as God has revealed to the leadership of the church the pastors of the church the The those that are ordained for that position they're pleading with people.

You can't force people and that's and that's the hard part, you know, I mean a lot of times leadership wants to force them so but but we're we're pleading with people not to Not to face the judgment of God rather Enter into the blessings of God line up with with the will of God and there's a blessing that comes with that.

So So not all churches are that way that are congregational so I hope no one that hears this would think that All congregation led churches that don't have elders are incapable of it because there are very sincere groups that That do Seek the Lord and hear from him.

And so I'm not saying that Pastors or elders are the only ones that can hear from the Lord. I know you're not saying that either on it. There's a mutual accountability from brother to brother sister to sister and you know, and all those things.

Yeah, but. But again, it still goes back to in Discipleship, I ask these questions a lot. We read a passage of Scripture and we ask two questions. Number one. What is God saying? What is God saying in this text and then as a result of understanding the text now?

What is God saying to you? And then number two, what are you gonna do about it? And and that's. But who's the leader of that conversation it's it's God. God's the center of That and his word is the center of that and so I think that's very important so either you have a man-centered church or a God-centered church and there's and there's No man can serve two masters.

Yeah, so.

Well, and that's where we can learn from Israel as well because I mean that's that's why they were Stranded in the wilderness for 40 years some of that. They bet they went back to being man-centered.

They were they looked at their circumstance look at their condition. We had it better here why did you lead us out here just to die. And they were looking at their circumstances looking at their self and their wisdom.

They say melt melted down for a golden calf to worship. I mean and and we can we can do those things we and tempted to do those things as well. When we don't we don't think God is moving in the right direction or is moving too slow or whatever the case may be.

We're tempted to do that hundred percent. So you mentioned Christology? Let's let's jump on down to that that next section to we're looking at Christ. So Moses. Moses was their their leader. Leaving Egypt and that's where You know, there's where the book begins.

He was he was God's prophet and God's lawgiver. So, so how does how does Moses in this role that we see him in how does he point to Christ.

Won't you jump in Tyler? Well, we start off with Moses. Honestly, we start off with Moses as a shepherd in the desert. I Think we can honestly start back there with tracing the lineage. I'm not the the the patterns with Moses and how they point us to Christ that Moses went into the wilderness.

He was a shepherd and he was called out of the wilderness To deliver his people. And he does and he does so he delivers his people out of Egypt into the place of blessing. Or at least that was the intent.

But just like Moses was rejected Christ was rejected by the Jews. So from there I'm. I'm sorry. My my brain just went blank.

When you're talking about his rejection, I was thinking about how Moses was even at one point were rejected by his brother and sister. And so that that parallel I'm thinking about Christ and Being being rejected by his His closest friends.

Everybody walked away.

But even just to go back to what you were saying earlier about Moses as an interceder For the people of Israel that that buffer Between the wrath of God and the people. I'm working through the book of Job right now on bread of the word and one of the recurring themes in Job is That I have no mediator.

I.

Have no intercessor that he felt like he needed someone to. Stand in the gap both between him and his friends and between him and God. And so I find that dynamic interesting with Moses as interceder in that it points us to Christ who interceded on our behalf.

Who offered himself freely in our place? And that's I believe typified by Moses Speaking to God on our behalf.

Before we move forward into these examples Let me let me ask you this and get your thoughts on this. So If somebody's listening and maybe they're not familiar with Bible conversation church conversations the books of the Bible this type of conversation maybe an atheist what whatever the case may be and We're looking at how Moses or how these different things in the Old Testament Parallel or compared to Jesus on the surface.

It looks like we're just doing a parallel and we're saying what a coincidence how ironic. But it's not that. So, can you speak to what what it is that makes it so significant that we look at these parallels that Moses.

Points to Jesus. I was listening to something on this actually today. So what we're honestly looking at is we're looking at a unified story we're looking at one divinely given story about one divine author and So this story from Genesis to Revelation is one author that he's just tying this this one strand.

And it all all these different stories. They kind of intersect because they're all unite on that one strand. And if I took this took a sweater and started pulling a at one strand I can unravel a whole sweater.

It's it's like that that it's all Interwoven together. These are patterns. This is the the general architecture of the story that God is writing. He starts this in the Old Testament with Moses and Joshua Abraham etc, etc.

That's while they're still Human characters that did exist and had that they were their own people there are elements of their behavior there are patterns and things that they endured that point us to a Bigger picture and that bigger picture being Christ on the cross.

And so we're not. We're not just finding coincidences, but these are patterns that exist because God has written them that way. It says in Luke 24 That Jesus started from the law of the prophets and the Psalms and taught his disciples all things from those scriptures concerning himself.

Because the the key to unlock all of those things is Christ.

And I'm flipping the Hebrews as quickly as I can because it just made me think about the passage one of the passages that Dan and I on the truth and love podcast where we're going through Hebrews and Hebrews chapter 2 for it was fitting for him for whom are all things and through whom are all things.

In bringing many sons to glory to perfect the author of their salvation through suffering. For both he who sanctifies those who are sanctified are all from one father. For which reason he is not ashamed to call us brethren.

So It was fitting for him to come down so that he could call us brethren that he could suffer Since the children Share in flesh and blood he himself likewise also partook of the same that through death he might render powerless him who had power of death that is the devil and Might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives for surely He does not give help to angels, but he gives help to the descendants of Abraham.

Therefore he had been he had to be made like his brethren in all things so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest and things pertaining to God to make propitiation for the sons of the people.

For since he himself was tempted in that which he has suffered He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted. So It's it is a parallel and it is a Pointing is a type and shadow pointing to Jesus but in that pointing and in that comparison in that parallel Jesus suffers this In similar ways as Moses, which my next one was, you know, Moses was rejected by not just his People his brother sister.

He was rejected by the the Levite priests the the religious leaders. And what do we see in Jesus like he was rejected by the religious leaders the Sadducees the Scribes the Pharisees and so Jesus came down as our brother and suffered so that he could be a merciful and loving high priest.

Knowing and going through what we go through. So what a loving and merciful Savior is he that he would do that for us? A number of forces there was a remnant that believed in God. So, what do you see that parallel.

Yeah.

Yeah, I love it encourages me a lot of times when.

You.

You read about Paul and there are the Apostles and maybe get exasperated frustrated or rate a rollout and Even the Prophet Elisha, you know later in. And the prophets of Baal or Elijah. Sorry Elijah the prophets of Baal, you know God says I've always got a remnant.