May 23, 2017 Show with Thaddeus Williams on “Reflect: Becoming Yourself by Mirroring the Greatest Person in History” PLUS Mark Chanski on “Discipleship In Your Family”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnson. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 23rd day of May 2017.

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And before I introduce my guest and our topic, I want to give a praise report from someone who has been a guest on Iron Sharpens Iron a couple of times, who

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I've gotten to know over the last couple of years, Cindy Martin Morgan, the daughter of Walter Martin, who is the founder of the

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Christian Research Institute, and he was a frequent guest on the John Ankerberg Show, where he was involved in many debates with cult members and representatives of the

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Roman Catholic Church and others, which is where I actually started developing my love for debate.

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But the late Dr. Walter Martin's daughter, Cindy, has a praise report for her daughter, and her daughter was diagnosed with skin cancer, melanoma,

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I believe, and she says, Hi friends, thanks so much for prayers for our daughter, Stacy. We found out this morning that the cancer has not spread to her lymphatic system.

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Praise God. The doctor was able to get all of the cancer. God is good.

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So I just wanted to pass on that praise report from Cindy Martin Morgan.

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And I am so delighted to have today on the program, for the very first time ever,

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Thaddeus Williams. He is assistant professor of theology at Biola University in La Mirada, California, former teacher of literature at Saddleback College, jurisprudence at Trinity Law School, philosophy at Labrie Fellowship in Switzerland and Holland, and ethics for Blackstone Legal Fellowship and Federalist Society in Washington, D .C.

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He is also the author of Love, Freedom, and Evil, Does Authentic Love Require Free Will, which

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I definitely have to have him back on this program to discuss in a future date. But today we are discussing, for the first hour, his book,

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Reflect, Becoming Yourself by Mirroring the Greatest Person in History. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio for the very first time,

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Thaddeus J. Williams. Thank you, Chris, and it is a joy and privilege to be with you. And in studio with me is the

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Reverend Buzz Taylor, my co -host. Hello once again. All right, good to meet you. And you had your volume off their buzz.

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I am here, honest. And I am so delighted to also learn something that I didn't even know before the program started, is that our guest today,

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Thaddeus J. Williams, is a longtime friend of my longtime friend,

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Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. That was a great bit of trivia to hear.

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Yeah, he's a dear brother who helped open my eyes up to the doctrines of grace.

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It was a combination of the one -two punch of James White and Jonathan Edwards. Well, you mean one -two -three punch.

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One -two -three punch, the Holy Spirit. And a one -two -three -four punch with actually reading the

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New Testament. Yeah, that's right. It's been a while now, hasn't it?

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Yes, and in fact, I have to just very quickly tell you, I'll give you an abbreviated version of the story, but years ago when

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I was working for WMCA, which is a Salem station, Salem's the largest

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Christian radio network in the world, and I was contacted by an elderly

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Jewish journalist who was retired, and he asked me if he could buy three hours of radio time because he was debating a local fundamentalist

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Baptist on whether or not the New Testament was the

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Word of God. And he fancied himself a student of the New Testament, said he read it hundreds of times, although he was not a

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Christian. And during the debate, the Jewish man, I believe his name was

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Ira, if I'm not mistaken, he says to the fundamentalist Baptist pastor, now let me get this right.

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You believe that before the foundations of the world, God chose a specific group of people to be saved, bypassing all the rest of humanity.

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And the fundamentalist pastor interrupted him and said, excuse me, Ira, I'm not a

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Calvinist. You're talking about Calvinism. He goes, what? What did you say? He goes, you're talking about Calvinism.

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He goes, what's that? Well, that's what you're talking about. You are describing Calvinism because I don't know what you're talking about, but I'm talking about your

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Bible, your New Testament. This man came to the conclusion that that was what

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Christianity taught, unconditional election, without even knowing anything about Calvin, the

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Reformers, or anything like that. There it is. Just from reading the Bible over and over again, the New Testament.

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And by the way, before we even get into your book at hand,

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Reflect, Becoming Yourself by Mirroring the Greatest Person in History, tell us about the other book that I definitely have to have you back to discuss,

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Love, Freedom and Evil, Does Authentic Love Require Free Will? And I can really sigh a great, loud sigh of relief knowing that you have become a

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Calvinist before asking that question, but anyway. Yeah, that book came out of my

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PhD dissertation at the Free University of Amsterdam, and really what inspired me to write it was

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Jonathan Edwards' Freedom of the Will, and realizing this is just so brilliant, it is so biblical, it is so logically rigorous, where what

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Edwards is up to in that book is not only engaging the Arminian theology of his day in their best arguments, he's actually making their best arguments better than they did, and then refuting those too.

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And so that book had a big impact on me realizing the sovereignty of God over every square inch of life and over salvation.

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So I was looking at the evangelical landscape and seeing this pervasive idea that the reason there's evil in the world is because God gives us this gift of free will, we abuse that gift so we're to blame, and free will is a necessary condition of real love.

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And I just saw big problems with that theologically and in ministry.

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So theologically, it seemed like, well, in the Trinity, that the Son can't walk away from the Father and choose not to love him, but it's still the most authentic love in existence that has always existed between Father, Son, and Spirit, so maybe freedom isn't the condition of love we think it is.

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But in practical ministry, one thing I noticed is, as people would come to me with struggles, it could be a pornography addiction, it could be a broken marriage, that the real root problem is a lack of love, and if I were to just tell them what a lot of the theologians were saying, just resort to your free will, use your libertarian free will to try to love harder, that's not helpful counsel and it's not biblical counsel.

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The way Paul handles porneia, sexual immorality with the Thessalonians, is he prays, may

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God cause you to increase and abound in love, and there seems to be a premise there that God is sovereign over the human heart, he can change our affections, he can cause us to love in ways that we wouldn't love if left to our own devices.

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So I wanted to unpack that theologically, exegetically, philosophically, and practically to serve the local church.

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Well, if you keep your eye open for an email from me after the show is over, I would love to invite you back on the program to discuss that, and I will send you a calendar of available dates.

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Absolutely, sounds great. And even one more time before we get into your book,

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Reflect, I'd like to hear something very briefly, of course a summarized version of your own personal testimony of how our sovereign

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Lord in his providence drew you to himself and saved you. Sure, so I was raised

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Mormon until I was about five years old. Wow, this is another thing I didn't know. Yeah, a little fun fact of my bio there, raised

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Mormon, and my parents met a woman who loved

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Jesus and who had been exposed to the counter -cult work of Walter Martin, who you referenced earlier.

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And so this woman knew her theology, she knew the differences between the Jesus who actually saves, who actually exists, and the

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Jesus of Joseph Smith's imagination, and she was able to explain that to my parents in a winsome and clear and biblical way, and they ended up leaving the

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Mormon church when I was a kid, and I kind of followed along into just a non -denominational evangelical church, and went through the motions, but it wasn't...

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I hadn't experienced regeneration until being 14 years old, and waking up and feeling the meaninglessness of everything in a godless universe, and wrestling with all these big existential questions, and what's the point of it all, and finally got to the point where I had to tell my parents,

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I had to tell my dad, you need to hide the shotgun because I'm afraid I'll use it. Wow. I just hit the utter abyss of despair.

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Wow. And my parents were just utterly shocked because, you know, on the exterior I was going to church,

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I was an Iwano earning my Iwana bucks, memorizing scripture and getting good grades, everything looked good, but inside I was just all torn up.

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So the night I tell them, they invited me to a church service where I heard the same gospel

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I had heard thousands of times before, and the only difference, you know, that night

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I didn't walk into that church smarter or more spiritual than the day before. I was just as dumb and spiritually dead as ever, but the

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Holy Spirit, in his grace, flipped the on switch, like divine defibrillator paddles jolted spiritual life into my corpse, and I heard the gospel and responded and have been enjoying

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Jesus ever since. Praise God. Praise God. 24 years ago, yeah. Oh, praise

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God. Well, I'm going to give our listeners our email address. It's chrisarnson at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com, if you have a question for our guest

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Thaddeus Williams. And I really hope that you are not going to be insulted by this, but when

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I first saw the title of your book, Reflect, Becoming Yourself by Mirroring the Greatest Person in History, I got a little nervous because I was wondering if there was going to be a forward by Joel Osteen.

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I couldn't afford him. In fact, I was actually expecting to see his face on the cover underneath the greatest person in history.

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But that doesn't sound like a typical reformed title, if you follow what

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I'm saying. Explain if you could. Yeah, it's intentionally subversive. It's titled to almost sound like a typical self -help book, a believe in yourself, an

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Osteen -esque, be a better you today kind of thing. But like I said, in a subversive way, where we have a culture that says, become your true self by looking within, the answers are within, be true to your own emotions, express yourself.

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I mean, this is just kind of the 21st century postmodern gospel of believe in yourself, and it's just this false gospel.

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And so I'm picking out some of the language from that and trying to redeem it and saying, look, you don't become yourself by being obsessed with yourself.

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You become yourself by fixating on Jesus. That's how you become your true self.

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It's what Jesus is getting at with, you know, you seek to save your life, you're going to lose it. The people who try the hardest to find their true selves end up in a chronic identity crisis.

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It's the ones who get over themselves, and they're so focused on Jesus as revealed in time -space history, as revealed in the scriptures.

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Those are the people who wake up and realize exactly who they are, because they haven't really been thinking about themselves.

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They've been too focused on worshiping and enjoying Jesus. Well, I'm going to read a couple of endorsements for this book.

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One is from someone who has been a guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio way back when he was on the pastoral staff at Second Presbyterian Church in Greenville, South Carolina, and that is

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Gabriel Fleur, and I still don't know if I'm pronouncing his name right, but he is a minister of discipleship at First Presbyterian Church in Jackson, Mississippi now, and we have had people from that congregation on the program as well.

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But he says, Williams is one of the most exciting theological voices writing today. And J .P.

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Moreland, distinguished professor of philosophy at Talbot School of Theology, a name that many may recognize who are apologetics junkies, he says, an astonishing, absolutely unique treasure.

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And we have also the president of Biola University, Barry H. Corey, he says, a brilliant resource for 21st century people seeking to live meaningfully in a world where meaning is harder and harder to find.

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Very impressive endorsements indeed from some impressive people.

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This book, I think you were actually wise in giving it the title that you did because I think many people who are less likely to pick up a book that is openly a theologically driven treatise or something technical, they may more readily start to dig into this and hopefully, by God's grace, have their lives and their theology transformed.

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But you have, starting off in your book, mirroring the profound thinking of Jesus.

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If you could tell us what you mean specifically by mirroring the profound thinking of Jesus.

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Sure. So I argue on the opening pages that, and this is something that came out of teaching at a secular college for almost a decade, where the first class

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I was ever asked to teach was called History of Atheism. And I show up the first day and there's me, this young reformed guy in a crowded classroom with 50 atheists.

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And it was a great kind of covert mission field there for quite a few years. And one of the things

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I realized over the years of teaching classes like that was there aren't really any true atheists at the end of the day.

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They might claim to not believe in a God or a higher power, but they were all on their knees to something or someone.

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They all either elevated maybe a political ideology, maybe Progressivism with a capital

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P was their gospel, maybe Science with a capital S was their gospel. Maybe they worshiped their boyfriend, girlfriend, wife, spouse, child.

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And it just became clear to me that everybody worships, which is something that Paul has been saying for thousands of years right there in Romans 1 and 2.

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We're all worshipers. It's not a question of whether to worship, it's whether you're going to worship the Creator or the creation.

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And so then the Bible goes further and says not only do we worship, but we're all in the process of becoming like what we worship for better or worse.

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So in Psalm 115, they worshiped dumb idols, and the dumb idol worshipers themselves became dumb and insensitive and basically lost their souls.

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And so what I'm up to in this book is saying if we really truly worship Jesus and don't just claim to, we'll become like him.

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And that's going to every square inch of our personality. That's going to affect our intellectual life.

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And so in the first real chapter there, I dive into nine attributes of the mind of Christ that the more we worship him, we'll begin to reflect.

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Could you go through those? I mean, I know that we only have an hour with you today, but it may give you more of a reason to be with us for two hours next time.

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Absolutely. Yeah. So one of the things that the whole chapter is an exegesis of Matthew 22, where Jesus is about to be asked by a lawyer, you know, out of the 613 rules of the

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Old Testament, what's most important? And he says, you know, loving God with heart, mind, soul, strength.

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And I think the best way to exegete that text, what does it actually mean to love

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God with our minds is to look at Jesus himself, because he not only gave the great commandment, he kept it better than anyone in history.

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He loved the Father fully with his mind. And so if you look at Matthew 22, we get a glimpse of what a mind that fully loved the

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Father looks like in action. And so I talk about this scene on the temple steps where the

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Sadducees are squaring off with Jesus on the question of the afterlife, and, you know, their agenda is to make him look like an idiot in public, that's what they're trying to do.

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And the way he responds to them isn't to say, you know, hey, what's that over there, and run and hide in a cave?

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It's not to give him a little condescending pat on the head and say, just believe because I say so.

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It's not to bully them and say, how dare you question me, I will smite thee with a mighty smiting.

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A mind that fully loved the Father gives a cogent, biblical response.

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And so I unpack all that in the chapter with nine attributes, and just a few of them.

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A mind that fully loved the Father knows Scripture. Jesus is able to build an argument for the afterlife based off the verb tense of a single

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Hebrew word way back in Exodus 3, 6. And so he had a command, a mastery over Scripture, that the more we worship and become like him, the deeper acquainted we'll become with God's authoritative word.

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Jesus also, a mind that fully loved the Father, thinks logically. Jesus was able to expose a false premise in the

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Sadducee's argument, and build in about three sentences just a knock -down, drag -out argument for life after death and a bodily resurrection.

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And so we often think of spirituality as, you know, I'm standing with my arms outstretched while the worship band jams out a few songs, but for Jesus, thinking logically, building good arguments, and exposing bad arguments, is part and parcel of his spiritual life.

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It's part of his moment -by -moment connection and relationship with the Father. I talk about the creativity of Jesus.

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He was able to tap into people's imaginations. I talk about his inspirational mind, that he was able to inspire scientific revolutions and philosophical breakthroughs, and inspires to study history and how all spheres of knowledge find their deepest meaning, their ultimate source and standard of truth in Christ himself.

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So there's kind of a snapshot, there's four or five of the nine for you, but they got to buy the book to get the rest.

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I think we do have some influence from Joel Osteen after all. Actually, I don't know if he does it that crassly on his program, but some of the people in his ilk do anyway.

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We have Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York. He's asking a question that is more related to your book

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Love, Freedom, and Evil, but he says, Do you think that Martin Luther's Bondage of the

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Will is a good dissertation to the subject of the fall of man and how it corrupted man's nature?

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I think Bondage of the Will, I would put it on my top five all -time books on the doctrine of depravity.

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And Luther himself, out of all of his theological works, he rated that his personal favorite.

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That was from his debate with Erasmus, correct? Yeah, absolutely. He saw that that was his quintessential work, that was the one he wanted to be remembered for.

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And you could see, you know, 16th century, Luther had already anticipated the same arguments that are being regurgitated today to defend the unbiblical concept of libertarian free will.

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And he just tackles it with biblical depth, with philosophical clarity, a lot of the same attributes of the mind of Christ I was just listing off from the

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Reflect book. Luther exemplifies those in just a superb way in that book.

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High, high recommendation. Yeah, I can remember, to bring up our mutual friend

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James White again, I can remember years ago when he was debating, it was more like a friendly conversation than a debate, but he was having a discussion, if you will, with Dave Hunt, the late

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Dave Hunt, on a radio program where they were disagreeing on Calvinism.

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And James said to him, and I'm of course paraphrasing, aren't you concerned,

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Dave, that you are on the side of Erasmus rather than the side of Luther in the great debate of the

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Reformation that they had, Erasmus the Roman Catholic, where you have written so much in opposition to the

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Roman Catholic Church and here you are siding with Erasmus on this issue? And Dave Hunt said, well,

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James, I really don't know much about the Reformers and what they taught or wrote. I like to just pick up a

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Bible like I've never read it before and draw my own conclusions from what's in the

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Word of God rather than having to rely on the words of man or something like that. And then two months later, when he was asked if he was qualified to be involved in a debate on Calvinism, he said,

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I think you'll find that I know more about John Calvin and what he taught than most Calvinists. Two months went by and he became the world's greatest expert.

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All it takes. He must have not slept for two straight months. That's impressive. Well, we can be rejoicing at least that now he is a

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Calvinist. There you go. Yeah, bonded to the will. I actually talk about quite a bit in the

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Love, Freedom, and Evil book because I think the arguments remain just as relevant today as they were 500 years ago.

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And one of them in particular is, you hear this idea articulated all the time in evangelical circles that it's not stated this way, but the core idea is that ought implies can.

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If I ought to believe in Jesus, then that implies my ability to believe in Jesus. It implies this autonomous willpower to keep all of God's commandments.

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If they're commanded, it doesn't make much sense to command the impossible. And that has a certain common sense appeal to it.

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Problem is, it's just blatantly unbiblical. And one of the things that Luther does so brilliantly in Bondage of the

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Will is he shows that biblical oughts, things you should do, don't imply ability.

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Ought doesn't imply can. For Luther, ought exposes cannot. Ought shows us our utter powerlessness.

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The commands, the laws of God show us our utter powerlessness through any kind of autonomous ability to measure up in our desperate, desperate need for a

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Savior and for radical grace. And it's insights like that that from 500 years ago still ring just as true and relevant today.

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Well, thanks, Tyler. And guess what? You have won a free copy of this beautiful book, Reflect, Becoming Yourself by Mirroring the

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Greatest Person in History. And I gotta really give a shout out to the Weaver Book Company because they did a really excellent job on this book and on the cover and everything.

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I mean, I know that what's inside a book is far more important and vital than the cover, but this is certainly a beautiful book that you have here.

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Oh, thank you very much. Every time I got writer's block, I would draw one of the faces of somebody

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I'm quoting, so you can see from the cover just how often I had writer's block. Yeah, and I love how the mirrored effect with the word reflect, where you see it's like a mirror in that metallic ink that they used, and also with the person of Christ in the center.

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Yeah, some of that's supposed to be biblical, how Paul says we behold through a mirror dimly, that when you look at Jesus, that's how you actually find your true self.

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That's the subtitle of the book, you become yourself by mirroring, reflecting Jesus. I had never heard that interpretation before, because I've always heard the glass darkly.

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Yeah, I've heard it both ways, but when you look at the cover, you can kind of see yourself, but only kind of, which is biblical, because now, as I argue in the last chapter of the book, to behold

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Christ is to become like Christ. So because our beholding is now limited, so is our becoming.

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We don't realize our full Christ -like selves until we're taken to glory.

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And so, yeah, that mirror dimly concept is something I was trying to capture artistically on the cover.

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Oh, so you designed the cover? Yeah, me and Frank Goodbroad also works with Jim Weaver over there, and he's just fantastic at what he does, so it was a team effort.

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So do you actually draw those faces? When you were saying that you were doodling and so on, are these the doodles?

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Yep, those are. Oh, wow. And on paper. Wow, yeah, I'm an art major myself, just to let you know.

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In fact, I did the cover for one of James White's books, Dangerous Airwaves, Harold Camping Refuted, and the

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Church of Christ Defended, or Christ's Church Defended. There you go, now I got the artist for my next book cover, perfect.

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I'm going to now read a question for you before I go to a break.

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It is a listener from Slovenia, and I'm going to not only read the question, but I'm going to email you his question, so you'll have it in front of you during the break, and you can mull it over, and then you can answer when we come back.

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Gotcha, sounds like a plan. Okay, Joe in Slovenia says, in thinking about the title of Brother Williams's book,

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I'm reminded of the enormous disparity between my personal holiness and God's complete picture of incarnate holiness, imminent holiness, coming to us in the person of Jesus.

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I'm struck with what R .C. Sproul calls the trauma of holiness, and what

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Sinclair Ferguson calls fully realized human holiness that are in Christ, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to his saints, to whom

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God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the

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Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory, from Colossians chapter 1, verses 26 through 27.

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How does reflecting on Christ develop and produce in us incarnate and imminent holiness?

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And I will email this to you, so you have it in front of you, and we're going to be going to a break right now, if anybody would like to join us, if anybody else would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Don't go away, we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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That's wrbc .us. I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

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Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to A Visit to the Pastor's Study every

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35:53

This is Chris Arns. And if you just tuned us in, our guest for the first hour, with about a half hour to go, is

35:59

Thaddeus J. Williams, Assistant Professor of Theology at Biola University in La Mirada, California.

36:06

We are discussing his book, Reflect, Becoming Yourself by Mirroring the

36:11

Greatest Person in History. The second hour of today's broadcast will feature

36:16

Pastor Mark Chansky of Harbor Reform Baptist Church of Holland, Michigan, and he is going to be discussing discipleship in your family.

36:26

So you want to make sure you stay tuned for the second hour as well. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question right now for Thaddeus J.

36:34

Williams, our email address is ChrisArnson at gmail .com. ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

36:40

And I read to you the question from Joan Slovenia before the break, and I'll read it for our audience's sake, since you have it in front of you right now, since I emailed it to you.

36:52

He says, in thinking about the title of Brother Williams' book, I'm reminded of the enormous disparity between my personal holiness and God's complete picture of incarnate holiness, imminent holiness, coming to us in the person of Jesus Christ.

37:05

I'm struck with what R .C. Sproul calls the trauma of holiness, and what Sinclair Ferguson calls the fully realized human holiness that are in Christ, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to the saints, to his saints, to whom

37:21

God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is

37:27

Christ in you, the hope of glory, from Colossians chapter 1 verses 26 through 27.

37:34

How does reflecting on Christ develop and produce in us his incarnate and imminent holiness?

37:42

That is Joan Slovenia. That is a fantastic question, Joan Slovenia. I think we can all relate to the enormous disparity between personal holiness and God's complete picture of incarnate holiness, as you say.

37:57

I am right there with you, brother. And I think a big clue comes from Paul's words to the

38:04

Corinthians in the second letter, chapter 3, when he says, the Lord is the Spirit, where the

38:09

Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. We all, with unveiled face beholding the glory of the

38:15

Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another, for this comes from the

38:21

Lord, who is the Spirit. And I think that final sentence there, Paul just hits it right on the head. It isn't us trying harder, it isn't legalism, it isn't self -help, it is from the

38:33

Lord who is the Spirit. That's the ultimate source, the third person, the Trinity conforming us to the image of Christ.

38:40

And I think that's where, you know, tying into the themes from earlier in our conversation, that's where Reformed theology has so much to say, that God has a sovereignty over our hearts, that the

38:50

Holy Spirit can conform us to the image of Christ. And one of the ways that happens is as, according to the text, as we behold

38:57

Christ. In the beholding of Christ, the transformation happens. And so there's a little section in the final chapter of the book where I say, you know, if we as Christians, if we just stare into the mirror to ooh and ah at our own image, we won't be transformed.

39:14

When a community becomes enamored with itself, its slick name brand, its celebrity poster boys, its swelling numbers, it's only a matter of time until that community turns dark and destructive.

39:24

Real transformation happens when people come together for the chief purpose of beholding the glory of the

39:30

Lord, in Paul's words. Not over -analyzing ourselves, not masterminding the success of our own programs, but in fixing our eyes on someone infinitely more interesting than ourselves.

39:40

Marveling together at Jesus as we meet Him in Scripture every week, that's how our communities take on supernatural gravitas and glow.

39:48

And this is what Richard Sibbes is getting at when he says that the beholding of Christ is a transforming sight.

39:55

It's a transforming beholding. A man cannot but look upon the love of God and of Christ in the gospel, but it will change him to be like God and Christ.

40:06

So there's a few thoughts I hope are helpful. Amen. Joe in Slovenia. Amen. Well, Joe in Slovenia, guess what?

40:12

You have also won a copy of the book, Reflect, Becoming Yourself by Mirroring the Greatest Person in History by Thaddeus J.

40:19

Williams. And that's compliments of our friends at Weaver Book Company and also compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for BibleBookService .com,

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CVBBS .com. We'll be shipping that out to you at no charge to either you or Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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And we thank Todd and Patty Jennings for their faithful support of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio through CVBBS .com.

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We'll always ship out all of our winners in our audience, their free Bibles, books, DVDs and CDs and other things that they win.

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So keep your eye open in the mail for a package with a shipping label that has a return address of CVBBS .com.

41:03

And by the way, Joe in Slovenia, thanks again for giving us an American address in Georgia where your daughter lives to have that shipped because that will be a lot less expensive to our friends at CVBBS .com

41:17

to ship to her. And we have Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who asks, putting the jokes about Joel Osteen aside, isn't it true that we who are

41:32

Calvinists can go overboard in our description of man and his worth?

41:38

We know that total depravity is a true teaching from the scriptures, but isn't it true that sometimes

41:45

Calvinists go overboard and depict man as if he is worthless and obviously

41:52

Jesus Christ would never have died on Calvary and received the wrath of his own father upon him if we were worth nothing?

42:02

Yeah, I think that's certainly a danger. I mean, Church history is full of pendulum swings, and Calvinists, just by virtue of their

42:11

Calvinism, aren't somehow immune to the pendulum swing. But I think the

42:16

Reformed tradition going back to Augustine was very clear, and I would argue going further back to Paul and further back to Jesus, that the image of God is effaced but not erased, is

42:29

Augustine's helpful way of putting it. The image of God in us has been thrashed, warped by sin, muddied by sin, but it's still very much there.

42:39

We have intrinsic worth, value, dignity, whether we're regenerate or not, by virtue of being image -bearers of the infinitely valuable

42:47

God. And that's certainly something that's clear in Scripture, and we need to keep in tension with a biblical doctrine of depravity.

42:57

And so I think a helpful way to kind of summarize the tension that emerges from the text of Scripture here is to think of ourselves as a muddy masterpiece, that God creates us in his image as his artwork.

43:09

When he creates humanity in his image, he says at the end of that creation day, very good, right?

43:16

Some translations have it exceedingly good now that there's image -bearers in the cosmos. And so we have to balance that exceedingly goodness with the reality of Genesis 3 in that fall.

43:28

So here's this masterpiece that God puts together, and we have just caked on mud onto that masterpiece through the power of sin.

43:37

And so if we just emphasize the mud, we aren't quite staying true to the text, and if we just become kind of Joel Osteen Pelagian, emphasize man's intrinsic goodness, then we're way off the mark, and we've completely lost the gospel at that point.

43:53

Well, thank you, Ronald, and you have also won a free copy of Reflect, Becoming Yourself by Mirroring the

43:58

Greatest Person in History by Thaddeus J. Williams. Thanks for the excellent question.

44:03

And if I could just throw in real quickly, there's one aspect in the chapter on grace where I deal with some of Osteen's theology.

44:12

And I say that if we're basically good, if we get the question of human nature wrong and think that we're basically good or neutral, if we downplay our depravity, if I'm good or basically good,

44:24

I don't need Jesus as a Savior to take me from depraved to saved. I only need

44:30

Him, if at all, as a life coach to move me from good to great. And that life coach Jesus is just a different Jesus.

44:38

You know, Paul warned the Corinthians about counterfeit Christ. That life coach Jesus who moves us from good to great rather than depraved to saved is just a false gospel.

44:47

My co -host, Reverend Buzz Taylor, has a comment or question. Do you think that—I think—you see,

44:55

Chris turns me down at will there. And there's big reasons for it, but go ahead, Buzz. You didn't like my question?

45:03

But, you know, I remember when I came to Christ, and of course, you know, I went through a lot of the same channels that a lot of people did.

45:11

You have to almost get saved, so you've got some people to go reformed. But when

45:17

I came to Christ, I knew that the issue was sin, that I was a sinner.

45:23

And, you know, when people witnessed to me, they started, you know, with the all of sin and fall short of the glory of God.

45:29

And I'm beginning to wonder today if people still believe that, because I see so little of it, and so much of the evangelistic witnessing and preaching that I see doesn't include any of that.

45:43

And what's all about—so much about relationship that I begin to wonder if anybody actually believes that it's sin that we're being saved from.

45:51

Yeah, and it leads to a very strange gospel, because now we've reduced the cross to Jesus died.

45:59

Why? Well, just to show how much God loves you. And so we've all heard the little catchphrase, we ask

46:05

God how much He loves us, and He stretches out His arms and says this much and dies. But if the cross is merely an expression of divine love, that's really confusing to the non -believer.

46:18

If I say, hey, Chris, brother, I love you, and I start pounding my head on my desk to prove it.

46:25

I believe you, man, like, stop hurting yourself, you're fine. Like, no, I really love you, and I grab a book off the shelf, you know,

46:32

I start bashing myself on the head with Calvin's Institutes. Hey, Williams isn't playing with the full deck here, what's going on?

46:41

So if we just reduce the gospel to—or the cross work of Christ to an expression of love, that's a strange gospel.

46:49

If there's justice, if God is a just God, and a

46:54

God who spends wrath justly against sin, now the cross comes into vision, into proper biblical sight, where it's the meeting point of God's supreme perfect justice and His supreme perfect love together.

47:09

You edit out the justice part because you don't want to have an uncomfortable conversation about the reality of sin, and you're left with a half gospel, which is no gospel at all.

47:17

I think it would be very interesting to do a survey and ask people today in churches, do you think men are basically good or basically evil, and then just see, you know, how they answer it.

47:27

Yeah, yeah. There is a survey in the book where I talk about the self -serving bias, that that conviction, that Pelagian conviction that we're basically good people, cuts really deep across all kinds of demographics in the culture and in the church world.

47:45

Mm -hmm. Yeah, so in other words, the priest in the classic movie

47:51

Boy's Town, he was wrong when he said there is no bad boy. It was like a pivotal point in the movie.

48:03

But in fact, you just recalled to my memory a scene from Monty Python and the

48:08

Holy Grail where the monks are marching in front of, yeah, and they have,

48:14

Ye shall dominate, and all that is right with you. That's just good theology right there.

48:27

We have Tony from New York City who says, I don't mean to make light of people that are going through hard trials in life, some of which are infinitely greater than anything

48:42

I've ever experienced. And of course, I don't mean to make light of people who have been disfigured or anything else that is tragic like that.

48:53

But do you think that many people who are in serious depression, who come to the point of hating themselves, that one of the reasons they hate themselves is because they think too much about themselves?

49:09

Absolutely, 100%. I interact with a lot of people on a regular basis who are battling crippling depression, anxiety, a whole slew of different shapes and forms of despair.

49:27

And I would say, I can't think of an exception to the example that you just gave to that phenomena of people who get so pulled into themselves.

49:40

They wake up and they're thinking about themselves. They're worried about themselves. Am I okay? Am I ever going to get better?

49:46

How do I get undepressed? How do I fix myself? That is a recipe for just a downward spiral into deeper despair.

49:53

I find that there's something to self -forgetfulness that comes from good theology.

50:01

Something Spurgeon says in one of his most famous sermons, when he says, you know, in thinking great thoughts about God, we emerge as from a couch of wrath.

50:12

There's this sense in which we're allowed to quit worrying about ourselves because we're so fixated on Jesus.

50:19

I think there's something really liberating about that, because we realize the whole universe doesn't, at the end of the day, revolve around us.

50:27

And I found in my own life a lot of relief from seasons of depression when

50:33

I get into good theology and dive into the Scriptures. It's something that C .S.

50:38

Lewis talks about, that I cite as one of the premises of the book. He makes this beautiful distinction between first and second things, and he says, if you make some second thing a first thing, you not only lose the real first thing, you lose the second thing, too.

50:54

If you make a first thing the first thing, oftentimes second and third and fourth things get thrown in as a bonus.

51:01

And so what I found is that if I make my own happiness, my own psychological togetherness, my own beating depression, or whatever it might be, the first thing,

51:12

I actually not only lose the real first thing, I miss out on Jesus, but I miss out on those second things and third things, too.

51:18

I miss out on my peace of mind. When I make the first thing the first thing, Jesus, oftentimes

51:23

I find myself happy without even trying. Oftentimes I find myself with peace of mind without even trying, because I've made the first thing the first thing.

51:33

Amen. And we have C .J. in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who says, although I agree with everything you're saying, don't we have to be very careful not to behave like Job's friends when we visit people who are going through severe depression?

51:52

We could take this advice you're giving upon ourselves primarily, but don't you think that we have to use great caution when delivering this kind of information to those who are in the depth of depression?

52:05

Oh, absolutely. And that's where we can really go wrong here. And one of the reasons I wrote

52:10

Reflect is I found early on in my theology days when

52:16

I was just discovering apologetics and just discovering guys like J .P. Moreland and then starting to read

52:21

James White and Jonathan Edwards and Walter Martin and all these great guys, that my intellectual life became coextensive with my entire spiritual life.

52:33

So that loving God with my mind was really the only thing going on, and I slowly but surely fell in love with my mind while being self -righteously convinced

52:43

I was loving God with my mind. And so it turned into a really big idol for me, and if you had met me in those years and come to me just heartbroken with a bad, a bleak medical diagnosis or something like that,

52:55

I would have just spouted off a bunch of theology at you. And that would have sounded like Job's friends.

53:02

That would have sounded like nails on a chalkboard. And I think a lot of us, particularly who might listen to a show like this, who care about cerebral things and deep theology, we can fall into that same trap.

53:14

And so I realized the lopsidedness of my own spiritual life that it was no longer Christ -centered, because Jesus wasn't merely intellectual.

53:23

He wasn't merely theologically brilliant. He had a large heart to match the size of his large head.

53:31

He was fully integrated. And so in the book Reflect, I go through reasoning like Jesus is something that'll happen the more we worship him, but the

53:39

E in Reflect stands for emote. We will also emote like him. We will have the kind of compassion that he had towards people who were suffering, which by the way is the most frequently used emotional term in the

53:51

New Testament to describe Jesus's interior life. Compassion, this gut -twisting pain when he sees other people in pain.

54:00

And so we'll reflect not just good theology to those who are suffering, but we'll reflect his compassion, and oftentimes that'll mean we'll just shut up and weep with those who weep.

54:11

We'll be afflicted in all their afflictions as God himself is at the end of Isaiah.

54:17

So I think we want to move towards a more well -rounded spirituality, and the more we reflect Jesus in his intellectual life, his emotional life, his relational life, his creative life, we'll get a lot better at helping the people around us who are in dire straits.

54:31

Well, believe it or not, Thaddeus, we are out of time and certainly want you back the next time for two hours on the program.

54:39

I love that. And I know that the Weaver Book Company website is weaverbookcompany .com.

54:46

Weaverbookcompany .com. Do you have any other contact information that you care to give? You can hop on to thaddeuswilliams .com,

54:56

T -H -A -D -D -E -U -S, Williams. There's more information on the book there.

55:01

You can read endorsements. There's a little free PDF download on there of the log that's included in the book to chart your own spiritual growth and know your reasoning like Jesus and emoting like him and being creative like him and so forth.

55:18

So that would be a good contact point. You could track me down on Facebook, Twitter, at Thaddeus Will.

55:25

And yeah, I'd love to connect more with you and your audience. And the website's thaddeuswilliams .com.

55:32

That's the one. Well, thank you so much, brother. And I definitely want to have you back and keep your eye open for an email from me somewhere around 6 .15

55:40

tonight. Absolutely. It's been such a joy connecting with you, Chris and Buzz. Good to meet you.

55:46

All righty. Well, God bless you and we'll talk to you soon, Thaddeus. And coming up in just a matter of moments,

55:55

God willing, we are going to be joined by our second guest who is Mark Chansky.

56:02

Mark Chansky is the pastor of Harbor Reform Baptist Church of Holland, Michigan, teacher of hermeneutics for the

56:08

Reform Baptist Seminary in Sacramento, California. And we are going to be discussing the theme, discipleship in your family.

56:15

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Pastor Mark Chansky, send me an email at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

56:23

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages. I am

56:32

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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God?

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And speaking of conferences, I've got a lot of conferences and special events to announce to you right now before we get to introduce our guest,

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Mark Chansky, for the second hour of the program, who will be discussing discipleship and your family.

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But I want to remind you that next week, the 2017

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Ian Hamilton, but he had to return to the U .K. due to feeling under the weather.

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Hopefully we'll be able to see Ian Hamilton this fall when he is supposed to be returning to the

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banneroftruth .org, and click on Events, and then click on U .S. Ministers Conference.

01:06:24

Then following that, June 22nd and 23rd, we have the

01:06:31

Foundations Conference, which is an event orchestrated by Sermon Audio, and that's going to be held in New York City on 350

01:06:39

West 26th Street in the Chelsea area of Manhattan, and they have a number of phenomenal speakers there as well, including

01:06:49

Dr. Stephen J. Lawson, Joel Beakey again, Phil Johnson, the Executive Director of John MacArthur's Ministry, grace to you,

01:06:57

Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio, and more. If you'd like to register for the

01:07:02

Foundations Conference, go to thefoundationsconference .com, thefoundationsconference .com.

01:07:09

Then following that, in August, from the 3rd through the 5th, at the Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine, my co -host

01:07:17

Reverend Buzz Taylor's Old Stomping Grounds, the Fellowship Conference New England is going to be held featuring speakers that include

01:07:26

Don Curran, who is the Eastern European Coordinator with HeartCry Missionary Society, the ministry founded by Paul Washer, my dear friend

01:07:37

Pastor Mac Tomlinson of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, Pastor Jesse Barrington of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas, who we've had on this program recently, and Pastor Nate Pickowitz, who is the pastor of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Iron Works, New Hampshire, and Pastor Nate Pickowitz is going to be our guest on Tuesday the 27th of June here on Iron, Sharp, and Zion to discuss revival in New England.

01:08:09

But if you'd like to register for the Fellowship Conference New England, August 3rd through the 5th in Portland, Maine, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com,

01:08:21

that's fellowshipconferencenewengland .com. And then, as I mentioned just a few minutes ago, in November from the 17th through the 18th in Quakertown, Pennsylvania, the

01:08:34

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having an event, and the Iron, Sharp, and Zion radio exhibitors booth will be there waiting for you to greet us.

01:08:45

That is going to be featuring such guests as the aforementioned

01:08:50

Ian Hamilton, God willing, Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, and Scott Oliphant of Westminster Theological Seminary.

01:08:59

The location is the Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quakertown, Pennsylvania.

01:09:05

If you would like to register for that, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org,

01:09:11

click on events, and then click on For Still Our Ancient Foe, which is the theme of the conference, and that is, of course, from the hymn,

01:09:20

A Mighty Fortress, written by Martin Luther. Then we have, coming up in January of next year, which will be here before you know it, we have the

01:09:30

G3 Conference 2018, where Iron, Sharp, and Zion radio will once again have an exhibitors booth,

01:09:36

God willing, and that's from January 18th through the 20th in Atlanta, Georgia, featuring

01:09:41

Paul Washer, Stephen Lawson, Votie Balcom, H .B. Charles Jr., Tim Challies, Josh Bice, Dr.

01:09:48

James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, Tom Askell of Founders Ministries, and many more, and we hope that you register today.

01:09:57

In fact, the price is going up within a matter of a few weeks, so if you want to get the discount, register now at G3conference .com,

01:10:09

G3conference .com, click on the 2018 G3 Conference, and click on Register, and I hope to see you there.

01:10:18

Last but not least, I urge you to please consider prayerfully donating to Iron, Sharp, and Zion radio.

01:10:26

We are facing urgent times right now, desperate times, if you will, and my advertisers have urged me to urge you to consider prayerfully donating to us.

01:10:41

Just go to Iron, Sharp, and Zion radio .com and click on Support, and there will be a mailing address where you can mail checks made payable to Iron, Sharp, and Zion radio, and if you want to advertise with us, please email me at chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:10:54

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put advertising in the subject line, whether you are a pastor, or a parachurch leader, or a business owner, or a professional person like a doctor, a lawyer, a dentist, a chiropractor, or perhaps you are having a special event that you want to advertise.

01:11:15

As long as what you are advertising is compatible with the theology expressed on Iron, Sharp, and Zion radio,

01:11:21

I would love to talk to you. Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:11:27

put advertising in the subject line, and keep in mind I never want anybody donating to Iron, Sharp, and Zion radio by siphoning money out of their giving to their local church.

01:11:37

Please never do that, and please if you are seriously struggling financially to the point where you are having a hard time providing for your own family,

01:11:46

I obviously do not want you to siphon money away from your own dinner table to provide for this program, but if the

01:11:53

Lord has blessed you above and beyond your ability to provide for your home and church,

01:11:59

I would love to receive a check of any amount made payable to Iron, Sharp, and Zion radio if indeed you love this program and want it to continue on the air.

01:12:07

But now we are returning to our program, and now we are opening up our discussion for the final hour with Pastor Mark Chansky, pastor of the

01:12:17

Harbor Reform Baptist Church of Holland, Michigan, teacher of hermeneutics for the Reform Baptist Seminary in Sacramento, California, and we are going to be discussing discipleship in your family, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron, Sharp, and Zion radio,

01:12:30

Pastor Mark Chansky. Chris, it's an honor to be here. Thanks again for having me aboard. It's always great to have you, and in studio with me is my co -host, the

01:12:38

Rev. Buzz Taylor. Hello, Pastor Mark. Hey, Buzz, how are you? Just great, thanks. Good. And if you could give our listeners who have never heard you before on this program, if you could give them a brief description of Harbor Reform Baptist Church of Holland, Michigan, and also the

01:12:54

Reform Baptist Seminary of Sacramento, California. Well, we planted Harbor Reform Baptist Church in 1994.

01:13:01

I was pastoring in the Reform Baptist Church of Grand Rapids. We had planted a number of churches in the

01:13:08

U .S. and in Canada, and the thought was, how about 45 minutes away in Holland? So we took about a dozen families that were driving from the far west

01:13:19

Michigan area, and we used them as a core to plant the church, and we've been out here for 23 years now.

01:13:26

The Lord has been gracious and merciful to us. We, at this time, have a congregation that would warmly welcome anybody in the area here, and we trust that we're seeking to preach the whole counsel of God, and we're desiring to live a life that is pleasing to the

01:13:47

Lord Jesus and outreaching for the kingdom. As far as Reform Baptist Seminary, it has been in Greenville, South Carolina, but just recently they moved the headquarters off to Sacramento, California, and I encourage any who would like to pursue a

01:14:03

Master of Divinity to connect with Reform Baptist Seminary. You can pursue that degree by way of the computer.

01:14:13

You don't have to move to California, so I think it's an academic pursuit worth exploring.

01:14:20

Great, and for further investigation for, first of all, the

01:14:25

Harbor Church in Holland, Michigan, go to harborchurchholland .org.

01:14:31

That's harborchurchholland .org, and also for the Reform Baptist Seminary, go to rbseminary .org.

01:14:39

That's rb, for Reform Baptist Seminary, dot org, rbseminary .org.

01:14:45

And the topic we are discussing, discipleship in your family, may take the wind out of people because they want to hear more about how you can have fun at home and enjoy relaxing with your family, and of course there's nothing wrong with that at all.

01:15:03

In fact, it would be a very odd family that didn't have fun and didn't enjoy relaxing and enjoying recreational activities, but some might look at this title discipleship in your family as something that is no -nonsense, dictatorial, killjoy, whatever you want to describe it.

01:15:26

Let's start off with your interpretation or your definition of discipleship.

01:15:32

Well, I think of discipleship, Matthew 28, where it speaks of our baptizing and making disciples of all nations.

01:15:42

I did a series recently here in Holland on the theme of discipleship, and we spoke about the

01:15:48

Great Commission and the cost and the certain methods. I did a sermon on one -to -one

01:15:55

Bible reading, how you can meet in a coffee shop and bring the gospel to people who are in your community, people who are in your workplace.

01:16:03

I also spoke about the model of women ministering to women from Titus 2, and it struck me how really a plan

01:16:11

A when it comes to the Great Commission is within our own families and the way that we are to teach our children.

01:16:20

Ephesians 6 -4, fathers are to teach their children in the fear of the

01:16:25

Lord and to raise them up in the instruction of the Lord. So it just took an hour of teaching on the whole theme of basically family devotions and the importance of that little baby popping out of the womb.

01:16:40

We have as parents a Great Commission. That's not to make them great athletes or great scholars or celebrities or business tycoons, because what does it profit a man if he gained the whole world and loses soul?

01:16:55

Most importantly, we ought to seek to make them disciples. And we already have a listener question from B .B.

01:17:05

in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and she says, I hope this is not too far off the topic, but I have been hearing words expressed recently about the age of accountability since you are talking about families.

01:17:21

I thought it might be appropriate. I know that Reform people seem to have disdain for that language in regard to the age of accountability, but if you are not referring to an exact age or if you're not referring to a point where a child needs to be saved where previously he was perfect, isn't it appropriate to use that wording, the age of accountability under certain circumstances when you're just speaking of a child's responsibility?

01:17:55

Well, I think biblically you have to ponder what the scriptures say. I realize there are some who think, as I just mentioned, the baby popping out of the womb, boy, cute and certainly innocent, and they're not accountable for their sin.

01:18:10

Well, that's not the case. Romans 5 tells us that in Adam we have all sinned, and death came to all men because all sinned.

01:18:21

And even in Psalm 51, David says, Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.

01:18:29

The point is that dear darling baby popping out of the womb is accountable for Adam's sin.

01:18:37

And then very quickly that little child affirms for himself

01:18:43

Adam's sin by his or her own personal sin. You can see how a little child doesn't need to be taught to lie, doesn't need to be taught to defy mom or dad.

01:18:56

The sad reality is that our little children come out of the womb fully accountable.

01:19:02

They're dead in Adam with original sin, and then their own personal sin also adds to their own debt before God.

01:19:10

So the point is we don't have a season where they're somehow in this stage of innocence where they're not accountable.

01:19:18

No, they're always accountable. That's why I think it's really important at the beginning with our children that we get about the business of this great commission and seeking to lead them to the promised land of heaven.

01:19:30

I think of how even in the south in the U .S. there were people who were enslaved, and the way that they would follow the

01:19:39

North Star that would lead them to the promised land of Canada. And they'd have to go by day, hedgerow by hedgerow, working their way.

01:19:47

And I think we as parents need to take that perspective, not necessarily hedgerow by hedgerow, but day by day.

01:19:55

Isaiah speaks of in 28 .13, line on line, precept on precept, a little here, a little there.

01:20:02

So when they are real little, when they're two and three years old, we begin to teach them a little bit about the gospel.

01:20:09

In fact, even J .C. Rowe has a great statement. He says this, we must not expect all things at once.

01:20:15

We must remember what children are and teach them as they are able to bear.

01:20:21

Their understandings are like narrow necked vessels, which we must pour in the wine of knowledge gradually, or much of it will be spilled out and lost.

01:20:33

And that's why I just like to argue for that day after day after day faithfulness and teaching them the word of God by way of some kind of family devotions or some kind of family altar.

01:20:48

That's the best avenue of discipleship, best strategy, I think. Now, just to perhaps clarify things, for instance, you and I are

01:21:01

Reformed Baptists, unlike my cohost, Reverend Buzz Taylor, who's Presbyterian. We do not baptize children.

01:21:09

In fact, we don't even, or I should say, let me backtrack. We do baptize children who are repentant believers, but we do not baptize very young children typically because of things like what

01:21:22

Paul has to say in 1 Corinthians 13 .11, where he says, when I was a child,

01:21:28

I used to speak like a child, think as a child, reason like a child. When I became a man, I did away with childish things.

01:21:35

So therefore, obviously, a child cannot reason things through and really understand what he's doing when it comes to something of the magnitude of baptism, at least in the

01:21:46

Baptist perspective of things. Now, would not the age of accountability be appropriate language if you're talking specifically about things like that and not salvation?

01:21:59

I would hate to use the term age of accountability. I think I'd rather use the phrase age of maturity.

01:22:09

I say that because I think a child aged two or three can be regenerate.

01:22:15

I mean, who knows, maybe Jeremiah, maybe John the Baptist were regenerate in the womb.

01:22:20

John 3, the wind blows where it will, the Lord can save in the womb if he so desires.

01:22:26

And I realize that there's the idea of Romans 10, the need of the gospel and the need to preach the gospel, but I can't put any boundaries on God whether a real little one can be saved.

01:22:39

That being said, I do think you're right, Chris, the idea of when I was a child, I thought as a child, spoke as a child, but I became an adult,

01:22:46

I put away childish things. I do think as pastors of churches, we need to make sure that the children understand that they've reached a level of maturity, that they comprehend what they are doing in being baptized, in becoming a member of a church.

01:23:01

Otherwise, I think there are churches that baptize little ones who are four, five, and six.

01:23:07

I think we do a great disservice to them. It's almost like paid a baptism, isn't it? Because the kids are so young, they don't really grasp, and sometimes the pushing them to the baptismal waters is just the parents desiring to have a sense of security about the destiny of these kids.

01:23:22

Yeah, there are Baptists who behave like paedobaptists in the sense that, especially in the

01:23:30

Bible Belt, when the kids turn 12 or 13, it's like automatically they sign them up for a baptism, whether the child is expressing or demonstrating any kind of heartfelt repentance or faith or bearing any fruit of any kind.

01:23:46

But I knew that my baby sprinkling co -host, Presbyterian co -host

01:23:52

Buzz Taylor... I'm not going to fix anybody's misrepresentation of Presbyterianism today, but I do want to mention to Pastor Mark that you also began to answer probably the next anticipated question that we'll be getting, and that is, what about children who die in infancy?

01:24:18

Because yes, I know of a pastor who assured the parents that that child went to hell, and of course, there's others who assure them that they went to heaven.

01:24:29

But if we believe that God is sovereign, and indeed he's the one, as you said, the wind blows where it will, the spirit works in any way we can truthfully say to parents of infants who have died that the

01:24:43

Lord is compassionate, and it's all in his hands. Yeah, I think that's the best cradle to lay a little child in, isn't it,

01:24:51

B .B.? I think that 2 Samuel chapter 12 does speak about the experience of David, and David saying,

01:25:00

I will go to him, he won't come to me. I don't think that issue determines that all children who die in infancy are necessarily saved.

01:25:07

I think the issue there is that the child has gone to Sheol, has gone to death, and it's a one -way turnstile.

01:25:12

You're not going to come back. It's one way. That being said, I think that the Bible leaves open the question regarding the eternal destiny of children.

01:25:21

I believe certainly the Lord is able to save little children who die in infancy.

01:25:27

But gentlemen, I would prefer to move on this theme of family devotions because I really think it's a burning practical issue.

01:25:36

And in fact, I know we could get caught into these labyrinthine... Well, I was trying to thwart that question off from anybody who's listening.

01:25:46

But we're going to be going to a break first because I don't want to interrupt you, and this will be our final break.

01:25:52

So if anybody would like to join us, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:25:58

and please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

01:26:03

USA. And by the way, Pastor Mark, I hope I didn't convey the idea that I believed that children were innocent and guiltless of sin before some kind of an age of accountability.

01:26:13

I was not making that argument myself at all. Chris, you're a great man of orthodoxy. I understand that. Well, we're going to our final break right now.

01:26:23

If you'd like to join us, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We will be right back after these to learn more about the

01:29:00

Thriving Difference. Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every

01:29:34

Saturday from 12 noon to 1 pm eastern time on WLIE radio, www .wlie540am

01:29:44

.com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions.

01:29:52

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study, because everyone needs a pastor.

01:30:58

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnson, and this is the final half hour of today's interview, and our guest for the final half hour with us is

01:31:07

Pastor Mark Chansky, and we are discussing discipleship in the family.

01:31:14

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question, your email address—our email address,

01:31:19

I should say, is chrisarnson at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com,

01:31:25

and please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

01:31:31

And Pastor Mark, I don't know if you're in front of a computer, but I emailed you a question from a listener because it's kind of lengthy, and he is addressing the subject at hand.

01:31:40

That's Ted from Tuscaloosa, Alabama. He asks, I've long been fascinated by discussions on family discipleship that touch on a husband's discipling of his wife, among other reasons because they never seem to take into account, let alone mention, the possibility that a wife may have a deeper understanding of the

01:32:01

Bible and theology than her husband. In such cases, is the man sinning by not being as knowledgeable as his wife?

01:32:11

Is the wife sinning by surpassing her husband's biblical or theological acumen? I imagine a wife saying to herself, you know,

01:32:19

I'd really like to read Hodge's three -volume systematic theology, but I think I need to slow down so that my husband can still disciple me, so I won't.

01:32:30

Well, that was Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, and you actually have written a book not only on manly dominion, but also on womanly dominion, so you would be obviously a great person to ask that question,

01:32:44

I think. Well, I think that's often the case that I say often my wife is smarter than I am, and praise

01:32:50

God for it. I think of how you look scripturally at the couple

01:32:56

Aquila and Priscilla, and often it is flipped in the other way.

01:33:01

It's Priscilla and Aquila, her name being first. In fact, it's interesting how in Acts chapter 18, it speaks of Priscilla and Aquila teaching

01:33:09

Apollos, who's the great man of God, more accurately, the things of God.

01:33:15

I think you, after a Sunday evening service there in Corinth, Priscilla and Aquila invited

01:33:22

Apollos to their home for some popcorn after the service, and there at the dinner table, I envision

01:33:27

Priscilla, in fact, Charles Spurgeon speaks about Priscilla was probably more the man than Aquila in that she carried the ball theologically and did most of the talking, instructing

01:33:40

Apollos the way of God a bit more accurately, and I think that's a good model for many of our women who are, frankly, very gifted and mighty in the

01:33:49

Scriptures, mightier than their husbands, and I believe that is a wonderful blessing that God would give to any man.

01:33:56

In fact, interesting, just before I got on the air here, I was looking for a couple of books that I could recommend for family devotions, and I asked

01:34:06

Marcy Filcik, who's a member of our church here at Harvard, and she is a...in fact, I said, thanks,

01:34:12

Priscilla, after she gave me the title. So I think that, yes, there are women mighty in the

01:34:18

Scripture, and men shouldn't be at all embarrassed by it. In fact, I even think of a comment that was made by Matthew Henry.

01:34:26

You know, Matthew Henry did his family devotions, and his Matthew Henry commentary is basically the lectures that he gave to his family day by day, week by week, month by month, and he even writes himself about his dad, and how his dad,

01:34:44

Philip Henry, did family devotions. And he speaks about this, he says, he recommended that the wife should sometimes be called upon to conduct family worship, especially in the husband's absence, and the quote was, it is comfortable if the moon rises when the sun sets.

01:35:02

Well, thanks, Ted, that was an excellent question, and keep listening to Iron Trap and Zion Radio and spreading the word about the program in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, and beyond.

01:35:11

Yeah, I mean, obviously, God has created each of us with our own unique attributes, our own unique mental capabilities, and so on, and there's nothing sinful if a woman's mind may have been designed by God to absorb more information and so on than her husband.

01:35:35

Am I right? I mean, it's not a sin that she may be excelling in her growth and knowledge of the

01:35:41

Lord, but at the same time, even if he was an unbeliever, he still has the role in the household as being the head of the household, according to God's design, right?

01:35:50

That's right, and I even think of the scripture call for us to be teaching and instructing our whole families.

01:35:58

Obviously, Ephesians 5 speaks of the husband washing the wife with the word, sanctifying her.

01:36:04

Also, you think of the life of Abraham and how, oh, you look at Genesis 12 and 13, whenever Abraham pitched his tent, he also built an altar, and I think that's the model for us.

01:36:19

Wherever our house is, wherever our table is, we should have an altar. Genesis 18 and 19 speaks of how

01:36:25

God says to Abraham, I've chosen him in order that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the

01:36:33

Lord by doing righteousness and justice, and so just like Abraham was the father of the faithful,

01:36:40

I think we're to follow in his footsteps. Deuteronomy 6, you know that passage where it speaks about,

01:36:46

I command you this day that these words be in your heart. Teach them diligently to your children.

01:36:52

Talk of them as you sit in the house, as you walk along the way, as you lie down, as you rise up, and so that's the model for us.

01:37:01

Even Job, Job 1 -4 speaks that he was concerned that his children had sinned, and so he would gather them together in the morning and offer a burnt offering.

01:37:11

I think for us, too, to gather together our families. Even Psalm 78 -3 speaks of how we must not conceal these things from our children, but we must tell them to the next generation that they might bring praise to the

01:37:26

Lord. So we have a solemn responsibility, like it says in Ephesians 6 -4. Fathers, bring up your children in the fear and instruction of the

01:37:35

Lord. It should be a habit, and if we say, well, yeah, I teach my kids whenever, I sadly think that if it's whenever, it's typically never that we teach our kids, our children.

01:37:49

So I'm calling for a commitment to habitual and even close to daily instruction of our kids in family devotion.

01:37:58

And Reverend Buzz Taylor, my co -host, has a question or comment. I would like you to comment on what is healthy discipleship as opposed to,

01:38:07

I think there's a tendency in many homes for a family altar to turn into a

01:38:13

Bible -bashing session. Like, here's what the Bible says, and here's how you disobey, and you know, it can really go downhill from there.

01:38:20

And I've seen in a number of Christian homes where when the children finally become of age, they end up leaving the church because it was all a bad experience.

01:38:30

Oh, yeah. You know, I know exactly what you mean. I can remember when I was a young man, and I visited someone's house, and after dinner, there was the family devotions, and the kids were sat down like little marines on the sofa.

01:38:46

And if one of them dared budge or squirm or squawk, there was a threat of discipline.

01:38:52

I made a mental note at that time. I was just, oh, maybe 19, 20 years old when I saw that.

01:38:57

A mental note that, God would be merciful to me and spare me from that. We have five kids that are age, let's see, 33 to 23, four boys and one girl, and I'm sure

01:39:09

I didn't do it perfectly. I'm sure I made all kinds of mistakes. I know I did, but I'll tell you what. For our family, some of the most enjoyable, laughing -to -tears times have been during those times of family devotions after dinner.

01:39:25

You look at, even the scriptures are like honey. That's how they're to be described.

01:39:32

It says in Proverbs 16, 21, the wise in heart will be called discerning, and sweetness of speech increases persuasiveness.

01:39:40

The heart of the wise teaches his mouth and adds persuasiveness to his lips. The Jewish mothers of old used to take the scriptures and pour honey all over them and give them to the kids.

01:39:52

And it was symbolic for, they wanted the kids to delight in and think the words of God to be delicious.

01:40:00

And I think likewise for us, if we have, let's say, devotions after dinner, then it ought to be a sweet dessert that our kids look forward to.

01:40:08

Hmm. Very good question, Buzz. And I'd like you to give our listeners some really basic nuts and bolts about family discipleship advice on how you could actually start a habit of it and a tradition that may even last generations.

01:40:27

Well, yeah, let me just say about the importance of the idea of the habit.

01:40:33

And like I said, my kids are 33 and 23 now. Tell you what, the window of opportunity from age zero to 18 when you send them off to college is so short.

01:40:45

The window is small. Time goes so quickly. And I would just urge our listeners to realize how important it is to get to work quickly and be consistent.

01:40:58

Think of a child born into a family, say, 20 years under your roof.

01:41:04

That translates into about, oh, maybe 7 ,300 days of potential pouring into their thirsty mind the waters of biblical instruction.

01:41:14

So let's liken the sole capacity of one child to, say, a backyard -sized swimming pool.

01:41:22

And if each day you poured a large pail of water into that pool by the end of 20 years, well, you got some real depth.

01:41:30

It would be nearly full to the brim. But on the other hand, if you forgot to pour on half the days, the pool would be hardly swimmable.

01:41:39

And if you neglected pouring on most of the days, the pool would only be wadeable.

01:41:45

I just think of how we want our kids to have spiritual depth and not be spiritually shallow.

01:41:51

And therefore, we ought to be doing the daily pouring in so that when they leave the house at age 20 -ish off to the college, where they're trying to unteach everything you've tried to teach them, they've got some depth.

01:42:04

They've got some substance to work with to fight off the error that they're eventually going to get. And can you give us some actual examples of specific things, other than perhaps reading the

01:42:17

Bible with your family, which is obviously a vital and important thing, but certain kinds of traditions and customs that will further enhance this kind of family life where you are discipling your family, but at the same time, you are not appearing as a dictator going through some drudgery that you are forcing your family to do that they are disliking every moment of.

01:42:43

Obviously, a regenerate person should not necessarily feel that way, but at the same time, even a regenerate person who is being instructed or discipled poorly can feel that way.

01:42:57

Yeah, I know what you mean. And I believe it's true that you can be a crack -whipping taskmaster when it comes to devotions, but I don't think discipline is a bad word,

01:43:09

Chris. I think of, oh, a couple of my kids were cross -country runners, and it was inevitable.

01:43:16

There's one school in the area here called North Point Christian School, and they had a coach who was really a quality coach, and he would discipline these guys at practice.

01:43:29

And he would make them run their sprints and make them run their miles in an annual basis.

01:43:35

I tell you what, when it came to meet day, North Point Christian School really stood out. Those kids were so thankful that they didn't have a coach that was easygoing, that a coach just let them do whatever they wanted to do.

01:43:49

And when they had those medals draped on them of winning the state championship or the regional championship, they were so thankful that their coach was a man of principle, a man of great encouragement.

01:44:00

So I think we can combine discipline with sweetness, and that's what

01:44:06

I would really, really strongly recommend. For us, it was a matter of, because our family could go to the

01:44:15

Four Winds so quickly, when we finished the meal, I would have seven Bibles there in a bookshelf right next to the table.

01:44:22

And I'd kind of tease, and I'd say, nobody move! Because, you know, once they start going off to their own bedroom to get their own

01:44:28

Bible and whatever, man, you can hardly get them back together again. So nobody moved, I would say.

01:44:34

I'd grab the Bible. I'd hand out the Bibles. And I think, even though I have a whole stack of helps for devotions here,

01:44:43

I think reading the Bible and just giving principles,

01:44:48

I mean, like J .C. Ryle's expository thoughts in the gospel. You read through a passage in the gospels, let's say the parable of the

01:44:56

Good Samaritan, and you draw four principles, one having to do with being kind to the neighbor, one having to do with sympathy, one having to do with willing to dig deep in your pockets to help.

01:45:08

I believe that the Bible is really the best curriculum that we can use to teach our kids.

01:45:15

And even for the kids to see Dad mining out these three or four nuggets from this passage and laying it out to them,

01:45:22

I think that's a great example for them and their own personal devotions early in the morning. Amen. We have

01:45:28

Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who asks, since Paul told

01:45:34

Timothy in 1 Timothy 3 -4 that an elder must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity, does this also include children, perhaps even teenagers, that are living on their own and no longer under the roof of the parents?

01:45:54

Do the parents have any authority over the children in that sense? Well, I think if someone has left out from under the roof of a man, the dynamic has changed completely.

01:46:10

I think there is a sober reality about what kind of responsibility parents have when children have...

01:46:19

I mean, you quoted the 1 Corinthians 13 passage about, when I was a child, I spoke as a child, I acted as a child. When I became an adult,

01:46:25

I put away childish things. I think we do need to understand that we cannot micromanage the lives of children who are beyond the boundaries of our homes.

01:46:35

And I think even the Titus 1 passage speaks of children who believe that the term is pistuo, pistos, and I think the issue there is children who are faithful.

01:46:48

I don't think it requires regeneration of a man who would be an elder. I don't think that we can take on that responsibility for children who've gone outside the home.

01:47:00

We do the best we can while they're in our homes. We do manage our own households well, but when they're beyond the orbit of the household, it's a different responsibility.

01:47:09

Let me even say this regarding the importance of our being fathers especially, taking the bull of our family by the horns.

01:47:20

You know, our families in this fast -paced society, we rise early and then typically we're off to the four winds.

01:47:27

One goes off to work, another to school, we go shopping, then there are lessons to take and athletic practices and games to play and dinners to make and news to read and phones to stare at and homework to be done and ball games to be watched and telephone calls to be made and relaxation to be enjoyed and bedtime to be met.

01:47:49

With all this kind of high intensity lifestyle, it's very easy for a man to chronically fail to grab the bull of his family by the horn sometime during the day and summon everybody together for a time of opening up the

01:48:05

Word of God and teaching them in the instruction of the Lord. So I think we as dads should find a time when we can do that, not being harsh, cruel taskmasters, but being winsome disciplers in our home.

01:48:21

Now you've somewhat answered this next question from Calvin in Michigan, but you answered it more from the perspective of the elder not being responsible for everything his children do outside of his own roof when they have moved on.

01:48:39

But Calvin in Michigan asks more from the positive perspective of, you spoke about the ages 1 through 18 years, young children.

01:48:49

What is your perspective on discipleship for your adult children in their 20s, 30s, and beyond? Well, I think there is a changing of the guard in that sense.

01:49:00

I think that even as one man sharpens another, I think there's the element of when the 1

01:49:09

Corinthians 13 takes place where the childish things are put away and you become an adult.

01:49:15

Frankly, for me, I believe it's wise for the father to change the relationship in many ways from parent to, in a sense, of peer.

01:49:30

Now, but that doesn't mean that I cease to be one who there's honor father and mother dimension, but frankly

01:49:36

I have found the great joy with my own son. These guys have become my friends. And boy,

01:49:43

I even have a son named Calvin and he is what, 31 years old now. I got Jared who's 33.

01:49:49

I got Austin who's 28 years old. These guys have become my friends.

01:49:55

And there are times when I'll ask them questions and they instruct me. And sometimes

01:50:01

I get back the things I have poured into them for 20 years, 20 plus years, and they end up sharpening me.

01:50:11

And I think that element of learning to treat your children as adults when they reach that age of maturity is a great blessing for parents.

01:50:22

I think to the contrary, sometimes we can try to micromanage our children when they're beyond the home.

01:50:28

And I think that's a very dangerous dynamic. And by the way, Calvin in Michigan, if you give me your full mailing address, you will receive, since you're a first -time questioner, you'll receive a free

01:50:41

New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the NASB who sponsored this program.

01:50:48

So thank you very much for submitting your question and give us your full mailing address and we'll have that shipped out to you.

01:50:53

Compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

01:50:59

cvbbs .com. And Ted again from Tuscaloosa, Alabama says he has a fun fact from today's show.

01:51:09

He says, both your guests use the word winsome on today's program.

01:51:15

So I guess he's speaking of you and Thaddeus Williams who was on before you. But basically

01:51:22

I want you now, since we are running out of time, I really want you to summarize uninterrupted what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before we run out of time and before they leave this program today.

01:51:36

Well, I suppose again the importance of these dear children and their souls are precious and it's very possible for us to, as I said early on, to focus on the things that aren't needful.

01:51:52

As a parent, again, we can want them to make their mark on the athletic field, in the academic arena.

01:51:59

We may want them to be popular. We might want them to be wealthy. But again, what does it profit us if they gain the whole world and they lose their souls?

01:52:10

There is the one thing needful that we should be focused on and that's what was said to Mary as opposed to Martha who was worried about so many other things.

01:52:22

Again, I think for us to focus on the souls of these dear children. And for us, again, we have found it to be very useful for training not only the children to prepare them for eternity that they might turn away from their sin and embrace the

01:52:40

Lord Jesus Christ, but man, teaching vital issues. And I think of all of the years and the things that we've gone over.

01:52:47

You think of the scripture that all scripture is God -breathed and profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, training, and righteousness that man of God may be adequately equipped for every good work.

01:52:58

Every good work. In our family devotions, we've talked about such issues as honesty and nighttime fears and depression and insecurity and peer pressure and companions and heaven and hell and money management and tithing and sibling strife and bullies and retaliation and sharing and heroism and sovereignty and free will and crude speech and dating and sexual purity and modest dress and hard work and laziness and self -control and sympathy for the underdog and pride and bad calls by referees and umpires, feminism, capital punishment, death, assurance of salvation.

01:53:46

The list goes on and on. And when we use the scriptures, I believe that we hit all these vital topics because our lives are filled with these issues that we might bring to the dinner table or things we might bring to the breakfast table if that's when you have your devotion.

01:54:05

So it's a glorious thing to use the scriptures to teach our children. And I have a few minutes left.

01:54:11

Would you mind, Chris, if I just went through some tools? Chris Definitely, definitely. I mean,

01:54:16

I definitely don't mind. David All right, very good. I think of this stack that I have in front of me.

01:54:22

Early on, I think to start with one of those picture Bibles. In fact, Dave Helm from Chicago Holy Trinity Church has put out,

01:54:33

I think it was put out by Crossway, the Big Picture Story Bible. It's excellent as it works through, for very young children, the scriptures moving from Genesis all the way through to Revelation.

01:54:48

And there's a study portion along with that. It's called the Big Picture Family Devotional Book.

01:54:54

Then on top of that, we have the book by Katherine Voss entitled

01:55:00

The Child Story Bible, excellent material. There's also one that we used when our kids were young.

01:55:08

It's called the Read and Grow Picture Bible. It's like a comic book type format where you have these different frames of pictures that work their way through a story.

01:55:19

I would sit on the carpet and my kids would sit on the sofa above my shoulder. They'd look over my shoulder and view these pictures and just talk through the narrative using visual pictures for these kids to be able to access.

01:55:32

There's another book. It's called the Action Bible. We've given this to kids at our

01:55:37

Bible club at a local public school. And those kids just love looking at those pictures and working through their eyes, seeing these images.

01:55:49

And then also available are, you've probably heard of the New City Catechism that's been put out recently by Tim Keller.

01:55:58

Yeah, they were giving it out at a conference I was just recently at in Indianapolis. Yeah, that's excellent, teaching even the catechism.

01:56:06

And there's that old catechism, it's the children's catechism, where it begins by saying, who is

01:56:12

God? And the second one would be, what did God make? And why did

01:56:18

God make you and all things? And how can you glorify God? As the Westminster condensed down. This is just great to teach our kids the catechism.

01:56:27

And it doesn't mean they have to memorize every word with perfection, but it gives them a theological framework.

01:56:33

I still remember when my little son Calvin was about, oh, four years old, and he had sunburn on his forearm, and he looked at me and says, he was peeling, and he said,

01:56:44

Dad, God doesn't peel. I said, what do you mean God doesn't peel? He says, oh, because the catechism says that God is a spirit and does not have a body like men.

01:56:52

So they're working through these things in their mind. Another tool that would be available is, you know, sometimes to be a little diverse and move away from the

01:57:03

Bible, teach them Pilgrim's Progress. There are a lot of tools. There's one called

01:57:08

Dangerous Journey. Maybe you've seen that, put out by Erdman. It's a very colorful picture of things like Apollyon, or Christian with a burden on his back, or crossing the river into the celestial city.

01:57:24

Teach them Pilgrim's Progress, and that gives great theology. Also, there's an interesting series put out by Joel Beeky, Religious Stories for the

01:57:35

Young and Old. In fact, one of the volumes is How God Used a Snowdrift, and it's the story of a family that was praying to God that they would be kept from an invading army, and they got up in the morning, and they couldn't open their front doors because their house had been buried by a snowdrift, and the army had marched by and never even saw or torched their house.

01:57:59

And the idea of God's providence, the way he answers prayers. I think, again, we can be diverse in the way that we approach it.

01:58:08

We can use the Word of God, reading directly from Old Testament narrative or New Testament narrative, and even eventually going through epistles, but also use other tools that are available.

01:58:18

There's another work that is available. In fact, my Priscilla gave it to me.

01:58:24

It's called Long Story Short, which is a number of planned -out devotionals written by Mary Makowski.

01:58:35

Just excellent material. Also, Kevin DeYoung put out a work called The Biggest Story, How the

01:58:41

Snake Crusher Brings Us Back to the Garden. Great material available, but again, it's so important that we commit ourselves to this and have a plan.

01:58:53

And like that cross -country coach, we're willing to train our kids so that they love running in the ways of righteousness, because on the last day, getting the medal draped around the neck, well done, good and faithful servant, what could be more glorious?

01:59:10

And we are out of time, brother. It flew by like a bullet. And you can get all those books he mentioned, that Mark Chansky mentioned, at cvbbs .com.

01:59:18

That's C -V for Cumberland Valley, B -B -S for BibleBookService .com. And don't forget about Harbor Church in Holland, Michigan.

01:59:26

You can go to HarborChurchHolland .org, HarborChurchHolland .org. And the

01:59:32

Reform Baptist Seminary, you can go to rbseminary .org, rbseminary .org.

01:59:39

Pastor Chansky, if you hold on the phone for a moment, I'd like to schedule another interview with you in the future. Well, I want to thank everybody who listened and especially those who wrote questions today, and I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater