Apologetics Methodologies

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line
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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence
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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.
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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the
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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is
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James white And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line. We will have the phones open today at 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1
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If you would like to join us looking at the rest of the debate material, we don't have all that much left to cover
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There is one issue. Oh, I didn't bring the book in with me Well, there was one issue that I wanted to touch on briefly in that area
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But then we can take your phone calls and often those phone calls get us off into all sorts of interesting areas.
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So Just don't wait to the last five minutes of the program to do it because then it's significantly less interesting
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That would be otherwise 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is the phone number.
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We have been listening to a debate On the resurrection is the resurrection?
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historically provable and We have been using this not so much as a source of criticism, but as a mechanism of comparison and contrast between various apologetic methodologies and Illustration of the fact that theology matters theology determines the kind of apologetics you use and obviously if you hold to a viewpoint that exalts the
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Autonomy of man, you are hardly going to be in a position consistently to challenge a worldview based upon the autonomy of man and a humanistic worldview a worldview that is focused upon the creature and in essence demands that We have the right and ability to put
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God on trial and the existence of God on trial rather than seeing ourselves as his creations and Seeing ourselves in light of his sovereign purposes
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That really is the issue and even in defining what history is
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What is history? How do you define history? And Can you come to history with atheistic presuppositions and thereby just simply dismiss all evidence?
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Of God's activity in history, or do you demand? That mankind see himself as the creature
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He is that he is in moral rebellion against God and that his view of history must take that into consideration
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These are some of the things we've been listening to as we've been listening to Bart Ehrman and Michael Icona debate this issue
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We were listening to Bart Ehrman in part of the give -and -take rebuttal periods and you'll hear exactly what
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I'm talking about Bart Ehrman's insistence that history is atheistic That history exists separately from the realm of Christian claims and remember
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Christianity makes specific historical claims Jesus Christ came at a particular time in a particular place in particular things
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This took place in history. It wasn't just some myth. This is one of the major differences
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Between the mythologies that are so popular that people refer to today The the
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Gnostic religions the mystery religions did not have a concern for history
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They did not have a concern for saying God has acted in truth
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Therefore here is his truth the idea of a body of dogma of truth
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For these religions. No, it's much more subjective. It's disconnected from history
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It doesn't have the same view of history that comes out of the Christian worldview Etc. Etc. So let's go back to listening to what
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Bart Ehrman was saying because it's gonna come out once again being illustrated very clearly Right here in the next comments.
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I too once believed that and I approached my study of the
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New Testament with the same belief the result of my scholarship
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Led me to renounce my former beliefs and I have to say
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I left the evangelical fold kicking and screaming I Did not go easily.
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I Wanted to hold on to my faith. I tried to hold on to my faith I did everything
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I could to hold on to my faith But I got to a point where I realized that the historical evidence did not support my faith.
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I Did not go with my personal bias Quite the contrary.
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I ended up changing my mind despite my bias So it won't do to say that I'm biased against the resurrection
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Because for the majority of my adult life I believed in the resurrection and wanted to believe in the resurrection and tried to believe in the resurrection
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Let me just and I know I played this last time. We're getting to the important part here But let me just comment briefly at that point
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Yes, he is biased against the resurrection and even during his evangelical days if he did not have a
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Serious Christian worldview that was thought through as a worldview
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Then his experience as a Christian is not evidence against his bias There are many
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Christians who are inconsistent. They think like the world while trying to hold on to Christian beliefs and it doesn't work and When they end up going to places like Princeton they end up becoming non -christians
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Because they've already been non -christians in their worldview they have not seen that the
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Lordship of Christ extends to the entirety of one's life and So just that statement is well, you know,
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I once believed these things But did you actually have and I don't see any evidence of this Did you actually have a
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Christian worldview where you even recognized for example that history itself? That the sciences themselves that all of these are under the
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Lordship of Christ That to adopt an atheistic perspective in these areas is to be an inconsistent
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Christian That really is the question that I would have to ask Mike on the other hand has wanted to believe in the resurrection and he does believe in the resurrection
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Which of us is taking a historical approach? I'm not disputing
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Mike's beliefs Now which of us is taking a historical approach notice for airmen history is atheistic
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History is outside of the realms of the claims of God. This is his presupposition This what is this is gonna come up in January.
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It has to come up in January because this is Fundamental to the entire presentation he's making so he says
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I'm not challenging your beliefs What he's saying is your beliefs are a historical and as long as you keep them in an
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A -historical area as long as you don't dare say this stuff really happened as long as you don't dare make your your faith relevant to your worldview and to therefore my existence
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Then you're fine If you want to just be one of the pagans who says you've got mythology, you know
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If you want to say Dionysus, you know was sewn into Zeus's thigh and then was born out of Zeus's thigh
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That's cool, too, no worries Leave it mythology. Just don't you dare say it actually happened now.
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He must know That what he's really saying is you must abandon your Christianity Because that's what he did the results of his scholarship and he thinks is if he thinks his scholarship is true
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Then isn't the result of that inevitably That if he abandoned
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Christianity because it didn't find to be true Then isn't that what anyone who actually loves the truth should do?
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Well, you would think so but for him to say I'm not challenging your beliefs this evening. Well, no, I'm sorry in reality
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You are or your beliefs the vast majority of you believe that Jesus was raised from the dead
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What I'm arguing is that that belief of yours is not founded on historical evidence
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The resurrection of Jesus if it happened Trance is I'm sorry.
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It goes beyond anything like historical evidence Historical evidence cannot establish the resurrection.
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It is a faith claim It is a claim that there is a God who is in control of this world who created this world
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Who sent his son into the world and raised his son from the dead? Those are theological statements.
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I'm not saying they're true or false. I'm saying they're not historical Hopefully now we're all starting to hear this
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Because if you're hearing this and you're understanding this and you're seeing a wait a minute He's he's trying to be politically correct here and say well,
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I'm not saying that what you believe is false But to make that statement what he's having to do is is to say
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Everything you believe is outside the realm of the verifiable. Anyway, everything you believe is outside the realm of truth claims.
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Anyhow Theological truth claims are irrelevant to historical truth claims But he knows the very nature of the
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Christian faith is such that he's denying those truth claims and so Sadly most people here.
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I can go. Well, that's really that's really neat that he you know, he's letting live and let live and In that wonderful and la la la la and reality.
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He is in fact doing exactly what he's saying. He's not doing Historical statements have to do with what historians can establish as probably having happened in the past Historians can be believing
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Christians. They can be Jews. They could be Muslims. They can be Buddhists They could be heathens.
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They can be Apostates they can be atheists. They could be agnostics. They could be all of the above but the evidence they adduce has to be
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Available to everybody that I've named or it is available to everyone that you've named but evidence is examined and weighed within a world view and When you are an apostate agnostic
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Use both terms there when you when you insist upon an atheistic view of history
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Then you are going to dismiss as evidence That which goes against your worldview and Therefore you're going to dismiss as evidence that material that would indicate to you that Jesus rose from the dead
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It's not historical evidence If it's historical evidence, it's based on presuppositions that everybody
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I've just named can agree on not people with only one particular theological point of view
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If the historical conclusion Requires a theological point of view then it's not a historical conclusion.
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It's a theological conclusion. Thank you So again, we see the the contrast
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Between between the two just you know If you've what you want to have your theology fine
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You go have your theology as long as you don't make your theology wander into my history
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There is a big wall between the two and The two shall not meet they cannot meet
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Etc. Etc. So that is his presentation then there were audience questions Some of the audience questions were interesting some of the audience questions quite honestly were not interesting at all
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Let me see if I can find Let me let's see which question this one here is and This one right here
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And let's try that again Dr. Ehrman one of the criteria given for evaluating
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Evidence were independent accounts Doesn't the fact that some of the accounts are difficult to reconcile and assume the
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Gospels are meant here Indicate that they were independent aren't these discrepancies similar to what wouldn't one would find between witnesses in a courtroom?
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Yeah, that's excellent question did everybody hear the question you're okay. Yeah, so okay, so I pointed out you need independent witnesses for for historical evidence
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And the question is since you have discrepancies between the accounts doesn't that show that they're independent witnesses, and so doesn't that in fact?
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Doesn't that increase the probability that you've got independent attestation of the resurrection and let me just stop right there just so you you know that is a good question and It will be interesting to hear airmen's response to this because there's so much of an assumption on the part of much of modern scholarship of an an overarching
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Process of editing or something like that that'll be interesting here What do you have to say and it's an excellent point?
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But the way you have to establish whether the Gospels are independent of one another is by a detailed
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Analysis of their similarities and their differences scholars have been doing this for hundreds of years
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And what scholars have pretty much shown? It's pretty standard. I assume
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Mike's going to agree with this mark and priority. No yes, yes, okay? now
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I Realize that there are many in the audience know exactly what he's referring to but there may be others and so let's all get up to speed
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Mark and priority is the current popular viewpoint in New Testament scholarship It has not always been in fact down through church history it was not but mark and priority is the idea that mark is the first of the
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Gospels written and Then and here's the key point because it's one thing to say it's first the Gospels written
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It is the next step to say it is the first the Gospels written and mark is Used directly his it he exists as a literary body that gospel exists the literary body and is
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Possessed in at least copy form by both Matthew and Luke So that Matthew and Luke are copying from mark
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Then they have access to some other source normally called the Q source Which has nothing to do with Star Trek?
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Which is a collection of Jesus's sayings basically? And the two of them make purposeful changes to mark sometimes contradicting mark and That becomes the foundation upon which both
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Matthew and Luke are written now The order of the Gospels we don't know what order they were written in it's a theory
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We don't have any manuscript evidence There's not really there's there's actually pretty decent internal evidence that at least the synoptics were written prior to destruction of the temple in Jerusalem obviously a naturalistic worldview would cause you to force it to be after destruction of the temple because of the prophecies of the destruction in Matthew 24 etc
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And so you just you don't believe there's such thing as prophecy then obviously that makes it post 70
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But there's good reason lots of good reason for putting them pre 70 and Very very early on There are some who believe everything in the
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New Testament was written before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 There are others who would put John at a much later date all within the first century, but later on after that destruction
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Etc etc, but the real key issue is this idea of literary dependence on the part of Matthew and Luke using mark and Editing mark as they go along in essence.
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This is The Majority viewpoint if you go to New Testament classes even in conservative seminaries
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The majority viewpoint is going to be mark and priority now. I do not hold to that form of mark and priority
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I don't know what order the Gospels are written in I don't have any particular problem with Theorizing that mark is the earliest it certainly seems to be written in that way but the idea that Both Matthew and Luke are just sitting there with mark going.
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Oh, let me see here. I don't like this I'm gonna take that out blah blah blah knowing knowing that the very same community
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That already possesses mark is gonna be reading them. I mean that's one thing you know I hear I you know
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I know it's so common that people don't even challenge Majority viewpoints well. I'm a
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Calvinist, so I'm used to it, but You know I always I sort of sat back even when
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I was at Fuller going so does anyone ever think about you know Exactly what this would mean and and and you know
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Do you consider the fact that if you're changing mark and the people you're gonna be giving yours to already have mark?
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They're gonna. Go excuse me. Hey dummy. What'd you doing? Yeah? I don't know those type of things cross my mind, but I Personally believe that it makes much more sense
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In light and I'm reading Still have it in here Yeah We're videotaping
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Why do we say videotape anymore? I haven't used videotape now know how long it's a it's a it's a it's an
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SD card We're digitizing. Yes, we're digitizing So I will show this
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To the the digicam you're digitizing or a digitized Vegetizing selling Jesus and the eyewitnesses the
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Gospels is eyewitness testimony by Richard Balcom see there it is I wrote the book review of this one for the
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CRA Journal all that did was Confirm many conclusions.
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I had come to in my own thinking and that is That what you have access to What what
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Matthew and Luke would have access to would be the same? Tradition and I'm not using that term the
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Roman Catholic sense, but the same oral preaching of the church this is preaching yet you still have eyewitnesses in the church and So that preaching is what is prevalent throughout the churches they would travel from church to church
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We know that this happened historically and so changes from that would sort of stand out especially amongst those people who had been believers for a long period of time and It would seem to me that there would be an entire body of tradition that would be available
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To Matthew and Luke and that this is what they're referring to not to some slavish dependence upon mark himself the similarities do the fact that all three of them are
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Deriving their material from that same single body of Christian proclamation that had been going on with eyewitnesses for However long it had been between the time the crucifixion the writing of the first Gospels.
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Obviously, there are many who wish to push that Date as far back as possible to minimize
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Its connection to the actual disciples and apostles themselves and that again is one of the divides that you have between Conservatives and liberals at that point.
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So that's what he's talking about when he's talking about Marken priority. I mean what most what most scholars think is that Mark was the first gospel written and that Matthew and Luke used
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Mark as a source so whenever they change mark whenever they're different from markets because one of them has changed it for some some
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Reason of their own and this is significant because it can show you that if Matthew is different from market in any particular
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It means Matthew is intentionally change something in mark that can show you that can show you
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Matthew's overarching Intentions or Luke and so forth. You see what that perspective does
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Is it it in essence since most of them reject John is having any meaningful historical information at all?
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Contained within it then what you have is only one witness You only have one literary witness mark is being used by Matthew and Luke So Matthew and Luke are not independent witnesses in and of themselves.
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So you have one redacted witness. That's all you've got left See, that's that's that's one of the apologetic
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Issues that comes up when you utilize that that theory and so it's interesting that for example in in In some of the later
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Gospels It's not the women who discover the tomb the women go off and the men discover the tomb
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And the men then serve as the witnesses Why is that because the point Mike is pointing out that in fact people were people were loath to attribute
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Testimony value to to what women had to say So I don't think the mere fact that they're different shows their independent accounts
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What it shows is some accounts are being changed in the process of the transmission Okay, Mike.
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Do you have any response? Because my I'm having trouble with my voice. I think I'll save it for Something in which we're gonna have greater disagreement on Okay for Michael Icona Are there continuing claims of massage see just at that point that's where I would you know again
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I feel very sorry for Mike and his voice that day. That's pretty rough But you see that's what that's what's got to be challenged right there
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And and that's again this particular spectrum of apologetics is so closely wedded to that kind of Viewpoint in regards to oh yeah sure you know mark was just being
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Slavishly copied and changed by Matthew and Luke and stuff like that That they really don't They have to go yeah, okay, and that's the only relevant deal with airmen
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That's relevant dealing with with Islamic apologetics, and it's claims concerning You know
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Pauline corruption all the rest of stuff again. You know what what can we say? Theology matters let me go a little bit down here because we've got a phone call to get to and Let me try to get to that last question
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Never mind Question for Mike and then we'll throw one out for both response
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Both participants to respond to Mike is there any historical evidence? independent of the
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Bible for the resurrection Well it depends you know
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I you know at this point my first response is may I please point out to that the New Testament records are historical evidence
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That they that their testimony as historical Witnesses cannot simply be dismissed, but of course if you haven't defended that up to this point
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It's a little bit late when you're this is 156 out of two minutes and two hours and two minutes
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So you're down the last six seven minutes of the of the debate? So it's a little late to be getting to that, but I think we could look at something like Tacitus Who in his annals book 15 section 44 talks about how after Pilate had crucified
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Jesus that Christianity was checked for the moment, and then it broke out again in Judea Where the evil mischievous superstition started?
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I think this just shows a consistency with what we find in the New Testament in the
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Gospels and Acts same thing with Josephus In a disputed passage, but most
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Josephus scholars agree that Josephus mentions Jesus in that passage that he was crucified by Pilate and that his disciples continued to follow him
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So in a strict sense I'd say No, we have to look at the New Testament as ancient documents here
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And that we can I could look at the Quran, and I don't believe it's divinely inspired But I still can
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As a historian look at different things and conclude different things Such as there's one surah that has
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Jesus and God talking and God says did you tell them you're my son? Or did you tell them that you
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Mary and me are gods and Jesus says no far be it from me You know I never said that I've only said
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I'm your servant I don't believe that that conversation happened, but it tells me that Muslims and Christians were having this debate on who was
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Jesus is he divine or just a man and Same thing with the New Testament the case
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I've given this evening by the way that's surah 5 1 16 through 117 if you're looking for It wouldn't assume at all divine inspiration.
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We could look at it simply as an ancient doc compilation of 27 different sources ancient sources and Make our conclusions based on that And again, that's that's where we we just have to differ is
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This idea that well we can we can we can divorce The New Testament documents from what they say about themselves and simply we're gonna step on to this neutral ground with you
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This is a theistic history theory of yours And we'll do battle with you on that ground and and I say to you it doesn't work
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You you can't get to the Christian God from that perspective again It goes back to the beginning presuppositions that you that you have to be consistent at that point
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Yeah, yeah, it is a really good question the people are surprised to know
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How little information we have about Jesus outside of Christian sources from antiquity you would think you'd have you know?
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Birth records or accounts of the trial or his enemies talking about him or Rome Why would you think any of that that that amazes me?
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I mean of all the people who've lived on earth How many of them do we have that kind of serious information about to live that time almost none?
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almost zero So why especially in Palestine at that time in history?
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Would you expect that I? Haven't figured that part out an official saying something in fact nobody says anything about him during the entire first century except for Josephus The Jewish historian has two references to him
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Within a hundred within a hundred years of Jesus death. He's only mentioned four times in any non
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Christian source in Tacitus the reference Mike was giving in plenty the younger three years earlier and Possibly in Suetonius the
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Roman historian and in Josephus there just sees those two references, so there's five references to Jesus these references tell us almost nothing about who
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Jesus was or what he did or what he said and Strikingly none of them says anything about Jesus being raised from the dead
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My I had something there. I agree with him on that, but I don't think it's it's as bad as That might lead us to believe
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The Roman Emperor at the time of Jesus ministry for him. We have just as many non -christian sources
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As many non -christian sources who mentioned him within 150 years of his death as we have of Jesus Non -christian sources who mentions him within 150 years of his death and Caesar Augustus the most prominent
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Emperor of Rome We only have four primary sources that mentioned him and most of these are more than a hundred years after his death
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One last question Okay, here's the last question. This is how the debate ends.
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I'll just let the whole thing Play out the response from both sides. I'll read it to each of you
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Your response both John and Mark are correct about the Passover meal because the
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Messiah Honored the Passover of Yahweh as written in Leviticus 23 on the 14th of a beep
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Whereas the rabbinical Jews celebrate the Passover on the 15th of a beep.
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Do you agree? Yeah, Mike do you agree
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I Feel like I'm in my PhD exam again, I don't know
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Okay, so let me tell you what what what that meant The problem the problem is
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Mark explicitly indicates that Jesus celebrated the Passover meal John explicitly indicates that he was crucified the day before the
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Passover meal And so the question is saying that there are different groups of Jews Celebrated the
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Passover meal on two different days. So both Mark and John could be right On the surface that sounds plausible
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But the reality is Jews in Jerusalem in the first century did not celebrate
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Passover on two different days They celebrated on one day because there's only one day that the lambs were killed in the temple on the day of preparation for Passover John says that's the day that Jesus was killed on the day of preparation
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Mark says he was killed the next day. And so there's an inconsistency but I do
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I do man Maybe I should type it in and you can see it on the screen.
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I I do hold to biblical inerrancy. However, I have to admit I don't know the answer to this one
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Okay All right, let's give both of these gentlemen Well, I would direct you to the rather full discussion of that very issue
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Provided by dr. A .T. Robertson and his army of the Gospels. This was a textbook that I used in Bible College and he points out he goes through each one of the specific texts and John and Demonstrates that the consistent usage of language in John is consistent with us synoptics that John is not
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As was just claimed specifically stating that Jesus is crucified before the
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Passover But if you recognize the Passover is not just one day, but is an entire celebration
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That there is no inconsistency and again John is writing if if their theory is correct and John's last one to write
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Wouldn't he know what Matthew Mark and Luke said and why in the world would he specifically make his different?
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Well for literary purposes, come on It's it's it's frustrating at that point, but anyway again
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Only did this series for the intention of helping people to see that You know, sometimes the apologetic realm can be somewhat confusing and One of the reasons is because we have different Methodologies we're starting from different starting places and where you start is going to determine where you end
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We're gonna take a break. Take your phone calls 877 -753 -3341. We'll be right back.
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Hello everyone. This is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program
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The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every
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Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha and Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses
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Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?
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We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well
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Support Alpha and Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.
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Thank you Public crimes the criminal mishandling of God's Word may be
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And welcome back to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning the phone lines are open at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one there's been all sorts of stuff going on out there and Some of which
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I don't even want to begin talking Yeah There's there's definitely one topic in the blogosphere right now.
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We ain't touching with a 10 -foot pole I like having my website right where it is Ain't going there you
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But there has been some wild stuff by the way I am I Am about a third of the way through the shack for those who have been wondering and I'm only reading it when
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I have opportunity I'm not putting anything else aside just to get to that But I have been working on it because I think there there does need to be some commentary offer that I wouldn't be the first one
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Obviously, I'm a little slow getting to it. I think Tim Challis was on it in January but slow getting there, but I think maybe
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I will Do something on that have some commentary on that sometime in in the future all right?
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let's go to our our single phone caller at the moment unfortunately and Like I said eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number.
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Let's talk with Arlen. Hi Arlen Hello, how are you sir? I'm sorry.
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Yes, so far the only one Feel so honored Okay, well just so that you know who
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I am. I'm Atlanteans from the blog the apparently. I'm a mole witness I'm not sure what that means exactly but Anyway, so okay.
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I if you don't remember me then Then sorry then I'll try to forget this awkward moment atlantean atlanteans from the blog from the
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The Chat room thing. Oh the chat channel, okay, all right.
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Yeah All right. Yeah, you were last seen quitting the channel six weeks three days and 13 hours and 50 minutes ago actually
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Hmm, that's strangely creepy to know that yeah Would you would you like to know what you were wearing when you left?
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I Have been on a mission trip actually, that's Basically, I've been anyway.
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My question is this and I'll phrase it in the sense of I would like a critique for it.
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I Believe that the book that the Gospels were written before 70
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AD all four of them. I think that's relatively I don't see that. There's a really strong argument. Otherwise and My point going would go essentially that Luke Would have to have been written before Paul died because acts ends before Paul died and there's no reason and so abruptly
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There's no apparent reason why it would I'm sure there's a lot more to that and I think that your idea about It being written for his trial makes a lot of sense.
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Well, that's not my idea But I think I think it makes sense. So yeah, but and from there
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I would Back go back to how the early fathers generally say that Matthew was written first, etc, etc
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I just want to know What you think especially in light of people who would read bar airmen?
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What a strong what some of the strongest points that I could pull not or point to would be that would?
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Reinforce the early dates. Well, you know that that's that is a good a good question
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I for the vast majority of people sadly Just taking the time that it took you to explain the relationship of Luke and acts and the death of Paul Sadly in my experience extends beyond the attention span of most the people we're talking to I mean
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I I think it's terrible, but that's just the way it is and You'd almost have to make sure that you're in I think part of having success in this is phrasing your presentation in such a way as you can get past that a historical
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I don't really want to think much more about this type thing And so if you can in some way shape or form communicate the fact that you know, it's interesting you said that this means a lot to me and I've done some thinking on this and have you ever considered this sometimes just that little bit of Introduction the beginning can sort of extend the extent of the the attention span out a little bit.
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You can't assume That that they would even know who Paul was I mean you just mentioned
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Paul you and I know Paul But it's really tricky to be honest with you to try to make sure that when you are
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Making even a fairly simple case that you're giving enough background information. They have some idea why what you're saying is relevant for example even mentioning that that we can be pretty confident about the the the timing of Paul's death and therefore have some sort of a
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You know benchmark there that we can that we can utilize I'm sorry
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It's gonna just How do we know that when Paul died? well again
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We don't know exactly when Paul died. However the fact that Acts ends where it where it ends and when we take into consideration the material found the pastorals
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Which again someone like airmen is going to dismiss anyways, just just for on other on other grounds but when we when we take those things in consideration and also understand when
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Various emperors reigned and when the Neronian persecution was and things like that We we can have great confidence that we're talking about the early part of the seventh decade or the early 60s
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As the as the farthest end point because if he was still around there'd be some evidence that he was
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I mean the guy He'd like to write letters, but And we can utilize his letters to establish
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Certain things or certain people are mentioned that that we have been able to identify for example in Corinth the
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Crispus as I recall Is mentioned there and and we know about when that person was there things like that, but you asked for the strongest arguments.
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I Appreciate what Dan Wallace and his co -authors said in their work on Jesus one of the arguments that they presented was that the the
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Olivet discourse In the various forms in which it is recorded Matthew's being the fullest especially because he's got a primarily
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Jewish audience, but Mark and Luke also have Portions of that record for us as well in every one of them
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There is material That would be quote -unquote embarrassing in other words
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Because not everything is fulfilled as yet if you were looking back
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Writing about the fall of Jerusalem. Why would you put things into the narrative that have not yet happened?
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That would be potentially embarrassing for you and have to make you answer the question well, is this man a true prophet because these things have not yet taken place and so if if we are
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Wanting to get into the boat that says well what you've really got going on Here are really shady people and they're wanting to to come up with some
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You know religious authority other over other folks are wanting to write some stuff They're really pawning this stuff off and they're making it all up as they're going along which would mean they don't they don't have to Be in cahoots with one another and all the rest of stuff if you really want to go there
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Then there's all sorts of of reasons to believe that they went about it all wrong
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I mean how they ever made this thing work is is pretty amazing but the fact of matter is the the prophecies concerning the destruction of Jerusalem are only quote -unquote
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Partially fulfilled in the actual destruction of Jerusalem because it goes beyond the destruction of Jerusalem that's where the hyper preterists jump off the boat, but it goes beyond that and That I mean probably the single most common claim that I hear from liberals
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Is that well of course Paul expected Jesus to return at any moment and he was wrong the idea of the imminence of the return for every generation is
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Embarrassing from an apologetic perspective Unless of course you have sound theology and can explain why that's relevant
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But again for people who are just making this up to get themselves power
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The idea they'd be looking down the centuries to see what effects this would have down the centuries is just a little bit of silly
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So we lost you there all of a sudden sounded like was was he is he still there? I don't know guys still there
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Oh, there you are, okay. Oh, yes something something was going on in the background sound like your tire went flat or something
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My question would then be if you are a Molinist would God know you were going to get hit or not
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That is the real But hey
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Okay, one thing that um that is always about always since I've only thought of it for the past few months anyway,
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I find one huge flaw in the whole Q document and mark and priority concept that Seems to make the whole theory fall flat.
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It's based on Occam's razor and I want your opinion on it the idea that Mark Matthew Luke and John knew each other
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Oh actually interacted Well in what sense I mean, we don't know the exact relationship
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You know between them. We know there was traveling. I don't think there's any reason to question that they would have had
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You know some contact with one another but again Could could one have written and died long before another rights?
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We would assume that that John's writing and in Asia Minor probably near Ephesus somewhere in that direction
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Where were the others written? We don't know you know what concerns me about the almost slavish adoption of of mark and priority connected with literary dependence is the fact that People don't question it and any other theory just is sort of dismissed right off right off the top
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Because well, you know you're going against the majority viewpoint at that point the problem Yeah, it creates all sorts of problems, and there should be much more freedom to say however in fact
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I don't even remember where I was reading this now, but sometime within the past year I was sent a
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URL to a computer study a literary computer study Where they used an algorithm that had been developed outside of New Testament studies as I recall for indicating dependence
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It sounds like the mothership's beaming you up now too, but they they they they applied it to Matthew Mark and Luke and As a result the computer said
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Luke was the first one that was written and Mark and Matthew were dependent on it, so That's good, yeah, you know so You know
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I think we need to you know it's it's interesting to theorize about such things
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But when those theories become the very lens through which then exegesis takes place that is where I start having a major problem
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Yeah, that makes sense Okay, well, thank you very much. I hope to see you in channel.
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All right. Thanks a lot. God bless Take care I'm sorry
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I'm sorry I You can't talk to me So I don't know what you're going to say that we want to make sure that we understand that Algo says that he was wearing
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A blue hoodie when he left channel. Oh Okay When he listens to this in the playback yes, and okay all right,
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I appreciate that well any Anyhow 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is the phone number.
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I've noticed sometimes. Well. I can't predict it, but sometimes when I do a series
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It really kills the phone calls for the for the rest of the program or something like that because they're just expecting that I'm I'm just gonna you know do my thing, and I'm gonna continue on and and blah blah blah blah, and I that that's not what
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I was doing, but That's okay, I understand the morning program is less of a though sometimes
47:56
You never know you cannot predict. What's gonna happen with those phones, so what we'll do We've got 12 minutes left, and I have a clip and it's one of my favorite kinds of clips
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Because what it does is allow us to listen to the poor Roman Catholic apologist stuck with modern
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Vatican to theology And trying to make Vatican to fit with historical
48:19
Roman Catholic teaching this is Tim Staples our man Tim The the man of Catholic answers pedigree formerly of st.
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Joseph Catholic communications If we had a set if we had a sound of a phone hanging up that would sound really familiar to you rich Last communication we have a st.
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Joseph's was when the head of that organization hung up on you as I recall After the second debate with Tim Staples, but anyway, that's neither here nor there
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Don't even know that he's still involved with it for that matter, but anyway One of the reasons
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I like this particular Clip is because it's talking about two of my favorite subjects all at the same time you have a
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Roman Catholic apologist Talking about Islam yes Yes, indeed boys and girls children all across the world
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How does the Catholic apologist? Explain what Vatican to said and post Vatican to documents that Specifically talk about the fact that we and Muslims adore the same
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God the in fact That reminds me two things
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I'll never get to two things one hour after the dividing line we will
49:30
David would and Bassam Zawadi will be back on iron sharpens iron, so you need to be listening to that very interesting program yesterday
49:36
I heard that and Then one other thing I mentioned a number of weeks ago, and I put on the blog
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Got to get to got to get to London Have all sorts of wonderful opportunities there two debates which in fact
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David would mentioned on the program yesterday In London, but got to get there and we priced out tickets
49:58
And I about fainted Let's just say that fuel costs have risen just a little bit and the exchange rate is really bad
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So I just throw that out there again to the to the people of God. We've got to get the London and it ain't gonna be cheap
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So just thought yeah, yeah, Rich is in the other room good. Hey, yeah, I think they got the thumb out
50:20
Well, we'll hit the hitchhike across the United States, and that's how we'll get to London that ain't gonna work to it
50:25
So we thought we would we would mention that in passing Wow, so I'm not gonna, but I've already already mentioned that I'm gonna get to Tim Staples well
50:34
Maybe we'll well, let's go ahead and take the call and then maybe we'll still get to some of Tim Staples Maybe won't we'll find out let's let's talk with Jason.
50:41
Hey, Jason Hey, how you doing? Pretty good. Pretty good. Thanks for taking my call.
50:47
Yes, sir I'm I'm real new to reform theology. I'm uh,
50:52
I guess you'd call me recovering dissensationalist, but What I'm my question is it's about Atonement and I've read in the pot of freedom and I've read it elsewhere in Hodge and some other places that The argument is like that.
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Jesus death is what actually saves you. It didn't provide a provision for salvation
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It's what actually saved So am I correct in that? Well in the sense that the atonement that is
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Substitutionary and therefore it is personal that is it is not just some amorphous mass of people
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Who are joined to Christ or it is not just some Pool of merit or pool of grace that is created by his death
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These specific people of God were united with Jesus Christ in his death upon Calvary's tree
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And this is one of the problems I have with you know Open theism and things like that because if God doesn't know the future then and if God doesn't have a specific people
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He's uniting to Christ the personal aspect of the atonement my union with Christ Paul said that he had been united with Christ and Christ died for him.
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His death was he died with Christ Therefore he's raised Christ. Well, so that personal element of the atonement means that the point where the wrath of God is
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Poured out upon my sin is the cross now. Let me anticipate for a moment
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What most people have a problem with that is but wait a minute prior to my justification prior to my regeneration
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I'm described as a child of wrath as the rest. So how can that be if I was actually saved?
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2 ,000 years ago and of course the issue is the difference between the eternal perspective and that of a temporal perspective
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We know that it's God's purpose to use specific means to bring us into the
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Christian life There's a point in time where through the proclamation of the gospel the work of the Holy Spirit of God We hear the gospel the
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Holy Spirit causes us to be quickened to be alive and we are regenerated We have faith and we're justified so on and so forth up to that point in time that Application of what is absolutely certain because we reunited with him, but you see that's in that's in the past We weren't there
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It has to be applied to us in this life in God's providence at the time the means that he chooses to do so And so I think that's how if that's where you're going
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That's and if not, then that is gave you a little extra information No, that is probably where I'm going my my issue was
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I was talking to you know some other people because I want to tell you your ministry is really helpful because Around here.
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I live about an hour from Memphis And when you just say the word Calvinism, you can hear the ominous music in the background
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I mean, there's no there's no in front if it wasn't for if it wasn't for the the
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YouTube videos and the Post on the blog. I mean, it's just extremely helpful
53:59
But what I was what I was talking to this person about was that it wasn't just a provision
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He didn't die to make us favorable, right? But right like that's what you said in the pot of freedom But but then the question that they raised to me that I couldn't answer was that okay
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Let's say that I am one of the elect. I'm as of yet unregenerate Let's say it's God's the term decree that I'd be saved three weeks from now
54:22
Isn't it just a provision for me now because I'm unregenerate like at this moment again
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Yeah, that that was where I was going because what that is confusing How is it a provision now since you're unregenerate
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God in his the same sovereign decree that has marked you out from eternity found
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Ephesians chapter 1 that's Not because of anything in you because solely of God's purpose and grace and the kind intention of his own goodwill
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That very same sovereignty has also determined the very point in time where Undeserving he is going to break into the life of rebel sinner.
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He is going to bring about spiritual regeneration Open blind eyes Lazarus comes forth from the grave.
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He's gonna change you from being a God hater into a God lover and At that point in time is when you are justified you're forgiven you're regenerated
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I mean you could make that argument about all these things, but what makes it possible for God to regenerate a sinner to give him spiritual life to adopt him
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It's all based upon the fact that his wrath has been fulfilled Because of the perfect work of Christ in his place
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And so the the point I would I would respond to them by saying you're confusing the fact that I wasn't alive at the time of the cross
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However, I was known to God and I was joined to Jesus Christ in the same way that Ephesians chapter 2
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Says right now we are seated in the heavenly places. That's present tense Well, I don't know about you, but I don't look like I'm seated in heavenly places right now but there is a sense in which that is true because of the certainty of What is going to happen in my glorification the golden chain of redemption
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Romans 8 so the certainty of the application? Does not make it a mere potentiality because a potentiality can fail and the application
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Of the work of Christ can never fail. That's the point
56:19
You see once you what the Geisler view that he made us savable Doesn't actually bring about our salvation unless well, what else happens?
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Well, some people have a real short list of things you have to add to the work of Christ Some people have a very long list of things you have to add to the work of Christ But the point is it's not the work of Christ alone that saves
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Especially when you make the saving faith something that's separate from the work of the Spirit of God within you anyways so in all of these situations the only consistent way of Hearing all of what scripture says to the honor and glory of God is to recognize that As Hebrews chapter 2 says it's most most often misused they just go to verse 9
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But they don't continue reading the rest of the chapter What who has he tasted death for it's those who are his friends.
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It's those who are the elect It's those who are called he has tasted death for them if he has tasted death for every single individual
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Then as the Arminians after Arminius fully understood, which is why they developed a completely different view of atonement
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They understood that if Jesus Christ died and behalf those individuals those individuals will of necessity be saved
57:25
It has to be that way they recognize that and it is just it honestly is just a very much an emotional
57:32
Tradition on the part of so many in your part of the country and and all over the place where you'll say
57:38
Jesus died for me But you won't realize what that really means and you won't really think through what it means to say
57:45
Jesus died for people who will End up in hell, which means God placed their sins upon Jesus Jesus suffers the penalty of their sins
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But but he does this fully knowing that he's also going to punish those very same sins upon that person in hell for eternity
58:03
And that doesn't make a bit of sense at all. That's right. Yeah. Hey, well, thank you.
58:08
Well, thank you Jason And I'm glad we're a Encouragement to you. You're an encouragement to us that we're an encouragement to you.
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So see it works both ways. So I appreciate keep listening Thanks for calling the program today. God bless All right.
58:22
It is great to hear from the folks that appreciate what we're doing the YouTube videos the the dividing line the blog
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It's very very encouraging really is and those aren't just words for me I'm very very encouraged when people call it and say that we are assistants
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Assistants to them and we're gonna try to do that again on Thursday afternoon here on the dividing line.
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God bless. We'll see you then The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries
59:34
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59:39
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59:47
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