Caller Discussions

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 460 to or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

And if you don't light up the phone lines today, it's gonna be a very very long hour. 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is the phone number and I'm I Wouldn't call it a a vacation at all. Because I've been here every day and was even here late last last night but I'm just sort of mentally telling myself I'm not really here this week and.

So as a result like this afternoon, I was spending a bunch of time working on some Arabic. Yeah, I'm really thankful that Windows will do Arabic it has you can install Arabic support and stuff. But it can be really frustrating.

Because it at least in word anyway, it will like reformat stuff for you and Put letters where they weren't before and and you won't even see it happening. That's that's the problem with modern computers.

It just doesn't so fast you go back and you go back to three or four words ahead of time and you go Wait a minute. What but that's not it wasn't that way before and you've already saved your work and you basically have to go back and retype that one and it was it was lots of fun, but It's nice to be able to do it, I mean I remember I Wow talk about how old I am.

In fact, I'm gonna be much older on Monday on Monday. This is here's a math quiz for you all on Monday I will be closer to 70 than I am to 20. That should be you should be able to figure out exactly how that works.

That's yeah, that's special. That's that's wrong. That's because you're already past that mark, buddy. Yeah, I'll be closer to 70 than 20 come come Monday. So anyways, I was just thinking about how long it took me to be able to use Greek and Hebrew in typed Documents on the computer.

We had this. What was that? I was it was called mega writer. We had to buy us program called mega writer. It came on five and a quarter inch disks. Remember five and a quarter inch disks. I remember eight inch disks.

We actually had a computer once the office they use these big massive eight inch floppy disks. But our first real computer had five and a quarter inch floppies. No hard drive 640 K of RAM, which as Bill Gates said no one would ever need more than 640 K.

Anyway, so yeah, I remember all the way back there it's. It's been a while. So Why did I mention it? I don't know just other than to say that. Oh, yeah that I'm not I shouldn't really be complaining too much about Fighting with Arabic and Windows because at least it displays and it prints and high quality stuff and for a long time.

We had this 24 pin NEC printer and that was what we use. Remember that None of us. Oh, that's right. It was an 18. That was between the the nine thing was a total freak. It was weird. It had strange drivers and everything and actually having three headphones on your head the same time makes you look like a total freak.

Where's my camera I want to get that over on you you look like Mickey Mouse or something like that. I mean, what is that all about? Hey, it works.

Yeah, right. We'll see how well I can hear you. Just fine I can hear the callers and if somebody calls on my cell phone I hear that. That really looks bad man.

That was not ever designed to work that way. Oh goodness. Hey, seven seven seven five three three, three, four one. We've already got two folks online. Then we'll get a few more folks on there. Just real briefly.

I had to chuckle. Ah, I noticed that good old Steve Ray Steve Ray responded to something that Tiquid said James Swan said and all he was doing was What what he likes to do is he likes to examine? What people say about Luther because Luther is one of those guys that you can just you know You can come up with almost anything to make you know put Luther in your corner and and he likes to dig through Luther and track down these citations and and Demonstrate that people are playing fast to lose the truth and so he was looking at something that Steve Ray said in one of his books, I think in crossing the Tiber and so keeping in mind That Steve Ray said what about a month ago month and a half ago or so when I started taking apart his PDF on The assumption of Mary.

That he wasn't going to respond to my rantings and my ravings because obviously I think he's far more important. He thinks I am important and I'm not important enough to to waste time to even read this stuff.

Blah blah blah blah blah and of course we point out the time That he had taken the time to write this to cobble together this 30 some odd page PDF. So for some reason I was important enough then but then somehow my importance rating dropped and so and I guess he determines those things and so he wasn't gonna bother to you know respond to the refutation of his claims and so, you know, we chuckled about that because we really know what's going on and so I Couldn't help but but but chuckle a little bit as I looked at this.

What is it? How many pages is this about a 12 page 11 page? PDF that he posts in response to this this brief article that James Swan put up and One of the first lines about the fourth paragraph down. It says he strikes me as a James White wannabe, but he's nowhere near as clever now aside from the spelling nowhere, uh, I Couldn't help but chuckle.

All right, if he's nowhere near as clever as I am. Why do you write? Why are you writing an 11 or 12 page PDF in response to him when I am not important enough to respond to? Remember because that's why he's stopped responding to anything that I was saying That's sort of hard to figure out exactly where Steve Ray is at times.

Well other than the fact he's normally not in the United States. He's off on a pilgrimage bopping around the Holy Land someplace or Rome or wherever taking folks on on trips, he's basically a sort of like a Somewhat theological tour guide I guess a travel agent travel agent slash tour guide I guess is what it is with a really funny-looking hat.

So that's What's going on there? But Jim Swan said he's gonna respond to that This weekend. I'm looking forward to that. I Don't know. I really have time to get into it, but I did find interesting Steve Ray continues to demonstrate his tremendous inconsistency eight seven seven seven five three three three four one and We've got our phone lines open for you.

And some interesting phone calls right off the bat here, let's talk with.

John Damascene’s Critique of Islam and Early Muslim-Christian History

Mark hi mark. How are you? Hello. How are you? I'm good. How are you? Good. I just had a big Hebrew final.

So I'm uh, that's that's that is that time of year. Everybody's wrapping up the semester and getting ready to go home. So.

How well did you think you did? Oh, well, I think I'm doing pretty well in the class. So I to evil.

Probably get an A. But but we'll see. So the name I have the moral state of the professor will determine Your your final grade or is it just simply, you know that you did so. Well that's that you will do that.

You'll get a.

Well truth here brother speak to tell how hard he fluctuates how harsh he marks the test. Oh. So if I have the same problems that everybody else did then then I'm doing pretty good. But I didn't then it might not be.

Yeah Hebrew is.

Hebrew is fun. I'm beginners. There's no two ways about it, but I'm awfully glad that. That I. I took it because it certainly is helping with Arabic now. There's no choice about it. So anyway, that wasn't your actual.

Reason for calling what's. You do have an interesting topic here. Yes. Well, I was first. I was curious, you know about st. John a Damascus Critique of Islam in his heresy book. Yeah, obviously he.

Actually lived during a time when Islam had taken over Damascus and he actually as I recall worked was even I guess we wouldn't use the term employed but worked under Islamic rulership and in his work on heresies he included a critique of Islam that is one of the earliest that we have and hence is very useful for determining what the first generation of Christians who encountered Islam and who who were living under it's different.

During the time period when Islam is expanding in the sense that you've just got warfare and you don't have time for study. Many scholars look at what st. John Damascene had available to him as one of the early indications of the state of the Quran.

Contemporaneous st. John Damascene. One writer for example makes reference To al-baqarah as a which is surah 2 as a book unto itself separate from the Quran, which is very very interesting. And his works are very important along those lines he being one of the first ones really to see Islam as a as having elements of Christian heresy in it and.

So yeah, in fact back. As you may well, I guess not but because you're in Vancouver, which is the wrong end of the country, but back in September when I spoke for soul scripture ministries at their conference in Toronto.

Oh. The name was right there I was about to say it and it left me. Anyways the head of I think Detroit Baptist Seminary, dr. Michael that up that up that ah. Lost name. It just has just completely escaped me.

Anyways, he delivered an excellent Presentation on the history of Islam and included an entire section on st. John Damascene's writings. Yeah, well, thank you. Thank you Bartimaeus.

Haken delivered that right? I lied one. I wanted to know if you knew about how accurate it was and to if you understood his camel argument against Islam because I read the doc I read his critique and the only thing that I found confusing was his Camel arguments against Islam and I was wondering if you could elaborate on that.

But if you don't know it then then just well.

The only the only camel argument that I'm familiar with is the Statement that says that the camel There are 99 glorious names of Allah and Anyone can look those up online. Many of those names are the same names that are used and descriptions are used in scripture in regards to creator faithful true sustainer merciful etc, etc.

But the 100th name according to a famous statement is known only to Allah and to the camel. Which is why the camel looks at you in an arrogant way is because the camel knows that he knows the hundredth name that you don't know.

That's so that was a new very yeah. Yeah, that's that's that's the foundation of what's called the camel method today. That is being promoted amongst Southern Baptists, which I think our next caller is going to be talking about.

That in essence says that hundredth name is the name of Jesus and that you then use that story from Islam To present Jesus as that name of Allah that that the camel knows and that Muslims do not.

Know yeah about some book called the camel of God and asked to do. Really confusing. I do her but then dies and goes to heaven and I don't know. And st John has a whole section on all this and it's like supposed to be some sort of I think he's trying to Argue against infused by and I was hoping you knew but I guess I'm sorry.

I don't because that element of his writings is not in my English edition and taking the time to Pull that out of the thesaurus lingua grecca and translate it from Greek would be very very extensive. So I do want to obtain that for my library if it's available in English translation.

Where'd you get it?

Oh, I just. You just search online things. John Damascus. You found these was a CC EL. Or I know a CC CC EL doesn't have it. I found it on actually on a the the translation I read was on a. It's on a or it's on a an Orthodox Eastern Orthodox Website www .orthodoxinfo .com.

Okay, and they have a translation of st. John's heresy argument against Islam.

On their website, I'd like to get the whole thing because I've only seen segments of and that's why I'm not familiar with what he said about that specifically.

Right, and how and how reliable is it. Like when he's talking about Islam and what Muslims believe how reliable is. Well.

Well, remember, how do we determine that because the the value of it? Is that this gives us a representation of what he was experiencing in his time frame? And there aren't a lot of really good resources Even in Islam for exactly what Islam was like at that particular point in time.

So obviously there are going to be major differences as to developed Islam later on. But that's not the point. You know, there's there's no way of saying how accurate did how accurately did he represent? the Islam of his day.

That's part of the argument. But there's no way of really deciding that because you don't have any mechanism of knowing exactly what Islam looked like in his day. That's the value of those early apologetic encounters between Christians and Muslims is that the Christians say some very interesting things and Muslims respond in some very interesting ways as well.

And there are all sorts of rumors running around amongst Christians and how many of them have Have value and how many of them do not and how much value are we to assign to them? And do we see corresponding reactions in the Hadith as the Hadith developed during the same period of time and there's all sorts of questions as to You know how exactly that works so.

Really no way of answering that question. I mean it obviously wouldn't be Overly relevant to a modern-day Islamic apologist outside of the fact that it's a great Historical source to to look at what Islam was claiming at the time and and what's.

Not it's not so much what he said. But for example things that he didn't say. In other words if there are emphases in Islam today, that would be directly contrary to John's beliefs that he does not even begin to address.

Does that indicate that they were not emphases in Islam originally and that they developed later on and that's that's? Sort of the value of that kind of that kind of literature.

And what do you think if his argument that Islam is basically just the Christian heresy. Well?

Yeah, that's that's how the that's how the original folks viewed it and there are many Islamists, I'm sorry orientalists who would point to that and they they would say look the if the earliest Christians saw this as a Christian heresy then The role of Jesus and the role of Muhammad have to have changed a good bit over time because a Christian encountering Islam today and the very marginalized position of Jesus and the very centralized position of Muhammad would Not identify that as a Christian religion, but heretical they'd see as a completely different religion the fact the early Christians Saw it as a Christian religion, but a heretical one would seem to indicate that there might be some Merit to the statements of certain orientalists today that would say that Islam actually did start as a Christian heresy and then Especially with with political control very quickly evolved away from that into a completely different religion Through the substitution of Muhammad for the role of Jesus now of course they would likewise say the Quran has been Radically altered and changed in its compilation and they would point to evidence of that.

I mean one of the big issues that's out there that people don't know about is is the fact that the There are many many many archaeological sites under the control of Islamic governments today. That would be wonderful To examine going back to the earliest mosques in the Islamic religion.

Because the few that have been excavated Some of the very earliest of them There the Qibla and I've mentioned this in the program before but the Qibla Which indicates the direction in in which people are to face while they are praying which is a part of the revelation of the Quran itself.

The Qibla is in these particular mosques do not face toward Mecca. They face toward Jerusalem, and if you've ever looked at the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem You'll notice it is not like a regular mosque.

It is circular in form like you were to do circumambulation that is walking around the Dome of the Rock and That's what you do in Mecca walking around the Kaaba in in the Grand Mosque in Mecca. And so if those earliest mosques were not pointing toward Mecca But toward Jerusalem was that the original idea that Jerusalem was to be the holy city of the Muslims which of course would then connect in with this very idea that the originally it was a Christian heresy, and I remember speaking with a couple of Orientalist scholars Who likewise shared with me their view that they they believe that the original?

The the Shahada the the statement of faith that Muslims have to give to become a Muslim. Allah is the only Allah and Muhammad is his messenger if you look at the word Muhammad as As Descriptive rather than as a noun that is the the the exalted one the exalted one is his messenger you look into the Quran and who is described in this way, but as but it's Jesus and So their their view is that Muhammad is actually a creation a political creation over time and that originally Jesus was the messenger and then another Orientalist came along and hated said hey by the way as I've been studying all of the Material culture of Islam when I say material culture the things that have been left over over time.

Especially coins. He says I've got a hundred and sixty-five years into the Islamic period. I've yet to find Muhammad on a coin. Now how does that happen? He says I found Jesus all the time, but I haven't found Muhammad now.

That's again. These are things. I just I mentioned that people are raising these issues and looking at these issues. I Personally think that you can only really deal with Islam at this point in time By dealing with what it teaches and believes these are important issues.

These are issues worth studying and reading about. I certainly do but especially due to the fact that Islamic countries will not allow for meaningful Archaeological excavation of many of these sites that could shed much more light on This subject and there's no reason for them to be doing so in the future.

Unfortunately, it's really difficult to come to really firm conclusions on those things. Where do you get all this oriental list? Information like what what.

Is there like sources you can point me to. Well?

Yeah, I mean, but they're pretty they're they're pretty obscure in the sense that many of these books that are published are Exceptionally expensive and and are primarily only found in libraries. Especially European libraries, they're frequently not in in English.

And for reasons I think are fairly clear I can't go into some of the details about some of the people just simply for their safety reason. But I had the opportunity this year of spending some time with certain scholars whose work in this field is world-class and and just asking them questions and listening to their answers and interacting with them.

And a lot of a lot of some of the stuff that I was just mentioning now Is actually primarily only available in German. Some of the scholars I was speaking with that was their primary language and but the Qibla information.

You can hear that being discussed by Jay Smith and his lectures on that subject even in his debate with Shabir Ali Which is available online. He discusses the the issue of the the Qibla and what orientalists are saying about that.

So It's out there. But a lot of it is.

Somewhat difficult to track down. And one final thing the St. John Damascus thing can also be found in the Fathers of the Church volume 37 from his writings Published 1958 by the Catholic University of America page 153 to 160.

Okay. All right. Appreciate that.

Thank you very much. Yep. Bye. Bye. Bye. All right. Well, there's an interesting way to get things started. But that leaves us the only one phone call folks and once we get done with Brian and we take our break and stuff We're gonna need some more phone callers.

So so certainly with the with the Mitt Romney stuff this week. I was on Radio station in Detroit yesterday discussing that. That's been been quite the interesting topic as well. And so feel free to pick up the phone and call eight seven seven seven five three three three four one and We will utilize your question here on the air.

Let's talk with Brian. Hi Brian. Hello Brian, hello, sir. How are you? I'm doing good. Thank you for taking my call. Yes, sir.

I'm calling with regards to something you almost brought up with the last caller. You sort of Talked about it very briefly as the camel method. Uh-huh. I just finished my semester and I wrote a term paper on the camel method and just wanted to get your feedback on it on On the subject rather on what you thought about it.

It's kind of controversial right now and I know that doctors Ergin and Amir can are sort of spearheading the the.

Just the defense against it and let me let me back the defense against it. In other words, they don't like it. Yes, sir. That's correct. Oh, okay. I was not aware of What their position on this particular subject was?

Oh if.

What I've heard is correct. Dr. Kanner. Dr. Ergin Kanner's had several meetings with some International Mission Board people trying to get them to take a firm stance against it.

But so because I know it seems to be quite popular among Southern Baptists.

They from what I've read online they seem sort of divided over it. Well, I mean maybe it's just because I'm I'm in Liberty and that's kind of what what we hear about. Right, right.

Well, I got the book a couple months ago because everybody was talking about it. And I haven't spent a whole lot of time on it. Since you wrote a paper on it. Why don't you want to summarize? The argument for folks who've never heard of using camels and evangelism.

Sure, sure, essentially what what Kevin Greeson advocates is that That when you sit down and speak with a Muslim that you're not going to get a hearing with him. If you sit down and say well I want to share with you something from the Bible that there and they'll immediately shut you out and not want to listen to you at best and He he Instead advises missionaries and evangelists of all sorts to use the Quran in their evangelism to open up to surah 3 and From surah 3 take three points that can be deduced from that surah that Esa who is Jesus that that surah says that the Esa is holy that he Has power over death and that he knows the way to heaven and if he can get a Muslim that he's talking to to agree To those three things.

Yes, the surah says he says holy. Yes, it says that he has power over death. Yes, it says he knows the way to heaven that from that point. He poses the question Well, then don't you suppose that Esa is more than a prophet since none of the other prophets made these claims?

And if they say yes, then he attempts to bridge to the Bible and. And and from there says well then if he's more than a prophet let's find out what the Bible says about him and What I essentially argued in my paper was that the method is not.

It's not we shouldn't throw it out entirely. I don't think and Although Greeson doesn't give a lot of attention to it in his book I think he probably should have given a lot more attention to a defense from act 17.

When Paul is in Athens and he he quotes the pagan philosophers and then uses that to bridge to the gospel. I think I think reason is essentially doing the same thing. What happens from that point I found questionable and I argued in my paper that That the method is in need of reform rather than we just we should just trash it which I think is what the Cantor's are advocating but things like He says at the end of his book in an appendix because he's been challenged on it.

You know. Well, if if you've used this method is a is a former Muslim at this point if they say, okay I do realize these things about Jesus and I want to follow Jesus. They'll hold to the authority of the Quran or do they hold the soul of scriptura?

Essentially and and what reason says it says well. If you ask any of them, they'll say that their Bible is is better and that if they could only have one book. They'll have the Bible. Well, you know some Mormons say that so I Wasn't really I was I was troubled by some of the things he didn't address, you know.

If you told him to throw their cars in the trash can would they be willing to do that? He said that they hold on to them for evangelistic purposes. Um, which yeah, which I have an issue with yeah, I think there are parts of it that need to be cleaned up.

Yeah.

Cleaned up. That's a that's a nice euphemism and it depends on what it means. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Well, you know and I I can understand a desire to utilize What's generally called common ground or some mechanism of opening up a dialogue.

The the problem is when you use as your first statement or as your first step something that in essence does not challenge the authority of a revelation that is Fundamentally opposed to the message you're seeking to communicate.

Can you leave yourself open to being accused of some level of dishonesty later on that is right if you get through the system? You know get through the talk a certain distance and then the person comes back and says no.

Wait a minute. You you start off by asking me about what surah 3 says about Isa and that he's holy He knows the way of heaven and so on and so forth and then you use that as a stepping stone to get me to admit To other things but now you're coming around to tell me that what this same book says about Isa is wrong In surah 5 and surah 4 and surah 2 and so on so forth.

Aren't you contradicting what you've done before that I think becomes the most problematic element at least for someone who wants to be able to be Consistent, you know from from start to finish in their presentation of the gospel, right?

And that's that's essentially what I tried to advocate. I said, you know, I guess what I argued for I said I said this is this is not bad in of itself. It's a good method as long as we sit down with them and say, okay.

You know all truth is God's truth, you know, if the Quran says a rose is red then okay, that's that's true. Rose is red. Yes. But can we sit down and specifically address this that what I was communicating to you was true.

But that I was not communicating a love for the Quran or something like that, right Brian.

The Camel Method and Evangelism Among Muslims

Could you I put you on hold over the break? I want to. I want to contrast that with the approach that I illustrated In the in the videos that I posted on my blog this week. Well, hold on a second. Hold on a second and let's take our break and we'll be right back.

What is dr Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen, but free a new cult. Secularism. False prophecy scenarios. No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called Calvinism.

He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent. Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant. In his book the potter's freedom James White replies to dr. Geisler. But the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply.

It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded. Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate.

James White masterfully counters the evidence against so-called extreme Calvinism defines what the Reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the Reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture.

The potter's freedom a defense of the Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen but free you'll find it in the Reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omen org. Hello everyone, this is Rich Pierce.

In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man-centered self-help program. The need for a no-nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater. I am convinced that a great many go to church every Sunday yet.

They have never been confronted with their sin. Alpha Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses. Man is sinful and God is holy. That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?

We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well.

Support Alpha Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace. Thank you. The history of the Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of.

Exactly what doctrine does it pivot on? Single click. There were professionals around here. We make the big bucks. Thank you. All. Right, let's continue on with Brian here. And I'm not sure if you got to see the videos on on my blog Brian.

I looked through. I looked at one of them earlier this evening. Just the most recent one that you put up.

Yeah, that was a third part where I went through all the class that that sort of illustrates at least how I would see The Quran used in that context and that is it would seem to me that that he's right that That We need to open a door of conversation.

But in my experience the door of conversation can be opened by a demonstration on our part. That we have taken the time to listen to what they have to say because in 99 of the situations They haven't taken the time to listen to what we have to say.

And if we've done that we've shown that level of of concern for them then that can open the opportunity for them to listen to what we have to say and so In in a situation like that I can look at Ali class and I can contrast that What is said in in the third ayah of surah 112?

Where is said that to God neither begets nor is he begotten with the prophecy of Jesus' Coming in Isaiah chapter 9 and that gives me an opportunity to introduce all sorts of things. It's a fact that this is written 1 ,300 years before Muhammad and That we have been able to demonstrate that through the Isaiah scroll and Dead Sea Scrolls that this is what was written.

That it wasn't changed. It wasn't altered anything like that. It passed down through 700 years. We know that that's what would existed in the days of Muhammad and of course the Quran itself says bring forth a book like the Quran or The Torah that people don't realize that that text is in there, too.

And that would have been a part of the Old Testament scriptures that existed in that day. And all the rest that's a it gives me an opportunity to say those things while transitioning into a presentation of who Jesus is and I don't have to ever say.

What would you agree with these teachings from the Quran and then use that as the as the transition? What I've done is I've demonstrated that I I do Care enough to have read their holy book and to in fact read it carefully and with some level of knowledge and Many people not all obviously but many people when someone takes the time to do that feel some level of obligation to at least Listen to what the person has to say and that can be the the door opener at that point and you don't have to go Back and apologize for it later on good.

Yeah, I know I got you on that one didn't I?

Right. Well, yeah, and I don't think it should be our motivation. Do you know to get him? Right. To trick him into the gospel, you know.

Yeah, so I think that's and there's a lot of ways of doing that I mean there are a number of passages in the Quran about Esau and there are a number of directions that one can go and certainly. There's there's numerous texts, you know when I talk about Surah 112 in that video clip the last one that I put up, you know, it talks about how Allah is the eternal absolute and Allah is the one and only well, those are Almost paraphrases of texts in Isaiah and so you can say, you know, if it weren't for this this addition of this idea of of Unitarianism and then that gives you an opportunity of even explaining and what I did in that series that we recorded last week.

There were 12 programs in that series and in part of what I was doing was explaining the doctrine of The Trinity and I was explaining why Christians do not commit shirk. Because I mean you've got to explain that to a Muslim, right?

If they know anything at all if they've listened to the imams and have not fallen asleep within the first three minutes. They you know, I mean seriously, they know that they understand we're mushrik. Those are the Christians are mushrik they are they they've committed shirk their coffer and and so.

That's just what they've been taught and for someone to raise that issue to them first and say and you know. You know why it is that that Christians do not commit shirk. Here's why and they're left going.

Wow, you know. Obviously someone has at least prepared themselves to to speak intelligently to my my faith. So, you know, that's am I agreeing with Eric and Cantor here? That's what I want to know. Are you a spy?

That's what I want to know.

When I called in rich asked me he said he said where are you. I said Liberty University. He said what room.

He was then going to ask for your credit card and say if you want to live. So anyways, well that's that's interesting that that's that's going on there I was not aware of I'm aware of the controversy, but I wasn't aware that Ergon and emir were Taking a stand against it.