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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line
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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence
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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed
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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation if you'd like to talk with dr.
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White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the
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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five Three three three four one and now with today's topic.
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Here is James white And if you don't light up the phone lines today, it's going to be a very very long hour
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Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number and I'm I Wouldn't call it a a vacation at all
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Because I've been here every day and was even here late last last night but I'm just sort of mentally telling myself
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I'm not really here this week and So as a result like this afternoon, I was spending a bunch of time working on some
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Arabic Yeah, I'm really thankful that Windows will do
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Arabic it has you can install Arabic support and stuff But it can be really frustrating
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Because it at least in word anyway, it will like reformat stuff for you and Put letters where they weren't before and and you won't even see it happening.
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That's that's the problem with modern computers It just does it so fast you go back and you go back to three or four words ahead of time and you go
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Wait a minute What but that's not it wasn't that way before and you've already saved your work and you basically have to go back and retype that one and it was it was lots of fun, but It's nice to be able to do it,
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I mean I remember I Wow talk about how old I am In fact, I'm gonna be much older on Monday on Monday.
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This is here's a math quiz for you all on Monday I will be closer to 70 than I am to 20.
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That should be you should be able to figure out exactly how that works That's yeah, that's special. That's that's wrong.
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That's because you're already past that mark, buddy Yeah, I'll be closer to 70 than 20 come come
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Monday So anyways, I was just thinking about how long it took me to be able to use
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Greek and Hebrew in typed Documents on the computer. We had this. What was that?
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I was it was called mega writer We had to buy this program called mega writer. It came on five and a quarter inch disks
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Remember five and a quarter inch disks. I remember eight inch disks We actually had a computer once the office they use these big massive eight inch floppy disks
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But our first real computer had five and a quarter inch floppies. No hard drive 640
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K of RAM which as Bill Gates said no one would ever need more than 640 Anyway, so yeah,
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I remember all the way back there it's It's been a while. So Why did
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I mention it? I don't know just other than to say that. Oh, yeah that I'm not
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I shouldn't really be complaining too much about Fighting with Arabic and Windows because at least it displays and it prints and high quality stuff and for a long time 24 -pin
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NEC printer and that was what we use. Remember that None of us.
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Oh, that's right. It was an 18. I was between the the nine thing was a total freak It was weird
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It had strange drivers and everything and actually having three headphones on your head at the same time makes you look like a total freak
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Where's my camera I want to get that over on you you look like Mickey Mouse or something like that I mean, what is that all about?
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Hey, it works Yeah, right, I will see how well I can hear you just fine
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I hear the callers and if somebody calls on my cell phone, I hear that that really looks bad Yeah, that was not ever designed to work that way.
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Oh goodness Eight seven seven seven five three three, three, four one.
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We've already got two folks online Then we'll get a few more folks on there. Just real briefly. I had to chuckle.
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I Noticed that good old Steve Ray Steve Ray responded to something that T quid said
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James Swan said and all he was doing was What what he likes to do is he likes to examine?
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What people say about Luther because Luther is one of those guys that you can just you know
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You can come up with almost anything to make you know put Luther in your corner and and he likes to dig through Luther and track down these citations and and Demonstrate that people are playing fast and loose the truth and so he was looking at something that Steve Ray said in one of his books,
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I think in crossing the Tiber and so keeping in mind That Steve Ray said what about a month ago month and a half ago or so when
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I started taking apart his PDF on The assumption of Mary That he wasn't going to respond to my rantings and my ravings because obviously
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I think he's Far more important than he thinks I am important and I'm not important enough to to waste time to even read this stuff blah blah blah
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Blah blah, and of course we point out the time That he had taken the time to write this and to cobble together this 30 some odd page
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PDF so for some reason I was important enough then but then somehow my importance rating dropped and so and I guess he determines those things and so he wasn't gonna bother to you know respond to the refutation of his claims and so, you know, we chuckled about that because we really know what's going on and so I Couldn't help but but but chuckle a little bit as I looked at this
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What is it? How many pages is this about a 12 page 11 page? PDF that he posts in response to this this brief article that the
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James Swan put up and One of the first lines about the fourth paragraph down It says he strikes me as a
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James White wannabe, but he's nowhere near as clever now aside from the spelling nowhere, uh,
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I Couldn't help but chuckle. All right, if he's nowhere near as clever as I am.
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Why do you write? Why are you writing an 11 or 12 page? PDF in response to him when I am not important enough to respond to remember because that's why he's stopped
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Responding to anything that I was saying That's sort of hard to figure out exactly where Steve Ray is at times well other than the fact he's normally not in the
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United States he's off on a pilgrimage bopping around the Holy Land someplace or Rome or wherever taking folks on on trips, he's basically a sort of like a
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Somewhat theological Tour guide I guess a travel agent travel agent tour guide
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I guess is what it is with a really funny -looking hat. So that's What's going on there, but Jim Swan said he's gonna respond to that This weekend.
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I'm looking forward to that. I Don't know. I really have time to get into it, but I did find interesting Steve Ray Continues to demonstrate his tremendous inconsistency eight seven seven seven five three three three four one and We've got our phone lines open for you
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And some interesting phone calls right off the bat here, let's talk with Mark hi mark.
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How are you? Hello? How are you? I'm good. How are you good? I just had a big Hebrew final
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So I'm uh, that's that's that is that time of year everybody's wrapping up the semester and getting ready to go home.
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So How well did you think you did? Oh, well, I think I'm doing pretty well in the class.
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So as long as uh, as long as the prof is not too Evil, I should probably get an a but but we'll see
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So the name on the moral state of the professor will determine your your final grade
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Or is it just simply, you know that you did so well, that's uh that you will do that. You'll get an a
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Well, there's a truth here brother speak the truth how hard he fluctuates how harsh he marks the test.
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Oh I see. So if I have the same problems that everybody else did then then
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I'm doing pretty good Well, I didn't then it might not be. Yeah Hebrew is Hebrew is fun on beginners.
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There's no two ways about it, but I'm awfully glad that That I I took it because it certainly is helping with Arabic now, there's no choice about it.
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So anyway, that wasn't your actual reason for calling what's You do have an interesting topic here.
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Yes. Well, I was first I was curious, you know about st. John a Damascus Critique of Islam in his heresy book.
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Yeah, obviously he Actually lived during a time when Islam had taken over Damascus and he actually as I recall worked was even
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I guess we wouldn't use the term employed but worked under Islamic rulership and in his work on heresies he included a critique of Islam that is one of the earliest that we have and hence is
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Very useful for determining what the first generation of Christians who encountered
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Islam and who who were living under it's different During the time period when Islam is expanding in the sense that you've just got warfare and you don't have time for study
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Many scholars look at what st. John Damascene had available to him as One of the early indications of the state of the
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Quran contemporaneous st. St. John Damascene one writer for example makes reference to Al -baqarah as a which is surah 2 as a book unto itself separate from the
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Quran, which is very very interesting And his works are very important along those lines he being one of the first ones really to See Islam as a as having elements of Christian heresy in it.
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And so yeah, in fact back As you may well,
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I guess not but because you're in Vancouver, which is the wrong end of the country, but back in September when
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I spoke for soul scripture ministries at their conference in Toronto Oh The name was right there
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I was about to say it and it left me Anyways the head of I think
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Detroit Baptist Seminary, dr. Michael that up that up that ah Lost name.
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It just has just completely escaped me. Anyways, he delivered an excellent Presentation on the history of Islam and included an entire section on st.
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John Damascene's writings Thank you. Thank you Bartimaeus Bacon delivered that right?
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I lied one I wanted to know if you knew about how accurate it was and to if you understood his camel argument against Islam because I read the doc
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I read his critique and the only thing that I found confusing was his Camel arguments against Islam and I was wondering if you could elaborate on that but if you don't know it then then just well, the only the only camel argument that I'm familiar with is the
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Statement that says that the camel There are 99 glorious names of Allah and Anyone can look those up online
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Many of those names are the same names that are used and descriptions are used in scripture in regards to creator faithful true sustainer merciful, etc, etc
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But the 100th name According to a famous statement is known only to Allah and to the camel
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Which is why the camel looks at you in an arrogant way is because the camel knows that he knows the hundredth name that you don't know that's
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That's that's that's the foundation of what's called the camel Method today that is being promoted amongst
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Southern Baptists, which I think our next caller is going to be talking about That in essence says that hundredth name is the name of Jesus and that you then use that story from Islam To present
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Jesus as that name of Allah that that the camel knows and that Muslims do not
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No, yeah, did you think John was talking about some book called the camel of God and asked to do with I?
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Don't know. I was really confusing I do with a camel who is drinking water but then dies and goes to heaven and I don't know and st
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John has a whole section on all this and it's like supposed to be some sort of I think he's trying to argue against Islam with it, but I wasn't
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I was confused by I was hoping you knew but I guess I'm sorry I don't because that element of his writings is not in my
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English edition and taking the time to Pull that out of the thesaurus lingua grecia and translate it from Greek would be very very extensive
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So I do want to obtain that for my library if it's available in English translation.
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Where'd you get it? Oh, I just you just search online things John Damascus. You found these was a
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CC EL Or I know I see CC EL doesn't have it
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I found it on actually on a the the translation I read was on a it's on a or it's on a an
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Orthodox Eastern Orthodox Website www .orthodoxinfo
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.com Okay, and they have a translation of st. John's heresy argument against Islam On their website.
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I'd like to get the whole thing because I've only seen segments of and that's why I'm not familiar with what he said about that specifically
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Right, and how and how reliable is it like when he's talking about Islam and what
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Muslims believe how reliable is well Remember how do we determine that because the the value of it is that this gives us a representation of what he
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Was experiencing in his time frame and there aren't a lot of really good resources
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Even in Islam for exactly what Islam was like at that particular point in time So obviously there are going to be major differences as to developed
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Islam later on But that's not the point You know, there's there's no way of saying how accurate did how accurately did he represent the
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Islam of his day? That's part of the argument But there's no way of really deciding that because you don't have any mechanism of knowing exactly what
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Islam looked like in his day That's the value of those early apologetic encounters between Christians and Muslims is that the
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Christians say some very interesting things and Muslims respond in some very interesting ways as well and there are all sorts of rumors running around amongst
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Christians and how many of them have Have value and how many of them do not and how much value are we to assign to them?
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And do we see corresponding reactions in the Hadith as the Hadith developed during the same period of time?
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and there's all sorts of questions as to you know how exactly that works, so Really no way of answering that question.
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I mean it obviously wouldn't be Overly relevant to a modern -day Islamic apologist outside of the fact that it's a great historical source to to look at what
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Islam was claiming at the time and and what's Not it's not so much what he said
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But for example things that he didn't say in other words if there are emphases in Islam today, that would be directly contrary to John's beliefs that he does not even begin to address
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Does that indicate that they were not emphases in Islam originally and that they developed later on and that's that's?
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Sort of the value of that kind of that kind of literature And what do you think if his argument that Islam is basically just the
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Christian heresy well? Yeah, that's that's how the that's how the original folks viewed it and there are many
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Islamists, I'm sorry orientalists who would point to that and they they would say look the if the earliest
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Christians saw this as a Christian heresy then The role of Jesus and the role of Muhammad have to have changed a good bit over time because a
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Christian encountering Islam today and the very marginalized position of Jesus and the very centralized position of Muhammad would
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Not identify that as a Christian religion, but heretical they'd see as a completely different religion the fact the early
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Christians Saw it as a Christian religion, but a heretical one would seem to indicate that there might be some merit to the statements of certain orientalists today that would say that Islam actually did start as a
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Christian heresy and then Especially with with political control very quickly evolved away from that into a completely different religion
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Through the substitution of Muhammad for the role of Jesus now of course they would likewise say the
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Quran has been radically altered and changed In its compilation, and they would point to evidence of that.
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I mean one of the big issues that's out there that people don't know about is is the fact that the there are many many many
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Archaeological sites under the control of Islamic governments today that would be wonderful To examine going back to the earliest mosques in the
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Islamic religion Because the few that have been excavated Some of the very earliest of them
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They're the Qibla and I've mentioned this in the program before but the Qibla Which indicates the direction in in which people are to face while they are praying which is a part of the revelation of the
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Quran itself The Qibla's in these particular mosques do not face toward Mecca They face toward Jerusalem, and if you've ever looked at the
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Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem You'll notice it is not like a regular mosque. It is circular in form like you were to do circumambulation that is walking around the
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Dome of the Rock and That's what you do in Mecca walking around the Kaaba in in the
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Grand Mosque in Mecca And so if those earliest mosques were not pointing toward Mecca But toward Jerusalem was that the original idea that Jerusalem was to be the holy city of the
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Muslims which of course would then connect in with this very idea that originally it was a
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Christian heresy and I remember speaking with a a couple of Orientalist scholars
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Who likewise shared with me their view that they they believe that the original?
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The the Shahada the the statement of faith that Muslims have to give to become a
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Muslim Allah is the only Allah and Muhammad is his messenger if you look at the word
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Muhammad as as descriptive rather than as a noun that is the the the
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Exalted one the exalted one is his messenger you look into the Quran and who is described in this way, but as it's
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Jesus and So their their view is that Muhammad is actually a creation a political creation over time and that originally
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Jesus was the messenger and then another Orientalist came along and hated said hey by the way as I've been studying all of the
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Material culture of Islam when I say material culture the things that have been left over over time especially coins
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He says I've gone 165 years into the Islamic period. I've yet to find Muhammad on a coin Now how does that happen?
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He says I found Jesus all the time, but I haven't found Muhammad now That's again. These are things. I just I mentioned that people are raising these issues and looking at these issues.
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I Personally think that you can only really deal with Islam at this point in time By dealing with what it teaches and believes these are important issues
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These are issues worth studying and reading about I certainly do but Especially do the fact that Islamic countries will not allow for meaningful
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Archaeological excavation of many of these sites that could shed much more light on This subject and there's no reason for them to be doing so in the future
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Unfortunately, it's really difficult to come to really firm conclusions on those things. Where do you get all this
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Orientalist? information like what what Is there like sources you can point me to well?
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Yeah, I mean, but they're pretty they're they're pretty obscure in the sense that many of these books that are published are
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Exceptionally expensive and and are primarily only found in libraries Especially European libraries, they're frequently not in in English And for reasons
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I think are fairly clear I can't go into some of the details about some of the people just simply for their safety reason
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But I had the opportunity this year of spending some time with certain scholars whose work in this field is world -class and and just asking them questions and listening to their answers and interacting with them and a lot of a lot of some of the stuff that I was just mentioning now is actually primarily only available in German some of the scholars
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I was speaking with that was their primary language and But the Qibla information
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You can hear that being discussed by Jay Smith and his lectures on that subject even in his debate with Shabir Ali Which is available online he discusses the the issue of the the
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Qibla and what Orientalists are saying about that so It's out there, but a lot of it is
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Is somewhat difficult to track down and one final thing the st. John Domasics thing can also be found in the
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Fathers of the Church volume 37 from his writings Published 1958 by the
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Catholic University of America page 153 to 160. Okay. All right. Appreciate that Thank you very much.
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Yep. Bye. Bye All right. Well, there's an interesting way to get things started Let's uh, but that leaves us the only one phone call folks
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And once we get done with Brian and we take our break and stuff, we're gonna need some more phone callers So so certainly with the with the
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Mitt Romney stuff this week. I was on radio station Detroit yesterday discussing that That's been been quite the interesting topic as well.
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And so feel free to pick up the phone and call 877 -753 -3341 and We will utilize your question here on the air, let's talk with Brian.
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Hi Brian Hello Brian, hello, sir. How are you? I'm doing good
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Thanks for taking my call. Yes, sir I'm calling with regards to something you almost brought up with the last caller.
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He sort of Talked about it very briefly as the camel method. Uh -huh I just finished my semester and I wrote a term paper on the camel method and just wanted to get your feedback on it on On the subject rather on what you thought about it it's kind of controversial right now and I know that doctors
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Ergun and Amir can are sort of spearheading the the Just the defense against it and let me let me back the defense against it.
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In other words, they don't like it Yes, sir. That's correct. Oh, okay. I was not aware of What their position on this particular subject was?
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Oh if What I've heard is correct. Dr. Kanner Dr. Ergun Kanner's had several meetings with some
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International Mission Board people trying to get them to take a firm stance against it But so because I know it seems to be quite popular among Southern Baptists They from what
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I've read online they seem sort of divided over it Well, I mean, maybe it's just because I'm I'm in Liberty and that's kind of what what we hear about, right?
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Right. Well, I got the book a couple months ago because everybody was talking about it
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And I haven't spent a whole lot of time on it since you wrote a paper on it.
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Why don't you want to summarize? The argument for folks who've never heard of using camels and evangelism
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Sure, sure, essentially what what Kevin Greeson advocates is that That when you sit down and speak with a
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Muslim that you're not going to get a hearing with him If you sit down and say well I want to share with you something from the Bible that they're they'll immediately shut you out and not want to listen to you at best and he
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Instead advises missionaries and evangelists of all sorts to use the Quran in their evangelism to open up to surah 3 and From surah 3 take three points that can be deduced from that surah that ESA who's
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Jesus? that that surah says that the ESA is holy that he Has power over death and that he knows the way to heaven and if he can get a
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Muslim that he's talking to to agree To those three things. Yes, the surah says he says holy. Yes, it says that he has power over death
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Yes, it says he knows the way to heaven that from that point. He poses the question Well, then don't you suppose that ESA is more than a prophet since none of the other prophets made these claims?
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And if they say yes, then he attempts to bridge to the Bible And and and from there says well then if he's more than a prophet, let's find out what the
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Bible says about him and What I essentially argued in my paper was that the method is not It's not we shouldn't throw it out entirely.
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I don't think and Although Greece doesn't give a lot of attention to it in his book
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I think he probably should have given a lot more attention to a defense from act 17 When Paul is in Athens and he he quotes the pagan philosophers and then uses that to bridge to the gospel
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I think I think Greece is essentially doing the same thing What happens from that point?
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I found questionable and I argued in my paper that That the method is in need of reform rather than we just we should just trash it which
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I think is what the Cantor's are advocating but things like He says at the end of his book in an appendix because he's been challenged on it
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You know If if you've used this method is a is a former Muslim at this point if they say, okay
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I do realize these things about Jesus and I want to follow Jesus that Do they do they still hold to the authority of the
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Quran or do they hold the soul of scriptura Essentially and and what reason says it says well If you ask any of them, they'll say that their
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Bible is is better and that if they could only have one book The Bible So I wasn't really
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I was I was troubled by some of the things he didn't address You know, if you told him to throw their crawls in the trash can would they be willing to do that?
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He said that they hold on to them for evangelistic purposes Which yeah, which
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I have an issue with yeah, I think there are parts of it that need to be cleaned up Yeah Cleaned up.
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That's a that's a nice euphemism and it depends on what it means. Yeah. Yeah, exactly well, you know and I I I can understand a desire to utilize
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What's generally called common ground or some mechanism of opening up a dialogue
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The the problem is when you use as your first statement or as your first step something that in essence does not challenge the authority of a revelation that is
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Fundamentally opposed to the message you're seeking to communicate Can you leave yourself open to being accused of some level of dishonesty later on that is right?
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If you get through the system, you know Get through the talk a certain distance and then the person comes back and says no
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Wait a minute you you start off by asking me about what surah 3 says about Esau and then he's holy
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He knows the way heavens on so forth and then you use that as a stepping stone to get me to admit to other things
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But now you're coming around to tell me that what this same book says about Esau is wrong
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In surah 5 and surah 4 and surah 2 and so on so forth Aren't you contradicting what you've done before that I think becomes the most problematic element at least for someone who wants to be able to be
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Consistent, you know from from start to finish in their presentation of the gospel, right? And that's that's essentially what
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I tried to advocate I said, you know, I I guess what I argued for I said I said this is this is not bad in of itself
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It's a good method as long as we sit down with them and say, okay You know all truth is
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God's truth. You know, if the Quran says a rose is red then okay, that's that's true. Rose is red yes, but Can we sit down and specifically address this that that what
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I was communicating to you was true, but that I was not communicating Love for the Quran or something like that, right
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Brian. Could you I put you on hold over the break I want to I want to contrast that with the approach that I Illustrated in the in the videos that I posted on my blog this week
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Well, hold on just a second. Hold on a second and let's take our break and we'll be right back It's not an easy way it's a journey
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To the Sun What is dr.
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Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen but free a new cult secularism false prophecy scenarios
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No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called
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Calvinism He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant in his book the potter's freedom
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James White replies to dr. Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply It is a defense of the very principles upon which the
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Protestant Reformation was founded Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate
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James White masterfully counters the evidence against so -called Extreme Calvinism defines what the
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Reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the Reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture the potter's freedom a defense of the
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Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's Chosen but free you'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omen org
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Hello everyone. This is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program
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The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every
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Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses
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Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?
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We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well
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Support Alpha Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.
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Thank you The history of the Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of Exactly what doctrine does it pivot on?
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Single click there we're professionals around here. We make the big bucks All right, let's continue on with Brian here now
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I'm not sure if you got to see the videos on on my blog Brian I looked through I looked at one of them earlier this evening.
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Just the most recent one that you put up Yeah, that was a third part where I went through all the class that that sort of illustrates at least how
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I would see the Quran used in that context and that is it would seem to me that that he's right that We need to open a door of conversation
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But in my experience the door of conversation can be opened by a demonstration on our part
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That we have taken the time to listen to what they have to say because in 99 % of the situations they haven't taken the time to listen to what we have to say and if we've done that we've shown that level of concern for them then that can open the opportunity for them to listen to what we have to say and so In in a situation like that I can look at Ali class and I can contrast that What is said in in the third ayah of surah 112 where is said that to God neither begets nor is he begotten with the prophecy of Jesus' coming in Isaiah chapter 9 and that gives me an opportunity to introduce all sorts of things
34:26
It's a fact that this is written 1 ,300 years before Muhammad and that we have been able to demonstrate that Through the
34:36
Isaiah scroll and Dead Sea Scrolls that this is what was written that it wasn't changed
34:41
It wasn't altered anything like that. It passed down through 700 years We know that that's what would existed in the days of Muhammad and of course the
34:49
Quran itself says bring forth a book like the Quran or The Torah that people don't realize that that text is in there, too
34:56
And that would have been a part of the Old Testament scriptures that existed in that day It gives me an opportunity to say those things while transitioning into a presentation of who
35:07
Jesus is and I don't have to ever say Well, would you agree with these teachings from the
35:15
Quran and then use that as the as the transition? What I've done is I've demonstrated that I do
35:20
Care enough to have read their holy book and to in fact read it carefully and with some level of knowledge and Many people not all obviously but many people when someone takes the time to do that feel some level of obligation to at least
35:39
Listen to what the person has to say and that can be the the door opener at that point and you don't have to go
35:44
Back and apologize for it later on. Yeah, I know I got you on that one, didn't I? Right.
35:50
Well, yeah, and I don't think it should be our motivation. Do you know to get him? Right to trick him into the gospel, you know
35:57
Yeah, so I think that's and there's a lot of ways of doing that I mean there are a number of passages in the
36:03
Quran about Esau and there are a number of directions that one can go and certainly
36:10
There's there's numerous texts, you know when I talk about Surah 112 in that video clip the last one that I put up, you know, it talks about how
36:18
Allah is the eternal absolute and Allah is the one and only well, those are Almost paraphrases of texts in Isaiah and so you can say, you know if it weren't for this this addition of this idea of of Unitarianism and then that gives you an opportunity of even explaining and what
36:36
I did in that series that we recorded last week There were 12 programs in that series and in part of what
36:42
I was doing Was explaining the doctrine of the Trinity and I was explaining why
36:48
Christians do not commit shirk Because I mean you've got to explain that to a
36:53
Muslim right if they know anything at all if they've listened to the imams And have not fallen asleep within the first three minutes.
36:59
They you know, I mean seriously, they know that they understand We're mushrik. Those are the Christians are mushrik.
37:06
They are they they've committed shirk their coffer and and so That's just what they've been taught and for someone to raise that issue to them first and say and you know
37:19
You know why it is that that Christians do not commit shirk Here's why and they're left going
37:25
Wow, you know Obviously someone has at least prepared themselves to to speak intelligently to my my faith
37:30
So, you know, that's am I agreeing with Eric and Cantor here? That's what
37:36
I want to know Are you a spy? That's what I want to know When I called in rich asked me he said he said where are you
37:45
I said Liberty University he said what room He was then going to ask for your credit card and say if you
37:57
So anyways, well, that's that's interesting that that's that's going on there I was not aware of I'm aware of the controversy
38:04
But I wasn't aware that arrogant an email were were taking a stand against us. That's that's that's quite interesting.
38:10
Well, excellent Thank you, sir. No, thank you very much. And you have my call. You have a great holiday you too.
38:15
I got less Well, that was great I really do appreciate it put the call out for some calls because I need them today
38:24
Because I sort of walked in here. I even said in channel about an hour and a half ago. I said well Divine lines coming up.
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What am I gonna do today? Because what I thought about doing yesterday while I was writing was
38:36
Taking that Hoffer article and doing the whole thing on first Corinthians 3 and purgatory anything else It just I'm working on Arabic and you know what some other things just got to give
38:45
Sometimes I just don't have enough time to do those things and That's what I was gonna do. But hey, the callers are doing a great job today
38:53
Now I want to put a pressure on Mike from Long Island that the first two calls were really good today
38:58
But the pressure is on whether he is aware of it or not. So let's let's put him on the stage and talk with Mike I'm like Hi, dr.
39:06
White. How are you? I'm doing pretty good yet. You have to the pressure Well, I'm friends with Chris Arnson.
39:12
So give me some brownie points or either have you against me? Well, I'm I made I may cut you off right now.
39:18
I don't know Do you sing do you sing very funny parody songs? No, but I wrote him an email saying that I think he stole that song from from somebody.
39:27
I'm not sure. Oh I can guarantee you he did not I was I was actually around the first time he performed it.
39:34
So I'm sorry for you Greetings from North Shore Baptist.
39:41
Oh, excellent. Yes, and we're doing well there and I have a quick question I told rich it was on the subject of rebaptism
39:48
Yes the point the point is I have a friend who was baptized in the
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Episcopal Church when he was a baby and He he embraces the doctrines of grace
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We believe that he is a believer But he is reluctant to be baptized because he he's not convinced
40:05
From scripture that his first baptism was invalid now Before you answer he was actually at the debate between you and pastor
40:13
Shishko on Long Island And we both enjoyed it, but he came out not as a a committed pedo -baptist
40:20
But just really not convinced apparently heard a different debate than I did But regardless he so the direction that I told to go in would be to study any materials
40:30
He might have about the Episcopal Church, and I basically gave him two options I said that I would suppose although we don't know the hearts of men that the minister that performed the baptism may not have been a true believer in Christ and number two whether or not the
40:44
Episcopal Church believes like the Roman Catholic Church that he is Regenerated at that point.
40:50
I mean do you have any? Suggestions for me. Yeah, well The the
40:56
Episcopalian Church today is not the Episcopalian Church of five years ago
41:01
Let alone 30 years ago, and it's very difficult To to even get a bead on on what the
41:07
Episcopalian Church is today I mean look at someone like like like John Shelby Spong I mean obviously from a biblical perspective you look at Spongo this this man's not even in in the universe of Christianity and so But a lot of people would say it doesn't matter what
41:25
Spong's spiritual condition is because if you take a Consistently sacramental position the the state of grace of the person performing the sacrament is not actually relevant to the efficacy thereof
41:38
And that's that's called the ex opera operato perspective over against the ex opera operante perspective
41:45
Which did say that if you were baptized by a heretic or someone who was not truly the state of grace and your baptism quote -unquote didn't take
41:52
Now I'm assuming that this context here is in the context of this individual
41:59
Looking at at at fellowship in your church Yes, and in fact he did we have a new members class that we suggest that people take before they become members
42:08
And I question why he's he's not taking the class and he said well because I'm really not
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I'm not convicted that I need to be baptized you know again by immersion as a believer right and so that's really the issue
42:21
I mean we he you know again. He embraces the doctrines of grace not that that's the end all be all but that you know You know we believe that you know he knows the
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Lord, and you know he serves in the church in various ways but not as a member right and you know and I was given
42:35
I'm an elder at the church as well, and I was given the The blessing of discussing it with him.
42:40
He's very open to this no. He's he's a great guy He's very open to discussion, and he's not no I was I was laughing about him
42:46
I was laughing about who gave you that great blessing All over that personally so But you know he likes to well,
42:58
I'm not gonna speak on the airwaves about I understand well Yes, you and I could probably say some really funny things about Ed, but we won't do that right now
43:06
No, I love Ed and Ed knows that and I will just never ever forget watching
43:11
Ed do Elvis the first time I was there so anyway My goodness that is still one of the most amazing memories of my life, but anyway
43:21
We'll put that off to the side of the moment sure here's here's basically I'd say there there would be many many people who are listening to us right now who are cheering against you
43:29
In other words what they're saying is look He was baptized. It was a valid baptism
43:35
There's only one baptism in Scripture, so those are obviously the key question here is whether you know the the accusation even the terminology of Re -baptism assumes that the first baptism was
43:49
Christian baptism if you're going to fellowship from a reformed Baptist perspective from my church's perspective for example
43:55
We just had a baptismal service a couple of weeks ago And we had one woman who was baptized who was quite literally raised in our church she's never been to another church other than our church, and she was baptized as a young adult and and the other woman who was baptized is a
44:15
Brand -new member of the church, and she was baptized as an infant and it was her desire to experience baptism as a professing believer, and if you believe that baptism is an act of obedience and identification with Jesus Christ So that you do not want to have to look back upon something that you have no memory of But that you want this to be a testimony of one's union with Christ one's death burial and resurrection in Christ Then that to me is the key issue if that's what you see baptism as Then it isn't re -baptism because you didn't experience baptism in the first place
44:58
Now obviously I'm not one of those folks who thinks that baptism is what saves you
45:03
I have great fellowship with my Presbyterian brothers even though obviously I differ very strongly
45:09
I have been willing to defend my position But as I've said many times in both and all three of the debates have done that subject
45:15
I was approached to do it. I wasn't I'm not running around Chasing Presbyterians around saying let's let's debate the subject of baptism.
45:23
That's just not what I'm into but Clearly as I understand what baptism is in the
45:29
New Testament, and as I see it being practiced by the Apostles it is something That unites believers together and the only way that that the exhortations
45:40
That are found in Scripture based upon our baptism could really make any sense is two things if it is
45:46
Universal which my pedo -baptist brethren say see it's universal Yeah, it is everyone who's a member of the church has been baptized, but it's also something that you remember
45:54
It's something that you did purposefully. It's something that had meaning to you It's something that represent your union with Christ And I don't see it as something that we purposefully give to people who are unregenerate that we do not have any evidence
46:06
Have actually made a faith commitment to Jesus Christ How can it represent death burial resurrection with Jesus Christ if that hasn't even taken place yet?
46:15
And the person has no knowledge of sin and so on so forth Which is one of my primary concerns about the nature of quote -unquote covenant children and by the way just for your information on Next Tuesday the next dividing line at 11 a .m.
46:29
On next Tuesday, we're going to be joined by Alan Conner who has just put a book out with Reformed Baptist Academic Press called
46:36
Covenant children today physical or spiritual So in other words, we'll be discussing exactly what we're talking about right now
46:44
On Tuesday morning 11 o 'clock my time which right now is two hours off from you So it'd be one o 'clock in the afternoon your time
46:51
Alan Conner will be on and of course We'll be taking phone calls and stuff like that. And that book is available from reform our
46:57
BAP reform Baptist Academic Press. So That'll be coming up But for me, that's what
47:03
I would focus upon Mike is is the nature of what you believe baptism represents And the fact that because it represents a person's union with Jesus Christ That is only meaningful to a person who knows of that you
47:17
Jesus Christ And that's where did you hear my my debate with Greg Strawbridge a few weeks ago? No, no,
47:23
I didn't we did it's if you go back to early November in the blog archives
47:30
You will find a link to the dividing line. It was a Thursday night dividing line. It was about a little over two hour
47:37
Well, right. I'm sorry. I did I did I remember I made a point because I can't figure out the times, you know Cuz she always complained that we change our clock
47:42
I heard the archive. I heard it another day. Yes, I did.
47:48
I did. I'm sorry Okay, and you'll hear you heard that and Not quite as much in the debate with Bill Shishko the concern of what is what is the nature of covenant children?
47:59
What is the nature of the New Covenant? What does it mean to give a sign that specifically represents our union with Christ individuals who as as Presbyterians will admit?
48:10
Many of the of the infants they baptize grow up and they are reprobates So what does it mean and that led them to the discussion of well?
48:17
That means that they are they are actually a New Covenant and therefore Jesus mediates wrath to them and so on and so forth and and that's that's
48:25
Obviously for me one of the most problematic elements of it So right, that's that's what I'd focus on and and go from there but we we have the same perspective as far as The nature of baptism and and I've got to admit
48:38
I understand Why certain people today are basically making?
48:43
Baptism whether adult baptism or infant baptism just sort of a throw your hands up in the air and say whatever you want to do type of a situation
48:50
I Disagree, I don't think that shows a sufficient Confidence in the teaching of the
48:58
New Testament on the nature of baptism on either side I mean, I'd rather have a real committed
49:03
Presbyterian for example to say hey You know here's where I'm coming from and I believe the Word of God says this sort of like me and Bill Shishko We can have a meaningful
49:12
Conversation that people can follow and go and sort of weigh both sides once you jump in the middle and say well
49:17
You know in our church, you can just do whatever you want. You can go. Well, we'll basically meet your needs
49:23
Either direction I just go. Whoa, that's uh, are we gonna what else are we gonna do that on? You know, can we do that on the
49:29
Lord's Supper? Can we do that on justification? You know, what else can we do? Right. Well, you're familiar with our church
49:35
So, I mean, that's why I wanted to reach out to him because we will not like, you know Allow somebody to be a member if they you know, if they don't see eye -to -eye on that I mean they can attend, you know, they can more sure with us, right?
49:46
Oh, yeah, I appreciate your your advice and Lord willing. Maybe I'll try call him heck again and let you know what happened
49:52
Okay, I appreciate it. And you know, I haven't been to North Shore in a long long time
49:59
Right. Well last time you were there to be honest I had just recently purchased the early church fathers like 30 like a million volume set and you kind of wasted my money on it
50:10
No, wait a minute not
50:17
I'd like to know the context of that Was I saying that it's available electronically and therefore probably a little less expensively
50:32
And it was actually a gift so I didn't I didn't buy it and I was asking you if this comes sort of handbook Yeah, and you know and you know to see
50:42
I use my hardback set But what I do is I use the edition of it that's either online or that I have in my computer as its index
50:53
Because the the indices while they weren't bad Still to do a meaningful search across multiple volumes is is next to impossible
51:01
That's the advantage of having the electronic version is that then you can go and and if you like to hold a book in your hand
51:08
You know to you know, you can slap somebody with it or something like that It gives you a feeling like you're doing a real scholarship like that.
51:15
Great. That's the way it looks great on the bookshelf. I mean Well, but but you see but if you put up higher then you have pictures taken in front of it
51:25
You look like a you know, like a million bucks. It's great. Well, we got Calvin up there Alright, thanks
51:39
Mike See I thought he was gonna say we just purchased this this volume set and we can't afford to bring you out now
51:47
I that's right. Yeah. Well that that I'd serve us sound like he was saying there for a second Actually what he was saying was they don't want me back again because I'm a mean old nasty
51:56
Calvinist That's what it is. You gotta stop bursting people's bubbles I'm it.
52:07
No. Hey if someone gives you the 38 volumes of the Erdman set as a gift, that's that's wonderful But it's probably yeah, but it's not exactly a good idea to ask him, you know, did did they give you the receipt?
52:19
You know, yeah Yeah, because then I can buy the electronic version search it faster
52:25
Cuz I mean if you're just gonna sit around and you want to read Augustin, that's great That that's fine that I still find it easier to read a printed page then even even this this screen in front of me which my laptop has the
52:39
Best video screen of any screen I've ever seen I'd still rather read a printed page and it's easier
52:45
You know, it's hard to carry this thing around But for the majority of folks you're trying to find references you're trying to look stuff up You're trying to find not just what one particular person said
52:56
But you want to find out what everybody said who addressed an issue or addressed a text or if you are looking at Augustin You want to be able to search across?
53:06
How many volumes is a 14? I think there's 14 volumes in that and that's not anywhere near all of Augustin's writings
53:12
That's the other problem is that there's a whole lot more that is is still being translated in fact,
53:19
I saw I saw David King and channel mentioning that Augustin's work on the unity of the church which has been cited forever
53:28
But only in pieces is finally due to be published in in the early part of 2008 in full
53:36
English translation But he also indicated that I had that had been delayed twice already anyways, so who knows maybe it won't be but that's its current schedule
53:44
There's still a bunch of stuff. I mean if you want origin, oh my goodness That what is in the
53:50
Erdman set or now I guess it's called the Hendrickson set because Hendrickson publishes it That particular
54:00
Writer I don't think all of his stuff will ever be available in English. There's so much of it
54:07
That's what's what's scary about people who will make such confident proclamations, you know
54:13
You've you've heard me say many times. There's only one doctrine that with with a level of confidence I can say was universal amongst the
54:21
Orthodox Christian writers the first few centuries that was monotheism Because there's such a wide variety of material and even then there are certain writers some of the major writers that we don't even have
54:33
Access in the English language anyway, the the Latin is available and that's why people used to learn
54:39
Latin all the time Or Greek for the Greek speaking and Greek writing early fathers, but a lot of stuff still isn't even available in English translation and so to to be so Confident these some of these folks that I know
54:51
Could not make their way through a Greek sentence their life depended on it will make these wonderfully, you know confident proclamations
54:58
And and they're going on on Second third fourth fifth hand kind of information and that's why we have to be just a little bit careful about things like that so but I feel very very bad and depressed now that I made
55:13
Mike feel very very bad and depressed about his gift and and I just have to remind myself
55:19
I need to be a much nicer person and even if someone has blown their money right and left
55:24
I shouldn't bother to tell them So in other words be dishonest when people ask you questions like that, they'll like you better So I'm just I was afraid to come back, you know, they're gonna go.
55:37
Hey, you know, I got this thing But you know, I can't really search for anything and you could have answered like Mitt Romney answered about the
55:46
Lucifer thing it was you know, it's time for you people to move on and stop attacking my religion. Okay?
55:51
Yeah there there we go And you know, I by the way what I learned last night when
55:57
I was on the program in Detroit Was and I haven't didn't take time today to look at this but Hugh Hewitt on his blog had likened
56:07
Asking this question of Mormons to ask to saying to the Jews Asking Jews if they're responsible for killing
56:15
Jesus and there was one other there is another Muslims No, was it something about Muslims what was it basically the essence of it was that you are engaging an unfair
56:30
Misrepresentational adhominem attack and I'm gonna need to take some time to look at what you know
56:37
I know that Hugh Hewitt is a big Mitt Romney fan fine, whatever, but he's also a PCA elder and Or PC USA elder.
56:45
I'm not sure which that's a big difference. I'm well aware of that And I just Especially on this subject like I said on the program yesterday in Detroit it has just illustrated a massive level of Non -discernment on the part of people who should have
57:08
Discerned yes, they should be able to at least get the facts right on Mormonism It's not like this stuff is hidden away in a closet someplace, you know, it doesn't take forever
57:19
To figure out hmm general authorities certain kinds of publications. Those are what's representative of church theology third church teachings
57:28
Here's what's not as representative blah blah blah But it just seems like a lot of people
57:33
Don't want to go there or they just want to believe what they want to believe so they can continue to support the particular candidate
57:38
They want to support whether they are for or against Mitt Romney. So it's on both sides. You were mentioning
57:43
Well, in fact, I I oh, yeah, you mentioned here locally when very young was going after the subject
57:49
Oh some of the some of the calls coming in were so wacky and so insane
57:55
You wonder where these people got this stuff. I mean the the anti Mormon stuff was really silly
58:01
So it's it's a shame to listen to all that stuff But that's what's out there. And as I said next
58:08
Tuesday, I'm gonna have a guest with me by name Alan Connor He's written a book called covenant children today physical or spiritual put out by Reformed Baptist academic press
58:18
Those are the folks same same group of folks that put out the Reformed Baptist theological review that I've written for a number of times
58:24
And so he's going to be with us on Tuesday morning taking your phone calls. And so we'll see you down the buying line
58:30
Thanks a lot. God bless We need
59:01
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