Signing of the Augsburg Accord on Justification

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Why the “agreement” made on Justification between liberal Lutherans and liberal Catholics is misleading. Ambiguous language is used to disguise crucial theological differences, and it still does not actually resolve the issue. Unity must be based on truth, not at the expense of truth. Dr. White takes a call from a young, fiery Catholic.

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Be diligent to present yourself approved to God a worker who does not need to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth
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Alpha and Omega ministries presents the dividing line radio broadcast The Apostle Peter commanded all
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Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence
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Your host is dr. James White director of Alpha and Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church If you'd like to talk with dr.
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White, you can call now by dialing 602 -274 -1360. That's 602 -274 -1360
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Or if you're out of the Metro Phoenix dialing area, it's 1 -888 -550 -1360
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That's 1 -888 -550 -1360 and now with today's topic.
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Here's James White Well, was it a great day in bringing about Understanding between Catholics and Lutherans or was it a betrayal of the gospel?
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That is the subject today on the dividing line. We're talking about the Augsburg Accord The statement regarding the signing of the
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Joint Declaration of the Doctrine of Justification October 31st 1999 in Augsburg Germany we mentioned it briefly last week as we talked about Reformation Day But this week we talked about the
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Catholic Lutheran Accord and I want to immediately and forthwith point out
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That it is an accord between Catholics and a certain segment of Lutherans It is not an accord between all
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Catholics and all Lutherans There are many Lutherans who have identified this accord as a betrayal of the gospel
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In fact, I look at a statement released by the office of the president of the
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Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod in St. Louis, Missouri on October 15th of 1999 and it is entitled a betrayal of the gospel and The president of the
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Missouri Synod says in truth The Joint Declaration is an ambiguous statement whose careful wording makes it possible for the
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Pope's representatives to sign it without changing Retracting or correcting anything that has been taught by the
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Roman Catholic Church since the time of the Council of Trent in the 16th century and I would agree very much with the president of the
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Missouri Synod Lutherans that that's exactly what this document is in point of fact
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A lot of people have heard about the document. I've gotten a lot of emails a lot of people going Well, you're gonna talk about this.
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Well, that's what we're gonna do today on the dividing line. I have read the document I have it here in front of me along with a number of other things there are lots of Attached notes you might say
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That end up making it exceptionally complex and very difficult to follow at times to be perfectly honest with you
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And it is fascinating to read some of the Roman Catholic Commentary on the subject of the document much of the
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Roman Catholic commentary and that is even official commentary from the Roman Catholic Church Indicates that while there has been a signing that says well there has been substantial movement and agreement
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In reality, this isn't any type of binding dogmatic type of of doctrinal statement
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For example, I I read the following at the same time. This joint declaration has limits
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It is one important step forward But it does not pretend to resolve all the issues that Lutherans and Catholics need to face together on their pilgrimage out of Separation and toward full visible unity the joint declaration itself speaks of questions of varying importance which need further
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Clarification now it is interesting. It is always the purpose of Rome in Ecumenical dialogue to move toward unity
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But you need to realize it is has to be a unity Based upon the acceptance of the Roman Catholic Church as the mother of all churches
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That is always the focus of ecumenical dialogue It is always the focus to find new ways of saying old things so as to make people think we actually agree together
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Keep that in mind as we look at these things In that same article from the
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Roman Catholic side. It says under the title declaration It is clearly stated that quote a considerable agreement has been reached and quote on a question that has been for centuries.
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So controversial Indeed, it is rightly stated that there is a consensus in fundamental truths the doctrine of justification
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At the same time the Catholic Church is of the opinion that we cannot yet speak of a consensus such as to eliminate every difference between Catholics and Lutherans and the understanding of Justification as a matter of fact the joint declaration itself refers to some of these differences and then it goes on to talk about how it sees some of the assertions made even in this declaration to be
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Contradictory to one another and even at one point says we cannot see how a certain
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Condemnation from the Council of Trent does not apply to Lutheran positions. So what is this all about?
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Well I'll tell you what it's all about What you have going on here are liberal
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Roman Catholics agreeing with liberal Lutherans That you can use words in different ways and make it sound like we can all hold hands and sing kumbaya together
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That is unfortunately what's going on and those of you who heard Marty Minto's program this past week on Wednesday evening heard a discussion of this topic and a guest came in and The guest dr.
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Eppinger as I believe was his name is the head of the ecumenical council here in Arizona And he was talking about a great gathering that they're planning where we're going to simply lift up Jesus and over and over again
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Marty, I think did a very good job in asking some very Poignant questions some straightforward questions in regards to what does it mean to lift up Jesus?
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I did call in as is my want in fact those of you taking notes a little program note here
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I am scheduled to be with Marty Minto on straight talk live from 5 to 7 on Tuesday afternoon of this week with mr.
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Kinney to Readdress the issue of the King James only controversy the
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King James only controversy this Tuesday afternoon 5 o 'clock is the current schedule
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Please don't shoot me if that gets changed as things on radio change rather quickly depending on what's going on but if you're interested in the
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King James only controversy, there should be a a Two -hour program on that and if there is a change on that we can let you know as to What time it'll be on our web page and for those of you listening by the
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Internet? We not only greet you, but we also let you know that on our web page at www .aomin
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.org there is an Arizona clock it is probably the greatest accomplishment of Rich Pierce's life he's very very very proud of the
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Arizona clock and You can look at the Arizona clock to know what time it is here because we in Arizona do not fall leap
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Spring or do anything else their clocks. We just let them sit there on the table and run Those of you in other parts of the nation you like to play with your clocks and move them back and forward and leap and Fall and do stuff like that We don't we just let them run one of the reasons is that during the summer it is very very very difficult to go to Sleep when the
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Sun is still up at 10 o 'clock at night, and it's 107 degrees outside So that's one of the reasons we don't bother with that silly kind of stuff
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But anyways look at the website to see what time the program will be on but anyways going back to the point
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That was a long a long little Detour there dr. Eppinger was on the the program
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And I called in and I pointed out that you cannot lift up Christ When you show disrespect to his gospel
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It sounds so nice To say well, we just want to gather together as fellow
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Christians and lift up the Lord and we want to lay aside these doctrinal differences
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Well, I can understand certain doctrinal differences that you'd be willing to lay aside. I can understand certain things.
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I mean Within the fellowship of a church. I think it's perfectly fine to have differences for example on specific issues of eschatology maybe
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There are different there there are those things that are called the adi offer up the things that are indifferent the things that do not define the gospel
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But unfortunately, it seems that for the ecumenical council here in Arizona The doctrine of justification as well as those things that does not define the gospel
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It does not define the Christian faith And so I would submit to you that is absolutely impossible to lift up Jesus Christ When you say well what we believe about justification really doesn't matter if you believe that a man is justified by baptism and then he can commit mortal sins and the mortal sins destroy the grace of justification and therefore the individual has to be
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Rejustified by going through the sacrament of penance and we have these sacraments that mediate grace to the sinner and these sacraments are under the
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Control of the church. And so in essence the church becomes very important in mediating grace to us and that's one view
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But it really doesn't matter if you believe that or if you believe that a person clings only to Christ And that this grace is not something that's mediated by the church
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But is but is something that is directly between the Savior and the sinner those things just don't matter
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Is what we are being told in essence what we're being told by the ecumenical council in Arizona is that the
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Reformation made no difference the Reformation was a big mistake and I would imagine that if they were to create a new can of scripture the book of Galatians would be conspicuous by its absence
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From the canon the New Testament canon of the ecumenical council Why do
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I say that? Well? If you have taken the time to consider the book of Galatians, I'd like to share just a few verses with you
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I think it'd be a good basis for our discussion of this accord that has been signed the
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Apostle Paul writing in the second chapter of Galatians after in the first having anathematized that is
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Cursed placed under the very curse of God those who would preach any other gospel than his not exactly an ecumenical attitude
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I would point out Said then after an interval of 14 years. I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas taking
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Titus along also It was because of revelation that I went up and I submitted to them the gospel which
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I preached among the Gentiles But I did so in private to those who were of reputation for fear that I might be running or had run in vain
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But not even Titus who was with me though. He was a Greek was compelled to be circumcised But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in who had sneaked in to spy out our
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Liberty Which we have in Christ Jesus in order to bring us into bondage But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour so that the truth of the gospel would remain
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With you listen to what he says I go up to Jerusalem Titus who's with me? Who's a Greek?
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He's not compelled to be circumcised that the the Apostles did not add this element of circumcision that the
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Jewish The Judaizers in Galatia are adding to the gospel and he talks about false brethren who had snuck into the fellowship
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They had snuck in to spy out our Liberty which we have in Christ Jesus Why in order to bring us into bondage now again, this is not ecumenical language
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This is not language. That is is something that would indicate to us that Paul is trying to Get along with everybody and make everything real nice and easy for everybody notice what he says in verse 5
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But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour Why so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you?
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So that the truth of the gospel would remain with you There is a truth of the gospel and when
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I called in I asked is there a truth of the gospel Is there a true gospel and a false gospel and how do we determine what the difference is?
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of course after my phone call Marty asked a very direct question and that was if the
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Metropolitan Church the Openly homosexual church in the valley were to contact you and want to be a part of this ecumenical celebration
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Would you allow them and very very easily and very very simply he said well, of course, we would allow them so obviously for the ecumenical council the deciding factor the source of Revelatory truth is not the
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Bible The Bible is not the final authority. It is not the inspired authority it may be a nice guidebook, but what it says simply cannot be taken at face value and Therefore, what can you say?
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but there is a true gospel as Paul said here and We if we are going to follow the apostolic example cannot yield for even a moment why
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So that the truth of the gospel will remain the truth of the gospel is our greatest possession
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It must be our ultimate priority in this area We cannot lightly sit back and say the truth of the gospel is not important Unfortunately, I think the new accord that has been signed not only does it not
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Indicate any change on Rome's position It is specifically written so as to allow them to continue to understand things in a way utterly different than what the
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Reformers did But it likewise I think will foster further deception on the part of people thinking that in point of fact you can have ecumenical dialogue with Rome and The two sides simply come together in a common agreement.
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No, what happens is you find ways of expressing Roman Catholic theology in a way that Sounds like we're in agreement, but in reality it is not we'd like to hear what you have to say possibly you've had the opportunity of reading the
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The agreement maybe you didn't maybe you heard the program on Wednesday evening You'd like to comment on that our phone lines are open here locally at 602 274 1360 if you're listening outside the
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Phoenix dialing area on Kpxq or if you're listening on the internet then a triple eight five five zero thirteen sixty one triple eight five five zero 1360 the phone lines are open now.
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We'll begin taking your calls Don't wait, please until quarter till three because then we don't have time to really talk with you
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Give us a ring now If you have some comments that you'd like to make about this issue of ecumenical dialogue now back to Galatians chapter 2 notice
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What happens later in the chapter? But when Cephas came to Antioch I opposed him to his face because he stood condemned
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For prior to the coming of certain men from James he used to eat with the Gentiles But when they came he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof fearing the party the circumcision
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The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy
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But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel
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I said to Cephas in the presence of all if you being a Jew live like the Gentiles and not like the
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Jews How is it you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews you see what happens here? Paul recognizes that there is an implicit compromise of the gospel taking place there in Antioch When Peter and even
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Barnabas withdraw from table fellowship with the Gentiles They won't sit down and eat with the Gentiles anymore because those
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Gentiles are not circumcised. They're not a part of the quote -unquote covenant Then Paul recognizes that this is the beginning of a division in the church
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And now we have people who are more justified than other people and Paul recognizes that is a compromise of the gospel itself and so He confronts
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Peter in front of everybody not taking him aside and doing it privately But in front of everybody he takes him aside, and he says
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Peter So that everyone can hear it you live like a Gentile Even though you're a
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Jew and I'm sure the folks from James and Jerusalem thought that was most interesting and Paul wasn't or Peter was Undoubtedly embarrassed by that but the point is
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Peter you need to realize something Why are you trying to force Gentiles to live like Jews when you don't even live like a
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Jew? We are justified he goes on to say by faith in Christ Just as the Gentile is that is the only way of salvation before God.
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That's all there is to it Peter Now again was Paul being ecumenical and what should be our standard?
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Do not underestimate my friends the the force of our society The fact that those who would in essence cause us to abandon the gospel do not do so Normally by being mean nasty and horrible people
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Instead they sound very nice. They use our language. They talk about loving Jesus Sometimes they won't even they won't even raise their voice sometimes they'll just be very calm and quiet and and Well, he did we just need to love
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Jesus and raise up Jesus and that sounds wonderful and sadly for people in our society today
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Who have not been taught to think critically that carries the day? Oh, yeah, let's just love Jesus Well, what does that mean my friends?
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What does it mean to love Jesus? What if we don't speak his truth
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That are we showing love for Jesus? For example to keep our mouths shut when the
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Jehovah's Witnesses go around and say it Jesus is Michael the archangel the first and greatest of God's creations
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Is that love for Jesus to allow lies to be told about him? Is it love for Jesus to to not?
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Oppose the Mormons when they say that Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer one God amongst many many gods
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Is that how we show love for God when we are not concerned about his truth? Do we lift up Jesus?
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When we ignore the fact that he himself said that anyone who is ashamed of him and his gospel
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That person Jesus himself will be ashamed of Jesus attaches the gospel to himself.
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You cannot separate the two and Yet we're being told. Oh, let's just put our hands together and let's lift up Jesus Well, how do you lift him up if you don't preach his gospel?
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How do you lift him up if you are implicitly denying that what he taught was truth, I don't understand it
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I don't think anybody can and I submit to you. It is not a lifting up of Jesus It is not an exaltation of Jesus To get together and say let's bury these differences and let's just all be one
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What kind of unity do we want my friends? People talk about unity all the time
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We pray about unity in our church, we pray that God will give us unity we recognize that it is a wonderful blessing from God when
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God's people live in unity with one another and Their entire passages of Scripture I'm writing an article right now for the next
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CRI journal that is on my favorite passage of Scripture in all the Bible Philippians chapter 2 and in that particular passage
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Philippians 2 5 through 11 that great passage about Jesus Christ is actually a sermon illustration that is meant to demonstrate how it is that we can live in unity in the body of Christ and That is we must live in humility of mind and serve one another and Jesus showed us how that is to be
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So the New Testament is filled With these exhortations to unity, but it is a unity based upon truth
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It is never a unity that is to be obtained at the expense of truth and I am tired of Christians feeling like somehow they are less loving
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Somehow they are less kind Because the world has convinced us that to be loving means that you no longer are concerned about truth
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We don't live that way as Parents we do not live we do not show love for our children by ignoring the truth
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We don't show love for them by noticing for example in them a sign of of an impending disease
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That they're getting sick that there's something happening to them But because of some fear of offending them, we won't take them to the doctor or tell them what's really going on with them
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That's not love We recognize that in human relations, but when it comes to theology when it comes to the church
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We've allowed the society to tell us well If you're really loving Then you won't talk about issues like this
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If you're really loving then your first and greatest concern about somebody will be their self -esteem well, you will fear offending them and Yet the proclamation of the gospel in the
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New Testament is said to be offensive to the natural man It is a stone of stumbling a rock of offense
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But we don't want that anymore We don't want people to be offended.
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We want people to simply like us well my friends you have to decide what
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Christian love really is and I would say to the ecumenical council in Arizona and anyone who is considering participation in this upcoming event anyone who would
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Rejoice in the signing of this accord in Augsburg. I would ask you.
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How do you define love? Define Christian love for me outside of the use of the words
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Christian truth Show me where the Apostles act as the ecumenical individuals in our day act
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Show me where the Apostles Will lay aside truth to create some fictional unity
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Fictional unity not unity based on truth. I Know what it's like to experience unity based on truth.
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I have a wonderful opportunity of traveling and I'm not a good traveler But I've had the opportunity of traveling around the
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United States I think the next time I'm gonna be out of town will be going Lord willing to San Antonio soon to Some Reformed Baptist churches there
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I'm sorry, January. I'm gonna be back in doing a youth retreat for Hope Reform Baptist Church, you know on Long Island pastor
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Jensen the folks back there I'm gonna be doing a youth retreat based on a new book that just came out by the way
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Called what's with the mutant in the microscope and myself and Kevin Johnson This is the second in the youth series we've done and we're gonna be doing a youth retreat back there but I get the opportunity of going to New York and to Illinois and to Texas and California and opportunities of Sharing with like -minded brothers and sisters with whom
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I have real unity Real unity because what we teach and what we preach is the same
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We answer the questions of the world in the same way we preach the same gospel in the same message and there is no unity like a unity based upon truth and I submit to you that the
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Holy Spirit of God Who is our common possession which binds Christians together around this world that the
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Holy Spirit of God is described in Scripture as the spirit of truth and The Holy Spirit of God does not rejoice in untruth
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Love does not rejoice in untruth, but rejoices in truth as we're told in 1st
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Corinthians chapter 13 So if we are truly loving Then we will love his truth as well
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Well, am I saying then that those who've signed this accord are in essence Unloving Yes, I am
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Yes, I am Not in the sense that these individuals might not be nice folks.
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They might be great folks to have living next door They might be nice folks to to go the movies with except maybe they'll make a code
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But they might be all sorts of nice things They might help you to to shovel out your driveway when it snows
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Well not here in Phoenix, but you know for people back east listening on the on the internet They might be very nice folks, but to invest years of effort to try to find a way
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To make the Roman Catholic system and the biblical teaching of justification into one
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Is not only a waste of years a waste of money and a waste of time
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It requires an active desire. I Would submit to undercut truth itself
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To make it so ambiguous and so confused that you can take a system
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That continues to teach indulgences That continues to teach that by activities that you undertake you can earn merit from God from the thesaurus meritorium the treasury of merit in the form of an indulgence and Therefore get time out of purgatory
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That place of cleansing before you enter into the presence of God if you happen to die in a state of grace to try to take a system like that and Wrench words twist words contort words so that it sounds like on Some issues we're saying the same thing
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What what could motivate that? What could motivate that well? I honestly don't understand.
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What could motivate that but there are those who are doing it and It is understandable at least that these are primarily liberal
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Lutherans and liberal Roman Catholics that are doing these things For those of you who'd like to read the entire
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Joint declaration of doctrine or justification by the way, it is available on the internet at www .justification
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.org www .justification .org It's actually a
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German site But that's where you will find the text and a number of other texts that I would
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Especially refer to you Including one entitled the presentation of the
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Vatican sala stampa. Whatever that is of his eminence Edward Idris Cardinal Cassidy President of the
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Pontifical Council for promoting Christian unity 25 June 1998 this in essence has some of the caveats
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That Rome has attached to this saying well. Yeah, this is a joint declaration, but We've still got a lot of differences and if even the liberal
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Lutherans Can't get to the point where they still don't have a lot of differences. What does that tell you?
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I think it tells you a lot. Our phone lines are open. We have one person online It would be nice to have some other folks online
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One triple eight five five zero thirteen sixty if you're outside the Phoenix dialing area in the
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Phoenix dialing area 602 274 1360 we'll be taking your phone calls your discussion right after this
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You 28 minutes before the hour here on the dividing line this beautiful Saturday afternoon in sunny and still sadly
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Warm Phoenix, Arizona. I am Admitting that I am tired of the heat. I am tired of the blue skies.
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I'd like some clouds. I'd like some rain I'd like to be able to wear a sweater Something along those lines, but It's not happening yet.
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Unfortunately, I bet it's a little bit cooler somewhere else maybe maybe somewhere like Like England and that's where Martin is joining us and Martin.
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Are you finally getting to listen to us live now? I am James. It's a couple of seconds delayed behind you actually saying it but I'm listening to you live
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Well, that's good now, you know exactly where where we're going and you don't have to call in 20 minutes early just to get the context
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That's right. Yeah. Yeah, so did you go over to Augsburg Germany and hold a sign or anything like that? No No.
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Oh, well, I thought you know real close over there. It's all sort of Europe as far as we're concerned. Yeah So what's what are they saying about this in England?
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Well, I haven't heard Terry much about it it I Know I Can hear where you're coming from in a lot of ways because I was
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I don't know Rich told you a couple of weeks ago I will Man a bit about week a half ago I was talking to him because of some some strange things going on in the church that I'm currently attending which is forcing me to Sort of pack my bags and say thanks, but no, thanks
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And I was saying it in England. It's very very difficult to find churches that are basically Orthodox Because most of them are compromising in some way or the other
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And it's amazing that the reactions of people, you know, just especially young people who were just saying well, it's not important, you know
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I mean, okay, you know, I mean you probably heard I don't think I read America. We have over here. They call the alpha course Yes, I believe so and you know people are saying oh, well, you know, that's okay.
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It's not it's not a big deal It's you know, okay It's like the ecumenical and it's you know, full of you know, charismatics and all the rest of it
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But yeah, that's okay who cares Nikki? Well, you know, where do you draw the line with saying or something is important or something isn't important people?
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You know things are essential are people are saying what's that not a century doesn't matter Yeah, right, you know, it seems to be a cultural thing
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I mean it seems that in certainly that's direction our culture is headed as well Yeah, there seems especially in Europe to have been such a deep impact in the educational system
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That the idea of objective truth is is almost laughable in most
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European countries the idea that there is a Divinely revealed truth that is inalterable, which certainly was once a part of The heritage of your nation and ours as well
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That that is that is considered I think laughable by the large portion of the current the current generation
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And so there's there is no standard By which these things can be judged and I think in most
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Churches and certainly England is a is a religious nation simply because you have so many churches You've been around a lot longer than we have but there's a church all over the place you can't avoid the role that the church has played in your history, but sadly, you look at your state church there and and it is it is
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Well, the only term that I can use very kindly and I and I hope that I don't get extradited and charges for this is apostate
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Yeah, I would totally agree with that statement I mean, it's so hard in England to I mean you say that the
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England sort of, you know, so religious it's it's It's awful. I mean, you know, I mean, I mean,
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I Not too many English people listening to this. I probably get strung up. They said, you know spirituality here is awful
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Yeah, it really really is and you know, there is no such thing as or very very few
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Orthodox You know Christian churches as such nearly all of them are bought into some form ecumenical ism
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And it's considering the heritage and the history of England, you know with the reformers that you know, what you know
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What is reminded of? Latimer and Ridley. Oh, yes. No, I need to take take
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Play the man I hope this day that we shall we shall in England light a fire that should never go out
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Commented, you know, it's a barely a burning ember nowadays in England. That's true Well the thing we need to be thankful that it can flame up not because of anything we do because of what
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God could be Pleased to do through us and we certainly need to continue to pray for that But it's it's a it's a difficult thing for for all of us
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I think in in modern culture whether English or American because we we pray that God would bring revival
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Pray that God would be pleased to allow biblical preaching to again again once be heard from the the pulpits
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But the same time we recognize that's a blessing and neither nation is worthy of this blessing
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We have blood upon our hands. We we we serve self rather than God and There is no reason that we can pray for blessings upon these nations outside of God's mercy and grace.
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There's nothing else We're certainly not deserving of it in any way shape or form It surprises me how quickly
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People want to sort of cross the tie, but I mean, I don't know if you know you mentioned before that I you know,
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I'm an I used to be you know for many years for 20 odd years a Roman Catholic and What's turn around?
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Oh, well, you all basically saying I can stand here having experienced it. No, no, no
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No, the the entire focus of the gospel is vastly different. That's what makes this the statement signed in Augsburg so tremendously
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Troubling is is that certainly I understand how liberal Lutherans Could say the things they say and yet there are times when
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I read their document Were there still saying the things that the old Bible -believing Lutherans did and so it it's it's sort of like a transition period where you're still hearing elements of truth and yet mixture with such error and it's
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It's very sad to see and very sad to watch But given that it has at least over here gotten a lot of press a lot of discussion
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That's one of the reasons we needed to address it today. So well Martin keep working for the Lord back there.
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I know that There is I don't know if there's a listing of churches in in England But I think there is there is either yet There's a few reformed as I think in the in the whole of a while I say the whole of Berlin and there are three reformed churches, which is very sad weeks in the
35:07
England But the burning of the second city in England, I don't know where Kettering is Yeah, but I know that there's a very small work there that we get
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Letters from that we we pray for them on Wednesday evenings and our services here So I guess we should to count ourselves tremendously blessed that we have a couple of different Reformed churches here in our valley and we don't have to drive awfully far to get to them
35:30
So yeah, we should keep that in mind I do recall however that the Kettering Church said that right now they have a grand total of six members so We we have about 50.
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So we feel we feel like we're a significant. We're a super church Well, keep it keep working for the
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Lord over there Martin, thanks for participating god bless god bless And now we go to the second of our regular special guests here on the dividing line
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Unpaid and unsolicited but always welcome. Hello Dennis You know, it's funny
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Dennis I walk in and The monitor is still on from last night. And it was when
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I believe Marty had Dr. Beckwith and Greg coke alarm and there's only one name left up on the on the message board from last night and guess who's it?
36:20
Yeah, it said Dennis and Phoenix and I said the the the Always there Dennis.
36:26
It's it's fascinating Well, you're getting close
36:36
Atlantic calls, I mean heaven knows I defer to enough cell phones That's true
36:43
Yes, it is Yes, he can he can hear you
36:50
Ten seconds after you actually say it but yeah, it's live and I'm hoping that in the next few weeks
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We're gonna start seeing a little more participation by folks outside the Phoenix area once they start realizing Of course
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Saturday afternoons are not easy to get people near their computers and near a radio, but I have oh good question.
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I think it was seven be about nine o 'clock at night, I think Well, it's seven hours difference from Greenwich meantime.
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That's all I know. But anyways, that's not why He's talking about tonight, yeah, okay
37:30
Right, all righty, was that what you wanted to say? Oh, well one of many things Go ahead then.
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Anyway, I Wanted to get this on in math Sunday. I didn't get on I got on the second hour another subject.
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You got to hear it I didn't get it on with just on Marty show, but I'll get on with the show some
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I wrote the 19th of last month goes Unfaithful children of the Reformation you speak as if true faith can find a home in Rome So you trample the truth in the mud you should wash your mouth out with Protestant martyrs blood
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Roman Catholicism is a false religion decaying in doctrine over centuries, but the gospel doesn't change
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Wow And the author of that might start the person's name might start with a
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D. That's me. All righty. Well, that's quite true and I do shudder to think what the
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Reformers and their children would think of the way that we handle the
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The treasure that has been entrusted to us and that indeed was purchased with martyrs blood
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Today people would say well, that's a that's just terrible that things like that happened. We shouldn't be concerned about such things
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We need to bury the past But the question is why did they do what they did and if they did it because it was an issue of truth and because It was an issue of how we have peace with God Those things don't change now, of course in our society we think the truth does change
38:57
We think that we're wiser than they were we're smarter than they were We can get along where they couldn't simply because we have computers to cell phones and technology that doesn't change anything in fact,
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I'd submit to you that in many ways that makes us more shallow than they were in the way that we think and So I think it is quite true to refer to them as the unfaithful
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Children of the Reformation but to be perfectly honest with you Dennis as you know, I believe that especially on the central doctrines of The gospel and especially on the concept of God's sovereignty that the vast majority of those who call themselves
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Protestants today are unfaithful children of the Reformation. They they swam the Tiber a long time ago on that issue
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So it shouldn't be overly surprising in light of that that many would be willing to To sign on to a document a document like this as well
39:48
Let's talk about blood, you know Cain killed Abel, but his blood cried out. I believe those Protestant martyrs blood is crying out well,
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God certainly remembers his faithful servants and he certainly remembers those who give their life in service to him and We in the
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United States have not been called to suffer to the point of blood at least in the majority of Situations and so it is it is very easy for us to sit in ivory palaces and talk about splitting doctrinal hairs but it's something else when it comes down to the very definition of a message upon which you would be willing to To give your entire life in point of fact, so Fictional unity with those who call the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the believer fiction exactly in fact that term appears
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In the document with the Lutheran saying it is not a fictional imputation yada yada yada, but it but that actual
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Argumentation does actually appear in the text and I found that interesting because I'll be debating one
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Robert St Genis on this subject in just a few months in May on Long Island and rich is
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Jumping up and down in the other room saying it's break time. So thanks for calling today Dennis Alrighty, we'll take a break take your phone calls at 602 -274 -1360 or 1 -888 -550 -1360.
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We'll be right back About 10 minutes left on the program this afternoon. We have some folks finally calling in at what time quarter to three
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Which is exactly when I said come on call in earlier, but they didn't but hey, that's okay. We're glad you did In fact, let's talk with Rob in Phoenix.
41:31
Hi, do you Rob? Hey, I'm doing pretty good. How about you? I'm doing. All right, what's up good? Well, basically, uh, well,
41:37
I just it was kind of weird I'm just sitting in my apartment and I happen to turn the radio to the station and I don't know.
41:43
I'm a young guy I'm 19 years old and You know, I just kind of got the end You know the last
41:49
I guess 10 minutes of your show and okay and like I mean you guys are talking about the Reformation stuff Right.
41:54
Well, we were talking specifically what prompted it was the signing of the Lutheran Catholic Accord in Augsburg Last weekend and we talked a little bit about what the
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Accord was about and a few things like that Is that what the Pope proposed? Well, no, and that's one of the main issues.
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Is that really the Pope's representatives signed this agreement? But it also it comes with a bunch of caveats and it has really no
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Dogmatic or doctrinal binding upon the Roman Catholic Church in any way and it really does not represent
42:25
Any change in in the Roman Catholic position at all? Well see, I mean, you know, I'll be honest
42:30
I I was raised Protestant and you know, I Kind of went through it and actually converted to Roman Catholic and I mean, you know, like, you know
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We're talking about Reformation and we're talking about I mean, I just caught you now that you brought up really cool points about how
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You know, you can't just hide the truth, you know We there's so many people in this like I always call it like the new age type of new age
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You know, we can just we can just kind of accept God as the Almighty Creator and then just kind of do whatever we want
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To you know, and it's like I mean, I see that a lot, you know, I'm 19 years old I'm I'm in a band.
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I'm in a you know, I'm straight in the secular world and it's like You know for me, it's hard to sit there and kind of talk about this because I mean, you know from the secular world
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Man, you have to look at our just as a Christian faith It's like we're so divided that it's hard for them to take it serious, you know to be honest
43:22
I mean, there's so many different. What is there 23 different 23 ,000 different Protestant churches right now?
43:27
Well, that's that's a very common claim in reality as far as any any groups that have any type of number there
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There might be there might be two or three thousand But of course you have just as wide a spectrum of beliefs represent within Roman Catholicism Yeah I mean you can go to you can go to Boston College of Jesuit Institution and find a a woman they're teaching theology who's an open lesbian and a
43:49
Wiccan a witch So you you find the very same wide spectrum in that which calls itself
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Roman Catholicism Well Roman Catholicism though is well, that's what I you know It's hard for me to to kind of listen to this and I you know
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And I think you bring up awesome points about how we do have to speak the truth But you know thing is man the truth has been so twist and turned and we just kind of We kind of accept what we want to and we kind of you know, what makes us feel good
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And I know I'm not you know, I'm not at all saying, you know, I did that last call I don't you know, oh man, we don't need to be
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We don't need to be saying that stuff dude that you know The Roman Catholics are just you know The truth is man is the church that I go to and the church that I believe in it
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It's the oldest and it's been around the longest and well, I would have to disagree with you. Well, how about well
44:36
Let me ask you something Would you call a church that did not believe that there is a single man the
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Bishop of Rome who's the head of the church? Does not believe that Mary was immaculately conceived does not believe that Mary was bodily assumed does not believe in the doctrine of Transubstantiation does not believe in purgatory and does not believe in indulgences.
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Would you call that a Roman Catholic Church? No, well, that's the Church of the Council of Nicaea in 83 25.
45:03
Okay, because nobody there believed any of those things So I would say to you that you know what here's here's, you know,
45:09
I don't mean to cut you off But you know, and you know the Catholic Church, obviously, I mean, you know, this has been
45:14
It's been it's it's just it hasn't been the best of churches and that's that's why
45:19
Martin Luther had to do what he had to do but you know The way I always try to explain it man that that wasn't the church that was the people in the church and the church itself
45:28
It's good for for 2 ,000 years. How can how can you separate that? I believe that the
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Christ Church has stood for 2 ,000 years I just don't make the mistake of identifying the Roman Catholic Church as his church.
45:39
Yeah Well, I mean the most fundamental thing about the church is does it teach the gospel of Jesus Christ and well, wait a minute
45:46
Rome TG do you believe in indulgences? You know, it's do you have the new universal
45:52
Catholic catechism of the church? No, I have the American New American Bible Okay, but yeah, if you went down to your local
45:59
Catholic bookstore, have you heard of the universal catechism? Yeah, well it came out about four or five years ago
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It is a universal catechism provided by the church by the authority of the Pope to explain
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What the Roman Catholic faith is and you know, there are more sections in the universal catechism on indulgences than there are in justification
46:19
Well, you know it to be honest with you. I am NOT I Just I converted a couple years ago, and I'm still new to my faith but you know the one thing that attracted me was that I didn't have to put up with all the
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BS of And I'm not saying the Protestant Church is full of BS But you know
46:35
I went from church to church and you hear so many different things from so many different people and if I go from parish to parish
46:42
Rob and hear all sorts of different things from Roman Catholic priests, but do you realize that? That on one
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Sunday the whole every Catholic Church reads the same exact Read the same exact scripture.
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It says, you know, you know, we're and over it's the unity Rob unity of what the mass the mass that you're taught to to participate in it around Jesus Christ And he said
47:05
Rob is said to be a representation of the sacrifice of Christ and your own
47:11
Theology tells you you could go to mass 20 ,000 times in your life and still die impure and the mass, you know, and well
47:20
Basically, I mean, you know, that's that the Eucharist is the difference between us and other
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Protestant I mean, that's it. That's one of no, that's one of the To be to be honest.
47:31
Our whole faith is centered around that. I mean every mass The pinnacle of every mass is the
47:37
Eucharist and I mean, how can you deny that? How can I deny the Jesus Christ says that this is my body and this is my he doesn't
47:45
Rob listen to me. Could you listen to me for just a moment?
47:50
Yeah the first time that Jesus mentions eating and drinking in John chapter 6 is John 6 35 and The way that you assuage your hunger and thirst and John 6 35 is coming to him and believing in him not participating in a mass
48:02
There was no mass when John wrote the words that he wrote there The book of Hebrews says that Jesus Christ by one sacrifice for all time perfects those for whom he dies
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Yeah, you don't have that sacrifice of Jesus Christ in Roman Catholicism You do not have a single sacrifice that perfects anyone because he did he did it the first time man
48:24
We'd Yeah, but that's not how it teaches Rob That's what I'm trying to tell you is that if you'll take the time to read what
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Rome teaches you are taught that every time you come to the mass with the proper intentions, then you receive a
48:37
Limited amount of forgiveness for sins dependent upon the perfection of your intentions. Oh, man
48:43
You can't you can't take it literally like that that I'm quick You know what go down and get the universal catechism and read it for yourself
48:51
You know a guy named Scott on of course I do that man Have you ever sat down and gotten
48:56
I cuz I I was a Scott Hahn has been challenged by this ministry to openly debate this Very issue since 1991 and he refuses.
49:04
I don't think so. Really? Yes, sir He was just in town. I'd say when it was a couple like five months ago, and then he gave he gave a
49:12
Yeah, he has a new book. I don't you've read it a father keeps his promise. Yes. I'm well aware of dr Hahn and we have we have debated
49:19
Jerry Maddix Mitchell Pacwa Patrick Madrid. Yes, sir. Do you have access to the Internet? No, not right now, but you know,
49:25
I don't want to cut you off, but you know, I mean we're sitting here debating that But doesn't it seem I mean You know, it's weird because I do have a lot of friends that aren't even
49:33
Christian at all, you know and they're not they're not into the whole faith thing, but you know, it's The way we have to look at it man.
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You can't we how can we ever find unity? You know, how can we how can the world ever to you know, you know, we can find unity
49:48
We're not going to find unity in embracing the papacy. We're gonna find unity in embracing the Word of God It's the
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Word of God that teaches that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is not Represented in a mass.
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It is not something that is limited. It is something that is perfect in what it accomplishes It is that same Bible that teaches us that we can have peace with God being justified by faith alone
50:10
Not by the sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church Oh, man, you gotta have works though. See what you just said.
50:17
You gotta have works You mean the death of Christ alone cannot save you. You've got to add your works to what Christ did
50:22
Did you hear what you just said? But hear me out. How easy would that be man? How easy would that be?
50:27
If I could just say amen Jesus Christ died for me and I truly believe that and I could just walk my life and you truly believe that because the
50:35
Spirit Of God has made it real in your life and has caused you to be born again Rob Rob. Hang on the line I'd be glad to send you some some materials.
50:42
Hold on just a moment. Okay, and to the other callers We thank you for calling in today. I hope you all understand
50:47
We weren't able to get to you because that call we are out of time. We'll be back again next week on the dividing line
50:52
Thanks for being with us The dividing line is a presentation of alpha and omega ministries.
50:58
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51:05
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51:12
.org That's www .aomin .org You can also find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks on our website