Reviewing Osama Abdullah then more Sola Scriptura

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one And now with today's topic here is

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James white And welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon got to start with a little bit of Well, just just listen this will explain everything

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Jesus Christ is my creator. Okay, while Jesus Christ is a prophet of God as I believe him in him

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He escaped to Egypt from King Herod Okay, he ran away to Egypt from King Herod because King Herod want to kill me now

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Tell me how can this guy be God is your God this week? And this is much of a

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Long to say I mean, come on, you know, I mean we need some common sense here, you know, not some passion and emotions and Let's let's bring out the truth, you know, even if it hurts, let's let's analyze it.

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Okay I mean, you honestly this is that this man can be your God. Okay, I mean, you know, we're just told

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That Jesus evidently was somewhat of a coward because he ran away from Herod went to Egypt.

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Jesus was a baby He was one year old He was taken by his parents to Egypt for crying out

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So we just told what just common sense. Yes It's common sense to actually read what the text says and realize that when he returned he's two years old and therefore to accuse him of somehow being

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Lacking courage because his parents taken to Egypt rather than face the murderous. Herod is

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Truly truly Jesus he said Jesus was one year old. Okay.

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Well, we're not talking about my next -door neighbors one year old, but maybe here We're talking about my creator

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Okay, whether he was one day old or 100 years old Running away from a creation of his

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Jesus Christ Christ my creator as dr. James believes Ran away from his creator.

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Okay, just this just tells you how absurd this belief is Who said that he was one year old?

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Okay, some I was saying he was a little kid. Okay, so he could have been five years old

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Let's assume one day one year old. This is not my next -door neighbor here. We're talking about. Okay, this is my creator

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So it's different. I had in my report.

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I had simply Forgotten about the Jesus is a coward because he ran to Egypt defense

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From my debate with Osama Abdullah and So while I was putting something together today,

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I happened to run across that and I was like, oh I think

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I know why I forgot that But it does illustrate just again how

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Completely and abjectly without knowledge of the Bible my first opponent was in in those debates

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How bad Argumentation can become at times and yet again, even when

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I point out, excuse me He didn't run away to Egypt. He was taken to Egypt after his birth by his parents

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He's back in Nazareth at about two years of age. So you know, this is the time frame and so to make the argument that he ran away from his own creation is

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Like really silly and instead of coming back and saying, oh wow, you know, I I don't know where I got that idea

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I I should have you know been a little more careful It's boy might have been five

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He was taken by his parents to Egypt he was a man But but folks this is remember the fig tree the fig tree argument.

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You remember the fig tree from the very first the very first Debate we did, you know, why couldn't you just commend it to bring forth big and This is you know

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We're used to dealing with groups like Jehovah's Witnesses and stuff that have a little bit more advanced argumentation, you know and sometimes you hit this and it's just like You're you're stunned by it because it's you've never heard it before and it is really bad

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But just because it's really bad. You still have to be able to give an answer for it. So That was what's part of the debate last

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Saturday evening was that Saturday evening Saturday afternoon. I forget which one that one was. I think it was Saturday afternoon.

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Yeah, that was that was the first one but It's it's hard to tell because there you know while I was debating

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Two different topics in those two debates. My opponent was just basically throwing the same stuff out in both of them

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So it's sort of hard to just by looking at remember which one was which? But they're there you go

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The Jesus was a coward because he ran to Egypt away from his own creation argument

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What what indeed can can you say Moving on from there last time that we were together

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We discussed some of those issues played some some clips and things like that And I had someone in channel say well, you're probably never gonna finish the

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Madrid debate now, huh? I'm like Why would I not finish the Madrid debate?

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Well, we'll get to it. You know the thing called patience We will we will get to it.

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Is there a special font that people use to get that tone of voice? Yeah, it comes across in my screen is very special Comic Sans Is what it comes across on my screen that way.

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I'll know it in the future when I see it. Okay. All right It's like well what we have to do it every single program or we're just gonna stop doing it in total

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I don't understand it, but we're getting back to it tomorrow for those in the Phoenix area Just as a note, we will be at the

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Ligonier conference and we'll be there first thing in the morning It's gonna be two long days

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Really is gonna be two long days, but some great speaking and hey, did you know that the Masters?

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The choir from John McCarthur's gonna be there. So That'll be that'll be cool. And so we will be over near the bookstore

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At the Ligonier conference tomorrow. So if you want to come by say hello And this is for folks who actually like us

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You gotta come by and you're not a friendly person that I wouldn't bother to do that besides I'll have really big security people stand around.

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I'm sure to Mm -hmm make sure that you're a nice person. But anyway, we will be there at the Ligonier conference tomorrow for those of you be coming up, so Having said all of that Let us continue on since some people are just evidently jittery about back to it, let us continue on with the

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Discussion of the 1993 Debate we need to get this done before the end of 2008

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Or it'll be way too long. Oh, did we ever get that? Never did we get that mailbox put together for me?

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Probably not You'll let me know Keep an eye out.

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I want to put something up on the blog We did a little digging around and on October 3rd

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Really the whole month of October because it wasn't just one day but the whole month of October is the official 25th anniversary of the founding of Alpha and Omega ministries and you know, there aren't a lot of ministries

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There are a few there are a few but there aren't a lot of ministries that have been around for 25 years

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Basically under the same management and doing pretty much same thing, of course we have expanded our outreach greatly over 25 years, but 25 years ago we started with two couples

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Newly married couples we had I believe about I think

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I had already purchased the Journal of Discourses So we had a couple little books in our resource library all in Mormonism, of course

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And we had one tract That was on an eight and a half by eleven sheet of paper pale yellow called and this is eternal life and I have a feeling even that track might not have been completely orthodox.

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I was I was young 20 -21 years of age at that time and Alpha and Omega had grown out of what had happened before that Obviously in my encounters with two

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Mormon missionaries Elders Reed and Reese. I'd love to run into Elders Reed and Reese again I don't know if they'd be overly excited about being identified as ones who started the process that has led to Alpha and Omega ministries, letters to a

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Mormon elder, is the more of my brother, etc, etc, but I Had met with Elders Reed and Reese at my sister -in -law's home.

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I had been married in June of 1982 and around the

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September of 1982 these two more missionaries came by her home.

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My wife is an identical twin and so these two young missionaries were obviously very interested in talking to this very pretty young lady and who is my sister -in -law and so she asked me to come over and talk with these two missionaries and I did on a

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Monday and a Thursday and Between that Monday and a Thursday I read about three more books on Mormonism because I realized how little

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I knew and how unprepared I was I for someone my age

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Which that time would have been would have been coming up on my 20th birthday for some of my age

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I Knew the Bible fairly well But certainly not in the way that I needed to know it to speak to these two young men

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And I certainly didn't know Enough about their faith to really communicate with them and so we had those two meetings and that was the genesis of my beginning to go by the

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LDS bookstore and purchase these books and To try to better understand the

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LDS faith and that led to teaching a class beginning in January of 1983

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At the North Phoenix Baptist Church on the subject of Mormonism and Getting some other people sort of excited about that.

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I believe it was that spring. So yes, it would have been the spring of 1983 My dear wife who was still a newlywed at the time got on the back of my

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Kawasaki 440 and We rode all the way out to the temple in Mesa To attend our very first Easter pageant in 1983.

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We were there the last night in Those days u .s. 60 ended at Country Club Drive now for those of you in the

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Phoenix area. You are chuckling right now but this just indicates how long ago indeed that this was and We went out there and really had no idea what we were doing but we were just seeing all these

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Mormons and all this opportunity to Engage in witness and things like that and that led the next year to our first big outreach out there which was a part of actually my

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Senior Bible project. So, you know, no that was I wouldn't even know 84 was 84 when

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Wally went out with Yeah, you weren't around yet. You you were a year or two away at that point, weren't you? yeah,

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I think it was 84 and Wally Tope went out with this to the Easter pageant to pass out tracts and Wally Tope was the last person to be killed in the

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La riots, he was beaten into a coma died 18 months later But Wally had written a book on the front lines witnessing to Mormons.

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I learned a lot from him that time around and how to get those tracts out and do it well and So that was that's where all this came from.

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And so October of 1983 was when the official papers were

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Filed with the Arizona Corporation Commission and all that kind of stuff as a 501c3 corporation and So next month is our official 25th anniversary.

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So I'm thinking about putting something up on the blog Establishing a an email address for people to write to us concerning how possibly the ministry has been

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Has had an impact in your life what it is meant to you Maybe we could share some of those things in a special web page

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Maybe share some of them on the dividing line. And in fact, maybe we'll have a dividing line where we specifically open the phones to you to Talk about what

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Alpha Omega's meant to you over the years Who knows maybe I can get hold of a fellow who used to live up in Flagstaff and still think

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I think does Probably on a Thursday afternoon something like that. See if I can track down The co -founder along with the

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Kelly and I my wife Mike and Linda Bellevaux Were the other couple that co -founded the

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Alpha Omega ministries with us I haven't seen Mike in about four or five six years now. So I had to give him a call and see if he'd like to Give us a call and we can

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Talk about what it's like to be young and to have hair And those first years of ministry out in in Mesa and then of course the first the first missions trip to Salt Lake City was

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Mike and I and then the first one to the general conference was Mike and I and Poor fellow who still has a twitch

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As a result of going up there with us We hey we learned man we were young and in fact those first few years we used to drive up there

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The first time we did the general conference we drove up overnight. We drove up start six o 'clock

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Friday night We drove through the night 12 hours Salt Lake City went to the house of Gerald and Sandra Tanner changed our clothes showered

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Went to the temple all day long witness to Mormons all day long. There was literally a line

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Waiting to talk to us at the general conference a line of Mormons to witness to is awesome

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Great and then we got back in the cars and we drove all the way home 36 hours without sleep and We didn't do that much after Because that's a good way to die it really really is but you know

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We had to learn over time and like I said We brought a guy along with us and we basically did all the training for him in the car on the way up which is why after just a few hours he was in my hip pocket and Was attached to me like I said has a twitch to this day and in fact never went with us again

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So we learned that's not how you do it. You start the training before you start the trip and So that was that was what we did.

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Ah my I'm gonna start down memory lane here and that's not a good thing to do So let's let's not do that Well, I guess

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One of our regular callers is called in so let's go ahead and take that phone call first and then

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Get back to Patrick Madrid and the 1993 soloscriptura debate, but let's talk with Adam real quick.

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Hi Adam How you doing Again books up to my ears, you know, that's that's what happens

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I I wanted to ask you a question about really your philosophy of defending the text of Scripture because I know you're debating

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Bart Ehrman in January and you know, I'm reading a lot of so -called bell housings and redaction critics and you know, you get a lot of this stuff and you know,

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I I'm trying to figure out how to handle a lot of this stuff from a from a presuppositional perspective

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There's a lot of folks throw out evidence one of the popular theories is Robert Alters they tried to show literary consistencies between texts that are supposedly redacted and now all of a sudden

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They're starting to say well, there was a final redactor that made it all smooth I How you detected the original redaction if that's the case is always left

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Everyone's scratching your head. I think what they're I think what they're what they would probably say is well because of all these inconsistencies

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Like in the flood narrative and things like that You know But you know, you would think people back then were bright enough to Figured out how to do this a whole lot better than they allegedly did, you know

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Yeah, well, this is the way it is that you know, they absolutely have it in their brain that this must be errant

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There must be redaction. That's just the way it is. That's where they start. There's no question about it and and you're right that's how you have to have to approach it and That's and you're right.

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I will be seeking to expose the presuppositional nature of dr. Ehrman's Assumptions just as I did with John Dominic Ross and the very first question that I asked of cross and was what kind of evidence could be presented to you that would convince you that a

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Miraculous event took place in the first century and his response was well There couldn't be there can't be any evidence of the supernatural.

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There you go. I just illustrated the presuppositional nature of his starting point to his entire system and There is a presupposition in Ehrman's thinking as well and there is a tremendous amount of this very same kind of naturalistic presupposition that exists in the

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Christian Academy what's called the Christian Academy and especially when people ask about The Old Testament issues and about redaction criticism and well housing and the graph well housing stuff and all the various permutations and Variations on a theme that that develop all the time

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I say, you know, we gave we gave the Old Testament to the Liberals by and large a long long time ago

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There are some conservative Old Testament scholars Gleason Archer and others But they are by far in the small minority and that doesn't change the fact that even though the bulk of current writing

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Reflects that same kind of naturalistic Presupposition that really doesn't mean anything because I don't see a whole lot of thinking outside the box in fact, if anything we've gotten to the point where if you actually

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Are are historically Orthodox and your view of Scripture, you know, I'm gonna be given an opportunity to speak within those contexts

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You're you're it's it's almost as bad in that area as it is in the science area If you dare say, you know

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There seems to be a whole lot of evidence of the existence of intelligent design here at you're fired.

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You're out, you know It's it's it's pretty much that dogmatic and so Just the fact that the majority of writing in a particular time period even the periods 100 150 years in length

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It doesn't mean almost anything because back and you know starting late 1700s in the 1800s especially with the rise of German Scholarship and and you know moving

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John back the second third fourth centuries and stuff like that what eventually happens Well, what are the earliest manuscripts in the

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New Testament? We have they're from John so something comes along and things get reoriented and You know, it takes some work.

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So but I can understand what especially when you're in school and you're you're surrounded with this stuff

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It's difficult to You know keep fighting the battle I was one of the advantages of my going to Fuller Theological Seminary For my first master's degree was that I had to fight that battle

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It was a battle in every single class and that was good for me in the long run, but it's not good for everybody

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That's not necessarily what I would recommend to to other folks But you're right You have to approach it from the presuppositional perspective and generally when you do you get these blank stares

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Because well, that's always how we've done. Well, actually it isn't but maybe in your experience

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Everything you've read starts from that perspective But if you don't start from that perspective you read

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Gerhard von Rot or something like that You find gaping holes in the reasoning because of that But you know, you know

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I remember my my teacher stand up in front of the class and holding up John Rot's commentary on on Deuteronomy saying this is the best commentary in English on the book of Deuteronomy in print today

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And when I when I wrote my review of it, the only positive thing I can say about is it had a very nice binding

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And then I went into all the negatives now Thankfully, he still gave me a really good grade because I had obviously read the book very carefully and and made my arguments well but You know, that's that's what you're what what you're up against and so how would you go after those presuppositions once you point out?

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You know because it seems like once you go into naturalism and you start arguing Well naturalism can't account for this and naturalism can't account for that.

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It almost seems like you've totally left the biblical text altogether Well, but you're having to address you see you're having to address what they're bringing to the biblical text and so You're you're having to point out that they are

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Functioning on a worldview that the authors of the books are looking at would would never have even begun to conceive and That they don't really have any particular

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Particularly good reason for doing so and that they're operating on certain a priori Assumptions that have been given to them by others.

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Have they ever bothered to consider the consistency of those assumptions? And in fact, why in the world are you studying this stuff?

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Anyways, if you're going to accept that kind of a presupposition what what good is this going to do you anyhow? If you do so, so yeah

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I I realized that it's not so much an argument about that as it is the methodology that you're bringing to the text

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And saying hey, you know, you seem to have a real strong desire here To find in the biblical text all sorts of disharmony but exactly, why are you bringing those presuppositions to the text in the first place and why is it that the one possibility that can never be allowed into your thinking is that there is actually a

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Consistent and harmonious way of looking at it Why is that the one thing because I remember listening to Crossan and Borg for hours and hours before we did the debates back in 2005 and That was the one thing that every once in a you know

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Maybe three or four lectures just in passing almost as an afterthought sort of like oh, well, of course, you know

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I mean people in the past tried to harmonize the things but that's just silly and and they just move on there was never any serious interaction with that kind of a thing at all and What goes on today what really goes on today and dr.

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Ehrbeck was telling me that CL he gets a lot of these people will come up and just right attack you right out of the Bath and I'll start saying like oh, this is country

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How do you explain this and this and this and this and that and that and then we'll keep piling it up Oh, yeah, and if you answer all of them, they'll try to find one that you haven't answered

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Of course, but there's there's I'm sorry. I wish there was a way that you could You know wave a magic wand make everybody logical and rational and have a high view of truth and a high desire to believe truth

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But you can't and and so in my debate with Osama Abdullah, that's what he was doing Is he had a list on his website, you know, there's there's lists all over the place

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You know, Dennis McKenzie and biblical errancy from 25 years ago dealing with him There is no end to the list that you can create of alleged contradictions in the

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Bible and so they'll just sit there and rat -a -tat -tat throw them out and If they throw out 15 of them and you have time to demonstrate that five of them were completely bogus

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Then they figure well, you couldn't answer ten of them. So that's it. Even though they didn't have time to That kind of thinking there's nothing there's honestly as frustrating as it is.

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There's nothing you can do about it and You have to have a proper attitude about what you're doing and what your own faith is about to not be deeply troubled by that because We should remain troubled that there are people who have such a low view of truth and such a low

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Desire to be truthful that they could buy it then so lacking discernment and discernment that they can buy into that kind of argumentation

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But the same time you can't let it bother you so much that it becomes a distraction for you

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And I know of what I'm speaking here because it's it's just part and parcel of what I do

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I have to deal with people like this all the time and many years ago,

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I had to come to the point where I have my faith and and I recognize what the ground of that is and what causes that to grow and what causes that to to be confirmed and I can't allow the reactions of others to really impact that and It's just it's something that comes experience and thinking through the issues that you know what?

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When you speak the truth to those who in in God's judgment do not

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Have discernment to love the truth. I mean, what does Paul say? What's the Paul's description and in second

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Thessalonians those who refuse to love the truth God will cause them to love a lie When you see that happening in others you you you you can't buy into that idea that somehow

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It's your responsibility to cause people to love the truth you can present the truth to them You can model loving the truth to them, but you can't force them to love the truth

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It's just not it's just not possible. And so you have to be confirmed in your own love of the truth and your own faith and then

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When you see others and rebelling against that well, you have to trust the Spirit of God will work with them.

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Okay? Okay. All right. Thanks for your call. God bless All right another one of those students out there dealing with dealing with what it's like to be a student and Dealing with the fact that in the vast majority of situations you find yourself in There there are gonna be issues.

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You're gonna have to demythologize scholarship You're gonna have to see the presuppositional nature of these things Recognize that many of those men who know much more than you do

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They can know much more than you do and as such you have to listen to what they're saying You have to examine what they're saying, but people even who have a tremendous amount of knowledge can frequently be extremely naive when it comes to Thinking through the bigger issues and frequently when they're specialists in one particular area

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They really haven't thought about how that specialized area deals interacts with relates to other areas of Christian knowledge at the same time, so Appreciate that phone call and we're gonna go ahead and take

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Our break and then we'll come back with the 1993 solo scriptura debate between myself and Patrick Madrid.

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We'll be right back How the pilgrims progress it's not an easy way it's a journey to Following Jesus The Trinity is a basic teaching of the

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Christian faith it defines God's essence and describes how he relates to us James White's book

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The Forgotten Trinity is a concise understandable explanation of what the Trinity is and why it matters It refutes cultic distortions of God as well as showing how a grasp of the significant teaching leads to renewed worship and deeper understanding of what it means to be a

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Christian and Amid today's emphasis on the renewing work of the Holy Spirit. The Forgotten Trinity is a balanced look at all three persons of the

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Trinity Dr. John MacArthur senior pastor of Grace Community Church says James White's lucid presentation will help lay person and pastor alike highly recommended

30:07

You can order the Forgotten Trinity by going to our website at a omen org Hello everyone, this is

30:14

Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

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The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

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Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha and Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses

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Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?

30:47

We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well

30:58

Support Alpha and Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

31:04

Thank you Under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality

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Even more disturbing some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior in Their book the same -sex controversy

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James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the Bible's teaching on the subject

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Explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality including

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Genesis Leviticus and Romans Expanding on these scriptures they refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law in A straightforward and loving manner

31:43

They appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people the same -sex controversy

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Defending and clarifying the Bible's message about homosexuality Get your copy in the bookstore at a omin .org

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And Welcome back to the dividing line

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I have some very antsy people on the channel just can't wait till we get back to the solo scripture debate

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So let's go ahead and dive right in the doctrine of God And it's interesting one of the passages that Mormons like to use in regards to the doctrine of God is

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Matthew 5 48 And this is one that that Pat knows real well Be therefore perfect as your father in heaven is perfect Same term is used in Matthew 5 48 is used in James 1 4

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And now how would mr. Madrid explain what Matthew 5 48 is saying to a Mormon? Well, he'd say what you need to understand here that we're not talking about identity

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To be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect does not mean that we become God The term to lie off refers to something else it refers here in this context to having a fullness of moral attributes

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Now if you're wondering what in the world I'm talking about remember right at the end of the last section.

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I was demonstrating that Patrick had blundered in Not doing his homework in the original language and in paralleling passages to second

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Timothy 316 that are not Logically or rationally to be paralleled because of the use of different terminology

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Different context different words, etc, etc. And so I'm illustrating that because we're talking here

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Matthew 5 the sermon on the mount God the Father is perfect in that way and we are called to be perfect morally and So the context determines the meaning of the passage

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What's the same thing in James 1 for perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete what is that?

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We're talking about sanctification. We're not talking about the man of God in the Church of God teaching and exhorting and rebuking

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We're talking about in a man's personal life the completion of the work of sanctification in him We are being what can form the image of Christ And when one is like Christ one is

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Elias one is perfected by them So the point again is we need to look at the context of passages and second

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Timothy chapter 3. What's the context? The context is the man of God Functioning as the man of God in the

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Church of God doing what teaching rebuking exhorting, etc And Paul says the scriptures are able to sufficiently

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Equip the man of God to do this The scriptures are sufficient and in light of this then

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I point out again The scriptures do not present to you the concept of papal infallibility

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The immaculate conception or the bodily assumption of Mary even though Rome says you must believe these things

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Now if it is a good work for the man of God to stand in the Church of God and teach those things we have a contradiction between Roman teaching and Scriptural teaching

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Now mr. Madrid said that I was constantly confusing formal material sufficiency Go back and listen to the tape with this is all being taped this evening go back and listen to it

35:43

I was just discussing the things that Pat himself had brought up and then he brought up Revelation chapter 12 He said well, this is

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Mary. I'd like y 'all to read Revelation chapter 12 and I can take a chance to look at it this evening and And you'll find out yes modern

35:58

Roman apologists definitely say that this was Mary You will find that you're certainly not forced to that conclusion.

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But even if you said you were He did say that well that this is always how it's been understood.

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I Think any of you that are familiar with the early church know that that is not the case at all There's not the case at all

36:21

That's just simply untrue Now we then went back to this ultimate authority issue and Pat said well, okay, let's use a different analogy

36:30

Let's talk about Jesus in the Bible as Jesus the ultimate authority is the Bible the ultimate authority and Again, I have to point out to mr.

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Madrid What is the nature of Scripture the very first comments? I made to you this evening was what the doctrine of soul scriptura is based upon what?

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The inspiration of Scripture that Scripture is God breathe Now when

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Jesus teaches Who is he he is God what are his words?

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You see there is no difference in regards to the nature of what the Lord Jesus teaches what the

37:09

Word of God teaches So mr Madrid wants to use this argument Then he has to show us that the teaching magisterium of the church and the oral tradition are

37:19

God breathed Or you cannot join them together

37:27

And of course, I don't believe that he wants to attempt to do that I Wouldn't he says hey, we would be glad to do that.

37:33

We'll be glad to debate that I am here to tell you I am glad to accept that challenge right now anytime that he wishes to do that Mr.

37:41

Madrid wishes to undertake to defend the Roman Catholic doctrine tradition He has an open challenge for me before you all to do that We'd be glad to do that anytime that he wishes to do so and like I said if if Patrick is to and oh

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He has a perfect record then for some reason after 15 years

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We haven't managed to arrange this debate I would think that if he's very confident in his ability to defend the

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Roman Catholic concept of tradition Maybe even actually consistently define it that would be the first thing you have to do to actually consistently defend the

38:21

Roman Catholic view of Tradition would be to define it and since we're gonna hear him say

38:27

I think in this next section I'm not sure it's been a little it's been a few weeks now since I listened to this and I've been a little bit busy since then

38:35

Especially with the debates last weekend, but I think it's the next section where he is going to say it is the position of the

38:43

Roman Catholic Church to adopt material sufficiency and maybe he could demonstrate that infallibly and dogmatically

38:49

That it is the position of the church to hold that viewpoint not pardon pardon not the majority viewpoint

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Trent, but the position of of the church and but I've 15 years and haven't

39:04

Haven't heard anything As as as Patrick trying to get through to me and you've been you've been you know firewall in it, you know call every day

39:15

No, okay. Thanks. I wish to refocus in the last 30 seconds of my time our attention What is the thesis this evening?

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Does the Bible teach the doctrine of solace for tourists? I've shown you two passages second finger chapter 3 Matthew chapter 15 to present this doctrine

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I've gone into the passage. I have exegesis. I have given you solid biblical reason for accepting that truth

39:35

So far all mr. Madrid has been able to say in regards that information as well Those are

39:40

Protestant saying We must hold to the topic of this evening. The Bible does teach for the scriptural.

39:47

Thank you Winston Churchill Former Prime Minister of the country of England Used to have very sharp

40:04

Conversations at times with other public figures one of whom was George Bernard Shaw the great playwright once Shaw wrote to The Prime Minister and he in this little note.

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He said dear. Mr. Churchill Enclosed our two tickets to the opening night of my latest play one for you and one for a friend if you have one

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Now the Prime Minister wrote back He sent the tape or the tickets back.

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He said mr. Shaw I regret that I cannot attend the opening night of your play however,

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I would like to attend the second showing if there is one now I Bring that up because it's a clever jest.

40:48

It's a clever quip But it doesn't I don't believe do justice to the relationship that existed between those two men

40:57

Yeah Okay, that was a great story

41:04

I thought that was you know Churchill's brilliant and and British humor is just always a hit.

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That's that's a much higher level than we have a Monty Python. However, but I'm looking at this going and the exact importance of this and advanced old scriptura

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Is well, we're about don't worry. We're about to be told I'd like to reverse that tonight and simply say that mr

41:32

White and I are not here to give you a presentation or some sort of a beauty pageant about who is the more forceful the more colorful debater

41:43

Okay, I Not sure again, I I I don't you know, it's been a few years

41:49

But I I do recall sort of wondering where is he going with this? What what was the point of matters is mr?

41:56

White was kind enough to point out just a moment ago. Does the Bible teach soul scriptura now? He made an awful lot of claims

42:03

The last one I think I need to address first He said that all I did in my my last 10 -minute rebuttal was to say that mr

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White has not addressed has not shown us any of these verses. Well, this way I did an awful lot more than that I brought up a lot of arguments that he neglected to deal with I asked him about the man -of -god issue.

42:23

I Could see why mr. White would want to avoid that issue. I Could see why he wouldn't want to Maybe have to publicly say well in this case pastor

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Wagner is wrong or pastor knock is wrong, and I'm right Because ultimately that's what he would be forced to say

42:39

What did I say? Did I not lay out the fact that the fundamental assumption?

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That Madrid is operating on here is that for soul scripture to be true it would have to produce perfect unanimity,

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I I think I think I did and Did I not point out that his own communion could not live up to that state

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I think that I did now one way that I would be in a stronger position today

43:10

Than I was then to address this is I would be able to say now

43:16

In fact, it's interesting Who moderated the debate between Patrick and I in?

43:23

on Long Island when we debated the veneration of Marian Saints Bill Shishko and who did

43:30

I debate in September of 2006 on the very issue Patrick brought up Bill Shishko and So now

43:37

I'd be able to say and in fact, this is 93 and 95 was the debate with Gary Johnson and dr.

43:45

Strimple in in Mesa So this is just so long ago now.

43:51

I'd be able to say well You know what you want to see how this works you want to see the difference between acquiescing to Rome's ultimate authority and Holding to solo scriptura.

44:04

I've done it Three times now I have debated this issue

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And I did not have to go to external sources and I did not have to say that the man that I was

44:16

Dialoguing with was not the man of God Together as brothers as men of God we went to the

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Word of God as our foundation for addressing this very issue and we showed our

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Confidence that what we believe enough to be able to do that. How do you mr. Madrid?

44:38

Engage in Answering how why why aren't you debating

44:44

Jerry Maddix? I Can debate Bill Shishko as my brother in Christ while Jerry Maddix and Patrick Madrid exchange anathemas hmm,

44:56

I Wonder why there's such a major difference between the two on that issue. Mr White is confusing the issue by telling you that he goes by God's infallible

45:07

Inerrant word, which it is. Of course. He's confusing the issue when he says therefore, that's all

45:12

I need and I know what to do Because two things are at work. Number one. He's presupposing that he is the man of God that has spoken about in 2nd

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Timothy 317 entries in 316 Um Okay.

45:27

Well, I guess from a Catholic perspective. I wouldn't be and of course in my perspective Patrick isn't he's a false teacher

45:34

But isn't the point of 2nd Timothy 3 that for the man of God in the church?

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What is the basis upon which you are to be exhorting teaching reproving rebuking etc, etc, but that which is the honest us?

45:48

Okay, so if Patrick wants to say he's the man of God and this is the church I'm sorry that his church doesn't look like the church of the days of Paul, but that doesn't really change anything does it presupposition?

45:59

And he'd actually has to assert point number two that if you misuse scripture You are not a man of God because that remember was the fundamental.

46:07

I did I say that I did not say that first of all notice there's a difference between Misusing and disagreeing upon notice.

46:15

He's he doesn't even want to allow for that He does not want to allow for that even though he would have to admit

46:22

That on so many key issues in Roman Catholicism. There are all sorts of disagreements in fact

46:29

I two weekends ago when I was in New Mexico I Was talking with all the other speakers who has had some?

46:37

exchanges with Mitch Pacwa and He told me a story about How he was talking with Mitch Pacwa and in this particular dialogue

46:46

Mitch had been presenting a very high view of scripture Almost really to the point of inerrancy in fact you just heard

46:53

Patrick Madrid say well of course it's inspired inerrant Well, they know that in the magisterium today.

47:01

They know that in the Catholic Academy today They're in the vast minority

47:08

They know that the vast majority of the theologians of the Catholic Church don't use that language anymore

47:15

They know that And in more honest situations, they would probably say that They know they're in in the minority and so this speaker was asking

47:26

Mitch about later on he says Mitch you know you you you actually got to the point of sort of dancing around the use the term

47:35

Inerrancy in in what you were saying, but you're a Jesuit, right? How many of your fellow

47:43

Jesuits? Do you think would agree with you and Mitch again,

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I'm giving this secondhand. This is what I was told Mitch sort of smiled and said oh about four

48:00

So so what does this illustrate? It illustrates that Patrick Madrid's argument doesn't work because it's self -refuting

48:10

He is saying oh accept our tradition and all would be well and everyone's gonna agree baloney

48:18

That's pie in the sky. That's not Rome today, and he knows it he knows it

48:23

So if he's gonna say well you need to have the teaching magisterium of the church well why hasn't the teaching magisterium of Patrick's church created 100 % unanimity and Does he say that any

48:36

Catholic theologians who disagree with him that they aren't men of God? I mean he must have numerous disagreements.

48:43

I sat in the Catholic answers offices and watched matics and Madrid disagree over Dominican and Augustinian issues right there in a

48:54

Catholic answers office No couldn't be because the magisterium brings perfect harmony and unity, right?

49:03

Wrong doesn't work that way, so I'm sorry But this kind of argumentation is bogus and I would think that he would know it, but remember you know from his perspective.

49:16

He's been undefeated on this subject So there you argument that he brought forward when he didn't like my bike riding analogy

49:23

Let's move forward he talked about dividing and conquering well. I find that amusing it was not dividing and conquering mr.

49:29

White it was simply explaining the fact that Protestantism is a house divided That's not even a house. It's a collection of Individual people living all over the landscape theologically none of whom agree in every detail about what scripture means

49:43

And exactly how many Roman Catholics agree in every detail about what a vatican do teaches

49:49

Trenton? the Council of Constance Again, I take you back to the closing statement with Mitch Pacwa where I brought out my big silver bookcase

49:58

And I pulled out the Code of Canon Law and I pulled out the documents of Vatican 2 and a boat pulled out the documents supporting

50:05

Vatican 2 and I brought out denzing er and I brought out The cans agrees the council's a trend

50:10

I put a big old pile of books And I asked a simple question and I ask it again

50:17

Do does that pile of magisterial documentation clarify or muddy

50:26

Romans 5 1 Does it make the Bible clear to understand or?

50:33

Does it just simply expand the field with a bunch of excess verbiage that actually doesn't clarify anything that the

50:39

Bible says at all I? Think the answer that's really rather obviously to go by the Bible alone.

50:45

Mr. White leveled a snide remark about the papacy that the Pope in Rome Was what the

50:50

Catholics look to I find that interesting because he tied Paul into that snide remark

50:55

Ah We're gonna hear him talk calling me a thief and all the rest of stuff and and I made a snide me

51:04

Little me never read your Bible. Mr. White. You'll notice that in Galatians 118 if you read your

51:09

Bible, Mr What is that? Might that be called? Snide it might be after Paul had converted to the true faith.

51:18

Where did Paul go? He went to Peter No, he went to Jerusalem and he met with all of the elders and He inquired of Peter.

51:32

It's hyster a sigh He wanted to know about the story of Jesus from an eyewitness of that But notice that Paul himself is very careful to make sure that no one gets the idea

51:46

That his apostolic authority in gospel is therefore derivative and of second nature

51:52

To that which was proclaimed by anybody else and I just maybe have to mention

51:58

Wasn't it Peter that Paul rebukes publicly for not walking straight in accordance to the truth of the

52:05

Gospel in the very same book that contains the discussion of Paul having gone to Hyster a sigh

52:13

Peter. Anyways, he made a journey to go see Peter Why would he do that?

52:19

What would be the point of it? I think it was because he wanted to check his doctrine against what the church taught not just against what he knew in the

52:26

Old Testament. Oh but but but Paul says that he actually got his doctrine from Jesus Christ and here's this wonderful Anachronistic reading into the most primitive period the concept of the papacy, you know, it's again.

52:44

It's funny Keating will use things like the development hypothesis from John Henry Cardinal Newman When it is convenient to do so But you see the whole reason that Newman had to develop that was because he recognized

52:59

The the view of the papacy held by the church today was not the view of the primitive church

53:05

And so once again these Catholic answers guys, they they want their their their cake, but they want to eat it, too and so they'll use arguments that that's

53:16

Violate material sufficiency, but then when you call them on it, hopefully you're just confused about material sufficiency.

53:22

I hold those materials efficiency well, then why are using arguments that don't and You want to read back into history views the papacy that you know, you'll use sources over here

53:32

Development of doctrine so on so forth that sounds really nice and scholarly and things like that But then you'll argue as if you don't even realize why those arguments had to be developed in the first place that's one of the real problems that you have when you

53:44

Really trust what the Catholic answers guys are putting out and again Patrick Madrid was a

53:50

Catholic answer guy at this time I realize now he's envoy and you know, they're off doing their thing

53:55

But I don't know what the relationship between Catholic answers and envoy is because they have him on all the time

54:02

So clearly, you know, it's a whole lot chummier than it is between Catholic answers and gerrymantics

54:09

That's for sure. He talks about the Catholics is being divided. No, mr. Dwight. That's not true No, there are individual

54:14

Catholics who may say and do any given thing He brought the fact that there are people who would say that I am a heretic

54:20

Well, there are a lot of people who will call me a lot of things Some of my can't repeat tonight notice whenever you cite a

54:29

Catholic against a Catholic the other Catholic just became an individual while the Catholic you're debating of course is standing in the midst of the church and so when

54:40

I would debate gerrymantics on Long Island and I would quote an early church father that would be against his position.

54:46

Well, he was an individual theologian at that point you see he wasn't speaking for the church and Who speaks to the church?

54:55

Well, whoever I say speaks for the church that's that of course is the problem with that but But the fact is what an individual

55:03

Catholic may or may not say about what the church teaches is irrelevant Hmm, mr. White is confusing the issue here.

55:09

Yes, except Maybe Patrick Madrid is an individual Catholic huh?

55:16

Oh No, what if he's an individual Catholic and what if his understanding is is not infallible?

55:23

What what if he makes mistakes? What what if he doesn't understand the teaching magisterium at the church?

55:31

See the double standard of the arguments here, you know when the arguments you use or if you yourself

55:36

Maybe you need get some new arguments on so many other points. I can bring you densing or the

55:42

Incaridium symbol Or which mr. White may have yes, I do sisters library there. The church's doctrines are formally spelled out

55:49

Except you have to interpret them. Oh, no I mean

55:55

I open up densing er and I read the Council of Constance saying the Jews heretics and schismatics

56:01

Will not enter into heaven unless they convert before they die but but but then

56:09

I I open up Vatican 2 and it talks about Muslims worshiping the same

56:15

God and being a part of the plan of salvation and So, how do

56:20

I know? and if the church today Interprets things differently than they did in 1440 or so Then were the people all the way up to today misled or does truth change over time?

56:37

Sola Ecclesia is such a confusing thing He has Ludwig got Fundamentals of Catholic dogma or do

56:44

I can go to what the church officially teaches and say and by the way I've had a lot of Catholics say that I should get rid of Ludwig Work because it's out of date and it's backwards and it's it's it's not enlightened

56:59

So forth and that he was just an individual theologian and blah blah blah.

57:05

I don't care What my opinion may be or any other person around me who claims to be a Catholic maybe I know what the church teaches

57:12

I may not like it. I Know what the church teaches infallibly, mr.

57:19

Madrid Infallibly, how about when you disagree with other Catholics? they must be

57:26

Fallible, but you're infallible See, I'm just using his same arguments he's gonna try to force me to be an infallible interpreter scripture or Scripture itself cannot be sufficient and I need to have his magisterium.

57:40

Well, okay, let's supply the same standards Let's see if this works and if it doesn't work

57:46

Try not a good argument you disagree with it, but at least I know what it teaches How many of you can do that with Protestantism?

57:53

I? Defy you you can't sir. I defy you to go to evangelical bookstore. You know what?

57:58

Let's let's use his own argument here I hadn't thought about doing this. Oh Let's use our argument here

58:06

Take the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689 and the Westminster Confession of Faith 1648

58:12

Which would be used in the Presbyterian Church there? Determine how close they are and what they teach and compare it to what you have in Roman Catholicism today the spectrum of absolute unanimity between myself and my conservative

58:27

Presbyterian brothers in comparison to the wide range of Interpretations of just Vatican II is not even to be compared

58:36

That makes the point Rome's claims bogus and refuted will continue on with this examination of the 1993 debate

58:43

Next time here on the dividing line. See you then. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

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