Egalitarianism | Ep. 2

Cornerstone Church

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Especially in a culture that that has now redefined what sin is, you know prior to our generation in America by and large the

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Ten Commandments were fashioning morality, right now people actually think that what we're saying is

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Evil. Yep Like you're being really bad morally wrong and they don't realize they're sitting in a place of judgment

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With no standard right to judge that by except their own cultural milieu There will be an outtake.

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Okay, so Welcome off to cuff today's topics egalitarianism Let's go

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What do we want to talk about with a gal? What is we've got to define our terms, right? Yes, we can't you can't have a podcast without defining terms.

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Yeah, what a problem defining terms is in the culture mm -hmm and with the egalitarianism we're talking especially between men and women women in the church and Egalitarian meaning equal that there's not distinction that they're the same sameness and Practically that means female pastors.

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Yeah, or maybe even female elders or deacons, right things of those nature

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Now, how does that compare with feminism? Feminism well egalitarianism would be kind of an iteration of that.

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So prior to the 1960s feminist movement. Well that goes back even earlier, but prior to that movement churches were pretty well uniformly understanding patriarchy the word

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Just curse. I think that's a pejorative. Sure. Well the word the word Patriarchy.

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Yeah means father rule. Okay father rule That's the rule of the father in the home right in the church

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But even in in a sense in the way God designed the world to be right that it's kind of a patriarchal world

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We don't worship Mother Earth We worship Father God, right?

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And there is a designed order in the reflection of God in how the world runs

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Well, okay a couple more terms. We're gonna pull up. So you did egalitarian. Mm -hmm. You did

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Patriarchy you did patriarchy then there's Complementarianism. Mm -hmm. So complementarian is kind of a newer word

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Evented invented maybe the 90s with the Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood Which which is

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Wayne Grudem. I don't know that they made up the term, but they popularize it John Piper in this Council Which really spelled out and it was a very conservative movement in opposition to egalitarianism

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Okay, so complementarian stresses the Complementarity so the two going together man and woman in different roles that complement one another, right?

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So John Piper would give you a definition of manhood and of womanhood and those two are

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Complementary in the roles that God but see here's the thing to emphasize with complementarianism Stressing men and women are equal.

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Yes in value in the imago Dei in the image of God in a moment Yeah, yes

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But there is a complementarity of roles so there's different roles but equal value, right that's complementarianism

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Okay, one more turn one more turn male headship. Mm -hmm. Yes so the analogy there's to the body the head is the the leader of the body has the eye gate to see and has the

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The brain in a sense of decision -making and the body in that metaphor is

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Following the lead of headship. So male headship in the home in the church, right?

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What we're saying is that the headship when this is a biblical analogy, of course, you know, this is not just made up It's right first Corinthians 11.

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Yeah Yeah, it's sort of like what Paul taught us Yeah, the headship of the man in the home in the church and there's also a certain headship in society

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We could talk about but here in the church, right, right it's not according to God's design for a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man because she is

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Subverting right the headship, right, you know, and that's that's not according to God's Word Because God did make men and women different.

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Mm -hmm. There are real differences between men and women surprise the front Everybody knows this but the world has to pretend that it's not true, right?

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You know that they're interchangeable and you can even change literally interchange your your sex not the case, but God has created these differences and His design is best and the word actually is the final and only authority as to how these things operate

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Okay, is is is the confusion in the culture?

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Because of anything scriptures go all the way back to Genesis 3 where you're you know, well, so I think what you're hitting on is the fall of man

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Adam does not fall by his own initiative It's Eve who was deceived right in the garden and she exerts a picture the

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Hierarchical kind of structure where you have God over Humanity male and female there's that complementarity and the beasts.

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Okay. So what does Satan do? Here's here's the serpent who's under the dominion of humanity, right?

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He exerts himself up over Adam and Eve and commands different than God.

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So this competing kingship, okay He commands them differently and leads them differently

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Well, it's Eve then now watch this who exerts herself over Adam right in being taking the lead yes in Exerting that headship and leads him into the very sin that she was deceived by So even in that the fall of man

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You see that twisting of the created order and then in the curses that follow and he said he will over you

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Yeah, and he sent by not engaging. Yes, right. Yeah. Well, so what should he have done?

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Stop right. It's Whacked her hand or something. Well, the sir, he should have seen the serpent right right and Assertively as the hedge in the headship of his manhood

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Crushed the head of the serpent right with his heel right and then you have that head heel Strike image of Christ who will do that Genesis 315, right?

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Right, so he he was passive and and that's often the case in homes today

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You have a passive man and a woman who will take put on the pants so to speak Yeah, she wears the pants in that relationship, right?

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She's taking headship over him and that's part of that curse, you know And it's your desire before your husband and he shall rule over you

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So this is part of the curse in the fall like just like our parents. Yeah, you have that that upside -down

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Leadership. Mm -hmm. So yeah. Yeah. So what if a woman likes wearing the pants?

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I mean, you know, what's what's the benefit for her to submit to her husband?

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well, the culture is shouting this message of Egalitarianism that it's everything is equal and there is no patriarchy.

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Mm -hmm, you know destroy the patriarchy Yeah, father rule is the problem in society, right dad's a bad man.

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How's that going for you? How's that going world where where the woman says?

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Oh, yes, we're equal and matter of fact I'm gonna be the leader in this relationship. Yeah. Yeah, how is the home as Ordered that way.

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Well, how are the children? How how does that work for you? I've noticed Right, right

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Right, right. Yep, cuz they don't want to make babies I guess Yeah, boy, we could go down a whole road there

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They would many of them would even sooner kill their baby Than to be forced to become a mother the very thing that God blesses a woman with Paul will say that she will be saved through childbearing.

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Mm -hmm That word sozo is not here referring to the salvation of the soul, right?

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It's preserved or saved back to that original created order Where she is made in the image of God as she carries the image of God just as much as Adam does

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She has a role that in childbearing. She is being Reconfirmed back to that original design where her womanhood flowers

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Wow where her her Submission to her husband first of all sexually so that the child would be conceived

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But then in her role inward to the raising of these children is to her womanhood.

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It's it's to her According to Paul sozo her being saved or preserved unto that role.

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How many times do you run suppressed? their

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Nature their design by God Put off children to learn life and regretted it.

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I Would say, you know, if you go to a college campus, which we're blessed to be able to do You can see the extreme examples of that kind of feminism in Gender transitioning and people wearing pins with pronouns, you know

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Illustrating that and you just your heart breaks because you know, this is indoctrinated.

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I'm a broken home, right? But what I think people don't realize is the extent to which culture seeps into Many people like the average

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Joe or Jane. Yeah, you know that Influence so do not be conformed to the world right

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Romans 12 1 and 2 You don't know when you're being pressed into the mold because it's just the water that you swim in how much feminism yeah is in the culture and in churches evangelical churches, even the feminizing of Worship music.

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Yeah versus how Luther used to lead and the kind of hymns that were written Mm -hmm. There are people that are trying to reverse that now like Brian's I don't know how to say his last name suave slave

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Yeah, he's got a like a number one on the charts in Christian music Is a project toward that end, you know restoring masculinity to Christian music

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That's great. Good, but that's an example where we don't necessarily always recognize the extent that feminism is there

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How much is it in? Any given woman or how passive and non masculine is the average man?

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Yeah in both cases I think it's probably a lot more than what we realize. How do we push back against the culture that's teaching this?

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this these ideas To all of our kids all you know in every public school and we're paying for it

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It's almost even if you're homeschooling your kids You're still paying for other kids in the neighborhood to learn these crazy ideas and they bring it home with them

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It's funny because like our property taxes are like thousands and thousands go to the public schools Yeah, and then because our particular situation we can't offer the

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PSAT So we said can we just only take the PSAT through the public school system? Okay.

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Oh, no, you can't do that And just angrily no So we pay all this taxes. We don't use the public system, but you cannot, you know

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Take the PSAT. You can't use the sports fields because you don't have insurance. So not that I'm bitter about that No, just a little bit.

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I just find it ridiculous. Yeah, but so it's come it's so much of our property taxes Yeah, probably sometimes two -thirds of it.

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Sure. But what was your question? So, I mean, how do we like so I was thinking about This stuff invades us.

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Yeah, you mentioned so they've got the public school. Yeah that are just indoctrination Into feminism and egalitarian kind of thinking it's the air we breathe

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It's the air we breathe and I'm just thinking like, you know, we started this conversation or the last conversation actually

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Yeah, talking about exegeting the culture and we're talking about how Would you agree most pastors just don't even touch with these subjects don't yeah

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I would say sadly politics and then they don't want to preach. I've seen pastors wince when they have to preach about yeah

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Oh, I got stuck with this sermon on the team. Yeah, you know, that's I mean,

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I think we should delight in the fact that we have the truth and Not ashamed of the gospel and not ashamed of anything.

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God says right So the world has has their indoctrination and it's not just in the public schools

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It's also on TV everywhere and every corporation has their diversity equity inclusion, right?

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Which is you know trying to make women the same as men in the marketplace and we could go down So we don't have to we don't have to get people in the church and then tell them all the things

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We don't want to tell them at first we give up. We give them the whole the whole truth yeah, wouldn't that be a little bit more up front like Count count the cost of following Christ This is the truth right and it will lead to human flourishing you all your family will be blessed

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It would be good for you and we'll tell you that on the front end too and you'll fight against it and you'll be very

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Angry, but expect that because that's our point that you're at war with God. Yeah Yeah, you're at what you're a sinner.

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You're dead in your sin and you're a rebel against his throne Yeah, but he's calling you to repent and believe and he will forgive you

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He will wash you and change you and make you new Wow, isn't that good news, right?

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But you have to hear it all in order to really know what to repent of especially in a culture that that has now

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Redefined what sin is, you know prior to our generation in America by and large the

13:56

Ten Commandments were fashioning morality Right now people actually think that what we're saying is evil

14:03

Yeah Like you're being really bad morally wrong and they don't realize they're sitting in a place of judgment

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With no standard right to judge that by except their own cultural milieu. Yeah, but they will make that judgment

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They think that you're you're really wrong to be such a patriarchal. Oh, yeah

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I know I think I know very I know saved Christians that they use. Yeah patriarchy and the pejorative

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Yeah, as it as a cuss word all right, right And yeah, but then they say complementarianism, you know, yeah, so I think let's define that somewhere.

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Yeah Do we so I don't I'm not like Complementarianism or do you like I've always used a term complementarian

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I never even really heard patriarchy Referred to in this way and tell like Michael Foster and it's good to be a man

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Started listening and then you've got all these red pill things and I'm not really I haven't dove into that stuff.

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I haven't listened Largely, so I don't really care like if you want to call it complementarian, but I'd have to I guess say well

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What do you mean by that? And what do I mean by it? Right? So that's what we gotta learn Yeah, define our terms defining our terms.

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Yeah, so I'm so fine calling myself a complementarian is you know, you come from complementarian Okay, why not?

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It defines what it is. It clarifies some things. Yeah, but I'm also fine to say patriarchy whatever.

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Yeah Yeah, there's father rule in the home and in the church for sure. Yeah How important is it that women?

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Recognize the blessing it is to have the Patriarchal structure or a complementarian structure at least

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And and maybe maybe even defined a little bit differently in a modern way because we're not all

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Farming yeah day long. So it's a little different. We're not all hunters and gatherers But in the home or in the church

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Say both yeah. Well first in the church. I think people do not appreciate the importance of a

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Patriarchal arrangement. Mm -hmm. Show me one church that has female pastors where they haven't compromised with With the script yes compromising the scripture but made room for false teaching

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Coming into the church see right. It's a masculine trait To fight evil when we see it, right?

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That's a masculine trait and that's part of the job of a shepherd So if the tightest one nine shepherd has to refute those who contradict right well

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That's a masculine role. Yeah, if you put a female in that masculine role She'll rather comfort and care for the person who's bringing you know this this wolf

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Who's telling the wrong thing she will not fight that wolf okay? She'll coddle that wolf until that wolf has taught enough people and the church

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Becomes liberal and then goes off. You know my wife doesn't like debating with me Could be yeah, she doesn't want to fight you

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Although there are there are women who like to fight. Yeah. Oh, yeah debating scripture. Yeah Yeah God God has made man to stand outward front with our back to the home in the sense of We're the ones that have to go take ground to be on that adventure to fight to protect our home

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But also to go and gather and bring back to the home while she's inward and caring and nurturing for them

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You know I thought about a lot of those a lot of those Churches that you're referring to yeah,

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I don't like to defend scripture either. They don't like the debate no They just well yeah, this is this is true.

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Yeah, yours is wrong. Yep. They won't they won't come and reason Yeah, that's I I always say truth doesn't mind being questioned right if you if you have the truth

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You're willing to defend what you've said right and when you have people that are Willing to make all these accusations, and they love talking to people and you know stirring up things

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But they'll never come and sit face to face debate. Oh, I would never debate. Yeah, well.

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It's because you can't Truth doesn't mind being questioned if this is what the scripture is teaching right then the scripture can stand and I can stand on the scripture

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Yeah, but if you're actually promoting something that's not found here. You know it down deep I think you're suppressing that knowledge and but you're not willing to go stand right.

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It's Proverbs. What is it 18 17? One man seems right until another comes to examine him right that's a biblical kind of picture of how you come to the truth you

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You hear both sides cross -examination right and and the truth will rise that the cream will rise to the top always be ready to have

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Yep, a first Peter 315. Yeah a reason for the hope that's in you yeah

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The gentleness yeah, I struggle with yeah Yeah It says do that with gentleness and respect and as you study that particular topic of when to use gentleness

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Sometimes you're snatching as by the fire from the fire other times. You're more gentle it gentleness isn't like There's times when

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Jesus is fierce Matthew 23 right there's times when Paul is

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Extremely fierce yeah, you know Galatians to hot he is more often than not actually like the picture of gentle Jesus meek and mild right, but yes

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He cares for the one who's broken and and beating his chest and hanging his head. Yeah But anyone who's pridefully resisting the

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Word of God yeah, and he what he's teaching yeah He's a lion in John the first thing he does that yes, it's supposedly public is with people

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Right but uh what is this really great? I think yeah, I thought this was a really good talk.

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That's a great great start because Yeah, it's taken a really challenging topic right off the bat yeah, and then people can ask questions about that you can say yeah

19:47

You got no I get to it next time something We didn't cover and we can build on that because I don't think any of these topics are 20 minutes topics

19:54

No, no, we talk for hours Conversation about it so listen. I don't have anything else you want to know that's it all right

20:02

We said it all off the cuff off the cuff off here. We are off the cuff with pastor Jeff Cleaver author of ten books

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Did you write about feminism in I think in blood -red church you did yeah, that was one of the the seven chapters