April 15, 2019 Show with Kerry Baldwin on “Christian Feminism: Oxymoronic?”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 15th day of

April, 2019.

And I'm delighted to have a returning guest today, Carrie Baldwin.

She is an independent researcher and writer with a Bachelor of Arts in Philosophy and she is the

host of the website mereliberty .com.

She's a regular contributor for the Libertarian Christian Institute.

She's a confessionally reformed Christian and member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church denomination and an

outspoken libertarian and defender of Christian orthodoxy.

And she developed the podcasts, Women, Christianity, and Libertarianism, Dare to Think, and

Flashes of Liberty.

Today, we are going to be addressing Christian feminism and oxymoron.

And it is my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Carrie Baldwin.

Thanks, Chris.

I'm really happy to be here again.

Well, why don't you, before we enter into this very controversial subject, why don't you tell

our listeners again about mereliberty .com.

Oh, sure.

So mereliberty .com is, it's my way

of talking about philosophy and theology.

My mission is, that is the,

and so I do take a, I do take a reformed theological view.

But I address a lot of controversial issues.

And my goal is to get people on, you know, either side

to think through those topics.

Great.

And tell our listeners about the Libertarian Christian Institute as well.

Oh, yeah.

So the Libertarian Christian Institute is much more ecumenical.

Obviously, I take a reformed approach there.

But they do promote libertarian philosophy from a Christian perspective.

And you can find them at libertarianchristians .com.

And of course, libertarian Christians very

often, if not most often, have a different

approach to certain things than mainstream or secular humanist libertarians.

When you consider issues like abortion and so on, you will have many libertarians,

because of the fact that they believe in a very small government, they will say, well,

a woman should have the right to do whatever she wants with a fetus growing in

her womb.

And they don't think there's anything wrong with that.

And a Christian libertarian would take a different approach to that.

And I'm assuming you would agree that the differences would lie, even amongst

libertarians, in regard to certain social and moral issues in

how the law of the land would be utilized in those specific

areas.

I know that you might think that people have more freedom

to do things than your average conservative Christian might,

but that's just because you believe that they should not

be illegal in certain areas and not involve prison time.

And I'm going beyond the abortion issue.

I know that you believe abortion is murder, but there are other things that

the average Christian might be opposed to, the legalization of marijuana and other things, whereas I know that

libertarians, whether they're Christian or not, seem to regularly have an opposition to the quote

-unquote war on drugs and that kind of a thing.

Right, well, libertarian Christians, I mean, you take the war on drugs as an example.

Libertarian Christians might hold that using drugs is

immoral, although

there's a question about whether to intervene in

things where there aren't rights violations against other people.

So, you know, the idea is based on the

idea of self -ownership.

You own yourself, you own your body.

And even if it's immoral in the sight of God to harm your own body, that's not

necessarily a good reason why you should intervene in that.

So we just draw some distinctions between that.

You could still hold a view that drugs are immoral, not good for you, that sort of thing,

while maintaining that they...

Right, and again, going back to the abortion issue, a different issue, you do believe, as we focused

our entire interview last time with you and Gregory Baus, you do believe that that is murder,

because it's not a woman doing whatever she wants to do with her body.

It is another body that we are talking about, a human body that happens to be growing inside

her womb.

Right, and libertarian Christians would actually say that it is more logically consistent with libertarian

philosophy that the fetus

has rights

inherent in itself from the mother.

So libertarian Christians would simply say that they're being more consistent libertarians by

opposing...

Now, our issue today is Christian feminism and oxymoron.

And this is obviously another issue that would probably put you at odds with many

secular libertarians.

I'm sure that there are many feminists out there that are libertarian from

a secular humanist standpoint, or outside of the Christian faith.

But perhaps before we go into precursors of what

led up to feminism, can you define feminism for us?

And I know that there may not be one specific definition for that, but

how would you most readily categorize feminism when that word is used in your own

vocabulary?

Yeah, so I'm going to...

I'll elaborate on this more, on why I take this definition.

Basically, you might even find among libertarian

Christians that there are some self -identified who would even disagree

with what feminism is.

But it all comes down to what the

feminist priest... essentially that's

either intentionally or unintentionally by men.

And feminism is the lens by which we can view how to rectify that.

That's how I would define it.

It's very, very broad, and there is disagreeing,

kind of.

Okay, and again, before we go on to the precursors to feminism,

would you say that in the 21st century, in the United States, now obviously

there are women who are treated like chattel, and

there are women who are viewed as very low on the rung of the ladder of importance.

There might even be cultures where animals are considered superior to women.

But when we're talking about in the United States and North America, if we want to broaden it, do you think that

there is really institutionalized persecution of women

or subjugation of women or that women...

And of course, I'm not talking about individual circumstances where you can

have in every neighborhood husbands that keep their wives locked up in the house and they

can't do anything without their husband's permission and the wives are victims of spousal abuse and I

could go on and on.

But I'm talking about institutionalized... where it seems

that the leaders of feminist movements in the media and

those who are elected officials would act very often as though there's little difference

in the United States today than there was 100 or 200 years ago.

Yeah, so that's an interesting question because there has been a

lot of quote -unquote problems that have been added

to.

Is there still institutionalized oppression of women?

Yes, I do believe that that exists, though not nearly

to the degree that it once existed.

And I almost hesitate to even point this out, but I

would say that there are strains of complementarian doctrine

which are too strong towards the patriarchal view

which would...

Now, I hesitate to say that just because when I talk about complementarianism

the knee -jerk reaction is to think that I'm an egalitarian and I'm not that either

because egalitarianism is based on the idea of sameness.

I affirm the differences between men and women.

Complementarianism affirms the difference.

How we qualify those

things of egalitarianism

that may or may not answer where to peg me

down.

I would say women can

do anything an unordained man can do.

Complementarianism teaches, which is...

But as far as academia or the

workplace,

at least to the degree...

Now to backtrack, I just want to make sure that our listeners heard you correctly.

You said that you believe that women, in your view, have the freedom to do anything an

unordained man can do.

Isn't that what you said?

Yes, correct.

I do hold to male -only...

But you do...

Now, when you said that that's an official Orthodox Presbyterian position...

I don't know that it's official.

Oh, okay.

Just frequently held, I guess you're saying?

Yeah, I guess frequently held is probably the best way to put that.

Because I know, for instance, Orthodox Presbyterian congregations that

would never have a woman teach a mixed Sunday school that included adult men, for instance.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah, I would say if Sunday school falls on a Sunday...

In fact, there was a church where Sunday school...

Not Sunday school, women's Bible study, in

part because of that...

Because a woman led it, you mean?

Yeah, a woman...

Oh, wow.

That's interesting that you would have that view and not be a complementarian.

That's interesting.

Well, you know, I think it's absolutely okay for a woman to teach a

mixed audience.

I just wouldn't put that in the category of Sunday worship or the Sabbath.

Right.

Ecclesiology or the study of the Church and how God orders His Church,

the way God created man, and

how gender plays a role in ecclesiology,

then.

Yes.

All right, I'm going to give our email address if anybody wants to ask a question of our guest today.

It's chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us at least your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, such as perhaps

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Perhaps you disagree with our guest and you'd rather not identify yourself.

I can understand some of those things, but if it's not a personal and private matter, then please at

least give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

Well, let's go into now some precursors of what led up to feminism as we know it today.

Right.

So usually when we talk about feminism, we're talking about a social movement, and it certainly started.

But the, and by the way, I do have a video over

at mereliberty .com slash feminism, so your listeners can

view those.

The common understanding is that it started with,

and that was the women's rights movement.

And, but the term first wave coined until

1968, by a woman who coined both,

and at any rate, the

first wave feminism, or what I'm going to call the women's rights movement, was actually

grounded not in any sort of feminist philosophy.

It was grounded in classical liberalism, which

the classical liberalism is distinct from what we know today as

progressive liberalism.

Yeah, a lot of classical liberals have a lot in common with today's conservatives.

And libertarians.

Right.

And libertarians.

Right -leaning libertarians.

Right.

So I see the social movement of the women's rights movement as

being an outworking of three major things, as far as I can tell.

The first was, of course, the development of classical liberalism.

This is the ideas that America was built on, which is individual liberty,

laissez -faire.

And, of course, this was informed by other things like the Magna Carta, the glorious revolution of 1688,

the French and American revolutions.

And so there were several classic liberal thinkers at the time, and

two that specifically informed the women's rights movement were John Locke, who had a high regard

for women, and Jean -Jacques Rousseau.

Now, those two men weren't in agreement on everything,

but at any rate,

those are the things that were informing classical liberalism at the time.

So the second thing that abolitionist movement in

America, and this is just sort of the sense that, you know, of human

rights extent,

and so that was sort of the sense of the abolitionist movement.

And then finally, the final part of the women's rights movement

was the rejection of, I should say,

and if you actually look at the Victorian true woman,

not so

much instructed, but encouraged by men and women alike.

And she looks very similar to the complementarian idea.

The predecessor to the Victorian true woman was,

and we don't normally talk about

the Victorian idea because feminism was a rejection of

that history of, in part,

by invoking in men, virtue

used to be considered a masculine trait.

And that was used to inspire resistance against tyranny.

With one, there was a need to temper that tendency in men, the tendency

in men to oppose the American government, and so virtue

became a feminine, Victorian true woman and the Republican wife,

and they were expected.

American women have been, certainly socially and

economically,

it's essentially been seen as the job of women

for their tendency to rebel against government.

And then second, to counterbalance.

And she was also seen as a champion of children and family values and the proper role of women.

So those were really fed into

the women's rights movement.

Well, I can say immediately, one of the things that popped into my head when you were talking about

a woman's role as civilizing men, my late wife, I think, felt that was one

of her primary roles.

Every time we went to a restaurant or ate in public or did anything in public,

I can remember the swift kicks under the table to my shin whenever I was doing something that she deemed

to be uncivilized in a fancy restaurant, perhaps at any restaurant for that matter.

But I know that what you're talking about is far beyond that kind of thing.

Right.

Well, you think of the temperance movement.

The temperance movement was from this idea that

women's growing up to be drunk.

That's right.

So, at any rate, and of course, you also had, up to the American Revolution, you had about

300 to 400 years of various rebellions that go back to the Protestant Revolution.

It wasn't simply a rebellion against Catholic theology, or in the

religious sense, it was a clash against them.

And so that had been going on for 300 to 400 years.

You had this situation where men had to sort of turn off the rebel against the

government thing and turn on this idea of creating a new government that they were going to be

loyal to.

And if you could contrast between social feminism versus feminist

philosophy.

Yeah.

So, social feminism is just the social movement.

So this is what you kind of see.

Rachel Green Miller was recently interviewed by Colleen Sharp and Angela Whitehorn on Theology

Gals, and she does a great job at explaining

how the women's rights movement was hijacked by the sexual revolution.

So, at any rate, the

political activism, what I'm addressing is

actually the system of thought,

the second wave feminism.

One of the things that it did was it got women into more academic and intellectual fields like

philosophy.

So now there are several women who sort of precede

this movement of women into academia, and most notably

is a woman named Mary Wollstonecraft.

Now, Mary Wollstonecraft was born in 1759 in England.

She was a writer, advocate of the rights of women.

She was married to another philosopher named William, and he

was utilitarian in defense of anarchism.

And, incidentally, Mary Wollstonecraft and Mary

Shelley, who is the author of Frankenstein.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

So Mary Wollstonecraft wrote a pamphlet back in 1792,

which was called A Vindication of the Rights of Women.

So she's identified with laying the intellectual groundwork for the

women's rights movement.

And this was actually two years after she had written A Vindication of the Rights of Men.

In fact, our listeners will immediately recognize a quote that is probably

most frequently used, especially by conservatives

in the political arena, the only thing necessary for the

triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

That is a quote from Edmund Burke.

That's probably what most people will remember him for.

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah, so she was responding to

Burke's sort of assessment of the French Revolution.

Now, what's interesting is that patriarchy, the term patriarchy at the time, was

referring to something called the divine right of kings, which is the idea that monarchs held inherently divine

mandates by God to rule.

This idea actually goes all the way back to ancient Rome and, quote, father rule.

But patriarchalism is what John Locke sort of blew out of the water when he wrote the Second Treatise of Government.

And Locke was born and raised in a Calvinist home.

Now, when you contrast that with today, patriarchy has become more of a pejorative

word to mean something, some kind of subconscious,

maniacal, and uncontrollable desire in men.

Now, I don't think it's accurate to paint all men in this fashion, which

some feminists have done, but it's also not entirely unreasonable,

given the curse of the Fall in Genesis 3 .16.

And so, you know, there's somewhat of

a

bet that can

get

oversimplified

part

of our history.

Right.

Just like the issue of racism.

If everything is racist, then nothing is.

And the same thing with misogyny.

Here we go, hand in hand.

I mean, it becomes the boy or the girl who cried wolf after a while.

When people make accusations over and over and over again to the point when they're laughably ridiculous, then you're

just not going to take those people seriously anymore.

And unfortunately, many people won't even take any accusation of these things seriously anymore.

Right, yeah.

There's a lot of what feminism does, unfortunately.

In fact, you know, I'm sure that you heard of the hashtag MeToo movement that came out.

Of course.

At any rate, I guess maybe it's more than that, two years ago.

Anyways, they actually did a study on the MeToo movement, which was intended to raise

awareness of sexual harassment, sexual assault against women.

And the study that they did showed was that the way in which

women were talking about the MeToo movement and sort of

doing this over -generalization thing and man -hating thing, it actually had, MeToo had an opposite effect

of what it was intended to do.

And so now it's not taken as seriously.

Well, when we return from our very first break, I want you to answer the question, what

is feminism, what is Christian feminism, and how does it fit in?

And you can respond when we come back.

If anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R

-I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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feminism, an oxymoron.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in today, our guest is Carrie Baldwin, and she is discussing

Christian feminism and oxymoron.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA.

And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

We do have a listener.

Before I have you answer the question, what is Christian feminism and how does it fit in,

we do have a question from a listener.

Susan in Setauket, Long Island has a question.

And I'm looking for it right now.

I just had it right in front of me before the commercial.

Here it is.

Okay.

Susan in Setauket, Long Island says, How does the use of the word feminism and

all its connotations apply to a woman who claims to be an orthodox

and reformed Christian?

And she has another question that I will have you answer after you answer this one.

All right.

So the word feminism actually

in its original

use evolved to mean something.

So that's,

it really depends.

I mean, I don't personally label myself a feminist, and I think towards the end of this I'll be

able to explain why that's the case.

If feminism, essentially if feminism means fighting for the rights of

women, and

that's not

typically

to presume that I'm a

woman.

So I

don't personally take on the...

And Susan's second question is, Do not libertarians support the freedom from government

intervention on individual choice, which may include sexual preference, et

al.?

How does that jive with orthodox Christianity?

So libertarianism doesn't actually

support gender identity.

The fact ascribed to that view is

more personal preference than relating to libertarian philosophy.

So it's just as reasonable for a Christian libertarian to come along and say,.

Now, my friend who is now in heaven, William Norman Grigg, who was

a Christian constitutionalist libertarian, he,

although he believed that homosexuality is a damnable sin,

he was not trying to be soft on this sin, but he believed that the

government should not intrude upon two men or two women who

desire to be married just as he did not believe the government

should be a part of anyone's marriage, even heterosexual marriage.

Now this is what I have told a lot of people in this regard.

The bigger problem with same -sex marriage is that it imposes upon

people who are Christians and even orthodox Jews and Muslims and

others who have a biblically correct view on marriage being

only between a man and a woman.

Of course, there are Muslims who believe in polygamy, so I don't want to go into that.

But as far as those that believe in marriage being only between a man and a woman, one man

and one woman, the laws that are

snowballing and becoming bigger and bigger and bigger in protection of same

-sex marriage are intruding on our rights because we are being forced in many

venues of life, in many spheres of life, to accept two

men as being a married couple legally, depending upon what we do for a living and so on.

I mean, isn't this really where the main problem is in regard to this?

Because, for instance, even though I believe homosexuality is unnatural and

abominable and damnable, if two men wanted to have some kind of a ceremony in their backyard where

a high priestess waves a wand over them and considers them married, I'm not going to call the

police and have them be arrested and so on.

But I don't want to be forced to recognize them as a married couple.

Yeah, so this is a little bit of a tangent, but, you know,

the marriage license

is not

about it.

It was actually like the idea of intercourse.

A license, legally speaking,

you are literally asking the state if it's okay

for you to get married.

The Christian libertarians look at this and go, marriage is a covenant between

husband and wife and God, and we don't need this.

And certainly nobody else should get married.

And, you know, the interesting thing about this is, you know,

since the marriage license has now been

for couples, the big fear right now is

legitimizing pedophilia.

Right.

And I want to explain why this is actually for concern,

because prior to, and this is still legal today in many states,

child marriage is legal and has been.

And it's been defended from a group of

believers who say, no, child marriage is not okay.

But historically it has been defended from a Christian perspective.

And so, you know, the idea is that

you can get married to

child marriage and legalized

gay marriage.

Then the next obvious logical step is that child marriage

between the same sexes would be legal.

And that's what pedophilia is.

So it actually doesn't protect marriage to have a

marriage license.

We can protect Christian marriage by getting the state out of it entirely.

Right.

You know, you've educated me on this.

I did not know that the marriage license was first instituted to prevent interracial marriage.

I thought it had something to do with preventing bigamy, not polygamy

necessarily, but the man who would have more than one wife without the knowledge of those quote -unquote

wives.

Getting married to another woman behind your first wife's back, etc.

That's what I thought it was.

But wouldn't that be one at least legitimate reason to have the government in some way involved in a marriage

to protect women from being defrauded by men who are marrying other women?

You know, it basically falls under contract law, and libertarianism does have

contract law.

And so, you know, you would have, in a libertarian society, you would

have, get married, they would enter into a contract.

That contract is something that, and in that contract could be

provisions that, you know, in

another, but

you don't need

a state.

Well, we have to go to our midway break right now, and I want you to continue on the same theme of

the last question that I asked.

What is Christian feminism, and how does it fit in when we return?

And this is our longer than normal break, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM, Lake City, Florida,

requires of us this middle break to air their own public service announcements and commercials

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Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Carrie Baldwin after these messages.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with a little less than an hour to go is Carrie Baldwin.

We are discussing Christian feminism and oxymoron.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail

.com.

Chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of

residence if you live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

Before we return to our discussion, we just have a couple of important announcements to make

in regard to upcoming events that we hope that you take advantage of.

First of all, tomorrow at 3 p .m. Eastern Time, Ligonier Ministries is

going to be airing a live podcast called Ask Ligonier

with Burke Parsons.

Burke Parsons, who is now the pastor of St. Andrew's Chapel

in Sanford, Florida.

He was the assistant pastor to the late R .C. Sproul and is now the

senior pastor there.

And if you go to Ligonier, go to their

main website, which is Ligonier .org, L -I -G -O -N

-I -E -R .org, you can find out more about Ask Ligonier with Burke Parsons

live at 3 p .m. Eastern Time tomorrow.

And coming up after that, there is a conference called

Dort 400, celebrating the 400th anniversary of the Synod of Dort.

And I hope as many of you as possible can attend this event, which is being held at the Trinity

Protestant Reformed Church in Hudsonville, Michigan, from Thursday, April

25th to Saturday, April 27th.

And this is on, as I said, the 400th anniversary of the

Synod of Dort.

And speakers include Professor Ronald Kaminga, Professor Barrett

Gritters, Reverend Ryan Huizinga, Professor Doug Kuyper, who is

going to be our guest again for the second time on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, coming up soon, Reverend Bill Langerak,

Reverend Mark Shand, and Reverend Angus Stewart.

If you would like to attend this event, go to Dort400 .org, and Dort is spelled D as in

David, O -R -D as in David, T -400 .org, and you can

get all the information that you need to attend this event.

Then after that, on Thursday, May 23rd, right here in Carlisle,

Pennsylvania, I am having the next Iron Trip and Zion Radio Spring Pastors Luncheon.

This is a free event to all men in ministry leadership.

We do not invite women who are in the clergy.

We do not invite the wives of pastors.

This is specifically a men's luncheon.

And if you would like to join us, whether you are a pastor, an elder, and I believe that those are the same office,

a deacon, a leader in a parachurch organization, then please email me at chrisarnson at gmail

.com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put Pastors Luncheon in the subject line, and you will be registered for this free

event, and you will not only get free food, but you will also be able

to hear Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary, the professor of apologetics and

Islam, give a message on how the Dead Sea Scrolls

vindicate the reliability of the Holy Scriptures.

That's Thursday, May 23rd, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at the Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet

Hall here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Nearly every major Christian publisher in the United States and the United Kingdom has donated free books,

free brand new books for every pastor that attends.

These are books that I personally choose for my guests, and I get a

hundred of each of the titles I choose from these publishers so that every man can get

every one of the books donated to us.

So, you're getting everything for free.

This was the strict policy of my precious late wife, Julie, who came up with these Pastors

Luncheons in the 1990s, even before I had my own radio program.

I have been in radio advertising sales since the 1980s, and my

late wife recognized that I had more pastor friends than the typical Christian.

Most of my friends actually are pastors.

So, she said, why don't you have a luncheon, a free luncheon, where you just treat men to a day of

rest, relaxation, fun, fellowship, food, and have a guest speaker there and

get books donated to give away to these men.

And so, we've been doing this since the early 1990s, and when my wife went home to be with the Lord, I have continued

these luncheons, and I am continuing her requirements, which I agreed with a hundred percent, that there

were to be no ulterior motives.

There's not anything sold at these luncheons.

There's no hidden agenda.

This is purely as a treat to pastors, and I hope that if you are a pastor or a man in ministry leadership, you can

attend.

Just send me that email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put pastorsluncheon in the subject line.

That's for Thursday, May 23rd, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at the Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall, Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

I would love to see you there.

Dr. Tony Costa will also be, after he leaves Pennsylvania the following day, he will be

speaking at several churches on Long Island, New York, and you can email me for information on those speaking

engagements.

He's going to be speaking Friday night and Saturday morning at the New Hyde Park Baptist Church

in western Nassau County, Long Island.

Then on Saturday evening at 6 p .m., he'll be speaking at Wading River Baptist

Church in Suffolk County, Long Island.

And then on Sunday morning, he is going to be speaking at

the Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York.

That's at 11 a .m.

And then finally, Sunday at 6 p .m. of that weekend, that would be the

26th of May, he will be speaking at Missio Church of Ridge, Long Island, New York.

And I can get you all of the information that you need on all of those speaking engagements if you send me an email to

chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Then I am going to be heading to, immediately after that, I'm going to be heading to Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania

for the Banner of Truth East Coast Ministers Conference, May 28th through the 30th, in Elizabethtown,

Pennsylvania at the Elizabethtown College.

That's Tuesday, May 28th through Thursday, May 30th.

The theme is, I Believe in the Holy Spirit, and the speakers include Jeff Kingswood, Terry Johnson, David

Vaughn, Stephen Nichols, Michael Morales, and Chad Vegas.

That's the East Coast Ministers Conference of the Banner of Truth on I Believe in the Holy Spirit.

If you want more information about this conference, go to banneroftruth .org, banneroftruth

.org, click on Events, and then scroll down to East Coast Ministers Conference.

And then, I am going to, later on in the year, in December, December 19th and 20th,

I will be attending the Foundations Conference, which is a conference run

by the Banner of Truth.

And the Foundations Conference is a wonderful conference that I have attended for

several years, and I love it every time I go.

I hope that you will attend and look me up while you're there.

The speakers include Dr. Stephen J. Lawson, who you just heard earlier on an advertisement promoting

the New Covenant Church NYC, one of our sponsors.

He is the founder of One Passion Ministries and one of the finest preachers alive today.

Paul Washer is another preacher on the roster at this event.

A phenomenal preacher.

Rev. Jeff Thomas, who is going to be our guest, not this Wednesday, but next

Wednesday, May 24th.

So, keep your eyes and ears open for that.

Mark that down on your calendar for Jeff Thomas' return to Iron Sherpins Iron Radio.

Rev. Armin Tomasian, who is an extraordinary preacher.

As I keep saying, I think he's going to be a household name amongst Reformed Christians over the next decade.

What a powerful and gifted young man he is, with gifts and abilities far

beyond his age.

And I'm sure that you will be thoroughly blessed by hearing him preach wherever he preaches, if you make the

effort to hear him.

And I hope that you make the effort to be there in New York City to hear him, where I will be December 19th and 20th.

And then also Richard Caldwell Jr. and Anthony Quigley are on the roster.

I have not yet heard them preach, but I am sure that they are very gifted men because

Sermon Audio is running this event, and they are very particular, as they should be,

about who preaches at their conferences.

For more details, go to thefoundationsconference .com.

Please tell all of these folks running these conferences, if you register for them or just look for more

information about them, please tell them that you heard about their events from Chris Arns and on Iron Sherp and Zion Radio.

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So please rectify that situation.

I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world, and if you need

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It's also the email address where you can send in a question to Kerry Baldwin.

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Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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outside of the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves personal or private matter.

And now we are going back to have our guest, Kerry Baldwin, expand upon the question,

what is Christian feminism and how does it fit in?

Thanks, Chris.

So Christian feminism is actually articulated in something

which I'll get into in a second.

It's essentially a defense.

It involves the question of whether gender

roles in by men,

now to

explain how this philosophy

is actually,

there are the various fields.

Now this tree of the fields,

and usually a philosopher will stick with mastering one school of thought

or they might delve into those other schools.

But then you also have the historic Middle

Eastern.

So this is important because feminism began as a subfield of value theory.

But it morphed into something much larger, which I'll touch on in a minute.

But the first feminist system of thought was known as feminist care ethics, and this was created or

articulated in the 1980s.

And Christian feminist ethics is a development.

Now, historically, this actually makes a lot of sense.

Remember, American women had been given the social charge of defending,

particularly attempting to influence men.

You know, against revolution, greedy

capitalism, even re -civilizing war.

So it makes sense.

And by the way, this is also why feminists tend to be more socialist and even why

conservative women who may advocate for capitalism still believe in a regulated

market, and that's

because women's rights

movements

morphed into

something

that's much larger.

Now, I would actually say that feminism is no longer just the system of ethics.

It's become problematic, and

even a historical problem.

The premise of feminism, however, is that these older philosophies and schools and

such are inherently flawed because they're derived from the male mind.

So this is a problem for feminism, either because

it's female -voiced or because men have

coercively dominated.

Now, I will say that philosophy today is wide open to

women and

dominated.

Misogyny exists.

I personally, very

different,

make

our

contributions valuable.

Many men and women call

themselves,

focus on,

is a woman

named Deborah, 2012, USA, and

she wrote three books on today.

In 1983, she was regarded

as, quote, groundbreaking for its fine -tuned feminist methodology.

And then in 1985, she published Making Connections, which actually connects Christian feminism to

Marxism.

So feminist ethics, I take to be the heart of feminism

broadly because feminists,

men and women,

even though you have these other

ethnology and things like that,

feminist ethicists disagree on one relevant question, which is

that of

religion created by men to, quote, rationalize female inferiority.

So women like me, for example, who do support the rights of women, albeit articulated by libertarianism

rather than feminism, who also hold the entity that has

my inferiority as a woman, even though I

reject such a rationalization as being incompatible with my,

I and those like me are to be considered anathema as a woman by

feminists.

They actually argue that

I'm not, it actually violates me as a woman, too.

Harrison takes a somewhat nuanced approach.

She says, on the one hand, if you hold to the values of human life and justice, you're

inextricably bound to the Christian tradition.

So you can even not identify as a Christian and

if you

hold to female inferiority.

So in other words, she's essentially saying you are still a Christian based on your own humanism.

And I guess this doesn't really surprise me, coming from a member of the PCUSA.

And just for our listeners to know what that is, it's the Presbyterian Church USA, which is the most

liberal Presbyterian denomination that I'm aware of anyway.

There may be others that I'm not aware of that are even more liberal.

You do have some holdouts that are Bible -believing Christians who believe in the

inerrancy of Scripture and so on, who are truly evangelical and some who are

truly Reformed as well.

Although ironically, I think that the evangelical PCUSA pastors I've met tend to be more

Arminian than Reformed, which is ironic since they're Presbyterian.

But just wanted to let our listeners know where you were coming from when you were mentioning that denomination.

Yeah,

there are

many

things

in

where

mainstream

opportunity for work and legal

feminism goes beyond this to what we call the two substantive norms and

this is inequality of

outcome.

So in the former, we would say that a man and a woman applying for the same job should be weighed equally

according to, say, the value they can contribute to that company.

Feminism said should be given more fully

represented.

And then the second difference in the idea of objectivity.

Feminist ethics claims to be objective.

The problem with

the talking about opportune

male

mind against the female mind, which tends, they reject any

sort of natural law theory.

That is the idea

that

maintaining the natural order.

So even

though

economic

theory, complementarity,

creator, obviously they're taking aim at Christianity here and there.

Before about how I reject the idea of complementarianism.

Complementarity and the design by God, qualify that a little bit

differently.

They actually, now if you're

like me, you're probably thinking, well, what the heck about abortion?

What's the deal about abortion?

Christian feminists claim to hold human life and justice in high esteem and we would

think it would logically follow to reject abortion.

They believe a woman's moral agency exercising

reproductive rights.

Now, if this simply meant the right of a woman to determine whether or not

she wants to conceive offspring.

Ownership does give us the right to reject motherhood.

So we have the right to prevent conception.

But once conception has taken place, I would argue that a woman's responsible for failing to

prevent and she doesn't have the right to take the life of a fetus.

Christian feminists go beyond this.

They posit the idea that women have a divine right to determine which

they argue that a woman must be free to take into

consideration other lives or what they would call the common good.

Other lives in her care, including her own life.

And if she determines that it's unwise or impractical or creates a financial hardship,

that she is acting morally in aborting her baby because of the common good

or thinking of the well -being of others.

So remember, their sense of justice is based on outcome, not

opportunity.

They don't believe that the fetus has a right to the opportunity of life if the

perceived outcome is socially unjust, either for the baby who

may be affected by the baby's birth, including that of the mother.

Now, Harrison actually creates some categories for abortion, which I think I

agree with.

You know, normally we categorize.

She changes that a little, and she has three categories.

She has the stance that

it's unethical and on the opposite.

And then we would call that pro -life or pro -choice

or what she calls the compromiser's category.

So this is everything from the idea of

safe, legal, and rare, and even abortion on demand.

In Harrison's estimation, it's a compromised position.

The Christian

feminist, she wants to argue that women are not merely

purchasing a service available on the market, which is a very capitalist way of thinking, but

that having an abortion she is exercising.

Well, we have to go to our final break right now.

It's going to be much more brief than the last one.

And I have forwarded some questions to you from a listener in County

Tyrone, Northern Ireland.

Frances, I've already forwarded a few questions from her to you, Carrie, so you can

look those over during our final break.

If anybody else wants to ask a question, I would send it in as quickly as possible, because we are quickly running out of time.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please, as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Carrie Baldwin and more on Christian feminism.

An oxymoron?

Right after these messages.

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Welcome back to Iron Sharpens Iron radio and we have a listener named Frances in County Tyrone, Northern

Ireland who has several questions for our guest Kerry Baldwin on Christian feminism,

an oxymoron, and we have her first question is why does your guest never mention the sexual

revolution when she discusses abortion.

Feminism and the sexual revolution are like evil twins?

Chris, I've been looking over this email and pondering it and also looking at the time

that we have left and I just want to say that

I'm happy to answer these questions but I'm probably going to have to answer them mostly off air.

I can put them on my website on Nearliberty .com slash feminism

and I can email Frances directly with these answers.

I'm happy to continue a dialogue with them but I do want to discuss

this question of the sexual revolution and how it relates to abortion and

feminism because that sort of leads into my next point.

So Harrison promotes this idea called embodied reason which

entails five things and the first is this idea that

our sexuality and bodies are to be celebrated rather than depreciated and

respected on grounds of personhood.

Now to the end that this is within the confines of heterosexual marriage I don't disagree

but Harrison goes beyond this.

So she advocates for mutuality rather than ownership.

This is how Marxism comes in to the philosophy.

She argues that sexual rigidity is

supplanted or should be supplanted by sexual fluidity.

This is how homosexuality comes into the conversation and like what we talked about how

pedophilia comes into the conversation.

She argues that we should recognize and honor all sexual expression.

This is where transgenderism and the invention of new genders comes in.

But her fifth and final point is I think

and she says that at the level of social policy

a women's moral agency should be trusted above anyone else's to decide

what responsibility requires especially with respect to procreation.

So that's a quote.

This is where matriarchy comes in which only supplants patriarchy.

Now the question being posed here is how the

sexual revolution relates to feminism and abortion and of course feminism,

I mean the very foundational right that feminists want to uphold is the right to

abort.

And Christian feminism absolutely is in lockstep

in that very same way.

Really?

Wow.

Yes, they are absolutely in lockstep with radical feminism.

I do want to say though that the thing that drives abortion is not the

sexual revolution.

I want to remind your listeners from my previous episode that

the rate of abortion today is lower than it was prior to Roe v. Wade.

And Roe v. Wade was a consequence of the sexual revolution.

Now politically speaking, yes, you have pro -abortion advocates who are

demanding abortion.

When we talk about supply and demand, we're talking about an economic

aspect, not just the vociferous.

But abortion existed long before the sexual revolution existed.

And I think that's important to remember.

Abortion goes back as far as ancient history goes back.

And so it's important to bear in mind that that has been a part

of the sexual revolution.

It may have fueled the right to abortion, but it is not the driving force.

Libertarianism can reduce the cost of motherhood by

reducing the felt need for abortion.

And I would even say that libertarianism raises the

issue of true justice for things like race and

sexuality.

Now she does ask this question about how does libertarianism promote a God -fearing society.

I mean, libertarianism doesn't promote a God -fearing society as such.

But the society that we have right now doesn't promote a God -fearing society, or the government that would

promote a God -fearing society either.

Even many who wear the name conservative don't.

In fact, I watch Fox News a lot.

I do like some of the hosts there very much, and I find some of the

discussion fascinating.

But they seem to be very neutral, if not in favor of

homosexuality.

They have practicing homosexuals host programs on there.

My favorite host, Tucker Carlson, routinely has a professing lesbian

fill in for him, who is more conservative than the average lesbian.

But they seem to be more concerned with fiscal conservatism than they are about

moral issues.

Right.

And I also want to re -emphasize the fact that I do believe

abortion should be illegal.

I don't have a whole lot of faith in the government that we have today to act on

abortion in a just manner.

But again, my goal with the abortion issue

is to end the practice of it, not simply criminalize it.

Yes, criminalization is an aspect.

If we're talking about ending the practice of it, then criminalizing isn't actually going

to.

I would much rather see the incidence of abortion lowered

so that we don't have to deal so much with it.

And I think that will actually promote a more peaceful

society in that regard.

So yes, I do believe it ought to be criminal.

No, I don't believe that that's going to end the economic

side of things.

Now just to clarify a couple of things, when you say that libertarianism does not promote a God -fearing,

orderly, moral society, you're speaking of the fact that it is a political concept and

construct.

That's a separate category.

You're not opposed to something that promotes a God -fearing, orderly, and moral society.

Yeah, absolutely, I want to make that clear.

I mean, libertarian philosophy, my motivations, my ground

motives for supporting a libertarian society does come from

my orthodox, reformed views, but libertarian philosophy

itself doesn't make a statement about religion one way or the other.

And the other thing I wanted to clarify is when you were talking about the felt needs

that women have for abortions, the key word there or key

adjective in regards to needs is felt.

Correct.

Because there are no

justifiable reasons why a woman can murder her unborn child.

Correct.

And also I want to let Frances know that we are in the process of working on an on

-air debate with a friend of mine, Jeff Durbin, who has some disagreement with my guest, Carrie

Baldwin, on the legal issues in regard to abortion.

He is also a libertarian, but of a different stripe, and he does believe in the

criminalization and the punishment of women who have abortions and so on.

And I'm not saying that my guest, Carrie Baldwin, doesn't believe in that at all.

I'm just saying that they have a different view, and keep your eyes and ears open for that debate.

Hopefully that will come to fruition.

We're working on it right now.

But lastly, if you could, should Christian women adopt the feminist label?

Yeah, that's a big question.

So, you know, this goes back to the idea

of defined.

Now, what I tend to hear from Christians, especially conservative Christians, is that we ought to reject

anything that is remotely related to feminism.

And certainly I've painted a picture here that gives us reason to call feminist philosophy into question.

However, I also run into many Christians, both men and women, who as soon as they hear,

quote, they immediately write it off.

The term accidental feminist has been coined by some Christian women, and particularly complementarians,

to identify well -meaning Christian women who've been duped into embracing feminism.

And that's, of course, all thanks to.

Where does this idea that women are so easily influenced by culture come from?

It comes from two places, either,.

A, from feminism who claims the same exact

thing, that women are victims of patriarchy,

and also from some Christian ideas that women are just easily deceived because of Eve.

These are both false ways of looking at women from a Christian perspective.

In many ways, feminism and traditional ideas of womanhood, specifically Victorian

ideas of womanhood, are exactly identical.

Either you're easily deceived by Satan and the world, and so you need a man or husband to protect you, or you're

easily deceived by religion and duped into victimhood, so you need the state to protect you.

Both of these views have, ironically, a derogatory view of women.

Christians ought not have a derogatory view of women.

We are image -bearers of God.

We do have rights, including choosing to become a wife and mother, again, before conception.

We do have agency.

We do have self -ownership.

We do own property.

And none of this can be used to violate the moral will of God, whether you are a man,

because I think it's redundant insofar as—.

Well, I hope that answers Susan from Setauket's other question that she just sent in.

She was a bit confused.

She thought that you were saying that you were a feminist, and that should have answered that question for her.

I hope it does, but I'm happy to dialogue with her.

And the website that you can find out more about Kerry Baldwin is

mereliberty .com, M -E -R -E liberty .com.

Any other contact information?

If anybody else has questions, you can email me at kerry, K -E -R -R -Y, at mereliberty .com, and I'm

happy to answer them.

I want to thank you for being our guest today again, Kerry.

I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write in questions.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you

are a sinner.