April 15, 2019 Show with Kerry Baldwin on “Christian Feminism: Oxymoronic?”

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This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Monday on this 15th day of April 2019 and I'm delighted to have a returning guest today

Kerry Baldwin She is an independent researcher and writer with a

Bachelor of Arts and philosophy and she is the host of the website mere liberty .com

She's a regular contributor for the Libertarian Christian Institute She's a confessionally reformed

Christian and member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church denomination and an outspoken

Libertarian and defender of Christian orthodoxy and she developed the podcasts women

Christianity and libertarianism Dare to think and flashes of Liberty today

We are going to be addressing Christian feminism and oxymoron and our that is my honor and privilege to welcome you

Back to iron sharpens iron radio Kerry Baldwin Thanks, Chris.

I'm really happy to be here again Well, why don't you before we enter into this very controversial subject?

Why don't you tell our listeners again about mere liberty .com? Oh sir, so mere liberty .com

is it's it's my way of talking about philosophy and theology my mission is to challenge paradigms

That is the the way we think about politics religion and culture

And so I do take a I do take a reformed Theological view

I also take a libertarian philosophy of you but I address a lot of Controversial issues like feminism abortion those sorts of things and My goal is to get people on on You know either side of any topic to to really think through to think through those topics, so Great and to tell our listeners about the

Libertarian Christian Institute as well. Oh Yeah, so the the Libertarian Christian Institute Is is much more ecumenical

Obviously, I take a reformed approach there But they do promote libertarian philosophy from a

Christian perspective And you can find them at libertarian Christians calm and of course

Libertarian Christians Very often if not most often have a different approach to certain things than mainstream or secular humanist libertarians libertarians when you consider issues

Like abortion and so on you will have many libertarians because of the fact that they believe in a very small government they will say well a woman should have the right to do whatever she wants with a fetus growing in her womb and they don't think there's anything wrong with that and a

Christian libertarian would take a different approach to that and I I'm assuming you would agree that the differences would lie even amongst libertarian is libertarians in regard to certain social and moral issues in How the law of the land would be utilized in those specific areas

I know that you might think that People have more freedom to do things than your average conservative

Christian might But That's just because they

You believe that they should be not You know, they should not be illegal in certain areas and not

Involve prison time and I'm not I'm going beyond The abortion issue. I know that you believe abortion is murder, but they're right, but there are other things that The average

Christian might be opposed to the legalization of marijuana and other things Whereas I know that libertarians whether they're

Christian or not Seem to regularly have an opposition to the quote -quote war on drugs and that kind of a thing

Right. Well, I'm libertarian Christians. I mean you take the war on drugs as an example

Libertarian Christians might hold that You know using drugs is is immoral and perhaps even sinful

Although there's there's disagreement on that but there's a question about whether or not the government should

Intervene in In things where there there aren't rights violations against other people so, you know if You may the idea is based on the on the idea of self -ownership you own yourself you and your body

And even if it's immoral in the sight of God to harm your own body That's not necessarily a good reason why

The government should should intervene in that So we just draw some distinctions between that you could still hold a view that drugs are are immoral

Not good for you that sort of thing While maintaining that they should still be legal

Right and again going back to the abortion issue a different issue You do believe as we focused our entire interview

Last time with you and Gregory Baus You do believe that that is murder because it's not a woman doing whatever she wants to do with her body

It is another body that we are talking about a human body that happens to be growing with inside her womb right and libertarian

Christians would actually say that it is more logically consistent with libertarian philosophy that we are

That abortion is murder and And that's because of the idea that you have two separate bodies.

The fetus has rights Inherent in itself because it's a separate human

From the mother so libertarian Christians would simply say that they're being more consistent libertarians by by opposing abortion now our issue today is

Christian feminism and oxymoron and And This is obviously another issue that would probably put you at odds with many secular

Libertarians, I'm sure that I'm sure that there are many feminists out there that are Libertarian from a secular humanist standpoint or outside of the

Christian faith, but perhaps before we go into Precursors of what led up to Feminism, can you define feminism for us?

And I know that this may not be one specific definition for that but How would you most readily categorize feminism when that word is used in your own vocabulary?

Yeah, so I'm gonna I'll elaborate on this more On why

I take this definition basically feminists don't agree on what feminism is So you might even find among libertarian

Christians that there are some self -identified Christian feminists who would even disagree with With what

I'm about to talk about as far as what Christian feminism is so but it all comes down to What they're

What the feminist presupposition is which is essentially that women

Are oppressed either intentionally or unintentionally by men? And feminism is the lens by which we can view how to rectify that That's how

I would define feminism. It's it's it's very very broad and There is disagreement within there, but I can kind of As we go along I'll try

I'll try and explain why that is okay, and Before we again before we go on to the precursors to feminism

Would you say that in the 21st century in the United States now?

Obviously there are women who are treated like chattel And there are women who are viewed as very low on the rung of the ladder of importance

There might even be cultures where animals are considered superior to women But when we're talking about in the

United States and North America if we want to broaden it, do you think that there is really? institutionalized

Persecution of women or subjugation of women or That women and of course,

I'm not talking about individual Circumstances where you can have you can have in every neighborhood husbands that keep their wives, you know locked up in the house and they can't do anything without their husband's permission and they are

Women the wives are victims of spousal abuse and I could go on and on but I'm talking about institutionalized

Where it seems that You the the leaders of feminist movements in the media and those who are elected officials

Would act very often as though there's little difference In the

United States today than there was a hundred or two hundred years ago Yeah, so that's an interesting question because There's there has been a lot of Quote -unquote problems that has been added to The category of women's rights now, is there still institutionalized oppression of women?

Yes, I do believe that that exists Though not nearly to the to the degree that it once did

And I Am I almost hesitate to even point this out, but I would say that there are strains of complementarian doctrine which are

Too strong towards the patriarchal view Which would I would categorize this as institutional oppression?

Now I I hesitate to say that just because you know when I talk about complementarianism

The knee -jerk reaction is to Is to think that I'm an egalitarian and I'm not that either

Because the egalitarianism is based on the idea of sameness So You know,

I affirm the differences between men and women Complementarianism affirms the differences between men and women how we qualify those things

We're going to differ on But I reject the view of the egalitarianism that that we are essentially the same

So that may or may not answer your question In so far as you know where to peg me down on that spectrum

I would say I Take the the Orthodox Presbyterian view, which is essentially that women can do anything an unordained man can do

That is not what complementarianism teaches which is why I reject that label

But as far as you know institutionalized oppression in say academia or the workplace or You know government secular institutions.

I would say that that doesn't really Exist at least to the degree that that we've seen it in the past.

No, no backtrack I just want to make sure that our listeners heard you correctly You said that you believe that women in your view have the freedom to do anything an unordained man can do

Isn't that what you said? Yes, correct. I do hold to male -only ordination But you did now when you said that that's an official

Orthodox Presbyterian position Okay, just frequently held

I guess you're saying Because I know

I know I know for instance Orthodox Presbyterian congregations that would never have a woman teach a mixed

Sunday school included adult men for instance yeah, I would say if Sunday school falls on a

Sunday. I Would not have a woman teaching that in fact there was there was a time in my own church

Sunday school not Sunday school women's Bible study was held on a Sunday and I didn't

I didn't attend in part because of that Because a woman let it you mean

Yeah, well woman let it and it was on Sunday. Oh, wow. That's interesting that you would have that view and not be a complementarian interesting

Well, you know, I I I think it's absolutely okay for a woman to teach a mixed audience

I just wouldn't put that in the category of Sunday worship or the Sabbath so but that has to do with I would say that that has to do with Ecclesiology or the study of the church and and how the church how

God orders his church as opposed to Anthropology and you know the way God created man and how

You know how gender plays a role in that I think it has more to do with Ecclesiology than anthropology that makes sense

Yes. All right. I'm gonna give our email address if anybody wants to ask a question of our guest today

It's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris arnzen at gmail .com

Please give us at least your first name your city and state of residence in your country of residence If you live outside the

USA and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter Such as perhaps you have something going on in your own marriage that you're unpleased with in regard to this issue

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Or perhaps something in your your own church Perhaps you disagree with our guest and you'd rather not identify yourself

I can understand some of those things, but if it's not a personal and private matter, then please

At least give us your first name city and state and country of residence. Well, let's go into now some precursors

Of what led up to feminism as we know it today? Right. So usually when we talk about feminism, we're talking about a social movement and it certainly started as a social movement

But the and by the way, I do have notes that I've created for this interview over at mereliberty .com

slash feminism So your listeners can can go there if they want to be those the the resources that I'm going to talk about but so the common understanding

Of feminism is that it started with quote -unquote first -rate feminism

And that was the the women's rights movement and women's suffrage and that sort of thing and But the term first wave feminism wasn't actually coined until 1968 by a woman named

Martha Lear who coined both both terms first wave and second wave feminism and So At any rate the

The first wave Feminism or what? I'm going to call the women's rights movement was actually grounded not in any sort of feminist philosophy

It was grounded in classical liberal classical liberalism, which is the predecessor to libertarianism

So classical liberalism is distinct from what we know today as progressive liberalism a lot of classical liberals have a lot in common with today's conservatives and Libertarians and libertarians right -leaning libertarians, right?

So So I see the the social movement of the of the women's rights movement is

Being an outworking of three major things as far as I can tell the first was of course the development of classical liberalism this is the

The ideas that America was built on which is individual liberty laissez -faire economics

Which is literally hands -off a hands -off economy And of course this was informed by other things like the

Magna Carta the glorious revolution of 1688 the French and American revolutions those sorts of things and so there were several classic liberal thinkers at the time and Two that specifically informed the women's rights movement were

John Locke who had a high regard for for women and in Jean -Jacques

Rousseau Now those two those two men weren't In agreement on on everything and I would say

I'm more in agreement with Locke than I am with Rousseau But at any rate those are sort of Those are the things that were informing classical liberalism at the time so the second thing that Fed into the women's rights movement with the abolitionist movement in America, and this was

This is just sort of the sense that you know, if human rights extend to African slaves then surely they extend to women and so that was sort of a natural a

Natural consequence of the abolitionist movement and then finally The the final part of the women's rights movement

Or the outworking of The women's rights movement was the

Victorian true true woman was the rejection of I should say the Victorian true

True woman and if you actually look at The Victorian true woman, this is sort of an archetype if you will that women were

Not so much instructed but encouraged by by men and women alike to sort of embrace

And she looks very similar to the complementarian idea of biblical womanhood now

The predecessor to the Victorian true woman was was another archetype called the repressed woman

Republican wife and we don't normally talk about the Republican wife a lot of feminists want to talk about The Victorian idea because feminism was a rejection of that But the history of individual liberty in the fight against tyranny was inspired in part by invoking in men a sense of quote public virtue so virtue used to be considered a masculine trait and That was used to inspire resistance against tyranny

But later on after the American Revolution was won there was a need to temper that tendency in men

The the tendency in men to oppose the state And embrace this new

American government and so virtue became a feminine trait Both in the Victorian true woman and the

Republican wife And they were expected to instill a sense of loyalty and public morality back into men

So American women have been Politically socially and economically involved since the founding of America and certainly socially and economically since prior to that, but It's essentially been seen as the job of women in America to civilize men first to get them to temper their tendency to rebel against government

And then second to counterbalance What they thought of is the quote greedy nature of industrialization from capitalism

So capitalism has never been seen as a positive by by American women

And she was also seen as a champion of children and family values and the proper role of women in a free society so those were the things that Really fed into and drove the women's rights movement well,

I could say immediately one of the things that popped into my head when you were talking about a woman's role as Uncivilizing men my late wife

I think felt that was one of her primary roles every time we went every time we went to a restaurant and or ate in public or did anything in public

I Can remember the swift kicks under the table to my shin whenever I was doing something that she deemed to be uncivilized fancy restaurant perhaps at any restaurant

But I know that what you're talking about is far beyond Right Well, you think of the temperance movement the temperance movement was right from this idea that Drinking alcohol was not good for For society mom didn't want their sons growing up to be drunk.

That's right so At any rate and of course, you know, you also had up to the

American Revolution you had about three to four hundred years of Various rebellions that go back to the

Protestant Reformation, you know, the Protestant Reformation wasn't simply a rebellion against Catholic theology or the the

Roman Catholic Church In the religious sense. It was also a Backlash against them as a political entity

And so that had been going on for for three to four hundred years before the

American Revolution and so you you know you you had this

Situation where men had to sort of turn off the rebel against the government thing and turn on this idea of creating a new

Government that we were going to be you know that they were going to be loyal to and if you could contrast between social feminism versus feminist philosophy yeah, so Social feminism is just the social movement.

So this is what you you kind of see in in the world And Rachel Rachel Green Miller was recently interviewed by Colleen Sharp and Angela Whitehorn on theology gals

And she does a great job at explaining the social side of feminism, especially second wave feminism and How the women's rights movement was hijacked by the sexual revolution

So At any rate so then the the social side of that is what you see as far as you know political activism

And in that sort of thing so what I'm addressing is actually The system of thought that grew out of the social movement so the second wave feminism

One of the things that it did was it got women into more academic and intellectual fields like philosophy

So now there are there are several women who sort of proceed

As you know this this movement of women into academia and Most notably is a woman named

Mary Wollstonecraft now Mary Wollstonecraft was born in 1759 in England she was a writer of philosopher and An outspoken advocate of the rights of women she was married to another philosopher named

William Godwin and he was known for his utilitarian defense of Anarchism or what we would call stateless civil governance and incidentally

Mary Wollstonecraft and William Godwin were the mother of were the parents of Mary Shelley who is the author of Frankenstein Yeah, so Mary Wollstonecraft wrote a pamphlet back in 1792

Which was called a Vindication of the rights of women And she

I guess so she's identified with laying the the intellectual groundwork for the women's rights

Movement and this was actually two years after she had written a vindication of the rights of men to Edmund Burke Edmund Burke had written something called the reflections on the revolution in France And he took more of the

The aristocratic side of the the French Revolution many people don't know this but the terms left and right that we use in politics today come directly from the

French Revolution those who stood on the left side of French Parliament represented

Represented individual rights and those who stood on the right side favored the aristocracy and patriarchalism in fact, our listeners will immediately recognize a

Quote that is probably most frequently used in Especially by conservatives in the political arena

The only thing necessary for the for triumph for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

That is a quote from Edmund Burke. That's probably what most people will remember him For yes.

Yes. Yeah, so she was She was responding to To Burke sort of assessment of the

French Revolution now What what's interesting is that? Patriarchy the term patriarchy at the time was referring to something called the divine right of kings

Which is the idea that monarchs held inherently divine mandates by God to rule? No This idea actually goes all the way back to ancient

Rome and quote father rule But Patriarchalism is what John Locke sort of blew out of the water when he wrote the second treatise of government

And Locke was born and raised in a Calvinist home Now when you contrast that with today patriarchy

Has become more of a pejorative word to mean something some kind of subconscious maniacal and Uncontrollable desire in men to to control and rule women

Now, I don't think it's I don't think it's accurate to paint all men in this fashion, which some feminists have done

But it's also not entirely unreasonable given the curse of the

Fallen Genesis 316 And so, you know, there's there's somewhat of a balance that that we need to You know be able to agree upon as far as the

How how bad it can get between men and women I mean that is that is the direct result of the fall

Over simplifying oversimplifying or overgeneralizing and calling all men you know misogynist or things like that is is

Is Irrational and ridiculous, but we shouldn't completely reject that that has been a part of our history, right just like the issue of Racism if everything is racist than nothing is and the same thing with misogyny.

Here we go hand in hand I mean it becomes the boy or the girl who cried wolf after a while when when people make

Accusations over and over and over again to the point when they're laughably ridiculous Then you're just not going to take those people seriously anymore.

And unfortunately many people won't even take Any accusation of these things seriously anymore?

Right. Yeah, there's there's a lot of a lot of what feminism does is I think it's a service to women unfortunately

In fact, you know, I'm sure that you heard of the hashtag me too movement that came out

About a year ago year and a half ago At any rate I guess maybe it's more than that two years ago anyways they actually did a study on the me too movement, which was intended to raise the awareness of Sexual harassment sexual assault against women and The study that they did was that the way so it what it showed was that the way in which women were

Talking about the me too movement and sort of over doing this over Generalization thing and man -hating thing it actually had me to had an opposite effect of what it was intended to do and so now it's not taken as seriously as as They originally wanted it to be well when we return from our very first break.

I want you to Answer the question. What is feminism? What is Christian feminism and how does it fit in and You can respond when we come back if anybody else would like to join us on the air

With a question our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris Arnzen a gmail .com

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.nyc Have a great day. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen If you just tuned us in today, our guest is

Carrie Baldwin, and she is discussing Christian feminism and oxymoron

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

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USA and Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter

We do have a listener before I have you answer the question. What is Christian feminism and how does it fit in?

we do have a question from a listener Susan and so talk at Long Island has a question and I'm looking

I'm looking for it right now I just had it right in front of me for the before the commercial.

Here it is Okay, Susan and so talk at Long Island says How does the use of the word feminism and all its connotations apply to a woman to a woman?

who claims to be an orthodox and reformed Christian and she has a

Another question that I will have you answer after you answer this one All right the word feminism actually in its original use

It came from mid 1800s. All it means is the qualities of being female

But this term has evolved over time To mean something

Quite different so how it applies to somebody who is orthodox and reformed

That's It really depends. I mean, I don't personally Label myself a feminist and I think that you know towards the end of this

I'll be able to explain why that's the case if if feminism essentially a feminism means fighting for the rights of women and Those rights are defined in a classically liberal way.

I would say feminism is a redundant term But that's not typically how it's used it's typically used to To to presume that that our society

And men in particular have created these these structures that are

Inherently anti -woman And so feminism is sort of the attempts to fix all of that So I don't personally take on the label because That that latter distinction

I think is is not a sound philosophy And the former distinction as it applies to classical liberalism

I would say is is redundant and you know, it's simply sufficient to call yourself libertarian or even classically liberal and And Susan's second question is do not libertarians support the freedom from government intervention on Individual choice which may include sexual preference et al.

How does that jive with Orthodox Christianity? So Libertarianism is a legal philosophy.

It doesn't actually make a statement about Sexual orientation or gender identity

The fact that there are libertarians who ascribe to that view is more personal preference than relating to Libertarian philosophy, so it's just as reasonable for a

Christian libertarian to come along and say that you know There are only two genders

Homosexuality is a sin marriages is an institution. That's only for a man and a woman in those sorts of things those those

Orthodox beliefs are not incompatible with with libertarianism now

My friend who is now in heaven William Norman Grigg who was a

Christian constitutionalist libertarian He although he believed that homosexuality is a damnable sin

He was not trying to be soft on this sin, but he believed that the government should not intrude upon two men or two women who desire to be married just as He doesn't he did not believe the government should be a part of anyone's marriage even heterosexual.

Yeah now Now this now this is what I I have told a lot of people in this regard the the bigger problem with same -sex marriage is that it imposes upon people who are

Christians and even Orthodox Jews and Muslims and others who have a biblically correct view on Marriage being only between a man and a woman.

Of course, there are Muslims who believe in polygamy and so I don't want to go into that but but as far as those that believe in a

Being only between a man and a woman one man and one woman The the laws that are snowballing and becoming bigger and bigger and bigger in protection of same -sex marriage are intruding on our rights because we are being forced in many venues of life and many spheres of life to Accept two men as being a married couple

Legally depending upon what we do for a living and so on I mean, isn't this really where the main problem is in regard to this because like for instance, even though I believe homosexuality is unnatural and abominable and damnable if two men wanted to have some kind of a ceremony in their backyard where a

High priestess waves a wand over them and considers the married I'm not going to call the police and have them be arrested and so on But I don't want to be forced to recognize them as a married couple right yeah, so I this is a little bit of a tangent, but You know the marriage license in America was introduced

Not So that government could protect marriage

As we typically think about it It was actually introduced because the government didn't like the idea of interracial marriage

So a license legally speaking is a permission And so when you go to you know

Your courthouse to get a marriage license You are literally asking the state if it's okay for you to get married

Christian Christian libertarians look at this and go Marriage is a covenant between a husband and wife and God and we don't need the state's permission to do it and so and certainly nobody else should get the state's permission to do it and you know the the interesting thing about this is

You know since since The marriage license has now been

Available to homosexual couples the big fear right now is legitimizing pedophilia right and I want to explain why this is actually this is cause for concern because prior to And this is still legal today in many states

Child marriage is legal and has been legal And it's been defended from a

Christian perspective now I think you and I as Reformed believers would say no

Child marriage is not okay, but historically it has been defended from a

Christian perspective But that was obviously you know heterosexual in that you know it was it was a man and a girl

For example, that's the most common Example of child marriage and so, you know the idea is is that if If a child can get married to an adult in child marriage and that has been legal and now

We've legalized Gay marriage then the next obvious Logical step is that child marriage between The same sexes same sexes should also be legal and that's what pedophilia is so it actually

It actually doesn't protect marriage to have a marriage license we can we can protect

Christian marriage better By by getting the state out of it entirely

Right. I you know, you've you've educated me on this I did not know that the marriage license was first instituted to prevent interracial marriage

I thought it had something to do with preventing bigamy not Polygamy necessarily, but the man who would have more than one wife without the knowledge of those quote -unquote wives

Getting married to another woman behind your first wife's back, etc That's what I thought it was

But wouldn't that be one at least legitimate reason to have the government in some way involved in a marriage to protect?

Women from being defrauded by men who are marrying other women You know, it's

That basically falls under contract law and libertarianism does have a system that supports contract law and so You know you would have

In a in a libertarian society, you would have you know, a man and a woman who want to get married

They would enter into a contract that contract is something that that you create

And in that contract could be provisions that you know

Talk about what happens if you know one spouse or the other is found in another

Relationship so that would just be handled by contract law and dealt with through You know stateless civil magistrates so to speak

But you don't need a state to issue a license in order to accomplish that speed. That's that's the whole point well, we have to go to our midway break right now, and I want you to continue on the same theme of The last question that I asked

What is Christian feminism and how does it fit in? When we return and this is our longer than normal break because grace life radio 90 .1

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnson If you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours With a little less than an hour to go is

Carrie Baldwin. We are discussing Christian feminism and oxymoron and If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is

Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com Please give us your first name at least

Your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the USA only remain anonymous

If your question involves a personal and private matter before we return to our discussion we just have a couple of important announcements to make in regard to upcoming events that we hope that you take advantage of First of all tomorrow at 3 p .m.

Eastern Time Ligonier ministries is going to be airing a live

Podcast called ask Ligonier with Burke Parsons Burke Parsons Who is now the pastor of st.

Andrew's Chapel in Florida there in Sanford, Florida He was the assistant pastor to the late

RC Sproul and is now the senior pastor there and if you go to Ligonier Go to their their main website

Which is Ligonier org l -i -g -o -n -i -e -r org

You can find out more about ask Ligonier with Burke Parsons live at 3 p .m.

Eastern Time tomorrow and Coming up after that There is a conference called

Dort 400 celebrating the 400th anniversary of the Synod of Dort and I hope as many of you as possible can attend this event

Which is being held at the Trinity Protestant Reformed Church in Hudsonville, Michigan from Thursday April 25th to Saturday April 27th and this is on as I said the 400th anniversary of the the

Synod of Dort and speakers include professor Ronald Kaminga Professor Ron Barrett Gritters professor or Reverend Ryan Heisinger Professor Doug Kuiper who's going to be our guest again for the second time on our interprets on radio coming up soon

Reverend Bill Langerak Reverend Mark Shand and Reverend Angus Stewart If you would like to attend this event go to Dort 400 org and Dort is spelt

D as in David Or D as in David T 400 org and You can get all the information that you need to attend this event.

Then after that on Thursday May 23rd

Right here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. I am having the next iron sharpens iron radio spring pastors luncheon

This is a free event to all men in ministry leadership We do not invite

Women who are in the clergy we do not invite the wives of pastors This is specifically a men's luncheon and if you would like to join us whether you are a pastor an elder and I believe that those are the same office a deacon a leader in a parachurch organization

Then please email me at Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com and put pastors luncheon in the subject line and you'll be registered for this free event and You will not only get free food

But you will also be able to hear dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary the professor of apologetics in Islam Give a message on how the

Dead Sea Dead Sea Scrolls vindicate the reliability of the Holy Scriptures That's Thursday May 23rd 11 a .m.

To 2 p .m. At the Carlisle fire and rescue banquet hall here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania Nearly every major Christian publisher in the

United States in the United Kingdom has donated free books For free brand new books for every pastor that attends.

These are books that I personally choose for my guests and I get a hundred of each of the titles

I choose from these publishers so that every man Can get every one of the books donated to us.

So you're getting everything for free This was the strict policy of my precious late wife

Julie who? Came up with these pastors luncheons in the 1990s even before I had my own radio program.

I have been in radio advertising sales since the 1980s and My late wife recognized that I had more pastor friends than the typical

Christian most of my friends actually are pastors, so she said why don't you have a

Luncheon a free luncheon where you just treat men to a day of rest relaxation fun fellowship food and Have a guest speaker there and get books donated to give away to these men.

And so we've been doing this since the Early 1990s and when my wife went home to be with the Lord I have continued these luncheons and I am continuing her

Requirements which I agreed with a hundred percent that there were to be no ulterior motives. There's not anything sold at these luncheons

There's no hidden agenda. This is purely as a treat to pastors, and I hope that If you are a pastor or man in ministry leadership, you can attend

Just send me that email to Chris Ornson at gmail .com and put pastors luncheon in the subject line

That's for Thursday, May 23rd 11 a .m. To 2 p .m. At the Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall Carlisle, Pennsylvania I would love to see you there.

Dr. Tony Costa will also be after he leaves, Pennsylvania the following day he will be speaking at Several churches on Long Island, New York and you can email me for information on those speaking engagements.

He's going to be speaking Friday night and Saturday morning at the New Hyde Park Baptist Church in Western Nassau County, Long Island then on Saturday evening at 6 p .m.

He'll be speaking at Waiting River Baptist Church in Suffolk County, Long Island and then on Sunday morning he is

Going to be speaking at the Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York.

That's at 11 a .m. And then finally Sunday at 6 p .m.

Of that weekend. That would be the 26th of May He will be speaking at Missio Church of Ridge, Long Island, New York and I can get you all of the

Information that you need on all of those speaking engagements. If you send me an email to Chris Ornson at gmail .com

Then I am going to be heading to immediately after that I'm going to be heading to Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania for the

Banner of Truth East Coast ministers conference May 28th through the 30th in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania at The Elizabethtown College that's

Tuesday, May 28th through Thursday, May 30th The theme is I believe in the Holy Spirit and the speakers include

Jeff Kingswood Terry Johnson David Vaughn Stephen Nichols Michael Morales and Chad Vegas That's the

East Coast ministers conference of the Banner of Truth on I believe in the Holy Spirit If you want more information about this conference go to banner of truth org banner of truth org

Click on events and then scroll down to East Coast ministers conference And then

I am going to later on in the year in December on December 19th and 20th.

I will be attending The foundations conference, which is a conference run by the

Banner of Truth and The foundations conference is a wonderful conference that I have attended for several years and I love it

Every time I go, I hope that you will attend and look me up while you there the speakers include.

Dr Stephen J Lawson who you just heard earlier on an advertisement promoting

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Wednesday, but next Wednesday May 24th So keep your eyes and ears open for that mark that down on your calendar for Jeff Thomas's return to iron chirping's iron radio

Reverend Armin Tomasian who is an extraordinary preacher and I as I keep saying

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Thoroughly blessed by hearing him preach wherever he preaches if you make the effort to hear him And I hope that you make the effort to be there in New York City to hear him where I will be

December 19th and 20th and then also Richard Caldwell jr. And Anthony Quigley are on the roster I have not yet heard them preach, but I am sure

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Outside of the USA, please only remain anonymous if your question involves personal and private matter and now we are going back

To have our guest Kerry Baldwin expand upon the question. What is

Christian feminism and how does it fit in? Thanks Chris, so Christian feminism is actually articulated in something called

Christian feminist ethics Which I'll get into a second into in a second, sorry

It's essentially a defense of feminism from a quote Christian perspective it involves the question of whether gender roles in society are moral or not and whether those and where those roles have been perceived to be created by men they

Must therefore not only be inherently immoral but inherently flawed. So that's sort of That's that's sort of the idea now to explain how this all works.

I want to explain something about philosophy in general so Philosophy is actually a a very well -developed structure of different fields of philosophical study

Schools of thought and historical overviews. So the various fields of study are things like metaphysics epistemology

Praxeology logic and so on and then you have these subfields Ethics would be a subfield of something called value theory

Now this this tree of the fields of study are then studied through the lens of various schools of thought and And Usually a philosopher will stick with mastering one school of thought or over over another

So they might delve into those other schools, but then you also have the historical overview of all these of all these fields and schools, which is

Western Middle Eastern Asian and so forth. So this is important because feminism began as a subfield of value theory

But it's morphed into something much larger, which I'll touch touch on in a minute

But the first feminist system of thought was known as feminist care ethics and this was created

Or articulated in the 1980s and Christian feminist feminist ethics is a development of this ostensibly from a biblical perspective now

Historically this actually makes a lot of sense for them to start here because remember American women had been given the social charge of defending morality piety

Particularly attempting to influence men You know against You know revolution in and Counteracting quote -unquote greedy capitalism even recivilizing

Soldiers who return home from war that's also been placed on on Women so it makes sense that they start with ethics and by the way, this is also why feminists tend to be more socialist and even why conservative women

Who may advocate for capitalism still believe in a regulated market, which is really just socialism light and that's because The women's rights movement

And and feminism were really responding to the

Victorian era which was Coincided with with industrialization and in the industrial era

So it's morphed into Morphed into something that that's much larger now

I would actually say that that feminism is no longer just the system of ethics

It's become probably a school of thought and and even a historical overview

The the premise of feminism However, is that these older philosophies and schools and such are inherently flawed

Because they're derived from the male mind So this is a problem for feminism either because it's merely an absence

Or an absence of a female voice or because men have coercively dominated now,

I will say that Philosophy today is wide open to women and feminist philosophers philosophers have been left scratching their heads over The fact that philosophy is still heavily male dominated

Some still want to say that misogyny exists I personally have not

Experienced that sort of thing from male philosophers and I know there's a lot of female philosophers who who agree with me.

So But feminist care ethics was created because women had held this this role of being

So it started out with Women being held to a higher ethical standard and it somehow morphed into this idea that women are morally superior to men

So At any rate feminist philosophy began with this with this

Premise that men and women are actually inherently different and that our differences Make our contributions valuable.

So this is actually known as gender essentialism, which is derived from Plato in ancient Greek and Roman culture

So How does this play into Christian feminism There are many men and women in philosophy today who would call themselves

Feminists and I'm sure that there are many leaders in their given fields But the philosopher I want to focus on is a woman named

Beverly Wildung Harrison And she's known as the quote mother of Christian feminist ethics.

She died in 2012 She held a doctor of philosophy from Union Theological Seminary in New York City.

She was a member of the PC USA and She wrote three books two of which

I'm sort of drawing on today the first book that she wrote was in 1983 called our right to choose it was regarded as quote groundbreaking for its fine -tuned feminist methodology and Then in 1985 she published making connections which actually connects

Christian feminism to Marxism So feminist ethics

I take to be the heart of feminism broadly Because feminism is questioning the morality of social constructs between men and women

Even though you have these other feminist categories like some of its bioethics and and feminist epistemology and things like that Feminist ethicists

Disagree on one relevant question, which is that of written religious affiliation?

So it's specifically this question of should women associate with religious systems that has been

Created by men to quote rationalize female inferiority So women like me for example who do support the rights of women albeit articulated by libertarianism rather than feminism

Who also holds to a religious tradition of Christianity that has at times?

rationalized my inferiority as a woman And Even though I reject such a rationalization as being incompatible with my tradition in this case

Calvinism I and those like like me are to be considered anathema as as a woman by feminists they actually

Actually argue that that I'm not it actually violates my own integrity as a woman to hold to a traditional

Christian theology so Harrison takes a somewhat nuanced approach

She says on the one hand if you hold to the values of human life and justice

You're inextricably bound to the Christian tradition So you can even not

Identify as a Christian And if you hold to you can see the value of human life and justice then you're bound to that tradition and on the other

Hand she affirms that women ought not Associate with traditions who has in the past rationalized female inferiority

So in other words, she's essentially saying You are still a Christian based on your own humanism

And I guess this doesn't really surprise me coming from a member of the PC USA And just for our listeners know what that is.

It's the Presbyterian Church USA, which is the most liberal Presbyterian denomination that I'm aware of anyway, there may be others that I'm not aware of there are even more liberal you do have some holdouts that are

Bible believing Christians who believe in the inerrancy of Scripture and so on who are

Truly evangelical and some who are truly reformed as well Although ironically,

I think that that the evangelical PC USA pastors I've met tend to be more Arminian than reformed which is ironic since they were

Presbyterian, but But but just wanted to let our listeners know where you were coming from when you were mentioning that denomination.

Yeah. Thank you for that So there there's there are many things in common with mainstream ethics that Christian Christian feminist ethics has

And I won't get into all of that, but I want to discuss two significant differences, so like mainstream ethics feminist ethics is justice centered feminists extend that justice to ideas of equality and Justice in the workplace and justice of Needs this is where welfare would come in and then legal entitlement that would be more like You know creating laws for affirmative action as an as an example

But where mainstream ethics tend to define what we what we would call procedural norms

That is inequality of opportunity The Which is the opportunity for work and legal rights and so on Feminism goes beyond this to what we call the two substantive norms or what they call substantive norms

That is social institutional change and this is inequality of outcome

So in the former we would say that a man and a woman applying for the same job should be weighed equally according to say the value they can contribute to That company

Feminism says that the woman should be given more weight if women are not equally represented in that company to begin with So their sense of justice is not about opportunity.

It's about outcome And then the second difference lays or lies in the in the idea of objectivity

Feminist ethics claims to be objective they claim to strive for it one problem with the question of justice is whether justice is fair and Fairness, I don't believe is objective

Again, this is talking about opportunity versus outcome Harrison actually believes that Objectivity is a social construct created by the male mind

Against the female mind which tends to be more emotional So they reject any sort of natural law theory that is the idea that what is good is commanded by God and Morality is grounded in reason which natural man is able to discover for Discover from nature form it maintaining the natural order.

So even though Say Austrian Economic theory isn't

Christian, which I think it's true it is Grounded in a concept of natural law.

They would actually reject Austrian economic Austrian economic theory on its face just because it's connected with natural law theory

So they also reject the idea of complementarity Or the design of anything by God is creator

Obviously, they're taking aim at Christianity here and though You know, we talked before about how

I reject the idea of complementarianism I Would hold to complementarity and the design by God as creator

I would just qualify that a little bit differently. They actually reject those things outright

Now if you're like me, you're probably thinking well, what the heck about what's what's the deal about abortion

How you know Christian feminists claim to hold a human life and justice in high esteem

And we would think it would logically follow that that would cause them to reject abortion

So they believe a woman's moral agency Involves exercising reproductive rights now if this

Simply meant the right of a woman to determine whether or not she wants to conceive offspring

I would agree with it. Our self -ownership does give us the right to reject motherhood prior to conception

So we have the right to take any and all measures to prevent conception But once conception has taken place

I would argue that a woman's risk that a woman is responsible for failing to prevent conception And she doesn't have the right to take the life of the fetus

Christian feminists go beyond this They posit The idea that women have a divine right to determine which life gets born into the world

That they argue that a woman must be free to take into consideration Other lives or what they would call the common good other lives in her care including her own life and if she determines that it's unwise or Impractical or creates a financial hardship that she is acting morally in aborting her baby

Because she is considering the quote common good or thinking of the well -being of others including herself first So remember their sense of justice is based on outcome not opportunity

They don't believe that the fetus has a right to the opportunity of life

If the perceived outcome is socially unjust either for the baby or the common good of others

Who may be affected by the baby's birth including that of the mother? Now Harrison actually creates some categories for abortion, which

I think are more accurate. I agree with You know normally we categorize

Positions on abortion in terms of pro -life and pro -choice. She changes that a little and she has three categories.

She has Anti -abortion which is the stance that abortion is always unethical and on the opposite side

It's pro -abortion, which is the stance that The decision to abort is always ethical and then all of the variants in between Whether we would call that pro -life or pro -choice or what she calls the compromisers category so this is everything from pro -life with extreme exceptions to exceptions for age of gestation to The idea of safe legal and rare and even abortion on demand in Harrison's estimation is a compromised position for its capitalistic system of Availability so the

Christian feminists She wants to argue that women not are not merely purchasing a service available on the market

Which is a very capitalist way of thinking but that having an abortion Or that by having an abortion

She is exercising an ethical act as a superior moral agent so that's sort of what

Christian feminist ethics is Well, we have to go to our final break right now It's going to be much more brief than the last one and I have forwarded some questions to you from a listener in County Tyrone, Northern Ireland of Francis.

I've already forwarded a few questions from her to you Carrie so you could look those over during our final break if anybody else wants to ask a question

I would send it in as quickly as possible because we are quickly running out of time That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Please as always give us your first name at least your city and state of residence And your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Carrie Baldwin and more on Christian feminism

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Welcome back to iron sharpens iron radio and we have a listener named Francis in County Tyrone, Northern Ireland who has several questions for our guest

Kerry Baldwin on Christian feminism an oxymoron and we have her first question is why does your guest never mention the sexual?

Revolution when she discusses abortion feminism and the sexual revolution are like evil twins

So Chris, I'm I've been looking over this email and pondering it and also looking at the time that we have left and I just want to say that I'm I'm happy to answer these questions, but I'm probably going to have to have to answer them mostly off -air

I can put them on my website on near Liberty comm slash feminism

And I can email Francis directly with these answers. I'm happy to continue a dialogue with them

But I do want to discuss this question of the sexual revolution and how it relates to Abortion and feminism because that sort of leads into my next point from from Christian feminist ethics, so Harrison promotes this idea called embodied reason which

Entails five things and the first is this idea that our

Sexuality and bodies are to be celebrated rather than depreciated and respected on grounds of personhood now

To the end that this is within the confines of heterosexual marriage I don't disagree but Harrison goes beyond this so she advocates for mutuality rather than ownership

This is how Marxism comes in to the philosophy. She argues for She she argues that sexual

Rigidity is supplanted or should be supplanted by sexual fluidity. This is how homosexuality comes into the conversation

And like what we talked about how that How pedophilia comes into the conversation?

She argues that we should recognize and honor all sexual expression, this is where transgenderism and the invention of new genders comes in but the her fifth and final point is

I think Most poignant and she

She says that at the level of social policy a woman's moral agency should be trusted above Anyone else's to decide what responsibility requires especially with respect to procreation

So that's a quote. This is where Matriarchy comes in which only supplants patriarchy now

The the the question being posed here is how the sexual revolution relates to feminism and abortion and Of course feminism.

I mean the very foundational right that feminists want to uphold is the right to abort and Christian feminism

Absolutely is in lockstep with Radical feminism in that in that very same way really would yes

Yes, they are absolutely and in lockstep with radical feminism I do want to say though that the thing that drives abortion is not the sexual revolution

I want to you know remind your listeners from from a previous episode

That the rates of abortion today is lower than it was prior to Roe v.

Wade And Roe v. Wade was a consequence of the sexual revolution now Politically speaking.

Yes You have pro abortion advocates who are demanding abortion up to up to birth

But when we talk about supply and demand We're talking about an economic aspect not just You know the vociferous demand from political activists

But abortion existed long before the sexual revolution existed And I think that's important to remember abortion goes back as far as as ancient history goes back and So it's important to bear in mind that that that has been a part of society from from a long time ago the sexual revolution

May have fueled the right to abortion but it is not the driving force in the supply and demand of Abortion what what is the the driving force with the supply and demand of abortion has to do with the felt need for?

Abortion and that's where I say where I suggest that libertarianism can solve this problem by reducing the cost of motherhood by reducing the felt need for abortion and I would even say that Libertarianism raises the salience of violence against women so that women can actually receive true justice

For things like rape and sexual assault which should be incredibly costly crime

Now she does ask this question about how does libertarian promote a God -fearing Society I Mean libertarianism doesn't promote a

God -fearing society As such but the society that we have right now

It doesn't promote a God -fearing or the government that was that we have now doesn't promote a God -fearing society either

Even many even many who wear the the name conservative Don't in fact on I I watch

Fox News a lot I I do like some of the the hosts there very much and I find some of the discussion fascinating but they are

Seem to be very neutral if not in favor of Homosexuality they have homosexual they have practicing homosexuals host programs on There my favorite host

Tucker Carlson routinely has a professing lesbian Fill in for him who is more conservative than the average lesbian

But they seem to be more concerned with fiscal conservatism than they are about moral issues

Right, and I also want to Re -emphasize the fact that I do believe abortion should be

Illegal I Don't have a whole lot of faith in the government that we have today to actually execute any sort of prohibition against abortion in a just manner but again, my

My goal with with the abortion issue is to end the practice of it not simply

Criminalize and criminalize it. Yes criminalization is an aspect of it but if we're talking about ending the practice of it, then

Criminalizing isn't actually going to end the practice of it. And I would much rather see

The incidence of abortion lowered so that we don't have to deal so much with the criminal aspect and and I think that will actually

Promote a more peaceful Society in that regard.

So yes, I do believe it ought to be criminal No, I don't believe that that's going to end the practice.

And so I'm more interested in the economic side of things Now just to clarify a couple of things

When you say that libertarianism does not promote a God -fearing orderly moral society.

You're speaking of the fact that it is a political Concept and construct that's a separate category.

You're not Opposed to something that promotes a God -fearing orderly and moral society.

Yeah No, yeah Absolutely. I want to make that clear. I mean a libertarian philosophy my my my motivations my ground motives for for supporting and for supporting a libertarian society does come from my

My orthodox reformed views but libertarian philosophy itself is

Doesn't make a statement about religion one way or the other and the other thing I wanted to clarify is when you were talking about The felt needs that woman women have for abortions the the key word there or key

Adjective in regards to needs is felt Correct because these are not

There are no justifiable Reasons why a woman can murder her unborn child

Correct. Yeah, right and also I want to let Francis know that we are in the process of working on an on -air debate

With a friend of mine Jeff Durbin who has some disagreement with my guest Carrie Baldwin on The legal issues

In regard to abortion. He is also a libertarian but of a different stripe and he does believe in the

Criminalization and the punishment of women who have abortions and so on and I'm not saying that my guest

Carrie Baldwin doesn't believe in that at all I'm just saying that they have a different view and keep your eyes and ears open for that debate

Hopefully that will come to fruition. We're working on it right now, but Lastly if you could

Should Christian women adopt the feminist label? Yeah, that's that's a big question.

So you know this goes back to the idea of How feminism is defined now what

I tend to hear from Christians Especially conservative Christians is that we ought to reject anything that is remotely related to feminism and certainly

I've painted a picture here That gives us reason to call feminist philosophy into question however

I also run into many Christians both men and women who as soon as they hear quote women's rights or some variation

Thereof they immediately write it off the term Accidental feminist has been coined by some

Christian women and particularly complementarians to identify Well -meaning Christian women who've been duped into embracing feminism

And that's of course all thanks to our feminist culture But where does this idea that women are so easily influenced by by culture come from it comes from two places either?

a from feminism who claims the same exact thing women as Giving the same exact thing that that women are victims of patriarchy and Also from some

Christian ideas that women are just easily deceived because of Eve These are both false ways of looking at women from a

Christian perspective in Many ways feminists and feminism and traditional ideas of womanhood specifically

Victorian ideas of womanhood are exactly identical either you're easily deceived by Satan and the world and so you need a man or husband to protect you or You're easily deceived by religion and duped into victimhood

So you need the state to protect you both of these views have ironically their derogatory view of women

Christians ought not have a derogatory view of women. We are image bearers of God.

We do have rights Including choosing to become a wife and mother again before conception.

We do have agency We do have self -ownership we do on property and none of this can be used to violate the moral will of God whether you are a man or a woman so I don't personally take on the label feminist because I think it's redundant as in so far as What rights are but beyond that I would say it's very dangerous to take on that label because it means something that's anti -christian

Well, I hope that answers Susan from Satokits Other question that she just sent in she was a bit confused

She thought that you were saying that you were a feminist and that should have Answered that question for her.

I hope it does, but I'm happy to dialogue with her, you know Off the interview for sure and the website that you can find out more about Carrie Baldwin is mereliberty .com

M -E -R -E liberty .com any other contact information? If anybody else has questions, you can email me at Carrie K -E -R -R -Y at mereliberty .com

and I'm happy to answer them. I want to thank you for being our guest today again, Carrie I want to thank everybody who listened especially those who took the time to write in questions