The Eternal Security of the Believer

Alpha and Omega Ministries presents the Dividing Line radio broadcast. The Apostle Peter commanded all Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence.

The Dividing Line is brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries, Calvary Press Publishers, the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church, and Bethany House Publishers. Your host is Dr. James White, Director of Alpha and Omega Ministries and an Elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now by dialing 1 -888-TALK -960. That's 1 -888-TALK -960. And now with today's topic, here is James White.

Good afternoon and welcome to The Dividing Line. My name is James White in a little bit better voice than I was last week, feeling a whole lot better. I can still hit the bass notes a little bit better than I could before.

That'll probably clear up, but I wouldn't mind if it didn't, to be perfectly honest with you. Those bass notes, I enjoy singing them anyways. But it's good to have you with us today. Today on the program we'll go back and basically finish up the series of programs we were doing over the past two weeks.

We had as our special guest Bill Webster, and we dealt with the issue of Roman Catholicism and church history and the papacy, and we enjoyed the phone calls and the give and take last week. Next week we're going to start a new series of programs.

I'm going to start looking at the subject of the deity of Christ. I hope especially if you ever have the opportunity of talking with some of those folks who show up on your doorstep frequently on a Saturday morning, frequently before you're actually presentable.

And they have the little book bag, and they have the Watchtower and Awake magazines that they want to offer to you, and they want to talk about Armageddon and all that neat, fine, wonderful stuff like that.

Well, if you've ever taken the time to try to deal with those folks and talk with them, then you know it is not an easy task to do that. And so I hope you will be with us over the next few weeks as we look at the deity of Christ, look at some of the passages that come up in discussing the deity of Christ, and then we're going to have a debate on air.

Dr. Thomas Holland is a King James-only advocate, and he has agreed to undertake to present the idea that the King James Version presents the deity of Christ more clearly, fully, than any other English translation.

Dr. Holland believes that it is God's preserved word in English, and that other translations do not preserve the truth on that issue and other issues. And so we will look at those key passages over the next couple of weeks, but then we will also take the time to discuss the translational issue.

And that's a good idea because of the fact that we have to deal with translational issues because of the New World Translation of Jehovah's Witnesses. There's a lot of information running around out there about this particular topic, and so I hope you'll be tuning in over the next couple of weeks and have the opportunity of being blessed and prepared in doing apologetics and in giving an answer for the hope that's within us.

We'll also be announcing a little bit later on in the program today, we have a seminar coming up in March, and I hope you get your calendar out so that when we give you the details on that, you can write that in and be with us as we help you to prepare to witness to Mormons as well.

Eternal Security and the Perseverance of the Saints

But this week on The Dividing Line, we finish up the series we were doing on the Gospel itself by looking at the concluding subject, a subject that always gets people talking, gets people interested, and that is the subject of the perseverance of the saints, or as it's more normally referred to, eternal security.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon said, we say, Christ so died that he infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number, who through Christ's death not only may be saved, but are saved, must be saved, and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved.

Spurgeon's words point us really to, I think, the central issue in talking about eternal security, or as I would rather put it, the perseverance of the saints. The fundamental issue to always keep in the forefront of your thinking when thinking about this particular issue is simply this, does God save perfectly in Christ, or does he not?

Does God save perfectly in Christ, or does he not? That really is the issue when addressing this topic. Now I know I have been involved in innumerable debates, not in the sense of formal debates. We did do a formal debate against a former Protestant turned Roman Catholic by the name of Jerry Matitix on this subject back in 1990, actually here in the Valley.

So we have debated it formally. But I've been engaged in innumerable informal debates, whether it has been in written format, whether it has been on the phone, in person, however it might be, with individuals who deny that salvation is eternal, who specifically assert that a person can be truly born again, truly saved, truly one of Christ's sheep, and yet not obtain eternal redemption, and that is they lose their salvation.

I know the passages. I know Hebrews 6. I know 2 Peter 2. I know Hebrews 10. I know all the passages that go back and forth. Well, why would the Bible warn us to test ourselves to see whether we're in the faith?

Yada, yada, yada, yada, yada. And if you hold that position, you probably go, yeah, I've heard John 10. I've heard John 6, yada, yada, yada, yada, yada. Unfortunately, that's about as far as most conversations on this subject end up going.

That's about as far and in-depth as the conversation becomes. But we must keep in mind, if we really want to understand this issue, and if we really want to come to a firm conclusion on this issue, that we dare not judge this issue by our emotions, we dare not judge this issue by our experience, we dare not judge the truth of God's Word by, well, I knew someone once and they did this.

That is not a solid basis for Christian theology. We must go to the Word of God and we must recognize that the issue of the eternal security of the believer, the issue of whether the faith that saves is a faith that lasts because it's a gift from God, is simply the concluding issue of a more basic and fundamental question, and that is, is it God who saves or is God dependent upon man for salvation?

That is, does God create a plan that man then works and it's up to man ultimately as to whether salvation will actually take place? If you start from that premise, if you don't believe that it's God is the one who saves, then I don't know how you could ever believe in eternal security or the perseverance of the saints.

There's no foundation for it. I know many people who do. I know many, a fundamental independent Baptist who will go to the mat on eternal security, who will deny the sovereignty of God in salvation, total depravity, the unconditional electing grace of God, the perfection of the work of Christ in the atonement, and the irresistible grace of God in bringing about regeneration, but they will say that you're eternally secure.

Now, I don't think that makes any sense. There's no solid or logical or biblical foundation for saying it, but that's what takes place. I've encountered it many times. The fundamental issue in this subject is, is it God who saves or is it man?

Now, we've already established, at least from our perspective, that it is God who saves. He has an elect people. Christ dies perfectly in their behalf. His death is substitutionary in their behalf. It is perfect in its accomplishment.

By his spirit, he raises up spiritually dead men. He brings them to spiritual life, and they are infallibly and perfectly saved. We believe we've established that. I know that to you may not agree, but that is the foundation upon which one must stand if one is going to present a biblical case for the perseverance of the saints, because the perseverance of the saints does not come from within them.

It is not something that they muster up within themselves. The reason that any one of us, after many years, continue to follow after Christ, continue in the faith, persevere in the faith, is not because we're better than someone else.

It's not because we have more goodness within us. It is because of the grace of God. We are saved by grace, and we are kept by grace, and we are enabled by that powerful grace to persevere in the Christian life.

Every one of us who has walked with the Lord for many years knows that there have been many times when if it was simply up to us to maintain our faith, to pump ourselves back up, whatever else it might be, we would have failed.

We would not have continued in the Christian faith. And when we look at those around us, and as I grow older and I have more experience in the Christian faith, the more and more experience I have in seeing people who used to sit next to us in the pew, who used to be with us in the fellowship, that are no longer a part of the fellowship.

They no longer even confess faith in Christ. How do we understand that? Well, I recognize that they went through just as terrible difficulties as I have. I've gone through just as terrible difficulties as they have.

Why am I still in the faith and they are not? It's because of grace. And you say, well, wait a minute, didn't you just prove your point?

No.

No one would ever for a moment suggest that within the fellowship of the Christian church, we do not have individuals who are hypocrites. They are not truly redeemed. The New Testament is filled with exhortations to the gathered body of the church that demonstrate to us that we have to recognize that when we stand in the pulpit and look out over the people, we cannot look into their hearts, we cannot look into their lives, and with some type of supernatural ability, see those who are truly the heirs of grace and those who are not.

We can't know that. We can simply take their profession of faith seriously, treat them as fellow brothers, and simply recognize that we're going to get hurt at times. We're going to see the danger of false profession at times.

It's going to happen. And we dare not put our faith and trust into other people, but only into Christ, because when you put it into other people, when you put it into a leader, when you put it into an elder, someone in the church, whatever it might be, they can disappoint you.

Christ never will. So the real issue is, can Christ perfectly save his sheep? Is that within his capacity? Or is he limited in his ability to save? Never even waste the time to get into a dialogue and debate on this issue if you don't start from the proper foundation.

There's a fellow back east, I believe, he has a website and he's put out a huge, I don't know, 500, 600, 700 page book, all against, once saved, always saved, is how he puts it. I don't particularly like that phrase, but he's challenged me to debate over and over again.

I've said, sure, I'd be happy to debate. However, since this is the concluding point of the entire presentation of the sovereignty of grace in a person's life, then what we need to debate is the sovereignty of God and salvation, the deadness of man in sin, the perfection of the work of Christ as Savior, and then the perseverance of the saints.

And I've invited him to do that. He won't do that. He won't touch it. He won't talk about it. He says, either you debate me on internal security and that alone or nothing else. I say, hey, look, logically, rationally, biblically, you have to address these issues first.

He won't do it. Well, we've tried. Where would you go? You say, well, okay, obviously what you're saying is the logical end result of believing in the sovereignty of God and believing in the fact that God truly saves in Christ is that you must believe that work is perfect.

In Hebrews 12, Jesus is described as the author and finisher of our faith, the author being the origin, the source, the finisher, the one who brings to completion. The Lord Jesus is the one who is responsible for beginning and ending our faith.

He is the one who is at work within us. That famous passage in Philippians 2 where we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, it is amazing to me. I'll be straightforward. This may get someone on the phone, but I was this week on the Calvary Chapel homepage, Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa.

And there, one of the pastors of the church has a book online called The Five Points of Calvinism, Weighed and Found Wanting. And as I was looking through this booklet, book online, again, I could not believe what I was reading.

For here were assertions in regards to the faith, in regards to what Reformed people believe that had nothing to do with the idea that we're presenting, and that is that Jesus Christ is a perfect Savior and that he will save perfectly those who come unto him.

Specifically in regards to this issue of faith, we believe that a true and saving faith is a gift from God, that it is given to his elect people when they are regenerated, along with repentance. Faith and repentance are things that, yes, we have to do, but we have to be enabled to do them by the sovereign enablement of God.

And so when we talk about Jesus being the author and finisher of our faith, he is the one who is responsible for bringing that faith along. In Philippians chapter 2, this particular pastor on the Calvary Chapel page specifically said, why should we have fear and trembling if there is anything such as Calvinistic salvation?

Well, because when you read the passage, it says, for it is God who is at work within us to do and to will according to his good pleasure. The reason we fear and tremble is not in the idea that we're going to lose our salvation, but it's the holy God of creation who is at work within us, conforming us to the image of Christ, making us like Christ, doing his will within our lives.

The fear and the trembling is because of the presence of the holy one, not because the work he's going to do is somehow uncertain. Just a simple contextual reading of the passage brings that out. So where would we go?

I'm starting to preach and Rich Pierce is looking in and is going to be probably coming in here and tying my hands down pretty soon because a Baptist cannot get any louder if their hands are tied. If our hands are right in front of us, we become very staid and very quiet and very.

Scholarly.

But if we can move our hands around like I am and everybody in the studio can see that I'm moving my hands everywhere, you can get really excited about stuff. But hey folks, I'll tell you, I am excited about this.

I mean, we have a perfect gospel to proclaim. I don't know why anybody would be excited about preaching a gospel that says you can be saved and then be lost and then be saved and then be lost. There are some who say if you're saved and then you're lost, you can never be saved again.

I can at least respect the consistency of that position, but most people don't do that. You know, I think of the words of John Newton who wrote that hymn that most everybody I know sings, Amazing Grace.

Well, what did John Newton mean by Amazing Grace? Well, he said these words, while Christ is the foundation, the root, head, and husband of his people, while the word of God is yea and amen, while the counsels of God are unchangeable, while we have a mediator and high priest before the throne, while the Holy Spirit is willing and able to bear witness to the truth of the gospel, while God is wiser than men and stronger than Satan, so long the believer in Jesus is and shall be safe.

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but the promise, the oath, the blood on which my soul relies affords me a security which can never fail. That's what Amazing Grace meant to John Newton. Thomas Brooks also put it this way, Christ is to be answerable for all those that are to Him at the last day, and therefore we need not doubt, but that He will certainly employ all the power of His Godhead to secure and save all those that He must be accountable.

For.

Does Christ save? If He does, His work is perfect. That is the fundamental foundation of this belief. But it is positively stated in Scripture as well. In John chapter 10, it is so plain, the Lord Jesus, speaking to unbelieving Jews, says, But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

I and the Father are one. Now the only response that I ever hear to the citation of that passage is, Well, no one can snatch you out of God's hands, but you can always jump. The passage specifically says, They shall never perish.

If you jump out of the hand of Christ, if you jump out of the hand of the Father, you're going to perish. Jesus says, He is the perfect shepherd, He saves His sheep. Earlier in John chapter 10, He had specifically made the assertion, He knows His sheep.

Verse 14 of chapter 10, I am the good shepherd, and I know My own, and My own know Me. But remember, over in Matthew chapter 7, verses 21 through 23, when Jesus sends the evildoers away from Him, even those who claim to be Christians, what words does He use to send them out into eternal darkness?

He says to them, Depart from Me, for I never knew you. He does not say, For I knew you once, and I've forgotten you. He says, I never knew you. Now, in which passage is Jesus telling the truth? I believe He was telling the truth in both places, that He knows His sheep, and His sheep know Him, and in Matthew 7, when He sends these people away from Him, He says, I never.

Knew you.

You know what that means? None of His sheep will ever hear those words. But if you believe that you can truly be one of Christ's sheep, and yet hear those words someday and be cast away from Him, then which one of the two places is Jesus telling the.

Truth?

You are going to have to, in some way, shape, or form, believe that in one of those two places, Jesus isn't being fully honest. And I don't know anybody who claims to be a Christian who wants to make that kind of a statement.

In the same way, in John 6, in a passage we could spend the entirety of the rest of the hour on, if we wanted to, we have the presentation, I think, of the clearest passage in all the Bible that cannot possibly be overthrown, in regards both to the sovereignty of God and salvation, and the resultant eternal security of the believer, because of nothing in the believer, but because of what's in the Savior as the perfect Redeemer.

In John 6, Jesus says, verse 36,. But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Now again, people say, well, of course, Jesus will never cast out the one who comes to Him, but you can leave on your own. Listen to everything Jesus says. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent.

Me.

This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. Now the simple question that answers this issue is, will Jesus lose any of those that the Father has given to Him?

I say to you that if you believe what the Bible teaches about who Jesus Christ is, if you believe that He is truly the incarnate Son of God, the eternal Creator, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, Jehovah God incarnate, in human flesh, then when you ask the question, can He fail in the mission given to Him by the Father, there is only one answer.

And that is the security of the Christian, is the perfection of the work of Christ who is truly God. That's why when I talk to Jehovah's Witnesses and they talk about Jesus being Michael the Archangel, I go, my, I don't want Michael as my Savior.

I want a divine Savior. I want a perfect Savior who can save perfectly. Don't entrust me to some creature. Don't entrust me to Michael or to the Mormons, the spirit brother of Lucifer.

No.

That's why the deity of Christ is so important on this issue as well. Jesus says it is the will of the Father for Him that He lose none of those that have been given to Him. And so strong is that, so clear is that on the deity of Christ and on His ability to to save sovereignly and to save perfectly, that if you'll take the time to jump over to our webpage at www .aomin .org, you'll find a debate that's just about to wrap up on our online debate section between myself and an LDS gentleman on the subject of predestination.

And in his last presentation that I responded to, he had to go so far as to say that another way that you can render John 6 .39 is not that the Father has given anyone to Christ, but that the Greek word can be translated made, and he came up with a whole new translation that says that of all that He has made, I lose nothing.

Now, the word doesn't mean that. He had to skip an entire another Greek word to come up with it. It's a total mistranslation of the passage. But what else can you do? You have to fiddle with the text, because the text bears no other meaning.

It is that clear, it is that plain. That's what we have to think about, that's what we have to answer. You see, folks, Paul really summed it up very clearly in Ephesians 2, in just a couple of words that most of us skip past because they're put either in parentheses or with dashes.

But in Ephesians 2 .5, Paul says, even when we were dead in our transgressions, He made us alive together with Christ, and the New American Standard says, parentheses, by grace you have been saved, parentheses closed.

And I always wondered, why is this in parentheses? Well, it's because this is what's called a periphrastic construction, and that's where the parentheses come from. And if we were to really bring out the fullness of what this passage is saying in the grammar of the Greek language, it would be, through means of grace, as a completed action in the past, we have been saved, with emphasis on the abiding results to the present of that completed past action.

In other words, you have been saved by grace, it's a completed action, and you continue to be saved by grace to now. Grace, grace, grace. It's the foundation, it is the life, it is what will finish the work of God in our lives.

It is grace from beginning to end, and if we believe that God's grace is powerful, if we believe that God's grace is perfect, if we believe that God's grace can accomplish the purposes that he has for it, well, then you have to be reformed in your view of the.

Gospel.

That's just all there is to it. Or be inconsistent at some point along the line. That's simply the biblical position. Ephesians 2 .5, when you talk about salvation by grace, what you're talking about is the perfection of that work, because God's grace is perfect, and it saves those God intends to save.

If salvation is the work of God, and if Christ is true to his word, true to the will of the Father, true to the task that he has been given, there can be no other position than to believe what Paul said in Philippians 1 .6, that he was confident of this very thing, that he who had begun a good work amongst those Philippian believers would continue it until the day of Christ Jesus.

His confidence was not in the Philippians. Paul was a wise man. Paul knew the heart of man. He didn't put his trust in the Philippians. He put his trust in the God of the Philippians, the God who had begun the good work in the Philippians.

They didn't start the work. He began the work, and his confidence was in the faithfulness of that God who saves, and who saves perfectly, who saves completely. That is why I believe in the perseverance of the saints.

I believe in it because I believe that God has the power to do his will. That's really what the perseverance of the saints is all about, and it is a wonderful promise, and to anyone who to this day has been struggling, trying to be worthy, trying to merit something, I hope that God will reveal to you his grace.

His grace, which is so perfect, and so rich, and so powerful, is truly the message of scripture. Many other scriptures to look at, but we need to take a break. 1 -888-TALK960. You may have some passages you'd like to bring up.

We'd like to hear from you right after this. And welcome back to The Dividing Line. We have been discussing, some people would say preaching about, the eternal security of the believer. I may scare some folks off when I get all excited about this stuff.

I realize that. But honestly, we'd like to hear from you at 1 -888-TALK960 on the subject of the perseverance of the saints. And not so much, yeah, well, what about Hebrew 6? As, why is this important?

How can I share it with other individuals? Why do you raise these issues? Why do you think that this, for example, is an issue that you should consider and think about when looking at the message of a church or a denomination?

I mean, sadly, this is one of those things that people go, well, you know, there's good men who've been on both sides of this issue, and yada, yada, yada. And it just seems that as soon as you make the statement, well, there's been good men on both sides of this issue, that that's some way of saying, so it doesn't matter.

It isn't reflective of a fundamental and foundational assertion on the part of a church, a denomination, a teacher, whatever it might be. This is important. This is an element of the gospel itself. It speaks to whether the gospel is something that actually changes hearts and changes lives and is the work of God, or whether it is something that is merely a plan that anyone can sort of sign up for and may or may not end up working it all out properly.

You know, it's sort of like a multi-level marketing strategy type thing where you sign up for it, but a lot of folks who sign up for it don't ever go through with it. Maybe that's how some folks understand this.

I don't know. But all I do know is if we're going to proclaim a Savior who saves, this is the logical end result of proclaiming a Savior who saves. Now, there's all sorts of other passages in the Bible that I haven't even started looking at yet that present this, and I'd like to look at a couple and then start taking your phone calls at 1 -888-TALK -960.

That 888 is free, by the way.

It's all free.

You might have not known that they threw that new one in there since they couldn't come up with enough 800 numbers anymore. 1 -888-TALK -960. Wherever you may be, give that number a call and join with us today as we look at the subject of the perseverance of the saints.

You know, little words can mean so much. 1 Corinthians 1, just listening to how Paul describes God. Listen to these words. Speaking of Jesus Christ, let me go back to verse 7. So who will do that to the end?

It is the Lord Jesus. He is the one who will make us blameless in His day. And then verse 9 says, Who's faithful? God is. The faithfulness of the Christian is the result of and the reflection of the faithfulness of God.

We don't make God faithful by being faithful ourselves. We are faithful because God is faithful. He is the one through whom we were called into fellowship with His Son. The sovereignty of God walks every verse of Scripture.

Every author of Scripture well knew this truth. That very same chapter, 1 Corinthians 1, ends by these words. Notice that little word. But by Him, by His doing, you are in Christ Jesus. My friend, if you name the name of Christ today, if you love Him and desire to follow Him and be obedient to Him, there's only one reason why you do.

It is by His doing that you are in Christ Jesus, not yours. Not your doing, His doing. And if it's by His doing, will He fail to finish the work that He has begun?

No.

As we already said, Hebrews 12, 2, Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. We looked at the atonement of Christ, Hebrews chapter 10. His work perfects those on behalf of whom it is made. Paul was confident in Philippians 1 of the Lord Jesus, God Himself, finishing this work within the believers.

Romans 5, 1 talks about the fact that we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, not a temporary ceasefire. This is one of the major differences between the biblical doctrine of justification and the Roman Catholic concept of justification, and that is, in Roman Catholic theology, when you're justified, you do not truly have peace with God, because you can commit a sin at any point in time, and automatically you're unjustified, if it's a mortal sin, or even if it's a venial sin, you now have temporal punishments clinging to your soul, and you're no longer truly in a state of shalom, of peace with God.

That is the difference between the Gospel of Rome and the Gospel of the Bible, is that the Gospel of the Bible says that when you're justified by faith, you have peace with God, not because of who you are, but through the Lord Jesus Christ, the perfection of His work made on behalf of His people.

That's why Paul, in the very same epistle in Romans 8, 1, says,. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. And how are you in Christ Jesus? By God's doing, 1 Corinthians 1, as we just looked at.

If you are in Christ Jesus, there is no basis of condemnation.

Why?

Because as Paul teaches, our sins are nailed to the cross of Christ. And that's why that tremendous 31st chapter, after talking about the golden chain of redemption that we already looked at, where we have predestined, called, justified, glorified, that's why Paul can say, What then shall we say to these things?

If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? And who is this us? Who will bring, verse 33, a charge against God's elect?

God is the one who justifies. Who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather, who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. And when that has all been said, then Paul can say, Who will separate us from the love of Christ?

And there is only one answer. The answer is, no one, nothing, because God's work of salvation is perfect in behalf of His people. But every one of these passages repeats the same truth. And that is, there is no way to understand the assertions made in Scripture about the perfection of salvation, the perfection of the work of Christ in our hearts, that does not take as its starting point and its presupposition the perfection of the work of Christ in salvation, the sovereignty of God, the deadness of man in sin, the perfection of the work of Christ.

That is the assumption of all of it. And so it is no wonder, then, that we cannot get into conversations on this subject and expect to accomplish anything if we have not first dealt with this particular issue.

Well, we have a cell phone call. And when I see that, the first thing that crosses my mind when I see a cell phone call is that it's costing this poor person a lot of money to call me. And they may drive under a bridge or may drive into another car because they're listening to the cell phone.

So, Greg, we're going to get you on immediately so that you do not contribute over heavily to Airtouch or Cellulone or whoever it is you're with. So, Greg, you're on the air.

Well, thank you, James. I just wanted to compliment you on the structure of your show. And also, you might not remember me, but I got to meet you years and years ago with a friend and also numerous times stood there down at the Mormon temple when you've been handing out tracts.

And I told Rich that I wanted to compliment you on the way you handled the gentleman there in the debate over the once-saved-always-saved. I went to your website and read that entire article through and through and thought, you know, I really see why somebody like Hank Hanegraaff has total respect for you.

In fact, whenever you hear Hank talk about a book or something he was planning to write and he hears about you writing a book on the same subject, he just throws down the pen. He says he knows it will be very thoroughly covered.

Well, I appreciate that.

I wanted to tell you that. But I went to the site and I really realized who the scholar and the gentleman was. It was you. Because I also went to his site, the gentleman, which you put on there as a hot link just to go over it.

And, you know, that's the tool, the enemy, it seems. It's not that I'm calling him the enemy, but it seems like almost in any debate situation where we have the truth and it's going to be exposed, really willing to sit down and argue the facts is totally open to saying, hey, listen, I want to lay it all out.

And I just wanted to say that to you. I also wanted to tell the audience that, you know, I've stood down there passing out tracts with a lot of individuals. One of them's name was Walt Noble. You know what happened to him.

And now he's agnostic. I also stood there with, in fact, got lots of video footage of us handing out tracts, Mike Mastretta. But I want to tell everybody that James White is staying the course and has been around for a long time.

You haven't been doing it to boost your ego or anything like that. You've been in the arena and really doing a great work of God. And I just wanted to commend you for that.

Well, I really appreciate that, Greg. For the people that aren't familiar with it, we're talking about the Easter pageant of the LDS Church. I only heard this past week that the attendance figures last year, Greg, and I was amazed by this, 121 ,000 attended over the five nights last year.