February 13, 2019 Show with Matthew D. Aernie and Donald E. Hartley on “The Righteous and Merciful Judge: The Day of the Lord in the Life & Theology of Paul”

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February 14, 2019

February 13, 2019: Dr. DONALD E. HARTLEY, (PhD, Dallas Theological Seminary) Adjunct Professor of Biblical & Theological Studies @ Regent University, who will address: “The RIGHTEOUS & MERCIFUL JUDGE: The DAY of the LORD in the LIFE & THEOLOGY of PAUL”

00:01: Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown
00:08: Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,
00:16: Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
00:23: Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
00:32: Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
00:46: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
00:57: Now here's our host, Chris Arnton. Good afternoon,
01:05: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet Earth, listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.
01:13: This is Chris Arnton, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday. On this 13th day of February 2019, and I am so delighted to have two guests on the program that have never appeared on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio before.
01:32: And in fact, Matthew is such a new guest, I don't know how to pronounce his name. He's gonna have to let me know how to pronounce his name.
01:41: But let me ask you right now, Matthew, how do you pronounce your last name? It's Arnie. Arnie.
01:47: Okay, great. I should have guessed that. My first guess was gonna be Ernie or Ernie, but Arnie, okay.
01:54: Matthew D. Arnie, who earned his PhD at the University of Wales and is Associate Professor of Bible Studies for the
02:01: College of Adult and Graduate Studies at Colorado Christian University. And someone with a name much easier to guess the pronunciation of,
02:10: Donald E. Hartley, who received his PhD from Dallas Theological Seminary, and is an adjunct professor of Biblical and Theological Studies at Regent University.
02:20: Today we are going to be addressing a book that they both co -authored, and I'm sure you're all going to learn a lot today from this discussion on The Righteous and Merciful Judge, The Day of the
02:33: Lord in the Life and Theology of Paul. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome both of you men,
02:42: Dr. Matthew Ernie and Dr. Donald Hartley to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.
02:48: Thank you. Great to be here. It's great for you both to be with me as well, and I'm looking forward to this.
02:55: First of all, since you are both first -time guests, I would like each of you to do something that is a tradition here in Iron Trip and Zion Radio.
03:05: When we have first -time guests, we typically have them give a summary of their salvation testimony, starting with the religious atmosphere, if any, that you were raised in, and what providential circumstances our
03:22: Sovereign Lord raised up in your lives to draw you to himself and save you.
03:28: And we'll start with Matthew Ernie. Ernie! Sorry, Ernie. That's good.
03:34: No, you're fine. I get that all the time. No problem. Well, thanks for having Don and I, Chris.
03:40: I really appreciate it. You know, the Lord really worked in my life in just amazing ways.
03:46: I grew up in a household that my mom knew that it was important to have her sons.
03:55: I'm one of two brothers, and she made it a point to make sure we were in church throughout our lives.
04:04: But that was pretty much it when it came to spiritual guidance and instruction. My dad never really spent any time talking about the
04:15: Lord or trying to share the gospel with my brothers or I. So we were exposed to church, but the exposure was basically just that, kind of a surface, nominal exposure.
04:31: When I got into high school, the Lord put into my life a youth pastor who began to speak the words of the gospel into me, and the
04:44: Lord used him mightily to show me, you know, this is what Christianity is. This is what it means to follow the
04:51: Lord Jesus. And when I graduated high school, got into college, that's when
04:57: I consider the Lord had saved me when I was a senior high school freshman in college, that kind of time period.
05:10: And the Lord drew me to himself and saved me and made me a new creature in Christ.
05:16: And from the moment I was in college, this began to surround me with fellow friends at the college who were very strong Christians, very devout, loved the
05:33: Lord, loved his word. And I began just to sit with them and spend time with them and learn from them.
05:40: And they never intentionally did this, but they were actually discipling me and kind of walking me through what it looked like to have this new faith blossom and produce fruit.
05:53: And so for four years in college, I was surrounded by some very godly men who had become
05:59: Christians earlier in their lives, and they kind of helped me along. And interestingly, you know, in the
06:05: Lord's providence, all these men that I was getting to know in the dorm and in class, they were all reformed.
06:14: And so they began to just throw books in my face and say, hey, read this. Literally?
06:20: Yeah, not literally, but you know. Depending upon how angry they were by your
06:25: Arminianism? No, I didn't even know what any of that was. That's the thing.
06:31: I was just a new believer. I didn't even know those terms. And they were just saying, hey, read this.
06:37: Every Christian should read this, the book you ought to read. And so they were giving me books by R .C. Sproul and by J .I.
06:43: Packer, and I was just reading it, and I was like, wow, this stuff, this is helping me understand the
06:49: Bible better. And so, you know, from that moment as a freshman in college,
06:55: I just began to fall in love with the Word, studying the Word, and reading, you know, Sproul and Packer and some of the
07:02: Puritans and just—and the Lord just took that and nurtured that faith and continues to nurture it.
07:10: And so throughout college, I just felt that there was a calling to teach.
07:16: I just loved studying, loved the languages, loved studying theology and New Testament.
07:21: And so in the Lord's providence, He just allowed me to go to seminary and has allowed me to be a professor since, well, basically
07:31: I started teaching my first class in 2005. So I've been a professor since 2005.
07:38: Praise God. And now, Donald E. Hartley, if you could,
07:43: Dr. Hartley, now give your summary. Of your own salvation testimony. Is Don there?
07:54: Hello? I don't know. Wow, that's odd. Well, I guess
08:00: Don probably got somehow disconnected. Then somebody, if—Matt, if you are aware of anybody that can call
08:07: Dr. Hartley, Donald Hartley, Dr. Hartley. Can you hear me now? Oh, yeah, okay. He's there, he's there, he's there.
08:13: All right, sorry. These headphones I have, they go in and out and I can't tell when they go.
08:19: I've heard everything that Matt said, so. Okay, great. Well, it's your turn to give a summary of your own salvation testimony.
08:27: Right. I heard you panicking on the other end. Yes, I very frequently, unfortunately, disobey our
08:36: Lord when He said, be anxious for nothing. When I'm having technical difficulties or something, that immediately goes out the window and I have to constantly repent over it, but I'm sorry.
08:44: Let me see. I grew up in a Roman Catholic family, and so from, you know, a childhood
08:52: I was in church every week, and then I went to a Roman Catholic school from second to seventh grade, which, ironically, the teachers at the time were pretty—they were really feminist.
09:07: This was in the 70s, and I was anti -feminist, so I was almost—I was really a conservative as a child.
09:20: A great Catholic, so my twin brother and I, we had a lot of trouble with the nuns and with the teachers.
09:27: But, you know, we got disenfranchised—we were disenfranchised or not satisfied with the
09:33: Roman Catholic Church, especially if we got into high school. We would—we went from, let's see, eighth grade on, we went to a public high school or a public school, and we were supposed to go to a
09:47: CCD on a certain day of the week, and my brother and I would skip, and we'd go down and play video games and what have you, because we just—it just bored me.
09:58: And when I was in high school, of course, we didn't go to church. I just quit going. I just did the same old thing over and over again.
10:05: I always believed in certain things—the Trinity and the BDX project—I believed all that. But the services were just, you know, woe, and they were just uninteresting.
10:15: Well, in high school, I met—two weeks before high school ended, I met a girl who
10:22: I ended up marrying, Melissa. And I went out with her, and when a friend set me up with her,
10:30: I had asked her out, and the next day she said, did you call her? I said, yes. And she said, you know, she's a PK.
10:36: And I said, what's a PK? I immediately thought of something along the lines of Jerry's kids.
10:43: You know that? You know, like MS or something. Oh, right. And she was a preacher's kid.
10:49: She was a Christian. I didn't know at the time, but—and I said, oh, my Lord. At the time,
10:55: I was a person—you know, a failer. I cursed all the time, and I was, like, really paranoid about, you know, it's going to slip out and, you know, whatever.
11:04: So anyway, we started dating, and immediately, we kind of knew that this was going to end up in marriage.
11:11: And so her dad, by the way, was—of course, I just said a PK. He's a preacher. He's a
11:16: Southern Baptist minister. And they weren't too keen on me dating their daughter at first.
11:22: And that was wise of them, wasn't it? It was. Don't mix them—and they warned her several times that I was dangerous, and I promised out later, because I was harmless as a, you know, a fuzzball,
11:37: I guess, as Rush would say. But I said, look,
11:43: I'm going to have a conversion here. I'm going to be a good Catholic. So if we get married, when we get married, we're going to raise our kids
11:51: Catholic, and we're going to be—you know, I'm going to raise them that way, because that's the right thing to do. And, of course,
11:56: Melissa, at the time, said, well, I'll tell you what—and she was pretty smart when she did it.
12:02: She said, I'll tell you what, if you can show me what you believe is in the Bible, and it's what the
12:08: Roman Catholic Church teaches is biblical, then I'll do what you say. And I was really averse to reading the
12:18: Bible, because it was a big, thick book. I didn't like it. And I thought, well,
12:23: I'll tell you what I'll do. I went home and asked my dad, who was the smartest person I knew, I said, is, you know, purgatory in the
12:28: Bible? Is praying to Mary in the Bible? All these different things. And he said, yes.
12:34: Now, at heart, I was apostate, and I believe that the Bible was unauthorized, but I wasn't—like
12:39: I said, I wasn't a very good Catholic, apparently, a Roman Catholic. And I just took his answer. I took his word for it.
12:46: And so I went back to Melissa the next day, and I talked to her, and I said, well, my dad said this, and she said, that's not good enough.
12:54: And so I was angry, not because she rejected what I said, but because I had to read the
13:00: Bible. And so I started reading the Bible. And my brother, my twin brother, and I both did the same thing.
13:07: We started reading the Bible. We started listening to radio, everybody on the radio, Jay Vernon McGee, John McArthur, Chuck Segal.
13:14: We watched TVN with all the people and a plethora of different perspectives on that show.
13:20: And contrary to Matthew, I wasn't exposed to too much orthodoxy in the beginning.
13:25: I kind of went through the back door through a lot of heresy to get to the truth. But, you know, one of my favorite—you won't believe this—one of my favorite teachers on TVN was
13:37: Hal Lindsey, and he's a prominent dispensationalist. Yes, in fact, many, many, many people that I have met who today would not spend a nickel on a
13:51: Hal Lindsey book were led to Christ through reading the late great planet Earth. I remember him distinctly when
13:59: I was in the 70s, him making those commercials. And so later on when I saw him on television, I said, hey, this is a guy.
14:05: And the thing about him was the way he exegeted scripture was very impressive to me.
14:11: It was logical. It was intellectual. It wasn't emotional. And I gravitated to him more than anybody else on those programs.
14:19: But one day, you know, we had gotten this Christian maturity book by Bill Bright, and it came with Powerful Living, and Powerful Living recommended this book.
14:31: So we started going through it like a workbook. And so we worked through it, and there's verses to memorize, and, you know, passages.
14:36: It was really fun, because I'd never been through the Bible. I'd never memorized scripture, and it was just like everything was new.
14:42: And one day I just said, I'm not going to go to bed until I know that I'm saved. You know, so I prayed the prayer.
14:49: I actually, I wouldn't do this today because I know better, but Revelation 320, I actually thought that that meant heaven to my heart, which it doesn't actually mean that, but God honored it anyway.
15:00: And I prayed the prayer, and I believed, I actually said to myself, this
15:06: Bible cannot be more true if Jesus Christ himself was standing in front of me telling me these words.
15:13: And that did it. I was like, I'm saved. You know, and I went to bed that night, and it was like a baby got the next day.
15:20: And I remember telling my girlfriend at the time, I said, guess what? You know, she's like, what?
15:26: I said, well, I'm saved. You know, and she was like, she looked at me kind of odd. I didn't know whether to believe it or not, but that kind of started it all.
15:34: And it was genuine. And her parents were pretty happy. Praise God.
15:41: I didn't become a Baptist. I didn't become a Baptist. I joined the Baptist church, and I didn't consider myself a
15:47: Baptist. And later on, of course, I got in, you know, R .C. Sproul was a very big influence in turning my theological directions to Reformed theology.
15:57: Praise God. That's always something I like to hear, although that doesn't mean necessarily that you have to abandon being a
16:03: Baptist. I happen to be a Reformed Baptist. Yeah. We'll forgive you.
16:08: I'm sorry? I said, we'll forgive you. My question now is, does
16:15: Dallas Theological Seminary forgive you? You know, when I went to Dallas as a student,
16:23: I was not dispensational. I started out dispensational, I have to admit. I started out there, and then
16:30: I eventually rejected it because of the one people of God, if anyone wants to know what the one issue was, it was the one people of God issue.
16:40: I couldn't see two peoples and two salvations and so on. And then
16:46: I began to question, you know, the rapture, teaching that there's two people of God, and so I kind of rejected that before I ever went there.
16:53: I was asked by a professor one time, before I went to Dallas, if I had to sign a statement at Dallas that said
17:00: I had to subscribe to it, would I do it? And I said, no,
17:05: I couldn't do that. And when I went to Dallas, they did have you sign something, and I read carefully through it, and it was pretty much standard orthodoxy.
17:14: You know, it didn't demand that I hold to the dispensationalism, I should say. And so, yeah,
17:21: I signed it. I said, this is fine. But, you know, I think Dallas, you know, years ago, they used to be really, really strict in terms of dispensationalism.
17:31: I think Dr. Honer, he told us a story one time in the book of Romans. He said, the course on Romans, he said that, he goes, a funny thing happened after people would graduate from Dallas Seminary.
17:44: He goes, suddenly they were amillennial. And he said, you know what?
17:54: That's not happening. They're not having these sudden conversions. They hold that stuff here, and they're hiding it because they're afraid this will kick them out.
18:01: And it was true. They would kick you out. They did before. In fact, I know that they used to have a policy of kicking out faculty if they were five -point
18:10: Calvinists, because I had the privilege years ago in the 1990s of having lunch at a
18:16: Bible conference with S. Lewis Johnson, and he had told me the whole story about how he had to leave
18:22: Dallas Theological Seminary when he became a five -point Calvinist. Wow.
18:27: Okay. That's no longer true, because there's five -point Calvinists at Dallas. Yes, that's what
18:32: I was saying at one time. Yeah, it's interesting that a Dallas, normal Dallas Calvinists are also dispensationalists.
18:43: And I view those, like with Gerstner, as incompatible. You know, there's incompatible kind of doctrines there.
18:49: Right. At least they're halfway there, you know? Yeah, but we do have phenomenal brothers like John MacArthur, who is both a thoroughgoing
19:00: Calvinist and a dispensationalist, and my life has been just enormously blessed beyond words by Dr.
19:07: MacArthur, because dispensationalism, as strong of a dispensationalist as he may be, that does not dominate his teaching and his writings.
19:18: Yeah, John MacArthur is an interesting character. I've listened to him for years. I talked with his teacher,
19:25: Robert Thomas, who recently, in fact, he has passed away. But Robert Thomas was his teacher, and you mentioned
19:32: S. Lewis Johnson. Him and S. Lewis Johnson got together one time at MacArthur's church, and they listened to MacArthur's message.
19:39: And S. Lewis Johnson was just thrilled to go to lunch, and like, and that was a really good Calvin, wasn't it? And Robert Thomas said, well, why don't you come tonight?
19:47: Because John MacArthur has a tendency to be a little inconsistent, and R .C. Stroll pointed this out with him a few times.
19:53: It's funny. It's endearing, actually. MacArthur has a big heart. He's a warrior.
19:59: He's a guy you want in the trenches with you, but he's not as consistent as a real theologian.
20:09: You know, he's a pastor and a very sincere person. He's a guy that's easy to forgive when he's a little bit off or a little bit strong.
20:21: When he's strong, he's strong. Yes. Well, the truth that he boldly preaches far outweighs anything,
20:29: I think, that would be inconsistent with his Calvinism. So let's get right to the book now.
20:40: This is a book that I'm sure will be enlightening to some and hopefully will not just anger others to the point that they don't further investigate their position.
20:53: But the book is, once again, The Righteous and Merciful Judge, The Day of the Lord in the Life and Theology of Paul.
20:59: If you could, and I'll let both of you define this, and we can start with Dr.
21:05: Arne, what is the Day of the Lord? Because there are, as you know, differences of opinion as to what that phrase is referring to.
21:16: And there are differences not only between pre -millennial and pre -millennial pre -tribulationists and amillennialists.
21:28: And even within amillennialists, you have pessimistic and optimistic. And within post -millennialism, you have all kinds of post -millennialists out there.
21:36: And there are disagreements on certain key things that we read in the scriptures.
21:43: But if you could tell us, what is the Day of the Lord? And Dr. Arne, we'll start with you.
21:48: Yeah, great. Yeah, thanks. Great question. You know, when I sat down to, you know, kind of think through the book and think through the chapters,
22:02: I had, you know, my goal was, I want to survey all of Paul's literature and his entire corpus on how the
22:12: Day of the Lord impacted him in his ministry and who he was as a follower of Christ.
22:19: And as surveying the Old Testament, surveying intertestamental literature, and surveying the New Testament, I realized, and I had worked on this too, my dissertation was on this topic as well, but I had come to even realize in a more solidified manner that the
22:37: Day of the Lord is a both present and a future concept. And it's not just, in certain contexts, it's not just the
22:47: Day of the Lord is the future consummation, the final day when Christ comes back to render all the righteous verdicts for the righteous and for the unrighteous, but rather the
22:57: Day of the Lord in certain places in Scripture is just a day where, or a visit of God where he intervenes for his people, whether he brings judgment, whether he brings blessing.
23:12: And I start to see this motif of the Day of the Lord as an already and a not yet concept.
23:20: It's present, it's now, we see God intervening, we see God visiting his people throughout all
23:26: Scripture, and we see that pattern, in a sense, pointing to, okay, all these visitations, all these interactions that God does have with his people, that's pointing to the ultimate consummate
23:39: Day of the Lord where he'll come back a final time and make all things right. And I think in Paul's life, especially, that was one of the driving factors behind his theology, behind his missionary work, his ministry, was that he lived his life with the reality that the future impacts the present.
24:02: And the future Day of the Lord, the consummate day, that final day, is impacting his life and ministry now.
24:09: He's looking forward to that day with great hope, great encouragement, and I think if you kind of see that motif illustrated throughout all of his letters in that, even though he may not say the actual phrase,
24:25: Day of the Lord, in certain contexts, he does talk about Christ coming, Christ revealing, you know, the parousia, all those kind of things.
24:36: And so I think for Paul, the Day of the Lord is a concept he's borrowing from the
24:41: Old Testament where it was a day current, it can be a present day, and those various times where God intervenes and you see
24:49: God at work, pointing to the pattern of the final day's coming, and we look forward to that final day.
24:57: So I think, I guess if I could sum it up briefly and try to be succinct, I would say that the
25:03: Day of the Lord, for me, is an already and a not yet concept. Yes, I happen to be personally a partial preterist, and I use that,
25:13: I emphasize the word partial because I believe that hyper -preterism is a very dangerous heresy, and we have those on both extremes.
25:24: You'll have many dispensationalists who will say what you're referring to is only future, and you'll have hyper -preterists saying it is only the past, and they seem to want to jam everything into AD 70 when the temple was destroyed.
25:42: But do you guys put a label on yourselves in regard to eschatology, and perhaps
25:48: Dr. Hartley, you could pick up now. Can you hear me? Am I sure? Yeah, I can hear you fine.
25:54: Yes, sir. Okay. It's interesting you ask that question, and we have two recommenders of the book.
26:04: One is a traditional dispensationalist, Paul Wentz, and the other one is a progressive dispensationalist,
26:10: Beryl Bach. So they recommend the book. I say that because I don't think the book is intentionally, takes a position on that, although we're not dispensationalists, and partial preterists is probably where I put myself in that span of theology.
26:32: But I think that someone like a Beryl Bach would admit that, and maybe even
26:37: Paul Wentz, I'm not sure if it's asking, but they would admit that aspects of the
26:42: Day of the Lord, just like the aspects of the future reign, are intruding into the present time.
26:49: And so it's already not yet kind of issues, as Matt was saying, this concept.
26:57: And not only that, we would say that the Day of the Lord is, it's got several applications.
27:04: You know, I think Paul, one of the central issues of the book is that it is almost the center of Paul, but it's not quite.
27:12: But it's something that influences the way he lives and moves and has his being. He writes the
27:18: Book of Romans, for example, in the very first part of it. He's talking about the wrath, this very same wrath that's for the end time is intruding into the present day.
27:26: And he tells us how it works, where it's from, and it tells us something about how the wrath is going to be exhibited in the end times.
27:36: Well, he ends that section in chapter 3 with us standing before the throne of God being condemned and silenced.
27:45: Well, that's the Day of the Lord. And the very next passage, 3 verses 21 to 26 and then to 31, it's the
27:56: Day of the Lord's wrath upon the Son in our place. And so Paul is depicting our salvation and our damnation, if you want to look at it that way, in the work of Christ on the cross.
28:10: They meet there. So all we're saying is that the Day of the Lord proper is still future.
28:18: But these days of the Lord, including this pretty significant issue of the soteriological significance of our salvation, is typified by the crucifixion of Christ.
28:34: There's our Day of the Lord. So we don't have to face...the Day of the Lord is always two -pronged.
28:39: It's judgment and it's mercy. Our judgment is on the cross and our mercy comes from the cross, the effects of the cross.
28:47: It's all there. Now, if you don't experience that, if you don't...if the atonement is not for you, then you have a future
28:54: Day of the Lord coming as well as you're going to experience to some degree or another the wrath associated with that future day.
29:03: Romans chapter 1, that's what Romans chapter 1 is about. Yes, if Christ has not paid for your sins, you are going to pay for them.
29:14: Yes, you're right. And we're going to our first break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,
29:26: C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.
29:31: Please give us at least your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the
29:37: USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
29:42: And I can understand that perhaps if you're studying through eschatology and you are coming to a different opinion than your own pastor, or perhaps you are a pastor, you've come to a different opinion than you used to hold to, or you've come to a different opinion than your congregation predominantly holds or your denomination, we can understand that you'd want to remain anonymous.
30:05: So we will allow you to do that. But if it's not a personal and private matter, please at least identify yourself by your first name, city and state, and country of residence.
30:14: And don't go away. We will be right back after these messages with more of our discussion on the
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33:07: James Renahan, and I'm the president of IRVS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas. The Word of God says,
33:14: If a man desires the office of an overseer, he desires a good thing. Do you have the desire to serve
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34:23: S's in the middle. I hope to hear from you soon. God bless you. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,
34:34: Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted.
34:42: He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.
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35:55: That's getworldnow .com. I rely on World because I trust the reporting, I gain insight from the analysis, and World provides clarity to the news stories that really matter.
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37:03: James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know
37:08: I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.
37:15: And besides that, they feel so good. I'm so delighted I discovered post -Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding.
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38:35: Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.
38:41: I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the Doctor of Ministry program at the Masters Seminary in Los Angeles.
38:47: I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.
38:54: It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in midtown
38:59: Manhattan. You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc
39:07: .nyc. They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.
39:14: If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit
39:24: New Covenant Church, NYC. Again, their information can be found at www .ncc
39:31: .nyc. Have a great day. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Trepans Iron Radio, and we have two guests today that are on with us for the entire two hours of the broadcast.
39:48: This is their first appearance on Iron Trepans Iron Radio. We have Dr. Matthew D.
39:53: Arney, who is Associate Professor of Biblical Studies for the
39:58: College of Adult and Graduate Studies at Colorado Christian University, and Dr.
40:04: Donald E. Hartley, an Adjunct Professor of Biblical and Theological Studies at Regent University.
40:10: We are discussing their book that they have both written together,
40:15: The Righteous and Merciful Judge, The Day of the Lord in the Life and Theology of Paul, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com,
40:28: that's c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com, and as always, please at least give us your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the
40:44: USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
40:51: That's chrisarnzen at gmail .com, and unless Dr. Hartley, you have anything further to add to what you were saying, perhaps we can move on with Dr.
41:03: Arney giving us a summary of The Day of the Lord in the Old Testament. Yeah, thanks.
41:12: You know, one of the areas of New Testament study that I really enjoy is the intertextuality of how the
41:21: New Testament uses the Old Testament, you know, how the writers of the
41:27: New Testament are, you know, that was their scripture, and so they were very dependent upon the
41:33: Old Testament for their theology and understanding of, you know, Jesus and his fulfillment of that and all of that, and so when
41:41: I sat down to start writing the book, of course I wanted to survey the Old Testament as much as I could within the parameters of what the publisher was going to allow for page numbers and word count and whatever, and I just began to, you began to see just a multitude of, you know, these illusions or these echoes, if you want to say it that way, of just how the
42:11: Old Testament was expressing the Day of the Lord language, the Day of the Lord motif, theophany language, that kind of, those kind of issues, and it was astounding to me because, you know, most people that I have interacted with over the years kind of have this understanding of the
42:30: Day of the Lord, that the concept was developed in the prophetic language, that the prophets were the ones that primarily used that motif and that concept, and for sure they were the ones that used that verbiage.
42:42: I mean, they're the ones that talk about the day of Yahweh, the Day of the Lord, and all that, but I began to look in the
42:50: Pentateuch and earlier Old Testament writings and began to see, well, no, this concept is there, even as early as Genesis, and so I began to explore, you know, one of the early chapters in the book is where I explore how the
43:08: Day of the Lord, you know, that concept develops, and one of the arguments that we made in the book was that when
43:15: God came to Adam in the garden after Adam and Eve had sinned and God came looking for Adam and asked
43:22: Adam where he was, went back and looked at, you know, the Hebrew and began to study that a little bit more in detail and realized, you know, that can be translated, understood, not so much as maybe our
43:35: English translations make it out to be where God's taking this, you know, idyllic stroll in the garden on a breezy day looking for Adam, but more or less of God coming in a thunderstorm,
43:44: God coming in anger, God coming in judgment to Adam and Eve, not so much saying, where are you, as in, like, hey, what's going on, where's our community, where's our fellowship, but more or less of, what have you done?
43:57: And so I kind of took that concept and explored that a bit, kind of fleshed that out in the book in that chapter on the
44:04: Old Testament where I said, you know, that first sentence of God coming to Adam and Eve after Adam and Eve had sinned is this kind of proto day of the
44:17: Lord picture here, is this kind of an incipient picture that we're going to start to see played out where God comes to his people and brings judgment, brings curse, brings vindication, brings blessing, and one of the authors that I had researched and read that had really began to make that point was
44:44: Meredith Klein, and he wrote a fantastic book. Yes, one of my favorite female authors,
44:51: I'm just kidding. Along with Lorraine Bettner.
44:58: Right, right, right, exactly. Yeah, that's, you've got to be careful when you talk about Dr.
45:03: Klein because you don't want to bring down the wrath of God by referring to him as a female.
45:09: I was making it clear that I was joking, ladies and gentlemen. I know. But Dr.
45:15: Klein began to explore that language of the Hebrew and that kind of mindset, and so I began to kind of look at that a little as well and began to kind of flesh that out and play with it a little bit more and then began to walk through just the
45:29: Pentateuch and the early historical books of the Old Testament and began to see that, hey,
45:34: I don't want to necessarily say that only the prophets and the prophetic literature talk about the day of the
45:40: Lord. I want to say that they, the prophets themselves, were familiar with that language and that concept because earlier
45:47: Scripture was familiar with that, and earlier Scripture, earlier writings were fleshing that out.
45:53: Maybe not in the detailed language that the prophets certainly do, but the concept, the motif, and the theme is certainly,
46:01: I would argue, prevalent in those early writings. So that kind of launched me into the study of the
46:06: Old Testament, and from there on, when you get to the prophetic books, it's all over the place. I mean, the day of the
46:11: Lord is everywhere, and for the Old Testament prophets, you know, they're warning Israel or Judah, hey, the day of the
46:18: Lord's coming, and it's going to come either in the form of Assyria or it's going to come in the form of Babylon, but that day is coming, and that's going to be a picture of what the ultimate day will look like.
46:25: So if you don't repent, that day of the Lord is going to be a day of judgment, whereas if you do repent and follow
46:30: Yahweh, it will be a day of vindication, a day of rejoicing. And I think about Amos, who makes that very clear.
46:38: I mean, the day is going to be a blessing for you, or that day is going to be a cursing for you. And so I think we see that,
46:43: I would contend we see that kind of pattern, that kind of picture of the day of the
46:49: Lord throughout the Old Testament. Now, isn't there a lesson to be learned by our dispensationalist friends, or even those outside of dispensationalism, who tend to look upon most events, perhaps not most events, but many events in Scripture that either have been fulfilled already in the apostolic era, or have a dual definition, as you are taking that position on at least some of these issues, and especially the day of the
47:29: Lord, where it's amazing where some of our futurist friends will be insistent that there are things in regard to eschatology that are only to be viewed as future events, and yet we have examples in the
47:46: Old Testament of a number of them being clearly fulfilled even before the
47:52: Christian era. Exactly, yeah. And Dr.
47:58: Hartley, do you have anything to add about the—I'm sorry, I just interrupted somebody, I don't know who it was, though. Yeah, can you hear me, make sure?
48:09: Yes, sir. Okay. You know, there's a lot of theologians, and it's really a terminative—I think among dispensationalists, especially progressives,
48:20: I mean, they pretty much know what you're saying is true, and they almost treat the text like, you know, what we're treating it as, you know, very fluid.
48:33: There's multiple fulfillments of—just about every single major theme that's begun in the
48:41: Old Testament and gone into the New has multiple fulfillments. I mean, let's take an example of a biblical text, for example, the virgin will conceive, or the young woman will conceive.
48:52: That had multiple fulfillments. Now, some would say, no, that's just direct prophecy to to Jesus.
49:01: Yeah, but the language of the Hebrew doesn't actually say virgin. It says young woman. Even the word parsimos is used in the extra -biblical materials for widows.
49:13: So they're not virgins. So it's elevated to a certain degree. Like, it's a par excellence fulfillment when it comes to Matthew, when it says this woman was a virgin.
49:23: Well, how do we know that the term actually means that? Well, it's surrounded by other things, like she didn't know a man, those kind of ideas, and Joseph was upset.
49:32: So there's other things, and the spirit overshadows her. So there's other collocations that would come into play to tell us that, but that's multiple fulfillment.
49:42: And there are some well -meaning theologians out there who are—I think they're in the minority now, but they would have this one -to -one correspondence with prophecy, and that impedes a study like this from them, you know, accepting it.
49:59: It's really a hermeneutical issue with them, and I think biblical data and biblical fulfillment, just reading it through and see what it says and see how it plays out, would kind of open their mind up to these.
50:12: Well, let me ask you a question, because you're actually speaking about something that is new to me.
50:19: I had not heard, to my memory, that there were multiple fulfillments of that passage.
50:25: In fact, I remember years ago—and you could let me know if I need correction or needed correction on the way that I answered this—I was speaking to an
50:34: Orthodox Jewish friend of mine, and he said that that passage, as you did, in Hebrew, in reality, means a young woman or girl.
50:45: And I said, yeah, but that's—if you don't interpret it or exegete it as a virgin, it's not a sign, because young girls were giving birth by the thousands every day back then.
50:59: I mean, girls were being married in their early teens and so on. So did I answer my
51:05: Orthodox Jewish friend incorrectly? I would nuance it.
51:11: It says a young woman—it could read either will be with child. I don't think there's a verb there, if I recall.
51:18: It's been years since I wrote on this topic. But the immediate—the actual sign was actually the child born, and he was talking about the intrusion of troops into the land by the time this child is so old, this will take place, there'll be devastation.
51:33: And so that was an immediate fulfillment. Some say it was Isaiah's—one of Isaiah's children or one of the king's children.
51:42: I'm not sure now, but I think about it. But it was the growing up of the child.
51:48: So it was an immediate fulfillment. Yet the book of Isaiah kind of hints in later chapters that this prophecy was actually meant to be typological.
51:58: And so then you get to Matthew, you find things like in Matthew again, like, out of Egypt have I called my son.
52:04: I mean, there's no way you would interpret that as a Messianic prophecy at all. And yet Matthew does that as well.
52:11: So there's these strange applications or usages of Scripture. And, you know, we have to be open to what's going on here.
52:20: And there's Jewish interpretive laws and skills and rules that—it doesn't really jive with what we think it ought to be.
52:29: So, yeah, there's multiple fulfillment of Isaiah 714, and the elasticity of the language.
52:35: I mean, Alma is the word for young woman, and technically the term for virgin is matula, if I remember correctly.
52:42: And I used to go to that verse and say, well, yeah, but the Septuagint says Parthenos, which means virgin.
52:49: Then I found out that that's not—it doesn't always mean that. Even that word doesn't.
52:54: So there's this multiple fulfillment, and there's a par excellence kind of hope that's set in the future where an actual sign would be the birth or the conception itself, where this birth narrative would be about a person who was unique in that regard.
53:13: I add this, but it's going to be controversial to say it, but, you know, Jesus could have been—he wasn't—but he could have been conceived by both
53:20: Mary and Joseph and still been without sin. The Holy Spirit said that, you know, he didn't mean to have been born in the way he was.
53:29: He was conceived by Mary, you know, in Mary, and Mary was a sinful person. So how did the simple humanity of Jesus get, you know, taken out of that?
53:38: Well, God did. It was pure humanity. It wasn't simple humanity. So he did that for a reason.
53:46: You know, it was to mark him as different and distinct. I do believe in the virgin birth. And you do believe that God, that Jesus Christ, I should say, only had one earthly biological parent.
54:03: Yes. You know, because the
54:08: Roman Catholics answer that question. They say, well, how can, you know, you know, Protestants usually say, well, yeah,
54:14: Joseph, the sin nature would come through Joseph. He had to live without Mary. And the Roman Catholics answer that by saying, well,
54:20: Mary was born without sin. That's the immaculate conception of Mary. Well, then the problem with that is, well, what about her mother?
54:27: You know, was her immaculate existence on the perpetuity? Well, the answer is...
54:33: But as far as the hypostatic union, though, would not the fact that Christ was fully
54:42: God and fully man require that the Holy Spirit be the one who conceived
54:51: Christ in the womb of Mary? Yeah, I would think so.
54:58: Well, I don't know. I mean, it's an incarnation, you know. Hebrews, a body you prepared me.
55:06: I don't know. I know that, you know, the explanation in my own mind is maybe eluding me, but it's kind of like justification and redemption.
55:18: No, we know the facts of these things, but we don't know why. Why is this the way it is? That's another question.
55:24: And I think you should perhaps reiterate, though, that you're not saying that it is possible that Jesus Christ was conceived by a sexual union of Mary and Joseph.
55:36: You're just saying, hypothetically, if that were the case, that God chose that route, it would not change the fact of who
55:46: Christ was, if he used those means. Right. Like, was it absolutely necessary in order for Christ to be born the way he was, hypothetically, for him to be born of a virgin?
55:59: I would suggest no, but, you know, I'm open to being corrected on that.
56:04: I don't know. Now, would you say that those that say that that is the case, that they are in very serious heresy?
56:14: When they're saying that Jesus Christ was not born of a virgin? Oh, yes.
56:20: Yes, that's heresy. Okay. I just want to make sure, I mean, you don't even see the pool of sweat forming around me right now.
56:31: Well, yes. I mean, usually the reason behind that is not that they're just saying,
56:37: I think he was conceived with Joseph and Mary, but they're really saying they don't believe in miracles at all.
56:42: I mean, those who are saying these kind of things are atheists. Or they're trying to diminish the fact that Jesus Christ was a deity.
56:49: Yeah, they don't have a problem with a virgin birth. They have a problem with God. Right. You know, a few years ago, a real short story here,
56:56: I was talking to a friend at Dallas Seminary, and I said, John Dominic Crossan is an atheist.
57:02: And he said, no, he's not. And I said, yes, he is. He was debating William Lane Craig, and William Lane Craig asked him a perceptive question.
57:10: He said, where was God in the Jurassic Age? I think that's what he asked him. And John Dominic Crossan, that's a meaningless question.
57:19: And the reason why it's meaningless is because God is a projection of man. God isn't there.
57:25: He's just a projection, which he gets from Forbach and then Sigmund Freud, The Future of Illusion talks about that.
57:33: Yes. And by the way, if anybody listening wants to hear a debate between my friend, Dr. James R.
57:38: White of Alpha Omega Ministries, and John Dominic Crossan, who is a former
57:44: Roman Catholic who became very liberal theologically, and he's a part of the
57:50: Jesus Seminar, am I right on that? Yes. Yes, which is a very liberal organization that really seeks to convince
58:02: Christians that many of the things that we cherish and believe to be truth are not actual fact, and it's a very dangerous organization, and they have very dangerous events that they invite people to attend.
58:18: But you could go to AOMIN .org, A -O -M -I -N, which stands for Alpha Omega Ministries, and you can find out where you can view the debate between James White and John Dominic Crossan.
58:31: We're going to pick up right where we left off. We have to go to our midway break right now. This is the longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they air their own commercials and public service announcements in order to localize
58:50: Iron Trump and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida. So please be patient with us as we take this elongated break.
58:56: Use this time wisely, and not only write down questions for our guests on the Day of the Lord at chrisarnsen at gmail .com,
59:04: C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com, but also write down the information provided by our advertisers because the more frequently you patronize our advertisers, the more likely they are going to remain our advertisers, which means the more likely
59:25: Iron Trump and Zion Radio is going to remain on the air because we truly depend upon the finances that come in through our advertisers.
59:34: So please patronize our advertisers as much as you can and as heavily as you can and write down the information to enable you to do that more frequently and heavily.
59:46: Again, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com if you want to join us on the air. chrisarnsen at gmail .com.
59:52: Don't go away. We'll be back after this break, right after these messages with more of our discussion on the
01:00:00: Day of the Lord. Tired of box store
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01:00:16: And how about the preaching? Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.
01:00:22: Well, there's good news. Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience, featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word.
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01:02:57: Did you know that all believers are priests? In 1 Peter chapter 2 verse 9, the Apostle Peter describes
01:03:03: Christ's church as comprising a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
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01:03:49: Visit CitizenPriest .com today. Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.
01:04:01: I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco.
01:04:07: Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.
01:04:13: Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently he wrote a book titled
01:04:18: Consider the Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword.
01:04:24: Dan also has a master's degree in theology. Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states.
01:04:32: He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.
01:04:39: He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy, and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more, and in approximately 10 different states.
01:04:52: In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history. In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the
01:05:02: Law Journal. If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state,
01:05:09: I recommend that you call Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win.
01:05:16: Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878.
01:05:24: Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.
01:05:29: That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Hi, I'm Stephan Lindblad, Assistant Professor of Systematic Theology at IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.
01:05:45: I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of God in the churches of our
01:05:53: Lord Jesus Christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth of Holy Scripture. I'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of Scripture and even the doctrine of the person and work of Jesus Christ.
01:06:09: Our churches and our people need to be well grounded in these truths. Indeed, future ministers of the gospel need to understand these truths in order to proclaim them to all of God's people.
01:06:22: If you want to learn more about our program, visit us online at irbsseminary .org.
01:06:33: I'm Dr. Gary Kimbrough, pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi. God tells us in James 127 that pure and undefiled religion is a visit to fatherless and widows and their affliction.
01:06:43: In the providence of God, three years ago, I discovered a poor small church outside Lusaka, Zambia in a township called
01:06:48: Kabanana, who are taking care of 24 orphans. I found them just at the time when they had lost all their funding.
01:06:54: What was I to do? Could I just say, God bless you and walk away? The situation of the children set heavily upon me.
01:06:59: As I was praying concerning this need, it came to me, I trust from the Lord, to tell the orphans' plight to a broader audience.
01:07:05: The entire need for their clothing, food, education, and some medical services is $73 per month per child.
01:07:11: If just 50 of us would give $35 a month, we could meet the need. Bethlehem Baptist Church will pay the fee to get the funds there, so if you give a dollar, a dollar will get to the orphans.
01:07:21: In this season of hope and giving, will you consider giving hope to 24 orphans? Please send your gift of any amount to Bethlehem Baptist Church, 838
01:07:29: Reed Road, Laurel, Mississippi 39443, or donate through our website bbclaurel .com.
01:07:37: Again, the address is Bethlehem Baptist Church, 838 Reed Road, Laurel, Mississippi 39443, or bbclaurel .com.
01:07:46: Thank you. Chris Harnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a
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01:10:19: Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read.
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01:11:17: Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. My name is
01:11:27: Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.
01:11:33: I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the Doctor of Ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.
01:11:39: I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.
01:11:45: It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in Midtown Manhattan.
01:11:52: You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc .nyc.
01:12:00: They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.
01:12:06: If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit
01:12:16: New Covenant Church, NYC. Again, their information can be found at www .ncc
01:12:23: .nyc. Have a great day. Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is sponsored by Harvey Cedars, a year -round
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01:14:15: I'm Pastor Billy Linhart of Sovereign Grace Particular Baptist Church of San Angelo, Texas, and I'm thrilled to have joined the
01:14:21: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio family of sponsors. We fully subscribe to the Second London Baptist Confession of Faith as a faithful summary of the most vital biblical truths, desire to worship the
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01:15:27: Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Ironson on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
01:15:33: I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.
01:15:41: Todd and Patty specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone.
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01:15:54: Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices. Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available because frankly, much of what is being printed is not worth your time.
01:16:07: That means you can get to the stuff faster. It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith -insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.
01:16:20: Their website is cvbbs .com. Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work in service to you, the church, and to Christ.
01:16:32: That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at cvbbs .com.
01:16:38: That's cvbbs .com. Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
01:16:45: And cvbbs .com is offering the Basics of the Faith booklets at half price.
01:16:51: Each explains a fundamental aspect of belief. Go to cvbbs .com and make sure that when you order these booklets, or anything else from them for that matter, that you click on instructions after you place your order and type in the instructions section that you heard about cvbbs .com
01:17:13: from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. You can also call cvbbs .com
01:17:18: Monday through Friday between 10 a .m. and 4 30 p .m. Eastern Time at 1 -800 -656 -0231.
01:17:27: That's 1 -800 -656 -0231. And please always remember to tell them that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
01:17:36: And please make an extra effort when you're purchasing gifts for upcoming holidays and birthdays and anniversaries, all kinds of events, to do shopping at cvbbs .com
01:17:49: because of the fact that they are in a serious financial rut right now. Help lift them out of that through your patronage and purchase as many books as you can.
01:18:00: In fact, you could kill two birds with one stone and help both of my advertisers that involve books,
01:18:08: Solid Ground Christian Books, one of my other advertisers, they are a publisher and cvbbs .com
01:18:14: is a book distributor and cvbbs .com carries all of Solid Ground Christian Books titles.
01:18:21: So if you go to solid -ground -books .com solid -ground -books .com
01:18:27: and make a long list of the titles that you want to purchase from them, then you could go to cvbbs .com
01:18:34: and order those books published by Solid Ground Christian Books. And both will be blessed and you'll, as I said, kill two birds with one stone and help both of my advertisers at the same time.
01:18:48: Before we return to our guests, I just have a couple of announcements to make.
01:18:54: First of all, I am very excited about the upcoming Banner of Truth East Coast Ministers Conference.
01:19:02: I will be there, God willing, and I hope that you will be there too and I look forward to meeting you if you listen to the show.
01:19:09: Make it a point to try to find out where I am and we would love to get to know you and so on.
01:19:17: This is May 26th through the May 30th, 2019 in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania.
01:19:25: This is going to be, I think, a phenomenal conference featuring
01:19:31: Jeff Kingswood, Terry Johnson, David Vaughn, Steve Nichols, Michael Morales, and Chad Vegas.
01:19:40: That's the East Coast Ministers Conference of the Banner of Truth. To register, go to banneroftruth .org,
01:19:50: banneroftruth .org, and then you can click on events and then click on the
01:19:58: East Coast Ministers Conference. They also have a West Coast conference and you can look up more information on that if you happen to live in the
01:20:04: West Coast. I know that many of the listeners and Iron Shepherds Iron Radio's audience are from the
01:20:09: West Coast. So, click on the event that's closest to you. Now, this is, once again, a part of the program that makes me uncomfortable, but it needs to be done.
01:20:20: Iron Shepherds Iron Radio is in urgent need of your finances. If you love the show, you don't want it to go away, you listen to it every day, you share the
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01:21:23: Never do that and never put your family in financial jeopardy in order to give to Ironsherpensironradio .com.
01:21:31: Those two things are commands of God providing for your church and your home. Providing for Ironsherpensironradio .com
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01:21:55: survive if indeed you love the show. And if you want to advertise with us, send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com,
01:22:02: chrisarnsen at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line. And we would love to help you launch an ad campaign as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what we teach and believe here on Ironsherpensironradio.
01:22:17: You don't have to believe exactly as I do, but you need to be promoting something that's compatible with what
01:22:24: I believe and what I have presented on the show. And of course, I don't even always agree with all of my guests, so there is some leeway there.
01:22:34: But you just can't be promoting something that is actually militating against what I believe. And if you do not have a church home and you're not prayerfully looking for one, you're living in rebellion against God.
01:22:47: So if you need help finding a church home, and I have helped a number of people find a church home.
01:22:54: In fact, I just helped a brother, a brother who is visiting Hawaii, I believe is visiting one of his children who lives in Hawaii.
01:23:03: He contacted me to find a church in Honolulu, and I found a biblically faithful Reformed Baptist church for him to visit.
01:23:12: And he was very happy after he went there for worship services. But wherever you live on the planet
01:23:18: Earth, if you need help finding a church, I can help find you a church. I have many lists of biblically faithful churches all over the globe.
01:23:27: So just send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put I need a church home or something similar in the subject line.
01:23:35: Well, we are now back with our guest today. In fact, if you want to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.
01:23:48: That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. And please, as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.
01:23:58: If you live outside of the good old USA, please only remain anonymous. If your question involves a personal and private matter, if you just tuned us in, our guests today are
01:24:07: Dr. Matthew D. Arney, who is Associate Professor of Biblical Studies for the
01:24:13: College of Adult and Graduate Studies at Colorado Christian University, and Dr. Donald E.
01:24:18: Hartley, who is Adjunct Professor of Biblical and Theological Studies at Regent University.
01:24:26: And today we are addressing the book that they co -authored together. And that book is titled
01:24:32: The Righteous and Merciful Judge, The Day of the Lord in the Life and Theology of the
01:24:37: Apostle Paul, although the word apostle is not in the title. Give us an email if you have a question at chrisarnson at gmail .com.
01:24:48: Before we go into more questions from me,
01:24:55: I just wanted to have a listener question read to you. We have
01:25:01: Susan in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, and she says, how would you react to those who think that it is very dangerous to assume that there are many fulfillments of very important texts in the
01:25:18: Bible when people can use that information to nullify the more important fulfillments of those texts which are future?
01:25:32: I guess that's probably directed to me, isn't it? Well, it could be either of you. And is this Dr. Hartley? Yes. Okay.
01:25:40: Well, the first answer is not every prophecy is fulfilled in these manners, you know, in this way.
01:25:50: There are some things that are, you know, like the Exodus event, for example, is spoken as redemption, and yet it's served as typological of the redemption that's in Christ.
01:26:03: Okay, and there's even future redemptions of our body. I mean, the resurrection of the redemption of our body,
01:26:09: Paul says. So I don't know, how would that kind of thing flatten, you know, the idea of people using it or denying it?
01:26:18: I'm not denying a future aspect of any of those types of things. Any more than I would say that because we believe in Christ, you know,
01:26:26: Cyrus was called the Messiah. And Cyrus was an amazing pagan, as far as I know.
01:26:34: And yet we call to Jesus as the Christ. He's the ultimate fulfillment of who the
01:26:39: Messiah was. And all priests, kings, and prophets were anointed by God. So in some sense, they were all messiahs.
01:26:46: And of course, there's false messiahs, but I'm talking about people that were serving God. They were true messiahs in that sense.
01:26:52: So that doesn't really invalidate or mitigate against the future, necessarily, or a future fulfillment of it.
01:26:59: I think it enhances it. And of course, if you... Yeah, I agree with Don. Go ahead,
01:27:05: I'm sorry. Yeah, I was going to say, I would agree with Don wholeheartedly. I think the more present aspect of those fulfillments really paint a clear picture of what's coming in its consummate state.
01:27:19: I think I agree with Don on that wholeheartedly. And of course, if you believe something is true, you can't keep your mouth shut about things you believe are true just because some people are going to run wild with the information and twist it.
01:27:36: Right. And, you know, so therefore, that's obviously our guests,
01:27:42: Susan, Margaret, are, you know, are teaching and writing about something they believe to be true.
01:27:50: So obviously, it is their duty. And if somebody could please stop washing dishes while we're talking here, there's a lot of rattling going on.
01:28:01: There is... Obviously, it's their duty. They're compelled to speak upon that which they believe is a proper exegesis of the
01:28:10: God -breathed words of the Bible. But if you give us your full mailing address in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, we will send you a free copy of the book that we have been addressing today.
01:28:21: So make sure that you give us the full mailing address in Dauphin County, and you'll get in the mail compliments of not only the publishers,
01:28:30: Lexham Press, but also compliments of our friends at CBBBS. You'll get a free copy of The Righteous and Merciful Judge, The Day of the
01:28:38: Lord in the Life and Theology of Paul. Before we go on to another question from a listener,
01:28:53: The Righteous and Merciful Judge. These are aspects of the whole counsel of God that the church today fails to give a clear picture of both.
01:29:12: Obviously, a church can be guilty of overemphasis of the judgment of God, the wrath of God, without speaking of His grace and His mercy.
01:29:26: And you today really, I think, predominantly have the opposite problem of people emphasizing
01:29:35: His mercy, His love, His grace, but those words even become meaningless because if you don't know about the judgment and wrath of God, you can't really appreciate the mercy and love and grace of God.
01:29:50: And of course, if you don't talk about His righteousness, which many Christian authors and speakers today do not emphasize even that because they try to bring down Jesus Christ to more of an equal level with all of us.
01:30:10: And of course, He was fully man, in addition to being fully God. I don't want to take away from that, but I think that you probably understand what
01:30:17: I'm talking about. Jesus Christ is not our buddy. But if you could respond to what I said, isn't this important to have both aspects of what we're discussing today?
01:30:26: The righteous and merciful judge. You know, one of the things that one of my former professors,
01:30:42: D .A. Carson, obviously has made a tremendous impact on the field of biblical studies, but one of the things he said one time
01:30:50: I heard him speak in a chapel or a lecture series was he said, preach the word of God, preach the wrath of God with tears.
01:30:57: And, you know, his point there was, you know, God's wrath is real and God's wrath is being revealed as Paul writes in Romans and will be revealed constantly at the day of the
01:31:07: Lord. But he's also saying, you know, that God is also merciful and God is gracious and God does, you know, convict and bring sinners to repentance.
01:31:15: So I think you're right, Chris, that from my experience in many cases there's a disconnect with people in the church where they don't realize the tightrope that it is where you have to, you know, be firm on the fact that God is righteous and one sin that is committed offends him infinitely and that needs to be punished.
01:31:40: And God is merciful and he is patient and he does draw sinners to himself and he does forbear with them. So, you know, in the introduction of the book, one of the things that we started out saying is, you know, one of the biggest,
01:31:55: I don't know, one of the things that I've come across a lot of people and students and as well as churchgoers is, you know,
01:32:01: Matthew 7 -1, don't judge me, has become almost a John 3 -16 of our day.
01:32:07: People are very hesitant about judging and being, you know, that kind of thing. And I like to remind people, look,
01:32:14: Jesus is not giving a prohibition of judging there in 7 -1, he's telling you actually how to judge. Exactly.
01:32:20: If you read the context of Matthew 7 -1 -6, he's not saying stop all judging, he's saying this is how you should be judging.
01:32:30: And so obviously we can never judge as perfectly as God does, obviously, but I think, you know, we need to be more balanced in our preaching and in our interaction with our fellow brothers and sisters about, you know, we can't just compartmentalize
01:32:48: God and say, oh, he's all loving and all merciful and he's patient. That's true, but there's so much more to him than just that.
01:32:56: I mean, he has requirements, he is righteous, and he will mete out the punishment that people deserve.
01:33:03: And so I think we need to make sure that we're faithful to preach the full counsel of God.
01:33:09: Yes, in fact, I love a quote by Paul Washer that I just recently saw, and I don't have it in front of me, so I apologize to Brother Washer if I'm not getting the words exactly as you wrote them or said them, but he said, people often say to me, judge not, lest ye be judged.
01:33:32: And I respond to them, twist not the scripture, lest ye be like Satan. Right, exactly.
01:33:42: Well, there is a chapter in your book about the day of the
01:33:48: Lord in extra canonical literature, which is obviously writings outside of that which is
01:33:56: God -breathed. And why is this important, first of all, to have an understanding of this topic in extra canonical literature?
01:34:09: Oh, I'm sorry, Matt, if you could, I keep forgetting I'm talking to two people here. Well, you know, part of the reason for that chapter was just to kind of see the perspective of those living in, during the time of that writing, you know, look at the
01:34:28: Dead Sea Scrolls, the Qumran community, look at, you know, the apocryphal literature and some of the pseudepigraphal literature that's applicable for the dating, just to see that intertestamental perspective of how did they view the day of the
01:34:42: Lord? What was their perspective on that final day? Did they have a perspective?
01:34:48: And so, you know, we surveyed, you know, I think we gave a fair survey of the extra canonical literature.
01:34:55: You know, we tried to look at the apocryphal works that address it. We tried to look at some pseudepigraphal works and, of course, the
01:35:00: Dead Sea Scrolls. And it was pretty fascinating to me to see just the correlation that the intertestamental literature had with the
01:35:09: Old Testament scriptures in understanding this day of the Lord that is both present in many aspects.
01:35:16: It does impact how we live today, or at least it should, as well as the fact that they were looking forward to that final great assize or the final great judgment day when
01:35:28: God would come back and make all things right. And so we see that motif carried through in all the intertestamental literature that dealt with it.
01:35:36: And so it's pretty fascinating to see just the, to me, to see just the consistency from the
01:35:44: Old Testament moving right on into the intertestamental literature. Now, obviously, you know, we didn't look at every single, you know, evidence, every single piece of evidence from intertestinal literature.
01:35:54: That would be impossible. The book would be a thousand pages. But we tried to give a good sampling and a good survey of what that looked like.
01:36:03: So I think it's helpful in the sense that we see consistency with the believers during the intertestamental
01:36:10: Second Temple period time, still having the same views carried through regarding the day of the
01:36:16: Lord as the Old Testament did. And of course, we have to reiterate that these citations, when you're considering extra canonical literature, we are not to view this as God -breathed.
01:36:31: There are serious problems, for instance, with the deuterocanonical or apocryphal books, even teaching things such as prayer for the dead and other things.
01:36:42: So we have to be careful not to be looking at this stuff, even if it may be helpful historical literature.
01:36:49: We cannot view it as that which comes from the breath of God. Right. Yeah, I don't view the extra canonical literature as inspired at all.
01:36:58: But I guess my approach was, what can we learn from those who were using this literature? How did they view it?
01:37:05: I like how you set from a historical perspective. It does help us understand historically, theologically, and even culturally what these people were thinking.
01:37:15: All right, we're going... Go ahead, brother.
01:37:21: I was going to say, a lot of the literature is dealing with apocalyptic kind of ideas, and trying to wrestle with their own suffering in a world that's ruled by God.
01:37:34: And so a lot of that literature comes out of that, trying to deal with theodicy, you know, the presence of evil and how
01:37:41: God's been vindicated. And the war, you know, the two monstrosities of the war, they immunitize the eschaton, but they don't do away with the eschaton, but they kind of immunitize it when they speak of a war of the sons of light with the sons of darkness.
01:37:57: And Paul himself talks this way in Ephesians 6. He talks about where...
01:38:03: Now, the Day of the Lord, I mentioned earlier, the Day of the Lord took place periologically on the cross, and yet there's a
01:38:10: Day of the Lord proper in the future. But there's also, and this is where it gets a little complicated, we're also in the
01:38:17: Day of the Lord now. I mean, we're soldiers, we have the armor of God, and we're supposed to be engaged in this battle of ideas, mainly.
01:38:27: And so here we are. It's like there's a confluence, a conflation of all these different eschatological timeline events.
01:38:37: They're all impugning or impinging upon the present time, including the fact that we're raised with Christ, we're seated in the heavenlies, and we're reigning with Him.
01:38:47: According to that, Ephesians 2, we're in a new age. We're in the new heavens in the new earth.
01:38:54: There's a complicated, you know, overlapping of different events here, and we have to take it as it is.
01:39:00: We're trying to describe it, you know, what's going on here. There's a lot of different things. It's a lot more complicated than just a simple, you know, this event is followed by this event, it's followed by this event, and that's it.
01:39:12: There's no overlapping, there's no foreshadowing or topology or anything of the sort, but there is.
01:39:20: Complicated. We're going to take a question from another listener, and we'll have you answer it when we return.
01:39:29: The questioner is Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who wants to know, forgive me if you've addressed this, but how dangerous do you two men believe the extreme form of preterism that is out there really is?
01:39:47: Should we look at it lightly and consider these men and women our brethren, or should we warn them that they are teaching something damning?
01:39:57: And we'll have you address that when we return from our final break. This is a much more brief break than the other break, the last break,
01:40:06: I should say, so if you want to send us a question and you want to get in line with those already waiting, do so immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.
01:40:14: Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away, we'll be right back.
01:40:46: serving our lord jesus christ in fellowship play and together hi i'm pastor bob waldeman and i invite you to come and join us here at linbrook baptist church and see all that a church can be call in brook baptist at 516 -599 -9402 that's 516 -599 -9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org
01:41:05: that's linbrookbaptist .org every day at thousands of community centers high schools middle schools juvenile institutions coffee shops and local hangouts long island youth for christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need jesus we are rural and urban and we are always about the message of jesus our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on long island new york by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following christ long island youth for christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959 we have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world help honor our history by becoming a part of our future volunteer donate pray or all of the above for details call long island youth for christ at 631 -385 -8333 that's 631 -385 -8333 or visit liyfc .org
01:42:16: that's liyfc .org paul wrote to the church at galatia for am i now seeking the approval of man or of god or am i trying to please man if i were still trying to please man i would not be a servant of christ hi i'm mark lucans pastor of providence baptist church we are reformed baptist church and we hold to the london baptist confession of faith of 1689 we are in nofork massachusetts we strive to reflect paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how god views what we say and what we do than how men view these things that's not the best recipe for popularity but since that wasn't the apostles priority it must not be ours either we believe by god's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of christ in truth and love if you live near nofork massachusetts or plan to visit our area please come and join us for worship and fellowship you can call us at 508 -528 -5750 that's 508 -528 -5750 or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our tv program entitled resting in grace you can find us at providence baptist church ma .org
01:43:39: that's providence baptist church ma .org or even on sermonaudio .com providence baptist church is delighted to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio did you know that all believers are priests in first peter chapter 2 verse 9 the apostle peter describes christ church as comprising a chosen race a royal priesthood a holy nation a people for god's own possession so that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light so if you're a christian you're also a priest now you can find the newest styles in reformed and protestant apparel at citizenpriest .com
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01:44:45: visit citizenpriest .com today my name is steve lawson founder and president of one passion ministries as well as teaching fellow for ligonier ministries i serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the masters seminary in los angeles i would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students andy woodard serves as the pastor it's called new covenant church nyc they are a reformed baptist church that meets in midtown manhattan you can find their service times and location on their website which is www .ncc
01:45:23: .nyc they believe in a god who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel if you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching which is simply biblical preaching in new york city i'd like to recommend that you visit new covenant church nyc again their information can be found at www .ncc
01:45:47: .nyc have a great day chris sorensen host of iron sharpens iron radio here i want to tell you about a man i have personally known for many years his name is dan buttafuco dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer but not the type that typically comes to mind dan cares about people and is a theologian himself recently he wrote a book titled consider the evidence for the bible ravi zacharias wrote the foreword dan also has a master's degree in theology dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states he represents many christians in serious injury matters all over the country dan is an exceptional trial lawyer he wrote the test for the national board of trial advocacy and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for 1 million dollars or more and in approximately 10 different states in illinois his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history in new york his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the law journal if you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state i recommend that you call dan consultations are free there is no fee unless you win dan buttafuco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878 1 -800 -669 -4878 or email me for dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com
01:47:26: that's chrisarnson at gmail .com listening to christian radio can be a big gamble spiritually even many of the major christian networks that include excellent biblically faithful teachers on their lineup sadly often also include the worst of doctrinally dangerous heretics if you are a lover of the doctrines of sovereign grace you need not fear listening 24 hours a day to firstloveradio .org
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01:48:58: welcome back this is chris arnzen and we are going to be off the air in 10 minutes so if you have a question for dr matthew arnie and dr donald hartley about our discussion today on the righteous and merciful judge the day of the lord in the life and theology of paul please send in your email now to chris arnzen at gmail .com
01:49:21: chris arnzen at gmail .com and uh both of you men if you could respond to ronald who wants to know your thoughts on hyperpreterism uh and that is obviously as you both know not a monolithic group but i think all of it is very dangerous and heretical myself and uh you have varying views and varying levels of extremeness that you even have some hyperpreterists who don't believe that the church exists today they don't participate in the ordinances of christ and of course they rob christians of the hope of a future resurrection a bodily resurrection of the saints but if you could in your own words respond to the question on how severe if severe at all you believe this to be yeah i would respond to that um it looks to me like this is what full preterists they they immunize the eschaton so they everything that's future is basically denied the second coming of christ that happened in 70 a .d
01:50:26: so therefore there's no future the resurrection in a certain sense took place in regeneration so i guess there's no resurrection of the saint in the future so essentially they're denying a resurrection that's a very key thing here and in the in the bible we have john saying that some of the types of things are anti -christ act chapter one talks about east as the way you saw christ leave he'll come back so it's necessitates a physical return uh of christ from a dead now is it possible that these people are christians i don't know it's possible but i can't say they are like first corinthians 15 the corinthians themselves were denying the resurrection but paul was didn't say they were christians necessarily but he didn't deny they were either but i think that he went through the argument it's like look you're you're airing here and if you admit your errors then you're you're you're christians that's one of the what's one of the marks of a christian incidentally on any matter of biblical truth it doesn't matter how insignificant it is or how important it is if you're shown what scripture teaches and you know what it teaches and you deny it you're lost i don't care how insignificant it is but if you say this who can say no lord okay you can't do that as a christian whatever the scripture teaches you're a true believer is going to accept now there's a possibility for example you know in second thessalonians they thought the day of the lord was they probably understood days of the lord and the day of lord fulfillment but they understood that the day of lord was done they in a sense demonetized the day of the lord and paul had to correct them on this matter so it's possible to be wrong about certain issues uh fully immunized pathology issues and even so horribly wrong as to be wrong on the resurrection and paul will have to correct you it's possible but it's it's still the teaching itself is heresy it may be embraced by a an ignorant christian or a very uh poorly taught christian but once they're told the truth about this and what scripture teaches there's no question that now it's a matter of you're denying what scripture teaches this is very clear in my mind yes and this would be a unique case unlike other eschatological views i'm sure you're not saying our historical pre -mill brethren are lost our dispensationalist brethren are lost etc etc you're just saying that of course this is something unique because it is denying very crucial truths like as i was saying before the future bodily resurrection of the saints and of course the damned as well are going to be raised for judgment but uh am i right in the way i've just described it yes yes i think yeah even the book that's written here anybody could read i mean the dispensationalist progressive dispensationalists all mill post mill you know whatever mill can read this book agree with it in my mind they can all agree with it because it's about the day of the lord and its impact it's really a hermeneutic impact upon uh all sorts of issues explaining our day how we're supposed to be in this life uh the nature of the wrath of god is infiltrated the nature of the salvation of god that's infiltrated all of this is is shared by christians and so this isn't a particular eschatological book from a particular eschatological perspective it's just not written that way we have mary in cork ireland who asks are there any other prominent christians from the past or present who would agree with the majority of what you've written in this book or is there anything novel well i would i mean don't you don't you don't mind um you know i would say there's a whole host of christians that would would view this day of the lord conference as we do i mean first of all i would argue that the prophets in the old testament wholeheartedly did um i would say all the new testament writers did jesus himself did when he taught on his return and all that and you know all of that discourse but i mean if you think of you know more contemporary writers i mean one person that pops into my mind is gk beetle um i mean gk beetle who is a prolific writer and a tremendous scholar i mean he he uh you know he views things along the as don and i do and in the way that we've written the book um as opposed to what is novel you know i think there's several features of the book that are novel and i think contribute to the study of of the day of the lord and you know obviously don can add to this but i think one of the most uh unique unique contributions of the book is the chapter on paul and his road experience um you know i think that chapter where you know we argued that when paul was on the damascus road he essentially experienced what we say in that chapter a proleptic day of the lord i mean jesus came and visited paul in his resurrected state in his bodily resurrected form jesus appeared to paul and at that day we we we argue that's the day of the lord for paul at that day where paul should have stood condemned he was shown mercy um and so now i could be wrong here but to from my readings and to what i've looked at throughout this topic i don't find too many people making that argument so in that sense it is novel um in that regard in that chapter and um and then you know another another contribution i think it's fairly novel i mean i i have mentioned dr meredith klein has wrote on this several years ago but the whole issue of god coming to the garden asking where adam and eve were in the sense of he's coming to judge that that's typically not the standard uh interpretation of that passage uh and i think i'm not saying i'm trying to make we're trying to make something novel for novel's sake i'm just saying i think there's good evidence to say and maybe the typical understanding of you know god taking this idyllic stroll in the garden on a cool breezy day looking for adam and eve that might there might be another way to look at that according to the grammar and the language and by the way if anybody wants to look up in the archives of iron trip and zion radio our previous interviews with dr gregory biel and it's spelt b as in boy e a l e just go to ironradio .com
01:57:35: and go to past shows podcast and type in his last name b as in boy e a l e well we are out of time now if you could uh summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today and we'll start with dr hartley and then we'll end with our other guest here well my my only word is that god is a god that judges and he is a god that shows mercy and one cannot understand the mercy and grace that god shows us unless we understand how righteous god is we cannot appreciate it and the best way to really focus on the very center of what how god is both just and merciful is in the atonement of christ in the propitiation of christ where he turns away the wrath of god by the satisfaction of justice so that he may freely forgive us freely justify us and be just and righteous in doing so remain so that to me encapsulates the kind of the feeling of this book righteousness and mercy kiss on the cross and dr arnie you have 30 seconds yeah i would echo wholeheartedly everything dr hartley just said i mean he's right on the money there and i agree wholeheartedly i would also want to say that you know i think for the book what paul and his writings would say that the day of the lord is a past present and future reality that has to impact everything we do in life and because one day every knee will bow and tongue confess that jesus is lord you will do that now gladly or you will do it under judgment but that's going to happen amen and for more information about this book and other books by lexham press go to lexham press .com
01:59:28: l -e -x -h -a -m press .com or go to cvbbs .com and place your order there cvbbs .com