March 1, 2023 Show with Jon Heymann on “A Victim of Child Trafficking & Slavery Speaks Out”

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this first day of March 2023, and I am very excited to have a very first -time guest today.

His name is John Heyman. John Heyman is the author of Agonizing Peace, Powering Through Traumatic Experiences, and we are going to be discussing his very fascinating testimony, frightening, horrifying testimony of victim of child trafficking speaks out.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, John Heyman.

Thank you so much, Chris. Appreciate it. And first of all, by the way,

I don't know what you're doing, John, but you're making a lot of noise. It's really affecting the sound of the…

I'm sorry. Is this better? Yes. Okay, good. I will stop rustling the papers.

Yes, as I've told you, the Microsoft Teams magnifies things a million times, so you might think it's a trivial little thing that you're doing, but not everybody listening thinks that.

Okay, thank you. Well, first of all, usually when we have a first -time guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, we begin by having them give a summary of their salvation testimony.

But this whole program really involves your testimony. So I am going to begin by asking you about your childhood, where you lived, the kind of home in which you lived, and then how your abduction took place, which led to your whole story of being a victim of child trafficking.

Well, thank you, Chris, and I certainly don't mind sharing my testimony as well.

After I got adopted, and we'll go back and talk about the adoption, why it happened, how it happened, and how

I got out of the child trafficking arena as a child. At nine years old, in my

Lutheran church, I remember going forward, and I remember that famous picture of Jesus leaning over a cliff to rescue the lost sheep.

And that was always not haunting to me. It was actually encouraging to me, and I felt like I was that lost sheep.

And so at nine years old, I went forward at an evangelistic meeting and accepted Christ as my

Savior. I'd love to tell you that I lived for the Lord for the rest of my life. I didn't.

I became pretty wild and pretty rebellious in my teen years, and came back to the

Lord because of a wonderful youth pastor in my home church up in New Jersey, and because of my parents.

And they convinced me that I was a sheep that had gone off the cliff again, and God needed to rescue me.

I needed to turn my life back over to Jesus, and I did. And that was about 18 years old, and since then,

I've not had that kind of an experience. So that's my salvation testimony.

And as far as the main theme of our program today, your abduction and being sold into sexual slavery, child trafficking, tell us about that whole story.

Sure. The book Agonizing Peace goes into more detail than I can ever give in an interview like this, and some people wonder why in the world did

I write this. I mean, it would have been a lot easier, Chris, just to write a children's book, I'm sure, or some kind of a fantasy book, a fiction book.

But I wanted to write about people that were going through very, very tough times, so I picked a very, very tough subject, and that was, if you're going through a traumatic experience, how do you gain or regain peace with God, peace with yourself, and peace with others, hence the title,

Agonizing Peace. Now, in my case, I was born in Athens, Greece. I do not know who my real parents are.

I was left off at one of several orphanages in the 50s, 1950s, and if anybody knows their history, they know that World War II was done in the mid -1940s, but Mussolini and Hitler had done their job in the country of Greece.

Mussolini did not conquer Greece, but Hitler did, and left a lot of starvation, killed over 100 ,000 civilians, and many parents, many moms, many dads didn't know what to do with their kids, even if they had a child, they couldn't feed them, and so they gave them to orphanages, and the one that I was dropped off in was called the

Athens Municipal Infant Asylum. How would anybody like to be living in an asylum?

Anyhow, that's where I was dumped off. The story goes, and I can only go by the stories that were told to me, because I don't clearly remember all these details as a four - and five -year -old, but there was a bread box in the front of this building, and a bread box looks like a mail slot that is often found in the front of doors of our

American homes, but bigger, bigger to fit, you know, gallons of milk through, loaves of bread, food for the children inside the asylum, and so people would come and sometimes drop their babies off there, and hence the term bread box babies.

Actually, New York Times did a story on us back in the mid -90s, and bread box babies was us, and we were dumped off there.

I do not know, again, as I've already said, I don't know who my real parents are. I don't know who dropped me off there.

I don't know if it was my mother, an aunt, a grandmother. I don't know if it was a prostitute that was trying to get rid of a child or somebody that had been involved with a political figure, and they needed to get rid of the evidence.

I'm not sure. All I know is that that's where I started. So that building is still there,

Chris. My wife and I saw it a number of years ago. We went over to Greece, not for soul -searching. We actually went over there to follow the footsteps of the

Apostle Paul, but on the very last day we were there, we looked up the asylum. It was not that far away from our hotel.

We went there. Chris, I'm telling you, it's an art museum now. They had no art, no display, no sculptures, no paintings on the walls, and they let us in because of my heritage, and when

I walked into that building, all the flood of memories came back, and obviously they were not good memories.

It's stark. It's just like it was when I was a child, the big, huge steps that went upstairs to these large rooms.

They must have been 10 -foot -tall doors. I have pictures of them now, and I remember an elderly woman catching up to us as we were walking up the steps.

They only let us in, nobody else that was wanting to come into the building. They only let us in because of my history, and this elderly woman chased us up the stairs, tapped us on the shoulder, and handed me a book.

I still have two copies of it, and I opened it up, and she said, that's the doctor, and I said, what doctor?

Because this is part of the story I never knew. That's the doctor that signed your death certificate.

I said, my death certificate? She said, yes. She said, when you babies were dropped off here at the orphanage, the doctors would sign your death certificates so that if anybody came back to claim you, you were dead.

They would apologize and say, we're so sorry. Your boy died of whatever disease, and those people would be on their way.

Once we were dead, in the eyes of anybody who cared for us, they could do anything to us they wanted.

So in the, I guess sort of like that movie, Slumdog Millionaire, which took me years to watch for that same reason, but that was set in India.

We were trafficked, sold, rented to people in Greece, and I remember the small house that I was in.

I remember the abuse that occurred inside that house, the physical abuse. I don't remember sexual abuse, although it is not uncommon to forget that.

The mind has a phenomenal way of forgetting some of the most traumatic things that we've gone through. But I do remember the physical abuse, and the abuse occurred because in Athens, there's a famous building called the

Parthenon, Chris, on top of the mountain, the Acropolis. It is one of the most famous buildings in the world.

That's where we children would beg. We would try to steal some rubble. If anybody's over in Greece, you know that you cannot take the rubble from the

Parthenon. It's worth money if you can get away with it, and you can't get away with it.

But anyhow, and we would steal from tourists. We would talk to them in our Greek native tongue.

If they talked to us in a different language, we knew they were not native to Greece, and we had various ways, which

I won't describe because I don't want the audience to know how to steal from tourists. But we children knew how to do it.

Watch Slumdog Millionaire. It'll teach you. But anyhow, and we would get beat up.

I would get beat up if I didn't bring back enough money. I don't know what enough money is, but I knew apparently

I was not bringing back a satisfactory amount of money to the people that were caring for me.

And I remember being thrown out a window. And honestly, Chris, the nightmares I had even after I was adopted lasted until about 10 years old, at least an additional five years after I was adopted.

And for two years, I wouldn't let anybody touch me. The Haymans, my adoptive family.

I do have a Greek name, Pondolemon Koudenos. But my new name became Jonathan Hayman, John Hayman.

And I would not let anybody touch me for two years because when people touched me, they hurt me.

So I wouldn't let them hug me. My gosh, my family are a pack of huggers. And so for a couple of years, they had to tolerate my attachment disorder, as they call it these days.

I didn't want to be attached to anybody. But I remember that very first time in Teaneck, New Jersey, standing in the kitchen.

And my mother finally, finally, as she had tried numerous times, knelt down, gave me a hug.

And I let her do it. My arms were stiff at my side. But I let her hug me. And I didn't resist her.

And from then on in, I learned what real love was and that love does truly cover a multitude of sins.

I don't know if that answered all your question about my early upbringing. But it was traumatic.

And that's why I wrote the book. I finally shared some of those details. Well, since you do not remember sexual abuse, what is the specific goal of those who are involved in the criminal activity of child trafficking and slavery?

Is it to sell children to people who merely want to use them as technically slaves, to make money, to somehow make money, to bring an income to the criminal family that purchases the child?

And obviously, those that are involved in the kidnapping and selling of the children are making money that way.

But tell us about that whole underground, sinister, satanic industry, as much as you know about it.

Yeah, that's a great question. Now, back to the sexual abuse. Reporters came to our house a few years ago to do an investigative report, wondering if I was exaggerating my resume.

And once they saw the paperwork, they realized I was not. But I remember the reporter asking me, because she really wanted to delve into the sexual abuse.

And I remember telling her, I write about it in the paper. We were aware. In fact, it happened at our house.

A 16 -year -old was driving a Sea -Doo and had a horrendous accident where the

Sea -Doo, she froze, grabbed the handlebars, which, of course, is your gas pedal, hit the side of the bank of the lake that we were on and went up into the air high enough to clear a mobile home.

The whole Sea -Doo turned over. She smashed on the ground. And the Sea -Doo did not hit her, but she smashed on a cypress knee and was in a coma for several days.

I tell that story in the book. But one of the most important parts of that story was not just the fact that she lived through it, but this fact.

She does not remember that accident at all. And so I started to study double masters in education psychology and an unfinished doctorate in education.

I started to study what does the brain remember and what does it have the power to forget?

And apparently, at 16 years old, it has the power to forget that traumatic experience in her own life.

And we're all pleased that she can't remember it because it was awful. Anyhow, when

I look back into my own, I believe that perhaps if there was sexual abuse, because that is the motivation.

You asked me about motivation. That is the motivation for a lot of trafficking. Probably the primary motivation.

But most of it is about money. Probably the primary. Well, to earn money. Yeah, well, to earn money through that is what

I mean. Right. To earn money, to have false adoptions, to steal from tourists, slumdog millionaire.

There's a variety of ways to get money out of illegal children, or not the children being illegal, about illegal acts with the children.

And certainly sex is one of them. Certainly sex is one of them. And in this day and age, we often think that's usually with the girls.

But that's not true. The boys are part of the sex rings as well. I was fortunate, though, if you watch the movie

Slumdog Millionaire, they would cut the digits off the fingers. They would cut them off at the knuckles to make the children look poor or they would break the knees.

So they hobbled as they begged. And often tourists will give you more money if you look like you're disabled or deformed was the word that was used back then.

I didn't have any of that happen to me. So apparently I made enough money just only to be beat up and thrown out windows, but not to have any of my members cut off.

Now, you went through a lot of what, at least a summary of what you feature in your book about your life story in rather lightning speed.

So we may be having you repeat some of this, especially since listeners don't always tune in immediately in the beginning of the program.

So forgive me if I'm asking you to repeat things. That's okay. What age were you when you were abducted?

Oh, well, I was dropped off at the children's asylum at birth. I don't know when I was put into another home.

Oh, so you were actually from your earliest moments that you can remember in your life since infancy.

You are already in child trafficking and child slavery. Oh, yeah. Somebody dumped us off at that orphanage, which was an illegal act on the part of the doctor to sign the death certificate as if we had died.

So once they did that, they were already into illegal activity. And clearly it was part of their business plan.

Make these children appear as if they're dead so we can do anything with them that we want so we can rent them out for anything to clean houses for free, to beg up on the

Parthenon, sex slaves perhaps for a variety of reasons.

But they could do anything they wanted with us. We were dead. We were technically dead. These doctors signed our death certificate.

So when I started to dig back into it, and my wife was the one who continued to say,

You need to write about this. I did often ask, Why me? Which are the questions that we ask when we're not at peace with God over what has happened to us in our life?

Why me? Why me? Who was I actually born to? Why was I abandoned? Nobody loved me.

I mean, holy cow, for God so loved the world. Okay, I don't know what love is. Child trafficked and then adopted by people

I wasn't sure was going to love me. I'm glad they did. But not all adopted children are loved.

And then the whole issue of survivor's guilt. Why was I adopted? But not all the hundreds and hundreds of other kids that could have been adopted out of this situation as well.

So, Chris, you experience rejection. You experience abandonment. You experience abuse, which is what most people center in on.

But you have no sense of hope. Where there is no vision, the people perish. You have no sense of hope, not knowing that poverty was not experienced by all children.

You just think all kids are living this way. My whole ministry, my whole marketplace ministry has been with children, with kids in poverty.

And they don't know they're poor, many of them. Some do. But many of them do not know that they're poor. They don't know what poverty is.

They have nothing to compare it to. And so this was done by evil adults who, in my mind, have a special place in hell when you treat children this way.

And Jesus said there's a special place in heaven for children that were treated this way.

You know, don't suffer the children to come unto me. You know the Bible verses that talk about the millstone around their neck, not the children, the adults.

And so even heaven and hell talks about abusing children in various ways.

So I use that. But I do want to say that my book is not a memoir of John Hayman.

I'm not that important to the story. The story is about peace with God through traumatic experiences.

And so I give a lot of other examples, Chris. One I'll share right now, if you don't mind. I was a pastor of an evangelical free church up in New York State.

And I get a call one night that there was a serious car accident. I tell part of the story in the book.

I don't go into the gory details because it really was the most horrendous car accident I have ever seen in my life.

And I was probably in my late 20s at the time. And I'm not anymore, as you all can tell, perhaps, or you've read the book and you know that I'm not in my 20s.

Anyway, I get this call, and it's a parent in our church, and I go to the scene. A car had traveled 110 miles an hour in New York State near the

Catskill Mountains. So there's a lot of hills in the Catskill Mountains. It's not like Florida that's flat land.

And this car went 110 miles an hour over the crest of a hill.

Obviously, the car went off the road, completely up and off the road, hit another car coming the opposite way, severed the car and the person in it right at the windshield level of the car.

So four kids in the one car, one kid in the other car, and the mom,

I'm not sure if I shared this, the mom of the other child was following her daughter home from work and watched this happen.

I don't know how else to say how tragic, how horrid, how horrendous something like that is.

Not just in the accident and the rubberneckers that look at something like this, but the families, me going to pray with the families.

Holy cow, I had a master's in psychology. Nobody prepared me for dealing with a traumatic experience like this in the family of five people.

I had just lost one of their children. And the funeral, packed, the viewing.

When I say packed, I'm talking about people standing outside waiting to get in to the viewing of that. That has to be one of the most horrendous.

How do people power through something like that is really one of the greatest examples

I use in the book. How do people power through the loss of a child? Another example, it was a 10 -month -old baby that we had been praying for for a long time in our church up in Newport, Rhode Island.

I was a pastor up there as well. And the baby died. And it was not totally unexpected, but we really thought that perhaps

God was going to do his miraculous work. And no. And so obviously the questions of why come up, sort of like my questions about my early childhood.

Why me? Why was I abandoned? Why did nobody love me? But in this case, it was two young parents who said, why our 10 -month -old child?

There's not a clear answer to that. I mean, we'll talk a little bit more. I'm sure you're going to ask me more questions.

But in that case, in the case of the teens, most of those families stayed intact.

I mean, they kept coming to church. They were strong Christians. They had amazing faith. They had a whole lot of doubt and a lot of lingering doubts in that.

But in this case of the young child that passed away, the mother and father split up.

The mother went back to living quite a wild life, wild life. And the father stayed true to the

Lord. One of the most heartbreaking things I've ever seen in my life, how the death of a child split a marriage up.

That's clearly not in God's plan book. So watching all this,

I decided I'm going to write about some more things, not just that. I'm going to write about the things that have driven people away from God and away from church.

I'm going to write about things that people have heard in response to the trauma they have lived through from Christians.

They have heard what I call superfluous, supercilious answers to the traumas that people have gone through.

And that has driven them away from a deep sense of God's presence in their life.

Not all of them. Some people live through it sort of like Johnny Erickson Tata. God allows what he hates to bring about what he loves.

And I'm telling you, Chris, I don't fully comprehend that. But Johnny Erickson Tata does.

If anybody who's listening knows the story of that 19 year old girl who dove in the pool, broke her neck and has been a quadriplegic ever since.

Many people probably bought Hallmark cars that she draws with her mouth. And she has just had an amazing ministry all through her life.

She and she got married and her husband, even though she has suffered with this all these years.

She is just a giant of the faith. So, anyhow. Amen. Well, we have to go to our first break.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is Chris Arnzen at Gmail dot com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at Gmail dot com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Perhaps you are also a victim or were a victim of kidnapping, child trafficking, and slavery, sexual abuse, no matter what the issue is.

And I would like to remind my guest, John, if you could mute yourself during the commercial break, that would be great.

And once again, our email address is Chris Arnzen at Gmail dot com. Chris Arnzen at Gmail dot com.

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We are now back with our guest, John Heyman, author of Agonizing Peace, Powering Through Traumatic Experiences, and we are discussing his testimony as a victim of child trafficking and slavery, and we are also discussing how

Christians can get through the traumatic experiences they may have had in their lives, no matter what those experiences may entail.

First of all, John, now that you've given some of your background and the background of your story, how can you alleviate perhaps the distrust or the suspicions of dishonesty that very often accompany fantastic testimonies?

I even told you before we went on the air, in fact, when I first agreed to interview you,

I wanted to know how should I trust this testimony as being genuine, because it is quite a remarkable testimony, and the more remarkable a testimony is, the more hesitant

I sometimes am to believe it. In fact, I may have even told you that in the past,

I interviewed someone claiming to be, at one time, a militant

Hindu who, in India, was attempting with his friends, or should

I say, plotting with his friends to assassinate a Christian evangelist by stoning him to death in the streets of India, and the whole story turned out to be fake.

I believed it because there were pastors I knew who were paying for his travel across the

United States to speak at churches and raise money for his church -planting endeavors in India, and it was very interesting providentially.

Listeners of this radio program, Iron Chip and Iron Radio, will recognize the name Bhanu Gadhi.

He is a pharmacist who is advertised on this program. It just so happens that this fraud was speaking at a church where Bhanu was a member, and Bhanu, who was from India, told the pastor afterwards, this man's a fraud.

I know him. He comes from generations of Baptist pastors in India. He was never a

Hindu. So keeping that in mind, just as you did with me, perhaps alleviate the doubt that some of those listening may have in regard to your story.

Yeah, that's a great question, Chris, because that has been asked. In fact, a local Jacksonville, Florida television station,

First Coast News, did an investigative report on my story because somebody from there had heard me speak in a public setting and thought

I was exaggerating my resume. And when they came, they actually came to the house.

I think I might have mentioned that, but they actually came to the house, and I opened up all the paperwork. They saw the adoption papers.

They saw how much money the Haymans paid for me. They saw all the documents. Plus, American Mission to the

Greeks was the group that was, if you've never heard of them, Spiros Zodiades was a wonderful Christian Greek scholar of the

New Testament. He started AMG. He was a wonderful friend of my family, the

Haymans. And my mama volunteered for him, Chris, and finally asked, I know you're feeding a lot of the children over there in Greece, because he was pure Greek, feeding a lot of the children, but we're just perpetuating the inevitable.

They're still going to eventually starve. And he said, what do you propose? And she said, adopt some of them. And he said, will you be the first?

And my mother, Lois Hayman, was. And so myself and my sister, not my blood sister, she was in the asylum as well but doesn't remember because she was a baby.

In fact, she was literally a baby in a basket on the plane next to me and flew over.

In fact, the adoption paper says that my parents paid for somebody to accompany us. Of course, they were ripped off there too.

Nobody accompanied us on the plane. But we landed here and my parents raised us.

We were great friends with the Zodiades family. And anyhow, so if somebody believed that I was lying, they would just have to check that part of the story.

The second thing I would say is that when somebody here in Jacksonville, who's very tied in internationally to the

Greek Orthodox Church, and let me say right off the bat, I'm not mad at Greece.

I'm not angry at Greeks. In fact, quite frankly, I'm very proud that I am 100 %

Ancestry .com, 100 % Greek. Excuse me,

I don't know why I got cut off there for a second. Can you hear me, Chris? Yes, I hear you now. I don't know why I got cut off. Yeah, I have no idea. I just noticed that I wasn't hearing myself.

Anyhow, so he contacted some of the local Greek people here, then somebody in New York City, then somebody in Washington, D .C.,

then somebody in Cyprus, the island of Cyprus. And they've all done radio interviews, and one was a

Zoom interview. I think I may have sent that to you, Chris, the Zoom interview. So if anybody wanted to prove that my story, these are

Greek Orthodox scholars. And while some of them had never heard the story, when they checked it out, they said, that's right, there were the asylums following World War II, and they were putting children in there.

And I have the book that tells, you know, the one the old lady gave me, and I have all my documents. So beyond my own words,

I have those testimonies. It's sort of like saying, was Jesus really God? You know, and Flavius Josephus, I believe, was the one who said, the

Jewish historian said, around this time lived a man, if it be right to call him a man.

What a cool testimony to the life of Jesus. Anyhow, all that to say, yeah, you can check the story out.

It's like First Coast News. They have it on there. Just go on First Coast News, look up I Don't Want Kids to Hurt, and you'll see the five -minute documentary.

You'll see some of the paperwork that they did. They came to the house with the lights and the cameras, and I loved it.

In fact, we're hoping to do a follow -up story with First Coast News on this. So I hope that answered your question.

I don't have any more proof than that. I've got some pictures, but I don't have any more proof than that.

In fact, after my aunt died, Chris, oddly enough, remember children's memories are built by three things.

Number one, their own knee -high memories, the memories as a knee -high child, looking up at everything as big.

The second is pictures of them as a child, and the third is stories that are being told to them.

Well, I didn't have the pictures and the stories, but I do remember that little house, and I remember being thrown out the window of that house.

There's a picture. In fact, my wife and I were talking about it last night. When my aunt died, we cleaned out her apartment,

Hayman aunt. Remember, I have no contact with my Greek family, and Aunt Millie, and we cleaned it out, and we found a picture of me.

We found a picture of me standing in front of that house with a sweater. It looks like I have a black eye, and it's me standing in front of that dumpy little tiny house.

So anyhow, that's the only picture we have of me in Greece, though. Well, as I told you, the reason

I'm actually interviewing you now is that you finally convinced me after explaining all that you did, and you also are a friend of one of my friends,

Ernie Zara, who I've interviewed in this program. Yep. First of all, let me take a listener question.

Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania. Susan asks,

I heard that you were in the child slavery industry as a baby, but I can't remember if I heard the age you were when you were finally rescued out of it.

Good question. It was probably four or five years old. You know, the adoption papers, the best we can gather is that the names, perhaps the name on there is my real name.

One of them says Pondelayman Hayman, excuse me, Pondelayman Koudenos, Pondelayman Hayman, and the other says

Pondelise. Both of those are the names I've learned since. The Greek Orthodox Church has a saint for each day of the year, and that is

Pondelise or Pondelayman, which is July 27th. So even though they put

September 2nd on these adoption papers, because of my name, if it's accurate, my birthday probably is

July 27th. All that to say we're not clear whether all those adoption papers told the truth.

Does that make sense? But around four or five years old. And you might as well repeat how you got rescued out of it at that age.

Oh, good question. Spiros Zodiades had formed an organization called the American Mission of the

Greeks, AMG International. It moved from New Jersey to Tennessee. It's still alive today. It's a great mission group.

It's much like Samaritan's Purse. It does relief work around the world now, not just to Greeks. Anyhow, he was doing feeding in post -World

War 1950s, and my mother volunteered for him. And finally, she was the one who adopted the first two of I believe it was about 300 kids before the

Greek government shut it down, shut the mill down. Now, Spiros Zodiades was not part of the illegal part.

He was trying to get kids out of Greece. He was a wonderful man. Yes, and when you say your mother, you mean your adoptive mother.

Yes, Lois Hayman. Good question, yeah. Yes. Well, thank you. I don't know who my real mother is, yeah.

Well, thank you, Susan Margaret. And please give us your mailing address in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, because you have won a free copy of Agonizing Peace, Agonizing Peace with the subtitle

Powering Through Traumatic Experiences. Compliments of Karis Publishing.

And so please give us that address so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVVBS .com,

can ship that out to you at no cost to you or to us. We have one of our –

Can I interrupt you, Chris? Oh, yeah, sure. That is wonderful news. So Margaret was her name.

I'm glad she's going to get a book. That's fantastic. Yes, Susan Margaret. She goes by Susan. Susan Margaret. Thank you,

Susan. Thank you. We have a listener who is one of our most faithful listeners and most generous financial supporters every month,

Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina. Greetings, brothers. In the last few years,

I've had a few cases of trauma. Nothing like what you've experienced, but at almost 70 years of age, it's drawn me closer to our

Lord Jesus Christ. In fact, Friday night, I was headed home and looked back at my truck, and it was on fire.

My tractor and part of the trailer burnt up. However, I know our Heavenly Father is sovereign, and I must trust him.

Let's see here. Where are we? I've lost my train of reading this.

Oh, some Christians get angry at God when going through trauma. How do you counsel them?

And that's Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina. Grady, that's a great question.

I'm telling you, you brought up what a lot of people are asking. I am 70 years old, so I've been through more than just the adoption in my life.

In fact, every story I tell are ones that I have been part of in the book. They're not just stories, you know, fluffy stories

I read somewhere. They're real. They're real accounts, the ones I gave earlier about the five teens dying in the car accident and the numerous ones that I gave in the book.

But here's the key. When people go through a traumatic experience, Grady, here's what happens.

You either believe in God during that time that you go through it, or you don't. In fact, could you pick up right where you left off, because we have to go to our midway break.

Sure. So don't forget those exact words that you used. I will not. If anybody would like to join

Grady and Susan Margaret with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence. If you live outside the

USA, only remain anonymous if your question is a personal and private one. Please be patient with us, as this is the longer break in the middle of the show than the other breaks, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires a longer break to obey FCC regulations by localizing this program geographically to Lake City, Florida, with their own public service announcements.

We, on the other hand, simultaneously air our globally heard commercials. So we'll be right back after these messages don't go away.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia, again, for the

G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd, on a theme that I have been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

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When Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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Before I return to my guest, John Heyman, and his fascinating story as he is a victim or was a victim of child trafficking and slavery, before I return to that discussion,

I just have a couple of very important announcements to make. If you love this show, folks, and you don't want it to go away,

I'm urging you, please, as I do every day, please go to IronSharpensIronRadio .com, click

Support, then click Click to Donate Now. You could donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion.

Folks, we have between 30 ,000 and 40 ,000 people downloading this show every single month, and we have a relatively small handful of listeners actually helping to support this program.

We, at one time, years ago, enjoyed a much larger number of monthly supporters to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, but ever since the coronavirus, the hysteria surrounding the coronavirus, and some of the unjust mandates and so forth that our governments were guilty of imposing upon our citizens, the giving to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio has plummeted and never bounced back.

So please, if you really love this show, we are in urgent need of your help. Go to IronSharpensIronRadio .com, click

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Never do that. And also, if you're really struggling to survive and make ends meet, please wait until you are more financially stable and back on your feet before you send us a financial gift.

The two things that are clear in the Bible about finances is that we are to support our church, where we are a member, and support our family.

Supporting my radio show is obviously not a command of God, but if you love this show and don't want it to disappear, if you have extra money above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands of supporting church and family, you have extra money collecting interest in the bank, you have extra money for benevolent, recreational, and trivial purposes, and you don't want this show to disappear, please share some of that money with us so that we can continue to exist.

Go to www .ironsharpensironradio .com, click Support, then click Click to Donate Now. I also want to remind you that this week, in fact it starts

Friday, the First Love Ministries' first annual

Bible conference takes place March 3rd through the 5th in Milton, Florida, at the

First Baptist Church of Baghdad in Milton, featuring my friend Pastor Joe Jakowicz and a long lineup of speakers.

It's absolutely free of charge. If you are able to get to the Milton, Florida area this week, please go to www .firstloveministries

.org, www .firstloveministries .org, and find out how to register for this free conference.

Last but not least, if you are not a member of a Christ -honoring, biblically faithful, theologically sound, doctrinally solid church, no matter where on the planet

Earth you live, I may be able to help you because I have lists, extensive lists, of Christ -honoring churches spanning the globe, and I've helped many people in my audience find churches all over the world, sometimes even within just a few minutes from where they live.

That may be you, so if you are in that predicament, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to our guest,

John Heyman, who was a victim of child trafficking and slavery, and he is the author of Agonizing Peace, Powering Through Traumatic Experiences.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and country of residence.

John, right before the break, you began answering a question by Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina, and just to repeat the last part of his email, which is actually the question, some

Christians get angry at God when going through trauma. How do you counsel them? Yeah, that was a great question,

Grady. It's not that it's difficult when people are in the middle of an emotional and traumatic experience to discuss logic to them, but the logical answer to this, and then

I will deal with an emotional answer, but the logical answer is this. When people go through traumatic experiences, there are four reactions.

Two for people that believe in God, and two for people that do not believe in God.

So if somebody is listening that does not believe in God, what I mean by not believing in God, I'm talking about the

God of the universe that loves us, that wants us to live with him forever, and has provided a path to do that through his son,

Jesus Christ. If you don't believe in the God that loves us, and you fall into a traumatic experience, you will have either one of these reactions.

One, it will drive you further away from God. You will become angry with the very

God you say does not exist, which is kind of interesting. Or the traumatic experience will drive you to the foot of the cross.

It will drive you closer to God because you do want to have something to trust in. And that's for people who don't believe in God.

For people who do believe in the God of the gospel, actually the reactions are the same.

Number one, it either drives them further away from God, and they get angry with God, the one that they said they believed in, or it drives them to the foot of the cross.

But the reality is this. If there is no God, the answer to Grady's questions is there are no answers.

There are no answers to the traumatic experiences that we go through. Yes, people can wish us the best, and they mean it.

They will say sorry for your loss, and they mean it, but that's as far as they can go is they feel bad for our loss, whether it's a loss of a job, loss of a home, loss of a husband and wife, somebody comes home and says they found somebody else to live with, the loss of somebody in the wartime, loss of a child, whatever the loss is.

So sorry for your loss is what you will see on social media quite a bit because there is no other answer.

This is a colossal, epic statement I'm about to say. I have decided to live with some of the answers rather than none of the answers.

In other words, believing in God does not answer all of the questions, which I believe Grady is alluding to when he says he trusts in the sovereignty of God.

He knows there are no complete answers to all of the traumatic experiences that we can go through.

There are not, but there are some answers to it. Without God, there are no answers to it.

So when somebody says, I don't believe in God, is this book or is this whole subject of traumatic experiences good for me?

Yes, it is. It is really good for you. My book, Agonizing Peace, does not deal with church or denominations.

It talks about faith and peace, faith in God and peace with God.

And I believe that many people look Elton John. What was that song he sang in the movie

The Lion King? Or he wrote it a circle of life. Some of us fall by the wayside and some of us soar to the stars.

Some of us sail through our troubles while some have to live with the scars in the circle of life.

That's not a Bible verse, but that's a powerful statement in that song. A circle of life from the movie

The Lion King. He doesn't offer any answers because he doesn't have any. The Bible does.

It offers us some of the answers. It offers us an ultimate answer, and that is God's ways are not our ways.

God is sovereign. He knows what is going on. And life to me is like a parade that is on the other side of a fence that we cannot see.

And we walk up to the fence, and we peep through a peephole. And as we peep through the peephole, we see only a small portion of that huge parade that is happening on the other side.

So you can ask one person, what's happening on the other side? And they will say, I don't know, but a big gray thing just went by, probably an elephant.

But they don't know because they only see it through a peephole. Somebody else says, I just saw a clown jumping up and down.

Somebody else says, I saw a wheel on something. Well, the reality is

God is on top of that fence, and he sees everything. He sees the clown.

He sees the elephant. He sees the float that has the wheels. He sees everything from beginning to end.

And when the Bible says that his ways are not our ways, that Paul, the apostle

Paul, could say because of his sovereignty, that no matter what state

I have found myself in, whether in an abundance or in want,

I have learned to be content. I have learned to be content.

Chris, I don't know if your audience knows the story of Horatio Spafford, sometimes pronounced Spafford.

Yes, the hymn writer. Oh, my gosh. Some people do know the whole story.

For somebody that perhaps doesn't, this is powerful because that song,

It Is Well With My Soul, was written by a guy in the late 1800s whose whole business collapsed in the

Great Fire of Chicago, the Great Chicago Fire. Not only did that happen, he lost his whole income, but his son died of scarlet fever.

When the family needed some respite, he sent his wife in a ship with his four daughters to England.

And he said he would join them later. On the way to England, that ship collided with another ship.

All four daughters were killed in the rush of water. In fact, almost everybody, not everybody, but almost everybody died in that in that horrendous act.

When she got to England, she contacted him and said, our girls are gone.

They've died. I'm the only one to survive. So here's a man whose son already died of scarlet fever.

He lost his empire, his business. He lost his four daughters.

And this is what he wrote when he sailed to England. The captain of that boat, when he was going to join his wife over, the captain of that boat, as they passed over the spot where his wife and four daughters and the spot where he lost his daughters to drowning.

He called Spofford up to the captain's quarters and said, this is the spot.

And Spofford penned these words. When peace, agonizing peace, when peace like a river attendeth my way, when sorrows like sea billows roll, whatever my lot that has taught me to say, it is well, it is well with my soul.

And if I can just read the last verse of the five verses. And Lord, haste the day when the faith shall be sight.

The clouds be rolled back as a scroll. I get emotional every time I read this.

The trump shall resound and the Lord shall descend. Even so, it is well with my soul.

Chris, I don't know what you would have written if you lost. He lost another son after that. They had two more children and one of those children passed away, too, of scarlet fever.

I don't know what I would have written if I had lost five or six of my children. You know, Paul says, rejoice in the

Lord always. And again, I say rejoice. He said that in prison. Rejoice in the Lord.

And I have to remind you again, rejoice in prison. So thank you,

Grady. Your outlook is exactly what we need in this day and age. And, Grady, guess what?

You've also won a free copy of the book we are discussing today by John Heyman, Agonizing Peace, Powering Through Traumatic Experiences.

And this is by the generosity of Karis Publishing, karispublishing .com,

and also through the generosity of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cbbbs .com, who sponsor this program, who will ship that book out to you free of charge.

We have Christopher in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who asks were the criminals who sold you into slavery ever brought to justice?

That's a great question, and I don't have the answer to that. We asked Spiros Zotiades, the man who heads up American Mission of the

Greeks, a wonderful Christian, actually a New Testament scholar. He passed away a number of years ago. But he's the one that orchestrated the adoption into the states.

And, by the way, he made no money from it. We don't know. We never got an answer of whether they were brought to justice.

We were told that the Greek government shut down the illegal adoption, which, oddly enough, I would have never been adopted, which is another crazy question

I have. They call it survivor's guilt. But why me and not others? Why was I adopted and not others?

But anyhow, the answer is no, they were never brought to justice as far as I know. Thank you,

Christopher. You have also won a free copy of Agonizing Peace, Powering Through Traumatic Experiences.

Make sure we have your full mailing address so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CBBBS .com, can ship that out to you.

Let's see here. We have Bobby in Hartsdale, New York. And Bobby says, forgive me if I miss this, but what was the organization where you were left for adoption?

Was it a church or some other group? Yeah, also a good detail question, and I do talk about that in the book.

It was called the Athens, it's in the heart of Athens, Greece, the Athens Municipal Infants Asylum.

That's what it was called. It is today, I think it's called the Municipal Art Gallery. And that's what it was.

Anyhow, a number of years ago when my wife and I visited over in Greece and saw it again, just as it existed with the wrought iron fences and the points on the top of the wrought iron fence, so children couldn't escape.

There were metal steel bars, they're still there, metal steel bars over every single window, so children couldn't escape.

I mean, that's where they put us. It was a prison for little children. It's disgusting. So were they consciously a part of this criminal activity?

Oh, absolutely. They had to have been. And they still exist? No, no, no.

Thank you for asking that question. That illegal adoption and the asylums were shut down.

Today, the building, I should have said that clearer, the building itself, not changed though, the building itself with the wrought iron fence with a huge, tall spiked wrought iron fence to keep children from coming out.

All that is still there, but it is now called, and I have a picture of that. I don't think I put a picture of that in the book. I'm going to go into more detail in my second book called

A Rugged Walk, and I'm going to show more pictures. But anyhow, the pictures are of,

I apologize, Chris. I went off on that rabbit trail and forgot the question. I was asking if the organization that actually sold you into slavery.

No, it doesn't exist. No, it doesn't exist. Sorry, Chris. And let's see here.

We have Ronald in Eastern Slavery County, Long Island.

And Ronald asks, you said that initially you did not want to be touched by anyone after you were rescued out of slavery.

You believe I said it. I'm sorry. You said I believe it was an aunt who hugged you, but you could not hug her back.

Have any lasting effects troubled you ever since that happened as a precious young child?

I would say yes. In fact, my wife and I often talk about what today's psychology community talks about, attention deficit disorder.

I clearly suffered from that before it was a recognized disorder. No, I don't take any medicine, and I'm not in any therapy, because I believe that love covers a multitude of sins.

But if you were to say, what is my quick initial reaction when people want to get close to me, both physically and sometimes in other ways, meaning emotionally, or they want to do business with me, it's doubt.

That is my first reaction is doubt. My wife will tell you that. She says, you doubt so quickly, and I do.

Sometimes even in our marriage, it has been something that I've been having to care. Sometimes you go, come on,

John, this woman loves you. She has never done anything to make you think that she cannot be trusted or loved.

So, yes, it has lasting effects. And often in the field of psychology, you have to prepare your mind.

Sort of like Jesus even said, one of his shortest sermons, in this world, expect trouble. And it's an expectation that we don't necessarily like.

But as a result of that, yes, I was not able to have adults touch me.

Maybe I said aunt, but the memory I recall was my mother in a teaneck New Jersey kitchen.

But there was an aunt. If somebody has heard one of my other interviews, there was an aunt that gave me a basketball for a gift and was approaching me, and I threw the basketball back at her.

Also a truck. I threw a truck at somebody. You know, they were lavishing me with gifts. Oh, here's this cool kid that we just adopted.

And there was a big family. It was a Norwegian family and German family come together from Brooklyn, New York.

I lived in teaneck New Jersey. So, yes, and I might have mentioned earlier in the broadcast,

I had nightmares, various nightmares that I describe in the book, up until I was about 10 or 11 years old.

And they were really awful nightmares. Never anything sexual, but very, very brutal, physically brutal.

And, Ronald, you've also won a free copy of the book we are addressing,

Agonizing Peace, Powering Through Traumatic Experiences. Make sure we have your full mailing list. We have an anonymous listener who wants to know, as you counsel individuals through all kinds of traumatic experiences, are there any who suffered through similar experiences to you who were abducted and sold into slavery?

Every once in a while I find that. I serve on a national organization called the

Evangelical Council for Abuse Prevention. That's ECAP. It will shortly, we hope, it will shortly be aligned with the

ECFA, the financial accountability. Anyhow, it goes to churches, specifically, and trains them to be certified in child safety issues because if anybody knows anything about predators of children, they will go to mentoring programs.

They will work inside churches. They will sometimes become Sunday school teachers because most children that are abducted,

I'm not sure if the listening audience understands this, you can look some of these data points up on the

Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Anyhow, most, and I believe it's like 80%, of children are abducted by somebody they know and somebody that has built up a trusting relationship.

And often we think that's an uncle or an aunt, and it can be, but it can be a Sunday school teacher, it can be a mentor in a mentoring program.

So these programs should become certified by this organization, the

Evangelical Council for Abuse Prevention. And of course, through that, as well as my pastoral counseling, as well as my work through prisons, which

I describe in my book, and my work with children for 30 years. I've been a child advocate.

When I say advocate, I mean providing real programs, like wonderful programs,

Boys and Girls Club, communities and schools, programs that serve kids and have safety measures.

I ran an organization that was $38 million big. That's big for a nonprofit. And we had child safety regulations for those that we funded.

They had to pass, background screening and on and on and on. So yes, I've come in contact with folks.

So thank you for that question. That was great. And Anonymous, please provide for us your full name and mailing address, because you have also won

Agonizing Peace, Powering Through Traumatic Experiences. If you are a first -time questioner, you have also won a free

New American Standard Bible. And we thank Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service for shipping these out to our listeners for free.

We thank our friends over at Karras Publishing for being so generous for providing these books, and also the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible for always providing our first -time questioners with Bibles. And let me repeat, by the way, before I forget later,

Karras Publishing is spelled K -H -A -R -R -I -S, publishing .com,

karraspublishing .com. If you could, it would probably be extremely valuable to go through some of the preventative measures that you counsel churches to adopt to make sure that the children are safe in the congregations.

Yeah, that's a very good point. Everything from background screening, but remember, somebody does not have an issue of a background screening if they have yet to abuse a child.

And you don't want that to happen inside your church. So actually, team teaching is a preventative measure, making sure there is a glass window in every single door of the church, including the pastor's office, including the administrative assistant office.

Every Sunday school class should have a window in the church, and nobody should be allowed to cover that window.

Oh, let's put a poster over it. Nobody covers the windows. That's also a preventative measure as well.

Obviously, when I say background screening, it's not just the FBI level two background screening, but you should just really ask people about the person that you just took in.

And a way you can do that, this may sound really unusual because most people don't in churches, we trust so quickly, but remember,

I'm a doubter, is go ahead and take some references from the person applying to be a

Sunday school teacher, then get their address, and go ask their neighbors. How is this person?

What is this person like? Knock on the door and say, do you mind me asking a question? Your neighbor wants to be a

Sunday school teacher in our church. We just wonder what you think. And then just watch everything, because most people don't want to tell.

But you can see it in their face if there's trouble. Then, okay, so that's another thing.

Another thing is create a policy that allows you, and they have to sign it, that allows you to release them from their duty.

Listen carefully, everybody, for no reason at all. So if they come back and say, why don't you want me to be a

Sunday school teacher, sir or ma 'am or Fred or Paul or Alice, I'm sorry, we just don't.

You have to give me a reason. No, I actually don't. Now, the risk in doing that is, number one, your judgment is wrong, but it's a risk you should take.

And second is because you can't say, because we worry about whether you will ever do this, because once you give a reason, you may have to defend it in a court of law because it becomes a defamation issue.

So, yes, I sound litigious right now because that's the way the world is functioning, which is a sad testimony to where we have gotten even in our churches.

But I will tell you, the converse is if something does happen in a church, it will cause, first of all, a lot of people to leave, but it would also cost you millions in lawyer fees.

Now, what is the specific reason that you would reject an application and tell the applicant,

I don't have to give you a reason? What is the reason for that? Okay, so those who live in Florida are used to the no fault, not just insurance, but I'm not using the right term, but you can fire people from an actual job for no reason.

You don't have to put them, you don't actually have to put them on a remedial plan.

Once you do, you have to fulfill the remedial plan, you have to evaluate them, but if for some reason the fit is not right, the

FIT, the fit is not right in your job, you do not have to give them a reason.

Sounds cold and calculated, but it reduces legal costs, it reduces a lot.

Yes, you've probably made an enemy. So you asked me specifically, what are the reasons?

Should be in the judgment of the leadership of the church that just says, I don't know what it is,

I heard this story, I can't prove it in a court of law, but I don't think they should be around children.

I don't think they should be around children. There is a converse to a definition that John Wattenberger gave on quality.

I'm sorry, I'm using the wrong psychologist. Anyhow, gave for the definition of quality.

He said quality is hard to define, but you know it when you see it.

And I remember my youth pastor saying, way back, lust is hard to define, but you know when you're doing it.

So I don't need to clearly define, you know when you're wrong in the area of lust. This fits into that category.

It is not always crystal clear. And you do risk that you've made a bad decision and that person will go out, but the opposite is even worse.

So in this world, it's a tough choice to make. It needs to be bathed in prayer. But anyhow, that's a policy suggestion you asked me about how to prevent in the future, and that was an answer to it.

Okay, great. We have to go to our final break, and when we come back from the break, we have a very good anonymous question.

And if anybody wants to join us, I urge you to send in your questions immediately because we are rapidly running out of time.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

Don't go away. We're going to be right back. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I have been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

And there's more great news. Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 % discount off the registration fee.

Go to g3min .org, that's g3min .org, and enter promo code

G3ISIR. That's G3ISIR for the 30 % discount.

Chris Arnzen, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd for the

G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God. Make sure you stop by the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnzen while you're there.

Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for your 30 % discount off the registration fee.

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Chris Armstrong's family of advertisers to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church. We're devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone.

Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image -bearing prophets, priests, and kings.

We teach families to worship together as families. Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea.

We sing the Psalms, teach the law, proclaim the gospel, make disciples, maintain discipline, and exalt

Christ. This is Pastor David Reis of Puritan Reformed in Phoenix, Arizona.

Join us in the glorious cause of advancing Christ's crown and covenant over the kings of the earth.

Puritan Reformed Church. Believe. Build. Fight. PuritanPHX .com

The Prince of Preachers Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,

Growing a beard is a habit most natural, scriptural, manly, and beneficial. Grace and peace to all the

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Check out the vast array of all -natural, hand -crafted products to make that beard scriptural, manly, and beneficial.

And when you do so, you will help to support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. When you use the promo code

IRON at checkout, you will receive free shipping to anywhere in the lower 48, and 10 % of your donations will go back to Chris Arnzen and Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world.

Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland, who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Italy, in County Kildare, Ireland.

Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, are largely to thank, since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr.

Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great

Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone,

Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the Triune God that continues in eternity.

For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com.

That's HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com. Or call 678 -954 -7831.

That's 678 -954 -7831. If you visit, tell them

Joe O 'Reilly, an Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener, from a tie in County Kildare, Ireland, sent you.

If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.

One such faithful advertiser, who really believes in what Chris Hansen is doing, is

Daniel P. Patafuoco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission?

To foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written word of God. They go to various churches, schools and institutions, to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts, along with a fascinating presentation by Mr.

Patafuoco, demonstrating the reliability of scripture. To advance the cause of the

Gospel, they created a beautiful, perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, from the original engravings contained in a first edition 1611

King James Bible. This 17th century hand -engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ, going back to Adam and Eve.

This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the

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Originals of this work are in museums, and nobody has ever made it accessible to the public in a large book form before.

You can have your own copy of this 44 -page genealogy book for a donation of $35 or more.

Visit historicalbiblesociety .org. That's historicalbiblesociety .org.

Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. As host of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshipped and how he shall be represented in the world.

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.

Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

.com. That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com.

Or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,

Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban, and we are always about the message of Jesus.

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959. We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.

That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit liyfc .org.

That's liyfc .org. Getting a driver's license, running a cash register, flipping burgers, passing sixth grade.

Do you know what they all have in common? They all require training, assessments, and certifications. But do you know what requires no training at all?

Becoming a parent. My name is A .M. Brewster. I'm the president of Truth, Love, Parent, and host of its award -winning podcast.

I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s, and what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.

That's why Truth, Love, Parent exists. We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents

God called and created them to be. We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.

Please visit us at truthloveparent .com. I'm Dr.

Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the

NASB. I'm Dr. Joe Moorcraft, pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Anthony Uvino, founder of thereformrookie .com

and co -founder of New York Apologetics, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

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Historical Bible Society, and the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Josh Miller of Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and the

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Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order.

Welcome back. I want to quickly remind our listeners, if you're a man in ministry leadership, you are invited to the next

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon on Thursday, April 13th, 11 a .m.

to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania in Perry County.

You will be given a free meal. You will hear excellent messages,

I'm sure, by my dear friends, Dr. William Webster and Pastor David King, who are co -authors of the groundbreaking three -volume book,

Holy Scripture, the Ground and Pillar of Our Faith. And everyone in attendance will receive a heavy sack of free brand -new books donated to me and personally selected by me from major publishers, all over the

United States and the United Kingdom, all absolutely free of charge. And this was an event started by my precious late wife in the 1990s.

So if you want more information, send me an email to chrisarnzen at gmail .com, chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

and put Free Pastors Luncheon in the subject line. Also, immediately following that, for the three days after that, from the 14th through the 16th of April, those same two men,

Dr. William Webster and Pastor David King, will be conducting a free three -day

Bible conference at a different church, Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and the theme is

The Gospel Removed by Rome, Rescued by the Reformers, and Rejected by Modern Evangelicals.

And the same thing goes for information on that. If you'd like this, send me an email to chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

and put Conference in the subject line. Unlike the Pastors Luncheon, which is only open to men, the three -day conference is open to everyone, men, women, and children.

We are now back with our guest, John Heyman, and there is a question from an anonymous listener.

What is the first step in counseling a young man, now 18, whose last 10 years at home have been plagued by parents and stepparents who were so irresponsible he had to work evenings and weekends to make mortgage payments to keep them from losing their home, and is now on his own?

Now that he has left home, I believe he is feeling freedom from the immediate burden, but I am sure he has many emotional hurdles to overcome and also grief from the current burden still placed on him for financial requests from the mother, even though she has a living mother and father of her own.

Where do you begin, since he would consider himself a Christian but shows no evidence in the way of church membership and attendance or the like?

He has experienced so many past emotional struggles. What would you say is the first approach?

Well, I will tell you, I am guessing that perhaps there is some depression there too. I can't believe that when you have been rejected by your family that you don't suffer in some way from depression.

He needs to surround himself with a few people that absolutely love him. In fact, I often tell people, you need to believe in the cheerleaders, the cheerleaders that through your life, and it may only be a few, the cheerleaders in your life that just like a basketball game are cheering for your success because there are plenty of people that are cheering for your failure in a basketball game, football game, whatever.

But in the game of life, there are people that are cheering for your success. And the worst thing you can do during a time like this is to believe in those people, even though they sometimes outnumber the cheerleaders who are on your side, believe those people that do not want you to be a success or have shown absolute, just ignoring you as a human being.

So believe in those cheerleaders. Now, what do I mean by that? List them down by name. Start with God. Start with Jesus.

Put them down by name on a piece of paper and put them on your refrigerator door. The refrigerator door is the most open and closed door in the house, and you've got to constantly remind yourself.

They call it muscle memory. You've got to constantly remind yourself who is on your side.

Call on them when you feel alone. I would say that there are a couple other suggestions, but the last one

I would say is move forward. Just like every time you get in a car, young man, you see the rearview mirror.

The rearview mirror looks behind. The front windshield looks forward. The rearview mirror is one -twentieth the size of your front windshield.

Look backwards for one minute and 19 minutes looking forward. Ephesians 6, the armor of God.

The armor of God is for the front of your body, except the helmet is salvation. It's the only piece of armor that goes around your body because nobody can take your salvation from you.

But the rest of it can be attacked. So that's the advice

I would give. Pray as if it all depends on you and work as if it all depends on God. Excuse me, the opposite.

Pray as if it all depends on God and work as if it all depends on you. Thank you,

Chris. That was a great question. Thank you, Anonymous, and you've also won a free copy of Agonizing Peace. Please make sure we have your full mailing address, so cvbbs .com.

We can ship that out to you. We want to thank, once again, KharisPublishing .com. That's K -H -A -R -I -S -Publishing .com

for providing those free books. And, John, do you have any contact information you care to share?

If any of our other listeners would like to get in touch? Yeah, sure. You can get my book on Amazon. You can get it.

It's in Kindle. I believe it's out in Audible now, christianbooks .com, Books A Million, all of the major ones.

Walmart is carrying it. So please look for it. It's not expensive. It's not a long read.

It's not deeply theological. It's very practical. I give some advice on how to deal with depression or how to deal with somebody who is depressed.

My contact information is john, J -O -N, no H, J -O -N -H -E -Y -M -A -N -N, at yahoo .com.

It's very simple. I have a couple other emails, but that's the way to get directly to me. And also try cvbbs .com

to order the book. If they don't have it, they can order it. Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com.

Thank you so much, John, for being an excellent guest today. I want to thank all of our listeners. I hope that you tune in tomorrow as another counselor will be joining us who has been our guest every month,

A .M. Brewster. I hope that you listen to that program as well. I hope that you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater