Matt Slick talking with a Mormon on the radio

Because I'm an active participant on the Mormonism board, and there seems to

be a slew of Christians that have no problem describing my God as

a puny God, because all of the differences is a puny,

limited God, which isn't what is taught in my actual religion.

And so, am I wrong in being offended by that?

I mean, am I taking it too personally?

So it says there, the Lord's bondservant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with

gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance, leading to the knowledge of the truth, so they may

come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

So see, this is how I would approach you, because this is about you.

You're held captive.

It doesn't mean I'm going to yell at you and scream, but your God is limited.

Your God is limited.

See, if I were to say, your God is limited, and he's increasing, and he's not eternal, well, that's true.

Those are just facts.

Oh, okay.

Sorry.

One more time.

Your God is not eternal.

He's not been God from eternity past.

Well, I guess that depends on how you determine doctrine.

And then it goes back into how you define God.

How is doctrine actually determined in the Mormon church?

Well, did Joseph Smith say that God became God?

Joseph Smith said that, yes, God is in the form of a man.

And he also said in the same address that we are all gods,

and we are self -existent as God is himself.

Yeah.

Well, here's the quote.

Okay.

We have all imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity.

I will refute that idea.

Okay.

That's what he says.

So God, your God, is not God from eternity.

He's an exalted man.

Great.

And also, continue reading in there how God came into existence, and it's self -existence.

Oh, see, there you go.

See, there you go.

You said how God came into existence, and that's exactly right.

So the God of Mormonism...

Just as Christians teach that God is an...

Sorry, go ahead.

Sorry.

The God of Mormonism had a beginning, but the God of the Bible did not.

Okay.

No, He did not have a beginning.

Your God did.

You just said.

He did.

He always existed.

God is eternal.

No, no, no, no, no.

Where do you prove that?

Where does it show in the standard works that my God had a beginning?

Well, I'm quoting your prophet, Joseph Smith.

Do you believe that your God was God from all eternity?

But Mormons don't believe that we don't appeal to authority alone.

I didn't ask that.

That's in D &C 121.

It says, by the virtue of the priesthood, we don't declare...

As soon as we say something is true by the virtue of a priesthood, then that's not inspired by the Holy Ghost.

You have to have a scripture, priesthood authority, and personal revelation by the Holy Ghost to confirm if something is

true or not.

That's wrong.

But that's not scriptural.

Based on what?

The scripture.

But I want to stick with this.

Oh, hold on.

We've got a break.

Hold on.

You want to hold on a little bit, Aaron?

I mean, if you don't mind.

You want to continue talking?

Okay.

All right.

Aaron, you still there?

Yes.

Okay.

All right.

Where were we?

I forgot.

You were describing, we were talking about how Mormons determine doctrine.

Yeah.

And well, you guys, you know, you'll go to the four standard works

and stuff.

And I'll quote Joseph's...

What's that?

What's that?

They are the standard works because they are the measuring stick, as one of our former leaders said,

that the standard works are the measuring stick by which we measure all men's doctrine.

Okay.

So if somebody says something, regardless of his title, if it doesn't align within the standard works,

we can set it aside.

That's a direct quote.

Okay.

Well, then let's test it.

All right.

Let's test it.

So Joseph Smith said things, right?

Right?

Yeah.

He said lots of things.

Okay.

And he said that...

As did Brigham Young.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They both did.

That's right.

And so if Joseph Smith contradicted the Bible, that would be...

He'd be wrong if he did.

Right?

If he what?

If he contradicted the Bible, he'd be wrong.

If he did what with the Bible?

If he contradicted the Bible, he'd be wrong.

If he did.

Right?

Sure.

Well, he wouldn't...

Then he would be speaking of his own beliefs and not speaking on behalf of God.

And then we can know for ourselves through our own scripture study and my personal revelation, the truth of the Spirit, to know the truth

for ourselves.

Yeah.

Incidentally, it's singular fruit, not fruits.

It's a common mistake people make.

All right.

So everything depends...

The truth of Mormonism depends on Joseph Smith's first vision, doesn't it?

Right?

Well, okay.

Because hypothetically, let's just say...

Let's just say that you and I got a time machine and we're able to do this.

And let's just say we went back and there's Joseph Smith walking.

He can't see us.

And we find out that he lied about the first vision.

Let's just say that's the case.

Well, then Mormonism is just flat out false.

If that ridiculous idea is possible.

Right?

Yeah.

Okay.

Well...

Sure, if that's...

But also, nothing was actually restored at the first vision.

He was just asking what church was true.

And he received his revelation that at the time, that none of them were true.

That was his answer.

That the church restoration didn't actually happen until 1830.

So it really goes back to his claims of priesthood authority and knowing what's true or not.

And that goes back to reading the Book of Mormon to know if that's true.

And following its methodologies to know that.

So, I mean, yeah, we could go back to the first vision of what he said.

But I don't see how that would...

That doesn't have quite a direct...

Sure it does.

Because he said he saw...

I don't believe the Book of Mormon because of what Joseph Smith did.

You know, regardless of who Joseph Smith was, I can say that I know for myself that I know that the Book of Mormon is

true.

I know it's false.

So here's the thing.

Here's the thing.

Joseph Smith.

How?

Joseph Smith.

Let me show you something.

I can prove it to you.

Okay.

But there's proof that's different than persuasion.

But I'm trying to get this one point because he said he saw God the Father.

That's what he said.

But the Bible says...

I'll read the King James.

Okay.

The Bible says in 1 Timothy 6, I'll start at verse 13.

I give thee charge in the sight of God...

Okay, that'd be the Father.

...who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession,

that thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,

which in His time He shall shew, who is the blessed and only potentate, the King of kings, and the Lord of

lords, who alone hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto,

whom no man hath seen or can see.

To Him be the honor, glory, and the glory ever lasting.

Okay.

So...

Right.

Okay.

So I understand what you're saying.

And you want to lead it back to God.

The Father doesn't have a body, but He's a spirit.

And I understand that.

No, no, no.

And to be clear...

No, that's not what it is.

It says the God the Father can't be seen.

But that's what you're saying, that no one has seen God, right?

That's what you're...

No, that's what the Bible says.

It says no one can approach unto whom no man hath seen or can see.

So it says you can't see Him.

That's what the Bible says.

So did Joseph Smith see Him?

So no one has seen God in the Bible.

The Father.

God the Father, that's correct.

No one's seen God the Father.

That's correct.

Because Jesus says in John 6, 46,.

Jesus says, John 6, 46, not that any man has seen the Father, except the one talking about himself.

He has seen the Father.

So all the Old Testament appearances of God...

So who were they interacting with?

In the Old Testament?

Okay.

So who were people interacting with in the Old Testament?

You mean in Genesis 3 and Genesis 19,

excuse me, 18, 1, 17, 1, 18, 1, Exodus 24, 9 -11, Exodus 6, 2, and 3, Numbers 12, 6 -8.

Who were they interacting with?

Right.

Pre -incarnate Christ.

Mm -hmm.

It was never the Father because Jesus says no man's ever seen the Father.

And Paul the Apostle says the Father can't be seen.

So did Joseph Smith see the Father?

Okay.

Did he see the Father?

Well, that's a great question.

And that's something that I question myself.

However, I do want to add that Mormons also teach that

Jesus is the God of the Old Testament.

So they would actually agree with you in that statement.

Well, then no problem.

So it wasn't the Father they were seeing in the Old Testament.

Great.

No problem.

So now we've got the New Testament and the Father can't be seen according to Jesus and Paul.

Right.

And so Joseph Smith said that he...

Right.

He saw the Father.

Okay.

And so here's a problem that I have with Joseph Smith's testimony is I agree of

seeing God the Father.

I don't know.

I don't know what the nature of God the Father is.

And I also know the origin of how that teaching in my church came about to be.

Do you want to hear it?

No.

But I'm just saying that he said he saw God the Father in the First Vision and he

couldn't have.

So did he lie?

And he gave seven different accounts.

He gave seven different accounts of the First Vision.

Yeah.

They all contradict each other.

They have very different details.

One is that he was just forgiven of his sins.

And then he saw numerous concourse of angels.

Okay.

So let me ask you.

And then he saw the Father and Jesus Christ and it progressed.

So I don't exactly know what he saw.

Do you believe he saw God the Father?

To me, it doesn't matter.

I believe that he translated the Book of Mormon by the power of God.

Well, let's let's tackle that.

Okay.

I don't know if you know if you've ever seen an original Book of Mormon.

I have.

And I've held in my own hands an original Book of Mormon.

Okay.

I actually have.

It's not a big deal.

Okay.

But I have.

All right.

And so do you know how the Book of Mormon was translated?

Allegedly.

Okay.

I spend a lot of time on the Mormonism board.

Yeah.

I've seen it all.

Yes.

So you do know.

Okay.

So he, for those who don't know, he had a stone and he put it into a hat, put the hat over his face,

and then God would make a single letter appear one at a time.

He would say the letter and then Oliver Cowdery on the other side of the thing would record.

It.

Okay.

Great.

Now we've got a break.

Hold on.

I'm going to show you something that proves he was lying.

Okay.

Prove it.

Okay.

That's hard.

I know.

But I'll do that when I get back.

Joseph Smith said that he translated the Book of Abraham by the same power, the same method

that he did the Book of Mormon.

Right.

And 18.

Exactly.

Yeah.

He bought the Book of Abraham papyri and then translated it.

1835, I think.

Yeah. Something like that.

Yeah.

And so he said, this is the Book of Abraham.

He reproduced the facsimile.

I have an article on this.

Images.

And long story short, he got it so wrong.

There's no direct translation.

Yeah.

He got it so wrong.

In fact, it is the very same papyri because it has his handwriting in the back of it.

He said it was the Book of Abraham.

And when the Egyptian was finally decoded and they could look at it and interpret it, translate it, it had

nothing to do whatsoever with Joseph Smith's said.

Okay.

There's a fact.

All right.

Yep.

And the church comments out their gospel essays about

all of that.

Yep.

And so they had to address it because it's pretty, you know, pretty bad.

Yeah.

Because it was always understood to believe that it was a direct translation and it wasn't.

Oh, so he said it was the Book of Abraham.

It wasn't.

That's what he said.

But that's okay.

So if you know, let's, let's just say that you believe something and you are so

certain.

That it's true, but yet you believe it.

But it turns out that you were, let's say that it turns out that whatever you were so convinced about that you were wrong

later, or could I say that you were lying to me or you were being deceptive?

Oh, no, not on purpose.

No, no, no.

Or did you honestly believe what I'm saying?

Yeah.

He believed it was the Book of Abraham and he was wrong.

And he translated it, but he translated it with the same power of the

Book of Mormon and he got it wrong.

What makes you trust him?

Yes, because it wasn't a direct translation, but that's the point.

But we don't have a golden place either to read the golden place to make comparisons.

Because he didn't exist.

So in other words, there's a message.

Maybe there's a message that God had for the world and he

did it through Joseph Smith, even though those direct things weren't, you

know, a literal text.

Maybe the message matters.

So let me get this straight.

So what you're saying is you believe Joseph Smith was true, even though he said he saw God the Father, but the Bible says he couldn't have

and that he did the Book of Mormon the same way he did the Book of Abraham.

And he said it was a Book of Abraham, but it wasn't.

And you're just going to continue to believe in him.

And the Bible says that the law of the prophets...

No, I'm saying that I received personal...

No, you didn't.

You didn't receive personal anything.

What?

No, no, no.

It wasn't from God.

You're now the moderator of how I receive revelation from God?

No, I'm telling you.

That's pretty amazing.

No, I'm telling you, you didn't because Joseph Smith taught things that were against.

Scripture.

Okay.

And so he's not from God.

Again, I'm not...

So it all rests on Joseph Smith.

The whole character of Joseph Smith is how I discern everything about my relationship.

With God.

Joseph Smith said that God said in the Book of Mormon, pray about the Book of Mormon.

Joseph Smith told you that.

Okay.

And you know what?

Yes, that's right.

He said, do A, B, and C, and you'll get a result.

That's the scientific method.

Okay.

A, B, and C, you get the result.

And the Book of Mormon is true to its promises.

That's how I know that it's true.

It is self -fulfilling.

No, it's not.

Yes, it is.

The Book of Mormon has...

Pray about it.

Read it.

No, you...

Pray about it.

Where'd you get the idea?

Where'd you get the idea to pray about something to see if it's true?

Where'd you get that?

So we are not to pray.

I didn't say...

See, you guys do this a lot.

I'm trying to be respectful here, but you do this a lot.

I said, where does it say that we're supposed to pray about something to see if it's true?

And you said, oh, we're not supposed to pray?

That's not what I said.

So where do you get the idea that we're supposed to pray about something to see if it's true?

I get it from the Book of Mormon.

But you're praying about the Book of Mormon to see...

To pray, you know, and the Holy Ghost will lead you and guide you.

But doesn't the Book of Mormon...

You're talking about Moroni 10 .32, right?

Or 10 .35?

10 .35, actually, yeah.

Yeah.

And it says to pray about these things to see if they're not true, right?

Yes.

Did you see?

Did you pray?

So what was your answer?

Was your answer the affirmative or the negative?

Yes, absolutely in the affirmative.

So, in other words, the affirmative is that it's not true.

To pray about it to see if it's not true.

You got the affirmative.

It's not true.

Oh, my gosh.

I received a witness that I know that the Book of Mormon is true.

You can try and skirmish that around all you want.

But I received a witness, unmistakably, that I could not deny.

If I did, it'd be like denying my own conscience.

Look, let me tell you something.

OK, let me tell you something.

OK, I'm 67 and 50 years ago when I was 17, I walked up forward at a church.

I'm going to give you the short version.

Forward at a church to receive Christ, even though it's not what I wanted to do.

I kind of got tricked into walking up forward.

I didn't care about this or that.

I didn't care about whatever.

I'd look at the exit sign in this so -called church.

I want to get out of there, all this kind of stuff.

And then the guy, you know, living, he said, you want to receive Christ as your savior.

And I figured I might as well give Jesus a try.

Because if he's real, he won't lose anything.

If he's not, eh, whatever.

It was my attitude.

I mustered a little bit of faith.

And by the way, about 30 years ago, I buried my son.

He died in my arms.

OK, and I'm not.

Thank you.

And I hope it never happens to you.

But you can imagine and I hope it never has or anybody listening.

How maximally painful that is.

It's just horrible.

It's horrible.

Sure.

All right.

So here I am on my knees.

Blah, blah, blah.

I don't follow the crowd.

And I started praying.

And then all of a sudden.

The Holy Spirit himself overshadowed me with such

incredible strength and power that I threw my face to the ground and

immediately started wailing in agony and sobbing tears of repentance because I was in

the presence of incredible holiness.

And this went on for like two minutes.

I was puking up, not literally vomiting, but puking up the agony of my soul in just

torturous repentance in the presence of the beauty of his holiness.

This went on and I cried then worse and far

greater than the day I buried my son.

Then after about two minutes of this, Jesus was there.

He was to my left and he was behind me.

I couldn't see him, couldn't touch him.

It wasn't like that.

But I remember I still to this second can remember knowing that he was right there next to me

considering me.

And I remember going, what is going on?

It was incredible.

It was incredible.

It was magnificent.

It was just tremendous.

And then after a while, he just stepped into me and

I had a sensation of sin leaving.

OK, now I'm giving you the short version.

That was 50 years ago.

I've calmed down quite a bit since then.

So when you're in the presence of God, I have a testimony.

I've never heard a Mormon match.

And I know for a fact that Joseph Smith was not true because I've been in the presence of

God himself.

And this is what Joseph Smith said.

OK, can I share my experience?

Well, hold on.

I'm going to tell you what Joseph Smith said.

You tell me if Joseph Smith was in the presence of God.

He says, God is in the still small voice and all these affidavits, indictments, and there's all the devil, all corruption.

Come on, you prosecutors, you false swears, all hell boil over.

You burning mountains roll down your lava for I will come out on top at last.

I have more to boast of than ever any man had.

I'm the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam.

A large majority of the whole have stood by me.

Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it.

I boast that no man ever did such work as I.

The followers of Jesus ran away from him, but the Latter -day Saints never ran away from me yet.

Well, I read that quote.

I read that quote.

I knew he died weeks later than me.

He was killed.

That's right.

Murdered.

He was murdered.

Yeah.

Not as a martyr, though.

But here's the thing.

He got killed.

Yeah.

But anybody who's been in the presence of God doesn't speak like that.

Oh, I don't know.

I mean, after a while, Satan can get ahold of you thinking that you're because I've had this great

spiritual experience.

I must be chosen.

And I am, therefore, superior to anyone else's beliefs.

Therefore, everyone must conform to me.

That's not what I said.

Because I know this great knowledge that no one else does.

That's not what I said, but that's what Joseph Smith said.

You want to compare?

No.

We've got a break.

We've got a break.

Hold on.

Sorry, Ben.

If you want to hold on, peep.

But if not, well, you know, it's up to you.

Hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages.

Please stay tuned.

Yep, I'm still here.

Okay.

So you said you had a testimony you couldn't deny.

And I gave you a testimony that I can't deny.

And they contradict each other.

So which one's true?

When you had your experience, that was a confirmation that Mormonism was false?

Or was it that you just received the Holy Spirit?

No, that the Holy Spirit was there, such great power, that when I read that quote from Joseph Smith, I knew for a

fact he hadn't seen God.

Because you will never boast like that.

It's not possible for someone who's truly of God.

It's not possible.

Hmm.

I'm not so sure about that.

And if you want to say that,.

I can tell you that I've received,.

You see,.

I believe that, why was Moses kept out of the promised land?

Because he disobeyed God.

But he didn't circumcise the Son of Step.

Right.

So,.

A true converted person that's seen God, not make a mistake like that?

That's what you're saying.

Certainly they make a mistake.

But did anybody, any prophet or any apostle in the Bible ever boast they did more than God?

More than Christ?

More than anybody to do something?

Of course not.

But Joseph Smith did.

I'm just saying that it is possible for a righteous man to fall.

Absolutely it is.

Absolutely it is.

But you don't find any record of them boasting they did more than God.

You don't find them boasting they did more than God.

Yeah, I know.

And, right.

And when an unrighteous man is leader of the church

and leading the church in the wrong direction, he's going to take him out of his place.

And a month later, Joseph Smith was dead after making that statement.

Yeah, that's right.

They killed him.

They shouldn't have.

And he killed two people.

He shot people.

And he probably did that because he got the secret handshakes and stuff from the masons.

And he used that in the temple.

Yeah.

Because he said, is there no help for the widow's son,

when they were coming at him in Carthage jail?

I've been there and they did this.

Oh, goodness.

Okay.

Yeah, we're getting deep.

I would say that my point is that people can know God without having to conform

to your beliefs.

They can know for themselves.

And that's kind of the point of Mormonism is that we can know for ourselves.

Except you don't, because your testimony you believe comes from the Holy Spirit.

And I'll show you something here.

The Father and the Son send the Holy Spirit.

John 14, 26, John 15, 26.

But Jesus reveals the Father.

Teach all things.

Bring all things to your remembrance.

And Jesus is the only one who reveals the Father, Matthew 11, 28.

So if you don't have the right Jesus, you don't have the right God or spirit or testimony or anything, right?

Right?

It's simple.

Well, then how, but then the question is, how do you determine who the right Jesus is?

Which Bible?

King James.

Just go to King James.

There's multiple different early church fathers that determine what canon was.

No, no, no.

I'm sorry.

Hold on.

Hold on.

That's not what you shouldn't go there.

You don't know.

So the King James, which is one of your four standard works, we can go there because your church approves it.

So we go to the King James.

Because when Peter testified that he knew that Jesus was the Christ, Jesus said,

flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my father, which is in heaven.

Yes.

Okay.

And what I see you doing right now is appealing to flesh and blood to tell me, try and convince me

that God isn't really in my life.

He's not.

That's what you're trying to say.

Yeah, I am trying to do that because I want you to become a true Christian.

My heart.

So I need to appeal to your reasoning, your flesh and blood limited reasoning to justify and question my

own experience of what God has told me.

No, I never said that.

Don't you think there's a problem there?

But you're misrepresenting me.

I'm saying you should go to what the Bible says because the Bible says, and I was quoting scripture and

then what you did was try and negate the validity of the Bible.

Which version?

Which this?

Which that?

King James.

The one that you guys approve of.

And in there, it says that.

But before King James,.

What was that?

Look, we're going with what your church recognizes as one of its standard works unless you want to deny it

as being one of the standard works.

Is that what you're doing?

I'm identifying the history of the Bible.

So the King James is one of your standard works and in the King James,

in the King James, it says that Jesus reveals the Father.

It also says that Jesus is prayed to.

In fact, he's prayed to in 2 Nephi 19, 18, or 35, 1918.

He's prayed to.

So do you pray to Jesus?

Because he is our advocate with the Father and it's always been the case.

Do you pray to Jesus?

He's the God of the Old Testament.

Do you pray to Jesus?

Do you pray to Jesus?

In every instance of the Bible, it says pray to Jesus.

I didn't say that.

Jesus himself says pray to the Father in my name.

Am I supposed to?

No, no, nevermind.

I'm supposed to pray to Jesus.

He says that in Matthew chapter 6 and also Luke chapter 11.

Our Father who art in heaven, pray this way.

Pray to me.

But he also says in John 14, 14, ask me anything in my name and I will do it.

He says in John 16,.

Has a vision of God the Father and Jesus or the glory of God the Father.

You didn't see him.

He's the glory of God the Father and Jesus.

But ultimately,.

Hold on, hold on.

He prayed to Jesus.

If I wanted to pray to Jesus, sure.

Okay.

So the Jesus,.

The Jesus rule out.

I can also pray to the Father that Jesus instructed.

That you pray to Jesus, the person of Christ.

Oh, I'm sorry.

Is there a separation between Jesus and God?

I just asked if you pray to the person of Jesus.

Because no, I don't.

I follow Jesus's instruction as he taught in as he taught his people

in the Beatitudes to pray to the Father.

And he also taught ask me anything in my name and I will do it.

John 14, 14.

And Stephen prayed to him.

And in the Book of Mormon.

He saw the Son on the right hand of the Father.

No, he didn't see the Father.

He saw the glory of God and Jesus the right hand and also 3rd Nephi 19, 18.

They did pray to Jesus.

So Joseph Smith understood it was okay to pray to Jesus.

So the Jesus of the Bible is true.

Do you pray to the Jesus of the Bible?

Do you pray?

This is an interesting turn of I think this is kind of a red herring.

Don't you think?

I mean, we started with how Mormons determine doctrine and now we're talking about if

the duality of I should pray to the Jesus versus the Father that really doesn't.

Well, look, 3rd Nephi 19, 18.

We're marking up the wrong tree here.

No, it's not.

And behold, they began to pray and they did pray into Jesus calling him their Lord and you're

calling him you call Jesus your God?

Yes, Jesus is my Lord and God.

Okay, so do you pray to him?

I pray to the Father in his name.

Okay, good.

You pray to the Father.

I get that.

I acknowledge you saying you pray to the Father.

Now, here's my question.

Do you pray to Jesus?

The answer is no.

And yet the Jesus of the Bible.

No, you don't.

I do not know.

Because I don't distinguish them.

I don't create a different altar for Jesus and a different altar for God.

I consider them one considered as the Godhead.

Why did the Book of Mormon Joseph Smith teach that you pray to Jesus in 3rd Nephi 19, 18?

And why is Stephen praying to Jesus?

That is a mystery, right?

And like I said, I don't know if the Father has a body or not.

I can tell you.

The Scripture has not revealed that to me.

Okay, here's the thing.

Because Joseph Smith didn't know his because the Book of Mormon doesn't agree with Mormonism.

It has contradicted Mormon theology and it wasn't until after he codified the Book of Mormon.

Oh, yes, absolutely.

Yes, it does.

Look, I know a lot about Mormonism.

No, you think you do, but you know anti -Mormonism and you still have not answered.

The four standard works and the prophet and his office that

issue varying decrees and certain statements that are supposed to be consistent with those four standard works in order to

determine doctrine, right?

Correct.

See, so I do know.

All right.

So from your standard works.

But you're bringing up points that don't align with Scripture.

I just quoted your Book of Mormon.

And I didn't.

I didn't pray to Jesus.

Oh, then just do it right now.

What would the point be?

Because of this great question.

Here's the point.

Jesus says, Matthew 28, 18.

So Jesus forgives sins.

Luke 5, 20.

He's our high priest.

Hebrews 6, 20 and 7, 25.

So can you pray to Jesus and ask Jesus to forgive you of all of your sins.

Because I can and I have.

So you said you don't pray to Jesus.

This is my experience.

Okay.

When I was 17, I wanted to know why they crucify Jesus.

How could they be that cruel?

And Jesus came to visit me in a dream and I felt the deepest love I have ever felt in my entire life

beyond the moral experience and I knew.

That I was going to be a Mormon.

Is that what you're going to say now?

Satan disguises himself.

I'm not conforming to your belief system.

No, that's not what I'm saying.

Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

2 Corinthians 11, 14.

See, this final word is not your...

Paul says that he wasn't taught by men.

Paul said he wasn't taught by men but he received a personal revelation for himself.

So how do you know that Paul wasn't deceived by Satan?

Because Luke, who did the research, wrote the gospel of Luke and the

book of Acts and in there found that Jesus called Paul personally in Acts chapter

9 to be his disciple and he says he saw the risen Lord in 1 Corinthians 9 .1 so therefore

he's a true apostle and so we can go with that.

But Joseph Smith, no, because he said he saw God the Father and the Bible says you can't.

You can't.

He lied to you.

Okay, so God has to go to you first to tell you that my

experience is valid and that's the way that works.

No, I'm going to the scripture and you're misrepresenting what I'm saying.

Go to the scriptures.

The Bible says, for example, that the Father dwells in unapproachable light.

So because of Luke's testimony, Paul has validity.

That's what you're saying.

No, Luke simply wrote down what the apostles said.

And it was written by a Christian writer.

And it was recognized as being scripture by the church and it's in the King James Version which you would recognize as well.

And Paul the Apostle says that the Father cannot be seen and you believe Joseph Smith

saw the Father.

So who's correct?

God's word?

I never said that.

Oh, do you believe Joseph Smith saw the Father?

Yes or no?

I said I don't know.

Oh, you don't know.

I'm saying that I know how that doctrine was developed I know where it came in and when it was

introduced into the history of the church and I said, you want to know?

You said, no, you don't.

So I believe that that's a cultural belief that has developed over time in my religion, in my church.

Well, that's what it says.

Look, we're out of time.

I don't necessarily agree with it.

The news is going to start in like 15 seconds.

So I'm going to say this is

they need to treat you more politely.

Okay, they do.

All right.

All right.

Thank you so much.

Call back another time.

I enjoyed talking to you.

All right.

Talk to you later.

Hey, folks.