October 30, 2003

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white. Well, I'm awful glad those Roman Catholic apologists call in aren't you I hope you're just listening to the Bible answer man broadcast Bill Webster is on with Hank Hanegraaff and we had a Roman Catholic apologist call in and He's a deacon in the Catholic Church do not Confuse that with What a deacon would be doing in a an evangelical church.

It's a little bit of a well, all of the basic biblical offices have become massively complex and Permutated and everything else in in Roman Catholicism. But anyway, this is the guy who calls in he's called in before I think I do recognize the voice and and I guess he maybe he didn't understand.

It hasn't funny the the title of the the the three book set That is available for a penny less by the way at a omen org Holy Scripture the ground and pillar of our faith many Catholics have just absolutely Jumped all over that.

That's not what it says the Bible says the church is the pillar and the ground and pillar of the faith and so on so forth of the truth. Actually, and they don't even bother to you know, read inside and find out where the title came from.

It's a quote from Irenaeus and The whole point is to to explain the early church fathers view on the subject of the relationship scripture, so the guy calls in and And he quotes verse 73 15 and he says where is the Bible ever say That the scriptures are the ground and pillar of our faith.

And so, of course Bill mentioned second Timothy chapter 3 and then he goes over to first Timothy chapter 3 points out that that passage Does say that the church is the pillar and ground of the truth? But of course a pillar and a foundation hold something else up.

In fact, the church is differentiated from the truth at that point. There is a close intimate relationship. There's there's no reason to cede to Rome the the high ground on the church because Rome's view of the church is lesser than that of the New Testament, even though she has a distorted Grossly disfigured view of the church.

It is not a higher view than that of the New Testament. And in fact, I would say that that by by insisting that the church is infallible in her Clearly human and erroneous pronouncements Rome has has grossly disconnected the church.

From the the true basis that it's supposed to have in the scriptures. But yet as it may there's no reason to you know for first Timothy 315. We should be aggressive whenever a Roman Catholic cites that we should we should demonstrate.

We have it memorized that we've looked at we understand it. We should be able to point out the context point out that was actually talking about a local church there. Look at the context first Timothy chapter 3 and say you better believe I believe in fact, I believe it more than you do.

But I don't make that into what you make it into and and so Bill went went there mentioned that and then goes to Irenaeus. Well, then you have the standard Roman Catholic apologetic methodology immediately kicking in.

Because well Irenaeus also said this won't stop. Wait a second. Well, dude one of the two of us Talks about the unanimous consent of the fathers. One of the two of us is The one always saying that well, we've been around for 2 ,000 years.

And it's the Church Fathers to teach what we believe and not what you believe and as soon as you start demonstrating that in reality It there is this wide range of differing opinions and that we can go toe-to-toe.

We can stand toe-to-toe with the Roman Catholic a quote quote quote quote quote quote well see the problem is that's fine for us because we're recognizing that these were people who were writing and some of them were were well grounded and well taught and some were not and.

Therefore you're gonna find all sorts of different viewpoints amongst them. We do not make them in essence containers of tradition. That have to in some way be absolutely consistent with one another because they're not anyone who reads early Church Fathers.

Knows that outside of monotheism. You're pretty much not going to get a whole lot of unanimous agreement amongst all these people there's just that many different viewpoints that are being expressed on all sorts of different things and so.

So what happens is? Well, it Irenaeus also said you need to be a part of the church. Well, how is well? What's what's the relevance of that unless you're assuming as the caller was assuming? That the church of the days of Irenaeus Was in point of fact the Roman Church, and that's what you have to challenge.

Where did Irenaeus ever identify it in that way? Where did Irenaeus submit himself to the to the dogmas that Rome teaches today are the concept of infallible Roman prelate? Well, there is no such thing obviously.

And it wasn't the Roman Church that existed at that time that is very common for the Roman Catholic to assume that. But it is untrue and needs to be challenged you need to recognize that the part of the of the thinking.

On the part of the of the person with whom you're speaking, but then it was really interesting. Bill went through a list. He mentioned Rufinus. He mentioned Jerome Origin. I'm not sure if he mentioned origin Cyril of Jerusalem.

He mentioned Melito of Sardis and. And the the fellow responded seemingly no knowing he was going to hear that and then all the way down the cardinal Cayetan the the prelate interviewed Luther prior to the died of worms and and what was that 1518 somewhere on there and He went through all these different individuals, but I'm not sure if we remember if the I think he mentioned Pope Gregory the Great Bill normally does but anyways he mentions these people and.

Do you catch what happened at the after that? Well but you know if you look in the writings those individuals, they also rejected certain New Testament books and. Therefore if we go with them, then you have to lose some New Testament books.

Well back up the truck first of all I'd like to see who who is he talking about? Which which ones are which which these individuals is he talking about? Secondly was it in the same context. Third what we're saying here is there was no unanimous consent of the fathers in regards the apocrypha and Beyond that let's say that's true.

How is that relevant? The point is they're trying to say there's this Ecclesiastical tradition and here's a bunch of people most of whom were bishops. I mean Melito Sardis was was the bishop of the church at Sardis at the end of the second century.

That had no knowledge of this alleged apostolic tradition. You've got Gregory the Great the Pope in the very same Book that became the very foundation of the medieval development of the doctrine of purgatory rejecting first Maccabees.

Doesn't he know this tradition? Remember, you know Rome loves to make these these grand assertions about her tradition or authority and stuff. But then when you press them all of a sudden they they switch the grounds on you so quickly That you can you can hardly even even catch them in in the act.

That's something that that you know I remember watching a particular debate that I wasn't involved in it's one of the few that wasn't involved in and and that was one of the most frustrating things was that I Would see these Catholic apologists engaging in cheap debating tricks.

I mean they you know, some of them don't do it on Purpose it's just the way they've been trained to think and to do things. Remember fundamentally they have to be circular in their reasoning. Rome is their ultimate authority.

Rome can't be wrong. And so since Rome is wrong, then there has to by definition be a a twisting of the facts to to maintain their position and so there's this this this subtle shifting of the ground and you just simply can't Can't catch them on it unless you're listening very very very carefully.

So it was interesting to hear that I'll be very interested in seeing or hearing the rest of it tomorrow. Don't forget that right now. In fact, they are recording. The next hour it's four o 'clock in the 409 now in California so they're they're recording the second hour and if there's enough calls.

Then during one of the breaks Hank will get on the line or somebody in the control room gun line say Bill do you can you go? Thanks bill, can you go an extra hour? And you know if he can then they'll end up doing three, I don't know it all depends.

They've got they've for some reason gotten a little bit more Structured at that point back when I First started doing Bible answer and broadcast like we did the King James only kind of versus the first time I was ever on.

You know, we went for three hours and still had plenty of calls on hold. We could have done four and Something tells me that in December when we do Calvinism that we're gonna have a lot of. So It is possible that it could go three hours unless they because as I was like at the schedule.

There's nothing scheduled for the the third day. Which would be a Friday or Monday at least I didn't think there was but anyway, it's possible. We could go three hours, but they're they're recording those right now.

I'll be very soon to see who calls tomorrow. See if there's going to be some more of these Catholic apologists these. Especially the amateurs that love to try to get on there and and throw their favorite arguments around you never know what is under those blinking lights as you.

As you get ready to pick up that telephone and well, of course don't pick up the telephone. It's just you see it on a screen. There's a there's a guest screen. It's a computer screen and you see what the names of the the callers are.

I normally try to bring a little notepad with me and jot that down so I can use the callers name if at all possible and Then you have a description of the call sort of like we do here except they have an actual system that's supposed to do it.

But but I get a little brief description of what the caller wants to talk about. Well. Very often that only gives you just the vaguest idea of what's actually gonna end up coming up. Sometimes it's just because the person doesn't know how to express their question more clearly.

There are other times though when in reality what's due to is the fact that they're let's face it. They're dishonest callers. They they know or at least they think anyway that they aren't going to get on if they honestly express their disagreement or if they honestly are going to ask a tough question, so they'll they'll actually sort of mislead you and how they.

They phrase the question initially to the call screener and then they get on the air and boom. There's you know, there's that kind of thing. So anyway, someone just asking was Bill's studio no, Bill was on a phone line there and only once on I think I've been on BAM at least 12 times 12 13 times something like that and once I was not in studio and You probably listening to archives, which of course you have to get tapes now or mp3s or something.

We probably would have a hard time recognizing which one it was. The reason being I had intended to be in studio I had gone to the airport and my flight was canceled and there was just no way to to get a car and drive over there In in time to make it and so I went to a local radio station.

That is Associated with the Salem broadcasting network, which is what Hank is on which is what Bob Lansing has on and we did it. What's called an ISDN hookup? And it's a high quality phone line and It really well said if any of you've heard when Dave Hunt was on with me on at KPX cues same station it sounded like he was in in studio in studio with me and That's that's in essence What we did and so we did one of those programs.

I wasn't in studio, you know, I didn't enjoy it nearly as much. It is much easier To look at the person you're talking to it. There's more chemistry. There's you can have conversations during the breaks.

It's just it's hard to sit on a phone line and and do that kind of thing. I've done hundreds of radio programs on the phone. There's I mean all the time and eventually you do get used to it but still there's a there's an element of chemistry that you can have in studio and I have every intention Lord willing of Being in studio in December because it's just it's just the the only way to do it and especially If there's going to be another guest which there's going to be George Bryson we need to be in the studio just as I've been the studio with James Aiken and and Tim Staples and and You know when I've when I've had the opportunity of being on with someone else.

You're really at an extreme disadvantage if the person you're debating is in studio with the host and you're not. I've had that happen a few times and That's that is just that's very very difficult to do so Lord willing I will be in the studio even though I arrived back the day before from being gone for two and a half weeks In Florida and other parts of the globe so it's going to be This fall I've said to a lot of friends.

I'm scheduling a Scheduling a nervous breakdown for the 17th of December it's just Mmm been going really really really really fast eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven Seven five three three three four one.

That's the phone number. You can get involved the program today if you have some comments on what you just heard on BAM for example with Bill Webster, I think I know the the three volumes set well enough to be of assistance to you and We I actually asked David King who it was initially identified as the person who was on the air.

I asked David King to be with me, but David's out of town so he would have loved to have been. We've had of course David and And a bill on together some of you may recall the mr. X debacle that was so illustrative of Robertson Janice and the people associated with him and So we've had them on before both to discuss their books and related issues.

So they're good friends in the ministry. That's why we're right on our front page. We have an announcement about by lance man today and tomorrow and and so on so forth and we move this. Oh, by the way, I we need to Before we go to our first call here.

We need to Make sure that we're on the same page here. We are going to be changing The times yet again mainly due to the fact that the rest y 'all just won't stand up and Tell your governmental officials that you're sick and tired of playing with your clocks.

You know those time those little things you're supposed to you know wind up or they run on batteries. You plug them into the wall. You're supposed to just let them run folks. Okay, and This stuff that came around the early 1900s about daylight savings time, you know.

It's just unnatural and it's not worthwhile. And the problem is now what has happened is that since you all are back Now and everybody's on standard time That now places a four o 'clock Phoenix time on a Thursday At six o 'clock back east and three o 'clock in the Pacific time zone.

We just had a lot of folks saying You know, we just we just can't make it the timing is all wrong and everything else so I think that what we are supposed to be doing is in essence and He was in charge these things needs to be Making sure that we know I'm getting this right because I forgot to ask about it Basically, we're switching the days, right?

Hello. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, there you are. You are correct, sir. Okay, so Tuesday evening Tuesday evening go ahead. Give it a try. No, I'm waiting for you Tuesday evening 5 p .m. I stand around Mountain Standard time 7 p .m. Eastern Standard and On Thursday morning at 11 11, which would be 1 p .m. Eastern Standard.

So we're going back to what we were doing About a month or so ago, but we're just switching Tuesday and Thursday. That's correct. Okay. Well that works and well One of the things that that might help a little bit with is I frequently have to leave on Thursdays for flights But they're often afternoon flights because then I speak on a Friday or something like that so that We were losing a lot of Thursday evenings.

We might not lose as many Thursday mornings to do Thursday evenings as far as the timing goes but so Tuesday evening at 5 o 'clock Mountain Standard time and if you can't figure out what that is, well, you probably should be watching TBN.

Anyways, and then 11 a .m. On on Thursdays and Sound like you were eating something out there. You're not eating while I'm doing the program. Yeah. Well, I wasn't eating on the air But you're eating something earlier Like ice cream or something macadamia nut.

Oh, that's terrible. Yeah. No, I I knew you'd be thrilled. I really appreciate that. Well, anyway, I had cashews before that. I know how you feel about them. Yeah, that's true. That's true I think I have some cashews in here I could be eating them myself, but that'd be extremely rude to do that While actually talking with folks and things like that eight seven seven seven five three three three four one let's go ahead and start taking the phone because and let's talk with Fred in.

Election, Corporate Election, and the Sufficiency of Scripture

Canyon Country California. Where is that at? Oh you asked me that question the last time?

Well, the reason I asked that is because are you on fire is the question?

Well, no, we are sitting in a among the fires. We see lots of smoke. But most of them have been sort of beat down now, I think. Hmm, but past week has been a lot of smoke actually and well, we're smelling it over here now.

Oh, really? Oh, yeah, because we're getting the the whole flow has changed and the winds about.

Yeah before it was like coming off the desert and so all the smoke would blow away from us and then I think the other night the The Breeze came off the ocean and all the smoke started coming towards us, right.

And it's just like this big thing.

Yeah, everything's everything's changed right now. Our winds out of Southwest 10 to 23 miles an hour. So we actually have a pollution advisory in Phoenix. Thanks to the although smoke head in our direction.

Sorry about that. Oh, hey, you know, you know, there there are worse things that could happen and I would have rather like 1800 homes. It is. Oh, yeah, it's just just incredible rather. Oh.

Yeah, oh yeah big time. Let me preface my comment by saying that I could not Agree with you more. Why on earth we still hang to that. I can't figure it out. It's one of the most infuriating. No, I was just wanting to comment upon how thrilled I am that you're going to be on the Bible answer man talking about the subject of the doctrines of grace.

I Could not be more ecstatic. Course of the discussion and divine rate. You have to ask him about Robert Shank's position. That Hank usually takes with regards. I think he's done. Mm-hmm. Well, shank did not.

Not Hank. Well, I just. I always find it interesting that when people call up and ask about election. He'll kind of well, there's a Calvinistic view and then there's the Armenian view. Shank is just sort of well, I honestly think.

That the primary the primary context in which to place those comments is. You know it certainly shank and others have their their place in the formulation of these things. But I honestly think that the the primary context to look for is in anti Calvinistic Lutheranism.

That is there is there is monergistic Lutheranism that would be more Lutheran in the sense of Luther and the bondage of the will but then there is a very Strongly anti Calvinistic form of Lutheranism.

I mean, it's always it's been there ever since the the great fights that broke out between the reform the Lutherans well, even during the days of Calvin, but but especially in the generations thereafter and I think that's where you can look to to get a lot of of the impetus here as far as the the assertions in regards to Calvinism that that have become normative within that context most of the.

I just know that primary questions. I'm always asked about I guess refuse. Sort of this idea that you're in there this sort of I don't know a way I kind of perceive it. Maybe you can help me articulate a little better is he takes this one and.

Somehow you would join yourself to that. He kind of articulate.

The irony here and a lot of folks listening will be aware of this. The irony here is that the most recent place where I heard that preached in almost those exact words Was at the Auburn Avenue Presbyterian Conference in 2002.

Yes. It is. And you go to the passage in Peter about Christ the elect cornerstone. You know, I think that's a real stretch in regards to the the use of the term there we even had somebody in our chat channel using that terminology just Just last night.

Well, well Jesus the like that doesn't know him to do a salvation well, the the context the passage is is completely irrelevant to that issue as well, but The the idea being of course that what's being presented is that If Christ is the elect one and we are in him then that's how we are elect and that sort of shifts the emphasis off of The idea of divine election to the idea of well, how do we get in him?

Will we get in him by this process over here? And it's that's we can make room for libertarian free will and all the rest that stuff and again it involves Conflating two completely different contexts that which is being used to describe Christ in Peter with the pastors like Ephesians chapter 1 and the problem is the definition of election given Ephesians Chapter 1 is intimately connected with personal salvation itself.

There's no there's there's no reason to to argue about the fact that God has elected a people because that's true. I mean, I mean we we do need to avoid being What I might call hyper personalistic in the sense of importing American concepts of It's just me and the Lord off in the off in the wilderness at the same time.

We don't go so far the other direction that you lose the personal aspect of salvation and the personal union between Each of the individuals who are part of the elect with their Savior. There's you have to maintain both of them or you get into get into trouble.

What they're trying to do is that in essence get you know separate those two out so that the Individual can have this libertarian free will as to how he participates in this and there's just no basis of doing that in Ephesians chapter 1.

I mean right in the context right in that particular phraseology. You have the assertion that we have been chosen in him. And the contexts are of adoption and forgiveness and redemption and when you start talking about forgiveness of sins.

This is not something that is merely done in a a corporate elect way in which you just sort of wipe out Everybody's sins in a group or something like that. Sins are committed individually and the forgiveness and adoption.

I mean Paul gets really personal about the nature of adoption In Romans chapter 8 so to think that he would use that terminology and just a a really, you know class Concept that has no personal application.

It just it just turns the text on its head and and over and over again. That's what I see going on in this situation is because of these external traditional frequently philosophically expressed Objections to the doctrines of grace.

What you end up doing is you end up? Really Flattening out the text and and forcing into it meanings that You could never demonstrate a drive from the text itself is from this overarching system of theology.

And I just saw a comment made in channel. I suppose I should clarify something. I'm I'm talking about shank at this point. I'm not talking about the application that was made by I believe it was John Barrett's at the Auburn Avenue Presbyterian Church Conference.

Obviously these men consider themselves to be Calvinist and reformed and so they would take a little bit of a different view though I've said on the dividing line before. If Ephesians 1 and all these are the passages are talking only about corporate election.

Then where do you go to find the individual element? Where do you go to find the foundation of the five points for example, and that's that's an issue that I've raised raised before. But anyhow, hopefully that was somewhat of.

Okay, I just appreciate you kind of outlining. How are you going to tackle it by just Making everyone state of the Bible, you know and rather than kind of veering off into these traditions and well It's gonna philosophical notions and such.

There's no question. It's going to be difficult in the sense of like I said, you never know What's underneath one of those blinking lights and unfortunately? There are going to be questions asked by those blinking lights.

That's Are are not even really remotely Central to the to the real topic and you have to then somehow You have to hope for cooperation on the part of everybody to bring it back to the central issues. But generally, especially if it's going to go three hours You have the first hour for discussion amongst the guests before you get to the calls anyways.

And if that's the case then obviously as best as I can in the what do you have? Maybe at the most 50 minutes 45 to 50 minutes per hour of actual talk time. You're only you're really only talking about 20 some-odd minutes 20 -25 minutes.

At best where you get to talk so I'm gonna have to be very clear very succinct very direct. But it has to stay in the text of Scripture or it's it's going to be Really a waste of everybody's time and is going to lead to more confusion than than enlightenment.

So I'll do my best pray for me. Oh, yeah, we will and you know, just keep that. All right, man.

Thanks a lot for calling in. All right, stay safe over there. Bye. Bye. All right. Bye. Bye. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. Let's go ahead and take our break and then we'll be back with Brett in North Carolina and David in Albuquerque as well.

And your calls at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

Such a rare. Today many stars Strong and true and quickly fall away.

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Mary another Redeemer at a omen org. This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God.

The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church. The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day.

The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45. Evening services are at 6 30 p .m. On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix.

You can call for further information at 602 -26 grace. If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org. Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

It's a journey. It's pilgrims progress that's Abandoned to God. Steve camp. That's a great poll question at His website. I think it's just Steve camp org if I recall correctly or calm one of the two. Anyway, he's got a great he's got a great poll question about the purpose-driven life of the purpose driven church, I think it's purpose driven life and It one of the one of the the bottom choice that you can make is No, I'm not going to read it because it's a how do you put it?

Novelette for Christianettes or something like that. I forget what it was. It was funny, but you might want to take a look at that. That's that's Steve camp. Hey before we go to Brett. I Many many years ago and and some of you are really not old enough to remember this.

But many many years ago people possessed things called record players and before CDs and I know some of you have never understood that music could exist to be recorded on anything but a CD. But before there were CDs there were these things called record players and they were not just for going With either in fact, that was not a good thing to do.

That would generally destroy your record. These were vinyl discs very large vinyl discs very subject to melting especially in Arizona and So you would actually turn it on and it would spin and you'd you'd actually put this thing with a needle on it and You could you could listen to music this way and I have a whole shelf of what are called LPs is from long play LPs down in my office here from back when I was I was a kid and I I got a record player this week from my parents and I hooked it all up to my system and I'm mp3 and all this stuff got all these mp3s on my system now, and I thought some of you might find interesting to hear a song.

This is one of the first songs. I Purchased this record. That's how you bought things back then it bring Christian bookstore back when I was in high school like a sophomore in high school sophomore junior in high school and this might help explain how I ended up in apologetics see and Now this this isn't exactly, you know, the kind of apologetics we necessarily do but you know It actually sort of fits.

So let's see if any of you have ever heard this one before Man. It's sort of funny to watch all the whining in the channel all these people who talk about listening this grunge music. Oh, this is terrible.

Good stuff. Buddha that was the Imperials. Yes, I was back when rust half was still with the Imperials, isn't he? I thought I saw him on TV. He's with the Gaither vocal band now, isn't he? He's one of the four dudes with the Gaither vocal band now at least that's what I saw on TV anyways.

But that was a long it was like what 79 and he was about 1979 1980 somewhere around there. Yep, that's what I was listening to. That and and all sorts of other fun stuff. But anyhow, I guess that's what started the apologetic stuff really politically incorrect, wasn't it?

But sort of predictive. Well, let's go ahead and Let's take our our poor foreign callers if they're still with us. They may have hung up during that. I don't know. Let's talk to Brett in Raleigh, North Carolina and Brett.

You cannot complain about the music. Okay now listen to that.

I've got my Steve camp CD here thinking if he would listen to that. That's going to be a cover of the new album. Oh, yeah.

Well, believe me Steve was around back then and I'm sure he could probably sing it himself. So.

Well, um class at NC State University. Okay, and uh, there was a girl in my class her and her husband just transferred from BYU and um, I really felt into apology and apologetics ministry, so I just I knew that and.

So I got a chance to talk to her. I have a Tuesday Thursday class and I shared with her on Tuesday some of the things who God is and what salvation is and I gave her some passages to think about. We were going to talk again on Thursday.

And Before the class I was just in a dining hall. And I just just praying through it and reading through it and um, so I was walking to my class and Huh and we don't get a lot of those around. NC State.

NC State and I shared with both of hey How you doing and ask if I could meet. I'll meet up with him and talk with them. They said sure and they got my name and wrote my stuff down. But here's the question I have.

They called me back and and they were you know eager to meet up with me, but they said they wanted to meet. At an LDS building. That's that's probably the LDS seminary. Yeah. I'm just curious Do they do they keep people's information?