November 14, 2016 Show with Christina Fox on “A Heart Set Free: A Journey to Hope Through the Songs of Lament” PLUS Joe Thorn on “The Character of the Church”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnton. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming.

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This is Chris Arnton, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 14th day of November 2016.

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I'm delighted to have for the first hour, for the very first time as a guest on the program,

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Christina Fox. She's going to be talking about her book, A Heart Set Free, A Journey to Hope Through the

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Psalms of Lament. And the second hour, we have returning as a guest on this program,

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Joe Thorne, lead pastor of Redeemer Fellowship in St. Charles, Illinois, and he is going to be talking about the character of the church.

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Before I begin the program, I just want to give a report on the wonderful time that I had over the weekend in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania.

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I was at the conference sponsored by the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals there in Quaker Town and Joel Beeky was one of the speakers who's been a guest on this program many times.

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Anthony Carter, who has been a guest here as well and I'm looking forward to having him back.

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It was nice to see him, actually meet him for the first time ever. I interviewed him on the phone, so I had never met him before, but it was a great time sharing fellowship with him.

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And also Tony Medina, who I hope to have on the program.

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I'm sorry, it's Marita, Tony Marita, who I hope to have on the program as well very soon.

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And it was just a great time of fellowship with the saints there and I'm looking forward to even having the pastor of Grace Bible Fellowship Church there in Quaker Town on the program soon.

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He was the actual host of the program of the conference and it was just a really joyful experience, a really edifying experience and it left me invigorated and refreshed and I just thank

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God for being there. And I'll give you updates on where you can get the recordings of those messages.

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I also want to thank my friends over at Lindbrook Baptist Church on Long Island, New York, who actually funded my trip there to attend that conference.

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So thank you very much for that and I will never be able to thank my dear brethren at Lindbrook Baptist enough for the graciousness and generosity they've extended towards me.

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Christina Fox, who I said is our first guest, is a blogger at ChristinaFox .com

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where she chronicles her faith journey. She writes for a number of Christian ministries and publications including

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Desiring God and the Gospel Coalition. Today we are going to be discussing her book,

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A Heart Set Free, A Journey to Hope Through the Psalms of Lament. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron, Christina Fox.

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Thank you. I'm excited to be speaking with you today. Well, before I even go into this book of yours, as I very often do with my guests,

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I'd like to know something about your own personal journey of faith to embrace

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Christ as your Lord and Savior. What kind of religious upbringing did you have, if any, and what were the events that the

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Lord used sovereignly to lead you to himself? Well, I grew up in the church.

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So, you know, if you had met me as a young child, I would have told you I believe in God, I know

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God. But it wasn't until I was in middle school when I had a

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Sunday school teacher really pour into my life. We were attending a smaller church at the time, and I was the only student in her class.

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And she just mentored and discipled me. And through that relationship,

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I really came to see that I needed to embrace faith for myself, that, you know,

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I couldn't just come alongside my family and be attached to it that way, that it was an individual relationship apart from my family.

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And so, through that relationship, I guess, looking back,

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I would say that's when I really came to have a personal faith was in middle school.

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And from then on, I just had this increasing hunger to know more and more of God's Word. And the

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Lord used her to answer all the questions I had. Every Sunday morning, I came with whatever question

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I had about the Bible, and she answered it or helped me figure it out. And so,

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I guess that's my answer. Well, God is certainly a gracious God.

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And the fact that he preserves the children of believers is just as much of a miracle as when he rescues those from out of much darker areas of the world and life.

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And he is an awesome and mighty God. And when was it that you realized that you had a gift for writing?

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And eventually, what led you to write this book, The Heart Set Free? I always enjoyed writing as a kid.

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You know, I wrote little stories and illustrated them. I worked at the school newspaper and those kind of things.

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I wrote little pieces for my church's newsletter as a kid. But I didn't end up studying that in college, so I kind of didn't write for a while unless it was papers for school.

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But it wasn't until I was a new mom when I kind of found writing again as a way to process all of the challenges of being a mom.

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And that's kind of when my passion for writing kind of ignited and I started blogging and that kind of thing.

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Well, this book that we are discussing today, A Heart Set Free, a journey to hope through the

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Psalms of Lament, if you could tell us about the origins of this book. Well, there's,

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I guess, a few different factors involved in me writing it. My background is in counseling. I have a license as a counselor, and so lament and emotions and those kind of things are my stock in trade, if you want to call it.

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But also, you know, I have emotions and I have had a lot of seasons of lament in my life.

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And the Psalms were always just an anchor for me, a place where I turned to just find, you know, just a common understanding of what

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I was experiencing. You know, the Psalmist seemed to describe exactly what my own emotions were.

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And so, in my own study of the Psalms for my own benefit, you know,

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I came to learn that there was this pattern, structure, just some commonalities among the lament that we could follow ourselves in learning how to lament to God.

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Perhaps if you could, there are a lot of folks who are listening to Iron Sharpens Iron, I am discovering, who are new believers.

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They are really just starting to explore their Bibles and discover what the

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Bible has to say about all facets of life. If you could, perhaps especially for them, give a definition for what the

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Psalms of lament are. Well, in the Psalms, if you just start reading through them, you'll notice just different ones.

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There's some that are just all about Thanksgiving, you know, thank you God for this, thank you God that you've done this.

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Ones that are very praiseworthy of God and his character. Other ones about, you know,

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God's justice among, you know, the Israelites and their enemies. And there's also ones that are, well, have been classified laments, and those specific psalms are ones where the writer pours out his emotions to God and just lays them before the throne and says, you know, my life is terrible, describes exactly what's happening to him, and really pleads and asks

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God to help, you know, save me, rescue me, deliver me, you know, make the situation change that I'm in, help me.

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So those are the specific psalms. They're not grouped together in the book nice and neatly.

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They're kind of scattered throughout, but they have a common structure and theme.

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And the book of Psalms is actually a song book, is it not? Yes. And I think that's the most remarkable thing, is that all of those 150 psalms were sung in worship, just like we sing our hymns and praise songs, but they weren't all happy ones.

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Many of them were quite, you know, fear -filled or despair -filled, and they sung them to God, and I just find that just affirming of the fact that, you know, we can do the same thing.

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Yes. The church should not be all about happiness when we are worshiping, and some people who have visited

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Reformed churches will leave there complaining that the songs at times seem too gloomy or sad, but that should be, if we are looking at the

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Bible as a blueprint, lament should be an aspect of our songs of worship and our prayers and praise to God.

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Yes. It acknowledges that we live in a fallen world and that life is not the way it should be.

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Amen. Well, I'm going to give our listeners our email address. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Christina Fox, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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chrisarnson at gmail .com. Well, why don't we start in your book where you deal with emotions and how we handle them.

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Hello, Christina? Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, if you could just comment a bit on our emotions and how we handle them and why this is a part of your book, the aspects of this.

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Well, um, I would say, you know, a hundred years ago, um, emotions were not something we talked much about.

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Um, probably even in my grandparents, uh, generation, um, just being able to say,

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I'm, I'm scared or I'm not, you know, I'm just really down lately.

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They would not have said that or maybe known how to. Um, and I think we've improved a lot since that time.

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Um, but, um, I wouldn't say that we necessarily know what to do with them so we can identify them and say,

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I'm worried or I'm afraid, but we don't necessarily know what to do with them.

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And so that's kind of what I talked about in the beginning of the book is kind of our natural reactionary ways of dealing with, um, fearful things that come up or sorrowful things.

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Um, you know, we, it depends, of course, on our personality and how we handle things, but some of us, you know, try to pretend that we're doing okay, or just ignore our emotions or hide from them, cover them up.

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Um, maybe try to cover them up with other things like busyness or, um, even, you know, idolatry, um, all those kinds of things.

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Um, sort of our go -to natural responses. Um, and so I do cover that in the beginning.

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Yeah. And it's, uh, it's very awkward when, uh, you're greeting people at church and, uh, they very typically will ask you in somewhat of a robotic or rehearsed way, hey, how are you?

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And most people just say, great. And even though that may not intentionally be a lie they're saying, but they're just responding instinctively the way they think that they should respond.

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And you also, at times, you just don't want to depress people. You don't want to drive them away by complaining or what have you.

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Uh, I have, uh, adopted, uh, a response that I, uh, found out subsequently was also something that a, uh, a well -known

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Christian financial advisor says. But, uh, unbeknownst to me, when

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I started saying, uh, what I typically say to people when they say, how are you? I say, uh, well, better than I deserve.

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Oh, that's a good one. And, uh, cause we certainly are better than we deserve, uh, uh, no matter what lot in life we have.

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Um, but, um, the, uh, you're talking about some pretty heart wrenching circumstances in the

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Psalms that the Psalmists, including David, who most people are familiar with in some fashion, even if they're not

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Christians or Jews, they've heard some of the story of David. But, uh,

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David has had gone through some pretty horrific, uh, tragedies in his life.

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Uh, and, uh, when we see things like this, when we read the Psalms, these outpourings of, uh, of, of sinners who have been rescued by God's grace or who are crying out for rescue.

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Uh, it really, uh, makes us realize that we're not alone. Uh, we, in whatever struggle that we may have, there are others that have gone before us who have, uh, had a more significant perhaps place within the kingdom of redemptive history than, than we do.

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Uh, but, um, nonetheless, they've experienced these things and, uh, this, this is, should be an encouragement and a comfort to us, shouldn't it?

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Shouldn't it? Yes. Yes, definitely. Um, yeah, David, uh, and the other

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Psalmists really, um, show us that we all, all of us, no matter how long we've been in the faith, um, deal with the hard emotions of life.

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Um, they don't like go away once you, um, come to faith. Um, they're something that's part of life and, um, it is, does give me great hope to know that I'm not alone.

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We do have a listener in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York, Tyler, who asks, is a good example of lamenting in the

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New Testament, Jesus's woes over Jerusalem? Yes, I, I think

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I may have referenced that in the book as an example, um, of Jesus lamenting over, um, when he said that he longed to, would embrace them like a, um, mother hen.

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Yeah, um, that is, and then of course his time in the garden, um, before he was arrested.

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And, uh, Tyler, we thank you for your question and you are getting compliments of Christian Folkless Publications.

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You're getting a free copy of A Heart Set Free, A Journey to Hope Through the Psalms of Lament by our guest,

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Christina Fox. We also have a listener in Slovenia, Joe, who says, please ask

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Christina what she suggests we do with the Psalms of Lament in those places where the

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Psalmist is asking God to bring destructive judgment on those who are afflicting him in light of Jesus's instruction for us to love, forgive, do good, uh, for bless and pray for our enemies.

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Thank you very much for your contribution to our edification. Yeah, there are people who actually use some things that are apparent on the surface, contradictions to go, uh, even into a heretical understanding of God, where they would say that the

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God of the Old Testament is all about wrath, anger, and destruction, and vengeance, and retribution, and the

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God of the New Testament is all about peace, love, mercy, and they try to make, make it almost like a bad cop, good cop situation with God, but, but this is not the case.

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But if you could, uh, if you could address Joe from Slovenia's question about where we see a seeming, uh, of an apparent, uh, difference in the way some of the

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Psalmists are praying for God to bring destructive judgment on those who are afflicting them in light of Jesus's instruction for us to love, forgive, and do good.

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Well, um, ultimately the Psalms, as all the scripture does, points to Christ, and Christ is the fulfillment of all the cries of our heart, including the cries of the

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Psalmist, and, um, he came to answer that cry for justice, and, um, in himself, he came to, um, fulfill that, and I think ultimately we'll see that fruition come at the last day, but in the meantime, um, otherwise, you know,

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I, I think it's a matter of looking at the Psalms from the big picture of redemptive history.

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Well, uh, thank you Joe in Slovenia, and you are also getting a free copy of Christina Fox's book,

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A Heart Set Free, A Journey to Hope Through the Psalms of Lament.

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Uh, I have heard even pastors say that, uh, in light of what

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Joe is asking, that there, that it is not, uh, always a wrong thing as long as you are praying with a, uh, a heart of humility and a heart, uh, where you are not, um, uh, praying with a vengeful spirit or anything like that, but, but there can be a, an appropriate way to pray for God to either save those who are tormenting you in some very serious way, or perhaps if this is a serious enough issue, that he remove them from the earth.

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Uh, I have heard pastors that I respect pray, uh, in, in certain circumstances like that.

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Do you agree with that, that there, there is, that is not, uh, without precedent for a

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Christian, uh, to pray at times that either God save a certain individual or people or remove them from the earth?

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Wow, that's a good question. Um, you know,

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I don't think I've studied enough to be able to answer that, um, thoroughly. Um, I mean,

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I do know in the book Revelation, it talks about the martyrs crying out and asking when their justice will come for them.

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So, I mean, I guess in some sense, um, so in the

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New Testament, you do see, you do see that. Yeah, if you have somebody who is, like, for instance, for some reason, escaping the justice of the legal authorities over and over again, and he is putting your, your life and perhaps the life and well -being of your children at constant risk, you know, some kind of a person who is just a real deviate, uh, perverted individual, uh,

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I, I, I personally don't see anything that would conflict with the scripture, especially because of some of these

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Psalms that Joe has mentioned, to pray, of course, first and foremost, that God would rescue them, even these individuals, these wicked individuals from their wickedness, save their souls, redeem and transform them and use them mightily, just as he did with Saul of Tarsus and many other individuals throughout history.

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But if not, if, Lord, if you would please remove them from this earth to spare my children of this, uh, catastrophe that, that is on the brink of occurring or what have you, could be all kinds of reasons that these things occur.

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But, uh, well, thanks again, Joe, and I urge you to please continue spreading the word about Iron Sharpens Iron in Slovenia.

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And, uh, if anybody else would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsonatgmail .com

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chrisarnsonatgmail .com. And please give us at least your first name, city and state and country of residence.

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If you live outside of the USA, uh, we have an anonymous listener in Pennsylvania, uh, who says that I have experienced horrible tragedies in my life that would very closely resemble those that occurred in the life of Job that have brought me to the brink of despair.

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At times I wonder if God is displeased or angry with me.

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I searched my heart to see what sins I may be committing that have displeased him.

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Uh, can someone who is fully obedient, of course, not in a perfect sense because we never will on this earth, but somebody who is trusting and obeying

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God as much as they can, uh, and believe that they are being faithful, albeit in an imperfect way, can such a person still be going through such horrible occurrences in this life while still being pleasing in the sight of God?

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Yes. I mean, uh, Job is a good example, of course, of, um, him, uh, we know he was pleasing to God, um, and he never, of course, knew why all the suffering happened to him.

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Um, and then we know also that, uh, the disciples asked a similar question about, uh, the man born blind and Jesus said, well, this happened, you know, for the glory of God, not for any other situation, um, because I think that was a common thought back in the times of old and even

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New Testament of, you know, what happened in your life was a direct result of the things that you've done, um, with us.

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And, of course, that those kinds of things do happen. If we do something wrong, there's a lot, often a consequence, but also, um,

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God allows suffering in our life for his redemptive purposes, our own, as well as, as others.

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Yeah, it is a, it is a horrible shame that there are, uh, heretical churches and ministries and organizations that will teach people that if their faith is strong enough, they will live out this life, uh, happy and, and healthy and wealthy at all times.

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And if there is ever something that is catastrophic occurring in any of those categories in your life, it's always because of your lack of faith.

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But this is just a lie from the pit of hell, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. There's no better way to put that.

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Yeah. And in fact, uh, I, I believe all of Christ's disciples, uh, in the scriptures who wrote, uh, any part of the scriptures of the

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New Testament, uh, were executed with the exception of John, who is in exile on the

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Isle of Patmos. Yes. Yes. So following Christ does not, um, ensure, um, a suffering free life.

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And of course, Christ himself, uh, uh, who paid the price of our redemption on Calvary, uh, experienced the most horrific, uh, torment, tormented death of, of, of all of humanity.

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Um, but, uh, I want to tell our, our anonymous listener that if you give me your full name and full address,

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I promise I will not reveal that over the air and I will mail you a free copy of A Heart Set Free, A Journey to Hope Through the

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Psalms of Lament by Christina Fox. And this is compliments of Christian focused publications.

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And it will be mailed to you by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

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cvbbs .com. And Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service sends out all of our, our winners in the, in our audience, their free

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Bibles, books, CDs, DVDs, or whatever else they're winning. Uh, so we thank, uh,

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Todd and Patty Jennings over at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service for being faithful supporters of Iron Sharpens Iron.

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So if you, uh, if you would reveal to us or me, I should say, email me your full name and mailing address.

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I promise I will keep your identity concealed and I will have this book mailed out to you as soon as possible.

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And we're going through our first station break. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Christina Fox regarding A Journey to Hope Through the

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Psalms of Lament, our email address is chrisarnsonatgmail .com chrisarnsonatgmail .com.

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And, uh, please, uh, give us at least your first name, your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. But of course, if you would like to remain anonymous, especially if this is in regard to some personal and private matters, uh, you may remain anonymous just as our last, uh, audience member did.

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And, uh, we look forward to hearing from you after these words from our sponsors.

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So don't go away. We will be right back after these messages with Christina Fox.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in for the first hour, our guest is Christina Fox.

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She is author of A Heart Set Free, A Journey to Hope Through the Psalms of Lament.

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And for the second hour, we have Joe Thorn on talking about the character of the church.

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So we hope you stay tuned for that as well. We have another question from a listener in Indianapolis, Indiana.

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Aaron writes, Would Christina help us define the line when it is legitimate to lament to the

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Lord and when we cross the line into sinning by fostering self -pity?

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That's a good question. I think, you know, one example of sort of crossing the line would be the

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Israelites wandering in the desert and how they complained and grumbled.

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I think that would be an example of that instead of the way the psalmist did in saying, you know, whatever his particular issue was or problem at the time, describing it, and then he cried out for help.

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And he reflected on who God is and what he has done for him, and he kind of dwelled on God's character.

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You know, that would be more of the proper response. And that's really part of looking at the

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Psalms of Lament is looking at those particular characteristics of the laments.

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It's not just, you know, identifying your emotions and telling God, I'm upset.

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There's more to it, and that's what I unpack in the book is looking at those things that the psalmist does when he calls

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God his refuge and his rock and his deliverer. He's turning to God as the only source of rescue and salvation.

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So his heart, though it's, you know, broken, and though he's afraid, though he's in despair, though sometimes he even wonders where is

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God and why hasn't he heard my cry, he's still turning to God. He's still seeking him as the only one who can help him.

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Yeah, in fact, one of the most classic examples of a psalm that features something that you just said is the psalm of David, Psalm 22, which some of which is repeated by our

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Lord Jesus Christ on Calvary when he is dying and receiving upon himself the wrath of our

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Father for our sins. And he says,

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David says, which is later repeated by Christ, my

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God, my God, why have you forsaken me? And then David goes on, far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.

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Oh my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer, and by night, but I have no rest.

38:39

Yet you are holy. Oh, you are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.

38:45

In you our fathers trusted, they trusted and you delivered them. To you they cried out and were delivered.

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In you they trusted and were not disappointed. But I am a worm and not a man, a reproach of men and despised by the people.

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All who see me sneer at me. They separate with the lip.

39:08

They wag the head and saying, commit yourself to the Lord. Let him deliver him.

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Let him rescue him because he delights in him. Yet you are he who brought me forth from the womb.

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You made me trust when upon my mother's breasts, upon you

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I was cast from birth. You have been my God from my mother's womb.

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Be not far from me for trouble is near, for there is none to help. Many bulls have surrounded me.

39:40

Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me. They open wide their mouths at me as a ravening and roaring lion.

39:47

I am poured out like water and all my bones are out of joint. My heart is like wax.

39:54

It is melted within me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd and my tongue cleaves to my jaws and you lay me in the dust of death.

40:05

For dogs have surrounded me. A band of evildoers have encompassed me. They pierce my hands and my feet.

40:13

I count all my bones. They look. They stare at me. They divide my garments among them and for my clothing they cast lots.

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But you, O Lord, be not far off. O you, my help, hasten to my assistance.

40:29

Deliver my soul from the sword, my only life from the power of the dog.

40:36

Save me from the lion's mouth, from the horns of the wild oxen. You answer me.

40:41

I tell of your name to my brethren. In the midst of the assembly

40:47

I will praise you. You who fear the Lord, praise him. All you descendants of Jacob, glorify him and stand in awe of him.

40:55

All you descendants of Israel, for he has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, nor has he hidden his face from him, but when he cried to him for help he heard.

41:08

From you comes my praise in the great assembly. I shall pay my vows before those who fear him.

41:14

The afflicted will eat and be satisfied. Those who seek him will praise the Lord. Let your heart live forever and all the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the

41:24

Lord and all the nations will worship before you. For the kingdom is the

41:31

Lord's and he rules over the nations. All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship.

41:38

All those who go down to the dust will bow before him, even those who cannot keep his soul alive.

41:44

Posterity will serve him. It will be told of the Lord to the coming generation. They will come and will declare his righteousness to a people who will be born that he has performed it."

41:57

So that is a powerful example of somebody which obviously has a lot of prophetic wording in it that our

42:05

Lord and Savior had gone through. But it doesn't end with somebody merely just complaining.

42:15

I mean, it is filled with praise and adoration to our God. So I think in one sense when we think of Aaron and Indianapolis's question, when we are crying out to God, these kind of Psalms kind of give us a remembrance to pause in the midst of our complaint to God and our groaning and our crying out for to praise him and adore him and magnify him and glorify him.

42:48

Am I right? Yes, I think that is an important aspect of the lament is that the psalmist is reminding himself of the truth even while he is pouring out his heart.

43:03

He is remembering who God is, what he has done, his character, his faithfulness, his steadfastness, his sovereignty over all things.

43:17

He is just preaching to himself the truth as he cries and weeps.

43:25

And we have Bebe in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. Oh, by the way,

43:31

Aaron, you are also getting a free copy of A Heart Set Free, A Journey to Hope Through the Psalms of Lament by Christina Fox.

43:38

So thank you very much, Aaron, in Indianapolis, Indiana. Bebe in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania wants to know, can you mention a few psalms that have been of specific, unique importance to you when going through times of despair?

43:55

Wow, really all of them at different times.

44:02

When my kids were young, I was often filled with a lot of fear and anxiousness.

44:08

And the ones where David particularly speaks about those emotions really

44:15

I identified with. And then like times when

44:23

I was in despair, I related to those. So it just varied. But you know,

44:30

I really appreciated Psalm 142, when he says, with my voice,

44:38

I cry out to the Lord, with my voice, I plead for mercy. I pour out my complaint before him,

44:43

I tell my trouble. When my spirit faints within me, you know my way.

44:50

Just gives me great hope knowing that, I mean, even before I am crying out, he already knows.

44:57

And he knows what's happening right now, he knows what's going to happen, and all in his sovereign care.

45:07

And I also appreciate, oddly enough, Psalm 88, which is a lament, but it's a bit different than the rest of them, because it ends in a positive note, where most of them do end in a positive note.

45:26

It ends with darkness is my only friend. There was a season in my life where that one meant a lot to me, because you know, that's kind of where I was at.

45:38

I really didn't see much light at the end of the tunnel. And it just gave me peace knowing that I could say,

45:50

God, things are just really, really horrible, and I can't imagine them getting better.

45:56

And knowing that, even though I didn't have any joy kind of bubbling up at that time, that God heard that, and that he redeemed that prayer, and you know, that Christ was interceding for me, even when

46:14

I couldn't respond with joy, that Christ was taking my prayers and changing them and redeeming them for God's glory.

46:24

And so yeah, I would mention that one as well.

46:30

Well, Bibi, you are also receiving a free copy of A Heart Set Free, A Journey to Hope through the

46:37

Psalms of Lament. And we have another anonymous listener, and it is okay to be anonymous.

46:44

If some of the psalmists were anonymous, I guess we can allow you to be anonymous. But we have an anonymous listener who says,

46:52

I agree with you that when we go through suffering on this earth, it is not always because of wicked deeds that we have committed.

47:02

But wouldn't you have to say that at times this is certainly the case, as it was with David, whose baby from Bathsheba died as a result of chastisement from his wickedness by having an adulterous relationship with Bathsheba and also having her husband

47:22

Uriah murdered on the battlefield? Yes, I mean,

47:28

Hebrews makes it clear that the Lord disciplines the one he loves.

47:34

And so those of us who are called as children, we can expect some sort of consequence if we have sinned.

47:43

And the consequence will be for our transformation in holiness.

47:50

So there are times when we might experience a difficult time because it's a direct result of some sin that we've committed.

48:01

And it's an opportunity for us to lament over the sin the way that David did when he prayed, saying, you know, against you, you only have

48:12

I sinned. And he confessed and repented and prayed out to God, and we can do the same thing.

48:21

Yes. And when we are going through some kind of dark, really deeply painful trial, wouldn't you agree that we should be asking

48:35

God if we are blind to something that we are unrepentant of, to reveal it to us?

48:45

Lord, you know, please show me what I have done that might incur your chastisement in this harsh manner and so on.

48:55

Because obviously, we are all sinners, we sin every day. And there may be times when we are just totally overlooking something in our life, or we are just burying it intentionally, trying to hide from the fact that this is something that we love doing but is displeasing to God.

49:16

I have a chapter on confession in the book, because sometimes those painful emotions we experience are kind of the spirit prompting us that there is something we need to confess.

49:32

And like David, we need to admit that in our own prayers to God.

49:41

I think sometimes, too, we may be in a trial that was caused by someone else, you know, someone sinned against us, and that caused us pain, but then sometimes our responses to what happened to us can be sinful.

49:57

Yes. And then that kind of, you know, those situations become kind of blurred, like a mixture of someone sinning against us, us sinning in our response, and so it can be hard to separate them and find them.

50:15

But I think that God, you know, does the work to help us see what part is ours and what part of someone else's.

50:24

Yeah, in fact, I'm reminded again of Aaron in Indianapolis, Indiana's question about when we cross the line from offering our grievances up to God and when we wind up being involved in self -pity.

50:44

I know firsthand with my own life, especially when my past sin of alcohol addiction that God thankfully delivered me from,

50:57

I can recall that feeling sorry for myself gave me, in my own mind, a seal of approval.

51:08

The fact that I was going through some kind of a trial gave me a seal of approval to sin, in my mind, of course.

51:17

I didn't really have a seal of approval to sin, but it might have been wrong for other people to get inebriated and to dull their senses.

51:29

It might be wrong for them, but I'm the one going through some problems here, so I need to imbibe to excess in order to kill the pain, and that's a dangerous place to be.

51:42

People confine themselves in, even Christians, when there are circumstances in life that may be causing them sorrow, grief, and pain.

51:52

They'll use that as an excuse to sin because they think that they deserve it. They deserve to get away with that sin.

52:00

They deserve to indulge themselves and so on, and they think that God will somehow wink an eye at it because of what we're going through, but we can wind up committing some even more severe sins and wind up hurting others as well as a result.

52:21

That's true. And by the way, to you who also have chosen to remain anonymous, if you would please send us your, or send me,

52:32

I should say, your name and address, you have won our final book, our final copy of A Heart Set Free, A Journey to Hope Through the

52:43

Psalms of Lament by Christina Fox, and I promise I will not reveal your identity on the air.

52:50

If you would like to get this free copy, just send me an email with your full name and address, and you will get that,

52:56

God willing, within a week or so from Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

53:02

cvbbs .com. I'd like you now, Christina, to have five minutes or so just to give your own summary of what you most want to be etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today, especially in regard to this book that you've written,

53:21

A Heart Set Free, A Journey to Hope Through the Psalms of Lament. Well, it's called

53:27

A Journey because that's what it is. When we read a particular psalm, it may seem that it's wrapped up nice and neat, and the psalmist starts out very upset and in despair, and by the end he's praising

53:43

God, and he's confident God is going to move in his life and save him or rescue him.

53:51

We don't see the process he went through to get to that point, but it took much longer than it did for us to read it for him to get there, and the same is true for us, that walking through our emotions is a journey, and it takes a long time, and it's one that we go through throughout our whole lives, but the psalms give us a pattern, and I think that as we learn that pattern and follow it in each and every time that we feel overwhelmed by the cares of this life, that we'll be drawn closer to God and closer in trusting him to be there and know that he's sovereign over all things, and that's kind of the main point of the book, is to really follow the structure.

54:50

There are a number of characteristics of the laments, but I kind of sum them up into three of crying out to God, asking for help, and then trusting and responding and trust and praise, and just going through that process of doing what the psalmist did.

55:17

We kind of remember who God is and what he's done, and though our situation may not have changed and we still might be in that pit of despair, we remember

55:29

God and his faithfulness and that he's there, and as the psalmist wrote, joy will come in the morning.

55:39

Amen. We do have one more anonymous listener who says,

55:45

I understand that Christina is a counselor. Do you have any websites or contact information in regard to finding counseling?

55:56

Well, that's hard because there's so many different... I mean, I don't know where everyone's coming from, but the

56:04

CCEF is a good organization. Go through their website and see if there's any local counselors that they recommend.

56:13

Every area is different. And of course, you could go to ChristinaFox .com and you can communicate with Christina personally in regard to...

56:24

she might be able to fine -tune that answer depending upon where you live.

56:31

And CCEF, Christian Counseling and Educational Foundation in Glenside, Pennsylvania, their website is ccef .org,

56:42

ccef .org, if you'd like to look up that. And of course,

56:48

I want to repeat Christina's website, ChristinaFox .com, ChristinaFox .com,

56:55

and there's no e at the end of Fox, just in case you're wondering. And Christian Focus Publications, who provided the free copies of Christina's books today that we gave away, their website is christianfocus .com,

57:11

christianfocus .com. And Christina, it's been a pleasure having you on the program today, and I hope that you can return to Iron Sharpens Iron at some point in the near future, and we can discuss perhaps another book you've written.

57:27

Thank you, Chris. I appreciate it. I enjoyed it. Great. Well, God bless you, sister, and let's keep in touch.

57:33

Thank you. Alrighty, and I hope that you who are listening don't go away, because we have coming up any moment now our second guest,

57:43

Joe Thorne, who is pastor of Redeemer Fellowship in St.

57:48

Charles, Illinois, and he's the author of a number of books, host of the

57:54

Doctrine and Devotion podcast. We're going to be discussing the character of the church coming up at the top of the second hour of the broadcast, and so we hope we hear from you soon, and our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

58:12

chrisarnson at gmail .com is the email address, and please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old

58:24

USA, and of course, if you have to remain anonymous because of a personal and private matter that you're writing about, we will honor your request, but if you can, please at least identify yourself by first name, city, state, and country.

58:39

Don't go away. We're going to be right back with Joe Thorne on the character of the church right after these messages from our sponsors.

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01:02:05

Iron Sharpens today. Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am

01:02:14

I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man,

01:02:20

I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church. We are a

01:02:26

Reformed Baptist Church, and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

01:02:33

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things.

01:02:41

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostle's priority, it must not be ours either.

01:02:48

We believe, by God's grace, that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man, and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.

01:03:01

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

01:03:07

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01:03:18

TV program entitled, Resting in Grace. You can find us at providencebaptistchurchma .org,

01:03:25

that's providencebaptistchurchma .org, or even on sermonaudio .com. Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor

01:03:32

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Chris Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen, if you just tuned us in. Our second guest today for the last hour of the program is

01:03:42

Joe Thorne, no stranger now to Iron Sharpens Iron listeners. He is the lead pastor of Redeemer Fellowship in St.

01:03:50

Charles, Illinois, the author of Note to Self, the Discipleship of Preaching to Yourself, and Experiencing the

01:03:58

Trinity, the Grace of God for the People of God. He's also a contributor to the

01:04:03

ESV Men's Devotional Bible, the ESV Story Bible, and the

01:04:09

Mission of God Study Bible. And he's host of a podcast exploring Christian faith and practice from a

01:04:16

Reformed Baptist perspective titled, Doctrine and Devotion. And he is going to be addressing now for the second hour of the program, the character of the church.

01:04:28

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens Iron again, Pastor Joe Thorne.

01:04:35

Joe Thanks so much for having me back, Chris. Hey, it is my pleasure. And I am so thrilled that you and my dear friend,

01:04:44

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries have finally met and that you spoke together at a conference in New Zealand.

01:04:52

And it's actually one of those speaking topics that you addressed that was the inspiration behind our topic today.

01:04:59

If you could tell us about that conference in New Zealand that you just returned to the States from. Well, listen, the first thing

01:05:06

I got to say, though, is that on the dividing line today, James was wearing the

01:05:12

Doctrine and Devotion t -shirt that Jimmy, and that's the t -shirt for the podcast that Jimmy and I co -host.

01:05:19

So James is down with Doctrine and Devotion. It's pretty cool. The conference was an

01:05:28

Acts 29 conference, and Acts 29 is a church planting network. It's a global church planting network that our church is a part of.

01:05:35

And so they put on this conference in New Zealand, and it was all on ecclesiology or the doctrine of the church.

01:05:41

And so it was a combination of Acts 29 and Reformed Baptists. And it was a diverse gathering of churches, like people from all these different churches.

01:05:50

We had assemblies of God and Charismatic and all these people all come to hear the truth preached and to have good fellowship.

01:05:57

It was an amazing time in Wellington, New Zealand, where those earthquakes just happened, actually. Wow, there were earthquakes in New Zealand?

01:06:05

Yeah, a seven -point -something on the Richter. Did you feel them while you were there? No, they just happened like yesterday.

01:06:10

Oh, okay. Well, praise God that you were spared of that. Now, obviously, we have had you do this before, but people are scratching their heads hearing

01:06:21

Acts 29 because it doesn't appear in their own Bibles, if you could explain that.

01:06:27

Yes, it's in the Apocrypha. So just have them open up their

01:06:36

Roman Catholic Bibles. Well, actually, it would probably be in the

01:06:42

Gnostic Gospels. Acts 29 is a network of global churches.

01:06:51

It's made up of churches all around the world, and these churches are committed to planting more churches.

01:06:57

It's Reformed, it's Baptist, it's Presbyterian, it's Evangelical Free, and they call themselves Acts 29, or we call ourselves

01:07:03

Acts 29, because as most of your listeners know, the book of Acts ends in chapter 28, and so by calling our network

01:07:12

Acts 29, we just want to kind of say, like, this is God. He continues to be at work in the church and the world, and we're just one small part of God's continuing work in the world through his church today.

01:07:25

Oh, and by the way, just before I forget, I do want to announce to our listeners, since we were talking about our mutual friend

01:07:31

James White, his daughter Summer is going to be my guest,

01:07:36

God willing, this Friday for the full two hours. Summer White, who is a part of a podcast called

01:07:43

Sheologians, and you don't have to get filled with anxiety about this.

01:07:50

She is not a feminist. In fact, I think that's one of the watchwords of the

01:07:56

Sheologians podcast and ministry, is that they are opposing the encroachment of feminism into the

01:08:07

Evangelical church. But I think that you will all be blessed by hearing Summer's testimony and what she is doing today, entering into the arena that her father has become both famous and infamous in his participation, because not only does he have a lot of very loyal friends, loved ones, brothers, and followers, but he also has quite a number of as a result of standing up for the truth in the midst of a world filled with falsehood.

01:08:45

So I think if you're really loudly and aggressively, and especially globally, proclaiming the truth, you are going to be getting enemies.

01:08:57

There's no way that you could be a friend to everyone if you are really unwaveringly speaking the truth with the audience as large as James White.

01:09:09

There's no way that you could walk away from that without gaining some enemies. That's right. My wife really enjoys

01:09:16

Summer's podcast and her growing ministry, so yeah,

01:09:21

I'm looking forward to the conversation you're going to have. Great. Well, as we have already said, we are going to be discussing the distinctives of the church.

01:09:32

Five distinctives of the church were the character of the church, and the first is the right preaching of the scriptures.

01:09:40

If you could explain further on that, because obviously everybody who is a pastor thinks they are rightly preaching the scriptures.

01:09:51

That doesn't mean they are. Right. Yeah, yeah. Well, before we even say that, if I can,

01:09:57

I just want to kind of impress upon people that I really don't view these as my opinion.

01:10:03

In fact, there's nothing new here, but that you don't just get to make up what your church is.

01:10:10

You know, the local church, any local church, either is healthy and biblical or it is not, or it's a variation of it, and there has to be some constituent elements that actually make a church a church in the view, you know, from God's perspective.

01:10:25

And the way that I see it, and really this is reflected in the Reformed tradition, really, largely anyway, is that there are certain things that have to be there, and one of them is the right preaching of the

01:10:36

Word. And the right preaching of scripture is not necessarily an inspiring message or some kind of sit on a stool, not that that's wrong, and talk to people, and it's not that it's not motivational speaking.

01:10:53

Good preaching may be very motivational and practical and all of that, but really what the right preaching of the

01:11:00

Word is, is that a particular passage of scripture is understood and communicated to the people.

01:11:10

The truth and the theology in that text are communicated well, where the relevant implications of that passage and of those truths and applications are being made known, and that it is ultimately drawing the listeners to see the gospel of Jesus more clearly.

01:11:28

So it's a long way of saying that we rightly preach the Word when we have a good theology derived from the

01:11:36

Word, derived from a particular text that is applied to the audience in such a way that they see

01:11:41

Jesus more clearly. That's how I would say it. And do you think, because there is differences of opinion on this, do you think that preaching should be done where even if you have a small congregation and you know the folks there, you should not really take it for granted that everybody there is truly regenerate?

01:12:07

Because there are people who may be very clever at disguising their unregenerate heart.

01:12:18

Yeah, I think there's always the possibility of pretenders. I think it's more likely that some people are just deluded themselves and think that they are believers, when in fact they aren't.

01:12:29

And much of that in a lot of Baptist churches is the Baptist church's fault because of the way that they practice evangelism and preaching to begin with.

01:12:37

You know, we just tell people, if you pray this prayer and meet it in your heart, then you're okay with Jesus. That's just not how it works.

01:12:43

Yeah, that's obviously a heretical concept that has developed throughout the evangelical church, not just Baptist.

01:12:52

Yeah, it's the 20th century sacraments, right? Evangelical sacrament. If you do this, then you are okay.

01:12:59

Your sins are washed away. So people think like, oh, I did this thing, so I'm okay now with Jesus, and they're coming to church. So I think, yes,

01:13:05

I think when we're preaching the gospel, when we're preaching to the congregation, we should always be working with the text in order to make the gospel plain and applied.

01:13:15

And so whether you have one non -Christian or no non -Christians in your church service, you should still be preaching the gospel and making the appeal for people to draw near to Christ through faith and repentance, because that's the message that I need to hear every week, and I do know the

01:13:30

Lord by His grace. But I agree, it's very likely that in any church, you have people that don't know

01:13:39

Jesus that maybe think that they do or are playing some kind of a game. More than likely, I think that they just don't know that they don't know.

01:13:47

Right, I mean, you even have examples from church history where pastors, like Abraham Kuyper was a pastor when he realized he was lost and needed a

01:13:59

Savior. Right, Elias Keech, Benjamin Keech's son, came to America, wasn't a believer, but passed himself off as a preacher and preached his dad's sermons as if they were his own, and while preaching one of his dad's sermons, he was converted.

01:14:14

Wow. Wow, I wonder, now that wasn't the same, I heard of a person from history who would get up in public and mock the

01:14:29

Lord by preaching in what he deemed to be a comical way, and while preaching his own words from his mouth, the

01:14:37

Lord brought him to conviction and he was saved. I don't know if that's the same... No, that's not the same guy, but that's great.

01:14:43

I haven't read that. Okay, and well, yeah, the reason why I said that there's some division amongst

01:14:50

Christians on that issue is that there are some who say that when you're in the confines of the gathered assembly, that the responsibility of the pastor is to instruct the saints, and that the preaching of the gospel to the lost is something that you should be doing in your everyday lives in evangelism efforts outside of the confines of that assembly, but from what you've said, that both things should be combined, especially when the text, if you're being exegetical, expository preaching is part of your sermons, then you should be preaching the gospel when it calls for it.

01:15:38

Absolutely. I mean, we're preaching, first of all, this whole notion, like, who are you going to target in worship?

01:15:44

Are you going to target the seekers, which is kind of a misnomer of the way that the church growth movement applied that word to some non -believers, but you know, you have seekers.

01:15:53

Do you preach to them? Do you aim at the non -believers, or do you aim at the congregation? Do you aim at believers? And I would say in worship, not just in preaching, but in the whole of it, the target is

01:16:02

God. It is not the people first. We want to make sure that everything we are doing is pleasing to God, think regulative principle, that everything that we're doing is according to Scripture, pleasing to God, and then we can figure out, okay, so now that we've got this established,

01:16:19

God -targeted, and I'm preaching this text, I'm preaching Scripture, what does the Scripture have to say to the people who are here?

01:16:25

You're going to preach to the people who are there, the people who are there will be, even 1 Corinthians bears this out, the people who will be present in your church are going to be a mix of believers and unbelievers, and it may be the vast majority are believers, but the bigger your church, the more likely it is that you have a lot more non -believers there.

01:16:43

So I think it's foolish to not be preaching to both the lost and the saved on any given

01:16:48

Sunday. And one of the things that even you'll have reformed people disagreeing over are the differences between topical and expository preaching, where you're going verse by verse, chapter by chapter, and so on.

01:17:10

Do you think that both are completely equally acceptable, or should both be incorporated into the pulpit of every church, or is it okay to use just one methodology, etc.?

01:17:25

Well, I think for my conviction here is that all preaching should be the earnest exploration and communication of a text of Scripture in such a way that makes

01:17:41

God known to those who are hearing, okay? And so that might be grounded in, you might do that in a one passage in one book on one

01:17:54

Sunday to another passage in another book on the next Sunday. I think both are expository, whether you're going through a book or you're doing something more thematic,

01:18:03

I like that word, or topical. But I think my conviction is, for the health of the church, the healthiest is to go through books of the

01:18:11

Bible, not necessarily 100 % of the time, but I think the majority of the diet is probably good if you're doing books of the

01:18:20

Bible because, A, it forces you to deal with a range of topics that you might not otherwise choose.

01:18:25

Amen, that's right. It prevents hobby -horsing. Yeah, and I like my horses! I'll start ranting about all kinds of stuff.

01:18:34

So this keeps me on track, it makes me preach on things that I might not otherwise, and then people can't blame you.

01:18:39

They can't say, like, what do you want me to do? It says that we were predestined according to the foreknowledge of God. What am

01:18:45

I supposed to do? And it says that I'm going to deal with it. So I think it's good for that. I also think that what it does is it teaches the congregation hermeneutics, because you're not popping around from book to book and genre to genre, you're showing them how to interpret epistles as you're going through that letter, or you're teaching them how to interpret poetic literature when you're in Proverbs.

01:19:06

So I think it's helpful on a lot of different levels, but you have to go, I think you have to go thematic at some point, because you want to teach on doctrines like the

01:19:17

Trinity. You want to teach a series, say, on the Ordo Salutis, or the order of salvation.

01:19:23

And so to do those kind of systematic theology sermons or series, you have to go thematic.

01:19:30

And so what we do is we usually go Old Testament, thematic, New Testament, thematic, Old Testament.

01:19:35

We do series like that at our church. Yes, and it not only prevents the

01:19:44

Arminian from avoiding Calvinistic passages, it prevents hyper -Calvinists from avoiding passages like Joshua 24, 15, choose this day whom you will serve, and so on.

01:20:02

It makes us honest, it forces us to be honest with the whole of Scripture. Right, and that's one of the reasons the thing that Calvinists have to remember, especially new

01:20:15

Calvinists who are in that, as they call them, cage -stage Calvinists who have a tendency towards hyper -Calvinism, that men are commanded to decide and to choose.

01:20:28

The issue is, can they do that from an unregenerate, dead, lifeless soul?

01:20:36

Does it require the regeneration of the Holy Spirit first? But that does not mean that we avoid the language of the

01:20:44

Scripture when it talks about deciding and choosing and that kind of a thing. Right, exactly. We're responsible.

01:20:50

We're responsible for choosing whom we serve, whom we worship, and we have made that choice.

01:20:59

Self, the world, the devil, sin, and until God liberates our hearts from the bondage to sin that we have imposed upon ourselves in the fall, we will not choose

01:21:11

Him. And of course, though, even if somebody uses verse -by -verse exposition as their model, if they are so bent on promoting their aberrant teaching, they will just pour eisegetical twisting of the

01:21:34

Scriptures into their sermons, because they may be able to find a prohibition of women wearing slacks wherever you look in the

01:21:43

Bible, or whatever the case may be. Yeah, a bad preacher can do damage to any method of preaching.

01:21:51

Yes, and by the way, I want to repeat our email address if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for our guest,

01:21:59

Joe Thorne. It's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:22:06

We have Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York, who says, Is it idolatrous for an unbeliever to say that they won't attend a church because another body of believers has hurt them in some way?

01:22:22

I'm not really sure that that would be isolated to unbelievers saying that, I think, but believers can go through those seasons of life where they're saying the same thing.

01:22:31

Sure. But if you could comment on that. Yeah, well, you know, diagnosing it as idolatry is a pretty specific thing, so is it wrong,

01:22:43

I think, might be the better question. Is it wrong to say, I'm not going to go to church because I got burned by the church?

01:22:49

Well, it certainly, it's unwise. Yes, it's wrong. It's not a really well -thought -out response to the problem or to the abuse that you suffered, because not all churches are the same.

01:23:04

Churches are different, pastors are different, Christians are different, and you might go to a doctor and have a really bad experience, but you don't write off all doctors.

01:23:13

You say, That doctor was a quack. I'm not going back to that guy. I'm going to find a good doctor, and I'm going to go to that person who's going to be able to help properly diagnose me and help me get healthy.

01:23:21

It's the same with the church. You know, you've got bad churches, and unfortunately, I think most churches, if you're just talking buildings and assemblies, most of them aren't good, and most of them aren't healthy.

01:23:32

We've got such a huge range of quote -unquote churches that, you know, if you throw a dart, you're not likely to hit a good one.

01:23:39

You're going to have to do some research. So I would say you have to first determine,

01:23:45

What do I need to flourish as a believer, if you're talking to a

01:23:52

Christian? And in that case, the Scripture has told us you need the preaching of the Word, you need the administration of the ordinances, you need the communion of the saints, you need all of these things.

01:24:03

Otherwise, you can't be and do who you're supposed to be and do. And for your non -Christian friends, the issue is less whether or not they should be going to church.

01:24:14

The issue is, What are they going to do with Jesus? That's really the issue. How do they view their sin?

01:24:21

How do they understand their need? Now, in my experience, getting people who are not believers to Jesus is oftentimes accomplished by bringing them to church.

01:24:32

Just by virtue of getting them around the people of God to see what

01:24:38

God is doing there and to hear the Word preached is a great means of seeing them come to know Jesus. Right, I often tell people when they are saying that they refuse to go to church because they know that there are hypocrites in church, they see what televangelists do on television and then they're sickened by it, they see or have experienced some kind of harsh or unbiblical treatment at a specific church.

01:25:05

I always remind them, well, just because there was a Judas doesn't give you the right to reject

01:25:11

Jesus. Right. And you could even say the same thing, just because there was a

01:25:17

Judas, you can't reject Paul and Peter and James and, you know, we often use things like that as an excuse.

01:25:28

Just as I was even mentioning to my first guest, Christina Fox, that I know even in my own life when it came to a period of sinful abuse of alcohol to the point of being, you know, a really scandalous level of alcoholism, you think that because you have been hurt or you are experiencing some kind of a painful trial that it gives you a free pass to sin for at least for a season in your mind, you may think, because you deserve that, you know, you deserve to be able to do that because you've been hurt and people think that they can actually disobey

01:26:12

Christ's commands in the Word of God to not forsake the assembling of the brethren and so on.

01:26:18

And the ironic thing in all of this is that, you know, you've been burned, you've been hurt by someone else, but now because of the path that you're going down, you are hurting yourself, you're afflicting yourself.

01:26:29

It's, you know, you think that you're finding comfort in your sin or in your refusal to do what you think, what you know you're supposed to do, but instead you're just making it worse for yourself in the long run.

01:26:41

We are going to go through some of the other character traits of the church when we return from our break.

01:26:47

This is our final break. If you'd like to join us, please email us at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:26:53

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away, we will be right back with Joe Thorne.

01:27:02

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That's lynbrookbaptist .org. Chris Arnson here and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia and here's my friend

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01:32:45

This is Chris Arnsin. If you just tuned us in, our second guest for the day has been and will continue to be

01:32:53

Joe Thorne. He is the host of the podcast called

01:32:58

Doctrine and Devotion, as well as the pastor of Redeemer Fellowship in St. Charles, Illinois, author of a number of books.

01:33:06

We are discussing the character of the church and we're going through some specific character traits of the church.

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Iron Sharpens Iron website where you can do that, where it gives the address and so on, where you can mail a check.

01:34:46

That's IronSharpensIronRadio .com. And as I said, we're interviewing right now

01:34:52

Joe Thorne. Before we return to some of the character traits of the church, I want you to tell our listeners a bit about the podcast that you host,

01:35:01

Doctrine and Devotion. JT Yeah, yeah. You know, if I don't make this clear, I'm going to get in trouble with all the listeners on the interwebs, because I am not the host.

01:35:11

I'm the co -host. There are two of us on that thing. It's me, Joe Thorne, and Jimmy Fofofowler.

01:35:18

We host this thing together, and it has been going on for, how long has it been going on,

01:35:23

Jimmy? About how many months? About three months old, and we focus on theology and really the kind of experiential aspect of theology.

01:35:36

We're not teaching, we're not really preparing at all. We just pick a topic and we say, all right, let's talk through this topic.

01:35:46

As we would if we were just sitting around and having a good time. So that's what we do, and people really like it.

01:35:53

We've seen God do some really encouraging things in the listeners' lives through it, and we're having a good time and it's growing really fast.

01:36:00

So yeah, you can check it out at DoctrineandDevotion .com. We are on Twitter and Instagram, at Doc and Devo, and you can find us on Facebook at Doctrine and Devotion as well.

01:36:13

And the word end is spelled out fully. It's DoctrineandDevotion .com.

01:36:19

Yeah. And right off the bat on their website, I see some controversial topic about women's ministry, so there you go.

01:36:27

That will always start some interesting conversations amongst brothers in Christ, especially if they're Calvinists.

01:36:34

And we are now in your list of character traits of the

01:36:41

Church. We are now up to the proper administration of the ordinances. If you could explain a little further.

01:36:49

Well, you know, as Protestants, we believe that there are two ordinances given to the Church by Jesus Christ, that of baptism and the

01:36:56

Lord's Supper. And these are gifts, these are graces to be received by faith, and so we want to make the most of them.

01:37:06

Baptism being the immersion of a confessing believer in water in the name of the

01:37:13

Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. This typically marks the beginning of his or her

01:37:20

Christian life, though these days, oftentimes it doesn't happen until quite a bit later, just because of the nature of...

01:37:27

just because of the confusing nature of Christian life in post -Christian America. Some people are getting baptized later and later.

01:37:35

But it is, you know, baptism is a symbol of our union with Christ, it is a symbol of our cleansing from sin through Christ's death, it is a symbol of our being buried with Him and being raised up again, it is a testimony, it is essentially a confession of Christ as Lord, and it is a preaching of the

01:38:00

Gospel, really, visually. This is... baptism doesn't take away our sin, it itself doesn't accomplish anything in us, but it proclaims what

01:38:11

God has done for us, and as it is received by faith, it does become a means of grace, a means of our sanctification, as we believe.

01:38:22

So to properly administer baptism for us simply means that we believe it is a sign and symbol of the

01:38:29

Gospel, of the New Covenant, and that it is to be received by those who believe. And we do have

01:38:36

RJ in White Plains, New York, who asks, how do I get...

01:38:41

how can I convey to my friends who reject the importance of baptism and the

01:38:50

Lord's Supper, because they say, since they are non -salvific, it really doesn't matter if we are baptized or take the

01:39:02

Lord's Supper. Right, so they're saying, since baptism doesn't save them, they don't have to do it?

01:39:09

Yes, and that's the same excuse that a lot of people use for not attending church at all to begin with.

01:39:15

Yeah, that makes sense. Why not? I mean, prayer doesn't save us either. We shouldn't pray. I agree with them. No praying. Let's not pray.

01:39:22

Let's not sing, because that doesn't save us. Let's not... I think, let's just not do any of these things. I'm...

01:39:29

no offense, but that's just a dumb argument. I would just tell them, like, this is a dumb argument. You can't, just because it doesn't save you, that's not the point.

01:39:38

The point is that these are means of God's grace by which we experience

01:39:43

God's power in our life, by which He changes us. If we want to draw near to God and experience the fullness of God, if we want to become who we're supposed to become, then we're going to make the most of these means, and that's, you know, what?

01:39:54

Prayer, the ministry of the Word, the ordinances, and where do you find those? You find those in the local church.

01:40:00

So, I mean, it sounds to me like most people, and I've met people like this, it sounds to me like they either are just lazy and disinterested in going to church for whatever reason, or they have been badly injured by a church, and they're so leery of going back in, they use this as an excuse to protect themselves.

01:40:19

But it's a non -argument. It doesn't make any sense, because just because it doesn't save you doesn't mean it's not extremely valuable or important.

01:40:29

Right. And there are people who use that as an excuse to really tarry or wait to really give a public declaration of their commitment to Christ, which may mean that they're not even saved to begin with.

01:40:50

If they are embarrassed to publicly identify with Christ in baptism or by receiving the

01:40:57

Lord's Supper, if they really do not want to stand before men and show them that this is indeed their life's commitment to follow

01:41:06

Christ, there could be a lot of more serious issues going on under the surface.

01:41:11

You know, you have the one extreme where people like to flaunt a badge of honor that they think that they are demonstrating to those around them that, look how holy

01:41:26

I am, I'm being baptized or I'm receiving the Lord's Supper. But then you have those on the other extreme who really don't want others to see them publicly making that kind of a commitment, because they really aren't saved to begin with.

01:41:39

Right, right. Listen, and I get that there's confusion about the doctrine of baptism, because so many churches today don't make much of a big deal about it, membership and all of that, but when you see in Scripture that Jesus commands you to be baptized, as a believer, you will be compelled.

01:42:01

And it doesn't mean that you're not going to be nervous or a little, you know, frightened or uneasy about it.

01:42:06

It's weird. I mean, if you're not, especially if you didn't grow up in the Church, but you will be compelled to do so, and I think we've got to take these seriously.

01:42:14

And the Lord's Supper is another one. I mean, the Lord's Supper, you know, most churches that I find, even a lot of Reformed churches, they'll celebrate the

01:42:22

Lord's Supper maybe monthly, sometimes quarterly. And the

01:42:28

Scripture doesn't tell us that we have to do it every week that we gather, but it is the only element in worship that we are prescribed to carry out that we somehow come up with a reason to not do every

01:42:41

Sunday. It's like we agree, like we're supposed to be singing every Sunday, we're supposed to pick up an offering every

01:42:46

Sunday. You know the offering's not going to go quarterly. We're going to do the preaching of the Word, the reading of the

01:42:52

Word, all these things every week, but when it comes to the Lord's Supper, eh, once a month. Yeah, I happen to agree with you on that one.

01:43:01

I think that there is compelling evidence from the practice of the early church that we should do it every week from what the

01:43:09

Scriptures themselves teach. I agree. And, well, obviously these issues, though, about what is taking place at the

01:43:19

Lord's Supper and Baptism, they still to this day, and will always until we're in heaven, create some kind of division amongst our brothers and sisters in Christ who take a different approach.

01:43:34

Obviously the biggest division amongst Reformed believers is those who believe in infant baptism and those who believe in credo or believer only baptism.

01:43:46

Right. But that does not mean that we reject these as not being our brothers in Christ or view them as heretics or as being lost, am

01:43:55

I right? Of course, of course. Some of the most theologically robust and gospel -rich churches practice infant baptism, and so we don't reject them because of their view on baptism, we just reject their view of baptism just like they reject ours.

01:44:14

Right. But we're brothers, and listen, I'm a Baptist, a Reformed Baptist, so I look up to my

01:44:20

Presbyterian brothers and sisters as if they are my older brothers and sisters, and they've been at it longer than I have been in a sense, you know, historically.

01:44:29

But I just happen to be a little bit smarter as the younger brother, as the

01:44:34

Baptist younger brother. And I do have a word to those people who are going to a

01:44:41

Baptist church who are putting off getting baptized because of a fear of being dunked under the water, which some people really have.

01:44:51

I think that if they start looking through Fox's book of martyrs and realize what those who have lived before us risked and even gave their lives just to identify with Christ publicly in baptism,

01:45:07

I think that you could get over your fear of getting dunked for a matter of a split second when you know that there are people who have been tortured and executed for doing the same thing in church history.

01:45:19

I had to baptize, last year I had to baptize a senior. She's a widow, and she has not been dunked underwater in like 30 years or something, and she was really scared.

01:45:34

And so what I would tell people, if you really do have a fear about being baptized, whatever it is, and it's holding you back, go and talk to your pastor about it.

01:45:43

Just sit on it. At least go and talk to him and let him know what's up, and he will, if he's a good pastor, he's going to counsel you through this.

01:45:49

He's going to walk you through it. He's not going to throw you in the tub on Sunday. He's going to patiently shepherd you through this process so that you can do it and honor the

01:45:57

Lord and experience his grace. And he's not going to immerse you under the water and then read the book of Leviticus before he brings you back up.

01:46:06

Well, it depends on the Baptist church. There are some denominations that are a little more strict.

01:46:18

And well, we move on now. Obviously, each of these could take more than one two -hour show to go in to plumb to the depths of the topics, but for sake of time, we're obviously moving on now to the development of biblical leadership.

01:46:37

Yeah. And all of this I cover in, I have three books coming out next year through Moody, and what we're talking about here will be in the second book called

01:46:46

The Character of the Church. And so that's where I explore these in a little bit more detail. When we're talking about leadership in the church, what

01:46:54

I'm thinking of are the two offices established by scripture, and that's the office of elder and the office of deacon.

01:47:01

And the office of elder, this is the office or the ministry of the pastorate, right?

01:47:09

So here you can think of elder, pastor, bishop. It's all the same. They're just different words emphasizing slightly different functions.

01:47:17

But the pastor or the elder is the one who bears the responsibility for leading and feeding the congregation.

01:47:26

This is the shepherd, preacher, teacher, and in any healthy church, there will be more than one.

01:47:34

You'll have a plurality of elders working together to bear the weight and the load and the responsibility of this ministry, that is specifically the ministry of the word and prayer for the congregation, and as they speak, it's good.

01:47:49

And the main thing, like in our short time, that I would want to say is that in everything that elders are supposed to be doing in the church, and there's a lot, the most important thing that I think is being neglected a lot today is that of shepherding, like actually knowing the people, loving the people, walking with the people.

01:48:08

That is the pastor's job, and pastors, you got to get on that, because that, I mean, you can't just sit in your office and study.

01:48:15

It's not enough for you to go and preach. You actually have to actively shepherd people, and that means you got to know your, you know the sheep.

01:48:21

So that's one thing that I would say about elders. You find the qualifications for elders, of course, in First Timothy 3, and similar to the qualifications for an elder who has authority and oversight in the church are the qualifications for deacons, and deacons, while they do not have authority in the church, they do not exercise oversight, they are set apart as ministers to the body to meet many of the immediate and practical needs of the body, and these are people generally appointed to specific responsibilities and tasks to make sure that the elders can commit themselves to the work they're primarily called to, while the people of the church are being cared for in every possible way that's relevant to the church.

01:49:10

Yes, pastors are not just supposed to be orators, great orators, who are there to impress everyone with their knowledge.

01:49:23

They have to roll up their sleeves and, like Robert Murray McShane was famous for, really get involved in the lives of the brethren there, and that they are charged with overseeing, and I can't remember right now what great man of God said this, but he said to pastors, you must be shepherds who smell like sheep.

01:49:54

It really escapes my mind right now who said that, but I remember that striking me as a very profound statement, but we move on to the next of the character traits that you have listed for us, which is the gracious implementation of church discipline.

01:50:24

Right, okay, so we've got 10 minutes. If we divide that up from what's really left, we probably have like three minutes just to cover this one, so let me say it this way.

01:50:34

Church discipline is usually thought of as a corrective discipline, because that's the primary way that we talk about it.

01:50:43

Church discipline technically is formative and reformative. Formative meaning those positive disciplines, the regular ongoing activity of the church, preaching, prayer, teaching, fellowship, all of that that forms the

01:50:54

Christian's character. Reformative discipline, which we are typically talking about when we say church discipline, is corrective discipline for Christians, members of the church, who have persisted in sin without repentance.

01:51:06

They are continuing in sin that is dangerous to themselves, dangerous to others, and they need accountability.

01:51:14

They need help. They don't need punishment, but they do need help in repenting and returning, and so church discipline, following the pattern that we see in Matthew 18 and in 1

01:51:26

Corinthians 5, a church that cares for its members and is healthy will watch out for members who are in danger.

01:51:35

When we see that, we will approach them, appeal to them, try to understand them and appeal to them, and we will offer assistance to them.

01:51:44

If they reject that and are not repentant, we give them some time, but we will go back again with more than one witness, and we will appeal to them again.

01:51:53

This is coming from a place of love and for a desire for their wholeness, and if they continue to refuse to repent, we will go to them again.

01:52:01

We'll bring it before the church. Ultimately, if they do not repent, then we have to, according to the commands of Christ and the

01:52:10

Apostle Paul, we have to let them go from the church. And it's not just giving them a pass, it's we are excommunicating them and saying, we don't recognize you to be a

01:52:19

Christian because of how far you've gone in impenitence, and we're cutting you off from membership in this body with the hope that you will feel the pressure of your sin and your need for Jesus in return.

01:52:33

Man, that's what we need to do an episode on church discipline, because church discipline is jacked up in the church.

01:52:40

Yeah, I agree. I would be more than happy to do another one. I actually did something. I don't know if anybody else has ever done this, but I did a full two -hour program on church discipline with my former pastor on Long Island, who was one of the elders who put me under discipline.

01:52:59

And so I don't know if anybody has ever done a program where the one who was the disciplinee interviewed one of his discipliners.

01:53:09

But I wanted to be very open about that part of my past, because there are people who are running from churches, not wanting to be disciplined, thinking that will be the end of the road for them in some way.

01:53:28

But the whole point is to restore a brother, and it might even be a restoration that saves someone's life, let alone their never -dying soul.

01:53:43

So obviously, in our day and age where people's feelings seem to be raised to a height far above their eternal souls, is a very problematic situation that the church is saturated with.

01:54:05

But yeah, we should do a program on that, because I don't think it could be ever repeated enough.

01:54:12

And last but not least, you have a clear focus on the mission Jesus gave the church. Now, this is the one that seems a little out of place for people in the

01:54:21

Reformed tradition, not because they disagree with it, but because they usually aren't talking about this when they talk about the essential elements that make a church a church.

01:54:29

You know, they talk about word, sacrament, or ordinances, leadership, and discipline. But I think it's important to keep this idea of the mission of the church on this list, because it is so easy for our churches today to be off -mission and focused on secondary issues, so much so that they forget the real reason that they exist.

01:54:48

And the real reason the church is in the world is not to reform cities, it's not to pass policy in the public schools.

01:54:56

We are in this world to preach the gospel and make disciples. And as disciples, we are engaged in politics, we're engaged in feeding the homeless, and in doing all these things.

01:55:07

We should be shining examples of God's mercy and work of restoration in the world as disciples, but the mission that God has given the church is not social action.

01:55:18

Any kind of social activity, works of mercy, those are the byproducts of the mission.

01:55:23

But the mission is to make disciples of all nations. So we preach the gospel, we see people come to trust

01:55:29

Christ, we raise them up in the faith, we equip them to do the work of ministry in their vocation, in their recreation, in all of life, and we turn them loose.

01:55:39

And the church shines gloriously as a robust, theologically robust, active people of God who are doing those things that churches sometimes focus on to the exclusion of what the mission is.

01:55:53

Right. I gave some friendly warnings to pastors that I know who

01:56:01

I thought were stepping over the boundaries of proper pastoral guidance or really urging, public urging, to support

01:56:18

Donald Trump in the last election. And the reason why

01:56:24

I think that it could be dangerous to support a political candidate as a pastor or as a prominent member of a church when you are publicly identifying the church with a specific candidate, even if that person is not even known to be a regenerate individual, what you're doing is if you're creating a scenario where even if this is the better candidate, you're going to have the world sitting back and saying, okay, this is your hero that is supposed to rescue us from this horrible situation we're in.

01:57:03

What are you going to do now? Let's see what happens, what's going to happen now. And if this person turns out to be scandalous or a huge failure, and when you have with the same enthusiasm that you spread the gospel with, promoted a specific candidate,

01:57:19

I think that that could have disastrous consequences. Yes, it confuses people about what our message is, what our point is, what we take most seriously.

01:57:32

Oh, and listen, I just had this revelatory word of prophecy. I'm not a charismatic person right now.

01:57:38

And this word of knowledge that I have is Trump is going to be a dud, just like every other president that's come before him for the last so many decades.

01:57:48

I mean, everybody's freaking out. I'm like one of the few people like, yeah, the

01:57:54

Lord is on his throne. We're going to be okay. I'm sure there'll be some downs and some ups, but nobody's going to save this country.

01:58:03

Nobody's going to save this country. And nobody's going to single -handedly ruin this country. We've had a slow degrade for some time now, and I anticipate that that's going to continue to happen.

01:58:16

So let's make sure that as the church, we're focused on the mission that God has given us to be salt and light, to preach the gospel, to make disciples, and be prepared to suffer for righteousness sake.

01:58:28

Yes, and pray for President Trump, President -elect Trump right now, because he obviously has the ear of a lot of evangelicals around the

01:58:41

United States, and they have his ear, more importantly. Evangelicals he knows helped elect him, so he may possibly be by God's grace, that is, of course.

01:58:58

He may be more willing to listen to what they have to say, and let's pray that people just don't view him as a celebrity, but actually preach the gospel to him and call him unto repentance.

01:59:11

Who knows what God's going to do in the next four years, but what we know we're called to do is to pray for our leaders.

01:59:18

Amen. Donald Trump is it. Well, I know that your website is joethorn .net. That's joethorn, with no e at the end, dot net.

01:59:27

And I really thank you for being a part of the program. I look forward to having you back again very soon, Joe. Thanks, Chris, really appreciate it.

01:59:33

It's always fun. And I want everybody out there listening to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater

01:59:39

Savior than you are a sinner. I look forward to receiving your questions for our guests tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.