November 14, 2016 Show with Christina Fox on “A Heart Set Free: A Journey to Hope Through the Songs of Lament” PLUS Joe Thorn on “The Character of the Church”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen.

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet

earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Monday on this

14th day of November 2016.

I'm delighted to have for the first hour, for the very first time as a guest on the

program, Christina Fox.

She's going to be talking about her book, A Heart Set Free, A Journey to Hope Through the Psalms of

Lament, and the second hour we have returning as a guest on this program, Joe

Thorne, a lead pastor of Redeemer Fellowship in St. Charles, Illinois, and he is

going to be talking about the character of the church.

Before I begin the program, I just want to give a report on the wonderful time that I

had over the weekend in Quakertown, Pennsylvania.

I was at the conference sponsored by the Alliance of Confessing

Evangelicals there in Quakertown, and Joel Beeke was one of the speakers who's been a guest in this

program many times.

Anthony Carter, who has been a guest here as well, and I'm looking forward to having him back.

It was nice to see him, actually meet him for the first time ever.

I interviewed him on the phone, so I had never met him before, but it was a great time

sharing a fellowship with him, and also Tony Medina, who I hope to have

on the program.

I'm sorry, it's Tony Merida, who I hope to have on the program as well very soon,

and it was just a great time of fellowship with the saints there, and I'm looking

forward to even having the pastor of Grace Bible Fellowship

there in Quakertown on the program soon.

He was the actual host of the program of the conference,

and it was just a really joyful experience, a really edifying experience, and it left

me invigorated and refreshed, and I just thank God for being there, and

I'll give you updates on where you can get the recordings of those messages.

I also want to thank my friends over at Lindbrook Baptist Church on Long Island, New York, who

actually funded my trip there to attend that conference, so thank you very much

for that, and I will never be able to thank my dear brethren at Lindbrook Baptist

enough for the graciousness and generosity they've extended towards me.

Christina Fox, who I said is our first guest, is a blogger at christinafox

.com, where she chronicles her faith journey.

She writes for a number of Christian ministries and publications, including Desiring God and the Gospel

Coalition.

Today we are going to be discussing her book, A Heart Set Free, A Journey to Hope Through the Psalms

of Lament, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron,.

Christina Fox.

Thank you, I'm excited to be speaking with you today.

Well, before I even go.

Into this book of yours, as I very often do with my guests, I'd like to know something

about your own personal journey of faith to embrace Christ as your

Lord and Savior.

What kind of religious upbringing did you have, if any, and what were the

events that the Lord used sovereignly to.

Lead you to himself?

Well, I grew up in the church, so you

know, but it wasn't until I was in

middle school that a Sunday school

teacher in her

class

mentored and

discipled

me, and

so through

that relationship and

from

then

on I just...

Well, God is

certainly

a gracious God,.

And the fact that he preserves the children of believers

is just as much of a miracle as when he rescues those from out of

much darker areas of the world and life, and he is an

awesome and mighty God.

And when was it that you realized that you had a gift for writing, and

eventually what led.

You to write this book, A Heart Set Free?

I always enjoyed writing as a kid.

You know, I wrote literature to them.

I worked at the school newspaper and those kind of things.

I wrote little pieces, but

I didn't end up studying that in college, so I kind of didn't write for a while unless

it was papers for school, but it

wasn't until I

was challenges of being a mom

when my passion for writing kind of ignited, and I started

blogging and that kind of thing.

Well, this book that we are discussing today, A Heart Set Free, a journey to hope

through the Psalms of Lament, if you could tell us about the origins of this book.

Well, there's, I guess, a few different factors involved in me writing it.

My background is in counseling.

I have a license as a counselor, and so lament and emotions and

those kind of things, my stock in trade, if you want to call it.

But also, you know, I have emotions, and I have had a lot of

seasons of lament in my life, an

anchor for me, a place where I turned

to of what I was

exactly, what my own emotions were.

And so, in my own study of the Psalms for my

own benefit, you know, I came to learn that there was this

structure, commonalities among the laments.

We could follow ourselves.

Perhaps, if you could, there are a lot of.

Folks who are listening to Iron Sharpens Iron, I am discovering,

who are new believers.

They are really just starting to explore their Bibles and discover

what the Bible has to say about all facets of life.

If you could, perhaps especially for them, give a definition for what.

The Psalms of lament are.

Well, in the Psalms, you know, if you just start reading through them, you'll notice just

different ones.

There are some that are just all about, thank you God for this, thank you God that you've done this.

Ones that are very praiseworthy of God and his character.

Other ones about, you know, God's justice among, you know, the Israelites.

And then there's also what I

lament, and those specific Psalms are ones where the,

pours out his emotions to God and just lays them before the throne and says,

you know, describes exactly what's happening to him

and really pleads and asks God to help, you know, save me, rescue me, deliver

me, you know, make the situation change that I'm in.

So those are the specific together

in the book, nice and neatly.

They're kind of scattered throughout.

And the book of Psalms is actually a song book, is

it not?

The most remarkable thing is that all of

those 150,

they've sung

them to

God, and I just find that we

can do the same thing.

Yes.

The church should not be all about.

Happiness when we are worshiping, and some people who have visited Reformed

churches will leave there complaining that the songs at times seem

too gloomy or sad, but that should be, if we are looking at the Bible as a

blueprint, lament should be an aspect of our songs of

worship.

And our prayers and praise to God.

It acknowledges that.

Amen.

Well, I'm going to give our listeners.

Our email address.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Christina Fox, our email address is

chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Well, why don't we start in your book where you deal with emotions and how we

handle them.

Hello, Christina?

Yes.

I'm sorry.

Yeah, if you could just comment a bit on our emotions and how we handle them and why this is a part

of your book, the aspects of this.

Well, I would say,.

You know, a hundred years ago, emotions were not something we talked much about.

Probably even in my grandparents' generation, just being able to say, I'm

scared or really down lately, they would not have said that or

maybe known how to.

And I think we've improved a lot since that time.

I wouldn't say that we necessarily know what to do

with them.

So we can identify them and say, I'm worried or I'm, that's

kind of what I talked about in the beginning of the book

is kind

of our

naturally handle things.

But some of us, you know, try to pretend that we're doing okay.

Our emotions or hide from them, cover them up,

cover them up with other things like busyness,

so I do cover that.

Yeah.

And it's very awkward when you're greeting people at church.

And they very typically will ask you in somewhat of a robotic or

rehearsed way, hey, how are you?

And most people just say, great.

And even though that may not intentionally be a lie they're saying, but they're just responding

instinctively the way they think that they should respond.

And you also at times, you just don't want to depress people.

You don't want to drive them away by complaining or what have you.

I have adopted a response that I found out

subsequently was also something that a well -known Christian financial

advisor says.

But unbeknownst to me, when I started saying what I

typically say to people when they say, how are you?

I say, well, better than I deserve.

Oh, that's a good one.

And because we certainly are better than we deserve, no matter what lot in life we

have.

But you're talking about some pretty heart -wrenching

circumstances in the Psalms that the Psalmists, including David, who most

people are familiar with in some fashion, even if they're not Christians or Jews, they've heard some of the story of

David.

But David had gone through some pretty horrific

tragedies in his life.

And when we see things like this, when we read these Psalms, these

outpourings of sinners who have

been rescued by God's grace or who are crying out for rescue,

it really makes us realize that we're not alone.

In whatever struggle that we may have, there are others that have gone before us

who have had a more significant, perhaps, place within the kingdom of

redemptive history than we do.

But nonetheless, they have experienced these things.

And this should be an encouragement and a comfort to us, shouldn't it?

Yes.

Yeah, David and the other Psalmists

really show us that

we all—it does give

me great

hope.

To know that I'm not alone.

We do have a listener in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York.

Tyler, who asks, Is a good example of lamenting in the New Testament

Jesus's woes over Jerusalem?

Yes, I think I may have referenced that in the book as an example of Jesus

lamenting over when he said that he longed to

embrace them like a mother hen.

Yeah.

That is.

And then, of course, his time in the garden.

And Tyler, we thank you for your question.

And you are getting compliments of Christian -focused publications.

You're getting a free copy of A Heart Set Free, A Journey to Hope Through the Psalms of Lament by our guest,

Christina Fox.

We also have a listener in Slovenia, Joe, who

says, Please ask Christina what she suggests we do with the Psalms of Lament in those

places where the psalmist is asking God to bring destructive judgment on those

who are afflicting him in light of Jesus's instruction for us to love, forgive,

do good, for bless, and pray for our enemies.

Thank you very much for your contribution to our edification.

Yeah, there are people who actually use some things that

are apparent on the surface contradictions to go

even into a heretical understanding of God where they would say that the God of the Old Testament is all about

wrath, anger, and destruction, and vengeance, and

retribution, and the God of the New Testament is all about peace, love, mercy.

And they try to make it almost like a bad cop, good cop situation with God.

But this is not the case.

But if you could address Joe from Slovenia's question about where we see

a seeming of an apparent difference in the way some of the psalmists are

praying for God to bring destructive judgment on those who are afflicting them in light of Jesus's

instruction.

For us to love, forgive, and do good.

Well, ultimately the Psalms, as all the scripture does,

points to Christ, and Christ is the fulfillment of all the cries of our heart, including the cries

of the

himself.

He came to, I think, ultimately

live as he

lived

in a

redemptive history.

Well,.

Thank you Joe in Slovenia, and you are also getting a free copy of Christina

Fox's book, A Heart Set Free, A Journey to Hope Through the Psalms of

Lament.

I have heard even pastors say in light of what Joe is asking,

that it is not always a wrong thing as long as you

are praying with a heart of humility

and a heart where you are not

praying with a vengeful spirit or anything like that.

But there can be an appropriate way to pray for God to either

save those who are tormenting you in some very serious way,

or perhaps if this is a serious enough issue, that he remove them from the earth.

I have heard pastors that I respect pray in certain circumstances

like that.

Do you agree with that, that it is not without precedent for a Christian

to pray at times that either God save a certain individual or people, or remove

them from the.

Earth?

I don't think I have studied enough to be able to answer

that question.

It talks about the come

for them, so in some

sense you do see that.

Yeah, if you have somebody who is, for instance,.

For some reason escaping the justice of the legal authorities over and over again, and he is

putting your life and perhaps the life and well -being of your children at

constant risk, you know, some kind of a person who is just a real deviant,

perverted individual, I personally don't see anything

that would conflict with the scripture, especially because of some of these psalms that Joe has mentioned.

To pray, of course, first and foremost, that God would rescue them, even these

individuals, these wicked individuals, from their wickedness, save their souls, redeem and transform

them, and use them mightily, just as he did with Saul of Tarsus and many other individuals throughout history.

But if not, Lord, if you would please remove them from this earth to spare

my children of this catastrophe that is on the brink of

occurring, or what have you.

Could be all kinds of reasons that these things occur.

But, well, thanks again, Joe, and I urge you to please continue spreading

the word about Iron Sharpens Iron in Slovenia.

And if anybody else would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at

gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and please give us

at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside of

the USA.

We have an anonymous listener in Pennsylvania

who says that I have experienced horrible tragedies in

my life that would very closely resemble those that

occurred in the life of Job that have brought me to the brink of despair.

At times I wonder if God is displeased or angry with me.

I search my heart to see what sins I may be committing that have displeased

him.

Can someone who is fully obedient, of course not in a perfect sense because we never

will on this earth, but somebody who is trusting and obeying God as much as they can

and believe that they are being faithful, albeit in an imperfect

way, can such a person still be going through such horrible

occurrences in this life while still being pleasing in the sight of

God?

Yes, we

know he was.

He never, of course, knew the

disciples after Jesus said,

well,

because I think that was a common thought back in the times of the Old and

even New Testament of, you know, what would

happen

if we...

Yeah, it is a horrible shame that there are

heretical churches and ministries and organizations that will teach people

that if their faith is strong enough, they will live out this life happy

and healthy and wealthy at all times.

And if there is ever something that is catastrophic occurring in any of those categories in your life, it is

always because of your lack of faith.

But this is just a lie from the pit of hell, isn't it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And in fact, I believe all of Christ's

disciples in the scriptures who wrote any part of the

scriptures of the New Testament were executed, with the exception of

John, who was in exile on the Isle of Patmos.

Yes. Yes.

So following Christ...

Of course, Christ himself, who paid the price of our

redemption on Calvary, experienced the most horrific,

tormented death of all of humanity.

But I want to tell our anonymous listener that if you give me

your full name and full address, I promise I will not reveal that over the air, and I will mail

you a free copy of A Heart Set Free, A Journey to Hope Through the Psalms

of Lament by Christina Fox.

And this is compliments of Christian -focused publications.

And it will be mailed to you by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs

.com, cvbbs .com.

And Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service sends out all of our winners in our

audience, their free Bibles, books, CDs, DVDs, or whatever else they're winning.

So we thank Todd and Patty Jennings over at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service for being faithful

supporters of Iron Sharpens Iron.

So if you would reveal to us, or me, I should say, email

me your full name and mailing address.

I promise I will keep your identity concealed, and I will have this book mailed out to you as soon as possible.

And we're going to our first station break.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Christina Fox regarding A Journey

to Hope Through the Psalms of Lament, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence

if you live outside the USA.

But of course, if you would like to remain anonymous, especially if this is

in regard to some personal and private matters, you may remain anonymous just as our

last audience member did.

And we look forward to hearing from you after these words from our sponsors.

So don't go away.

We will be right back after these messages with Christina Fox.

Chris Arnson here and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia.

And here's my friend Dr. James White to tell you why.

Hi, I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

I hope you join me at the G3 conference hosted by Pastor Josh Bice and Praise Mill Baptist Church at

the Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta, January 19th through the 21st in

celebration of the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation.

I'll be joined by Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, D .A. Carson, Votie Baucom, Conrad M. Bayway,

Phil Johnson, Rosaria Butterfield, Todd Friel, and a host of other speakers who are dedicated to the

pillars of what G3 stands for, gospel, grace, and glory.

For more details, go to G3conference .com.

That's G3conference .com.

Thanks, James.

Make sure you greet me at the Iron Sharpens Iron exhibit booth while you're there.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart.

The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and

future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting

books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at Solid -Ground -Books .com.

That's Solid -Ground -Books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to

present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is sponsored by Harvey Cedars, a year -round Bible conference and retreat

center nestled on the Jersey Shore.

Harvey Cedars offers a wide range of accommodations to suit groups up to 400.

For generations, Christians have enjoyed gathering and growing at Harvey Cedars.

Each year, thousands of high school and college students come and learn more about God's Word.

An additional 9 ,000 come annually to Harvey Cedars as families, couples,

singles, men, women, pastors, seniors, and missionaries.

Ninety miles from New York City, 70 miles from Philly, and 95 miles from Wilmington,

and easily accessible, scores of notable Christian groups frequently plan conferences at

Harvey Cedars, like The Navigators, InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, Campus

Crusade, and the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals.

Find Harvey Cedars on Facebook or at hcbible .org,

hcbible .org.

Call 609 -494 -5689, 609 -494 -5689.

Harvey Cedars, where Christ finds people and changes lives.

Iron Sharpens Iron welcomes Solid Rock Remodeling to our family of sponsors.

Serving South Central Pennsylvania, Solid Rock Remodeling is focused on discovering,

understanding, and exceeding your expectations.

They deliver personalized project solutions with exceptional results.

Solid Rock Remodeling offers a full range of home renovations, including kitchen and bath

remodeling, decks, porches, windows and doors, roof and siding, and

more.

For a clear, detailed professional estimate, call this trustworthy team of problem solvers

who provide superior results that stand the test of time.

Call Solid Rock Remodeling at 717 -697 -1981,

717 -697 -1981, or visit

solidrockremodeling .com.

That's solidrockremodeling .com.

Solid Rock Remodeling, bringing new life to your home.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in for the first hour, our guest is Christina Fox.

She is author of A Heart Set Free, A Journey to Hope Through the Psalms of Lament.

And for the second hour, we have Joe Thorn on talking about the character

of the church.

So we hope you stay tuned for that as well.

We have another question from a listener in Indianapolis, Indiana.

Aaron writes, Would

Christina help us define the line when it is legitimate to lament to the

Lord and when we cross the line into sinning by fostering self -pity?

That's

a good question.

You know,

one example

of

Israelite

wandering, you

know, that would be more.

And that's

really

part of

not just, you

know,

identifying

yourself.

Sometimes even wonder,

he heard my cry.

Yeah.

In fact, one of the most

classic examples of a psalm that.

Features something that you just said is the psalm of David, Psalm 22,

which some of which is repeated by our Lord Jesus Christ on Calvary when he is

dying and receiving upon himself the wrath of our Father for our sins.

And he says, David says, which is later repeated

by Christ, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

And then David goes on, far from my deliverance of the words of my groaning.

Oh my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer and by night, but I have no

rest.

Yet you are holy.

Oh, you are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.

In you, our fathers trusted.

They trusted and you delivered them.

To you, they cried out and were delivered.

In you, they trusted and were not disappointed.

But I am a worm and not a man, a reproach of men and despised by the people.

All who see me sneer at me.

They separate with the lip.

They wag the head and saying, commit yourself to the Lord.

Let him deliver him.

Let him rescue him because he delights in him.

Yet you are he who brought me forth from the womb.

You made me trust when upon my mother's breasts, upon you, I was

cast from birth.

You have been my God from my mother's womb.

Be not far from me for trouble is near for there is none to help.

Many bulls have surrounded me.

Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.

They open wide their mouths at me as a ravening and roaring lion.

I am poured out like water and all my bones are out of joint.

My heart is like wax.

It is melted within me.

My strength is dried up like a potsherd and my tongue cleaves to my jaws

and you lay me in the dust of death.

For dogs have surrounded me.

A band of evildoers have encompassed me.

They pierced my hands and my feet.

I count all my bones.

They look, they stare at me.

They divide my garments among them and for my clothing they cast lots.

But you, O Lord, be not far off.

O you, my help, hasten to my assistance.

Deliver my soul from the sword, my only life from the power of the

dog.

Save me from the lion's mouth, from the horns of the wild oxen.

You answer me.

I tell of your name to my brethren.

In the midst of the assembly I will praise you.

You who fear the Lord, praise him.

All you descendants of Jacob glorify him and stand in awe of him.

All you descendants of Israel, for he has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted,

nor has he hidden his face from him.

But when he cried to him for help, he heard.

From you comes my praise in the great assembly.

I shall pay my vows before those who fear him.

The afflicted will eat and be satisfied.

Those who seek him will praise the Lord.

Let your heart live forever and all the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord and all the

families of the nations will worship before you.

For the kingdom is the Lord's and he rules over the nations.

All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship.

All those who go down to the dust will bow before him, even those who cannot keep his soul alive.

Posterity will serve him.

It will be told of the Lord to the coming generation.

They will come and will declare his righteousness to a people who will be born that he

has performed it.

So that is a powerful example of somebody, which obviously has a lot of prophetic

wording in it that our Lord and Savior had gone through.

But it doesn't end with somebody merely just complaining.

I mean, that is filled with praise and adoration to our God.

So I think in one sense, when we think of Aaron and Indianapolis's

question, shouldn't we, when we are crying out to God, these kind of

Psalms kind of give us a remembrance to

pause in the midst of our complaint to God and our groaning and

our crying out for mercy to praise him and adore him and magnify him and glorify him?

Am I right?

Yes, I think that's an important.

Aspect of the lament is that the

psalmist, even while he is

what he's done, his character, his faithfulness, his steadfastness,

he overall

sings as he cries and weeps.

And we have.

Bebe in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Oh, by the way, Aaron, you are also getting a free copy of A Heart Set Free, A Journey to Hope Through the Psalms

of Lament by Christina Fox.

So thank you very much, Aaron, in Indianapolis, Indiana.

Bebe in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania wants to know, can you mention a few Psalms that have been

of specific, unique importance to you when going.

Through times of despair?

Really all of them at different times.

Kids were young.

I was often filled with a lot of fear and anxiousness

and really

identified with.

And times when I was in

despair, I related to those.

You know, I really appreciated

Psalm 142.

I plead for mercy.

I pour up my complaint before him.

I tell my trouble.

My spirit faints within me.

You know my way.

Just gives me great hope knowing that, I mean, even before I am crying out, he

already knows been in sovereign care.

And I also

appreciate 88 with a

lament, but it's a bit different than the rest of them because it's a

positive note where most of them do end in a positive note.

It ends with darkness is my only friend.

There was a season because much

light at the end of the tunnel,

you know, gave me peace knowing that

things are just really, really horrible.

And I can't imagine them getting better.

And knowing that even though

I didn't achieve

redeemed, even when I

couldn't respond with joy that taking my prayers

and changing them and redeeming them for God's glory.

And I would mention that one as well.

Well, Bibi, you are also receiving a free.

Copy of A Heart Set Free, A Journey to Hope Through the Psalms of Lament.

And we have another anonymous listener and it is okay to be anonymous.

If some of the psalmists were anonymous, I guess we can allow you to be anonymous.

But we have an anonymous listener who says, I agree with you that when we go through suffering

on this earth, it is not always because of wicked deeds that we have committed.

But wouldn't you have to say that at times this is certainly the case as it was with David,

whose baby from Bathsheba died as a result of

chastisement from his wickedness by having an adulterous relationship with

Bathsheba and also having her husband, Uriah, murdered on the.

Battlefield?

Yes.

I mean, Hebrews makes it clear that the Lord disciplines the one he loves.

So those of us who are, if we have

sinned, will be for our

transformation

and holiness

lament over

the sin the way that David did when he

repented and

prayed out to God and we can do the same thing.

Yes.

And when we are going through some kind of dark,

really deeply painful trial, wouldn't you agree that we should be asking God,

if we are blind to something that we are unrepentant of,

to reveal it to us.

Lord, please show me what I have done that might incur your chastisement in

this harsh manner and so on.

Because obviously we are all sinners, we sin every day and

there may be times when we are just totally overlooking something in our life or we are just burying it

intentionally trying to hide from the fact that this is something that we love

doing but is.

Displeasing to God.

I have a chapter on confession in the book because sometimes

painful emotions we experience

are kind of

the spirit

prompting us.

Sometimes, too, we may be in a trial that was caused by someone else.

You know, someone sinned against us and that caused us pain, but then sometimes our responses to what

happened to us can be sinful.

Yes.

And then that kind of situation becomes kind of blurred, like a mixture

of someone sinning against us.

Spirit them and find them, but I think that is the work to help us

see what part is ours.

Yes.

In fact, I am reminded again of Aaron in Indianapolis,

Indiana's question about when we cross the line from

offering our grievances up to God and when we wind up being involved in self pity.

I know firsthand with my own life, especially when my

past sin of alcohol addiction that God thankfully delivered me from,

I can recall that feeling sorry for myself

gave me, in my own mind, a seal of approval.

The fact that I was going through some kind of a trial gave me a seal of

approval to sin, in my mind, of course.

I didn't really have a seal of approval to sin, but it might have been wrong for

other people to get inebriated and to dull their senses.

It might be wrong for them, but I'm the one going through some problems here, so I need to

imbibe to excess in order to kill the pain.

That's a dangerous place that people can find themselves in, even Christians, when

there are circumstances in life that may be causing them sorrow, grief, and pain.

They'll use that as an excuse to sin because they think that they deserve it.

They deserve to get away with that sin.

They deserve to indulge themselves and so on.

They think that God will somehow wink an eye at it because of what

we're going through, but we can wind up committing some even more severe

sins and wind up hurting others as well as a result.

That's true, true.

And by the way, to you who also have chosen to remain anonymous, if you would

please send us your, or send me, I should say, your name

and address, you have won our final book, our final copy of A Heart Set

Free, A Journey to Hope Through the Psalms of Lament by Christina Fox.

And I promise I will not reveal your identity on the air.

If you would like to get this free copy, just send me an email with your full name and address and you will

get that, God willing, within a week or so from Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs

.com, cvbbs .com.

I'd like you now, Christina, to have five minutes or so just to give your

own summary of what you most want to be etched in the hearts and minds of our

listeners today, especially in regard to this book that you've written, A Heart Set Free, A

Journey to.

Hope.

Through the Psalms of Lament.

Well, it's called a journey because that's what it is.

When a particular psalm seems that it's

wrapped up nice and neat and very upset and in despair, and by the

end he's praising God and he's confident God has saved

him or rescued him, we don't see the process he went through to

get to that point.

It took much longer than it did for us to read it for him to get there.

And the same is true for us that walking through our emotions is a journey and it

takes, and it's one that we go through, but the

Psalms give us a path.

We learn that pattern and each and every time that we feel

overwhelmed by this life, that

closer to God and closer

that

he's free

in

what

he's

done

and he still might be in

that faithfulness and that he's there

and the psalmist wrote, you know, joy will come in the morning.

Amen.

We do have one more.

Anonymous listener who says, I understand that Christina is a counselor.

Do you have any websites or contact information in regard to finding

counseling?

That's hard because there's so.

Many different from, but

the CCEF is a good organization to go through their website.

And of course you could go to ChristinaFox .com and you can communicate with Christina

personally in regard to, she might be able to fine -tune that

answer depending upon where you live.

And CCEF, Christian Counseling and Educational Foundation in Glenside, Pennsylvania,

their website is ccef .org, ccef

.org, if you'd like to look up that.

And of course, I want to repeat Christina's website, ChristinaFox .com,

ChristinaFox .com, and there's no e at the end of Fox, just in case you're wondering.

And Christian Focus Publications, who provided the free copies of Christina's

books today that we gave away, their website is christianfocus .com,

christianfocus .com.

And Christina, it's been a pleasure having you on the program today and I hope that you can return to Iron

Sharpens Iron at some point in the near future and we can discuss.

Perhaps another book you've written.

Thank you, Chris.

I appreciate it.

I enjoyed it.

Great.

Well, God bless you, sister, and let's keep in touch.

Thank you.

All righty.

And I hope that you who are listening don't go away because we have coming up any

moment now our second guest, Joe Thorne, who is pastor of

Redeemer Fellowship in St. Charles, Illinois, and he's the author of a number of

books, host of the Doctrine and Devotion podcast.

We're going to be discussing the character of the church coming up at the top of the second

hour of the broadcast.

And so we hope we hear from you soon.

And our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com is the email address.

And please give us your first name, your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the

good old USA.

And of course, if you have to remain anonymous because of a personal and private matter that you're

writing about, we will honor your request.

But if you can, please at least identify yourself by first name, city, state and country.

Don't go away.

We're going to be right back with Joe Thorne on the character of the church right after these messages from

our sponsors.

I'm Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And here's one of my favorite guests, Todd Friel, to tell you about a conference he and I are going to.

Hello, this is.

Todd Friel, host of Wretched Radio and Wretched TV and

occasional guest on Chris's show.

Iron.

Criticizing Iron.

I think I think that's what it's called.

Hoping that you can join Chris and me at the G3 conference in Atlanta, my new

hometown.

It is going to be a bang up conference called the G3 conference

celebrating the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation with Paul Washer,

Steve Lawson, D .A. Carson, Votie Bauckham, Conrad and Bayway, Phil Johnson, James White and a bunch of other people.

We hope to see you there.

Learn more at G3 conference dot com.

G3 conference dot com.

Thanks, Todd.

I think.

See you at the.

Iron Sharpens Iron exhibitors booth.

Thriving Financial is not your typical financial services provider.

As a membership organization, we help Christians be wise with money and live generously every day.

And for the fourth year in a row, we were named one of the world's most ethical companies by the Atmosphere

Institute, a leading international think tank dedicated to the creation, advancement and sharing of best

practices in business ethics.

Contact me, Mike Gallagher, financial consultant

at 717 -254 -6433.

Again, 717 -254 -6433 to learn more about the Thriving.

Difference.

A new faith, finances and

generosity.

That's the Thriving Story.

I am Chris Arnsen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, here to tell you about an exciting offer from World

Magazine, my trusted source for news from a Christian perspective.

Try World at no charge for 90 days and get a free copy of R .C. Sproul's book,

Relationship Between Church and State.

I rely on World because I trust the reporting.

I gain insight from the analysis.

And World provides clarity to the news stories that really matter.

I believe you'll also find World to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's

simply not found in other media outlets.

Armed with this coverage, World can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.

This trial includes biweekly issues of World Magazine, on -scene reporting from World Radio

and the fully shareable content of World Digital.

Simply visit wng .org forward slash Iron Sharpens

to get your World trial and Dr. Sproul's book all free, no obligation with no credit

card required.

Visit World News Group at wng .org forward

slash Iron Sharpens today.

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am I now seeking the approval of man or of God, or am I trying

to please man?

If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, Pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a Reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostle's priority, it must not be ours either.

We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man, and to be

vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and

love.

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750, that's 508 -528

-5750, or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our TV

program entitled, Resting in Grace.

You can find us at providencebaptistchurchma .org, that's providencebaptistchurchma .org,

or even on sermonaudio .com.

Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Chris.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen, if you just tuned us in.

Our second guest today for the last hour of the program is Joe Thorne, no

stranger now to Iron Sharpens Iron listeners.

He is the lead pastor of Redeemer Fellowship in St. Charles, Illinois, the author of

Note to Self, the Discipleship of Preaching to Yourself, and Experiencing the Trinity,

the Grace of God for the People of God.

He's also a contributor to the ESV Men's Devotional Bible, the ESV

Story Bible, and the Mission of God Study Bible.

And he's host of a podcast exploring Christian faith and practice from a Reformed Baptist

perspective titled, Doctrine and Devotion.

And he is going to be addressing now for the second hour of the program, the character of the church.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens Iron again, Pastor Joe Thorne.

Joe.

Thanks so much for having me back, Chris.

Hey, it is my pleasure.

And I am so thrilled that that you and my dear friend, Dr. James R.

White of Alpha Omega Ministries have finally met and that you spoke together at a conference in New

Zealand.

And it's actually one of those speaking topics that you addressed that was the inspiration

behind our topic today.

If you could tell us about that conference in New Zealand that you just returned to the States from.

Chris.

Well, listen, on the dividing line today, James was wearing the

Doctrine and Devotion t -shirt that Jimmy and that's the t -shirt for the podcast that Jimmy and I co

-host.

So James is down with Doctrine and Devotion.

It's pretty cool.

The conference was an Acts 29 conference, and Acts 29 is a church planting network.

It's a global church planting network that our church is a part of.

And so they put on this conference in New Zealand, and it was all on ecclesiology or the doctrine of the church.

And so it was a combination of Acts 29 and Reformed Baptist, and it was

a diverse gathering of churches, like people from all these different churches.

We had assemblies of God and Charismatic and all these people all come to hear the truth preached

and to have good fellowship.

It was an amazing time in Wellington, New Zealand, where those earthquakes just happened, actually.

Jeff.

Wow, there were earthquakes in New Zealand?

Chris.

Yeah, a seven point something on the Richter.

Jeff.

Did you feel them while you were there?

Chris.

No, they just happened like yesterday.

Jeff.

Oh, okay.

Well, praise God that you were spared of that.

Now, obviously, we have had you do this before, but people are scratching their heads

hearing Acts 29 because it doesn't appear in their own Bibles, if you could explain that.

Chris.

Yes, it's in the Apocrypha.

So just have them open up their Roman Catholic Bibles.

Jeff.

Well, actually, it would probably be in the Gnostic Gospels.

Chris.

Global churches, it's made up of churches all around the world, and these churches are committed to planting

more churches.

It's Reformed, it's Baptist, and they call themselves Acts 29, or we

call ourselves Acts 29, because as most of your listeners know, the book of Acts ends

in chapter 28, and so by calling our network Acts 29, we just want to kind of say, like, this is

God.

He continues to be at work in the church and the world, and we're just one small

part of God's continuing work.

Jeff.

Oh, and by the way, just before I forget, I do want to announce to our listeners, since we were talking about our mutual friend

James White, his daughter, Summer, is going to be my guest, God willing, this

Friday for the full two hours.

Summer White, who is a part of a podcast called Sheologians,

and you don't have to get filled with anxiety about this.

She is not a feminist.

In fact, I think that's one of the watchwords of the Sheologians

podcast and ministry is that they are opposing the

encroachment of feminism into the evangelical church.

But I think that you will all be blessed by hearing Summer's testimony and what she is doing today,

entering into the arena that her father has become both

famous and infamous in his participation, because not only does he have a lot

of very loyal friends, loved ones, brothers, and followers, but he

also has quite a number of enemies as a result of standing up for the truth in

the midst of a world filled with falsehood.

So I think if you're really loudly and aggressively and

especially globally proclaiming the truth, you are going to be

getting enemies.

There's no way that you could be a friend to everyone if you are really

unwaveringly speaking the truth with the audience as large as James White.

There's no way that you could walk away from that without gaining some enemies.

That's right.

My wife really enjoys Summer's podcast and ministry, so

yeah, I'm looking.

Forward to it.

Great.

Well, as we have already said, we are going to be

discussing the distinctives of the church.

Five distinctives of the church were the character of the church, and the first is the right preaching of the

scriptures.

If you could explain further on that, because obviously everybody

who is a pastor thinks they are rightly preaching the.

Scriptures.

That doesn't mean they are.

Right.

Yeah.

Before we even say that, if I can, I just want to kind of impress upon people that I

really don't view these as my opinion.

In fact, there's nothing new here, but that you don't just get to make up what your church is.

The local church, any local church, either is healthy and biblical, or it is

not, or it's a variation of it, and there has to be some constituent element that actually make a church a

church, in the view, you know, from God's perspective.

And the way that I see it, and really this is reflected in the Reformed tradition, really, largely anyways,

is that there are certain things that have to be there, and one of them is the right preaching of the Word.

And the right preaching of scripture, it's not

necessarily an inspiring message or some kind of sit -on -a -stool, not that that's wrong, and talk to

people, and it's not that it's not motivational speaking.

Good preaching may be very motivational and practical and all of that, but really what the

right preaching of the Word is, is that a particular passage

is stood and communicated to the people.

The truth and theology in that text are communicated well, where the relevant

implications of that passage and of those truths and applications are being made known,

and that it is ultimately drawing the listeners to see the Gospel of Jesus more clearly.

So it's a long way of saying that we rightly preach the Word when we have a good

theology derived from the Word, derived from a particular text that is applied to the audience in such a way

that they see Jesus.

And do you think, because there is differences of opinion on this, do you think

that preaching should be done where,

even if you have a small congregation and you know the folks there, you

should not really take it for granted that everybody there is truly regenerate?

Because there are people who may be very clever at disguising

their unregenerate heart.

Yeah, I think there's always the possibility of pretenders.

I think it's more likely that some people are just deluded themselves and think that they are believers, when in

fact they aren't.

And much of that in a lot of Baptist churches is the Baptist church's fault because of the way that they practice evangelism

and preaching to begin with.

You know, we just tell people, if you pray this prayer and meet it in your heart, then you're okay with Jesus.

That's just not how it works.

Yeah, that's obviously a heretical concept that has developed.

Throughout the evangelical church, not just Baptist.

Yeah, it's the 20th century sacrament, right?

That evangelical sacrament.

If you do this, then you are okay.

Your sins are washed away.

So people think, like, oh, I did this thing, so I'm okay now with Jesus, and they're coming to church.

So I think yes.

I think when we're preaching the gospel, when we're preaching to the congregation, we should always be working with the

text in order to make the gospel plain and applied.

And so whether you have one non -Christian or no non -Christians in your church

service, you should still be preaching the gospel and making the appeal for people to draw near to Christ through faith and repentance.

Because that's the message that I need to hear every week, and I do know the Lord by His grace.

But I agree, it's very likely that in any church, you have people that don't

know Jesus that maybe think that they do or are playing some kind of a game.

More than likely, I think that they just don't know that they don't know.

Right.

I mean,.

You even have examples from church history where pastors, like Abraham

Kuyper was a pastor when he.

Realized he was lost and needed a Savior.

Right.

Elias Keech, Benjamin Keech of America, wasn't a believer,

but passed himself off as a preacher and preached his dad's sermons as if they were his own.

And while preaching one of his dad's sermons, he was converted.

Wow.

Wow.

I wonder, now that wasn't the same.

I heard of a person from history who would get

up in public and mock the Lord by preaching in what he

deemed to be a comical way, and while preaching his own words from his mouth, the Lord

brought him to conviction and he was.

Saved.

I don't know if that's the same.

No, that's not the same guy, but that's great.

I haven't read.

That.

Okay.

And well, yeah, the reason why I said that there's some division amongst Christians on

that issue is that there are some who say that when you're in the confines

of the gathered assembly, that the

responsibility of the pastor is to instruct the saints, and that the

preaching of the gospel to the lost is something that you should be doing in your everyday lives

in evangelism efforts outside of the confines of that assembly.

But from what you've said, that both things should be combined, especially when the text,

if you're being exegetical, expository preaching is part of your

sermons, then you should be preaching the gospel when it calls for it.

Absolutely.

I mean,.

We're preaching, first of all, this whole notion, who are you going to target in worship?

Are you kind of a misnomer of the way that the church growth movement applied that word to

some non -believers?

But, you know, you have seekers.

Do you preach to them?

Do you aim at the non -believers, or do you aim at the congregation?

Do you aim at believers?

And I would say in worship, not just in preaching, but in the whole of it, the target is God.

It is not the people first.

We want to make sure that everything we are doing is pleasing to God.

Think regulative principle, that everything that we're doing is according to scripture, pleasing to God,

and then we can figure out, okay, so now that we've got this established, God targeted, and I'm preaching this

text, who are here, you're going to preach to the

people.

Be present in your church are going to be a mix of

believers and unbelievers, and it may be the vast majority are believers,

a lot more non -believers, both the lost and

the saved.

And one of the things that even you'll.

Have reformed people disagreeing over are the

differences between topical and expository preaching, where you're going verse by verse,

chapter by chapter, and so on.

Do you think that both are completely equally acceptable, or should both

be incorporated into the pulpit of every.

Church, or is it okay to use just one methodology, etc.?

Well, my conviction here is that all preaching

should be the

communication in such a way that makes God known to those who

are hearing, okay?

And so that might be grounded in, you might do that in a consecutive

series of verses, or you may move from one passage in one book on one Sunday to another passage in another

book on the next Sunday.

I think both are expository, whether you're going through a book or you're doing something more thematic, I like that

word, but I think the

majority of the

diet is probably

with a range of topics that you might not otherwise choose.

Amen, that's right.

It prevents hobby -horsing.

Yeah, and I like my horses!

I'll start ranting about all kinds of stuff.

So this keeps me on track, it makes me preach on things that I might not otherwise, and then people can't blame you.

It says that we were predestined, and it says that I'm

going to deal with it.

So I think it's good for that.

I also think that what it does is it teaches the congregation hermeneutics, because

you're not popping around from book to book and genre to genre, you're showing them how to interpret epistles as you're

going through that letter, or you're teaching them how to interpret poetic literature when you're in Proverbs.

So I think it's helpful on a lot of different levels, but you have to go, I think you have to go

thematic at some point, because you want to teach on doctrines like the Trinity.

You want to teach a series, say, on the Ordo Salutis, or the Order of Salvation.

And so to do those kind of systematic theology sermons or series, you have to go

thematic.

And so what we do is we usually go Old Testament, thematic New Testament, thematic Old Testament.

We do series like that at our church.

Yes, and it not only prevents the

Arminian from avoiding Calvinistic passages, it prevents hyper

-Calvinists from avoiding passages like Joshua 24 15,.

Choose this day whom whom you will serve, and so on.

It makes us odd.

Right, and the thing that.

Calvinists have to remember, especially new Calvinists who are in that, as they call them,

cage stage Calvinists, who have a tendency towards hyper -Calvinism,

that men are commanded to decide and to choose.

The issue is, can they do that from an

unregenerate, dead, lifeless soul?

Does it require the regeneration of the Holy Spirit first?

But that does not mean that we avoid the language of the scripture when it talks about deciding

and choosing and that kind of a thing.

We serve whom we worship, and we have made that

choice.

And of course,

though, even if somebody.

Uses verse -by -verse exposition as their model, if they are so

bent on promoting their aberrant teaching, they will just pour eisegetical

twisting of the scriptures into their sermons, because they may be able to find

a prohibition of women wearing slacks wherever you look in the Bible, or whatever the case

may be.

Yeah, a bad preacher can do damage to any method of preaching.

Yes, and by the way, I want to repeat our email address if you'd like to join us on the air with a

question for our guest Joe Thorne.

It's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

We have Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York, who says, Is it

idolatrous for an unbeliever to say that they won't attend a church because

another body of believers has hurt them in some way?

I'm not really sure that that would be isolated to unbelievers saying that.

I think that believers can go through those seasons of life where they're saying the same thing.

But if you could comment on that.

Yeah, well, you know, diagnosing it as idolatry is a pretty specific thing,

so is it wrong, I think, just might be the better question.

Is it wrong to say, I'm not going to go to church because I got burned by the church?

Well, it's certainly, it's unwise.

Yes, it's wrong.

It's not a really well -thought -out response to the problem or to the abuse that you suffered,

because not all churches are the same.

Churches are different.

Pastors are different.

Christians are different.

And you might go to a doctor and have a really bad experience, but you don't write off all doctors.

You say, that doctor was a quack.

I'm not going back to that guy.

I'm going to find a good doctor, and I'm going to go to that person who's going to be able to help properly diagnose me and help me get healthy.

It's the same with the church.

You know, you've got bad churches, and unfortunately, I think most churches, if you're just talking buildings and assemblies, most of them aren't good,

and most of them aren't healthy.

There's a huge range of quote -unquote churches that, you know, if you throw a dart, you're

not likely to hit a good one.

You're going to have to do some research.

So I would say you have to first determine, what do

I need to flourish as a believer, if you're talking to a Christian?

And in that case, the Scripture has told us you need the preaching of the Word, you need the administration of the ordinances,

you need the communion of the saints, you need all of these things.

Otherwise, you can't be and do who you're supposed to be and do.

And for your non -Christian friends, the issue is less whether or not they should be going

to church.

The issue is, what are they going to do

within their need?

People who are not believers,

bringing them to church, getting them...

Right.

I often

tell people

when they are saying that they.

Refuse to go to church because they know that there are hypocrites in church, they see

what televangelists do on television, and then they're sickened by it.

They see or have experienced some kind of harsh or unbiblical treatment

at a specific church.

I always remind them, well, just because there was a Judas doesn't give you the right to

reject Jesus.

Right.

And you could even say the same thing, just because there was a Judas, you can't reject Paul

and Peter and James.

We often use things like that as an excuse, just

as I was even mentioning to my first guest, Christina Fox, that I

know even in my own life, when it came to a period of sinful

abuse of alcohol, to the point of being a really scandalous level of

alcoholism, you think that because you have been hurt or you are

experiencing some kind of a painful trial, that it gives you a

free pass to sin, at least for a season in your mind, you may think, because you deserve that.

You deserve to be able to do that because you've been hurt, and people think that they can actually

disobey Christ's commands in the Word of God.

To not forsake the assembling of the brethren and so on.

And the ironic thing in all of this is that, you know, you've been burned, you've been hurt by someone else, but now because

of the path that you're going down, you are hurting yourself, you're afflicting yourself.

You think that you're finding comfort in your sin or in your refusal to do what you know you're supposed to

do, but instead you're just making it worse for yourself in the long run.

We are going to go through some of the other character traits of the church when we return from our break.

This is our final break.

If you'd like to join us, please email us at chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

Chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

Don't go away, we will be right back with.

Joe Thorne.

Linbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Linbrook, Long Island, is teaching God's timeless truths in

the 21st century.

Our church is far more than a Sunday.

Worship service.

It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement.

It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing.

We're a diverse family of all ages, enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship, play, and

together.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can

be.

Call Linbrook Baptist.

At 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599

-9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org.

That's linbrookbaptist .org.

Chris Arnson here and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia and here's my friend Dr.

James White to tell you why.

Hi, I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

I hope you join me at the G3 Conference hosted by Pastor Josh Bice and Praise Mill Baptist Church at

the Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta January 19th through the 21st in

celebration of the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation.

I'll be joined by Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, D .A. Carson, Vody Balcom, Conrad M. Bayway,

Phil Johnson, Rosaria Butterfield, Todd Friel, and a host of other speakers who are dedicated to the

pillars of what G3 stands for, gospel, grace, and glory.

For more details go to g3conference .com.

That's g3conference .com.

Thanks, James.

Make sure you.

Greet me at the Iron Sharpens Iron exhibit booth while you're there.

Thriving Financial is not your typical financial services provider.

As a membership organization, we help Christians be wise with money and live generously every day.

And for the fourth year in a row, we were named one of the world's most ethical companies by the Ethisphere

Institute, a leading international think tank dedicated to the creation, advancement, and sharing of best

practices in business ethics.

Contact me, Mike Gallagher, Financial Consultant

at 717 -254 -6433.

Again, 717 -254 -6433 to learn more about.

The Thriving Difference.

We know so much more than

faith, finances, and generosity.

That's the Thriving Story.

Hi,

I'm Chris Arnsen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, here to tell you about an exciting offer from World

Magazine, my trusted source for news from a Christian perspective.

Try World at no charge for 90 days and get a free copy of R .C. Sproul's book,

Relationship Between Church and State.

I rely on World because I trust the reporting, I gain insight from the analysis, and World provides

clarity to the news stories that really matter.

I believe you'll also find World to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's

simply not found in other media outlets.

Armed with this coverage, World can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.

This trial includes bi -weekly issues of World Magazine, on -scene reporting from World Radio,

and the fully shareable content of World Digital.

Simply visit wmg .org forward slash iron sharpens

to get your World trial and Dr. Sproul's book all free, no obligation with no credit card

required.

Visit World News Group at wmg .org forward

slash iron sharpens today.

I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

The New American Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study.

Used by pastors, scholars, and everyday readers, the NASB is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable

Bible translation.

The NASB offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages which the NASB is known

for.

The NASB is available in many editions like a topical reference Bible.

Researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy, the new topical reference Bible includes contemporary

topics relevant to today's issues.

From compact to giant print Bibles, find an NASB that fits your needs very affordably at nasbible

.com.

Trust, discover, and enjoy the NASB for yourself today.

Go to nasbible .com,.

That's nasbible .com.

Tired of bop store Christianity, of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert?

Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship?

And how about the preaching?

Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.

Well, there's good news.

Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience

featuring the systematic exposition of God's word.

And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you.

Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times.

631 -929 -3512.

Or check out their website at wrbc .us.

That's wrbc .us.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns.

And if you just tuned us in, our second guest for the day has been and will

continue to be Joe Thorne.

He is the host of the podcast called Doctrine and Devotion, as well as the pastor

of Redeemer Fellowship in St. Charles, Illinois, author of a number of books.

We are discussing the character of the church, and we're going through some specific character

traits of the church.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

I do want to remind you about this free offer from World

Magazine.

If you'd like to subscribe to get the free six months of issues

with no obligation, no credit card involved, please go to World News Group's

website.

That's wng, for World News Group, wng .org

forward slash Iron Sharpens, and fill out the subscription

application page there.

And make sure that whenever you hear an ad on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, if you

are patronizing whatever this ad is promoting, please let them know that you heard

about them from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, because we desperately need, or urgently need,

more sponsors to keep Iron Sharpens Iron on the air.

So we would really appreciate you doing that.

And we also appreciate you letting us know when you are aware of a church,

parachurch, ministry, or business that may want to sponsor our program, or if you or someone you know

may want to just donate to Iron Sharpens Iron, we now have a

page on the Iron Sharpens Iron website where you can do that, where it gives the address and

so on, where you can mail a check.

That's ironsharpensironradio .com.

And as I said, we're interviewing right now Joe Thorne.

Before we return to some of the character traits of the church, I want you to tell our listeners a bit about the

podcast that you host,.

Doctrine and Devotion.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, if I don't make this clear, I'm going to get in trouble with all the listeners on the interwebs,

because I am not the host, I'm the co -host.

There are two of us on that thing.

Okay.

It's me, Joe Thorne, and Jimmy Fofo Fowler.

We host this thing together, and it has been going on for, how many, how long has it been going on, Jimmy?

So about three months old, and we focus on theology and

really, kind of the experiential aspect of theology.

We're not teaching, we're not really preparing at all, we just pick a topic and

we say, all right, let's talk through this topic, as we would if we were just sitting around and

having a good time.

So that's what we do, and people really like it.

We've seen God do some really encouraging things in the listeners' lives through it, and we're having a good time, and it's growing really

fast.

So yeah, you can check it out at DoctrineandDevotion .com.

We are on Twitter and Instagram, at Doc and Devo, and you can find us on Facebook

at Doctrine and Devotion.

As well.

And the word end is spelled out fully, it's DoctrineandDevotion .com.

Yeah.

And right off the bat, on their website, I see some controversial topic about women's ministry,

so there you go.

That will always start some interesting conversations amongst brothers in Christ, especially if they're Calvinists.

And we are now in your list of character traits of the

Church.

We are now up to the proper administration of the ordinances,.

If you could explain a little further.

Well, you know, as Protestants, we believe that there are two ordinances given to the Church by Jesus Christ, that of

baptism and the Lord's Supper.

And these are gifts, these are graces to be received by faith,

and so we want to make the most of them, baptism being the immersion of a confessing

believer in water, in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

This typically marks the beginning of his or her Christian life, though these days, oftentimes it doesn't happen

until quite a bit later, just because of the nature of... just because of the confusing nature of

Christian life in post -Christian America.

Some people are getting baptized later and later.

But it is, you know, baptism is a symbol of our union with Christ, it is a symbol of our

cleansing from sin through Christ's death, it is a

symbol of our being buried with Him and being raised up again.

Testimony, it is essentially a confession of Christ as Lord, and it is a preaching

of the Gospel, really, visually.

This itself doesn't

accomplish anything in us, but it proclaims what God has done for us, and

as it is received by faith, it does become a means of grace, a means of our sanctification,

and to really administer baptism for us simply means that

we believe it is a sign and symbol of the Gospel, of the New Covenant, and that it.

Is to be received by those who believe.

And we do have RJ in White Plains, New York, who asks, how do I get...

How can I convey to my friends who reject the

importance of baptism and the Lord's Supper, because they

say, since they are non -salvific, it really doesn't matter.

If we are baptized or take the Lord's Supper?

Right, so they're saying, since baptism doesn't.

Save them, they don't have to do it?

Yes, and that's the same excuse that a lot of people.

Use for not attending church at all to begin with.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Why not?

I mean, prayer doesn't save us either.

We shouldn't pray.

I agree with them.

No praying.

Let's not pray.

Let's not sing, because that doesn't save us.

Let's not...

I think, let's just not do any of these things.

I'm going to offense, but that's just a dumb argument.

I would just tell them, this is a dumb argument.

Just because it doesn't save you, that's not the point.

The point is that these are means of God's grace by which we experience God's power

in our life, by which He changes us.

If we want to

draw near

to God and experience like

they're

interested in

going back in, they use

this as an excuse.

Right, and there are people who use that as

an excuse to really.

Tarry or wait to really give a public

declaration of their commitment to Christ, which may mean that they're not even saved to begin with.

If they are embarrassed to publicly identify with Christ in baptism or by receiving

the Lord's Supper, if they really do not want to stand before men and show them

that this is indeed their life's commitment to follow Christ, there could be a lot more

serious issues going on under the surface.

You know, you have the one extreme where people like to flaunt

a badge of honor that they think that they are demonstrating to

those around them that, look how holy I am, I'm being baptized or I'm receiving the Lord's Supper, but then you have those on the

other extreme who really don't want others to see them publicly making that kind of a

commitment because they really aren't saved to begin with.

And I get that there's confusion about the doctrine of baptism, because so many churches today

don't make much of a big deal about it.

We talk about membership and all of that, but when you see in Scripture that Jesus

commands you to be baptized, as a believer, you will be compelled.

And it doesn't mean that you're not going to be nervous or a little, you know, frightened or uneasy about it.

It's weird.

I mean, if you're not, especially if you didn't grow up in the Church, but you will be compelled to do so, and I

think we've got to take these seriously.

And the Lord's Supper is another one.

I mean, the Lord's Supper that I find, even a lot of Reformed churches,

they'll celebrate the Lord's Supper maybe monthly.

The Scripture doesn't tell us that we have to do it every week that we gather,

but it is the only element in worship that we are prescribed to carry out

that we somehow come up with a reason to not do every Sunday.

It's like we agree, like we're supposed to be singing every Sunday, we're supposed to pick up an offering every Sunday.

You know the offering's not going to go quarterly.

We're going to do the preaching of the Word, the reading of the Word, all these things every week, but when it comes to the Lord's Supper, eh,

once a month.

Yeah, I happen to agree.

With you on that one.

I think that there is compelling evidence from the practice of the early Church that we should do it

every week from what the Scriptures themselves teach.

I agree.

And, well, obviously these issues, though, about what is taking place at the

Lord's Supper and baptism, they still to this day, and will always

until we're in heaven, create some kind of division amongst our brothers

and sisters in Christ who take a different approach.

Obviously the biggest division amongst Reformed believers is those who believe in infant baptism

and those who believe in credo or believer -only baptism.

Right.

And, but that does not mean that we reject these as not being our brothers in Christ or view them

as heretics or as being lost,.

Am I right?

Of course, of course.

They're some of the most theologically robust and gospel -rich Church,

and so we don't reject them because of their view

on baptism.

We just reject their view of baptism, just like they reject ours.

Right.

But we're brothers, and listen, I'm a Baptist, a Reformed Baptist, so I look up, and they've

been at it longer than I have been.

And I do have a word to those people who are going to a Baptist

Church who are putting off getting baptized because of a fear of

being dunked under the water, which some people really have.

I think that if they start looking through Fox's book of martyrs and

realize what those who have lived before us risked and even gave their lives

just to identify with Christ publicly in baptism, I think that you could get over your fear of getting

dunked for a matter of a split second when you know that there are people who have been tortured and

executed.

For doing the same thing in Church history.

I had to baptize, last year I had to baptize a senior.

She's a widow, and she has

not been dunked under water in, like, 30 years or something, and she was really scared.

And so what I would tell people, if you really do have a fear about being baptized, whatever it is, and it's holding

you back, go and talk to your pastor about it.

Just sit on it.

At least go and talk to him and let him know what's up, and if he's a good pastor, he's going to counsel you through this.

He's going to walk you through it.

He's not going to throw you in the tub on Sunday.

He's going to patiently shepherd you through this process so that you can do it and honor the Lord and experience his grace.

And he's not going to.

Immerse you under the water and then read the book of Leviticus before he brings you back up.

Well, it depends on the Baptist Church.

There are some denominations that are a little more strict.

And, well, we move on now.

Obviously, each of these could take more than one two -hour show to go

into the... to plumb to the depths of the topics, but for sake of time, we're obviously

moving on now to the development of biblical leadership.

Yeah, and all of this I cover in...

I have three books coming out next year through Moody, and what we're talking about here will be in the second book called The

Character of the Church.

And so that's where I explore these in a little bit more detail.

When we're talking about leadership in the Church, what I'm thinking of are the two offices established by

Scripture, and that's the office of elder and the office of deacon.

And the office of elder or the ministry of the

pastorate, right?

So here you can think of all the same.

They're just different words emphasizing slightly different functions, but the pastor or

the elder is the one who bears the responsibility for leading and

feeding the congregation.

This is the shepherd, preacher, teacher, and in any healthy church there

will be more than one.

You'll have a plurality of elders working together to bear the weight and the load and

responsibility of this ministry, that is specifically the ministry of the Word and Prayer

for the congregation, and as they speak it's good.

And the main thing, like in our short time, that I would want to say is that in everything that elders are

supposed to be doing in the Church, and there's a lot, the most important thing that I think is being neglected a lot today

is that of shepherding.

Knowing the people, loving the people, walking with the people.

That is the pastor's job, and pastors, you've got to get on that, because that, I mean, you can't just sit in your office and

study.

It's not enough for you to go and preach.

You actually have to actively shepherd people, and that means you've got to know your, you know the sheep.

So that's one thing that I would say about them.

You find the qualifications for elders, of course, in First Timothy 3, and similar to the

qualifications for an elder who has authority and oversight in the

And deacons, while they do not have authority in the Church, they do not exercise oversight, they are set

apart as ministers to the body to meet many of the immediate and practical needs of the body.

And these are people generally appointed to specific responsibilities and

tasks to make sure that the elders can commit themselves to the work they're primarily called to,

while the people of the Church are being cared for in every part of the

Church.

Yes, pastors are not just supposed to be orators, great

orators, who are there to impress everyone with their knowledge.

They have to roll up their sleeves, and like Robert Murray McShane was famous for,

really get involved in the lives of the of the brethren there, and

that they are charged with overseeing.

And I can't remember right now what great man of God said this, but he

said to pastors, you must be shepherds who smell like sheep.

It really escapes my mind right now who said that, but I remember that striking me.

As a very profound statement.

But we move on to the next of the

character traits that you have listed for us, which is the gracious

implementation of Church discipline.

So we've got 10 minutes.

If we divide that up from what's really left, we probably have like three minutes just to cover this one.

So let me say it this way.

Church discipline is usually thought of as a corrective discipline, because that's the primary way

that we talk about it.

Formative, meaning those positive disciplines, the regular, ongoing, teaching,

fellowship, all of that, that forms the Christian's character.

Reformative discipline, which we are typically talking about when we say

members of the Church,

and they need accountability.

They need help.

They don't need punishment in

returning.

And so Church discipline, following the pattern that we see in Matthew 18 and

in 1 Corinthians 5, for members who are in danger,

when we see that, we will appeal to them, try to understand them and

appeal to repentance.

We give them some time, but we will go back again with more than one witness, and we will appeal to them again.

And if they continue to refuse to repent, we will go to them again.

We'll bring it, but if they do not repent, then

we, Apostle Paul, we have to let them go

from the Church.

And it's not just giving them a pass, it's we are excommunicating them and saying,

we need to do an episode on Church discipline.

Yeah, I agree.

I would be more than happy to.

Do another one.

I actually did something, I don't know if anybody else has ever done this, but I did a full two

-hour program on Church discipline with my former pastor on Long Island,

who was one of the elders who put me under discipline.

And so I don't know if anybody has ever done a program where the one who was the disciplinee

interviewed one of his discipliners.

But I wanted to be very open about that part of my past, because

there are people who are running from churches,

not wanting to be disciplined, thinking that will be the end of the road for them in some way, but

the whole point is to restore a brother.

And it might even be a restoration that saves someone's life, let alone

their never -dying soul.

Yeah.

So obviously, in our day and age where

people's feelings seem to be raised to a height far above

their eternal souls is a very problematic situation

that the Church is saturated with.

But yeah, we should do a program on that, because I don't think it could be ever repeated enough.

And last but not least, you have a clear focus on the mission Jesus gave the Church.

Now, this is the one that seems a little out of place for people in the Reformed tradition, not because they disagree with it, but

because they usually aren't talking about this when they talk about the essential elements that make a church a church.

You know, they talk about word, sacrament, or ordinances, leadership, and discipline.

But I think it's important to keep this idea of the mission of the Church on this list, because it is so

easy for our churches today to be off -mission and focused on secondary issues, so much so that they

forget the real reason that they exist, and the real reason the Church is in the world is not to reform cities, it's not

to pass policy in the public schools.

We are in this world to preach the Gospel and make disciples.

And as disciples, we are engaged in politics, we're engaged in feeding the homeless and in doing all these things.

We should be shining examples of God's mercy and work of restoration in the world as disciples, but the mission

that God has given the Church is not social action.

Any kind of social activity, but the

mission is to make disciples of all

nations in all of

life, and we turn them loose, and the Church shines in

the people of God who are doing

those things.

Right.

I gave some friendly warnings to pastors that I know

who I thought were stepping over the boundaries of proper

pastoral guidance or were

really urging, public urging to support Donald Trump

in the last election, and the reason why I think that it could be dangerous

to support a political candidate as a pastor or as a prominent member of a church when you are

publicly identifying the Church with a specific candidate, even if that person

is not even known to be a regenerate individual.

What you're doing is you're creating a scenario where even if this is the better candidate,

you're going to have the world sitting back and saying, okay, this is your hero

that is supposed to rescue us from this horrible situation we're in.

What are you going to do now?

Let's see what happens.

What's going to happen now?

And if this person turns out to be scandalous or a huge failure, and when you have with the same

enthusiasm that you spread the gospel with, promoted a specific

candidate, I think that that could have disastrous consequences.

Yes, our message is

not charismatic.

What I have

is, I'm like one of the

few people like, yeah, it's going to be okay.

I'm sure there'll be some downs and some ups.

Nobody's going to save this country.

Nobody's going to save this country, and nobody's going to single -handedly ruin this country.

We've been on a sweet for some time

now, and I anticipated that.

Make sure that as the Church, we're focused on the mission that God has given us,

make disciples, and be prepared.

Yes, and pray for President Trump, President -elect Trump right now, because he

obviously has the ear of a lot of evangelicals

around the United States, and they have his ear, more importantly.

Evangelicals he knows helped elect him, so he

may possibly be, by God's grace.

That is, of course, he may be more willing to listen to what they have to say, and let's pray that

people just don't view him as a celebrity, but actually preach the gospel to him.

And call him unto repentance.

Who knows what God's going to do in the next four years, but what we know we're called to do.

Amen.

Donald Trump is it.

Well, I know that your website is.

Jothorn .net.

That's jothorn with no e at the end dot net, and I really thank you for being a part of the

program.

I look forward to having you back again very soon, Joe.

Thanks, Chris.

Really appreciate it.

It's always fun.

And I want everybody out there listening to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater

Savior than you are a sinner.

I look forward to receiving your questions for our guests tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

God bless.