Melissa Dougherty: How A Cult Got Me Out Of The New Age

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00:00

Alright welcome back ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the cults.

00:05

My name is Jeremiah Roberts I'm one of the co -hosts here I'm gonna introduce you all to our guest here in just a second some of you if you're watching

00:12

YouTube You might be familiar with her but for first and foremost I am joined by Andrew the super sleuth of the show up in Harriman, Utah They get it.

00:22

That's not it. Okay. Good job Yeah, and your your voice is sounding really silky smooth today

00:30

I don't know. Are you drinking like something good over there like some alpha brain or something brain? It's basically it's us.

00:36

It's sanctified DMT and was I'm just kidding It's a it's a nootropic. I use sometimes

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I take that take it supposed to help with brain function cognitive ability and all that because we're gonna be doing a podcast want to have clear thinking

00:51

I guess so Sometimes like to sip on that just kind of have a good amount of focus, but I Andrew it's uh, it's

00:58

Kate Casey still has not had the baby yet. Has she that's correct. She's 40 weeks and six days pregnant

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Maybe by the time this airs. I'll have my second son third child second son

01:10

So yeah, we'll see and just notice just you know to Andrews little set that you see there it's actually in one of the little rooms inside of his apartment in up in Harriman, Utah and So who knows if you have to jump up real quickly?

01:25

Given the circumstance will understand and I'll be I'll try and carry the conversation by myself that happens. But anyways, we are here and joined by Melissa Doherty you did good.

01:35

I did it good It took a while. I used to put your last name, but you know

01:40

Yeah, it was partially my fault though, too, because I never corrected you and I liked a lot Doherty right, but then

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Daughtry. Yes, it sounds cooler. So yeah Yeah, but it's good to have you back this is your third time here yeah, and so you've been here twice once with dream virtue and we were talking about the

02:02

Bethel in the New Age and then we had the one it's crazy to think about it's been almost two years since right on the very the birth pangs of 2020 and the pandemic and all that we did it right in March when

02:15

Trump declared a state of emergency And I think we were here in this. Yes, and I'm like what's happening? How am I gonna I know?

02:20

I was I was looking at my work and at the time I was working at Costco and I was looking at just the lines Like all 12 registers were open as before any of the mask mandates and it is just packed full of people

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Just you know, just throwing whatever they couldn't the cards It was nuts, but we survived like and even as crazy too because I remember we're at the one restaurant for peaks brewing

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And you're looking on your phone It was a Steven was here and you were like you're looking at your phone wondering if I'm gonna have to rent a car

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Oh, yeah, how am I gonna get home? That was the thing nothing happened. Yeah, everything was fine. The plane got delayed like two hours we were inside the plane and it was stuck on the on the runway and it was

02:58

It was not it was not the yeah, it was not the best time But yeah, it was great content though talking about the

03:05

Word of Faith movement. And that was that was really good. I was actually what we talked about the

03:12

Substance of the conversation. It was really good Yeah, so just real quick it for anyone who doesn't know you just kind of tell them just a little about your like what you

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Do like what you're all about and kind of like areas of pack We're gonna talk about some topics. That is really your story

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Which a lot of your story is how you got to where you are today But you can't tell them but you've got a YouTube channel and just tell them some things you're passionate about Just tell us a little bit of what you're all about.

03:34

Yeah, so I do have a YouTube channel It's my name Melissa Doherty And yeah,

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I cover things like apologetics which is like defending the faith I'm an ex New Ager, which we'll get into like how that all happened and I Like to cover theology

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New Age in the church is something I'm really passionate about That's one of the things that we talked about before here on the podcast

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Because that's that's happening and that's something we have to address and I do a I'm a mixed bag. Yeah, right

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I'm a mixed bag on my channel because you never know what you're gonna find one day I'll probably maybe I'll be doing a painting, you know

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Because I have an art angle to me that I like to express in my ministry and then satire is something

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I really enjoy Yeah, there's a lot of truth that you can use in satire. And then sometimes I do theology. Sometimes I do apologetics

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Sometimes I'll do discernment things. And yeah, yeah, just a mixed bag. Mm -hmm Yeah, and I think the one thing is I really appreciate about is that I think just coming

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We're coming the same boat the recovering, you know Christian apologetics and sometimes we're delving into issues that aren't without its fair share of controversy

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Yes But what I do like is that I think I feel like especially your approach and maybe it's just you

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Just being you is that I think sometimes like you have a very relaxed Relatability where people will look at the content or what you're talking about and it's almost like, you know, some might go in there

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I'm like, I'm not sure I feel about that. Okay, it's what I'm gonna hear out Yeah, I just kind of feel that vibe when

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I watch your videos, which is something I think I appreciate because everyone everyone whether Everyone has can say the same thing talk about the same topic, but in a different way

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I mean I'm gonna talk about something different than Mike winger does or Lisa Childers or you know

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Who or versus you we're all gonna talk about the same topic, but in a different way But I just really like your approach to the topic.

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So I just want to say that also So I'm just curious. Let's just jump into it. So a lot of people may know

05:27

You and your content, you know when you posted the other day, they're they're excited and some people are saying Oh, I love

05:32

I love cultish and all that when I I know when we posted we did the podcast today You know people will be excited because a lot of people in our platform know you

05:39

So they know they I think they know you just through the content that you make But I don't think they know and honestly, there's a lot part

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Why don't we even know I kind of know in passing little little parts of it? But I think you have like a very unique story

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I think there's also a lot of things we can learn about some of the world views that impacted you and how that almost formulated

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You know who you are today But I think also we can just kind of understand You know just sometimes like what what is like for someone like in that mindset?

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Because like Walter Mar would always talk about when you want to find terms When you're talking to you know a cultist or someone that's it isn't is in the new age

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But not just that defined terms, but you want to get an understanding of like what is the real mindset of someone?

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You know We talked about when you dug their episode on mission how to talk to more than missionaries I get inside their mind like what is it like for someone who's 19 years old?

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Who's grown up in this in something that sometimes would just be like I just do it because it's traditional But now

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I'm giving up two years of my life away from my family away from everything. Yes, just in that spot

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What is it really like for someone like to go put yourself in that in their shoes for a second? So I think a lot of what you're gonna share is gonna be very indicative of that Yeah, and it's interesting that you thank you.

06:55

By the way. I appreciate that feedback on how I conduct myself online because it's What you just said kind of brings that back is what it comes down to is empathy

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Empathy is very different than sympathy. If you're if you empathize with someone you're basically Putting yourself in their position and trying to feel like insightfully feeling what they're feeling and I find that when

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I do that I approach people very differently and I cover the content differently, you know so I'm firm, but I'm fair and And a lot of that has to do with My upbringing and and how the all this works and and yeah

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I think people that have followed me on YouTube kind of maybe don't know My whole complete story and it's funny because I I don't know

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I've been doing ministry for years and I've been saying the same story, but My platform has just changed in the last year like you're one of my good friends you

07:50

Jerry Are you Andrew like people in apology, it's like you guys still don't even know from beginning to end

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So it's interesting and for the record. I've had a video up on my channel Called my story and it tells this story.

08:03

Basically. It's my testimony So yeah, I mean I can start from the beginning Yeah, yeah

08:09

Cuz I know well I know the only thing that you've mentioned is that I mean some people may know you from initially When you're on the series

08:15

Bethel in the new age you talked about your example being into into a new thought We'll definitely unravel that and there's levels in which we've had episodes before on Jehovah's Witnesses and those sort of blend together

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But yeah Let's just take just take us back to the beginning and let's just have a conversation Definitely. I'm excited here and we'll just see where this goes.

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Yeah. Yeah, so basically I Grew up in a household.

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It was my mom and I got divorced when I was two and So it was just my mom and this is really important and I want to be careful with how

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I You know Talk about my family for their privacy But the upbringing the spiritual upbringing that I had formed everything to set me up for when

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I was a teenager The catalyst and the examples that I had

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I mean my great -grandparents were Christian scientists Which is very important because a lot of the teachings in that religion

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I grew up hearing but there was also things pulled from other religions That were kind of melded together.

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I would hear stories about Entities beings just appearing in our home and visiting my mother and it was never something she feared but she had no

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Frame of reference for this the church would call her demonic, right, you know And she's like, but I don't know how to make sense of this.

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Nobody could sit down and really explain these things to her. So she understood That there has to be a higher truth to this of a different spirituality something that would give me some sort of traction with what

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I'm experiencing and she basically found this in New Age and New Thought teachings and And these are metaphysical teachings like your thoughts can

09:56

Manifest your reality and I remember specifically things happening as a child That seemed to solidify things that she said.

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I remember one time we were told to Visualize our home what kind of home do you want?

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Mm -hmm, and I still it's him to this day see this home in my head I remember doing this exercise while all three all four of us would visualize

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And I had two sisters so it was me my mom and my sisters and We would visualize this home and we wanted a two -story home with white on the outside blue trim shutters plants on the outside in a driveway lined with trees and a pond in the backyard

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And I remember seeing this every day. My mom comes home crying one day like it's there it exists

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She shows this house and I'm guys. This is the weirdest thing. Okay, so this is how do you at this time?

10:48

I was um, I remember being in sixth grade. Okay, so I think I was 11 12

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Mm -hmm, so old enough to remember this really interesting thing that happened and it solidifies it, right?

10:59

yeah, so you believe in this and you think oh I manifested that like we all put our brainpower together and And manifested this thing into reality and I remember my mom explaining this house and she was so happy to have this house, you know and The irony is that we never ended up buying it

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But I remember this house and so it's just things like that. My mom would see auras colors on people and Every color had a different meaning to it

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There was just so many things that happened during my childhood and I remember being told things like The other dimensions exist now imagine your child for a second

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Okay, and you're told that the things that you imagine actually exist in another dimension.

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You want to fly? Well, that might be able that might be something you can do if you accessed this this other dimension, you know unicorns

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Fairies, you know like these things that we think are imaginary according to Certain laws of the universe so opposedly, you know spiritual laws actually exist in some other dimension, right?

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Now when you're told this as a child and you're told you have this power Basically, you feel like a superhero and you feel like if I could only tap that right tap into that Right, if only

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I could release this power and it reminds me of what we would see in movies like The Chosen One you know, like you're trying to practice and awaken this power and There's a show on Netflix.

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It's called shadow and bone or something like that. There's a book about it Yeah, and it's been out for a while, but it's it's this character.

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She's basically trying to awaken This summoning power and within her to you know

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And like that's the story of us like whenever we're trying to do these things We're trying to awaken this spirituality that we're told is dormant within all of us and that we can awaken it

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So this is kind of the foundation for my childhood like with how I grew up Let me ask you this too because I think it's also in a second

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We should probably define terms and maybe help people understand like new thought agenda We're kind of describing bits and pieces of it but a lot of it has to do with you kind of attract like what you

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What you conceive in your mind you kind of manifest like reality like you're our world is an extension

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It's sort of an outward extension of what's going on inside of your mind Yes, and so but all in there's levels where you know, you'd try and visualize these positive things

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But I think also I think for some people it's a two -way street where not only are you trying to?

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Reflect the positive, you know trying to attract positive thing by your thoughts But then like how do you interpret tragedy or suffering or something that happens when you're disappointed when someone like lets you down?

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Is it then your fault? I'm curious about that like I mean your thoughts in that but also I mean through the mindset of a child like so when you're in 11th grade and like the mindset of you know, just trying to Growing up and developing and kind of figure out even who you are as your person your identity

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Like how did that worldview like affect you like as in like 11 or 12 year old? well,

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I Figured that everybody I Wanted to be like special and that was the thing is that you wanted to kind of be special And so you see everybody you see the world and the irony is is that if you had anybody that was really religious

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They were just kind of closed -minded You know and you saw truth in everything, you know, it was always about finding the what you all had in common and the the tolerance for that which was really really important and that was just something

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I was taught and grew up with and Just assumes and and to point out Okay, so like there's a difference between new age and new thought and let me define this for a minute

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I was more into the new thought okay, so new age is more occultic when I think of new age think of like a

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Kind of like the crystal ball a fortune teller, you know, like you yeah, you think of tarot cards you think of psychics

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And to be sure this is all in her inner intermingled But it's more occult like a new thought goes back to more of like Phineas Quimby in the 1800s

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Age of Enlightenment where the metaphysical Teachings of your mind are extended into reality.

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So and you're thumbing through this book. So this book is really interesting So anyway, you know, we got this former fan sent it to us.

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It's called we have to be careful this from 1916 the master key system. So it has that so it has that nice like vintage like book smell to it

15:29

Smell it just now and it's like I'm like an antique nerd and some people like he's such a weirdo, but um, but yeah

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It's this from 1916 and it's it's interesting too because when you think about new thought and you just skim through it today

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You know a lot of times with what we have It's all sometimes it's subtle where the new a because new age is so inundated now with our culture

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But this book is so like direct and blatant What was the one page you had in there talking about the omniscient?

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Yeah, so we were there and you we have the bookmarks from like sections of the straw from the coffee shop Yeah, you see in this book

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It's actually you say the thing is is that whatever is taught in this book just by skimming through Are the very things that I remember hearing growing up like this is it's not really it's so funny

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They call it new age and new thought there's nothing new about it Like these are the things that have been taught through millennia, but this part this particular portion is in part eight

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Remember, this is a book for like 1900. So it's like yeah, and it's like a set up like a devotional

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But this is what it says when you have become thoroughly conscious of the fact that the mind capital M Because the mind is an active organism in new thought

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The fact that the mind is the only creative principle that it is omnipotent Omniscient and omnipresent and that you can consciously come into harmony with this omnipotence that your power of thought

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Through your power of thought you will take or you will have taken a long step in the right direction

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And that's just one aspect of it so these are the kinds of things where it's like if you can tap into that universal mind if you can

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Find that inner power within yourself. You can do these things, too I remember being told hey if you had enough faith and the faith is seen as like a power

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You could walk through walls. You could be invisible. You could do all these things You could leave your body and visit these other dimensions like that was something was very intriguing to me

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Mm -hmm And so I never really practiced these things though in principle What I did is

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I grew up with this as like the foundation that undergirded everything I believed in So it was the new thought aspect

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It's all the same though because at its core both new age and new thought teach the same thing that you are divine

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At its very core. So that's very important to remember that how you reach that divinity can vary but that's basically what it is and because you can do these things because you can manifest because you can you have this inner power you just have to awaken it and Find how you can harness that so it just reminds me of a lot of Hollywood movies out there sometimes

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But when I went into my teenage years, this is kind of where everything changed.

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Yeah, I was 16 and I didn't really have like this grasp of belief in God I didn't

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I went we went to church, you know, like we went to church sometimes growing up I went to a Presbyterian Church actually growing up.

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Yeah, my mom But that's the thing though is that you can isn't it interesting how you can go to church almost every week and Believe in some garbage sometimes, you know, it's weird

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Yeah, and so I was in a really really dark place and Everything in my life was revolved around everything else and I go into more detail in my video, but one thing that's really important to understand about me at this time was

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I was somebody that really really really craved attention and I don't know if maybe it was just growing up without a dad.

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I'm not sure quite what it was I didn't have like a good strong like connection with my mom growing up Like I think

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I should have so I found that elsewhere with friends, you know, and I became very accustomed to attention.

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So like whatever I could do to get attention. I did it like lying was a big thing my favorite thing to do was to embellish and sensationalize things that were physically wrong with me and People knew you know what?

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I mean, like, you know how you have a friend that kind of just does that like me they're kind of I Don't know a little much and you can kind of call them on that on those things.

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So it's hard to take them. Seriously well, I mean I got to the point where I really ended up hurting somebody and It caused me it just catapulted me into this really really dark place.

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Like I was suicidal. I was contemplating it planning it and I didn't

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I Didn't have anybody to talk to like I was very lonely. I didn't like who I was. I hated who

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I was I didn't like anything about myself and It wasn't I just wanted out

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I wanted a release from this Life that I was and I felt like I was in shackles.

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This is nearly in later teens. I was 16 years old 16 years old. Yeah, okay. I just want to just give one just one thought

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Maybe you can elaborate this because I'm again you mentioned, you know Just being you know 16 and having this worldview of like, you know, you are what you think and never practice it though But that was the foundation the foundation.

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Yeah. Yeah, but I wasn't interested in spiritual things yet. Mm -hmm Yeah, you will you still you still have the you know

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This is the underlying thing that would that you were taught and I think that you know a lot of times and maybe you can Maybe this will be connected to it later on but just in the new age like Stephen talked about it when he was on and that we've had people like Teresa on Who've kind of told their story there?

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There seems to be a precedent in the new age of people sort of putting on a front like everything is okay

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Like I have it together now even at this period, you know, you're not really embracing that spirituality But there is levels in which you're sort of I don't know if it was the case where you're trying to just Be the life of the party or kind of do whatever to put on a face

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But inside you have nowhere to express how you're feeling internally like regarding suicide if that makes sense

21:06

Yeah, so, um, is it kind of like to where when you're when you're a child? It's there's more of like a childlike faith in something you usually take the identity usually of your parents in some type of way but when you're a teenager, you kind of lose some of that and now you're kind of in this this balance between what you've learned before but you're kind of not necessarily into the new thought type of thinking anymore because you're looking for exception and Attention and other and other people by embellishing and doing things of that nature

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So you weren't super spiritual now like you were when you're a kid because kids are very imaginative and they're always you know

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Thinking outside the box, but you're at this specific age now It's kind of like you're in the you're in the middle like you're in this like waiting room almost it sounds like No, I wouldn't say

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I did that. I always believed in God even yeah always believed in God I remember when

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I understood the concept of what a full solar eclipse was Um something about that even at a young child.

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I'm like, that's no accident You know, like there's something like wow, that's too perfect And then

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I remember at a very young age my mother explaining a seed And I heard this Repeated in school as well, you know

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But the way that it was put to me was this tiny little seed has enough information in it to to grow this huge Tree like that was that blew my mind

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That absolutely blew my how can that become that and create more of this? What is in here?

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Yeah, you know what? I mean? So like there was an aspect of Where I could see God in creation.

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That's like Romans one stuff, right? I saw that I wouldn't say I I was fascinated with the beliefs that I grew up with But I I was never at a point where I just put it aside and didn't practice it.

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I Was just more Involved with other things all I cared about were was hanging out with my friends and like acceptance from people.

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That's all I cared about And what however I could do that I would and I remember when

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I'm going through this Dark time. I mean my mom didn't even know about it, but I remember

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Her telling me things about my mind like changing the way I'm thinking So that I can get this outcome and I remember doing that briefly at the beginning of this whole

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Period I was in and it just didn't work I'm like I I try to envision it and it just crumbled like everything

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I envisioned was like the opposite and it was just not good, you know and What ended up happening?

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Was like the coolest thing that's ever happened in my entire life To be honest even to this day looking back on it in hindsight

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It was the weekend and I remember I I Wasn't I don't know if I would have made it like another 24 hours if I'm honest

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Like I even looking back now like it was it was not a good time. I was I knew how

23:59

I wanted to Do myself in? And I remember thinking okay, let's go out, you know kind of in an essence

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I there was many different things going on in my mind at this time, but I'm like, okay Let's go out and I remember going out with my friend because I'm like, you know

24:12

Let's just have fun one last time kind of thing like do something Yeah, and had I not ever gone out with her, you know, you know what

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I mean? You think yeah, you're like had I not done this would this have happened right? I'm out with her and We had a friend and this was in 2003.

24:28

Okay, so like I don't even know if Cellphones, I don't even think text messaging was a thing back then

24:35

Like the the progress of technology is interesting I remember having a pager, but I don't think maybe

24:40

I did have it like a yeah or something I think the only option back and yeah Texting was hard in 2003 because you'd have to you'd have to like a like one twice to go through like a

24:49

B and C's So but I don't think texting was a thing yet because I remember being 19 moving into an apartment like Oh texting

24:55

I remember yeah, I don't but even back when texting was a thing like you it needed to be like really

25:01

Really important if you're gonna send a text you had to like really work hard just to write a sentence It's not like this yeah these kids today they have no idea

25:13

They haven't seen the things we've seen they have not seen You're bringing a great point because I think as you're kind of unraveling this

25:23

I mean like one thank you for like being vulnerable and sharing that yeah But I think when it comes to now and even like what we're all in like that the online world of like apologetics

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We're dealing with like real, you know, we're talking about different worldviews beliefs and comparing them.

25:38

You know, we're doing it unapologetically from a Christian perspective and a Christian worldview and talking about these different other perspectives and But you know behind What we're dealing with our car real people with real struggles and real, you know

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Issues that sometimes in this whole world now like we almost because we only operate through this

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It's almost like we kind of strip the person that we're talking to We completely strip them of their humanity and like we just aside from this

26:11

Facebook profile that you're talking to and tagging to and arguing back and forth like do you know? What struggles are they're having are they're having like mental health issues or are they maybe they're in a spot?

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Where they're they've been like contemplating suicide like and that's just in in general I think in the

26:27

Christian Church, that's still like one of those like taboo things that people are still like Afraid like that. Yeah, I don't know if I want to really want to talk about it but a lot of people a lot more people struggle with that then we realize so I think as there's just a good point to say that we add like even in apologetics and what we deal with like we need to have a lot of Compassion and empathy for the people that we're conversing with Because a lot because even like in regards to cults and cult is

26:54

I mean cultism and in the areas and issues of mental health They go hand in hand As most people most people have gone through stuff.

27:00

That's traumatic But I think that's just something like really important to have an emphasis on Yeah most people want to they want to try to win an argument when they're not really understanding the fact that The gospel is to set somebody free from their sin and the effects of sinner

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Are staggering, you know, it's debilitating to people and if you're trying to just win an argument with somebody in apologetics

27:23

You're not you're not doing it for the right reason whatsoever. You're just you're just a gong Unfortunately, you know, so yeah, you guys are kind of prophetically speaking right now because this is kind of a big issue

27:35

But I'll get to that in a second. I know Josh Lewis is listening He's like Anyways, we love

27:44

Josh. Yeah, so you said so back where you are you are in a place where I'm driving in a car with Your friend with your friend

27:53

And this is important because earlier that night we had gotten a text from a friend of ours a mutual friend and He invited us to this house party and no big deal, but we said no at the time what was

28:07

Very important is that later after I dropped off my friend. I turned my car around and decided to go to this party and I'll never forget this night.

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It was like this 24 hours that transpired after this was I Mean the charismatics would love this like seriously

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It's like that I mean, I'm it was amazing how this all happened But I go in and I remember everything very vividly

28:29

I walk in I see my friend standing there. Okay, he's at a house party Alright, there's people drinking their stuff going on and he's he's very animated.

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He's like insisting on something kind of like almost fighting with with my friend with my other friend who's the owner of the house and he's like Calm down.

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Like I just walked in on that scene I didn't think much of it and I grab a bottle of wine and I remember sitting down on the couch and I'm just Done like I'm just kind of depressed, you know, just kind of contemplating

28:58

Okay, this is my like last few nights like being around people and it didn't really care it was really numb deep dark feeling now to kind of flashback to me growing up the

29:08

Jesus that I heard about growing up was a Jesus of An example of what you could be

29:15

All right, so he was how you tapped into your inner power and we know that we could because that's how Jesus Taught it he was love but but not the type of love that the

29:25

Bible teaches about this is very important Because the sentence that came out of my friend's mouth changed my life

29:31

It was about forgiveness and like I'm sitting there on the couch and he's he's talking to everybody.

29:38

I don't exactly know what he's saying He's talking about God though. I figured right I figured out finally. He's talking to everybody.

29:44

He's talking about God And I remember saying something so negative like, you know what God doesn't care. There's nothing to live for like there's nothing that God doesn't love me like there's nothing about this to love kind of thing

29:57

And I remember he looks straight at me in the eye and he looks over and he's like no There's nothing you've done that God will not forgive like everything that you can bring to the table

30:07

He will forgive that and I remember the exact moment that I believed him like I'm staring down at the ground staring at this bottle and I'm like Oh my gosh, he's right.

30:19

I'm like I I want that. I want this forgiveness Yeah, and that that was the catalyst everything changed that night

30:26

And as you're at this party holding this bottle of wine, was it was it leaking oil? That's hilarious

30:39

That's that's how to do it like inside jokes if you've ever hung out with Steven and I we always see them Oh, no, it's always interesting like circumstantial like God sometimes will have the ability he'll he'll show up You know, he's like the guy at the 11th hour like he'll show up in these like least expected areas

30:56

Like sometimes even that's the story. Yeah story. Well, yeah, but like since he uses yeah well, you think about sound like the churches where they have to like do you know,

31:05

The perfect lighting with the perfect like hypnotic music and the fog machine and all that But it's like you didn't have any of that.

31:13

You're at a party holding a bottle of wine God shows. Yeah, this was cool though. It's cuz what just happened to him

31:19

Apparently he had just gotten saved and he turned into this evangelist at this party. That's what he was doing

31:25

He was fighting with everybody. They're trying to tell them about not fighting but like he was very very passionate about telling people about Jesus that night and it was so funny because I just happened to be there when he had just Gotten saved and he's telling everybody's like we need to stop this like we need to do better You know, like we can't be drinking, you know, it was so funny and he had just gotten saved though And he's just been on fire

31:48

And I happen to be there and he's basically evangelizing to me and I Remember that moment that was like I just remember this.

31:58

Maybe it was like the Holy Spirit I don't know but it had to have been because everything changed and I don't remember the drive home very well

32:04

I don't remember going to bed But I do remember waking up the next day and I remember

32:10

David Wood. He kind of you know, David Wood is yeah The apologist. Yeah. Yeah Nabeel crushy, you know

32:15

BFFs with him He kind of had a very similar experience and I didn't hear his testimony, obviously and I mean

32:22

I was saved before him and I didn't hear this until way later in life, but I had a very similar experience to him where I Remember opening my eyes that day and the

32:32

Sun shone differently the light coming in my window I even remember sitting up and the way that I put my arm on my knee.

32:40

I'm like, oh this feels different like Wow, like I felt like I was in a Disney movie or something.

32:45

Like the birds were chirping the air smelled different colors were brighter like and I had this and this

32:53

Undeniable belief that whoever this person was yesterday is not the same person today

32:59

And I didn't understand understand. I did not know born -again. I never knew that terminology. I didn't know what born -again meant

33:05

I didn't know new creation. I didn't know exactly the words that just happened to me, but I felt it

33:11

I felt completely different the things that I thought I Wanted different things

33:19

I wanted to I thought differently Everything looked different. My world was different. I was a different person.

33:25

And the biggest thing is this I Had this insatiable hunger that's never ended by the way

33:31

To know the Bible. That was the biggest thing. I was hungry for more

33:36

I was like, oh my give me more like I want more of this Whatever. This is like I want more of to understand this.

33:44

Yeah, and I Even remember turning on the TV actually trying to find I know it was bad move

33:49

I'm maybe then but I didn't know any better. I was very ignorant, but it was like a beautiful kind of ignorance

33:55

I was just in this honeymoon stage and I didn't I wanted to understand more about this this forgiveness this Jesus I had accepted last night.

34:02

Yeah, and I remember turning on the TV like flipping through the channels just in this little honeymoon phase of just I Everything was different and I knew

34:12

I was different and even now to this day I look back on that. It was almost like the first miracle that darkness gone

34:20

Yeah, the depression gone and I know it doesn't work like that with everybody. I understand that but for me it was just an

34:27

Overnight like healing of whatever that was. Yeah gone. Dang Do you think that I know it's all speculation but you know growing up In the household that you're growing up in and with even like your mom saying that there's entities around right?

34:46

Do you think maybe part of that in that born -again? This the Holy Spirit in dwelling you now is literally was warding off Maybe spiritual oppression things that were maybe whispering to you to make do make you want to do evil things to yourself

35:02

You know, I mean like you were singled out and then all of a sudden the Lord just like just shot that out That's exactly how it felt it felt like I when

35:10

I literally say and I say this as careful as I can I've thought about it so many years It was the coolest thing that's ever happened to me in my life.

35:18

So whenever I think about how I felt when I woke up I Didn't know who that person was yesterday like whatever happened to me

35:27

Was miraculous like nothing short of that and it was unbelievable to me like even the thought I wanted to eat different foods

35:34

I it came down to every aspect of my I didn't want to cuss anymore. I didn't want to eat garbage anymore

35:42

I wanted to take care of my body. I remember I had really bad cystic acne Sounds stupid, but I'm like,

35:47

I I didn't want to drink soda anymore I didn't want to do these things that I'm like, I just wanted to take care of myself

35:53

I had self -love like Wow, it was we and I had guys I didn't read a page of the Bible It was the pure simple gospel that he told me that yeah and everything changed and Again, and I didn't

36:06

I was so innocent I had no idea what had just happened to me But I I ended up calling my friend and it was so funny because I'm like what you said to me that night changed my life

36:16

Mm -hmm, and he's like really he's like I didn't think anybody was listening Like I was listening my friend and so I started and this is where my journey kind of starts with my

36:26

My Christian life I went through that summer So I remember the exact it was the end of February and I remember

36:32

I got baptized I don't know exactly maybe it was March 17th the Ides of March. I just remember that day.

36:38

It was like March somewhere in March I got baptized. Oh my and even that was a great experience. Oh, geez, that was amazing

36:44

I will never forget my baptism even and I wasn't like I was I didn't know charismatic. I didn't know anything

36:50

None of this fancy terminology and theology. I didn't know. Yeah, but I just knew That I I believed this and I really wanted to get baptized but yeah, here's here's that summer was the best summer of my life

37:03

I remember that summer But how I got baptized and how I even got into a church my friend

37:09

He was going to an independent Baptist Church This is important because people that don't know what an independent

37:15

Baptist Church is the particular one I went to Was very legalistic

37:20

It was King James only Girls were dresses you weren't allowed tattoos. There were limits and restrictions for what you said and did and I didn't know any better.

37:32

I thought this was a you know, it's not like it was a heretical church, but it's very legalistic Right, and it was my first taste of understanding that.

37:40

Oh There's like kind of a hierarchy here The women are different than the men like I can't just and I here's the other thing

37:47

I when I had this experience the other thing that happened with the hunger Okay, I had questions deep deep hard questions.

37:55

Where did the Bible come from? Should I read it? How did they we how did we get this who wrote it? Christianity 101 questions.

38:02

What about hell? What do we do about evil? How does how does God deal with evil like these are deep good questions?

38:08

And so I remember I'm kind of in the environment of this church Wanting to learn more and there was no space for me to do that.

38:16

Mm -hmm. Um, I Remember there was a point where I remember talking to a pastor very nice very nice, man but there was almost like a oh women should not be asking that kind of Attitude and I'm like that Does not help me at all.

38:34

Like I need I need a space for this and I remember my friend at the time the guy who Even what that you know told me the gospel even he was having a hard time

38:43

He's like, I don't know how to answer these and you're how you're stumbling my faith. I remember him telling me that he's like You're making me stumble.

38:49

I don't like like what do I do? I need to get answers and just again to give people a

38:55

Insight into the world. I was in there were still encyclopedias on my bookshelf. YouTube did not exist

39:00

There was not a Stephen Bancar's to look up, you know, like there was not like this. There wasn't cultish

39:06

There was not an apology. I like there wasn't like I didn't even know what the word apologetics was. Yeah. Well, no

39:11

Yeah, I think to do it all honestly And I think about my I was thinking about you telling your story and I think like my experience even growing up in the

39:18

Christian church in the Reformed world like there's a lot of things that I took for granted and Thankfully, you know like I my conversion story is where I came from just sort of believing everything entered

39:29

Intellectually and a near -death experience kind of really brought me in terms like do I actually believe in my heart?

39:35

So I realized I had never done the Romans 10 9 and 10 like believe in my heart and it was my so my thing

39:40

Wasn't like this Damascus Road, but it was just like oh, I need to believe in my heart okay, and then

39:47

I got that if I remember like coming home from this mission trip where this happened at and I did

39:53

I had this like insatiable like hunger to read the Bible and There is this magazine that was produced by Ligonier ministries called table talk

40:02

You get it monthly and I remember my parents described to it They had a giant collection like under the like the coffee table

40:08

And I think my mom told me she remembers me like when I came back from the mission trip and I would have my

40:13

Bible It's like stacks of table talk like going through them and then there's another book by RCS roll call now

40:20

That's a good question That is all about you just ask questions that people have like you're asking and I'm just like going through that like over and over And over again because I was like I had to grasp that I think that's like part of the experience, but it is you need kind of you going through that Well, let me piggyback.

40:34

Oh, yeah. Okay. So let me use that for a second as an example Okay, so I'm in this experience, right?

40:40

I'm in the situation where I Already feel like I'm becoming more of a feminist because I'm like there's you know,

40:46

I'm obviously different than the men You know what? I mean? Like I felt like I was treated different I wasn't taken seriously intellectually like it was it was an issue and when you're a 16 year old girl

40:55

Who had just become a Christian and you realize okay. Well, there's okay well there's kind of limits to what

41:01

I'm allowed to say and do and ask and So I've made a lot of videos about women's Bible studies that kind of touch on this too where there's just a shallowness to it

41:10

Yeah, yeah, and so Think about one in particular That's our video.

41:16

Yeah, there's so much truth That's how you're so good to make a point but all of this stuff came from somewhere like my content now came from somewhere like self -experience and so What what

41:26

I want to point out is that you had books You believed okay, and then you go to your parents bookshelf and you find books that match up with those beliefs

41:37

Okay. All right. Now this is important because that's what happened to me. Yeah, except the books on my shelf were new thought books

41:46

That had Christian terminology they quoted scripture They talked about Spiritual things they said things like the

41:53

Holy Spirit Jesus Christ salvation the atonement. Okay, like these are good biblical words that were taken and distorted and That is really the beginning of how

42:07

I got intertwined with this nobody at my church can answer my questions. Nobody wants to answer my questions and I remember being rebuked for visiting another church.

42:17

I Remember there was a Calvary out in my town actually very good biblically based church. I should have kept going to there.

42:23

Honestly They word by word verse by verse good deep good study of Scripture And I remember going there a few times even but it was in this church the

42:36

Independent Baptist Church that I got baptized and so but that's important because I didn't really know where to go that nobody could disciple me and I didn't feel like I could go to people who knew these things because oh

42:48

Go over there, you know kind of thing I just felt like and I was young and I was a woman and I think you know

42:53

I think a lot of men, you know given the you know climate that we're in sometimes they just want to be careful That damaged me because then

43:00

I didn't really know how to go to the women. The women didn't know how to answer me Nobody had any answers for me. So what

43:06

I did is I quit going to church and I remained very stagnant in my faith but the books on my shelf helped answer some of my questions and I Started regaining this this respect for these spiritual teachers.

43:19

Now, this is important because we have this book on our table right now I just read something out of here that talks about you know, universal mind

43:26

You can very easily and that this book by the way, this is important so and we just found this out today some of the things that I got caught up in where things like the law of attraction which teaches

43:37

The the supposed universal principle that like attracts like that there's energies in the universe that you can attract

43:44

Depending on what thought vibration you are on there's a hierarchy of this So if you're having positive thoughts according to the law of the universe, you will attract that to yourself

43:55

Everything has a vibration Everything you can see according to this law. These are things that were taught to me and scripture was quoted

44:04

Like you got to understand. I thought these things in other words. I thought these things were Christian and I didn't have any sort of way to Differentiate that I had a

44:17

Bible on my shelf. I didn't understand it. I had a King James Bible I was taught and this is the thing I got actually got caught up in the

44:23

King James only world the I was taught that the

44:28

King James Bible is superior to all other Bibles all other Bibles are correct are corrupt and We should not be reading or messing with any other

44:36

Bibles because they have been corrupted So if you want a real really learn the Word of God, you need to read the

44:43

King James Bible It corrects the original manuscripts all this stuff I was told you didn't eat you would you would not put it on the floor even right?

44:51

So I had this yearning for spiritual knowledge and I had respect for this King James Bible that I had

44:56

But I didn't understand it. I didn't know Jewish culture. I didn't understand the Old Testament New Testament I didn't know what the

45:04

Gospels really were I just I had these really basic questions that it just I didn't feel like I had anybody to go to to ask and this is really important because that set the foundation for How I really grasped and accepted

45:17

New age and new thought concepts and Yeah, it was in the universal mind and I say this with a capital

45:25

U and a capital end. That was a really big concept that I started looking into and started accepting and things like the law of attraction laws of the universe there was lost to everything but I just read this normal section from here because this is again to show you that there's nothing new under the

45:42

Sun Here you are, you know at your age when you're still trying to like grasp this and then again

45:48

This is even when you're talking about having not really an answer at the church that you're going to but then sort of being allured and caught into this because even as You're reading this there's levels in which some of the things they're talking about has sort of pseudo

46:00

Christian terminology Yes, so there is that allure? So a new thought to differentiate even more new age will kind of separate itself a little bit more new thought is

46:11

Made to look Christian. Yeah. Yes. So that's very important. Yeah So it's interesting though Is that you know when you talk about there's nothing new under the

46:19

Sun and here you are kind of believing that and a lot of People who are into the new age even now who are going on to tick -tock or they're going on to Instagram or they're becoming their own

46:29

Influencers they believe oh, I have a special knowledge that no one else has but no this is there's nothing new here

46:36

So even like you're talking about this about the universal mind and I just happened to come across Yeah, so like page 11

46:43

There's like principle 26 and 27 of the E kind of gives you bullet points and you get it is this is written out

46:48

From a devotional again. This is a book called the master key system I believe published in 1916

46:54

But it says as there is only one consciousness in the universe that is able to think it

47:01

Necessarily follows that your consciousness is identical with the universe Consciousness or in other words all mind is one

47:09

Mind there is no dodging this conclusion the consciousness that focuses your brain cells is the same consciousness which focuses in in the brain cells of every other individual each individual is but the

47:23

Individualization of the universal the cosmic mind capital capital. That's very important. Hmm And then by then he says the universal mind is static or potential energy

47:33

It simply is it cannot it can manifest only through the individual and the individual can manifest

47:41

Manifest only through the universe. They are one. Yeah, so again, there's an underlying worldview behind it

47:46

I think this is published back in 1916. I just find it amusing you're talking about your experience

47:52

You know only not too long ago and here this is basically Yeah, literate like saying this this is interesting

47:59

So and I didn't know this till today, but this is just one book So everybody remembers hopefully they remember

48:05

Rhonda Byrne and the secret that just took the world by storm a few years ago She begins the whole story of Her doing this and getting into this where she's at a point of depression her life is

48:16

Falling apart around her and her daughter hands her this 100 year old book the book

48:22

She doesn't name in the her story, but it ended up being think and grow rich by waddles is the last name

48:29

And I meant that book was on my shelf This book this particular, but I never heard of it before the master key system by Charles Hannel Jerry just happens to have it in his car when

48:40

I get off the plane yesterday. I think I saw it I'm like, oh this looks like garbage. Let's look at it Like it's a new thought

48:45

I can totally tell what this is I look up this book and this is one of the books that inspired

48:51

Rhonda Byrne to write the secret Well, and it's yes And so this is I'm like this is why it sounds so familiar is because this is exactly this that yeah

49:00

There's nothing new about it. You find one of them Then you're gonna find that they're all intertwined somehow and sold over 35 million copies the secret

49:08

Yes Pretty good And so it's like you have age of Enlightenment was everything that's when

49:17

Joseph Smith came out of the woodwork You have Phineas Quimby you have all these people that Are into these new spiritualities and it just came up, but there's nothing new about it

49:27

It's been around for a long time, but to progress in the story but yeah, so like this is the kind of stuff that I'm Messing with and I'm not really seeing a need to go to church

49:38

At the time and I'm not really seeing a need to read the Bible because according to these books the Bible is only part of The story it only has some truth in it.

49:45

You can't really trust the Bible In fact, I believed that these teachers these spiritual teachers were kind of I don't know

49:52

I don't when I would not use the word prophet I would use the word they were there to correct what was wrong with the

49:58

Bible. That was the impression I got these people are so spiritual that There is so in tuned with it with the cosmic mind with the universal

50:07

Christ with everything That they are there to teach us these higher universal principles

50:14

And it's just a bunch of garbage like everything under the Sun was it looked at as correct It could be

50:19

Eastern mysticism. It could be reincarnation. It could be your Jehovah's Witness. That's cool You know, that's your truth, you know, and that's how it kind of became where I was a

50:27

Christian and And and grasped these things and I think that's important I want everybody to kind of understand that there's there's an aspect where I did not believe in Like even like basic not that I didn't believe in I didn't understand

50:43

Typical theology the question people ask me is was I still a Christian? Andrew yeah.

50:49

Okay. So this is what you've got. This is what you've got me thinking about this is an issue I think a lot of Evangelical America's facing today is the fact of poor discipleship and bad

50:59

Undershepherds, right like Jesus is the shepherd But he also institutes a system of pastors to take care of his flock his flock number one

51:08

And when you have somebody right who isn't doing their job You get lost sheep and what do you lost sheep do they get stuck in places?

51:16

Are they stuck forever? No, because Jesus is the Good Shepherd right and he has his point and purpose and all things

51:24

But that's the issue like you go to this one church who's focused more on answering questions about the King James version of the

51:29

Bible But when you're answer when you're asking simple questions, that should be answered. There's no discipleship going on You're gonna go to where you're gonna go to other sources in other places

51:40

And that's what the false prophets and false teachers thrive off of they thrive off of poor Pastorship they thrive off of people who aren't really taking care of the flock of God because they'll go

51:51

Answer those hard questions in crazy roundabout ways, but now you're just a sheep that stuck that that's what

51:58

I hear You're a sheep that's stuck somewhere at the moment. That's a great way to explain it. That was just really yeah

52:04

That was good. And that's you know what to again piggyback off of that to springboard

52:09

I need there was a point where I started going back to church Okay, like I got married in 2007

52:16

I was 23 still head deep in in the New Age. I remember like visualizing my wedding day

52:22

I remember doing all these things like all these New Age practices It was so funny to just thinking about that stuff.

52:29

And I remember Jerry you were asking about like evil and stuff I remember having and this was after I got married and I got more into it more and more one of the things that I learned from a spiritual teacher was about subjective reality and It was so eye -opening to me at the time where it's like that evil doesn't have to exist in your reality in fact because this is your reality you kind of put the pieces where they need to be and Whatever you bring into your reality is your responsibility.

52:57

So don't bring the evil in other words Ignore it and that was horrible because that makes you yeah, like that was the best way to at the time

53:05

I actually found a lot of comfort in it. Isn't that horrible? Like it was just it was about me. It's me centered

53:10

It's very you centered, but you don't see it like that at the time what you do to somebody else you do to yourself so that's one reason why there's an element of Being kind and loving to others because you want that for yourself.

53:22

So but I said twisting of the golden rule. Yeah Doing it to glorify

53:27

God and love your neighbor. You're really doing it for yourself Yes, this is a lot of biblical aspects though You have every sort of biblical principle that's taken and just regurgitated through these

53:40

Teachers and it's not necessarily untrue and that's the thing is that you'd read it and I would read books like Eckhart Tolle I loved

53:46

Eckhart Tolle I thought he was like the most legit awakened dude on the planet and Oprah loves him by the way and Stephen Furtick follows him but anyway

53:55

Sorry to punch jab. He was seriously Me should you're gonna have a pastor.

54:02

He's a pastor. This is what we're talking about. That's the issue. We finally Sorry, do we get a sidetrack but no we actually just we've never mentioned

54:11

Stephen Furtick ever like Except for a recent post on social media. Oh, yeah, which

54:17

Yeah, so apparently we found out this new thing is trending in it and we were talking about it started by that the the red flags

54:24

Yeah, which is what we're talking about. It's like well, how how did we not figure out to use this as a tool until now?

54:31

Where people have what we're talking and people universally we're talking about like something That's a red flag like you're on a you're on a first date and they talk about this and that's like red flag red flag red flag red flag red flag

54:44

And so people tag me in this quote by him. It was just so and it's trending right now, but it was just We did we did that with a bunch of red flags and it and it just blew up But I think one of the things that stuck out to me and maybe it's relevant to your story

55:00

He said something that was so Unbiblical II like it was just so bad.

55:05

Like I know it was so good If I heard that in the New Age like that would yeah So good to me and then

55:11

I would that's that would have sounded good and the majority of people who interacted with that post Before he deleted it and didn't clarify it

55:17

Which thanks Mike winger for pulling that out. Shout out to Mike winger We're doing like we're doing a shout out to every single person

55:24

But but yeah There are so many like hearts and you know care reacts and like a man a man prays

55:30

Oh, yeah, nobody knew like how about believing in Jesus? I think it's a believing in Jesus doesn't change you

55:36

Changes you into the person that you always were. Yes. It helps you see who you always were your potential

55:44

Yes, but see then I see that with totally different lenses and I think it's important This there's so many things

55:53

I want to say about this because it's like if you're if you're an addict let's say or say you've had an experience where You've been through that and you see it differently than another person would if you're you know

56:03

Let's just say that you did struggle with with drugs at one point You can probably spot somebody that struggles with that way easier

56:10

Than somebody that has never struggled without a day in their life like oh They are an addict because I used to be one, you know

56:17

That's kind of how I feel when I see that stuff I'm like, oh I see that do you yeah because I used to believe in this new thought garbage and guess who else puts that on their on their

56:28

Pulpit a lot of mega church leaders. And so that's one reason why I actually do a lot of videos on this

56:34

Not a ton. I've done one in particular and I actually did use Stephen as an example Ironically for dick

56:40

Stephen for dick but that kind of you know segues into my next thing is that I started going back to church

56:46

But what I started going back to was a life application mega church. Mm -hmm, and it was

56:53

Not terrible, but you have to understand I went to this church for like 10 years not religiously

56:59

But I went there very very often and I went through the doors every week reading

57:04

Eckhart Tolle books loving Oprah Reading Rhonda Byrne learning about the law of attraction

57:09

Emmett Fox and the Napoleon Hill like all these new thought leaders and teachers Joel scene was a big one.

57:16

Oh, man, I loved him and I didn't know Any different because the words that they were saying on the pulpit didn't sound very different The definition and it was

57:26

Sandra Tanner who once said if you find yourself agreeing with a Mormon You have not defined your terms

57:32

And that's yeah, it's like that's exactly what it is. It's a it's a They take the the terminology and they run with it and That was really what part of it too is that you didn't have anybody that could really lay that out

57:45

So I started going back to church and what really changed for me. So this is this is the whole point of where I'm at right now and What really changed this is this is the cool part and this is a kind of where coldish comes in on why this story is relevant to your podcast because everything changed for me in 2010 between these 2010 and 2011.

58:05

I Had my first child in 2010 and I remember Visualizing so like your wife

58:12

Casey, she's pregnant right 42 weeks. I remember almost 42 weeks. Don't tell her something That's like a nightmare to think about another week.

58:20

Yeah. Yeah but um, I remember I was Visualizing and meditating on how

58:27

I wanted my pregnancy to go and my my birth to go I knew that I was gonna have a natural birth

58:34

It was gonna be with my midwife and it was gonna be in in this aspect

58:39

It was gonna be at this time like all this stuff and I was doing good I was on I every day

58:45

I did my meditations every day. I visualized every day. I journaled it None of that happened.

58:51

None of it happened I remember I was 42 weeks overdue and this is important because this is actually at the beginning of okay

58:58

Maybe this it planted a seed We're okay, what am I doing wrong, you know to not make these things happen and Everything went wrong long story behind that my birth

59:10

But it my child my my daughter's birth, but nothing happened the way it was supposed to happen

59:16

It was really traumatic and so I get home my daughter's growing up and I realized

59:21

I still have these questions I still have things that I'm looking for answers for and I I Even though I had all this, you know knowledge

59:30

I still didn't understand the Bible and and like things that were in the Bible because if you read it not every

59:35

It's not like you're gonna have a commentary from Eckhart Tolle telling you, you know, what's in the Bible? Yeah and I didn't understand certain things

59:41

Jesus said and a lot of the new thought teachers love to take the book of Matthew and just Distort it Matthew 7 is like the formula for the law of attraction

59:49

Matthew 7 7 ask believe and receive What you ask for in faith you will believe if you believe with all your heart and a lot of prosperity

59:57

Gospels our preachers and word -of -faith preachers use the same verses. It's uncanny

01:00:02

Whatever is loosed in earth will be loosed in heaven. So that's the thing. So, you know what I mean? So it's like I had no

01:00:09

Not I had no Exposure to word -of -faith preachers none.

01:00:15

All I had was new thought teachers So when I see the same thing from pulpits,

01:00:21

I'm like you guys where are you getting this from? How are you teaching the same exact concepts and principles?

01:00:28

Independent of each other because they're not that's the thing. So That I'm getting ahead of myself.

01:00:34

But so I'm I'm thinking about these things again I'm bringing it out and I remember being very careful with how

01:00:41

I'm thinking about it because I'm putting it out there in the universe And at the time I Remember this to Jehovah's Witnesses knock on my door and I remember thinking

01:00:51

I had manifested them. I remember thinking Oh Lord God, thank you for bringing them to my door and it's important to note and Make this clear that I believed at the time that all religions

01:01:03

Thought believed in virtually the same thing Except in different ways the way that you worshipped

01:01:09

God was the way that you worshipped God whether you're a Muslim Whether you were a Mormon, whatever it was like the illustration of like a three man the three blind men in the room

01:01:17

It was the elephant. Yes Yes, and you know, let me just point that out for a second The logical fallacy with that is very obvious because it's still an elephant

01:01:28

Because yes Even though you are depicting this elephant like this and that you're all wrong because there's still a truth to be known

01:01:37

Yes, and it's like that that that elephant is like that's Jesus Yeah, that's

01:01:43

God, you know, and you just you are basically showing your own depiction of God, but it's still incorrect like I loved that.

01:01:54

I loved that at the time. But now that I think about it, I'm like, that's not the best analogy Yeah Well, I love this too because I mean even like going here.

01:02:02

You're still you're going to seminary now, right? Yeah, but you were you're doing a class to on logic, right?

01:02:08

Yeah I'm doing a critical thinking class critical thinking class and you're going over logic and it's like you can't switch off all this

01:02:13

You're telling a story and you have to like Cuz you're just you were studying it earlier when we're hanging out

01:02:21

I had to do my homework Yeah, cuz it's it's a oh, it's this book It's a you gotta read it

01:02:26

But it's like you have to read it over and over again because it's very difficult like that It reminds me of math or like a puzzle.

01:02:31

That's what it is You have to look at it and you're like something's wrong with this, but what is it, you know

01:02:37

And it's so lovely like how it makes you think about things and you're like something's wrong with this

01:02:43

It's life -changing. Everybody should take a critical thinking class anyway But yeah, so two Jehovah's Witnesses show up at my door and I just was enthralled

01:02:52

I was so happy and I think they were happy because I think that they now that I know what I know I don't think that they're used to people being very kind to them much less people who call themselves

01:03:01

Christians I'm like, oh, yes, I would love to have you come back. I thought that this was great I thought this was a gift from the universe and What I had heard about Jehovah's Witness theology at that point to that point.

01:03:12

I thought was a rumor. This is very important I thought that people had them all wrong.

01:03:17

I'm like, no, they don't actually believe that they don't believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel I'm biblically illiterate and even I know that they don't actually believe that you know, and they don't actually believe this

01:03:27

They don't know. Okay, but I can deal with that. You don't believe Jesus as God, you know, that's cool That's fine. You know what you do.

01:03:32

That's the whole point is that you find what is tolerable and you find the common ground It's always the common ground so that you don't argue and that you all find what you

01:03:41

What you think, you know Together and the thing is that what I noticed was very frustrating for me and it felt like the same thing

01:03:48

I felt at the Independent Baptist Church was I would ask information and they would never give it to me directly

01:03:54

It was always printed out from the watchtower and I thought that was very odd Because I'm like, how come you don't know this stuff, you know, like right off the top of your head

01:04:02

I found that to be a little frustrating because it was always never like an open -ended response But they've met with me about three or four times what changed everything

01:04:12

Okay was I could tolerate what they were saying? And in find common ground and I tried to get like, okay.

01:04:19

Well, where'd the Bible come from? You know, what about evil? Oh, well, God will you know, redeem mankind paradise earth, you know, and they gave those feel

01:04:25

I'm very repetitive, but I didn't feel like I'm like I don't think they're hearing me because I keep hearing the same stuff over and over again.

01:04:31

Now, I understand why But around the fourth visit the woman it's two women

01:04:37

I was visiting with and I remember We were talking about, you know a particular topic and at the end.

01:04:46

She's like, okay. Well, I think you're ready for deeper stuff You know next week. We'll talk about how Jesus is Michael the Archangel and that very specifically

01:04:55

Hit a nerve with me because I remember thinking that's a lie. You guys don't actually believe that and I remember kind of thinking what whoa,

01:05:03

I was taken back I'm like you you believe that like where does where does the Bible say that and she wrote it down, you know

01:05:09

First Thessalonians yada yada all their stuff Jude all the little, you know cherry -picked verses that they have

01:05:15

For that and I felt for the first time in like years Whoo, you need to go research go go go go go go go go like this this incessant just You know urgency to research.

01:05:29

Yeah, it unleashed your inner super sleuth Yes, yeah, that's a very good way to put it and What did you say earlier

01:05:38

Jerry? I was very hangry for the word spiritually hangry I was spiritually hangry Okay I was talking to you like that's what it was me first like him a

01:05:45

Christian years like I need to read the Bible read Yeah, and so I felt that hangriness again, you know, I was very hungry and but I haven't felt that in a long time now this is 2010 no 2011.

01:05:57

Alright, so think about the time difference. So 2003 compared 2011 you have

01:06:02

Yeah, like you you have the Internet you have websites out that are you know able and willing and up and You could research and I remember the whole the rabbit trail like The the domino effect

01:06:17

I went online Which is actually their their worst enemy. They tell them not do not go on the

01:06:24

Internet yeah, I know why because everything about their religion is is out there and the

01:06:31

World Wide Web for everybody to find out I had Ministry after ministry come up and I went down the rabbit hole.

01:06:37

I'm like, oh man. Oh my goodness. They're a cult Like I realized everything about this religion.

01:06:42

But here's here's what's important and This is this is where everything changed is I started researching their religion

01:06:48

Okay, which was a very safe way for God to use that as the catalyst to research my own beliefs

01:06:56

Okay, so here I am. I'm researching Jehovah's Witnesses and like the Trinity. Let's just say okay, and I'm like, oh wow

01:07:04

If that's true about God Then what I believe is wrong about about that particular aspect of God and so like all these little things, right?

01:07:12

Every time I would research something about their religion it always of course use scripture to back up why it's wrong

01:07:18

Well, do I believe the Bible? Well, I mean if that's true, then why am I even looking at this? It was a rabbit hole

01:07:23

Well, even this when we're I don't know if you read it Could this one like part of this book when we were at the coffee shop a little bit ago

01:07:30

I'm just talking about how your mind is both a Omnipotent omniscient and there's giving these attributes that only belong to God.

01:07:40

Yeah, I read that Yeah, and so I remember just reading reading back to that initially at the coffee shop

01:07:46

I was like, wait a minute that they're addressing things and I mean I have that Christian mindset Immediately viewing this through a

01:07:53

Christian lens like I know that's false But here you are almost like vice -versa sort of hearing these things talk about God only

01:07:59

God is omnipotent Yes, yeah You have attributes of God that are applied to you but if scripture says that is only for the one personal

01:08:07

God of the universe my My concept of God was changing. I'm like, okay.

01:08:12

Hold on. Wait. God's not a universal consciousness it was weird like I had this weird like just Like a salad bar belief system like there were

01:08:20

Christian ease things that I believed and I believe in Jesus and I believe in God I just thought that he wanted to think about word of faith.

01:08:27

I like that analogy. What would salad bar? I just made up my yeah. I love it Yeah, I even had like this a hybrid view of like karma and reincarnation

01:08:34

I'm like how how I use believe in universalism was that God we would die And God would just reincarnate you until you believe in the gospel.

01:08:42

Yay You know like it was just how I believed it and it was It's like pinning down a cloud trying to define this is why you have to define with somebody who's in the

01:08:50

New Age like what? Exactly they believe you find who God is, you know, it's actually a satire idea Yeah, did you real have you ever thought about this or realize this it's a tripping me out a little bit

01:09:00

But so you heard the gospel presented to you at a party at a young age, right? That's Jesus in the call of the gospel draws you in Yeah, right you go to church you get thrown to the side.

01:09:12

The pastor doesn't do his job as discipleship You're a lost sheep, but but guess what brought what starts bringing you back in the word of God No, literally they you question.

01:09:21

They they made you think about the deity of who Jesus Jesus Yes, it was Jesus all the time.

01:09:27

It was always Jesus like all of a sudden that you just go. Whoa, and now he's he's getting you down this rabbit hole

01:09:34

Like you said, it's so cool. The Providence. Yeah sovereignty of God. He used this. That's tripping me out

01:09:39

Yes, like it's so cool to think back of it now And I'll get into that because this is really interesting to see how

01:09:46

The the empathy that has grown in me because of this experience Yeah and it's like you have to understand that you have to recognize that if you've never been deceived or if you've never been through like It's such a hard time.

01:09:58

You have a really hard time and people and you have a tendency to be harsh and corrective and it's unnecessary

01:10:05

Sometimes you need that but a lot of times it's like if you understand like and this is important to you

01:10:10

This is really important. In fact, I'm gonna take a chance to say this right now people did try to tell me People did try to tell me.

01:10:17

Okay, nobody Said it kindly Nobody said it kindly.

01:10:24

Okay the I remember After I got out of this stuff. I remember talking to the pastor at the

01:10:30

Independent Baptist Church. He's like, oh, yeah I knew you were into that stuff. I'm like, why didn't you say anything? You know, like why didn't you try to like come alongside and he would rebuke it, you know, like there would be things

01:10:40

Everything was worldly. Everything was demonic. Everything was to be avoided and it was just like, okay, apparently

01:10:48

You know, there's there's walls there, but it wasn't just him. I remember If there was somebody that tried to oh it was

01:10:56

I remember being online and people would say of course online the Social media has not made us more social.

01:11:03

It has made us more tribal and There would be And Facebook was relatively new people would say stuff

01:11:12

But I remember thinking how horrible like there's just so closed -minded and narrow -minded and and it's like there's a there's a boldness to there

01:11:19

But there was a boldness and a kindness when my friend told me about this He pointed to me and he told me this and it was it was a message that wasn't rebuking me

01:11:29

I wasn't a believer at the time. It was direct and it was powerful and it was the Holy Spirit you know that that worked in that but I think it's important that people kind of take that please and and and Understand that sometimes people need to hear the boldness of what we have to say other times

01:11:46

It's different like I always think about that I'm like, what if I had somebody that was kind about this

01:11:53

Like would I you know, I probably it took him Jehovah's Witnesses, you know to kind of point that out but yeah, so to kind of get back on the thing the

01:12:02

I Remember researching this and it was such a divergent thing Like it all came together and I remember oh my this was the turning point

01:12:11

I'm going down the rabbit hole. I'm researching and researching I'm seeing things being negative being said about people like Eckhart Tolle people

01:12:18

I look up to and I'm like no no way there's no way somebody can say something mean about him. He's he's loving

01:12:23

He's a he's a spiritual teacher. He's just trying to teach love. Oh, no people have plenty things to say Yeah, and which is true because most people whatever system their part they're part of they have a very reverent

01:12:36

View of their leader as in there that they're flawless whether they're looking up to Joseph Smith Yeah, or if you if you remember,

01:12:44

I'm thinking of I of the story, you know, I'm not being allowed to look on the internet. So Yeah, it's

01:12:51

David Miscavige. Who's now the head of Scientology. It was his father Ron Miscavige and he has a story where he was

01:13:00

Wanting to question Scientology, but he found he had an iPad But somehow he got around an internet browser that wasn't monitored by Scientology And so he was able to find like look on the internet and see these things, you know

01:13:12

It was a pretty crazy story But he was on there But most of the time people will have this very reverent view of their leader and he experienced all this cognitive dissonance

01:13:20

That all of a sudden it's that Morpheus holding up the battery moment from the matrix We're like, oh my gosh, this person's not who

01:13:27

I thought they weren't What do I do and also speaking of you talking about this whole thing being worked out with Deception and kind of going through that what happens to in a cult in cults or a cultish

01:13:41

Infrastructure is that in their accruement process? They're never up front about their core beliefs until later on later on and let you mention like lesson four, right?

01:13:50

Now we're gonna talk about how Jesus Michael the Archangel. That's not Like No, do we do you have a moment to talk about our

01:13:57

Lord and Savior Jesus Michael that she is who's Michael the Archangel like No, they don't do that. What do Mormons do they say give him the milk first on the meat?

01:14:03

Yeah Or even like jokingly that in the there's this month There's a mock conversation between Walter Martin and Ed Decker called dialogue at the doorstep with a

01:14:11

Mormon and they're just mocked you're doing like a mock conversation and Walter Martin brings up this theological point about who

01:14:17

Jesus is and Ed Decker jokingly says wait. No, you see you're in lesson five Busting up laughing but the point is in being is that what you were experiencing is the typical cult like indoctrination where you know your four lessons in now, we're gonna bring this deeper doctrine, but Here it is.

01:14:37

All of a sudden that forces you to think yes, which sometimes you have to hear an opposing viewpoint

01:14:42

Yeah, the best way to learn sometimes is to hear an opposing viewpoint. So yeah What's interesting is that it took a drunk guy at a party, you know, well kind of almost

01:14:50

You know, like he was drinking, you know, and he's out there, you know, and he's like trying to tell people the gospel You know,

01:14:56

I didn't know later until later on though. He's like, yeah, I had a few beers It was funny and then he used to Jehovah's Witnesses. It's like it's really interesting how the indirect ways that he works through our life kind of just is his providence and his sovereignty like the way that he works things together and I mean, it didn't really shake if anything

01:15:16

I was just more defensive over my spiritual leaders that I loved and adored But it took one sentence.

01:15:21

So speaking of simple things there was a forum I was on I still don't know who this dude was I don't know what forum

01:15:26

I was on or anything But he was going back and forth because what you do is you get defensive, right? and then you start thinking oh no, there has to be defenses to what they're saying in this, you know in our spirituality and He was going down about some they were having a conversation back and forth and they were talking about deity within and one dude he was like You will be as God Sounds like a slimy serpent to me.

01:15:53

Mm -hmm, and I remember just heard that before. Oh, yeah. No, no guys I didn't know the Bible, right? Mm -hmm.

01:15:58

I remember physically sitting back in my chair just oh My word,

01:16:03

I believe in the serpent's lie fell for that Everything unraveled after that that that simple sentence was just that was what

01:16:11

I you know cognitive dissonance. That's how I let it go Yeah, I'm like, okay. Okay. All right. I need to look into this more, you know, and I did and I remember looking into It was wonderful ministries.

01:16:22

It was a Ministries that catered to Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons like they were ministries that were

01:16:28

Christians former Mormons former Jehovah's Witnesses That were now believers that actually like came together.

01:16:35

They made all these ministries. They were all over the internet and Partnered together to kind of try to reach them and those were really where I went because it was like the best

01:16:45

Avenue I had to to understand Jehovah's Witness theology, but also understand the Bible and so the more

01:16:50

I understood Jehovah's Witness theology It was ironic because the more I understand the Bible because you had to to fight this you had to know this and I had to Research.

01:16:58

Okay. Well, how did we get the Bible then because if you study Mormonism they don't believe the Bible completely and it was just this big huge wonderful beautiful like session of just Learning how we got the

01:17:09

Bible. I'm like, okay. I can trust this now so I can read it and Believe it and understand it and I Realized it was about two weeks after the last visit with the

01:17:19

Jehovah's Witnesses because one of the girls was going out of town So it gave me that time to research when they came back. I was a completely different believer.

01:17:27

I Understood things about their religion that I did not understand two weeks ago. It was just hours and hours and hours of research

01:17:34

I was like kind of obsessed with it. It was a it was a Yeah, just I couldn't stop and is all of a sudden that hunger was reignited

01:17:42

And all of a sudden I had resources and I became really good friends with a former Jehovah's Witness Turned Christian who really took me under her wing.

01:17:50

Her name was Julie and I love her to this day I don't know. She discipled me All right

01:17:56

Like she kind of came alongside me answered questions for me about the religion and what's cool about it Is that again if you're comparing truth from lie, you have to know what the truth is

01:18:05

So if Jehovah's Witnesses are teaching a lie well, then what's the truth and I actually learned a lot about my

01:18:11

Bible by kind of trying to counteract and come against their

01:18:17

Beliefs and I was still learning like there were still things that I didn't understand but she's like this is good they're in your home because you can reach them in a way that most people can't and now that you know this, you know, and You can you can learn about this and it ended up being a very very fruitful time in my life

01:18:33

I went to the Kingdom Hall a few times. I went to the memorial a few times went to their conventions this was how I got started in ministry and It was in 2011 and it for about a year or two about two years.

01:18:45

I was just in it I was researching this religion looking up the past trying to reach Jehovah's Witnesses.

01:18:50

I learned a lot about Talking points how to treat people. I learned a lot about The the empathy the one thing that Julie was really big about was that these people are hurting

01:19:02

Like these people are yeah, she's I've been there like the locks stay on and It is the

01:19:10

Holy Spirit that can break the locks, you know, and like you are his servant, you know But it was it was the empathy it was it was why why reach out to them in love?

01:19:19

Anyway, you know and just all these things so like I think of where I'm at now and I think about how

01:19:25

God has taught me things in all Everything that I've gone through like I now understand completely

01:19:33

When I can look at a verdict post and think oh, there's something wrong with that because I used to believe that right, you know

01:19:39

Well, I think to you when you go through this knows like sharing I was sharing in one of the last episodes we did about how about Joshua Harris who deconstructed

01:19:49

And his whole process and him like he we were talking about Mark Driscoll in the cold of personality but when we compared and contrasted that with Joshua Harris who's another cold of course personality who walked away from the

01:20:00

Christian faith and Deconstructed and he was a huge largely involved in the whole, you know purity culture movement there's a lot of people who've kind of used his teachings as a way to kind of Who are hurt by that and use it as a way to be like bitter and angry and even use that as a catalyst to deconstruct

01:20:16

And I said there's ways in which that affected me In you could argue like in a negative light

01:20:21

But ultimately if you really have a true and healthy perspective as a Christian you realize that things don't happen to you

01:20:28

They happen ultimately for you and that brother. Yeah, and that allows you then to Really have a catalyst and an orthodoxy to make sense of suffering or why these things go through you like some people would say, you know

01:20:42

No, no, there's been your mindset. Why didn't I just get this stuff early? Like why couldn't I like why couldn't

01:20:47

I have had that Jehovah's Witnesses experience the day after you know

01:20:52

Accepting accepting Jesus when I was holding a bottle of wine waking up the next morning, you know Like why couldn't

01:20:58

I have accepted why couldn't that happen sooner? Why do they have to have this long extended gap? When you're going through all this and when you're having your first child and you're having all that but it's like, you know

01:21:09

God was preparing you Now and now you have as like catalyst for influence to even like tell your story now

01:21:15

Yeah And what's interesting too about that is that the timing is interesting Because you know It's the same argument for why did

01:21:21

Jesus come when he did is that there's the world is a certain way at that point That you know

01:21:27

God could use you know, like a Rhodes, you know something simple like that parchment You know

01:21:32

Like there was things that were not invented yet before then and reasons why he didn't come after and so like there's perfect timing there

01:21:39

If that had happened a week later, where would I have gone right? I would have probably maybe would have been you know

01:21:45

What's funny is that my mom did grow she went to the Kingdom Hall too Like my mom went through similar experiences.

01:21:51

Our conclusions were very different though, and I wonder I'm like man I wonder if like you had access to the same information

01:21:57

I did if you would you know still would have believed in these things But she was trying to find a frame of reference for her spiritual experiences and I did things, you know like I remember trying to You know,

01:22:07

I thought it was perfectly fine to channel entities I was trying to get a spirit guide at the time and So and that okay.

01:22:14

So I here I am I'm doing this thing and a lot of spiritual warfare stuff I remember having something thrown at me

01:22:19

I was in my living room and I remember I was watching something very specific about the

01:22:27

Trinity There was something that I was learning like oh man God became his creation and I was so enthralled with this and I remember just being into this and something across My my living room.

01:22:38

There's a window there and there was a plant in front of the window. There's nothing to throw Something came from through the plant and hit the table so hard that it like me

01:22:50

It was so loud that it moved the table Nothing was thrown, but it looked like something was thrown and I'm like, holy cow

01:22:58

You know, I remember having a something a plate thrown at me in the kitchen all this stuff going on and I'm like what

01:23:05

I mean What did I get myself into? You know sleep paralysis was a real thing and like I remember this this

01:23:11

No, it was a thing. Is that you're trying to get like your entities. You're trying to get a spirit guide You're trying to get this Wisdom as being to give you this spiritual information so that you can achieve

01:23:22

These spiritual things like other people and it's a hierarchy, you know After I started getting into the word after I started really studying what

01:23:30

I knew and I realized what I had been into It was just I remember there was a point where I told everything in my house to like leave

01:23:39

You know, you can't have me like I'm done with this and I had a frustration though, too And this is this is important.

01:23:45

Is that okay? I Had a frustration because it seemed like everybody else could

01:23:51

Invoke these things, but I couldn't it felt like almost like I don't know. Maybe I was

01:23:58

Protected I don't know it was odd Like I I didn't I couldn't do these things like other people could I still open doors?

01:24:04

I shouldn't have opened and did things I shouldn't have done Yeah, but it just seemed like what was wrong with me like I seemed more

01:24:10

Like I was working harder with no results looking back now. I'm like, okay. Well, thanks God You know, but that's that's what got me into ministry

01:24:18

It started in 2011 and it started with ministry to Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons I invited

01:24:24

Mormons and I visited with the same set of Mormons for nine months I know it's like unheard of yeah, and I went to the ward and I just learned a lot from that time and yeah, actually if you was funny you mentioned that because a

01:24:35

Paul before the YouTube apologies to his YouTube channel What's this video by the time it's gonna be up on that channel, by the way

01:24:42

But if you go back to the very first videos, I think the very first one at the time I think the the channel was actually called defend the faith or something like that but they've been one of the very first videos are just an audio of I think pastor

01:24:55

Jeff and pastor Luke talking to Jehovah's Witnesses at a park and They literally sat down an old -school phone for like a 2008.

01:25:04

Whatever is used back then as a record It would I don't even feel it. No if it's a phone They just said recorder and they just recorded this conversation.

01:25:10

They put it up on YouTube and it got a lot of exposure It was just one of those things like even back then so I just noticed that similarity, but Also a lot of conversation we did a lot of conversations to with Mormons But yeah, that's interesting

01:25:24

That I learned from you you would learn from you know, former

01:25:29

Mormons Yeah, but the ministries like that that's really it was so good and refreshing to find that I'm like, man

01:25:35

There's a lot of people out here that Have all these refer like resources.

01:25:40

Yeah, and You know, what's funny is that looking back now like what I would understand to be like charismatic like hyper charismatic

01:25:47

Beliefs I didn't know that there was even it wasn't until like maybe five Maybe years ago that I started leaning like learning.

01:25:55

Oh, wow, like there's something wrong with it It's like, you know, I'm starting to think oh, okay

01:26:00

There's new age entering the church and you know, maybe somebody should do something about that or say something, you know

01:26:05

But that hasn't really been an issue until I would say I don't know maybe in mainstream social media

01:26:11

Something to address in that aspect until recently. Yeah, no, it's interesting I think also like with your whole story and even maybe you can talk about this too because You got involved in ministry, but I remember one of my some of my first connections with you was

01:26:24

Talking we were part of it was a Facebook group It was the thing a Christianity just to knew it new age of Christianity group

01:26:30

And so you're dealing with these brand new people I just every couple days would be new people and they would just be like freaking out like oh my gosh

01:26:38

What I do, you know, yeah, and and I think there's a lot of aspects I think even from your story

01:26:44

I've just almost like a lessons like what can we learn about like yours like just your story in general or even kind of how to Talk or even encounter with people who are in the new age.

01:26:54

Like how can we really understand them? and I think one of the things that just Caught my attention too is that when we are dealing with people that are coming out of the new age

01:27:03

I think a lot of them, you know I think you just have to understand like where they're coming from Like first of all you talking about even your supernatural experiences or some of the things you experienced that were like oddball and I think even a couple years ago for me that would have been like Oh, that's a little extra.

01:27:18

You're probably sensationalizing things And so a lot of times especially in the reform camp even the cessationist world

01:27:26

They sometimes people swing to that camp because they experience. Yeah, they swing that way because they experienced some level of craziness or abuse or sensationalism or even so a distorted version of spiritual warfare

01:27:40

And so they swing to the opposite end, but they totally discount any aspect of the supernatural I think one of the problems too is that anyone who's an ex new ager that if they walk into a church like that people aren't going to really listen to their experience and you can

01:27:53

We have we have to have a biblical framework where we can actually understand and affirm there that they had they experienced something

01:28:01

But it wasn't good. You know, we're not using some abstract Sensationalist way to counteract that we're looking at it through the lens of Scripture.

01:28:09

So I think one on there's a level in which we have to We need to understand we have a basis to understand their experience, but we have to affirm it we can affirm it but then we have to give

01:28:19

Scripture because we have to give them the lens that we can see which is Scripture not anything that's vague or abstract. I think that's really important Andrew.

01:28:25

Did you have something? Yeah, I feel like your mind was good. You might your mind's always being blown but As we know

01:28:33

But you're always something going on what you're on your mind, but yeah, dude So what this is getting me thinking about is we've read this scripture before I'm gonna read it now

01:28:42

We've read it before in previous episodes, but I think it's really pertinent pertinent now. So I'm gonna read this from 2nd Corinthians 1 3 and I'll read it through 7 just just listen

01:28:52

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ the Father of mercies and God of all comfort Who comforts us in all our afflictions so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction

01:29:02

With the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God First we share abundantly in Christ's suffering so through Christ We share abundantly in comfort to if we are afflicted like what

01:29:12

Jerry was saying earlier It is for your comfort and salvation If we are comforted is for your comfort Which you experience when you patiently endure the same sufferings that we suffer our hope for you is unshaken for we know that as you

01:29:24

Share in our sufferings you will also share in our comfort Of course, there's different sufferings that were going on at that time, right when

01:29:30

Paul pens this but what I'm thinking now in today in the application of Especially with what you guys are talking about is like as Christians We need to understand where we once were right and what

01:29:41

God saved us from and into so when we look at somebody who? Is going through something that they've experienced

01:29:49

Especially someone coming out of New Thought New Age or some weird entity thing that they've been into we affirm their experience

01:29:56

But that experience doesn't actually determine truth. But the way the Christian is supposed to Talk to this person is with comfort comfort from God, right?

01:30:06

There's a reason there's a purpose There's an answer not necessarily that the theology that you've derived from these times is true

01:30:15

But there are experiences you've experienced this but you can be comforted by God who I am too comforted from as Christians We're the only ones given by God the ability to comfort anyone in what affliction.

01:30:28

Oh, it says in any Affliction. Mm -hmm. So the question is is why don't we? Why don't we right?

01:30:34

I think a lot of it is fear maybe and pride I think I have a lot to do with it, too You know, you know what?

01:30:39

It reminds me of Andrew when you were talking that's that was so good And this is what it reminds me of is like I was a slow kid in class, like all right

01:30:47

I remember being in special ed. I didn't learn like the other kids. I had to take Like it was special ed classes, but just the teachers had to take more time with me and it was actually

01:31:00

I was in the 90s You know, not a lot of them were very happy about that. So, you know what I mean?

01:31:06

It's just I was just different. I remember being in first grade. I didn't know my colors You know what? I mean? Like it was it was a situation first grade, you know, and In my first grade teacher loved me

01:31:17

She actually thought there was something very different and artistic with me ironic how that turned out too because now

01:31:22

I have this thing for art But here's the thing and this is the point as I remember there was a time

01:31:28

It was like in middle school Entering into high school and there was a an aspect of a class that I didn't understand yet is really really really smart kid

01:31:36

Okay, the smartest kid possibly in the entire grade and he Was paired up with me to help me and I remember

01:31:44

I thought everything that he was gonna say was gonna go over my head He was gonna just think I was just some idiot, you know Like nobody that is somebody that just didn't deserve his time this kid basically took his his level 10 and brought it to my level 2 and His terminology

01:32:00

I understood Um, he brought himself to my level so I could understand bit by bit

01:32:07

I was like a level 5 after that conversation and it's because he took himself down Humbled himself if you will and took it to where I was at level 2 if he came at me at a level 8

01:32:20

I'd be like, I I'm so not I don't understand I'd get frustrated, you know And I think that's the point is that he understood what he knew so well that he could come to me and Explain it to me at a level 2 because he's been at a level 2 and he knew how to explain that to a level 2, you know, and that's literally what

01:32:38

I tried to do It's like if I understand that you're at a level, you know, I'm not trying to like put us all at levels But it's like if you have a new

01:32:44

Christian for example, or anybody you try to see it from their perspective You're like, okay, where are you at with?

01:32:49

Yeah. Yeah, and so you can you can actually effectively have that conversation Well, yeah, I mean

01:32:55

Walt that's one of the things I love to when I listen to Walter Martin's lectures. You can always Listen you always have to think of the audience that he's talking to and one of the things that you're audience

01:33:04

Yeah, he was so gifted that he was so Walter Martin was so brilliant I mean, there's many ways in which he was a walk -in library

01:33:11

But he had the ability to explain very complex issues in his audience's native tongue

01:33:16

And I remember there's an episode I think there's actually at the end of our Harry Krishna episode with Alexander Larson Where Walter Martin was doing a lecture on Harry Krishna?

01:33:26

But then the very end because what are people trying to experience as a hurry Christian? They're trying to experience this like supernatural

01:33:34

Esoteric experience at the very end. He goes the only way you can have the ultimate, you know

01:33:39

All these things are counterfeit the old the only ultimate Real trip the soul like the spiritual trip a soul can take is an is a radical encounter with Jesus Christ of Nazareth But he basically explained the gospel through like what they're trying to reach out and grasp

01:33:55

And he have this ability to kind of match both things There's another example two and one of his lectures errors of positive confession.

01:34:03

He's talking to a very charismatically inclined audience talking about aspects of healing or even testing the

01:34:11

Supernatural and he said even if an angel up here if the angel appeared tonight and said I have come to you come forward my people

01:34:17

And be healed you can talk listen to this more than once He goes believe me me and might be in the pastors.

01:34:23

We'd be asking him like what do you believe about? Christ is Christ Though the is

01:34:28

Christ the Son of God and he goes believe me if he said well some of us say this and some of Us say that believe me.

01:34:34

We'd be exercising that angel very quickly He goes, but if he said Jesus Christ is

01:34:39

Lord God Jehovah in the human flesh and I am here, you know as a messenger But it's like all theologically theologically accurate.

01:34:46

He goes welcome brother angel, right? Yeah, so but he was doing it as a point because he knew his audience and I think that's one that yeah

01:34:54

And I think too you have to understand Like what is the mindset of someone coming out of the new age and I think you also you have to give a lot of grace

01:35:02

I mean you think about the levels and the things that you experienced and sometimes you know, there are some people who probably if they saw the younger the

01:35:10

Younger version of you and you said something out there like from this book They might go a little cave stage on you as you mentioned.

01:35:18

No one said something with grace You know just one of the areas that I I see like I understand like a lot of times someone who comes out of the

01:35:25

New age, you know, and so I'm it just has to do with the reality of what they believe that Yeah, they usually have they've experienced some level of trauma and they go to the new the new age as a coping mechanism

01:35:39

And a lot of times the communities based around there are like very loving very giving

01:35:44

I mean we had Teresa Gentry on she explained that through the one, you know, the cafe she worked at over in San Francisco And even a lot of the festivals she went to a burning man

01:35:52

But yeah But eventually what you're trying to attain is the sacred esoteric knowledge

01:35:59

And then we do come to the reality that you know, that is Satanic deception you're attaining that knowledge via satanic power and satanic deception a lot of times people come out of the new age

01:36:11

Like they have their own sort of new age cage stage or ex new age cage stage where all of a sudden they tend to be

01:36:18

Very almost conspiratorial We're all of a sudden they believe that Everything belongs to Satan almost because everything was

01:36:25

I was so deceived. Like how do I not know like what do I even grasp? I'm afraid like what do we even do seen as ironic? So yeah, so I know what

01:36:32

I'm talking about That's what I observed in that in that Facebook group that I yeah Because you got it.

01:36:38

God is very strategic when he does his Providence I tell you yeah The fact that I went to a legalistic church and the fact that I learned so much about Jehovah's Witnesses.

01:36:48

I Knew I knew legalism when I saw it, you know what I mean? Like I it was it was just it's who a

01:36:53

Jehovah's Witness everything's demonic to the to the church I went to everything's worldly. It's like you have these words and I'm like, okay

01:37:01

I definitely think that there's and so I got I got exposed to that Really early on coming out of these beliefs because it's almost like I learned

01:37:12

What fear look like like religious fear and it was like, okay I know that's not good but I also know what

01:37:18

I wasn't wasn't good either and it was just interesting how I Simultaneously learned these things and the way

01:37:24

I'd like to put it like whenever you're what I like to do in the way I think about it. I remember in a sociology class when

01:37:31

I was earning I think it was my first degree and We one of the things that she was telling us is whenever you were it was like people skills

01:37:40

All right. So like this is kind of where I got this example from but I use it in religious Yeah metaphors. She was saying, you know, like they did this study in Italy, right with a

01:37:50

Soup, it was instant soup. We're gonna send these people instant soup and see how they like it We're gonna do a market study and people loved it.

01:37:58

People ate it up and they're like, oh, yeah, let's go. Let's go do this This instant soup thing.

01:38:03

Well, we're gonna market it right and They do and they lose their shirts. They lost everything.

01:38:09

They're like, why isn't people bought? Why aren't people buying it? Like they loved it when we tried it and we did the sample the problem they did and this is what

01:38:16

I think the parallel is is that they didn't actually go learn the culture of The city the town that they were selling this in to them

01:38:26

It's a sign of love how much time you spend making dinner for your family So if you had instant soup that only took a minute to make like they didn't know that they didn't know the culture

01:38:37

So I think that's the whole point is that I kind of want to give you know, hearty soup, you know

01:38:43

I want to know the audience that I'm speaking to so I can effectively reach them Yeah, and I kind of take that if if somebody's in the new age,

01:38:49

I kind of know okay, I have to kind of take a philosophical point here, you know, and We have to approach before we even get into like certain aspects of Scripture.

01:38:57

I'm like, okay. Well, what do you think about truth? You know, like what, you know, they're just certain aspects that you have to approach with a

01:39:04

Jehovah's Witness I would take a different tack a Mormon same thing Mormons are hard to pin down lately anyway, but yeah

01:39:09

You know, it's like, you know what they know It's like can you just tell me what you believe and admit it then we can get somewhere

01:39:14

So, yeah, I think even to like in the world, especially, you know I've seen people who just they get fresh out of the new way

01:39:21

They're brand new Christians and they're on fire and they just want to go talk about Jesus to everyone. That was me

01:39:26

Yeah, yeah, but sometimes they get it's a can there's a love in which that's a good thing But also it can be like heart before the horse to where you actually need to be

01:39:34

You need to get grounded and you need to get discipled and understand. Okay. Well, what what is it about Jesus?

01:39:39

Can you can you name me five verses in the Bible that emphatically so that Jesus is God It reminds me of the

01:39:45

Twitter pated stage. So I call this a Twitter pated stage So like I get saved I was totally Twitter pated at 16.

01:39:50

I was totally just I love Jesus This is amazing. Like I felt Amazing like I felt really good and what happens is that people kind of want to like chase after that, right?

01:40:01

They chase chase after that feeling but they don't know really in the beginning of a relationship if you parallel it

01:40:07

Oh, I feel amazing. This person's perfect and everything feels so good, but you don't really know the person

01:40:14

You know, I just like it's a progress, you know something that you have to kind of settle down and do and look into right, you know

01:40:22

Yeah, I didn't I after all that happened Years went by I had my second child in 2014 and actually kind of took a little break after that and I might actually make a separate video about my whole art journey because after that I got into art

01:40:36

Which I I'll put a pin in that for now and save that for my channel, but that's another long story

01:40:42

But yeah, I got into art all this stuff and then around 2016

01:40:47

I started getting back into like okay And started going more online and I didn't actually start doing anything with my youtube channel until 2000 the end of 2018 beginning of 2019

01:41:00

Yeah, and that it just took off but people don't realize my roots like they don't realize you know

01:41:05

Like I this was a progressive thing. I've had people at say you've been through some saying things and seen some things

01:41:10

And People haven't seen the things I've seen But I've had people say that I'm a new

01:41:19

Christian that I shouldn't I'm like you you're new here Yeah, you know like no, I'm not, you know

01:41:24

I've actually been around for a while, but I only just started people assume that just because my youtube channel got started

01:41:30

Like I don't know maybe year and a half two years old. Yeah that I'm a new Christian And it was just like no at 2000.

01:41:37

I would say, you know, 2006 or when I was 16 I Got saved, but I just I didn't know any theology

01:41:43

I didn't know what I knew or why I believe it and it wasn't until 2011 But it's like all those years taught me so much.

01:41:51

Yeah so much and I'm still learning. Oh, man every day I pray to God. I'm like, please just Take me down a few notches like teach me not to mess this up I feel like I'm stewarding, you know, like this ministry, but um, well, yeah

01:42:06

I mean, it's interesting to You know, I think in all of this, you know, we're talking about, you know

01:42:12

The importance of theology because everything you know, there was that meme It's like every single year when

01:42:18

I get the Facebook reminders of like my old theological pose Yeah, and so I think there's a lot with that There's the importance of theology and the importance of always renewing your mind and becoming more conformed to the image of Christ But I think there also is a level where you know, you see like where God's taken you

01:42:42

There's a level in which you do have to show grace to other people who are not where you're at Yeah, or you're at the very beginning and so because I think on one level

01:42:50

I know we're talking about this the other day There's a fine line. Obviously, there is a dividing line. Shout out to James White Yep Where anything much in your second

01:43:00

John 9 where it says anyone who goes too far does not abide in the doctrine of Christ Hath does not have

01:43:06

God so there is a level in which you do cross over where you're no longer in the camp

01:43:11

But there's also a level to where you think about the story of the lady it's one of my favorite stories in the gospel of the lady with You know with the bleeding problem for over a decade and she's like if I could just touch the hem of Jesus garment

01:43:25

Like I would be made well, and this is a very Who knows what's going on her mind?

01:43:30

It's like it seemed to me like a very superstitious Convoluted very blurry, you know, just not really let me just figure this out, you know

01:43:39

But Christ ends up honoring that faith So there's levels in which you know theology does matter, but there's a line in but there's a lot there's an area there's a line in between the two, but I think that the guiding principle in that is that If someone is an error anyone who's a brand new person coming out of the

01:43:57

New Age You know, they're gonna probably have a lot of things where they're gonna have certain errors I mean, I think even like one of the dangers that I have concerns over Is that sometimes the allure of the

01:44:08

New Age is that that lure and that lust for like secret esoteric knowledge? Yes, a lot of New Agers special Yeah a lot of New Agers get will come into the body of Christ with still that desire and that allure to find the secret things

01:44:22

And that's why I might rattle the cages here I think that's why a lot of people a lot of people coming out of the

01:44:28

New Age or even Ex -New Agers they tend to get attracted toward things like the Hebrew roots or even like the

01:44:34

King James only or just Anything that has to do with a little a little extra secret hidden knowledge like a little why

01:44:40

I we're special We know things I know this is the this is the the Christianity iOS update that no one else has except me

01:44:48

So yeah, shout out to Apple. Sorry You're not There is that allure so I'm kind of jumping on a couple of things but I Think didn't like there is a level.

01:45:02

We do have to show grace and compassion, but we also need to help them Avoid those pitfalls, but also like help them along that way in that level of sanctification

01:45:12

And that's where your discernment comes in. Yeah, and you I know that you had a few good things to say about this before I want me to talk to you have anything to add to that No, I think

01:45:19

I think that's pretty much the thing like if You're a lost sheep. There's a reason why you got lost, right?

01:45:25

There's there's many different things that play into that But there's also a reason and purpose behind it because if you're a sheep you will be brought back into the fold

01:45:33

But those who depart from us were never of us to begin with so just seeing where you are now and in the faith

01:45:39

I would say that you were sheep. I mean that that's that can be my only conclusion. I think it's a biblical conclusion

01:45:44

I think that there's like you've you've said there's Providence There's sovereignty behind it to create the person who you are today

01:45:51

What you know like God uses those things for our good in his glory for those who love

01:45:56

God for those who are called according To his purposes. Yeah, and I mean in our lives every single one of us

01:46:02

We should be a living testimony of that because we're not Jesus We're not perfect And if we start thinking that we're perfect and we're better than this person over here that person over there which causes us to not

01:46:12

Have any sympathy for them or comfort them in their afflictions, then you're losing part of the gospel there

01:46:18

You're losing part of it because you're not Jesus. We got that we got to amplify Jesus Not not ourselves like God opposes the proud, but he gives grace to the humble

01:46:27

Yeah And I think that's one reason why Jerry at the beginning of the podcast you were saying you know like Styles and stuff like that's why

01:46:32

I love cultish by the way people don't know like even before I even went on YouTube I used to listen to cultish like all the time.

01:46:38

I'm like oh, I love cultish So it's really cool Yeah, I've been out here multiple times and it's it's cool

01:46:44

So, I mean, I I think that that's awesome but that's one reason why I like your guys's stuff too was I think you all had just a way about yourself and the way that you do things as well and I think that that kind of drives the love for for the ministry and and for Jesus because Like I said,

01:47:02

I don't I don't look ministry is like Literally if like you were to research this and I did a study on this on what ministry is it's service like you're literally serving

01:47:11

Mm -hmm, and that's you're ministering to so I think of like YouTube I didn't realize that anything that I did was gonna resonate with this many people.

01:47:20

I'm I mean It was just really interesting and cool how they did that but now looking back and there's still so many roads to go down and So much growth to do.

01:47:30

Mm -hmm. I feel like God it's like a training period Yeah, it's like it's I feel kind of looking back now.

01:47:37

That's kind of how it was and it's it's You're stewarding these these these gifts that you know, he gives us whether it's art whether it's humor comedy

01:47:48

Teaching whatever it is and YouTube has been a great outlet because I had a lot to get over you know when it came to being a woman in ministry, especially that actually took a lot of growth and Things to learn about and Funnily enough.

01:48:05

So something else that I do too is I actually make videos for cross -examine with Frank Turek. I'm on the apologetics team there

01:48:10

Awesome. Yeah, it's me with John McRae and Elisa Childers and we do these short clips that are only found on cross -examine and That's awesome.

01:48:18

Yeah, I'd love it but what this is what's cool about it is that They have this thing called CIA that they do every year and it's cross -examine

01:48:26

Academy and you know If anybody knows Frank Turek, he's a big apologist He's very big about you know, defending the faith and he's done a lot of debates with like Hitchens.

01:48:34

He's debated No, has he debated Hitchens? Yes, he has and he's debated a few a prominent atheist and so I mean that's just his wheelhouse, but one of the things

01:48:42

I remember going to this conference at CIA and It's mean like a handful of other women like just a few of us and this is before maybe right as I got started on YouTube and this was a

01:48:54

I can't remember it wasn't that long ago, but I Remember how kind and courteous they were like they went out of their way to kind of like Just be and it wasn't like they were overly excessive

01:49:10

They literally made us feel like we were one of the most special people there. Mm -hmm because we were women

01:49:15

Yeah, like thank you. You know like this you guys are the future like, you know, it was it was It I didn't feel like a pariah.

01:49:22

I didn't feel like I didn't fit in it was it was nice Yeah, and it was like I remember feeling

01:49:29

So like it had broken whatever was broken from that it took it with took the strongmen of God You know to kind of come alongside the brothers in Christ that kind of show like, okay

01:49:39

This isn't actually how this is You know and there's there's a lot of growth that went from that because the other thing that you're into in this new age

01:49:44

I was more of a progressive Christian to now that I know there's a name for it And this is important to when

01:49:50

I I didn't know there was a name for this. I didn't realize there was a name For what I was in it was just higher spirituality.

01:49:57

It was a higher form of Christianity and spirituality This is what Jesus was actually trying to say in reality

01:50:02

It was new age new thought and I was very progressive and so there was a feminism there that had to be broken to that Was not healthy.

01:50:10

I think that there's You know here we are in this culture right now kind of not not to get off track or anything

01:50:16

But like, you know social justice all this stuff A part of me can even understand that to like some sort of aspect, but I'm like, oh man, we have over corrected

01:50:24

We are in the ditch We are on we were totally you know, like there you could see some progress

01:50:30

I guess and like a culturalistic way But maybe in like a in a secular way

01:50:36

But yeah, there was some healing that had to go there But yeah, I kind of have to these these, you know men and women, you know that were apologists that were in this kind of camp

01:50:47

There was a respect there that I have honestly never seen in the church before So it was nice.

01:50:53

That was very refreshing and it helps me kind of realize. Okay, I can do this Yeah, YouTube is an outlet

01:50:59

I can do and not feel like, um, but you know, I'm like doing something horrible Praise God.

01:51:05

Yeah You know on a way just on a personal level I mean you're you've been one of the biggest like Encouragements like a multiple time just like reaching out to me and and there's been times there's been times to where it's like you know, there's challenges where you get like that the review or like someone sends you a message or a comment we're just I Look, I look at the comments.

01:51:24

I like there's a couple of comments Threads right now and calls. I'm like, that's a dumpster fire, right?

01:51:32

Sorry good shout out shout out to all our fans who commented sorry But I'm saying is it's just sometimes, you know,

01:51:39

I give it I kind of let it be a free -for -all people expressing their opinions There's been times where there's like a review or like someone leaves a comment like it cuts

01:51:47

Breaks or a meme. Yeah, I mean like it breaks the fourth wall. It's like I think it once or twice

01:51:53

Like I sent you something and it was like I feel terrible right now We swapped notes and it's like I would say at least all three maybe four times a week

01:52:01

Like it doesn't end but at least that many times a week on my youtube channel. I get rebuked for being on YouTube Talking about spiritual things like being a

01:52:13

Christian. Yeah, because I'm a woman at least. Oh, yeah, and it's I let it stay I don't delete them because I want people to see this like this is something that you know

01:52:22

Well people say the same thing about summer and joy and she illusions like oh, yeah, they're just women so that they're not Yeah, they're it's like this isn't a quote the same thing

01:52:29

Corinthians Timothy like all the same scriptures and like yeah a woman This is the podcast That issue too is typically is it's like well

01:52:39

Who is your pastor then if you're giving me this rebuke because I know I'm not a pastor and I'm not sitting here as a

01:52:45

Pastor exegeting the word to you. Do you not have a pastor? It's actually a response. Are you not in the local respond to them?

01:52:52

Cuz I'm like, oh, yeah, it is Careful, I think jokingly like I feel like YouTube comments.

01:52:57

It's almost like this this portal It's like it's like this a cultic portal you open up you like open.

01:53:03

It's not responding the the comments on YouTube It's like this. Yeah, like entity almost like that's over entities are like start flying out of like the

01:53:10

YouTube comment sections a dangerous thing But yeah, that's funny. But yeah, I think it I think what's also indicative

01:53:16

It's just that you talk about things being polarizing even sometimes in different like online ministries we kind of like start competing and polarizing it against each other and I think one of the things we try to do a cultish to is

01:53:29

Try and reach for the common ground of like, what do we have in common healthy way in a healthy way?

01:53:35

Like how can we actually align together because you know, just the world's incredibly polarized right now And I think we need to look at you know, just the car.

01:53:43

What do we have in common? how can we put together constructions that are the conversations that are constructive whether it's you whether it's

01:53:49

Lisa whether it's Mike winger or Josh Lewis, my brain was like frowns to Joshua Childers Mashing names so Yeah so all that being said

01:54:04

I think especially right now is that we need to kind of work together to try and band together to Try and really give answers of hope to people that could

01:54:10

I mean the world's world's only gonna get crazier in my humble opinion and we just we need to be able to give during times of uncertainty is when

01:54:20

You know people are you know gonna ask questions like there's me there might be someone who has this whole world view

01:54:26

And but all of a sudden they look at something happens with Kovat like safe Jumping back to Kovat all of a sudden like they lose their business

01:54:35

Right, or they lose a loved one to Kovat or something like that and they're like, well, is this my fault?

01:54:40

Did I attract this into my life and then they're dealing with this guilt and what do I do? What do

01:54:46

I do with this guilt? What do I where I place this guilt on if the universe if the world is just let's universal impersonal consciousness yeah, and the thing is, okay, so that's really important too because to know about like evil and When you're in this mindset, okay, you have to understand the work that goes into thing

01:55:04

It's not just like oh you have to stay positive. You literally think that Your thoughts are

01:55:11

Energetic magnetic is more specifically the word I'm gonna use and then you attract that back

01:55:17

Here's the thing. Is that God? sometimes Sometimes hurtful things are how he takes you down a few pegs and Gets your attention so that you realize okay you a you didn't attract this to yourself you don't have that kind of power to do that, but that's really how some of the best stuff is how he works in those ways and Whenever you get to a point and this is where I see a lot in hyper charismatic situations is and I've heard people

01:55:42

Like well -known youtubers who are hyper charismatic that believe this that if you don't have enough faith Like if you if you have this happen, it is because you didn't have enough faith

01:55:52

You didn't get your healing because you don't have enough faith Yeah You didn't sow your seed whatever it was and those are very similar things that I would hear in and learn in new thought just worded differently and I think it's a good reminder that It's useful to kind of understand that bad things can still be good things you know that God doesn't and this is the thing is that it was always taught that there is no

01:56:15

God wouldn't will something negative on Your life. Mm -hmm. Uh -huh. And it's like all this stuff and this is why this is why if people are wondering why

01:56:24

I would say Anything or be outspoken about word of faith This is why you basically have a more

01:56:29

Christian eyes version of what I believed It's more direct and it's from pulpits and it's basically this and this mishmash together.

01:56:36

Yes. It's it's the Bible plus It's Jesus plus and it's it's taking Taking that whole concept.

01:56:43

So yeah, you were you were talking about that and I'm like, yeah It's a good point to kind of point out that those things are useful whenever you have an appropriate

01:56:51

Christian worldview. Oh, that's good. Well, I think we've covered a lot of ground here and this times flew right by Yeah, I did tell

01:57:00

Andrew I just say we're almost on in a couple months It'll be on the second year anniversary when

01:57:06

Stephen came out here So when when all of a sudden we're on the peak of like March 2020 like right after the state of emergency when everything was

01:57:13

Crazy, so we should maybe try and like shoot for like a follow -up to kind of get it back out here You know to do like a two to your reunion.

01:57:19

We can Steven to come out here to two year So, yeah, it'll be great two years after Kovac where were you

01:57:27

I know we'll be all Play back out. We'll float. We'll fly out here Andrew. Like we'll all be together in here.

01:57:33

I'll just be a cloud of glory Cameras leak oil again. Yeah. Yes Yeah, anyway, yeah, so Go less feathers, you know, whatever you have it so We went there.

01:57:48

Yeah, so this has been a great episode. Thank you all for listening. Melissa. Thank you for Coming on again

01:57:55

Always a pleasure. And if you all enjoy this episode go ahead and let us know what you thought leave a comment on our social

01:58:01

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01:58:11

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01:58:21

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01:58:29

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