Romans 3, Steve Lawson Issues, Pietism, Anabaptism, Sacralism

Well greetings and welcome to the dividing line, I'm not having run everything today, so we actually had music I did fix that by the way.

It's Elmedia player I couldn't remember that name, but it's now in the dock so I can get to the music real fast now

Anyway, I have a feeling that for the next couple weeks. I might be doing a few of those programs again

And hopefully I will do a better job than I did last time Start off with A little

Look at a biblical text and then talk about some of the current events going on I haven't

I don't know how long ago it was now that we Because I know we were in the other studio the last time that We talked about the two part

Romans Silliness that's what it is Just silly

We haven't heard anything from anybody Nobody cares, but if you weren't listening there's this

Wild -eyed Let's find a way to get around Calvinism.

There's a lot of wild -eyed Let's find a way to get around a gal who's stuff out there from Molin ism onward

Um, but it's this idea that Romans is only written to the

Jews in the first part and then switches over the Gentiles and just this and It's just so disconnected from the text.

It's the classic example of taking a lens and You know creating your own narrative and then reading the text of the

Bible through it. It's isogesis on steroids from people who should know better, but the the drive to avoid

What scripture teaches about man's nature and God's nature is very very strong and the traditions of men that go along with that anyway

The only reason I mentioned this I have not looked at any of The videos

I think they're up to like eight now. I think I saw on Twitter Eight videos

Promoting this stuff. There's no reason to we refuted the first two Mainly the first one which was foundation.

So without a foundation building can't stand it's been refuted There's no reason to waste further time on it

But You can't help having encountered stuff like that to keep running into the refutation of such foolishness when you're just reading scripture and I was considering I was thinking looking at Romans chapter 3 and how important this text is and I I I Fear that because it is so important and it's been addressed so many times that people

Stop Thinking about it deeply And that's that becomes dangerous.

It becomes it we all know, you know Romans 3 23 I I remember

Wow I don't know how many years ago it was but we had this little teeny

Baptist Church out in the West Valley and we were doing this Vacation Bible school thing and memorizing scripture, you know

Romans 3 23 everybody knows Romans 3 23 But I really wonder how many people know

Romans 3 23 in its actual context what it's actually talking about And one says for all of sin is talking about Jews and Gentiles That is one of the dangers in memorizing singular texts

That are one sentence in the middle of paragraph type of a thing We should

I think in our scripture memory Make sure we understand what the text is saying, you know, at least read what comes before and afterwards so you have an idea, you know

You're not getting because sometimes we memorize a traditional interpretation with the text without even realizing and Then we struggle when we encounter

Information against that interpretation because we have somewhat in our minds coalesced the

Interpretation with the text itself I'm gonna pull this up just a little bit more and I'm gonna back off on the volume a little bit

I'm still getting used to the hearing aids, you know and Sometimes I'm just loud there's even a thing in my app sort of like too much me

Which is the it's just the exact opposite I think it was Scott Johnson.

Yeah, Scott Johnson in Twitter He had he had said something about I said the divine lines coming up in six minutes

He says I was just getting ready to watch Tuesday because I couldn't watch live out helping a friend. I said, well, it's Richard's fault

And so he responded as a fellow sound guy. I have much sympathy for rich. Well Look, I was a sound guy.

Okay, when you're running sound at a Southern Baptist Church And in fact,

I think it my sound days were already done when you first met me Oh, yeah, you did sound long before I came along or I'd ever touched a soundboard your dad taught me a lot of oh, yeah

I learned. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, cuz when my dad taught me stuff at the radio station He had actually built the equipment house working.

I mean built it, you know From from the ground up designed it

Keep on going here because you're just letting people know how much more sympathy I actually deserve from you

You almost have a little cult following of people, but I have had other people say to me recently

They go look we get it. We understand what you're putting up with from that guy and so we have competing little groups out there that You know talk about what's going on the dividing line.

It's Lots of fun. Anyways, what were you talking about? Well Moses was in the bulrushes. That's the that's how dr

DC Martin would express the fact that he just chased a rabbit off into the woods someplace and and He got back to where he was supposed to be talking about Yeah I'm just gonna get back to Romans 3

No word where all the rest that stuff was going. I lost the lost the the plot As it was going off into the woods there someplace anyways back to Romans chapter 3 and I was talking about the memorizing scripture and sometimes we memorize an interpretation along with it and then when we've

We see evidence against that it's harder for us to process it.

And so it's important I think when you're memorizing scripture to Do so with a proper interpretation of it or at least recognize that you are memorizing an interpretation as well all this take us back to Romans 3 and After talking about the advantage of the

Jews they had been given the scriptures Because remember Romans 1 Universal Romans 2.

Oh, you're included as well Jews Romans 3 Well, then if that's the case what advantage they have they were given the scriptures promises so on and so forth

So 3 9 then brings all this together, which is one of the real problems with that. Silly silly

Isagetical theory is that Paul very purposely brings everybody together

Romans 3 9 what then are we better? Not at all for we have already charged that both

Jews and Greeks are all under sin so here's

You're about to get what's called a katina of Old Testament passages primarily from the

Psalter beginning in verse 10 and going down through verse 18 and I think it's always good that Translations give you some indication when you're reading an

Old Testament passage is being quoted in the new LSB NASB, you know put these in all caps which you know in the modern age is yelling and screaming but it actually is indicative of an

Old Testament citation, it's important to see but the whole point of this text is to demonstrate that scripture has always been consistent in its message of Man is

Universally fallen Jews or Greeks there's no difference and when you read through it, it's somewhat depressing

But it's realistic there is none righteous not even one and You can always tell when you're talking to a

Pelagian People like that and there are legions out there They will

There's always exception. There's always exception and that the point You know

Paul's gonna give his own interpretation Down in verse 19 so that Every mouth may be shut and all the world may become accountable

God. That's his own interpretation. That's his intention so if your interpretation of him

Turns his own conclusion on its head you might be misinterpreting

What what's going on here that's that's most probably but there is none righteous not even one

There is none who understands There is none who seeks for God.

There is no God seeker literally Luke Estin hot

X a tone Tom. They on there is no God seeker and It's not as much of a

Phrase today as it used to be, you know seeker sensitive churches and stuff like that But it's always struck me

There is no seeker if someone's seeking it's because they have already been sought It's the response to God's grace

There is none who seeks for God all have turned aside together. They have become worthless not exactly propping up Exaltation of humanism there.

There is none who does good there is not even one their throat is an open tomb

With their tongues, they keep deceiving being being truthful is something to do with Fundamental sinfulness.

Yeah. Yeah boy. There is so little truth Truth speaking today.

It's it's astonishing The poison of asps is under their lips

So but their speech Destroys those who are hearing it.

God takes seriously what we say and The worldview from which we say it

Which is something that we need to be telling the entire ruling class Today it is a given you expect any politician to lie

You expect politician to lie now, I would say That if you hold to an

Ostensibly conservative world that continues to claim to have at least some level of fidelity

With the Christian worldview that there should at least be some guilt in your lying But the progressives the leftists the

Marxists Lying is considered a good thing as long as it promotes the narrative

In fact, you can't really define lying because there is no objective Moral ethical truth.

There is no objective truth at all So you can you can change facts you can change numbers you can claim

You know in this current election there are people there Pamela Harris's representatives because as As Another interview has demonstrated this woman can't do interviews.

And in fact, you know, I'll be honest with you after the debate I started seeing those images of the earrings

And I thought oh, come on come on come on and then I watch her in any other context and I have to go

Yeah, I think so. I think so because she she just can't she She cannot she is a word salad she can not possibly formulate rational thoughts

So yeah, that really makes me wonder about that particular thing, but her representatives

I mean, you know there we inherited this disinflation like It's 1984 all over again.

It is take that take the newspaper edit it out change it Remove the numbers put new numbers in Whatever It's it's amazing.

But when you think about it most of the time we read the last portion of verse 13 the poison of Asps is under their lips and we're just like a poetry

You know, it's a poetic way of saying what? What what are you saying?

Because 13 and the first and and 14 are about speech

Their throat is an open tomb Now you gotta understand from the

Jewish perspective an open tomb dead bodies ritual uncleanness. It's it's impurity. Okay?

So there's no there's no an open tomb is a horrific thing the smell the degradation

Of the body, etc, etc Their throat is an open tomb that the

I mean that's a pretty intimate part of your body That's where the breath is going in and out.

It's where you eat and That's where the speech originates from and their throat is an open tomb

With their tongues they keep deceiving Falsehood lack of truth

This is descriptive of the fallen man's speech So the poison of Asps is under their lips whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness so Destructive speech speech that it does not seek to honor one's creator is destructive speech and I've heard lots of good sermons on the tongue

James's discussions in that fine work That we should read very regularly

Extremely convicting But we also need to make the connection in our thinking

That when you put your fingers on these buttons which again Make an interesting clicking sound

So if you don't know why I said that Once I got my hearing aids, it's like I had forgotten.

There's a little clicking sound I Little things. Hey at least

At least I'm I'm Joyous about little little things like that. I'm not sitting around. Oh, man.

I've got hearing aids now who cares I'm thankful that the technology exists When we put our fingers on These keys it's still speech

And I think for a lot of us we don't We don't see it that way. I Have definitely a stronger control on what

I say to people Then when you're sitting alone In a room and you're typing

I think that's I think we will find out someday the day of judgment.

Just how real that is Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness? I I was raised someone said something.

Oh, man, I wish I'd I Wish someone had I had written this down someone

I had picked up a saying a long long time ago Profanity is for those who lack the intelligence to express themselves by any other means

But someone gave me someone posted something it was very similar to that, but it was better than mine and I've I've already lost

I could probably scroll back but it would take forever. It was on Twitter And it wasn't so much a lack of intelligence as it was a lack of And not energy, but just a desire to speak correctly and to express yourself

But yeah, whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness that is

That is a universal condemnation that today my goodness

I I Watch videos I hear things on TV and it's just that the foul

Language is just so it's just Natural to people there's just some people that they they don't know how to Say a sentence about dropping an f -bomb into it starting with it put in the middle and put the end to It's just whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness their feet are swift to shed blood

Well, we we certainly see that all around the world we see that on our streets

But today it just seems like or we see it so blatantly

Given how much we know now is in the the murder of unborn children, and it's just their feet are swift

Kamala Harris is so dedicated to the murder of unborn children that it's just I cannot imagine the judgment

That is going to be heard And the entire the entire Mechanism that that murders unborn children the judgment that is coming

Cannot be imagined cannot be imagined Destruction and misery are in their paths

They don't sin does not build Sin destroys sin breaks down Sin does not end misery it creates misery and the path of peace they have not known you want you want to see peace

In our day you want to you know, we're talking about peace accords, you know Ukraine Russia Lebanon all the rest of stuff the path of peace they have not known and I I have to sadly make the

Application today it just you know, you can okay disagree all you want.

It just seems to me that from what I Have been Reading and the people

I've been listening to It really does seem like much certainly the

Ukrainian conflict It's all on us Look at a map most people

Didn't do well in geography class if even have geography class any longer

That was not emphasized even in some of the good schools that I went to public schools back in the

But look at a map sometime Ukraine is is

It's it's right. It's it goes into Russia, you know

I mean, it's right there and turning that nation into the

CIA depot that we did and It's very plain that we did. I mean

People the media doesn't want to talk about it But we had biological labs they're doing doing probably gain -of -function research and You know, we had every kind of listening station probably still do in the planet there and Now talking about making that NATO That is how you start

World War three. It really is and We almost started World War three

Long time ago. The Russians almost started World War three a long time ago when they tried to put nuclear missiles in Cuba And we said we ain't gonna do it.

We will go to war with you Well, Ukraine's closer to Russia's in Cuba is the

United States so Because it's right there

We don't know the path of peace and the only the king of peace can introduce the world to the path of peace

So much of the foolishness that takes place internationally Would be destroyed if there was the slightest respect for God's law, but there hasn't been for a long time we pray for that day

Path of peace they have not known there is no fear of God before their eyes man. That is Just don't be honest with me.

Look at our culture. Look at the at the West look at Europe Look at Canada.

Look at Australia. Look at the United States Would it ever cross your mind to say?

Oh my There's so much fear of God Represented in those nations.

Now look, I remember when I first started going over to Europe About 2005 one of the things that people would say when they would visit the

United States and visit Europe You've got a church. You've got three churches on every corner There was such a vast difference back then.

Well, okay But how many of them are gospel preaching churches to be another question the woman would have to ask

But the idea of the fear of God This is one of the this is the essence of why

I say secular humanism is the greatest enemy. We're Facing I know

I know somebody said oh, no, it's sin and death Christ is dealt with that. I'm talking about the enemies to be put under his feet and secular humanism

Removes all reason all foundation For having a fear of God There's no judgment

There's a see all this stuff if there's not going to be a day of judgment Who cares?

Who care? there is no fear of God before their eyes that is a

Universally condemnatory statement Which would mean that to fear

God Well, that's the beginning of Oh wisdom so man in his secular rebellion

Demonstrates his utter lack of wisdom So having said all those things now

We know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are in the law So that every mouth may be shut and all the world may become accountable to God Because by the works of the law no flesh should be justified in his sight

For through the law comes the knowledge of sin. So we Here's we need to know we need to have the knowledge of sin and what we've just discovered is

That law of God not necessarily just the Mosaic Code but the law of God that's been written on the conscience that will tell even the

Gentile who's never encountered The Old Testament scriptures that they are not to lie.

They're not to kill. They are not to rape. They're not to murder That has been revealed by God The the reason for this the reason for the

Clarity of Revelation Romans chapter 1 the content of that revelation even the conscience

Romans chapter 2 So that Every mouth may be shut and all the world may become accountable to God I have preached on this text a number of times because The picture that it presents the picture that paints is so vitally important a person

Standing before God still making excuses for their own sin is not ready to hear the message of the

Savior And we see it all the time. We see it in the in the court of law We see these people

I'm not as bad as that guy and I didn't do this and I've been and they're just made excuse excuse Excuse this is not this is not the person who's ready to hear the message

So every mouth may be shut finally The excuses stop the head goes down.

I acknowledge your authority. I acknowledge my sin whatever you say is is appropriate and Needs to be needs to be said so there's there's where Paul's going and only then

Do you then get justification by faith Righteousness of God Romans 321 and and so on so two and a half chapters

Of the bad news Necessary to be dealt with before you deal with the good news, and I've said it for years

That's the problem with evangelicalism We don't want to deal with the bad news. We don't want to proclaim the bad news all we want to do is playing the good news, but The good news without the bad news isn't really the good news any

That's that's the problem. That's the problem. So anyways a little bit of biblical material there.

We wanted to look at um I Have to stuff

Some it may have been the same day as the last program. I'm trying to remember exactly

Everybody knows that last week the Steve Lawson story broke and I have been conflicted a

Great deal by this entire thing on the one hand as a pastor

Serves as pastor in two different local churches. I know how

Very very very Complicated and challenging these types of situations are

There's always more to the story than you can possibly reveal to the public

Because there are other people there are innocent people in situations that you if you

Talk about their role Non -sinful roles you may be bringing great destruction to their lives and You can't explain that you can't talk about that and a lot of these

Watch dog Discernment groups out there that have never been involved in any of that They will just come down everybody and Automatically the elders the congregation are assumed to be bumbling fools, so they don't have any idea what in the world they're doing and this these accusations are normally made by people who have no idea what they are actually doing and so I recognize all the complexities that are there and If Steve Lawson was a brook lair there in Dallas It wouldn't be anybody's business

You know the church would need to deal with that and deal with it Biblically and properly

That's not not really even a question, but he wasn't a bricklayer and so I Forget which day it was

I think it was I think it was Tuesday Al Mohler Without Mentioning his name

Which I'll be honest with you only makes it all the louder Everybody knows what you're talking about, but you won't talk about it

I'll molar commented at the end of a chapel service that Southern Seminary about the situation he said a lot of really good stuff and encouraging stuff

But that's how it's listening at one point He says something I forget exactly

How he phrased it? But I'm sitting here going. Oh Brother there's more coming because nothing nothing else to come out

But the way he said it. I'm like he also indicated that he had talked to some students on that Thursday And had was walking on the campus and said to some students.

How you doing well actually not real good. You know and that was on Thursday and He indicated he already knew so he the way

I understood is he had been informed on Wednesday So my guess is that The big organizations that Lawson was involved with that he either was on staff with or had

Taught for them lectured on their campuses, whatever Published with him.

You know he was a busy guy So you know he was he was a regular at the

Ligonier conferences. He was a regular at the Shepherds conference and So I think my recollection was he headed up the d -min program at Masters He had some official capacity with Ligonier as well

And so he was on the road pretty constantly and I So what my guess is

You know I I thought of another situation where I had spoken with Steve Since the last program he was at the 2017

German Shepherds conference, which always sounds so funny the German Shepherds conference Had nothing to do with canines, but in May of 2017 which of course was the 500th anniversary

There was a conference in Wittenberg That was a

Shepherds conference, so it was the German Shepherds and I spoke there and Steve Lawson spoke there and My Normal recollection of that is all the stuff that happened to him on his way over.

He lost his wedding ring he lost his Mont Blanc pen you know he writes all his books on yellow pads of paper and all the rest of this stuff that had happened and The rep my recollection that whenever I saw him there was this one guy

I Think it was a student that had been assigned to him and his whole job for days was to take care of Steve Lawson Now I was a plenary speaker too, but nobody was assigned to me

I'm not saying that as a complaint. I'm saying there's no reason to there's no need to and so We did do and I had forgotten this

But I have a picture because I remember the hat that I was wearing at one point

He and I did a Q &A session, and it was just he just two of us What wasn't two of us there was a group of people there obviously, but I mean we were the only people doing the conversation

I forget who it was who was asking the questions. I think it was one of the staff members But I'm not sure if it was a breakout or what it was but I Did I did remember that and So there have been a all sorts of almost every

Q &A session at G3 that I've ever been involved with Had Steve Lawson involved with it if he was there, and he's been there for a vast majority of so anyway

Obviously they were informed Before the

Letter went out on Thursday now. I'd be really concerned because I've I've been told

I haven't listened to it, but and I've been told it's been deleted but he preached

I think the Sunday before this broke and What I've read is that there was a section in there about not judging someone based upon a hiccup in Their life, but judging them on their whole life's

Work that concerns me if that was the Sunday before So the the big

I think you know Masters Ligonier g3. I think the the big groups

Were given a heads up which is perfectly appropriate I mean if you had the guy in over and over and over and over again and no one

You know everybody said the same thing didn't see this one coming I I was even surprised to find out how old he is he's 73

Didn't I wouldn't have guessed that to be pretty honest with you I was guessing maybe late 60s, but I Stink at guessing people's ages, so I gave up on a long time ago, and don't do it with women

Be wise don't even or if you do take 20 off just for the fun of it because you'll

It's just wiser anyway So I think there was and My concern is then that I think that these further details are now coming out which who can confirm?

but if they're coming from Reliable sources may have been included in That information that may explain why molar said what he said, and I'm sitting there going

It sounds like there's more coming there's more to this than meets the eye because in my opinion, there's a vast difference between a

Moment of passion with someone of your same age One time fall and a five year long relationship that would require a

Purposeful Travel and Utilization of funds

I mean I mean that just that's just is a completely different genre and then the information

I've seen Late 20s or 25. I've seen 25 as a date as a specific age Late 20s and what other people said 25 is not late 20.

So anyway And Part of me wants to go just just leave this as a church

But the other part of me is but he wasn't he didn't do this just as a member of that church He took leadership positions in major major organizations

So What do you do about that How do you handle something like that and so I've seen the entire spectrum expressed from burn everything he's ever written, you know and Delete every sermon delete everything just absolutely memory hold it make sure that no one two years from now

Can discover anything about who Stephen Lawson ever was there are people that are on that side of things and then

I read a publisher a book publisher This morning saying

I'm not going to do that. I refuse to do that What he said that was true is still true and You know, then they'll make the argument about David and the

Psalms and and and stuff like that And most of us are just left sitting in in the middle going

I'm not really sure what's really going on here I'm concerned that right now

Anybody could put almost anything out there on the web and It might be believed even if it doesn't have any basis in reality

That's troubling that's really troubling because that can be done to anybody and there are people out there they're just oh and then the anti -reform folks that are just having themselves a

Grand old time see this Calvinist. Blah blah blah blah blah Yeah, it's

It's a royal mess and Now that this other information has come out

From Sources in the know that has to be addressed.

I I Just can't see how anyone Could say that well, let's just let's just stop talking about it and let it go away

That's that's that's gonna fester. That's gonna that's gonna encourage people to speculate further and I Just don't see how that how that works

Obviously the the best way I would think would be actually a statement from Steve Lawson himself.

That would And you know, I know I'm being

Somewhat naive here there's probably money involved here when you think about Contracts and publishing and Morals clauses and non -disclosure agreements and people sometimes wonder why

I have always been so Difficult When it comes to people who wanted us to do more be more involved in networking and stuff like that and I just A I stink at it and be

I just don't want to be a part of it I don't want to have to sign stuff Yeah, but that means you're not gonna have as big of a platform yeah, okay

I'll live with that We'll let the Lord take care of getting the word out to the people. He wants to get the word out to But I I yeah, no, there's probably a lot more to this than Then meets the eye that I could even that I could even even know

But the fact the matter is Truth is truth and You know if a

Muslim says the Sun rises in the East and sets in the West that doesn't make it wrong, right so yeah, but But how can he say one thing and then do something?

Hey, you know what? Every preacher does that every Sunday because he's that guy up there sinner and if he applied

Perfectly everything he's saying then wouldn't he live a perfect life? He doesn't

So you've got to You've got to find a balance and unfortunately situations like this

That the two sides are so extreme that stay in in the middle Very very difficult to do.

It's very very difficult to do Okay Um One of the other thing

I wanted to talk about today briefly is on Friday a

Webcast dropped on many different topics very very long and I'm saying that as someone that does the dividing line normally much longer than most webcasts and I Was discussed in it and Two of the terms that were used

To describe me. I want to talk a little bit about the two terms are pietist and Anabaptist now, let's let's start with Anabaptist because there's nothing new about that one

Baptists including Reformed Baptists Have been Painted with the term

Anabaptist since the early 1500s

And Then painted as Anabaptist by the Reformed from As we cowl prophets on I guess

You know Luther at first was a little more Open to conversation, but that Changed rapidly, especially after 1525.

So I've been calling Anabaptist many many times and When I became a

Reformed Baptist in the 19 late 1980s Because of that I spent a lot of time, you know with you know the

Radical Reformation and Books like that on The Anabaptist movement and of course there are

Southern Baptists Ergin Cantor who by the way, someone sent me a link to a Talk he gave last

Sunday at a church Hadn't heard much about him for a long time and I was clicking through it real quick I haven't had a chance to finish it but still doing the

I Went to Denny's and ate all the bacon I could find thing

About his conversion from Islam and all the rest that stuff It's just it's just sad.

It really really is but Anyway How in the world did we get on to that that's a that's a major shift but Cantor and Certain people at Southern Baptist seminaries have mowed the idea that the

Anabaptists are their actual for forbears Not that that they're not that they're not they didn't come out of the

Protestant Reformation Now there are groups that did not come out of the

Protestant Reformation You know the Mennonites and people like that they can make a good argument that They were not ever a part of the

Reformation at all But the fact is that Reformed Baptists English particular

Baptists plainly came out of the Reformed movement and Purposefully attempted to defend the propriety of their being identified with them and the term

Anabaptist unfortunately because of the Munster Rebellion in the middle 1530s simply became a

Conversation ender All you had to do to make sure someone would not be listened to at all

Was to call them an Anabaptist. So You know, that's one of the reasons

I can read Calvin and Go man, it would have been wonderful if the

Munster Rebellion hadn't taken place and he had actually sat down with an

Anabaptist of some standing and theological training to Listen to what their issues and concerns were of course by the time that would have happened for him most of the original

Anabaptist or Baptist leaders were dead Killed by the by Zwingli or by the

Lutherans or by the Catholics By everybody

It's just the best way to die in those days. Make sure you're gonna die being an

Anabaptist so and Then once Munster took place and The funny thing is

I've not done the Munster story on the dividing line I've done it, you know,

I taught Baptist Church history Earlier this year at the seminary

We went through it then and of course I did two hours on the

Sheologians, my daughter's And her friend Joy's webcast still available.

You can look up the bloody streets of Munster On the Sheologians website and I highly recommend it is without a doubt the most amazing story in all of church history

I Can't think of anything that is wilder than what took place in the

Munster Rebellion But anyway Because of what happened there people like Calvin and everyone who followed them

Using the term Anabaptist Was like what using the term racist used to be now it's been so overused.

It's not really relevant anymore, but still and I I just noticed a comment from one of our folks.

I can see some things. I'm just not in the thing 1644 London Confession started out talking about being unjustly called

Anabaptist. That's Chris telling me that and that's yes There was a deep sensitivity

To that unfair use of that term because it was so vaguely broad

I mean Anabaptist simply means re -baptized anah baptized baptized again, so if you live in a culture

Where everybody was baptized as an infant then to receive believers baptism would be to be an

Anabaptist Well, how useful is that in describing anything if if you can use a term that can describe

The pacifistic Anabaptist and there were a lot of pacifistic Anabaptist And also apply it to Jan of Leiden and The Munster rebellion and the violence and the beheadings and the polygamy

And never you know, just the the insanity that takes place at Munster if you can use the same term of those

Widely divergent things then the terms meaningless. It has no meaning at all and I don't even so what that means is you're just reading whatever you want into it and Saying I disagree with these people.

And so I'm going to just simply throw them into this category and You're you're literally putting yourself in the position of getting to redefine terms redefine the language based on your own predilections, it's just I mean there are

Anabaptists today, but they're almost all way Way left.

I mean there tend to be as woke as the day is long So, I don't know what anyone could possibly mean by calling me an

Anabaptist It's just it's historically laughable It's it's really bad for your your reputation to Say something like that.

I don't I don't get it but so and then the other term was pietist and you know pietism has a lengthy history to it

At least in history probably German pietism is the most famous form

But there have been pietistic sects All over the place and Again, it's extremely malleable about the only thing that you can say and when you look it up in a dictionary and dictionary of church history or Ecclesiology or whatever

Generally pietists are individuals who focus upon Inner life

Topics and Eschew Interaction with the world certainly

Politics Military It's an emphasis upon the internal and the spiritual

With the idea being a total separation from What goes on in in the world

Politically culturally things like that. So today

I see a lot of people using this term and In general what

I'm seeing is if someone is less focused than you are

Upon Making political statements Standing maybe even standing for Christian truth in the public square if they aren't as Dedicated as you are or this is the most important thing if they criticize

What you do in that area? They're a pietist Whether they actually believe

That There should be no involvement in the political realm

Or anything like that that's Generally not taken into account or consideration now

I Suppose a you know, if you're just If you're the head of a supposed

Christian militia, you know in the mountains of West Virginia or something

And you're getting ready to launch attacks on the US government Everybody's a pietist you because you're doing it for Jesus, you know

So I suppose you could identify me as a pietist if that's what you're doing but all somebody has to do is

Look at my public ministry forever. I Mean you can go on YouTube and watch me addressing the

Phoenix City Council and Reminding them of what happened at Weimar and the

Buchenwald concentration camp and that they as the leaders of This major city fifth largest city in the

United States They will be held accountable For the murder of unborn children that's taken place under their watch in The same way at the people of Weimar were marched out to the

Buchenwald concentration camp To see what they had allowed to happen right out right up on the hill right outside their their city and closed their eyes to it

You can go watch that. It's on YouTube unless they've taken it down. I haven't looked at all um a pietist does not go to the

Phoenix City Council and Call them to repent For their being complicit in the murder of unborn children, that's not what a pietist does

I'm a part of a church. That's the home base of end abortion now This coming

Sunday, for example My son -in -law is gonna be preaching at Apologia on Covenant theology and part of the reason is

Jeff is in Kentucky, Ohio places like this bringing pastors together and Seeking to have bills of abolition put in to the legislature's and Testifying in the political realm to the

Lordship of Jesus Christ over all things I Would have to be complaining about that to be a pietist

I've never heard anyone call apology a pietist And I can go all the way back

I was arrested only time I've ever been arrested Outside Brian Finkel's abortion clinic in January of 1989.

It's part of Operation Rescue Now I am very proud of the fact that it was not very long after that that Brian Finkel was arrested if you recall for sexually abusing his his patients and I think he died in prison if I recall correctly.

I mean he was I know he was in prison I know if he's not dead he's in prison But I think he died in prison

Just one of the most demonized men I've ever seen in my life and So I'm Rather proud of the fact that we closed him down that day

And I got to testify of the gospel at the trial and stuff like that But pietists don't do that and that was 89

Okay, so I The only the only way the only way

I can understand someone calling me an anabaptist pietist is if they're a pedo -baptist because they're the ones that generally use the anabaptist and They feel like I am criticizing their level of Not so much political activity

But their level of Teaching concerning How the church should be involved with the state

I think in this in this situation because another term that came up in within a sentence or two was sacralism and I'm gonna go a few minutes long here, but Just looking at the notes here, okay

So so I think I think that's you know sacralism Has been mocked by Stephen Wolfe Because Stephen Wolfe is a sacralist

Stephen Wolfe's view of Christian nationalism is Fundamentally and foundationally different Than my conversations with Doug Wilson on Christian nationalism where Doug admitted

Unless the Spirit of God moves unless the post -millennial hope is fulfilled There's no re there's this can't happen and Stephen Wolfe says baloney

Stephen Wolfe says we need Christian princes See and he keeps pointing back and that's what this Crusader stuff

That's why I do not understand this Crusader stuff at all because if you are a presuppositional

Theonomic post -millennial Calvinist with the Puritan hope

Stephen Wolfe is not on your side He did he's he specifically says regeneration is not required for Christian nationalism

So we're talking the sacral state of the medieval period That was inherited and he'll he'll argue.

This is what the Reformers believed. Yes, they did Just like they believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary.

It took a few decades to get rid of all of the garbage And some of us argued some people didn't get rid of all the garbage um

But I don't believe that's what defines Reformation and if it is the Reformation is over and irrelevant

Forget about it Get about the term reform. Just get rid of it If the

Reformation was about the gospel Post tenebrous Lux if that's what it's about then it's as relevant as ever been and always will be

That's a huge divide. That's a massive chasm massive chasm and so sacralism

Is the confusion of the sovereign spheres of church state and family? I'm so thankful for Joe boot and his book

Lord of Kings. I don't know why I can't remember the title that book I can see the cover of it, but I've certainly recommended it and Look it up.

You'll find it Where he works very diligently to make sure we see what those various spheres of authority are and the danger of confusion but that's what

Stephen Wolfe does and that's what happened in the sacralism that led to Well, I'll give two examples

I We've told the story

The video I have out on it is less than five minutes long if you want to look it up but I told the story of Fritz Erba and Just the massive

Contrast that struck me when I visited the Vartburg castle Seven years ago this week.

I'm seeing all the stuff coming up on Facebook. This was seven years ago this was I'm you know preached at the castle church in Wittenberg and stuff like that and Had an incredible incredible dinner at the

Vartburg castle Fairy -tale type stuff just wonderful. I always remember all of that and my thanks to Michael Fallon for all of that because he arranged it all

But The and and Kathy with sovereign will tell you because she was with me.

I I went with her early to the Vartburg castle because I wanted to see Fritz Erba's place of imprisonment and death and so she and I we go up up to where it is halfway up the spire type thing and And I'm just I'm looking down this thing

I'm looking down through that terror hole Into this windowless doorless pit that this man lived in for seven years

Now first we visited first we took the tour and I visit the room where Luther translated the

New Testament He's hiding out from the state It's a sacral

Situation he is now a heretic. So he's hiding from the state and It's only a hundred meters maybe

From That room to where Fritz Erba only a few years later now under Lutheran Political control

Fritz Erba is tied up and lowered down that hole to die in That hole why because he read the translation

Luther produced Became convinced that baptism is for believers, which it is

He was right about that But in the sacral state that made him a danger and So he's stuck in that hole and Luther knew he was there and did nothing to save his life

That's sacralism That's sacralism that's not something to hold on to and The Reformers in the future generations just as They didn't touch the

Marian stuff Luther believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary Not because he did any major study on it

At all, but because that was the tradition that they inherited well, um

There's a reason to actually believe in Semper Reformanda and no Bart didn't make it up doggone it

Stop with that foolishness There's a reason to believe

Semper Reformanda and History shows that the

Reformation continued. It didn't just stop when Calvin died. It needed to continue and Sacralism was one of the reasons it needed to continue

The other example, of course is surveyed us. I had had one of our church members asked me last night

How do you how do you process the surveyed us thing because there's a lot of people running around going late You know what?

That was that was good. Just righteous thing that they did. I mean, where's a heretic? Yes, he was and I suppose you're gonna be hunting down the

Jehovah's Witnesses tomorrow Hope not But I have defended

Calvin only insofar as saying he was a part of a

Sacral system and did nothing outside of what everybody expected everybody to do at that particular point in time

That doesn't mean it was right Doesn't mean that I think it's appropriate

To take a heretic and Surround him with green wood and Cook him because that's what that's what it is.

You don't die very fast when the when the when the wood doesn't burn hot and fast

You cook you can be there for an hour Your skin falls off your your muscles fall off your body like meat

It's horrible That's why for example with Tyndale I There would be holes in the steak and you'd put a leather thing through it and around the person's neck and before you lit the fire you'd

You'd choke them to death you'd suffocate them so that when it was lit and you were just burning a dead body

That was considered significantly more merciful than the thrashing around and screaming of someone being cooked

Of slowly over time That's not how you deal with heresy and You can say but but but but it was a it was a

Christian society Well, Calvin certainly tried to to make Geneva as Christian as possible

But it didn't fit with this theology Because you can't demand

God's electing grace To Make the majority of a particular

Culture city -state whatever now, they're much smaller back then so at least you could try but you'd be demanding

That God's purpose is right now was to make this particular place Christian and Not just Christian outwardly and there's the problem because once you make it

Christian outwardly now You're making nominalism your goal nominalism in name only And there are a few things that have brought more

Disrepute the cause of Christ than nominalism But that's what you end up getting and that's what the discussions are about today

Well nominalism is better this wacko crazies in this we're dealing with better in what way?

Is is the gospel More clearly proclaimed in the contrast to the darkness of today

Or is it better to just have a bunch of people who claim to be Christians, but never live it out These are things that should be being discussed so sacralism yes, the

Reformers were sacralist taught that forever and That was one of a number of issues

That needed to continue to be examined in light of Scripture sola scriptura

Semper Reformanda That Led to the rejection of that type of thing over time

I've said many times Calvin's writings laid the foundation for the overthrow of his own view of political authority.

They did they had to Because fundamentally if you're going to have a sacral state you're going to need a politically oriented

Church Like Rome Like Rome and that's all roads lead back to Rome if you're going to be a sacralist

I don't see how you avoid and so it's not overly shocking to me that we'll also at Thomas and a natural law theorist

That doesn't again like yeah, this all fits together But that ain't my view.

That's I ain't going there and I think there's grave dangers there and That's what that's really been all about For a while now, so there's a conversation a little bit discussion about pietism and a baptism sacralism and why it's being discussed these days and hopefully done

Without Too much in the way of swords and torches and burning anybody at stake or all the rest that stuff in the process

So hopefully that will be useful to folks. Thanks for watching the program. Like I said,

I get the feeling Next week. I'm probably gonna be Yeah, I know

I know but I I think what you need to have that freedom and You know, it had been a while since I had done it

And so this time I'll make sure that I've got everything where it needs to be And in fact while I'm thinking about make sure to disconnect the hard drive down there

Let's put it put it back where it belongs. Anyways, thanks for watching the program today. We will see you next time.