Mark Driscoll being Mark Driscoll

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00:03

Where's the intro? Well, hello

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No, this is not Andrew Rappaport this is the other Drew and Apparently, I don't know where the background music is or the intro music.

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So we just picked this nice soothing music to open up the show

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I've got my sidekick with me here Lawson my firstborn

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And say hey Lawson No, no, so you say hey you say hey

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Lawson. Hey All right. Well, let's turn that off and let's get into today's show so first welcome to apologetics live apologetics live is a

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Podcast ministry from striving for eternity where we seek to basically deal with cultural issues.

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Hey, buddy, sit down A coat cultural issues of the day, but we want to do so from a biblical perspective and We want to do so in a firm manner

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But that is most importantly Christ honoring and my son just cannot get set

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But given the topic of today, I have to bring in my other two guests and that is

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Mr. Chris Han Holtz from voice of reason. How you doing brother? I am doing fantastic and it's good to see you and in your son.

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So I need to see him with you He is he knows we're alive. And so he knows this is his time to shine and let me bring in my other guest my co -host from Matter of theology.

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I almost forgot the podcast because we haven't done it in a lot But mr. Chris, huh real both of these guys really need no introduction here as they are regulars on apologetics live

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But first, how are you guys doing what's been going on in your life? Good, man.

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Good just as you would say live in the dream. That's right. Trying not to wake up. That's right Nothing crazy over here just Plugging along brother playing along.

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That's right. Chris Han Holtz. What's been going on in your life? Same old same old just, you know still getting used to the new security job and you know taken, you know

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Thankfully enjoying the part -time aspect of it because that won't last much longer Are you going on?

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Yeah the position there? They're finally getting me set that they've been putting me through the various classes for will be coming up and sit here shortly

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So that'll it it was kind of funny I worked 40 hours a week in law enforcement and I'll now be working

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Almost 48 Hours on the new job, so I'll have even more hours, which was not exactly how

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I expected retirement to go but But I've been taking advantage of the free time to spend a little bit more time writing and trying to work on the show

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Unfortunately, our our good friend Rich is my partner is his family just been going through a lot of trials right now

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So he hasn't been able to be on the program So if y 'all would keep him in your prayers him and his family just pray for a story.

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Yes. Yeah I know he'd greatly appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah It's been it's been quite a while since we've had a voice of reason

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I think with both of you. Yeah, it's been a bit Yeah, but it's looking at the comments.

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I see we have Melissa She says I would rather see Lawson's face than Andrews mug.

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I think everyone shares that sentiment He's he's a cutie pie, aren't you

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He's saying something I don't know what he's saying, but he knows what he's saying so but Chris had to step backstage

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But let's uh, let's kind of talk about today's Topic so I really wanted to hit this earlier before everyone else did and welcome back to the show

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Thanks, buddy. I could hear everything But I really wanted to tackle this before everyone else

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But you know We were kind of late to it and Justin Peters did a couple of episodes on this with Gabe Hughes Phil Johnson a lot of people have been hitting this from different angles and that is the issue with Mark Driscoll and what happened at the strongman conference?

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and what it Really boils down to is you see the title of the show

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Mark Driscoll being Mark Driscoll And we really can say this is nothing new it's typical

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Mark Driscoll at Some point you would think he would wise up But he hasn't you know at some point the young restless and reformed have to become the mature in biblical and apparently they're not

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What are your guys initial thoughts before we really dive into what at what happened

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I Mean brother you and I drew you and I have dealt with Driscoll a bunch on matter of theology

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Driscoll and those who Want to be like Driscoll those dollar general mark

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Driscoll's out there. So general mark Driscoll's. Yes. Yep. Yep. Yep one in particular I know you and I are thinking of but you know

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It's sad I Think I've been trying, you know, ever since I knew we were gonna talk about this and ever since I knew it happened just because of the history that you and I have with That aim almost just came out

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With with those who would be you know disciples of Driscoll as as close as we were to that and as As The details continue to unfold this time as that the

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Lord Uses time to do the heavy lifting the details that come out as far as What really happened and then now what has happened since all of the initial?

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Kerfuffle took place. Yes. I said kerfuffle It's just it's just sad and I think

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You know, I may get into this a little bit more later But I think what we're seeing and the reason that Driscoll still has a following I think the reason that now and what's funny is you'd listen to him talk now like it's not as harsh or as sharp

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In the way, he words things he kind of tries to soften it up but he still tries to say the heavier things but say it like this and so it comes across like like I'm Mature and I care

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I mean, but but but the point is with mark Driscoll. He's He's still the same the same

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Grifter and the same person who is out for mark Driscoll and For the clicks and the likes and now he has set everything up to to where no one can come after him

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You know, he has no elders in his church. No leadership. So But it's just sad and and I'll say this and turn it over to Captain over here.

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So but I Think the reason that we see guys like Driscoll continue to have a following and Chris kind of hit on this on on Twitter today

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But then Chris and I have talked about this a bunch when we talk on Marco Polo is there's such a vacuum if you will of truly

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Masculine masculine masculine not masculine masculine biblical men out there

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That so many and even in our circles not so much our circles anymore, but Just outside of our circles, but but so many so many

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Christians flock to a guy like Driscoll is because he stands up chest out chin up Sometimes says the things that need to be say said but but it doesn't take away from His the the consequences of his actions in the past so we'll get into that I'm sure as we go but Some of my initial thoughts

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Yeah, go ahead Chris Honholtz, I need to clarify Add on to that.

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Yeah, I think I would echo a lot of what Huff said With regard to mark trust me when this whole thing exploded and Some of us spoke up and said hold on a second.

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Remember who we're talking about This is not someone to be cheering on or emulate in all likelihood.

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There's There's more to this story than meets the eye and and the reaction on the part of some people

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I meant I The nice thing about the way I have my Twitter feed set up now is if you don't follow me,

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I don't see your notifications so I It's a much more enjoyable

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Use of the of the site now a lot of trolls just go completely unanswered because I don't know they're there but I Will go back because some people are legitimately giving, you know reasonable responses

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And so I'll scroll through just to see if there's anything that needs response and there were so many

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Replies to the to the effect of how dare you? He needed to say this.

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I can't believe you have a problem with I can't believe you're defending You know

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James River Church and none of that was the case. I you mentioned Justin Peters program.

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I watched both of those and they were fantastic. If you haven't watched them, you've got to take time there's you're looking about three plus hours of video content, but absolutely excellent commentary on the whole thing and One of the things that Justin said is in his second video is

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Even though they had said James River Church stronger men's conference. Nothing but a goat factory.

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This is not of God this is not what we do and Then explain the problems with Driscoll people still said it and it goes back to what

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Huff said is There is I think there's a right analysis of what's going on in culture, which is this if Feminism effeminacy that has been pushed into the society

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Saying that anything that bears any Resemblance to the stereotypical masculine role is considered toxic masculinity

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This utter attack on Men and the role that God has given them in in culture in the home in the church in the workplace there's been such an assault upon it and Sadly many institutions even including the church have been infected by it that There is a instead of going.

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Okay, let's take scripture and draw it back to where it needs to be in the center of The line. No, let's hard right this thing

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You will go as far right as we can and we go right into another ditch and What happens is you you now embrace anything that's why you have

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I sadly I've seen people who spoke I Want to say I don't want to say respectfully but spoke

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But a well or spoke fairly of people like Andrew Tate who has nothing but disdain for Christianity If he and if you mentioned that well

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But he's teaching men to be to get to get fit and it's like the man is an absolute dog.

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He can't control himself He's a dog in heat But I think it was Sam say Sam you'll say who responded to Andrew.

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Yeah. Oh, that was great. Raise your kids, aren't they? But but he it is this hard right pull and And it says okay if you think a toxic masculinity bad

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They're not we're not just gonna fight over what that means. We're going to actually just embrace all of it

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The talks the genuinely toxic parts as well. And so now that's when you get well, we need people with a spine

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We need people who have yep male genitalia to say let's say these things. I'm not gonna say the word It That's what they said and I know instead of Recognizing there's a biblical masculinity that we need to embrace and we need to be putting out there no, we're gonna hard right this as far as we can and Then that's what we're gonna grab anything that says that and anything that doesn't go that way

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We're going to slander. We're going to mock. We're gonna call it a feminine. We're gonna call it gay we're gonna call it a feminist and all these things and so There is a hunger for genuine masculinity.

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There is a hunger to refute this God forsaken ideology.

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There's a void there is a void of genuine biblical Masculinity absolutely.

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There's a massive void part of that is the attack of the Owen Strand's book the war on men. Excellent. Excellent resource

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Yeah, like like there's a there's a definitely a void a hundred and ten percent however, we need to make sure that that when we are when we as believers in the

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Lord Jesus Christ, and we are looking for those Brothers to whom we may emulate, you know

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Paul said imitate me But he didn't just say imitate me said imitate me as I imitate Christ when we when we as brothers and or sisters are looking

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For for those men in our lives to be able to look at them and say I want to emulate that because they are emulating

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Christ we need to make sure that we are looking for on the hunt for and examining according to the scriptures those men in our lives to whom we want to emulate and Imitate because they are imitating

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Christ. We want to learn from their examples, right? And and so the problem with a guy like Mark Driscoll is

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Now we're what drew were Five years No, no, no, no way more than that was at 2014 10 years away from What happened at Mars Hill Church in Seattle?

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And so there's there are a lot of people number one who weren't believers number two Maybe who

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I mean we think about that that what the world That was that was 10 years ago.

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And so Mark has done a phenomenal job at burying that in his life and so Yep, like unless, you know, or unless you know someone who was involved with that I think about our brother

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Josh loveless, right and I think about everything he went through There because of Driscoll but unless people know that they hear they see a man standing up on a platform with a with a

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Bible in hand and Saying the hard things and here's the thing about this is sometimes

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Sometimes and and I heard I saw so I won't say this a couple times He says things that are correct and that's good

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Praise the Lord for that and and I find myself I find myself to thank it like like being like Paul Philippians Right and and in those moments where the truth is proclaimed according to the scriptures

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I'm thankful that the truth is proclaimed But I'm still going to point out as Paul did That there are those who are proclaiming the gospel proclaiming the truth for means of sorted gain

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For means of personal gain versus the glory of the they are they're doing it for their own glory and not the glory of God according to the

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Word of God and So with with a guy like Mark Driscoll, I see some comments.

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They're saying what did he do again? We'll get into that. I'm sure We've got two hours. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

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Yeah, we're just we're just kind of opening thoughts here So but we just you know going back to what I said originally like we have to be careful that we are not filling that void

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With unqualified men now, that's not I'm sure we'll get into this too.

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I don't and I agree with Justin Peters here. I don't hate Mark Driscoll, right at all I don't

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I'm thankful for the interactions that I've had with him online. He hasn't blocked me yet You know, we've had some interactions around the gifts of the

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Spirit continuationism versus Cessation ism and some I'm you know, his his interactions have been immature and that of a teenager

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To be honest with you and he would never engage with the truth that was being put before him, but that's

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Driscoll So but yeah, so as men as men and women as brothers and sisters we we seek to imitate those who imitate

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Christ and we seek to imitate those who according to the scriptures are

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Desiring to live a life that is above approach desiring to live a life that is submitted to the authority

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Complete authority to the Word of God because they love God not not those who are looking to build their own platform

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Yeah So you guys were talking about and touching on biblical manhood and there's a difference between what we see

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Portrayed as manhood on the internet and on the social media today and biblical manhood and one of the things that especially

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I've been trying to promote probably the last year is a return of men to being historical gentlemen

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Right because there's there's a type of character that comes along with being a gentleman when you look at Andrew Tate You don't see a gentleman

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You see a crass vile Individual where if evolution were true then sure that would be

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Displayed as manhood, right the strongest survive take what you want treat people

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However, you want that's an evolutionary worldview, but we don't live that way because one evolution is false to we serve

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We serve a God and that God that we serve demands that we live and act a certain way as men

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Right, and so that that doesn't just so that that goes with how we treat others that goes with how we view and worship

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God that especially with how we treat women how we treat our wives how we raise our kids but also how we carry ourselves how we how we

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How we dress how we talk how we act right all of those things play a part and Chris Huff you and I have talked for years

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Years About the type of language that pastors use from the pulpit

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Right mark Driscoll's and Dollar General mark Driscoll's alike There is no room for that type of language

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Whether it be cursing or not cursing but saying just crass and vile things that have no business invoking the imagination

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To certain images that that stuff has no place, right? So so before we get into this

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I want to read I want to kind of set the stage with some scripture because we are talking about Martin Driscoll He is someone who claims to be a pastor.

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Okay, but we have to understand before we even get into this That the

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Lord has given us explicit Qualifications for the man who is to be the pastor who is to be an elder and an overseer and if you've never heard these qualifications and you'd be surprised how many people

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I have run into who never knew that these verses existed and yet they serve in a church and so So so I'm gonna read over these and we're just gonna we're just gonna look at them one by one a little bit

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But Paul says or yeah Paul says in 1st Timothy chapter 3, let's begin in verse 1

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It is a trustworthy statement if any man aspires to the office of overseer it is a fine work he desires to do an overseer then

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Must be above reproach. Chris you were mentioning that the husband of one wife

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Temperate Prudent Respectable hospitable able to teach not addicted to wine or pugnacious but gentle peaceful Free from the love of money.

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He must be one who manages his Household well keeping his children under control with all dignity

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But if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the

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Church of God? right, I mean There's a lot of character traits that are listed out in there and When we go through those character traits one by one

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We can see that Mark Driscoll Does not meet them now. He may meet the one that says able to teach

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Right, there's some things And we would challenge even that now we would say able to teach in terms of he's a good communicator.

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He's an orator Right. He has a he has an ability to deliver things.

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Well, so that it's in most cases Understandable when he's not contradicting himself

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But he does not meet these character traits that are necessary for an elder

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Yes, correct and let's let's just I mean Let's just we'll just we'll just take this just just real quick Above approach

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I want to come back to that one because that's very involved But just very very quickly

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And and the husband of one wife, okay One woman man talked about that we've talked about that a matter of theology.

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We've talked about that on apologetics live So but the first few that I just I just want to stop and look at temperate sensible respectable hospitable

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Able to teach gentle or considerate Peaceable free from the love of money. So let's start with that with that the end of verse three free from the love of money

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Mark Driscoll was caught Red -handed using church funds to purchase his own books

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So that he made the New York Times bestseller list He was caught doing that Why money power

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Control, that's that's that that's what he wanted peaceable multiple witnesses not just one and and and if you

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The rise and fall of Mars Hill the podcast was as much as I disagree With the theology and the ministry philosophy and the

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Overtly egalitarian Nature of the people who put on that podcast they did find

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And interviewed multiple people who clearly showed that Mark Driscoll is not peaceable if you if you want to see that for yourself just Go on go on Twitter and engage him on the topic of cessationism versus continuationism he compares those who are cessationist who to to unbelievers is

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Is what he said? He said some very very disparaging things, but he's not peaceable. He's not gentle.

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He's not considerate Multiple witnesses throughout the years have have confirmed that as far as the wine pugnaciousness.

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I can't I can't speak to that You know able to teach Okay, yeah, he pressed he possesses the ability to drew to your point to be an orator and to be able to Articulate the things that that whatever the topic is not just scripture.

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Whatever the topic is sure But but he constantly contradicts himself he's aligned himself with false teachers

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He's aligned himself with charlatans with wolves So I would say that's a no hospitable respect

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We could just keep going now, let me let me stop here and also say that when it comes to these qualifications that The especially for me for men this should be that These are the qualifications for an elder.

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These are the qualifications for a pastor However, these character traits is what every single man born of the

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Spirit of God Every single man that the Lord has graciously through no work of our own chosen to apply the efficacious

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Complete and ongoing work of the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins.

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This is the goal When we say be a man of God when we say possess biblical

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Masculinity, this is the goal These character traits is what you should be aiming for whether you are an elder or not

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All of us should do that now none of us None of us will fulfill all of these all of the time and that is where we are beyond Grateful or the grace upon grace and patience and long -suffering of the

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Lord Jesus Christ with each and every one of us however When it comes to the qualifications of what it takes to be

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God's man in God's house You have to meet these it's non -negotiable

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So I would say this Trinity Church, I think is the name of Mark Driscoll's Church That is no more of a church because they they don't have a pastor than somebody who has a woman pastor.

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Yeah And I guess he doesn't need those qualifications Yeah No, absolutely And I just want to throw something in here because that this discussion came up a number of times when people like myself

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Justin Peters, you know, and others were pointing out the the disqualifications of Mark Driscoll number one.

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He's disqualified himself It wasn't like somebody came along grabbed him by his ear and said you're disqualified. He disqualified himself by his actions

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Yeah and You know Justin Peters if you watch his second video has the link to the letter where some 40 elders said the man is not

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It or ministry Yeah, he's utterly disqualified himself now to that end the same the same question when it came up Well, you don't you guys believe in forgiveness?

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Don't you believe in reconciliation and I say it with that tone because that's literally how it was being conveyed and here's the thing when you get to the issue of if you have an elder who's disqualified himself because of Financial mishandling let's say in the church and The the elder board has come together

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They've looked at they pulled him out and their counseled him and they're working towards something and now they've seen the fruit of repentance

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And he can be trusted in the pulpit, but maybe we make wiser decisions on who handles the finances

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That's one thing when you have a man who has repeatedly

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Unrepentant Lee be smirched the the name of Christ by bringing a reproach upon himself upon his church and upon the name of Christ and has fled church discipline and And has never you know openly said you're right

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I did this this and this and this is where I written that has never done that and has at his new church

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Thrown his previous elders under the bus and blamed them by saying Oh, they were gonna pull this nuclear option and they accused me of sexual infidelity in the marriage.

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This is a man who is Permanently disqualified because he is not above reproach

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Anybody who still knows who he is knows these things and the record is still there.

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It's been only 10 years Since these things happened we're not talking that he was 20 years old and he made some really dumb mistakes is an

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Coming out of seminary school and now he's you know, 50 years old and he's been found, you know

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Much more mature and growing and now he's being brought on staff. This is a man who 10 years ago

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Lied about what he was putting in his books Presented as as Phil Johnson put it pornographic divinations claimed that God gave him x -rated visions of people's sins

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Who manipulated his book sales? Was abusive to staff and had no problem saying from a pulpit.

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Hey Mars Hill has a great big Exit sign to kick people out Because they're not gonna drive the bus they can get they can get on the bus

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They can ride the bus so they can get run over by the bus, but they're not gonna be in charge Chris That sounds awfully familiar, doesn't it?

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You know if you're not with us, you know Then just leave and we don't want you here and that's exactly the ministry style

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He had and yet people not just him because of that void that that Chris was talking a little while ago

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They are so willing to overlook Glaring reproach so they can get somebody who says the tough things that says things like a man should say and ignoring

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Many godly pastors who exist in the pulpit today Well known even and much and many not well known who are saying these things but saying them in a godly fashion

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But that's not enough. We've got to have a mark Driscoll No, you don't you bring up a really good point where you're talking about We got to have men who would say things

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This way right? Well, no, we don't because and this goes back so so when this incident this latest incident with Driscoll happened actually sent the video to Justin Peters and Justin and I had a little bit of back -and -forth about it

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The first one was how ironic that it is Mark Driscoll supposedly calling this thing out

31:01

But when you're talking about he didn't yeah, but when you're talking about we need men to say the hard things

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Okay, why is no one? Taking a look at men like dr.

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John MacArthur Who says the hard things? But he does it in a way that is tactful that is respectable that is temperate but yet firm

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Authoritative because he uses the scriptures to make his point Right being a man is not about saying hard things in a crass way

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We're just trying to have that gotcha moment where you make someone feel this big being a man and saying thing the heart things the hard way is is bringing the truths of God to bear upon the soul and Elevating Christ and saying you must repent of this if this is how you are living.

32:01

Yeah Going back to what you were saying is it's a when we

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When we elevate men like Driscoll like an Andrew Tate By the way,

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I see what you guys the comment you guys were laughing at I Gotta put it up Aaron Stronger says we need men to say the hard things like Worcestershire sauce.

32:33

Well, you got a man. Yeah, Melissa Owens was, you know over here singing my praises apparently

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Which is about made me fall out of my chair. So Well, and so so, you know, we don't need we don't need men like that And and what happens is when men like that are elevated when men like that are given the clicks given the likes

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Given the views which is exactly what Mark Driscoll wants. It's exactly why this publicity stunt took place in the first place

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What that does is that it that empowers those immature? unqualified

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Not seeking after holy don't give a rip about sanctification when it could especially when it comes to the way they say things in the way

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They supposedly care for those that they've been You know called to care for and shepherd it gives them license

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To fly off the handle they give them license to stand up on a stage Priestry song of Solomon talk about how they got all hot and bothered prepared for it.

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It gives them license to stand up there To not look people in the eyes when they preach but to pick up points on the walls because that's what

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Driscoll does He doesn't actually look at people. He looks at that corner and in that corner and the back of that Look at people, right?

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That it's interesting about that because when you're first learning how to public speak, that's what they tell you to do, right?

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And so by the time but when you become a pastor, you should be able to look at your congregation

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I'm able to speak to them. How can you preach as a dead man to dying men?

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How can you preach? The whole man to the whole man and not look people in the eyes.

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I Think that's cowardice and I think that speaks volumes if you don't do that If you can't then sit down Yeah, then you're not called and I think what this speaks to is is a person's reliance on themselves

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Who promote themselves as opposed to amen? Oh me OMC ministries give us men that know the truth

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Stephen Jay Lawson. Amen. Yeah Chris has a funny story about About getting

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Lawson to write this. Okay side note side note story time with uncle with uncle Chris So Drew and I 2019 were at the

34:47

Shepherds conference and I have a Bible with me that I just gotten and it was it was a nice Bible and We went to hear

34:58

Steve Lawson talk about Jonathan Edwards and the preciousness of time and it was life -changing for me

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I know for drew as well that just to hear that in person I'd heard some of that stuff previous but That's a good comment to engage with anyway, so we're talking to him and stuff and he's signing books and and he'll he'll sign the cover

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Of Bibles or something like that if you want him to and so I asked him to To if he wouldn't mind because that was gonna be the

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Bible that I was gonna use As a reminder to be a man of the truth and I said, would you mind just writing?

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You know in quotations give us some men who know the truth. He's like absolutely So he starts writing it and then somebody comes up to him and distracts him and he's like, okay

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So all he wrote was give us some men and then autographed That's it, that's all that's that's great.

35:49

I Really? Hope one day that story gets back to Lawson Like you still you have a signature to finish.

35:56

There's Yeah, no, what's funny though is last year. So we're recording this if you're listening to this later

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We're recording this in 2024, but 2023 Shepherds conference. Um After his he opened the

36:07

Shepherds conference cuz John was John was out sick and or yeah he was injured and um, and afterwards

36:13

I was talking to Steve about about the sermon and Somebody mentioned that and I said,

36:19

I got a funny story for you Steve. He's like, what's that? And I told him that he goes No, I didn't He said do you is that the

36:27

Bible you have I was like, no, I it's not as it's ESV I'm LSB now. So this is the one

36:32

I have and so he's like man He said I got to fix that for you So that was really funny great

36:39

Good at least he knows and he offered to fix it. Yeah So but um, so getting back to what we're talking about.

36:47

Um, it's this reliance upon self as opposed to Reliance upon God and his power and his word to do the work and I think what it's an admission of when we say we need someone like a

37:02

Driscoll To say these things it is a it is an admission that we don't think the preaching of the

37:09

Word of God is sufficient That we need somebody who's willing to Act and speak like the world

37:17

So that it's a punch in the gut to the people who need to see it and and I saw the one you highlighted and I you know, and I think this is gonna be a good one to interact with because and it seemed when

37:28

Chris was talking about because I think it goes back to that issue of Well, but he was right and and he needed to say it we need people to say it and yet there are people who say these

37:39

Things every single day that will never find themselves in Driscoll situation because they would never compromise

37:47

Themselves to be in that situation Driscoll was there because in 2014 he's removed from his church.

37:54

So by 2017 and by the way, really seriously watch

37:59

Justin Peters second video because it give I Really don't like saying this the man did

38:07

John Lindell who calls out? Driscoll from the pulpit for the things that happened post -conference gives a history of how they got to where they're at They helped him.

38:20

They were the ones that got him the ministry to our ministry leaders and gave him super -oversight my foot oversight and Got him set up with a church in Arizona and then he's been partnering with them since 2017 three years

38:41

After he let was removed from his church three years later. He's preaching at their stronger men's conference and for seven years

38:50

Seven years he's been speaking at this goat factory Boxing events tanks

38:56

Monster trucks every manly thing you can think of that is not of that's not of Scripture They have introduced and Mark Driscoll for seven years has said

39:07

Bob kiss Why Pause right there just just for a second and and and I as a man,

39:16

I enjoy all those things boxing Monster trucks, especially my son loves monster trucks Thanks, absolutely

39:23

Anything that goes pew pew, especially big pew pews. Okay, like I'm all about that But you see here's this goes back the the bigger conversation as far as the biblical manhood

39:34

Thing okay. So the biblical manhood thing why I love I love guys like Jocko Willink Tim Kennedy my boys over at GBR s

39:43

Love that love not so much them. They're not really talking about manhood They're just talking about being a pro period across the board anyway but the thing the thing the thing with the the messages that those guys that the

39:56

Kennedy's and the Jocko's and you know all that is it's all about to you be the best version of yourself

40:06

To truly be a man to be a disciplined man It you have to be a believer and it has to be for the glory of God It has to be for the glory of the

40:15

Lord Jesus Christ according to the Word of God So why all those things are great? They are they absolutely have diddly squat

40:22

To do with what it means to be a biblical man of God Amen Amen, and that's the thing is that this has been going on with Driscoll for seven years and one time

40:35

Where he says something that's most of us kind of go. Well, yeah, that sounds kind of right Everybody gets ecstatic about ignoring the previous six years where he did nothing he benefited from this goat farm

40:48

He benefited from this this conference. His name was promoted time and time and time again and So the idea that he was suddenly

41:00

Courageous is utterly false, right? You know and and I think Gabe Hughes on the first episode with Justin Peter does a great job outlining that that what?

41:11

happened was Mark Driscoll already and this is actually the more of the video clips you see this this is actually confirmed

41:20

They were going he was already gonna talk about Jezebel spirit and they have spirit. That was his plan

41:26

So what did he do? Did he call that out because he was so aghast? No it fit his sermon the problem was

41:34

It made John Lindell mad and he got kicked off stage and everybody thought that was fantastic Because here's a courageous man paying the price for speaking the truth when the reality is it was nothing of the sort, right?

41:46

It wasn't a striptease. It was look if you watch America's Got Talent This guy's been on there Mm -hmm

41:52

If you ever watch any show like that any kind of show where these guys are doing acrobatics nine times out of ten

41:58

They are not wearing shirts. They're climbing. They're wearing skin tight skin tight being launched through the air, whatever

42:04

That's what this guy did But because he had to he couldn't he can't wear a shirt when he does that No, not without an event the way he's grabbing on to the to the pole for that for the act

42:14

I mean for this actually is it wasn't a striptease event. It wasn't a striptease pole. It wasn't a natural pole

42:20

There was nothing of the short But he painted it that way and gets and gets kicked off a stage and everybody thinks he's courageous

42:27

But he didn't he saw an opportunity to promote what he's already been saying for a while now and had a book about That's all this was it was not a hero moment, right and so for people to get excited

42:41

I Get it most all of us at some point Felt like okay that sounded kind of good

42:49

But no when you're unwilling to look at the facts of the situation and you just want to hold on to that moment

42:58

That's when you you are elevating somebody who has no business He has so desperately tried to get back into that spotlight that he's had

43:06

When he when he was in the part of the young wrestlers and performed I mean, he literally was like the figurehead of it.

43:13

Hmm, and he is going to that time magazine. Yeah, you sure According to him and time. Yeah Well, see what

43:20

Chris you bring up you bring up a fantastic point brother like It is so so when this a couple things just real quick Going back to what

43:29

Driscoll did ten years ago right going back to that. I'm of the opinion that Had all of that stuff comes a lot.

43:38

Okay, so the misuse of funds financially to purchase your own books the plagiarism The the heavy -handed leadership.

43:46

Don't forget lying at the strange fire conference. Yeah. Yeah Oh, yeah, all that all right all that all that comes up right like I'm of the opinion

43:56

That All those things now now what that shows of course as a whole is that mark struggles at best at best

44:07

Mark struggles with the sin of deception of being deceptive The reason

44:13

I say at best is because when you when that's something you struggle with That can that fruit can show the root of who your true father is

44:25

Yeah, and it is not Christ. Amen. That's why I say at best at worst He is not

44:32

Repentant. He's not a believer. He doesn't possess faith in Christ now. I Personally, I don't believe that I Don't believe he's not a brother.

44:40

I believe at best. I believe that at best right love first Corinthians 13 love hopes and all things. I Think he wrestles with that being that that deceptiveness because he wants to be liked he wants to be affirmed

44:52

He wants to be appreciated and needed So when all that happened and all that came out and he was confronted by his elders with all of this information had he repented and Said yes,

45:07

I did this Yes, I lied. Yes, I use I Incorrectly used funds.

45:13

I was heavy -handed in my leadership. I was abusive in my leadership I hurt people and and and some of it may have been intentional some of it may not have been but the point is

45:22

I Hurt them. They were supposed to be under my charge and under my care if he had exhibited true biblical repentance sought counsel

45:33

Submitted to discipline and those elders also submitted to that plan committed to that came up underneath him like Galatians 6 says

45:40

Helped him shoulder that If if that had been the case after a proven

45:48

Long period of time. I don't know say 10 years Like if he had done that and showed that his the evidence of Truly trying to kill that in his life.

46:02

I have no problem personally based upon what I read in Scripture of him being restored to the pulpit

46:08

But that's not what he did and what makes him Chris to your point earlier Disqualified is the fact that he fled from it.

46:15

He continues to lie about it. He continues to practice deception He continues to elevate himself.

46:23

He continues to act in this immature way and Indeed just nailed it like pride ultimately.

46:30

Absolutely but it's because of the the fleeing it and then continuing in it and that there's now there's now been a a

46:37

Long period of time that is just proven that that at best that's what he wrestles with and he is not to be trusted and and and and and elevated so when that happens knowing all of that like when this when this first took place when

46:54

I first saw this and Both you guys know this I've been trying to Take a step away from social media outside of just a few few things on Instagram every now and then

47:03

Every day and then that's it. I'd walk off. I'm done When this first happened like I didn't look at it and go man good for Driscoll man, somebody needed to say it

47:14

I Looked at it. I did this. I this is literally I'm on computer. I was looking at it

47:19

I was reading it just right here in this seat and I went Something's off.

47:26

Mm -hmm something's off and I'll pause here after I say this and Say that for those defending

47:37

Driscoll and those saying he needed to say something and those saying it had to be this and it had to be that Like I truly believe what dr.

47:45

John MacArthur's words in an interview he did with Justin Peters When Justin said what's the greatest threat to the

47:51

Christian Church today an abysmal lack of biblical discernment? Yeah, man, yeah, you know and because I know this question came up earlier

48:00

But it was the question was what did Mark Driscoll do again do or do this time? So just to backtrack to fill in the gaps of what we're talking about There was a men's conference called the stronger man's conference and it's been going on for quite a while in Mississippi at what's it called?

48:17

John's River Church James River James River James River Church that is Pastored I use that term loosely by John Lindell and what happened was they brought on as they have done years prior a

48:32

Performer of some type so they've had boxing. They've had weightlifters they've had some kind of death -defying acts type stuff and this year it was a man who

48:44

Yes was a former stripper Gabe Hughes mentioned it.

48:50

He said he can't tell if he still does it or anything like that but either way, this is a man who is a former stripper who now is a does these acts and He is a sword swallower

49:03

And so he's did his act where he came out and he swallowed the sword and he did his whole thing that he's done on the talent shows

49:09

America's Got Talent Britain's Got Talent China's Got Talent. That's what he does and When he got off the stage and Mark Driscoll came up Mark Driscoll Knowing all the antics that have taken place in prior years, right?

49:26

Decides he's going to relate this act the show to a stripper taking off their clothes and that whole scene and then relating it to the spirit of Jezebel which

49:43

No one really knows what that actually is because it's not a biblical concept and then

49:51

No such thing, right and then you're welcome. You don't have to read the book now and then

49:57

Mark John Lindell called out from the stage and said Mark you're done and then Mark Got up and he left the stage, but that wasn't it

50:07

Now Chris Hough sent me the video of where he came back afterwards and it was a conversation between John Lindell and Mark Driscoll and where he's talking about how much

50:19

John Rivers and and John Lynn James River and John Lindell helped get

50:25

Mark Driscoll back into the pulpit Right when everyone else had abandoned him and all this stuff

50:33

No, we were just calling everyone was just calling you to biblical accountability your elders from your church

50:39

Who they weren't setting a plot for you, right? They were they were holding you to biblical accountability and John Lindell was one of the ones that helped get him back in the pulpit and then another turn of events

50:54

We the very next day what comes out on Twitter is Mark Driscoll's promotion of his latest book on the

51:03

Jezebel spirit and just yeah, and just it just for a few clarifications on that the

51:10

The sword swallowing act was the day before Mark spoke so he had a full day

51:16

Knowing about this supposedly had been up since one o 'clock in the morning praying which is why he says he was hoarse

51:23

Wow, I really want to know how loud you were praying to be hoarse and then and why your hotel neighbors were not mad with you and then

51:34

The the once that was all so when all of this was done and he gets kicked off a stage

51:39

John Lindell gets up and said I had spoken to him for a half an hour and he never brought this up now.

51:46

I absolutely Just absolutely despise John Lindell's mishandling in the

51:52

Matthew 18 as is used by so many people than they don't want to be held accountable Yeah, but I will say this if you really it wasn't a it wasn't a

52:04

Private sin situation where you have to go talk to somebody. So if you want to speak about it, that's fine But you have a half an hour to talk to the man why didn't you oh

52:14

That's right, because you wanted to pull a stunt on stage That speaks to them. I think the the the layout of how it occurred speaks to Driscoll's motivation he didn't want

52:26

Lindell to say, you know No, because you know in that in that little conversation they have and this is where I I I laugh when everybody tries to say

52:34

He was heroic He says in that half -hour video clip I Shouldn't have said it.

52:41

I should have talked to you first You could have approved it or and I would have I would have not done it if he said no and later

52:47

He says it was it was the most awkward moment. And yeah, I know I shouldn't have said that Completely 100 % this was not a sort of kind of two -step.

52:55

No, he completely walked it back So it wasn't a rebuke. It wasn't a correction.

53:01

It was an attempt to Promote his his His book and his ideology his book apparently has been out for a year and he was giving away the

53:10

PDF version of it Which everybody's all ha ha. Yeah, he he was just it's he's giving it away for free

53:16

So what you don't buy books that you've read on a PDF so you can have the book. I Mean, that's that that's that's routine.

53:24

I have several PDF books I've gotten as part of pre -launches to in I now own the physical copies of the book

53:30

It's how that that's a promotion a way of getting a book out so that was all part of it and Then the thing that gets even weirder is that after all of this after all of this happened and Everybody's made nice and they post a picture together how everybody's great and happy now within a day

53:54

Mark Driscoll is texting John Lindell son basically telling him. Nope. I was right. It's demonic.

54:00

He's there's something We're going over there. You need to take the rings and kick your dad out and your brother Yeah, and and which resulted in the new

54:10

Matthew 18 By the way, yes Matthew 18 does not apply here

54:19

Never did in context. Is it a good roadmap sure to use?

54:25

Like let's say that you know on holds which is not gonna happen because I know on holds

54:32

Because he loves the Lord and listens to what the word says. Let's say Honnold said or did something publicly that That is it is just overtly simple.

54:41

It's a good roadmap. We're not a part of the same church Okay, I don't have to follow Matthew 18.

54:47

I can come out if Chris releases something publicly that is heresy Heterodoxy I can come out and refute that publicly because he released that publicly

54:57

I'm not required by scripture to do that. We are not part of the same church locally if we were

55:04

Yes, I would be required to follow Matthew 18 But it's a good roadmap to follow.

55:11

I'm still gonna follow it I'm gonna go to my brother privately because I love my brother and I'm gonna say hey, man, not cool.

55:18

Here's what you did Here's what that contradicts. We need to fix this. Okay, if he doesn't do it

55:25

You know, I I don't need to go get drew or Justin or Alex or anybody else to come to Chris and be like, okay, man now

55:34

Mo all of multiple people were coming to you together and wanting you to repent Yes, again, great.

55:40

We're about to follow but I'm not required to do that. This is one of those examples Yeah, you know again biblical discernment it matters context matters

55:52

Let's say for example that everything Driscoll said is a hundred percent true.

55:58

It was a striptease it was It was it was vulgar it was

56:04

It was pornographic in its in its portrayal Then yes

56:10

Yes hundred percent Then it should have been called out publicly A 100 % but it wasn't it wasn't at all

56:20

So I just I just want to stop for that about Matt 18 So and it was and that's the thing. It's like it's completely inappropriate because it's on its its window dressing to sell

56:30

Christianity But it's not what he tried to portray it as and that's the problem and that's where it goes back to well

56:37

We need men who we need men to say these things Well, where was he for the prior six years?

56:44

Where was he as we as since come out the the the the Anthony mug mug got my gala.

56:50

I think his name is Pointed out there were two other men who were performing shirtless

56:56

Who are by the way, not Christians. It seems they are They're professing

57:04

Muslims and they were doing some sort of Athletic or acrobatic act there's actually a picture of them with Magala at the event all of this that's not brought up so again when when the reality is set in and People still want to prop up Driscoll's.

57:23

Well, he did something, right? The reality is he never did he never did something right?

57:28

He actually just did what Driscoll always does he promoted himself and He is now

57:35

Again again, and what is he doing behind the scenes? And again, I hate to give

57:41

John Lindell any Kind of props because he is just as Vaughn. I said this on the on Twitter yesterday

57:50

Watching this whole fiasco of two utter wolves Trying to call each other out is like watching the two nastiest trailer park trailer park meth heads

58:00

Fighting it out on the street to say who's the worst influence on the in on the block. It's that bad

58:06

Okay, I but the interesting thing is where? where Driscoll is trying to promote this

58:14

Athletic, you know prowess event to promote his ideology on the Jezebel spirit

58:21

John Lindell brought receipts. I was just about to say that and he showed every single text of What Driscoll is doing and Driscoll is doing what

58:32

Driscoll does spin control. Mm -hmm. He got Hammered, you know, I I don't think at any time that I am aware of and let you know somebody be

58:41

I'd be happy to Be corrected. I don't think there's ever been a time where Driscoll got thrown off a stage and That was done publicly and it went everywhere and now he's trying to spin control the very man who?

58:56

Knowing that that Driscoll is unqualified put him in a pulpit. Mm -hmm

59:02

What does that say about the character? Of this man, this is not heroic.

59:08

It still shows his lack of qualifications and it he is not above reproach So I know people want to say but that good thing it wasn't what you think it was, right?

59:20

And that's what we've got to stop doing this. We've got to quit grabbing on that shiny little object

59:25

It says look pretty and go it's fool's gold Yeah, yep, you know when

59:32

I sent this to Justin and Justin watched it and we had a little conversation about it It's nice that you guys can just drop that, you know in there you and You have that direct link to just love that You know huff and Justin get you know front row seat with MacArthur in an interview

59:50

I'm trying to go get a microphone for him and I've got left out You guys have direct line to Justin and you know, of course just keeps getting to be a forget it

59:59

I've forgotten as the best -kept secret in podcasting. Thank you. I got I got the Osman I got Jim Osman's number two.

01:00:05

Oh you guys but hey, you you probably got James White, right? So, yes,

01:00:10

I do have that but that's only because the bit and see you notice I can't point straight right there

01:00:16

He said hiding over my shoulder The only reason I have that is because that number is because of that that nightmare but So was it a nightmare though?

01:00:26

Was it? Yes Do you really want to have the six -foot standies showing up at your mate on your mailbox every single day?

01:00:35

I'm down. I like that movie but When Justin and I were talking he made a comment and he said

01:00:43

He said what does it say about the type of man that Driscoll is that gets invited to such an event

01:00:50

And you know and I had to stop because because he brought a perspective. I had never thought I didn't even think about Yeah Compliment to Justin.

01:00:59

I'm not just yeah Yeah, like I wouldn't have thought about that either just Justin brings things from a completely different angle and you go hmm,

01:01:08

I didn't think about that. That's a good point and You know and I thought about it and I said, you know, you know,

01:01:14

I'm like you're right, you know if if I'm as A preacher if I'm being invited to events like that.

01:01:22

I'm doing something wrong Yeah, and I need to re -evaluate my ministry and what it is that I'm preaching

01:01:29

Which which you know goes back to the question everybody kept liking you ask Well, well, what would you have said if you were there?

01:01:36

I wouldn't have been wouldn't have been there Me yeah. Yeah, and and that's the thing, right?

01:01:41

They don't want someone like a MacArthur They don't want someone like a Jim Osmond or Justin Peters because he doesn't fit their bill

01:01:49

Because they preach the Bible they preach the gospel the

01:01:56

They're never ever ever going to invite someone like that, but someone like Driscoll the shock and awe

01:02:03

They're going they're gonna they're gonna eat that up and it looks like we just have we had someone pop in in the back

01:02:11

I think I need to bring him on because I know he's gonna bring some some brilliant insights into this

01:02:17

Mr. A .M. Brewster What are you eating chips

01:02:24

Some sort of potato waffle. That's a really important question for you guys. Is this a

01:02:33

Alphabetically, is this a corn chip or is this a tortilla chip? Well, I can't really

01:02:42

I can't really tell the lighting is not helping Assuming that it's one of those.

01:02:48

It's that what do you call these things? You call them corn chips. You come to her I just call it a chip. Yeah tortilla regular chip for potatoes

01:02:55

See down here in the south. We shorten everything so that simple and we call everything by one name, right?

01:03:01

If it's a tortilla chip, or if it's a potato chip, it's a chip if it's if it's right

01:03:06

It's not a slipper. If it's if it's coke if it's Pepsi, it's all coke And I said to somebody yeah,

01:03:18

I at the people out whose house I was staying at I said, yeah I ate all your your corn chips. He's like my what?

01:03:25

Like your corn chips. He goes. I don't even know we had those and I was like, yeah And then he's like well you talking about tortilla chips,

01:03:32

I'm like sure We went to this shopping like grocery store or market what everyone call it and I scoured the aisles and I could not find a bag that said corn chip on it.

01:03:47

I was like you're kidding me So I got back home I made certain to find a bag take a picture and send it to him just to prove that wasn't crazy

01:03:56

Don't free those don't free to say corn chips on the bag I don't know. I think those might be the only ones that actually say that I think those like natural those natural chips to it, too

01:04:08

Did you do that or he do that? I did not he did that. I would know I would I would never eating

01:04:13

He wasn't ready to be on and off. I Would never just just boot

01:04:19

Aaron Especially in something like this because I know he's probably gonna have some sort of biblical counseling wisdom

01:04:28

To give us and so here he is. He's back Everything is falling apart here.

01:04:39

Hey Aaron more years pause But now that uh that mr.

01:04:52

Aaron Brewster has has joined us in this discussion of Mark Driscoll being

01:04:58

Mark Driscoll. What are some of your thoughts? What are some of the initial thoughts you've had and then given the how everything's kind of unfolded

01:05:06

You know, what is your take? So I'll tell you my biggest

01:05:12

My biggest issue in all of this really is the age -old question

01:05:21

What Do you do when a person

01:05:28

Genuinely says things that are accurate and valuable and true one moment

01:05:34

And the next moments or even most moments are then Saying the opposite, right?

01:05:43

Is it worth it to quote that person when they're speaking truth Because I so Driscoll and I we got kind of connected early on when he was doing some stuff that was valuable and Then he started doing some stuff that was not valuable

01:05:58

So I stopped quoting him. I stopped, you know doing things and then there was the big debacle, right?

01:06:03

And then he's coming back It's like no, he's not supposed to be coming back. We're past this Why is he back and of course the places

01:06:10

I would not go where he's at where he goes I would not you know, so I mean is all of that but then he says something

01:06:17

That I actually respect it. I'm like, okay. Yeah, I had I been there and that was the first First of all,

01:06:24

I wouldn't been there but had I been there and that was one of the first events activities performances things that happen

01:06:30

I'm going why am I here? I think a Virgil Walker said it well when he's like, you know, he basic something to the effect of like Yeah, you you should have been in your car drive halfway home before mark just long before just to say anything

01:06:43

Yeah, and that's where I would have been so when he said some of the things that he said I was like well

01:06:49

Yeah good and to be honest to be honest. I don't know about you guys, but I struggle in the face of In the face of disagreement

01:07:01

So to sometimes boldly be able to say guys, what are we doing here? Like seriously, especially I've always been said, you know

01:07:08

You don't go to someone's house and put your feet up on their coffee table the very first time I know there's relationship and whatever else but to go someplace where I've been invited to be a speaker

01:07:15

I mean Andrew tells a story of Where he was invited to speak at a pastor's conference where there's a group of a table full of women pastors, right?

01:07:22

you know sitting there and And he just unabashedly spoke the truth, right?

01:07:28

That's not easy to do So for him to get up there as a speaker and to criticize them again

01:07:35

There's a certain level to which I respect that But how much can I actually say that considering that I don't

01:07:40

Respect so much of what he does and who he is and why he's doing it and where he's doing it and so on and So forth. So for me, that's the big struggle.

01:07:46

I have the same struggle right now. Honestly with Alistair Begg I have followed Alistair Begg for a very long time.

01:07:52

There was a time in my life I was working at 3 o 'clock in the morning every day and it just so happened as I was driving into work his messages were

01:07:58

Playing and on the radio and I would listen as I went into work and I really appreciated Everything he had to say with the exception of every time he tried to talk about infant baptism it was like he stopped preaching out of the

01:08:09

Bible, but But then he goes and I follow him and whatever else and I've shared quotes from him on my on my socials

01:08:18

But then he goes and he does what he did with the same the transgenderism thing and I'm going

01:08:24

Do I even want to quote him anymore? Like like obvious what he what he said was right He's been right for a very long time

01:08:31

But what do we do so that has been for me the biggest part of this and I have done a lot of introspection

01:08:37

I'm like, first of all, I don't want to be that guy. Yeah, right. I don't want to be that guy who people God forbid that people be afraid to quote me anymore

01:08:48

Because I went off the rails, you know And now nothing that I've said all the good things that I've said and done are now brought brought into question, right?

01:08:56

But to the point about Mark Driscoll, I don't want to be him either Yeah, I don't know what you guys have talked about and I hate to I think that I'm just repeating a bunch of things that you

01:09:07

Guys already talked This has been like the the biggest thing for me that has been a

01:09:14

Struggle in all of this is working through that I mean like he shouldn't have been there and I think he's wrong about the whole

01:09:21

Jezebel spirit thing. I think that's just a lot of Christian mysticism that is not helpful

01:09:27

You know the issue The issue is something else and if you got to come up with some fun little, you know

01:09:34

Slogan to tack on to it to make it palatable No, the issue is the people and their sin and their sin natures and that we're all wicked outside of the you know

01:09:41

God's grace. That's the issue. So he wasn't right about that. But he was very right to go guys. What are we doing here?

01:09:48

Seriously, what is it? What is the what was that good for you mark? I'm glad you did that now Get right on with yourself.

01:09:55

Well, well just a real quick story because you mentioned Alistair Begg So we right now we have two kids we have a third on the way, okay

01:10:06

And so name Yes so far yes But when our second child before he was before he was born we were trying to decide the name

01:10:18

And so I had said a while ago This was when American Gospel 2 came out and Alistair Begg, you know started talking and narrow And I just I was watching it with my wife and I kind of looked and I said

01:10:29

I said why don't we name our next? Our next kid Alistair if it's a boy and it and it just so happened

01:10:36

We were having a boy and I said, that's it Alistair. Well That never happened.

01:10:42

And so we we landed on Rhett right? So so we have Rhett and Fast forward to when this

01:10:49

Alistair Begg stuff happened. My mom texts me and she said I'm so thankful you didn't name my grandson

01:10:58

Well, okay, so so to Aaron's point here like this makes makes me think about 1st Corinthians chapter 9 and we we see here the

01:11:07

Apostle Paul the section is the subtitle of the section and the LSB is it's

01:11:12

Paul's right to give up his rights and you know what one of the things he says here that that always catches me is

01:11:20

Starting verse 23 says so so I do all things for the sake of the gospel so that I may become a fellow partaker in Do you not know that those who?

01:11:28

Those who run in a race all run but only one receives the prize run in such a way that you may win

01:11:35

Now everyone who competes in the games exercises self -control in all things then they do it to receive a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible therefore

01:11:45

I Run in such a way is not without aim I box in such a way as not beating the air listen to verse 27 here

01:11:52

But I discipline my body and make it a slave so that and here it is After I have preached to others.

01:12:00

I myself will not be disqualified That's heavy

01:12:06

That is heavy stuff. It's like, you know, I don't Aaron to your point I don't want it

01:12:12

I would never want to get to a point number one where I brought reproach upon the name of Christ But the number two, you know after I preached after I've proclaimed and prophesied as in for you know the the foretelling of Scripture That that I would live in a way that I would be disqualified to where people go.

01:12:31

I can't listen to that I can't you know, I not I can't but Wrestling with do

01:12:36

I listen to a quote? What do I support what if he releases a book that I really want to read and and it's really good

01:12:42

But but this happened and you know, it's like that's a that's a big thing. That's a big thing

01:12:48

So we we're very very careful that we may not disqualify ourselves and remain faithful After we've preached.

01:12:55

Yeah, and and I would add on that too I mean, you know, there there is a very good question in terms of where where's that line?

01:13:04

you know, okay, we've got someone like a Mark Driscoll who for years has been disqualifying himself left and right and We you know, we we recognize the problem of giving me any kind of attention

01:13:16

But then you've got that, you know the Alistair Begg issue where a man of faithful ministry for many years then makes a very strange and Recommendation and then when kind of called on it doubles down What do you do?

01:13:33

And I think there's I think there's wisdom in saying let's be hesitant His ministry up to this point has been solid even if there are areas of disagreement but This this is odd.

01:13:46

This doesn't seem to fit. Why is this happening and just being willing to see where where he goes next and what he's what he does and If if asked saying exactly that I'm being just a little bit hesitant

01:14:00

I don't want to full -on promote the guy because this is this isn't the disagreement over infant baptism

01:14:06

This is an issue of indoor, you know giving public endorsement of a sinful

01:14:11

Union by being present And so I'm being a little just a bit arm's reach where if someone says well, why can't you do that for Driscoll?

01:14:20

Well, okay Driscoll for his entire ministry Demonstrated himself to be unfit.

01:14:26

He was People came to him time and again people like John MacArthur or well, maybe not to him but spoke

01:14:32

Publicly with regard to him and others time John went to him publicly or probably okay

01:14:38

I wasn't sure on that one But I but I also know that there were others who spoke publicly and I remember when

01:14:43

MacArthur's pub issued a letter To the whole young wrestlers for reform crowd, which interestingly when he said

01:14:51

Keep growing keep maturing keep reforming the very

01:14:57

Reaction of the people who were his acolytes then is the reaction we're watching now.

01:15:03

They lost their ever -loving minds How dare you they you know the the Greta Thunberg?

01:15:08

How dare you? reaction and it's it's tragic because He's going to hit on thing a blind mice blind mouse finds cheese or broken clocks right twice a day

01:15:22

Right, it's gonna happen Just by sheer Happenstance, if you even look at the

01:15:29

Bible and say something from it, you're probably going to find something right once in a while So when he says something, right do we go good on you or do we go?

01:15:40

Broken clock and that's my reaction is to say he's a broken clock He he said something about this, you know, what happened here was bad and in a very messed up in incorrect fashion

01:15:54

But it's a broken clock he did he didn't he didn't even address it

01:15:59

Biblically because he called it something that it wasn't. Yeah, you know and so to stumble

01:16:07

Across something that's true and then just trainwreck it The way he has I think that's the issue and I think that's where it goes back to what are we?

01:16:16

Trusting in if we are trusting in men to make us feel

01:16:22

Manly because they speak hard and soft or not anyone hard not soft they they they say things that others are too scared to say which is

01:16:32

Hogwash because there are many Godly ministers saying it you just don't want to listen to them, right?

01:16:39

Then What are you trusting in and I think that's I mean, I I'm not trying to toot my own horn here

01:16:45

I just put out an article this afternoon talking Put out an article this afternoon about I'll toot your horn buddy that didn't that way that it's

01:16:54

That there you go that that's gonna be that's gonna be what everybody says now it's a lot this is the new elf moment

01:17:02

It's trending You and I are gonna talk later I'm telling you But I put out an article this afternoon about you know, does our speech matter and it matters because When you look at passages like James chapter 3 you look at first Peter chapter 3 there's very specific commandments about watching your tongue

01:17:27

Watching how you speak not setting a forest fire blaze and even guess what y 'all are gonna like this when you face persecution

01:17:36

You still have to have your tongue controlled first Peter makes that clear Yeah, and don't use the

01:17:42

Old Testament to justify your sin and Reject the explicit command of the

01:17:47

New Testament exactly. Yes. We have examples of hard speech Examples not commandments right example don't in specific search away situations.

01:17:59

Sorry. Go ahead right now. Yeah, and don't Melissa don't don't don't don't

01:18:07

Twist Greek words to justify using coarse language. Yes. Yes. I don't care how solid your ministry is

01:18:15

Don't do that. I do want to make one interesting observation though, because this this whole conversation

01:18:21

There's a it breaks into a number of different categories, right? There's volume There's tone.

01:18:27

There's content there. I mean, there's there's all this stuff and we like to pick these things apart

01:18:33

You're right biblically speaking there are examples of sharp harsh And generally it really dealt with primarily the word spoken, but the word spoken have to be biblical, right?

01:18:47

Yes Tone is nowhere in Scripture all you tone police do yourself and everyone else a favor and shut up Because tone is not the issue

01:18:56

You can love somebody and speak truth with a tone. They don't like Yep, and you can lie to someone with the tone they do that's not the issue and what's really interesting and this is this this is the point that I want to I really want to focus on here as A as a someone who has filled the pulpit and as someone who's a biblical counselor right as a disciple or as a parent

01:19:21

What I found is that if they agree with you They like your tone and if you use the exact same tone and they disagree with you

01:19:28

They hate your tone because it has nothing to do with the tone. It has to do with the truth being spoken Now, here's what

01:19:33

I found in the pulpit. I tend to get a little rowdy. Sometimes I definitely was more so in the past But you know, it's some things that you're passionate about and you're preaching and there's amens of people like yeah

01:19:47

You say the exact same thing to an individual face to face and now they hate you for it, which is you know, biblical counseling so there is a reality where We need to be okay with hearing

01:20:02

Truth in love that hurts. All right. Yes, that's that's a reality But it always it really goes back to the truth and the problem is with you guys

01:20:11

Is that what they're screaming its problem is not that they're screaming the problem is that they're not screaming truth

01:20:17

That's the issue or they're not screaming it in a genuinely loving way and loving is really wanting and working toward God's best interest for this

01:20:25

Whether they desire it or deserve it versus I'm just doing this to get a following I'm just doing this to make money

01:20:30

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Bingo. Yeah. Now, let me bring up this comment real quick Andrew stong

01:20:36

Aaron Aaron stonger Aaron stonger What's your take on Elijah's use of crass imagery and calling out sin and false teachers?

01:20:44

Well, that's exact That's actually what we're talking about is that we don't use the Old Testament where it shows what someone did

01:20:52

Just because they did it that's not the prescription to follow when we actually have explicit

01:20:58

Imperatives in the New Testament that say how we are to then speak

01:21:03

So right, so that would be our take that and that's that's actually what we're getting at. Yeah, it's a good brother

01:21:10

Now there's a because you guys were talking, you know, we've been well this whole show We've been talking about character and Chris you went into Paul And it drew me here to to Peter in his second letter in chapter 1

01:21:24

He's talking about the promises of God, right? have it we we've now escaped the condemnation or we've escaped the corruption from the lust that's within the world and And let me just begin in verse 4 for by these he has granted to us his precious and magnificent promises

01:21:42

So that by them we may become partakers of the divine nature having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust verse 5 now for this reason

01:21:53

Also applying all diligence in your faith supply moral

01:21:59

Excellence and in your moral excellence knowledge and in your knowledge self -control

01:22:06

We don't see enough of that today Perseverance and in your perseverance

01:22:12

Godliness and in your godliness brotherly kindness and in your brotherly kindness love if These qualities are yours and are increasing

01:22:23

They render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our

01:22:28

Lord Jesus Christ and and hon holds you kept mentioning the broken clock, right and and I Was saying about all right.

01:22:35

I'm the watch I'm wearing. I haven't worn it for years It's a really nice watch. I love it.

01:22:41

I haven't worn it for years because the battery has been dead Now it was fixed on a time or I could set it to whatever one time

01:22:50

I wanted and it would be right twice a day But would it be useful and fruitful to me to me to wear?

01:22:56

No, it would what would it be? It would just be a fashion accessory to tell people.

01:23:01

Hey, look, right it is Unuseful and it is unfruitful unless I get it fixed then it's actually serves a purpose

01:23:10

It's actually beneficial for me to use And that's exactly it. That's the thing.

01:23:15

I don't I think a lot of people are either afraid to admit or unwilling to admit is that When a purse just because a heretic look

01:23:24

Benny Hinn can preach a gospel message. He's done it That doesn't make

01:23:29

Listening to anything he says or sharing his content Fruitful for anyone it is a promotion of someone who is detrimental and destructive to the body of Christ So, okay

01:23:45

Let's take this particular scenario Mark Driscoll gets up says something that's somewhat true gets kicked off stage.

01:23:53

I think The takeaway from that as you look at it and go wow a wolf got kicked off by another wolf

01:24:00

Because he didn't like what the first first wolf or it was doing That's the takeaway and then we say

01:24:08

Now, what do we do with that? Well, this is what? false teaching does

01:24:14

Put them both at a boxing ring You got you got next year's event

01:24:25

Wolves coming in and though out the wolf from the outside is coming into the pack and the wolf leader of the one pack is

01:24:32

Saying no get out. This is my yeah, and so that oh good. I was gonna I want stir the pot.

01:24:38

Oh So I grew up and I still consider myself independent fundamental

01:24:45

Baptist, right and Separatists are fantastic in No Get to a point where the only people left to separate from are themselves, right?

01:25:00

Now we know that separation is biblical Right, the the basic concept of that separation is a biblical doctrine, but how humanity treats us

01:25:07

So what we're talking about is really super comfy It's easy when we're talking about these guys when we're talking about Benny Hinn, right?

01:25:15

but the real The real struggle that we have the real struggle that that only separatists, you know

01:25:23

Are really comfortable talking about is where does that line? become more difficult

01:25:30

So as a fundamentalist, I believe that any true born -again believer who understands the scriptures is by definition a fundamentalist

01:25:37

They recognize those doctrinal truths that even though it's not cool to use the word anymore those doctrinal truths that you have to believe this

01:25:44

Otherwise, you're not born again. You can't be born again If you don't believe these truths and to the fundamentals have stood the test of time whether we like the term or not

01:25:53

But from there a lot of the a lot of the things that we

01:25:58

We tend to not want to platform a person for or not quote a person on social media or not

01:26:04

Associate ourselves with that person start to be secondary and tertiary and I don't know the area for the quads but they start to be those things further down and That's where what

01:26:15

I think is interesting again I just started the pile a little bit because it's so easy for us to come together and point at the wolves who who clearly are wolves, but it's the wolves and sheep's clothing that the

01:26:26

Scriptures command us to watch out for and how do you identify them?

01:26:33

And this is really important This is this is the fundamental reason we have Denominations. This is the reason you can have two

01:26:39

Baptist churches on the same street, right? It comes down to us saying this is what I believe the

01:26:44

Bible is saying and you're not saying the same thing So I want to get together with people who are saying who

01:26:50

I believe are saying what the Bible is really saying and that's why We how we create these things and there is that natural whether it's a whether it's an ecumenical type of a separation where we refuse to do anything with them or it's no we get together and we play softball together and we'd have a whatever together, but we still go to different churches because You guys are doing it differently than we are.

01:27:12

These are really important questions. What is the foundation for? Calling someone a wolf on one extreme.

01:27:18

What's this foundation for separating from somebody on the other extreme? So I would say that to address your first question

01:27:25

I think I think we see an example of what to look out for in Acts chapter 20 starting in verse 28

01:27:30

Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers to shepherd the church of God Which he purchased with his own blood.

01:27:39

I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among among you There's number one not sparing the flock and from among your own selves there it is again

01:27:50

Men will arise that here come here come those things to look out for speaking perverse things to draw away the disciples after them therefore be watchful so There's two right there, you know that they will come in they will come out from among you

01:28:07

So they will be professing believers in the Lord Jesus Christ professing to be called by God to to serve to lead

01:28:13

Etc. And and they will speak perverse things and seek to draw men and women to themselves

01:28:21

Away from away from the scriptures away from the Lord and they will want follow me follow me period

01:28:28

The scriptures is always a claim that they're drawing them to the scriptures, right? Yeah, and Melissa I think it's a date on the head

01:28:35

She said discernment is knowing the scriptures And that's well because you got to watch out because very few people are saying come over here

01:28:42

No, you don't need the scriptures come over here. They're saying no. No, no, come follow me I understand that the Jezebel spirit is something you need to watch right or not.

01:28:48

Well, look at look at my Todd, right? Yeah, Mike Todd just just preached a sermon not too long ago about overcome

01:28:55

Or living in the overflow. That's what it is living in the overflow and and he's he's preaching from Romans 15 and He's I mean obviously to us that that's very very obvious But you know, it's like people who study people people who study

01:29:12

Counterfeit right right there. They're involved in law enforcement involved in in counterfeiting. They don't I've heard this said for years

01:29:18

They don't study the counterfeit. They study the real thing so that they can recognize the counterfeit bill and I think back to Spurgeon's famous quote, right that the

01:29:28

Discernment is not knowing the difference between right and wrong but right and almost right. Mm -hmm Yeah, and I think

01:29:34

I think to your point Aaron. I mean that that need to just to study and understand the scriptures to the point that you can discern what is

01:29:47

Right and almost right or what is doctrinal distinctives? because You know as someone who and this gets gonna get some people who are you know?

01:29:58

Truly for reformed hate this phrase someone who's leans probably more reformed Baptist because there's no such thing according to some people that I'm going to differ with Presbyterian or Dutch Reformed on things like infant baptism and other areas

01:30:15

You know the organization of the church structure and stuff like that But where we're going to find a lot of agreement on the are those core a doctrinal

01:30:26

Beliefs and we're gonna find a you know, very many things in common But when we get to these others areas, these are doctrinal distinctives where?

01:30:35

Look I could have probably attend a Presbyterian Church if I was out of town and and be taught well

01:30:41

And I you know, even if they've taught we're talking about an infant baptism. I would probably be able to go

01:30:46

Okay, I disagree with that one. No big deal and it's still benefit versus someone as you say well come over here because you need to learn about the

01:30:54

Jezebel spirit as we as Christians have that Responsibility to be students of the word we don't get to punt on that and that unfortunately so much of evangelicalism

01:31:05

Is that it's well, I just trust what the pastor says. You know, I don't I don't need to study it myself

01:31:10

That's why I have a pastor. I don't need to learn it myself That's what he's there for and they they kind of punt on that issue.

01:31:16

And that's why we have people who can't Figure out when you point out wolf wolf beware and go.

01:31:23

Well, why do you speak that here? But not about well these guys disagree. That's good And it's it's that issue of not being discerning because you're at going back to what

01:31:33

MacArthur told told Justin that you know, just that horrible lack of biblical discernment and just a dearth of biblical knowledge because so many

01:31:45

Christians don't take the time and and yet we can you know, I Would have this discussion with my boys and we were homeschooling family and Give them an assignment.

01:31:59

They don't want to do anything Give them access to a computer and Minecraft and they can tell you the history of it tomorrow

01:32:08

Right, we will make the time for the things that are important for us But we don't want you

01:32:14

How many how many manly men at the stronger men's conference could tell you the stats of their favorite sports teams

01:32:21

Oh, but couldn't couldn't tell you What Psalm 2 says or Psalm 119 says or what we just talked about with Out of Acts, they couldn't tell you because they haven't studied it, but they'll trust

01:32:38

Someone like John Lindell to tell them Oh Mark Mark Driscoll is great to have him speak here.

01:32:44

You know, what's funny? John Lindell said that when he invited, you know,

01:32:50

Driscoll Driscoll asked what do you want to us to what do you want me to teach?

01:32:55

He says I want I want classic Mark Driscoll. Guess what you got sir classic Mark Driscoll You just you just you just nailed it brother you just nailed it right

01:33:07

How many how many people out there right now and this this bro? Okay, so last year for work,

01:33:14

I went to Chicago and A lot of people know my brother Alex Rodriguez. He's a pastor of Outpost Bible Church in McHenry, Illinois, which is a suburb of Chicago and while I was there he was like Hey, we're having a men's bonfire and we're gonna talk about what it means

01:33:29

To be a man of God. We're gonna talk about the that concept that believers in the

01:33:34

Lord Jesus Christ Is like we're called to be that man of God, what does that mean?

01:33:41

And we were we were kind of Piggy bar jumping off of leaping off of Colossians 317 and whatever you do

01:33:47

Whatever you do in word and indeed you do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus giving thanks to God the Father And so there's there's 10 -15 men there we're all sitting around a bonfire and they're all men from his church and So we're trying to get this conversation going because these are conversations that he and I have a lot as far as accountability as far as What we're reading what we're what our diet not what we're eating

01:34:06

But what we're consuming with our eyes with our ears with our time with our talent with our treasure What is your diet like overall?

01:34:13

And so we're trying to talk about that. What does it mean to be a biblical man and Brother, it was crickets.

01:34:19

But if you say Joe Biden Donald Trump if you start talking about anything political if you say

01:34:31

Sig p365 X macro. Oh my gosh, I think it's got a compensated slide and 17 rounds plus one. It's got to You know, if you say

01:34:38

Atlanta Braves if you say Chicago Cubs if you say, you know, and and this is the problem This is the problem with men.

01:34:45

Let me just let me just pick on the men for a second. Let me just address us Do it. It's not it's not do it bro.

01:34:52

It's not that we are Not disciplined. We are men of discipline But the problem is is we're so disciplined in the things of the flesh and the temporal that we're missing

01:35:01

Being disciplined when it comes to the things of the scriptures. Yep. We completely miss it and it's okay to be disciplined

01:35:08

It's okay to be passionate and about politics about sports about guns about fitness Whatever it is be a pro whatever you're gonna do be a pro

01:35:16

But first and foremost if you have been saved by Christ, you better know God and you better know his word

01:35:22

And if you don't get more passionate more fired up more driven more

01:35:29

Focused on are being able to discuss the things of the scriptures because that's what consumes you Don't talk to me about being disciplined.

01:35:36

Don't talk to me about politics. Don't talk to me about sports You know if you can't see why

01:35:41

Mark Driscoll's a wolf Shut up. I don't want to hear it Yeah, you know

01:35:49

Good well Because just I got a piggyback off of both

01:35:55

Chris's there Which there's a funny comment that says one may say I follow Chris and another may say

01:36:01

I follow Chris But So I so last year

01:36:08

I preached a sermon and in that sermon I was in I was in a room full of people who are

01:36:14

Georgia Bulldog fans and Atlanta Braves fans, right? Now I'm a Bulldogs fan,

01:36:19

I'm a Braves fan, okay Love both of them I hope both of them win, but I distinctly said in this room full of these fans

01:36:30

I said I could care less if they don't and there's people in here today that can tell you Every stat of every

01:36:36

Braves player of every year, but they can't tell you the attributes of God And That's the truth and we have people that will show up late to church and then leave early

01:36:49

So they come at all if they come at all so that they can get the early good tailgating spot at the

01:36:55

Atlanta Falcons game or the Braves game or something like that and then they'll stay all game until the very end

01:37:02

Because you never know what kind of upset might happen and then they'll leave and in a crowd full of people

01:37:08

It isn't that we lack discipline. It isn't that we lack the ability to worship It's the object of our discipline and the object of our worship.

01:37:17

That is an idol that is sinful So if I'm gonna piggyback off the Chris's and do

01:37:22

I have to get on Drew's back at this point? Earlier we were talking about And this is all tied in we were talking about the scriptures and knowing the scriptures

01:37:38

But guys and this is this I love Chris I love Huff's passion about this and and yes, somebody said earlier

01:37:44

I loved it now Up next Chris points out the faults of women This is for everybody.

01:37:51

This is for the men and for the women. Okay. Yeah, 100 % for the men and the women. Mm -hmm It's not good enough just to even know one

01:37:59

Passage or to know one passage really well or to be to have the book of Galatians memorized

01:38:05

I've worked in so many schools. I find some it's amazing to me how the Bible quiz team is always filled with so many reprobates

01:38:11

These people who are their lives really terribly, but they have whole passages of the scriptures, you know, it's true, you know

01:38:18

Half the kids in Bible quiz never have been there, but they good memorizers right and you get you win stuff.

01:38:26

So It's not good enough The guy came into our church a long time ago when I was in high school and it was on a

01:38:32

Wednesday night and he opened up the Bible to 1st Corinthians chapter 4 and he was preaching about this guy look this guy and who he prayed this prayer and how the

01:38:43

Lord blessed him and he started giving examples from his own life about how his family needed this or needed that and they they prayed it and and they prayed this prayer and God provided it for him and the people who know what

01:38:55

I'm talking about. No, I'm talking about the prayer of Jabez, right? Yeah, you can read that passage and it's a descriptive patches of a man named

01:39:04

Jabez and a prayer that he actually did pray and how God Granted says and God granted what he requested, right?

01:39:10

So that's there that information is there but this is more than just knowing that passage you have to know about what the scriptures say about prayer you have to understand

01:39:21

And for all you people out there who aren't dispensationist you have to understand that God did interact with people

01:39:29

Differently in the Old Testament times than he does in the New Testament times He just did period even even all the the covenant guys recognized the fact that you know that he promised things to the

01:39:42

Jews And he any answer prayers for them in a way that he's not gonna answer it for us I was just gonna say we call that old covenant

01:39:51

I Know and post mill in the group You have to you have to know the scriptures not a scripture not portions of the scriptures

01:40:04

All right, you have to have a hermeneutic that allows the scriptures to interpret itself. You have to understand as you approach the scriptures

01:40:10

What's priest bricks prescriptive and descriptive you have to know? What it means and what it says by what it means

01:40:18

Exactly 100 % because there really is only one Right answer like so the post millet guy and the

01:40:25

Amil guy and the pre male guy We can't all be right. One of us is right. One of us is wrong The application can vary but the truth is going to be singular

01:40:33

So it requires all of us having to know the script chores to be able to understand any one scripture and this is where it goes to what

01:40:45

Huff was saying about the Discipline because that is not easy. And the reality is we pay a pastor to do that He spends his week studying the scriptures because we don't oh

01:40:55

No, he should spend his week studying the scriptures more than we get to but we still need to be doing bingo bingo

01:41:03

Yeah, look at your like I mean if you if you if you want to examine the your own discipline Right and and as a reminder remember biblical like discipline isn't just punitive

01:41:12

Like the whole point of discipline is to grow the whole point of discipline is to learn, you know

01:41:18

I don't I don't go to the gym Because I've been bad. I Don't go to the gym because I've misbehaved.

01:41:26

Although that could be kind of fun. I'm probably huge by now if I did Like so I I go

01:41:38

Because because it's it's I want to I'm Trying to it's a discipline to to improve my physical fitness to be able to you know the older I get

01:41:47

I want to be able to be 42 and a week and I want to be able to get down and play with my eight -year -old and then be able to pop up and not have to use

01:41:55

My hands to get up, you know, I mean, so what do I do? I go and discipline my body so that I can do that You know when it comes to when it comes to our discipline as as believers and not just men

01:42:06

But men and women Aaron, I'm glad you said that brother Like it you want to you want to test you what kind of discipline you have?

01:42:14

Compare your screen time with your Bible time and I don't just mean I don't just mean okay.

01:42:20

Well, I mean I've been reading since October November last year a proverb a day and I don't just mean we're reading through it

01:42:29

I mean sitting down praying Asking God begging the Lord through the power of the

01:42:34

Holy Spirit to illuminate his word what it means what it says by what it means and how can

01:42:40

I take that and apply that to become more and more like Like Jesus Christ. Yeah, right To know what the

01:42:47

Bible says you you want to truly truly examine what kind of discipline you have in your life

01:42:53

Look at your screen time. Look at the amount of time you spend binge watching shows Versus being in the

01:42:59

Bible look at the amount of time that you spend watching watching sports right versus reading books

01:43:05

Reading and stuff. I mean like take some time take some inventory and make the adjustments now

01:43:11

I'll say this and then Chris I know you're gonna say something, you know Understand that when you do that your flesh is gonna go to war with you it's so much easier in the flesh for us to sit down and be like Let's let's open up and watch a watch a season of SEAL team send it.

01:43:28

No, right It's so much easier to sit and go like they're uploading now There's a couple of accounts that are uploading braise games from the 90s and early 2000s, right chipper

01:43:37

Glavin Maddox smolts like that. It's so good right sit sit down and easy. It's very easy

01:43:46

It's so easy for two hours two and a half hours to go by But then you stop and you go understand that the you're not gonna get that time back

01:43:55

Like have you spent the fine? Okay, you want to do that earn it? You want to binge watch something fine earn it?

01:44:02

Structure and set apart your day to where you know who your God is now when you do that What you're gonna find is your desire to do the other things isn't gonna be there because you're gonna okay

01:44:10

I want to I want to keep reading. I want to keep growing Happening though is that guy who goes? Okay. I need to read for another 30 minutes so that I can finish that show

01:44:21

Just just stop. Yeah, just go watch the show So yeah To wait to your point about the discipline using the example of exercise

01:44:31

You go back to first Timothy 4 and he starts the that chapter with talking about those who will depart from the faith devoting themselves to deceiving spirits and teachings of demons and he goes on in verse 6 to say

01:44:43

If you put these things before the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus being

01:44:48

Trained in the words of faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed and by the way

01:44:53

English Standard Version I'm not one of these fancy LSB guys How and he says being trained in the words of the faith and good doctrine that you have followed

01:45:02

Have nothing to do with irreverent silly myths rather train yourself for godliness

01:45:09

For while bodily training is of some value Godliness is of value in every way as it holds promise for the present life and also the life to come

01:45:21

So he's you know pointing it out right here. He's saying look You you get it if you want to be healthy if you want to be strong you're gonna train and it has value more so Christian you should train for godliness and to the point of being able to look at something to go

01:45:41

That's a silly irreverent myth. That's a doctrine of demons. That is that is false. That is not of Christ That is not from the church.

01:45:48

That is a false doctrine He is he's telling Timothy to to train men to do this

01:45:56

So if your idea of going to church is it to what Aaron says? Oh, well, we've got the pastor

01:46:01

He's trained to do that and he'll teach me He's his job is not to just teach you what the

01:46:06

Bible said today and and that's your lesson and go home for the rest Of the week and live. However, his job is to train you up Just like a physical trainer will bring you into the into the gym and teach you how to use the machine

01:46:20

So you don't break something or hurt yourself the the pastor is training you

01:46:26

So that you pick up the scriptures and you study them and apply them in your lives so you can do what?

01:46:35

pursue godliness Mm -hmm. That is the opposite of what was happening at the stronger men's conference, right?

01:46:43

They were actually saying Here, we're gonna throw a whole bunch of entertainment. We're gonna throw a whole bunch of Feel -good sermons and we're gonna invite a popular, you know

01:46:53

Yeah Explosive preacher who really did explode And and everybody come here and have a good time and we'll say that we trained you to be godly

01:47:03

We trained you to be stronger, excuse me, not godly. We trained you to be a stronger man but nowhere was their training in Godliness nowhere was their training in the scriptures and that's why that thing

01:47:17

Imploded because they weren't there to do that, you know the

01:47:25

I've mentioned it several times on matter of theology episodes One of the things that is not talked about enough

01:47:34

Almost like it's forgotten. Yep is Pursuing holiness.

01:47:40

Amen the Christian pursuing a life of holiness Now we say that's not forgotten.

01:47:46

That's intentional. You don't fill seats with teaching that purpose and neglected, correct, right? So because because here's in lieu of teaching that what you're talking about Han holt's

01:47:58

Being intentional, what do we get we get the teaching of moralism?

01:48:04

We teach do the right thing Right make this decision don't make that decision

01:48:10

But it's not connected to the gospel It's not connected to the scripture and it's not connected to the pursuing of holiness in order to please and honor

01:48:21

God so Holiness is one of the things that churches need to get back to teaching and and I've when the when the term

01:48:32

Toxic masculinity first came out. I hated it I thought this is a dumb term, but now when you see the difference between the

01:48:40

Andrew Tate's right and then biblical Masculinity or what?

01:48:46

We'll go even this might step on some toes well, maybe not for this audience, but if you're on Twitter and you see some people who claim to be

01:48:55

Christian out in Utah and They're talking about Masculinity which and how you must how you keep your wife in order which is odd since they have people women in their church who act more manly on Twitter than some other place, you know,

01:49:11

I'll get off that but so anyways We see we see that nonsense in the church and it's looked at as manly and it's not looked at as holy

01:49:25

That's the problem we've exchanged these these hard hard sayings or Heart we bring in hard man podcasts and we neglect holiness

01:49:40

But we caught but but we we don't even discuss that as holy because we can't it's not holy right, right well and Chris's point earlier.

01:49:52

It's uh, you also, you know, there are ditches on both sides of the road And if you want to stay on the road stay in the scriptures

01:50:01

And don't yeah, don't be afraid to address Issues don't be afraid like it's so interesting man.

01:50:08

We've talked about we've talked to me You know, I know we're hitting on fitness a little bit like we've talked about stuff like this like why is why is it okay to address, you know, other sins of divination other sins of lack of self -control but not

01:50:23

We can't talk about certain things we can't talk about gluttony and obesity we can't bro. That's exactly where we can't talk about morbid obesity

01:50:30

We can't talk about gluttony. We can't talk about the fact that if your pastor is morbidly obese.

01:50:35

He is unqualified for the moment Because he lacks self -control and discipline nobody says that Nobody wants to say that because when you say that no, no, you can't judge me.

01:50:46

I have this going on I have that going on. Okay. I have a thyroid issue. Okay, you can very well may

01:50:53

But what are you doing like to model that like you're supposed to be the standard men

01:51:01

Set aside the pastor thing for a second if you're a husband and a father You are supposed to be you're supposed to set the standard yep a discipline and self -control

01:51:10

Like so are you not in every way in the way you speak and what you eat how you eat?

01:51:16

how you carry yourself in your home from a from a temperament standpoint to how you How you seek after holiness and how you mortify this in the flesh all that stuff, but we just we have

01:51:27

Stay on the road and how do we stay on the road by staying in the scriptures? Yep, Aaron, I'm sorry, but I cut you off.

01:51:33

No, no, I know we both came in at the same time and you're prettier. So So the the that whole idea of said the the ditches right staying in the middle is super huge because I grew up in the 80s and 90s and I Just love watching

01:51:53

Honolta's face as we're talking because you said what you said about 42 and I'm thinking to myself Are you a little whippersnapper and Chris is saying they're going shut up.

01:52:00

Just shut up But you know in the 80s in the 80s and 90s

01:52:05

You know, we on our side also Had that biblical masculinity biblical feminine, you know that 99 .9

01:52:13

% of the sex stereotypes that we talked about aren't in the Bible Yeah, okay.

01:52:19

You're not in the ever -loving Bible No, and I don't I still hear people from good conservative churches

01:52:26

You know who's for all intents and purposes They're preaching the Bible and yet they're promoting this this boys are blue and girls are pink and type of take up type of mentality which is which is convenient and it's and it's

01:52:37

Comfortable, but the funny thing is my wife and I and our and our our lives and our marriage Nearly every single joke and praise

01:52:45

God that we don't hear this as often No pastors used to make these jokes from the pulpit and husband and wife jokes and whatever else stop it guys

01:52:51

Stop it. But whatever joke was ever told whatever sex stereotype was thrown out there. Literally my wife and I were the opposite 100 % of the time we were the opposite because those things aren't actually

01:53:03

Biblical. Yes again, they're they're descriptive Do I think generally speaking that a man is gonna go out?

01:53:10

He's gonna work to provide for the family and that do I think it's fantastic and amazing that a woman Can and and should stay home and nurture the family.

01:53:18

Yes But that doesn't mean that a man can't nurture and shouldn't nurture and it doesn't mean that the wife can't go out and and and and Succeed in the workforce.

01:53:29

Okay that that cuz that's because God didn't make us that way That's not what the scriptures teach. And so yes again

01:53:35

I and so I used to call up radio shows like my whole life and I never give my name

01:53:41

I'd always go by the philosophy child and I was always the guy Trying to point at the the one question that would that would make the guy on the disc jockey right

01:53:53

Uncomfortable because I would just take everything he was saying and I just okay Well, so how does that apply to you?

01:53:59

Right and this is a situation where we find ourselves again, which really super important I think everyone here is doing a great job I'm not

01:54:04

I'm not saying that any of us are Doing something we shouldn't be doing but every single person listening all of us talking

01:54:11

We need to stop and we need to say we are guilty of the exact same things and when Huff said that we need to Stay in the middle.

01:54:16

We need to know the scriptures and To stay there. We need to absolutely

01:54:22

Not accept our own Unbiblical little things that we baptize in spirituality and framework that we're actually framework, you know

01:54:30

Yeah, speaking scriptures because we're wrong. We're just wrong most of the time and what you said Chris about About weights and diet is huge.

01:54:38

There are some sins ladies and gentlemen, listen carefully There are some sins that are more easily visible than others.

01:54:44

Yes. Let me happens to be one of those Okay, promiscuity has its marks drugs addiction has its marks a

01:54:52

Lot of choices that you can make like getting tattoos and things like that that are just gonna mark up your body in a way That people are just gonna see they're gonna see for the rest of your life

01:54:59

Well, I'm not saying that tattoos are inherently wrong I'm just making a point that there are certain choices that you make that people are going to be able to see right?

01:55:07

Well, if you're gonna make those choices It's really a leftist mentality that says that you don't get to see this this thing that I'm flashing with giant, you know giant

01:55:17

Floodlights you don't get to talk about it, right? It's like no You're you just so happens that you've chosen something your lack of self -control is evident to everybody

01:55:27

So praise God that that invites a conversation. Let's have it. Yeah and I'll add to you know, this the issue with the what

01:55:35

Chris and Aaron we're saying with these roles that we have, you know, the

01:55:43

Perception of what is manly and what is what is feminine? I'll be honest right now.

01:55:49

There's like a very almost kind of scary obsession with this 1950s fetish is

01:55:56

It's kind of what I look at it as is, you know, yeah, you know, it's the leave it to beaver You know my three sons kind of perspective of the stern father who goes to work the the the mother who stays home and does

01:56:13

Does the whole house cleaning in her in her gingham dress and everybody is this is perfect ideal

01:56:19

Americana and we've imported that into the scriptures to say this is what masculine and feminine is except that 1950s

01:56:29

Americana is not what the rest of the world looks like, you know masculine and feminine are cultural issues that we have to apply the scriptures to and so yes women are by nature nurturers and They have a role in Caring for and raising of the children, but guess what dad so do you?

01:56:52

script 100 % 100 % it says To fathers and grandfathers to teach the law to the children.

01:57:00

So guess what you're not exempt So, yes men are often out there doing the you know, the hunting the gathering the caring for the flocks and the and the women home taking care of the

01:57:19

The The tents and and and preparing the food and stuff like that, but there these are descriptive

01:57:27

Things that tend to fit the way we are created But there is no commandment that says

01:57:35

Thou shalt be a carer of the flock Husband, you know thou shalt be a carer of the tent wife

01:57:42

We can see it modeled and we can say these are things that we should Promote For the family in the home so that we are adhering to the roles given to us

01:57:54

But it isn't a commandment to make it be I leave it to beaver home You know and a whole bunch of 90s and 2000s kids have no idea what

01:58:03

I'm talking about. No You know Chris, let's take that the 1950s to leave it to beaver home

01:58:10

Now let's just go back a generation and let's apply that to the World War two generation

01:58:15

Yeah, who some people would well, I would say many people would say of men are the greatest generation, right?

01:58:22

These are men who were 16 17 lying about their age so they could go fight for their country Okay, right while the men went off to fight for the country

01:58:33

Who's who back here? Had to work the jobs in order to keep the country going the women well, so so so the 1950s model

01:58:44

Doesn't fit when you go back and look at what we consider to be the greatest generation of men

01:58:50

Yeah because why because you had to rely upon the women back home to do things that the men were

01:58:57

Doing in order just so that they had a home to come back to right and that's and that's my point is we you know

01:59:04

When we look at the scriptures What is masculine and feminine? We're we're teaching this, you know, this is not a rule book

01:59:11

So to speak it is not here's every little thing you do to be a godly man and a godly woman

01:59:16

But rather pursuing godliness this is what this looks like and then you're gonna take that at various generations in various cultures throughout all of time and Throughout all history and you're gonna apply that in those cultures and the idea that Here's this tiny sliver of time in a tiny sliver of culture that that's where that's what we need to recapture is

01:59:42

Honestly short -sighted and foolish. Yeah. Yeah, it didn't last long when you got to the 60s and then into the 70s 1950s

01:59:52

Americana wasn't 1950s Americana either. We have a Norman Rockwell picture of what it really was and it wasn't yeah

02:00:00

Melissa said, you know, I'm glad you guys are bringing up the trad wife movement. Here's the thing though Like there's no nothing wrong with the movement.

02:00:07

I honestly man. Oh, man, if I were a woman Barefoot and pregnant, you know sourdough homesteading.

02:00:14

I mean, there's so much of that. I would think there's some neat stuff in that I know I would be an awesome stay -at -home mom.

02:00:20

I tell you I would but The problem is when we say this is the only way that you can glorify

02:00:27

God, right? And that's that's the thing like the sex stereotypes Yeah saying this is how men are and this is how women are and this is how your family has to be that's where we get

02:00:36

In trouble if you have the way you can be a trad wife But that's awesome.

02:00:42

My family homeschools. Okay, I Love homeschooling. I know that not everybody can and to be completely honest on everyone should

02:00:51

But if I stood up and say homeschooling is the only way That you can glorify

02:00:56

God with your children's education, I'm a fool I am an absolute fool and that's where we need to be careful

02:01:03

Yeah as we're as we're Navigating this because everything you guys are saying is a hundred percent, right? The issue is not that do we have all these options the issues is that when we tell everyone you're you know

02:01:12

These options don't apply to you because the Bible suggests that maybe they don't yeah You know, there's because when

02:01:18

I see some of these some of these men and some of these women on Twitter talking about these things that The man's to work to provide for the family and we would we would look at that and we would say exactly we would say

02:01:30

Yeah, that's a biblical concept, right? but if Then they tack on if your wife has a job

02:01:38

You're not fulfilling your role as the man of the house. Well, no, let's because not everyone has the means to do that especially

02:01:49

Given and we're gonna get a little political here given the economy We live in where now you have to make 11 ,000 more than four or five years ago

02:02:02

In order to live that way now if you were able to live that way before and you still can hey praise the

02:02:08

Lord, you know Right do what you're doing, but not all of us can right? So My wife and I we bought this house in 2021

02:02:17

Right, so and we got it right the last time entrance interest rates were as low as they were gonna be

02:02:25

Now they're skyrocketed now. We can't afford to sell this house and get another house

02:02:30

That's this big right for the price that we're paying and even the price we're paying is too much Okay, but we can't afford this on just my salary

02:02:38

My wife has to work So that we can we can have this home now

02:02:47

Am I an unbeliever and an unfaithful husband because my wife has to have a job?

02:02:55

No, no Absolutely not. So it's ridiculous for these men to say such nonsense like that and By the way, we are into Anthony time just an update.

02:03:09

We are into Anthony time and for those Good. I was gonna push back a little bit on you just for a second

02:03:18

You might not be in sin and This is where the Christian walk This is why it's so easy for us to point fingers and be so black and white with things, right?

02:03:27

this is why it's so hard for us to see the nuance because a Man and a woman might be in this exact same situation you're in and not be sinning

02:03:37

But that might not be the best choice for your family. You might be doing it for the wrong reasons You might be doing in the wrong ways, right?

02:03:43

Sure. So what what we like to say is as long as the thing about the 1950s is that let's be honest

02:03:50

The the the state of the church in the 1950s is what has in part was the roots of where we are today

02:03:56

Right, there was so much superficiality. There was we got rid of head covering

02:04:02

All go to You know, it's not like those people were super spiritual it's just they they seem to have their life together a little bit better than We do nowadays

02:04:19

So yeah, we have to get into the nuance it we have to do the right things Yes, we have to know what those are.

02:04:25

We have to do them in the right ways Yes, we have to know what those are But we also have to do them for the right reasons and that's what the vast majority of us fail

02:04:31

We're not truly doing it to glorify God. We're doing because it's easier. We're doing because we want to we're doing it because it's

02:04:37

What the world is doing whatever our wrong motivations are So I don't understand I wanted to push back on that is that all of us need to need to be careful that we look at our lives and go

02:04:45

There are good people doing what I'm doing. I'm okay, or the Bible says that you know, this is okay So it must be okay because I mean the

02:04:53

Israelites more sacrifices were offered how and when

02:04:59

God commanded and Most of them didn't please him Because they weren't doing it from the right heart

02:05:07

So yeah, so I mean there is a way there is a way your family doesn't have to be sitting that way But they could be and are you men enough to actually to dissect it in to see if we're doing it in the way that we?

02:05:17

Should there's the question. Are you are we man enough to to do some serious self -examination and testing?

02:05:26

To see what our motives would be. Yeah, you know Aaron. I don't see that as a pushback

02:05:31

I see that as kind of clarification and filling in filling in some points when talking about motive and and things like that because you're

02:05:39

Absolutely, right So real quick. Let's mention some of our sponsors and then move on.

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02:05:59

So those are our sponsors. Okay, so We have been asked this my favorite ever.

02:06:05

They paid good money for that ad and it was That's right,

02:06:11

I Could have drawn it and drawn it out and made it so dramatic but you know,

02:06:17

I didn't want to Next week we'll do it next week I I just want to piggyback on something

02:06:23

Aaron said a lot of piggybacking going on. We're getting taller How can how can you be on my back if I'm on your

02:06:28

I'm this is well This this goes back to the stronger men's acrobat. Yeah, it's a circus act here but He said something that I don't think gets said enough and that is

02:06:43

Doing it for the glory of God So many things, okay, what's the whole point of the stronger men's conference her strong man?

02:06:51

We manly men we God make us strong entertaining goats. Yeah, I make fire

02:06:56

Yeah, we do the you know, the the Kong chest slap, right? What Everything that we do and this is where examining why we do what we do is so important Everything we do shouldn't be for my benefit

02:07:11

It should be for God's glory my sole motivation should be man,

02:07:17

I talked about this on the last episode of voice reason radio where I was working through the book of Hebrews and And it was real fast drive -by.

02:07:27

Okay, but it was here's why Jesus is better Therefore don't forsake, you know, don't fall away.

02:07:36

Here's why Jesus is better Therefore don't rebel is in the day or don't you know, you know

02:07:41

Don't be like the day of rebellion. Yeah, you know, here's why Jesus is better. Therefore, you know

02:07:48

Cling to him and I'll throw into the throne room of grace You know avoid avoid living at the world again and again and again.

02:07:56

Jesus is better. Jesus is better. Now this Jesus is better now this Everything about that letter is about pointing the reader back to Christ So as a

02:08:07

Christian, what is my motivation? Is it so that my marriage will be better or I'll push back against the culture of when the culture wars will make a

02:08:16

Christian nation Or whatever it is Yeah, that's gonna make people mad I know I don't care but The point of it should be should be am

02:08:27

I seeking to glorify Jesus Christ? He purchased me with his shed blood.

02:08:33

I deserve his wrath. I receive his grace therefore Why do

02:08:40

I why do I train for godliness because of Christ? Why do I want had to have proper roles in the home for husband wife and children because of Christ?

02:08:50

Why do I want the the church to speak out against the evils of our day because of Christ?

02:08:56

I want 20 Romans 8 1st Corinthians 11. That's what Chris just referenced all three of those Jesus Christ I am here to glorify and lift up his name.

02:09:05

I should be willing to be said of me. I Lived a life fulfilling the

02:09:11

Christ was died and forgotten That would that Christ was made much of in my life and if I can't do that Then all the things that I promote all the chest slapping all the hoorah big manly man stuff

02:09:26

You know making my you know, making a great 1950s on what it doesn't matter

02:09:31

Yeah, because it made much of me and if we are doing that then we're no better than a

02:09:38

Driscoll or a Lindell then and and I'm glad you said that because I was gonna kind of bring it kind of full circle for a second is

02:09:45

You know, what's what is the goal? What is the goal of our salvation?

02:09:52

What is the end game of our salvation its glorification and the sanctification along the process from Salvation to glorification and In that process the whole point of everything we do should be what we see in Romans 8 29

02:10:09

To be predestined to become conformed into the image of Christ That's the goal

02:10:15

Here's another good Self -examination with the people closest to you with those in your circles with those in your church with those in your home with those in your workplace with they could they say

02:10:26

I See Christ in him. Mm -hmm He is he's he's striving.

02:10:32

He's fit. Yeah, he fails we all do But but he's striving to become conformed more and more into the image of our

02:10:41

Lord. Jesus Christ. He is He's carrying around with him That that attitude that focus, you know, one of the things that Alex and I like to say all the time is group before the individual

02:10:55

And and and we see that theme throughout scripture is good before the individual husbands Your wife and your family before you

02:11:03

You know, is that how you're operating in the church? Understanding that the group comes before the individual and and with a guy like Driscoll.

02:11:11

It's always individual before the group And he models that with a guy like James McDonald. It was always the individual before the group

02:11:19

That's that's and and there are those who who have in turn imitated that and and and reciprocated that So that's a good question to ask yourself.

02:11:26

It's just like, you know, are you? Do you look like Christ are you on that process of looking more like Christ go ahead and that's what you're that's what you see if you go back a couple years ago with all the

02:11:39

Apostate songwriters and stuff. They just kind of left right church, right? Yeah, you you read their

02:11:47

Instagram posts and all this stuff as to why they left and what's the focus the focus is the individual

02:11:53

Right. It's all about every time me every time and so that's exactly it now I I do need to add because I'm apparently

02:12:00

I missed a sponsor of the show I got to get so I'll just say it this way. I'll say squeak squeaker squeak squeaky squeak squeak squeak it in squeak squeaker and what

02:12:11

I said was in squirrel was One of the sponsors of the show is squirrely

02:12:17

Joe's coffee So now thank you squirrely Joe To interpret it

02:12:25

Speaking in tongues. Okay, where's during an air and you beat me to it? I Didn't know drove gentia was a charismatic gift.

02:12:32

Okay No, it's actual language. This is an actual language. This is there was an interpreter

02:12:38

Exactly. There was an interpreter as an actual way. He interpreted himself No I Cronk sister terrorists.

02:12:49

Yeah. Yeah, you got it. That's what I was going for. Yes I was the interpreter

02:12:58

Melissa's Melissa. Yes. Yeah, I do want to get to that. So Before I do I want to I want to say before we get to Melissa's comment.

02:13:06

I hope this talk about Driscoll Manliness what the Bible says about it

02:13:13

Character especially in terms of a pastor and especially being a man of God in general

02:13:19

Hope that it has been helpful for you But we're going to get to a comment that Melissa gave earlier today

02:13:27

Well earlier in the show Feels like earlier today because we've been going for a while But Melissa says you guys might not be comfortable answering this.

02:13:37

I respect you regardless Do you guys feel that Doug Wilson crosses the line with his views on husbands and wives?

02:13:46

Yes Let me Have some stinking lutely, you know, let me say this

02:13:54

I haven't followed a lot of what Doug Wilson has said on marriage now some of the things

02:14:00

I have heard Sound pretty reasonable pretty biblical I haven't heard some of the other things that people now

02:14:07

I've just heard snippets, right? I haven't dug into his Writings on the subject or even some of his messages and stuff, but as And I've said on this podcast, especially

02:14:22

I've I Have appreciated a lot of what Doug Wilson has said in terms of the culture when he speaks on the culture

02:14:30

But the more and more I look at Doug Wilson He seems to be more of a political talking head than an actual pastor and so I Actually don't really follow

02:14:44

Doug Wilson and what he really says anymore. I don't really pay attention to him I don't listen to the blog and may blog anymore haven't for quite a while They have they came out with the

02:14:56

Canon press app and initially I had it until they updated it changed it

02:15:01

Increased prices on it once and then I said, okay, I'm done. Don't need it.

02:15:07

Anyway, I Can I can give my funds to something else that's beneficial?

02:15:12

So and I've actually I can't remember the last time I've even quoted Doug Wilson on social media or anything like that so I It's at least been five years, yeah, it's been a while and so I have

02:15:25

I Have intentionally really just not paid attention to Doug Wilson and kind of shunned away from listening now

02:15:33

Does that mean I think he's an unbeliever? No, no, does that mean I think he's a wolf?

02:15:38

No, I just think he has some bad views and some bad takes and I think some of those might come in The form and possible motivation

02:15:48

Aaron you might be able to correct me if I'm wrong Possible motivation of being for a shock and awe value.

02:15:53

I don't know cuz I don't know his heart, right? But it sometimes it seems that way

02:15:59

So I've just intentionally kind of moved away from from listening and paying attention to Doug Wilson Because what

02:16:11

I was gonna say is I don't know what we're talking about and I want an example Yeah, I was gonna my simple thing is

02:16:17

I don't know that much about Doug Wilson What I have seen has come because other people have shared it

02:16:26

I listened to maybe one blog and may blog episode simply because dr.

02:16:31

White Suggested it, you know something about it sounded kind of good What I I've not

02:16:37

I think I have like one Kindle book a big buy -in because it was given out free haven't read it

02:16:43

Um what I have observed a coffee in the house awesome

02:16:49

But what I have observed of him is he is clearly a very intellectual or very intelligent and very

02:17:01

Articulate individual and the things that I have seen him say his his ability to assess kind of what's going on and Respond to it is really good so his ability to come, you know to identify problems to Point people at what's going on and to speak at least the things

02:17:23

I've seen that are decent in a biblical manner The guy is is really sharp very and and I would also say

02:17:35

His being kind of the progenitor of the whole Christian nationalist movement He has been far more

02:17:44

Reasonable Than some of those that he is birthed. Yes, and To that end you can see you can see how well how different it's become because they are starting to eat him alive

02:17:58

Because they consider him too moderate that scares the daylights out of me. Yeah With that said a humble clay

02:18:05

Doug is a wordsmith. Yes Perfect description even wrote a book about yeah wordsmithing.

02:18:11

Yes. Yeah To that end. I think that's one of the things that makes figuring out what to do with him difficult because the things that Get brought up the the issues about you know, his use of men and women in marriage

02:18:27

His past experience his past support of federal vision, which nobody seems to be clear whether he's ever

02:18:33

Really renounced renounced a clear answer of it, right? And some of the other things make him so difficult to to figure out what to do

02:18:43

This is kind of what Aaron was pointing out earlier. There are clear wolves There are people that have doctrinal differences and then there's a spectrum and for me

02:18:53

Doug Wilson is a live wire It's like the energy coursing through that can be put to very good use

02:19:01

But it's also could be very very dangerous. And so what do you do with that?

02:19:07

And so like like you drew I've kind of gone Yeah, I I can Listen to so many good godly men who proclaim the gospel and proclaim the truth that don't carry that kind of Risk that I would rather put my time and energy into those ministries actually.

02:19:26

Yeah, then to Try to tiptoe through a land minefield and that's what I that's what

02:19:31

I feel like it's I think it's the best way I can Describe it Doug Wilson is a minefield. Yeah you where you place your feet could be good or Could be life -altering in a bad way.

02:19:42

And so yeah, I kind of just go I Really don't want to go down that path. Yeah, Drew.

02:19:48

I've I said that two years ago, right? It's like I mean there are things that that I've heard Doug say that I'm like, yeah right on spot -on

02:19:56

But however because of the minefield because of the the the seemingly sinful hold on the the carnal and carnality

02:20:11

I Just I just I stay away and I would I would advise others to do the same not not because I think he's a wolf

02:20:17

Not because he's a false teacher not because he's not a believer Not because someone couldn't benefit from his teaching that that's not it at all it's it's the the hold on the carnality the

02:20:28

And the the wordsmith thing. I mean that that's super important If you're a wordsmith, you can you know, you can you don't have to wait

02:20:36

No, no, no, you know, you don't well, you don't have to use profanity But then you have to be careful with wordsmiths because they can twist things

02:20:42

I can twist it and not be clear on stuff but then leave the Leave some and be discerning, you know, and or you know weaker brothers going.

02:20:52

Oh, yeah. See he said he's against federal vision Mm -hmm. Did you actually listen to what he said? No, he didn't No, he hasn't like he hasn't completely renounced that and said no that was wrong.

02:21:01

That was sinful. I've repented to that I do not hold to that at all So so yeah, that's um,

02:21:08

I mean, I Have personal friends of mine who have benefited and continue to benefit from his ministry and from his teaching

02:21:16

Not for me I have the exact same experience that you guys have early on was following him then it was like there are better options

02:21:24

I actually been spending a lot more time recently with Keith Foskey who considers himself the harbor freight.

02:21:30

Yeah I love I love Keith so much that I don't I don't need you know,

02:21:36

Doug in my life because I've got Keith But specifically Melissa's point she's she's curious about what she's defining as a hyper patriarchy

02:21:47

And I can't really speak to it because and I I haven't as well Followed him enough to nobody saying on the topic but I am familiar with these these ideas going around about hyper patriarchy and And it's always going to come back to what the scriptures say the scriptures do say

02:22:08

That men are to lead their wives the scriptures do say that women are to submit to their husbands the scriptures do say

02:22:16

That the relationship between the husband and the wife and the children are what it is. Okay, so that is clear We're talking about application beyond that Okay And I want to be fair I want to be fair so as an example of maybe something that would fall under hyper patriarchy

02:22:33

The the family bank account, right The woman is not allowed to spend anything without giving an accounting for it

02:22:39

Like she needs permission to blah blah blah blah blah. It's really easy for people to look at that and To say that's unacceptable.

02:22:47

It shouldn't need to be that way and so on and so forth But again, I want to go back to what I said earlier Maybe that's what that woman needs

02:22:53

Maybe that woman has no self -control when it comes to spending and the most loving thing that man can do is to give her

02:23:02

Limits. I have a friend who whose husband is not like that at all But she said that she you know had he suggested that she do the envelope

02:23:11

You know the the Ramsey envelope thing where this is the money that you have and this is for this and this is for that And when the money's gone, it's gone because she needed to learn

02:23:21

So I I just want to encourage us It's really easy to point at somebody who's that who does things differently than we do and to say, you know, they're wrong

02:23:29

Right, but let's bring it back to what the scriptures say Let's all agree on that and then when it comes to application

02:23:35

Let's make certain that the right thing is being done in the right way for the right reasons and oftentimes guys We don't even know why we do what we do

02:23:42

We're not in the place to judge why other people do what they do Now obviously there are such things as abuse, but that is not hyper patriarchy

02:23:50

That's actual abuse the the biblical word for that is unloving right the biblical word for that What that guy is doing in that moment is sin the toxic man

02:23:59

Masculinity the the the hyper patriot patriarchy We're actually confusing the issue when we talk about that I want to know what

02:24:07

Doug Wilson said What did he say about the husband -and -wife relationship and I want to compare that to what the scriptures say?

02:24:13

I want to do that with any person out there speaking on the husband -and -wife relationship and I won't compare it to what the scriptures say and if he's saying these are good ideas in these situations and Sometimes it seems a little extreme to us

02:24:23

Okay, fine They might be but if he's saying this is the only way to glorify God Well, then we have to take it with a grain of salt.

02:24:29

So that's kind of again It's not really answering the question. Listen, I'm sorry about that I know that you had a specific concept that you wanted us to address and I wish we all knew a little bit more about What he said, but I think it's there's great value and us recognize we have to be careful before we go casting those stones

02:24:45

We definitely need to look to the log in our own eyes Before we eviscerate somebody else's position that maybe especially one that we don't know that well,

02:24:56

I think it's pretty good It's good Melissa just Melissa just She just clarified she was thinking more along the lines like, you know the

02:25:06

Bill Gothard movements That's how we type of stuff. And again, what's what's identified in Gothard and and groups like that?

02:25:13

Their sin is far more seminal. It had nothing to do with parenting. It had nothing to do with husbands and wives

02:25:19

It had to do with the fact of like, you know, sure legalism was a part of it There's an externalism that was a part of it

02:25:26

But really came down to self -worship it came down to men standing up there and basically saying I'm God Because I know the

02:25:33

Bible doesn't specifically say this but I'm saying if you're not doing this You're not a good husband and the moment that a man says that moment that we make those statements

02:25:39

We're putting ourselves in the place of God. We're being pharisaical and that's where we're gonna get ourselves in trouble

02:25:47

Yep, I think that's good. I think it's a that's wise.

02:25:53

I think I'm oh, there we go. I thought my mouse died That's gonna be terrible to just hold time but I think

02:26:04

Kofi had a had a really good comment. I wanted to bring up Yeah, this is it

02:26:12

He said unpopular opinion he bores me and I would like to I would actually like to hear it in Kofi's Accent Disrespect my brother

02:26:27

Kofi by attempting that accent. No, I did you notice I didn't right you notice

02:26:32

I didn't But he says the good stuff He says is found elsewhere without the wild stuff and he's absolutely right and I've had the chance to spend the day

02:26:40

Listening to him sound off on a number of issues, you know And you know, he makes a good point even even when

02:26:47

I say I've appreciated things that he's written on the culture Someone else has said it somewhere else and You can even go back especially in terms of liberalism and conservatism

02:27:00

You can go back to Jay Gershom Machen, right? You can go back to Martin Lloyd -Jones. You can go back to Greg Bonson You can go back to these men who have dealt with some of those issues and and they've talked about it

02:27:13

You know, it's Doug Wilson says it in probably a more simpler way I guess without the academia behind it

02:27:20

Which I think can draw people in because he is such a wordsmith and he has a weight of saying things

02:27:25

So that people are have it have a better ability to understand it, which is you know the case with me

02:27:31

I'm just a simple guy, right? I'm not a very I'm not a very academic type person. I've got to work at those things

02:27:37

She's a good old boy That's what I'm talking about but But I think that that's some of the draw into into into Wilson in the way he puts things

02:27:50

But to Kofi's point someone else has said it and they've probably said it in a more beneficial way

02:27:56

Without all the wild stuff that Doug brings into it and I would just say, you know be be cautious of wordsmiths

02:28:03

I mean, yeah, some people are skilled at Being able to communicate via written word and You can get a lot from them but Just because they're skilled at making it sound good doesn't necessarily convey

02:28:23

That they are the best resource or the best expert in the field

02:28:32

Hesitant to say it this way. I've had people say for example that I can string words together fairly decently.

02:28:39

Okay, that Does not mean that I am nearly as knowledgeable as a number of people

02:28:45

Just because I can, you know put an article together and Make it make sense doesn't mean

02:28:53

I have the command of the topic the way I should and There are people who are very good and very articulate at what they say

02:29:01

But they may not have the level of knowledge that you think they do so take, you know be appreciative for people that God is equipped to to be articulate and to be

02:29:13

Concise and be able to communicate well, but that doesn't alleviate the responsibility of you as the reader

02:29:22

Doing it you're doing your own work You know Yeah, Marie and be a brilliant and make so just because Doug Wilson is a wordsmith

02:29:32

Doesn't mean that we should take everything he says Without any problems, you know it

02:29:39

Do the work It is what he's saying the best biblical way to address it or are you just impressed with his ability to Communicate it and I'm not trying to I'm not trying to denigrate

02:29:52

Doug in this regard I'm just saying there are some people when you read them

02:29:57

You're like, whoa that that comes across so clear so smart so wise and we can be lured in by that and Can be maybe let those defenses down and not do that extra work.

02:30:10

So be cautious of that, you know Everybody likes to joke about you know, all the books

02:30:15

I've won, right? I have read a very small percentage of these but yet I can string together some decent sentences

02:30:21

Why because for 25 years, that's what I did. I wrote reports So don't allow the ability to communicate something

02:30:33

Overwhelm you into lowering your defenses and not doing the work yourself. I would just put it that way this comes back

02:30:40

Yeah, full circle. Yep, right back to discernment, you know, Chris you mentioned having a right report.

02:30:45

So now I'm in a sales position So so what we use a program called

02:30:52

Salesforce and I have to log calls, right? I have to log, you know Kind of what we talked about and stuff that way if anyone if I'm out anyone has the comes in behind me they can pull up that and they can see what we talked about and stuff, but every

02:31:06

Friday we have a sales team meeting and We're basically talking about our business our book of business and we're talking about our region.

02:31:16

Yep, and being being able to speak and put words together

02:31:23

I can take Very little of what I've done and I can make it seem like it's the greatest thing.

02:31:31

Yes, right now my numbers are Really good for only being in this position a short time but I can speak to those numbers like I've been doing it for 15 years and like I've been like I'm I'm Like I'm always on the phones.

02:31:47

I'm not like I'm always Sending the emails. I'm not right. I'm strategic in how

02:31:52

I work I have a specific funnel that I'm that I'm working things through and it's paying off But I can speak to that in such a way that makes the owner think that I'm going way above and beyond Now I don't do that because that would be dishonest, right?

02:32:08

I speak to the truth of what I'm doing and how I'm growing my business But it's nothing to take just a little sliver when you're a good communicator or someone who's written reports or or Who knows maybe philosophy or psychology?

02:32:23

Maybe the way that that Aaron does and able to Listen when you use big words

02:32:35

Really helps to make you sound photosynthesis No, hey man, you know what it excites me super cat

02:32:52

But back to the point we're getting about Doug Wilson You just got to know a little bit and how to word it and you can make it sound fantastic Well, I always used to say that when

02:33:02

I wrote my reports I wanted to be able to tell every single judged I took somebody took a probationer back in front of I told you so that was

02:33:09

I just wanted to write that and you had to learn how to say that without basically flipping the judge the bird and So much of what

02:33:19

I wrote was basically saying Here's here's what happened. Here's what you did judge despite that opportunity.

02:33:25

Here's what he did That's essentially saying I told you so but way to go It's a learning how to be able to articulate and communicate and make an argument and convince people is a skill that you develop and some people are

02:33:42

Excellent at it doesn't mean they're not knowledgeable. It doesn't mean that they're not right It just means just because they're skilled at it doesn't mean you don't have the the duty to be

02:33:52

Discerning as Aaron said. Oh, yeah, so so so She brought up another question and oh my so That that goes back to you, you know

02:34:04

The Colossians 2 8 see to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men

02:34:10

According to the elementary principles of the world and not according to Christ that that phrase drew

02:34:15

We did a podcast on it, right that phrase see to it, you know, be aware be on guard on the

02:34:22

Offensive not sitting back on your heels. You're you're you're it's forward -leaning. You're seeing to it that no one takes you

02:34:28

Captive kidnaps you is is the language there? Kidnaps you against your will almost through philosophy and empty deception

02:34:39

You know, so so just because someone can to Chris's point to Aaron's point to Drew's points like just because someone can

02:34:47

Do that doesn't mean that they're to be trusted right right test everything just test it all

02:34:52

Yeah, when I speak I want to be clear so that you understand What I'm saying and where I line up especially if I'm preaching

02:35:02

Now I got a I got a bounce here here soon. I love the anti time and man Oh, man, I keep going but I do

02:35:08

I do need to leave but I do want to address this question from Melissa real quick Yeah, let me read it real quick.

02:35:14

So Melissa so for for listeners who can't watch Melissa says should women vote

02:35:20

I was told that the biblical patriarchy view condemns this Sorry for all the questions.

02:35:26

Don't be sorry for all your questions the point of the show Okay, so here's what

02:35:33

I think about again that I I'm going to I'm gonna I'm gonna make the answer uncomfortably difficult for us

02:35:41

No, not all of them should And but here's the thing not every guy should either not every guy should

02:35:48

Yeah So Now I will say this and this this might be one of those perfect moments to like just Just kick the hornet's nest and then leave

02:36:01

Say it in the logout the scriptures do make an interesting observation that when it comes to certain things that And and and I wish

02:36:12

I wish I had the time to really build this out biblically But there is a certain level of shall

02:36:18

I use the word naivety? there is a certain level of Being careful like the women having to recognize the fact that they they are easily

02:36:28

Manipulated if they are not being discerning and careful the scriptures make that point and it makes that point repeatedly

02:36:35

So therefore like any person whether it's a young person or man or a woman doesn't matter We all bear the responsibility to listen to what's being told to us to to interpret it

02:36:43

Biblically and then act in a way that glorifies God It's knowing understanding and wisdom is then living out that information

02:36:49

So no, there are lots of people doing tons of things that they shouldn't be doing There are plenty of women out there who have proven they are driving procreating

02:36:58

Exactly. They should not be they should not be doing this now. We don't live in a government. We're able to say

02:37:04

You know and therefore You don't get to Right because that's not the

02:37:10

American government in which we live. Okay, and I'm okay with that. All right I'm not a Christian nationalist and we're never gonna be able to get to that point

02:37:18

Even if we did make everyone do what we wanted them to do, we haven't fixed anything.

02:37:23

Okay, they're still on their way to hell But no, not every woman should but to your specific question that you're asking

02:37:31

You know the biblical patriarchy view that says that woman shouldn't vote are getting it half, right?

02:37:38

and they're only getting it half right because they're not digging deeper to understanding why

02:37:44

They're saying that they're just Their answers for that aren't biblical their answers for that generally don't cite any scripture whatsoever.

02:37:51

It's just about you know control But we need to do something better than that. So again, come on kicking that hornet's nest a little bit and logging off I love you guys, and we are all we are all blind.

02:38:05

We are all delusional Insanity is by definition living in sin So we are all insane people who choose to worship ourselves over God and it shows in everything

02:38:15

We do both the stuff that we do that that is clearly sinful on the outside Okay, the things that show our lack of self -control, but also the things that we do that on the outside look good

02:38:26

We are still in sin when we're doing it out of worship for self. So we all need to be careful It's not about men or about women.

02:38:31

It's about all of us recognizing that God knows best and we don't He's not guys love you, all right

02:38:36

Aaron if you want to do a show next week just text me Let me know if you have any ideas or anything or if you're able to All right.

02:38:43

See you later So just to kind of dovetail a bit off of what Aaron said

02:38:50

The I agree with him be on the whole biblical patriarchy women can't vote kind of thing is it's it's like a mixture of Here's what the

02:39:00

Bible said husbands were to lead their wives. They're responsible. They're the car, you know, they cover their wives and the wives need to submit to their husbands and then it's by the way the way this country was set up it was you know there was like the the the voting was done by the landowners and it was a certain certain select group of people and Women weren't were allowed to vote and when we allowed it to go to everybody and then the women to vote then all this bad stuff happened so there's like this mixture of what the

02:39:28

Bible says about what patriarchy looks like and then throwing in a cultural analysis to then say therefore

02:39:36

Husbands should be the only ones voting women should never be allowed to vote because it brought in feminism Therefore women voting bad and this is

02:39:44

I've watched this argument happen multiple times online I don't believe there's any biblical support to simply say

02:39:52

Women should not vote be a because biblical patriarchy. I believe what it is is an effort to find application for the you know the the husband or the father being the head of the home and therefore the the daughter or the wife being in submission to that person and Therefore by extension only he his voice is the one that should be

02:40:20

The one making the vote and and I've seen people even say like one family vote

02:40:26

Like not not if you've got I've got two, you know adult aged male children now

02:40:32

And they can vote but according to you know, some who are Applying this or they're trying to say no no family one family vote because the the dad and the husband is the spiritual head therefore and to me the problem that I see with that is

02:40:48

There's no biblical warrant for that application You're taking a cultural thing that are not described in Scripture.

02:40:56

The voting is not described in Scripture in Scripture, right? And so you're trying to take something that was not in view when the scriptures were written describing the roles of men and women

02:41:07

Yeah, because you you honored the king You know you submitted to the authority now unlike the

02:41:16

You need to love your neighbor and get vaccinated people who say submit to the authorities that's not what was in view what was in view is basically being a

02:41:24

Being a law -abiding citizen so that you did not bring a reproach upon your name or in the church's name so that to therefore give excuse to the government to come down on you and Attack the church and attack

02:41:37

Christ you were to be a law -abiding citizen. So that would even when they did do that you were

02:41:43

Everybody went it's because you didn't do anything illegal. It's because you're a Christian that you're being being persecuted that was the clarity of that but You're to honor the king you're to obey the laws and therefore now what does this look like for the

02:41:58

Christian how do we live and So the idea that we can say women shouldn't vote because too emotional no spiritual head

02:42:08

Feminism, etc. There's just not a warrant for that. You're extending. I believe beyond what the

02:42:15

Bible describes for men leading their homes You're extending it into an area that the scriptures didn't even address and You're doing it because you don't like the way the culture is right now

02:42:30

Yeah Yeah, you know, there's a now I Absolutely love the answer that Aaron gave

02:42:37

And I think he's right on especially when he says yeah men shouldn't there's some men that shouldn't vote as well

02:42:44

He's absolutely right now this view of biblical patriarchy condemns this condemns

02:42:52

Whoa, Chris dipped What in the world? And he didn't say

02:42:59

I got I got a bounce too, so I I don't think he meant to do that yeah, but you know what kind of You know,

02:43:06

I'll say this and I'll let you give your answer and then and then we'll we'll end it but I think some of these men are actually

02:43:16

Taking wrong views of oh here. He is My bad, my bad.

02:43:21

Well, yeah, Chris Han holts So I was just I was just saying I'll give my view

02:43:27

Chris can give his view and then we'll kind of call it a show but I think some of these men are getting a wrong view of History and I think some people who view take that view history as though women weren't allowed to vote

02:43:43

I think they don't understand that in the right way Now if we go all the way back to when voting started it was just the elected officials who voted say for president right

02:43:53

Congress would vote for right in who they wanted to be president and you know, if the first One who got the most votes that was a president.

02:44:02

The second one was vice president. That's how we got George Washington John Adams In that way and then it expanded right we saw this progression

02:44:12

It was a progression to the landowners and then it you know, it just kind of trickled down but for a long time

02:44:18

It wasn't that women weren't allowed to vote It was that you you did vote as a family unit

02:44:25

But the family it wasn't just the man that said well, I'm I'm the man of the house

02:44:31

I'm gonna go I decide who we vote for it was the family decided who's the best option and then the family voted as a unit and Then you know, we kind of came off of that into The women's rights and you know women voting and things like that Now should women vote good question.

02:44:57

I Think I think everybody Before there be able to have a say yeah given given that privilege.

02:45:04

I think they at least need to be able to Articulate what the points of the Constitution are and be able to we should have a test in order to be a hundred percent

02:45:14

I mean men and women alike. So yeah, so I'm my closing thoughts and then I got I got I got a bounce but It's very simple for me.

02:45:25

I'm like you drew. I'm just a southern guy Just keep it simple. Just just just keep it simple.

02:45:31

It's you know for people who would say stuff like that the hyper patriarchy the you know

02:45:38

That that that use that in an unloving way to use Aaron's words I think I think it just all comes down to just something very simple frameworks frameworks and It's it's it's you just we always have to be not only testing the spirits

02:45:54

But when I say testing the spirits testing ourselves to make sure that we are not Reading our frameworks into what scripture says

02:46:01

That we are gleaning our frameworks from what scripture says in all things as it applies to all things as it applies to how we live life as Redeemed souls in a fallen world understanding that we are sojourners here.

02:46:17

We're strangers. We are aliens We are longing for to be at our with the

02:46:22

Lord in the heavens. We're citizens of heaven but we have a responsibility here to You know as we grow in holiness as we grow and sanctification to to represent

02:46:34

Christ His kingdom in his church well, so we just have to constantly be on guard and making sure that we

02:46:44

That we are not in any because it's so easy to do that. We're not reading our frameworks into what the Bible says and in even the smallest detail and it's it's it's a very very easy thing to do to Take you any sort of tradition that we've been a part of or heard about or read about or seen

02:47:02

As we're watching so well, whatever it is fill in the blank that we're not reading that into what the scriptures teach that we are

02:47:08

Desiring to be Bereans to test ourselves and to test everything against the backdrop of the entire

02:47:13

Council of God's Word so when you see stuff like this when you see the hyper patriarchy when you see the

02:47:21

The the things taken to the extreme whether it be the hyper patriarchy thing or the the extreme dispensationalism or hyper

02:47:27

Calvinism or whatever It is it's it's an issue of frameworks. And so brothers and sisters we got to be discerning and we've just got to make sure that that our frameworks come from the scripture that we

02:47:38

That we're seeking to follow first Corinthians 1031 and Colossians 317 and all that we do according to the

02:47:44

Word of God Yeah So yeah If I can't make a biblical case for it an actual biblical case for it

02:47:51

Then it's something I just I should probably dismiss Well, that was a great show.

02:47:57

There's a long show And I want to thank my guests Chris Honholtz Chris Hough and of course

02:48:03

Aaron Brewster for stopping by having this chat with us about Mark Driscoll character

02:48:10

Voting women voting obviously and you know patriarchy And Doug Wilson, you know, it's always a good show when you throw all those things together

02:48:21

Anyway, we're gonna get out of here Not sure of the topic that's gonna be next week.

02:48:26

I'm gonna have to come up with something but Stay tuned also be in prayer for Andrew Justin and Jim as they're doing their traveling through the

02:48:36

Philippines and preaching and teaching Be in prayer for them and be in prayer for the people of the