Mark Driscoll being Mark Driscoll

Where's the intro? Well, hello.

No, this is not Andrew Rappaport this is the other Drew and Apparently, I don't know where the background music is or the intro music. So we just picked this nice Soothing music to open up the show. I've got my sidekick with me here Lawson my firstborn.

Say hey Lawson. No, no, so you say hey, hey. Lawson say hey. All right. Well, let's turn that off and let's get into today's show. So first welcome to apologetics live. Apologetics live is a Podcast ministry from striving for eternity where we seek to basically deal with cultural issues.

Hey, buddy, sit down.

A.

Coat cultural issues of the day, but we want to do so from a biblical perspective and we want to do so in a Firm manner, but that is most importantly Christ honoring and my son just cannot get set. But given the topic of today, I have to bring in my other two guests and that is Mr. Chris Han Holtz from voice of reason.

How you doing brother?

I am doing fantastic and it's good to see you and in your son. So I need to see him with you.

He is he knows we're alive. And so he knows this is his time to shine and let me bring in my other guest my co-host from Matter of theology. I almost forgot the podcast because we haven't done it in a lot.

But mr. Chris, huh real both of these guys really need no introduction here as they are regulars on apologetics live. But first, how are you guys doing what's been going on in your life? Good, man. Good just as you would say live in the dream.

That's right. Trying not to wake up. That's right.

Nothing crazy over here just.

Plugging along brother playing along. That's right. Chris Han Holtz. What's been going on in your life?

Same old same old just, you know still getting used to the new security job and you know taken, you know. Thankfully enjoying the part-time aspect of it because that won't last much longer. Are you going on?

Yeah the position there? They're finally getting me set that they've been putting me through the various classes for will be coming up and see here shortly. So that'll it it. It was kind of funny. I worked 40 hours a week in law enforcement and I'll now be working.

Almost 48 Hours on the new job, so I'll have even more hours, which was not exactly how I expected retirement to go but. But I've been taking advantage of the free time to spend a little bit more time writing and trying to work on the show.

Unfortunately, our our good friend Rich is my partner is his family just been going through a lot of trials right now. So he hasn't been able to be on the program. So if y 'all would keep him in your prayers him and his family just pray for a story.

Yes. Yeah. I know he'd greatly appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah.

It's been it's been quite a while since we've had a voice of reason I think with both of you. Yeah, it's been a bit Yeah, but it's looking at the comments. I see we have Melissa. She says I would rather see Lawson's face than Andrews mug.

I think everyone shares that sentiment. He's he's a cutie pie, aren't you? He's saying something. I don't know what he's saying, but he knows what he's saying. So but Chris had to step backstage, but let's uh, let's kind of talk about today's Topic so I really wanted to hit this earlier before everyone else did and welcome back to the show.

Thanks, buddy. I could hear everything.

Yeah, but I really wanted to tackle this before everyone else but you know. We were kind of late to it and Justin Peters did a couple of episodes on this with Gabe Hughes Phil Johnson. A lot of people have been hitting this from different angles and that is the issue with Mark Driscoll.

And what happened at the strongman conference? And what it Really boils down to is you see the title of the show mark Driscoll being mark Driscoll.

And.

We we really can say this is nothing new. It's typical mark Driscoll.

At.

Some point you would think he would wise up. But he hasn't. You know at some point the young restless and reformed have to become the mature in biblical and apparently they're not. What are your guys initial thoughts before we really dive into what at what happened.

Uh, uh, I mean brother you and I drew you and I have dealt with Driscoll a bunch on matter of theology Driscoll and those who Want to be like Driscoll those dollar general mark Driscoll's out there. So general mark Driscoll's.

Yes. Yep. Yep. Yep one in particular I know you and I are thinking of but You know. It's sad I I think um, i've been trying, you know, ever since I knew we were going to talk about this and ever since I knew it happened just because of um the history that you and I have with uh.

That aim almost just came out. Um, uh with uh with those who would be you know disciples of Driscoll.

Um.

As as close as we were to that and um as um. As the details continue to unfold as time as the lord uses time to do the heavy lifting the details that come out as far as. What really happened? And then now what has happened since all of the initial?

Kerfuffle took place. Um, yes, I said kerfuffle um, it's just it's just sad and I think uh um, you know, I may get into this a little bit more later, but I think what we're seeing and the reason that Driscoll still has a following I think the reason that.

Now and what's funny is you listen to him talk now like it's not as harsh or as sharp uh in the way he words things he kind of tries to soften it up, but he still tries to say the Heavier things but say it like this and so it comes across like like i'm like i'm mature and I care.

Um.

I mean, but but but the point is with mark driscoll. He's. He's still the same the same grifter. And the same person who is out for mark driscoll.

And.

For the clicks and the likes. And now he has set everything up to. To to where no one can come after him. Uh, you know, he has no elders in his church. No leadership. So um, but it's just sad and and I'll say this and then turn it over to uh captain over here, so um but uh I think the reason that we see guys like driscoll continue to have a following.

And chris kind of hit on this on on twitter today. But then chris and I have talked about this a bunch when we talk on marco polo.

Is.

There's such a vacuum uh, if you will of truly Masculine masculine masculine not masculine masculine biblical men out there. Uh that so many and and even in our circles, uh, not so much our circles anymore but um just outside of our circles, but but so many so many Christians flock to a guy like driscoll is because he stands up chest out chin up.

Um.

Sometimes says the things that need to be say said but but it doesn't take away from.

Uh.

His the the consequences of his actions in the past. So we'll get into that i'm sure as we go. But those are some of my initial thoughts.

Yeah, go ahead. Chris, uh hon hon holtz, I need to clarify go ahead hon holtz, uh add on to that.

Yeah, I think I would echo a lot of what huff said. Um. With regard to mark driscoll man when this whole thing exploded. And some of us spoke up and said hold on a second. Um, remember who we're talking about.

This is not someone to be cheering on or emulate. Um in all likelihood. There's There's more to this story than meets the eye and and the reaction. On the part of some people I mean I. The nice thing about the way I have my twitter feed set up now is if you don't follow me.

I don't see your notifications so I. It's a much more enjoyable Use of the of the site now. Um, a lot of trolls just go completely unanswered because I don't know they're there but I will go back because some people are legitimately giving, you know, reasonable Responses and so i'll scroll through just to see if there's anything that needs response.

And there were so many Rip, uh replies to the uh to the effect of how dare you? He needed to say this. I can't believe you have a problem with. I can't believe you're defending. Uh, you know james river church and none of that was the case.

I you mentioned. Um Justin peter's program. I watched both of those and they were fantastic. If you haven't watched them You've got to take time. There's you're looking about three plus hours of video content, but absolutely excellent commentary on the whole thing.

And.

One of the things that justin said is in his second video is. Even though they had said james river church stronger men's conference. Nothing but a goat factory. This is not Of god, this is not what we do.

So and then explain the problems with driscoll. People still said it and it goes back to what huff said is. There is. I think there's a right analysis of what's going on in culture, which is this if uh.

Feminism effeminacy that has been pushed into the society. Saying that anything that bears any resemblance to the stereotypical masculine role is considered toxic masculinity. This utter attack on men and the role that god has given them in in culture in the home in the church in the workplace.

There's been such an assault upon it.

And.

Sadly many institutions even including the church have been infected by it.

That.

There is a instead of going. Okay, let's take scripture and draw it back to where it needs to be in the center Of the line. No, let's hard right this thing. We'll go as far right as we can and we go right into another ditch.

And.

What happens is you you now embrace anything? That's why you have I. Sadly i've seen people who spoke. I want to say I don't want to say respectfully but.

Spoke.

But uh, well or spoke fairly of people like andrew tate who has nothing but disdain for christianity. Bro, if you and if you mention that. Well, but he's teaching men to be to get to get fit and it's like.

The man is an absolute dog. He can't control himself. He's a dog in heat.

But I think it was sam say Samuel say who responded to andrew. Oh, that was great. Go raise your kids. Aren't they far as your kids? Yeah.

But um. But he it is this hard right pull. And and it says okay if you think toxic masculinity bad. They're not. We're not just going to fight over what that means. We're going to actually just embrace all of it.

The toxic the genuinely toxic parts as well. And so now that's when you get well, we need people with a spine. We need people who have yep male genitalia to say say these things. I'm not going to say the word.

Um.

It.

It's what I said, but that's what they said and I know instead of.

Recognizing there's a biblical masculinity that we need to embrace and we need to be putting out there. No, we're going to hard right this as far as we can. And then that's what's we're going to grab anything that says that and anything that doesn't go that way.

We're going to slander. We're going to mock. We're going to call it a feminine. We're going to call it gay. We're going to call it a feminist and all these things and so. There is a hunger for genuine masculinity.

There is a hunger to refute this.

God-forsaken ideology. There's a void. There is a void of genuine biblical Masculinity. Absolutely. There's a massive void. Part of that is the attack of the owen strands book the war on men. Excellent.

Excellent resource. Yeah, like like there's a there's a definitely a void 110 however, we need to make sure that that when we are when we as believers in the lord jesus christ and we are um, uh looking for those.

Um.

Brothers to whom we may emulate, you know paul said imitate me but he didn't just say imitate me said imitate me as I imitate christ when we. When we as brothers and or sisters are looking for For those men in our lives to be able to look at them and say I want to emulate that because they are emulating christ.

We need to make sure that we are looking for on the hunt for and examining according to the scriptures those men in our lives to whom we want to emulate and Imitate because they are imitating christ. We want to learn from their examples right and and so.

The problem with a guy like mark driscoll is. Now we're what drew were. Five years, uh, no, no, no way more than that. Was that 2014 10 years away from. Uh what happened at mars hill church in seattle?

And so there there are a lot of people. Number one who weren't believers. Number two, uh, maybe who? I mean think about that not the world. That was that was 10 years ago and so mark has done a phenomenal job at burying that in his life and so.

Yep, like unless you know or unless you know someone who was involved with that I think about our brother josh loveless, right and I think about everything he went through um there because of driscoll but unless people know that they hear they see a man standing up on a platform with a um with a bible in hand and saying the hard things and here's the thing about this is sometimes.

Sometimes and and I heard I saw saul hall say this a couple times. He says things that are correct and that's good praise the lord for that and and I find myself I find myself to thank it like like being like paul and philippians.

Right and and in those moments where the truth is proclaimed according to the scriptures I'm thankful that the truth is proclaimed, but i'm still going to point out as paul did. That there are those who are proclaiming the gospel proclaiming the truth for means of sorted gain for means of personal gain.

Versus the glory of the they are they're doing it for their own glory and not the glory of god according to the word of god and so. With with a guy like mark driscoll and I see some comments. They're saying what did he do again?

We'll get into that i'm sure. We've got two hours. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, we're just we're just kind of opening thoughts here so. But we just you know going back to what I said originally like we have to be careful that we are not filling that void uh with unqualified men now, that's not I i'm sure we'll get into this too.

I I don't and I agree with justin peters here. I don't hate mark driscoll, right? At all I don't. I'm thankful for the interactions that i've had with him online. He hasn't blocked me yet.

Um.

Oh, he blocked me.

Yeah.

Um, you know, we've had some interactions around the gifts of the spirit. Continuationism versus cessationism. And and so i'm i'm, you know, his his his interactions have been immature. And that of a teenager.

Um to be 100 honest with you. And he would never engage with the truth that was being put before him. But that's driscoll.

So.

But yeah, so so as men as men and women as brothers and sisters we we seek to imitate those who imitate christ and we seek to imitate those who according to the scriptures are Desiring to live a life.

That is above approach desiring to live a life that is submitted to the authority. Complete authority to to the word of god because they love god.

Not not those who are looking to build their own platform. Yeah, so you you guys were talking about and touching on biblical manhood. And there's a difference between what we see portrayed as manhood on the internet and on the social media today.

And biblical manhood and one of the things that especially i've been trying to promote probably the last year. Is a return of men to being historical gentlemen. Right because there's there's a type of character that comes along with being a gentleman.

When you look at andrew tate. You don't see a gentleman. You see a crass vile Individual where if evolution were true then sure that would be. Displayed as manhood right the strongest survive take what you want treat people.

However, you want that's an evolutionary worldview, but we don't live that way because one evolution is false two we serve. Uh, we serve a god. And that god that we serve demands that we live and act a certain way as men.

Right. Amen. And so that that doesn't just so that that goes with how we treat others that goes with how we view and worship. That especially with how we treat women how we treat our wives how we raise our kids.

But also how we carry ourselves. How we how we uh, how we dress how we talk how we act. Right, all of those things play a part. And chris, uh huff you and I have talked for years years. About the type of language that pastors use from the pulpit.

Right mark driscoll's and dollar general mark driscoll's alike. There is no room for that type of language whether it be cursing or not cursing. But saying just crass and vile things that have no business.

Uh.

Invoking the imagination. Uh to certain images that that stuff has no place right. So Before we get into this. I want to read. I want to kind of set the stage with some scripture. Because we are talking about mark driscoll.

He is someone who claims to be a pastor. Okay, but we have to understand before we even get into this. That the lord has given us explicit qualifications. For the man who is to be the pastor who is to be an elder and an overseer.

And if you've never heard these qualifications and you'd be surprised how many people I have run into. Who never knew that these verses existed? And yet they serve in a church and so. So so i'm going to read over these and we're just going to we're just going to look at them one by one a little bit.

But paul says or yeah paul says in first timothy chapter three. Let's begin in verse one. It is a trustworthy statement. If any man aspires to the office of overseer. It is a fine work. He desires to do an overseer then.

Must be above reproach chris. You were mentioning that the husband of one wife temperate prudent. Respectable hospitable. Able to teach not addicted to wine or pugnacious but gentle.

Feastable.

Free from the love of money. He must be one who manages his household. Well keeping his children under control with all dignity. But if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of god?

Right, I mean.

Um.

There's a lot of character trades that are listed out in there. And when we go through those character traits one by one We can see that mark driscoll Does not meet them now. He may meet the one that says able to teach.

Right, there's some things I would challenge even that and we would challenge even that now we would say able to teach in terms Of he's a good communicator. He's an orator. Right, he has a he has an ability to deliver things well so that it's In most cases understandable when he's not contradicting himself.

But he does not meet these character traits that are necessary for an elder.

Yes, correct. And let's let's just I mean Let's just we'll just we'll just take this just just real quick.

Um.

Above approach. I want to come back to that one because that's very involved. Um, but just very very quickly um, and and the husband of one wife, okay, um. One woman man. We've talked about that. We've talked about that a matter of theology.

We've talked about that on apologetics live. So but the first few that I just I just want to stop and look at temperate sensible respectable hospitable. Uh able to teach gentle or considerate. Peaceable free from the love of money.

So let's start with that with that the end of verse three. Free from the love of money. Uh, mark driscoll was caught uh red-handed using church funds to purchase uh his own books. So that he made the new york times bestseller list.

He was caught doing that. Um, why. Money power. Uh control that's that's that. That's what he wanted. Peaceable. Uh multiple witnesses not just one. Uh, and and and if you. The rise and fall of mars hill the podcast was uh.

As much as I disagree with the theology and the ministry philosophy and the.

Um.

Overtly egalitarian. Um.

Um.

Nature of of the people who put on that podcast they did find Uh and interviewed multiple people who clearly showed that mark driscoll's not peaceable. Uh, if you if you want to see that for yourself just Go on go on twitter and engage him on the topic of cessationism versus continuationism.

Uh, he compares those who are cessationists to uh to um to to to unbelievers. Is uh is is what he said he said said some very very disparaging things, but he's not peaceable. He's not gentle. He's not considerate.

Um multiple witnesses throughout the years have have have confirmed that As far as the wine pugnaciousness, I can't I can't speak to that.

Um.

You know able to teach. Okay. Yeah, he presses. He possesses the ability uh to drew to your point to be an auditor and to be able to Articulate the things that that whatever the topic is not just scripture, whatever the topic is sure.

Um.

But but he Constantly contradicts himself. He's aligned himself with false teachers. He's aligned himself with charlatans with wolves.

Um.

So I would say that's a no hospitable respect. I mean we could just keep going now. Let me let me stop here and also say That when it comes to these qualifications that um, uh The especially for I mean for men this should be the.

These are the qualifications for an elder. These are the qualifications for a pastor. However, these character traits Is what every single man born of the spirit of god every single man that the lord has graciously Through no work of our own chosen to apply the efficacious Complete and ongoing work of the lord.

Jesus christ for the forgiveness of sins. This is the goal. When we say be a man of god when we say possess biblical masculinity. This is the goal. These character traits is what you should be aiming for whether you are an elder or not.

Um.

All of us should do that now none of us. None of us will fulfill All of these all of the time. And that is where we are beyond grateful For the grace upon grace and patience and long suffering of the lord.

Jesus christ with each and every one of us. However. When it comes to the qualifications of what it takes to be god's man in god's house You have to meet these it's non-negotiable. So I would say this Trinity church, I think is the name of mark driscoll's church.

That is no more of a church because they they don't have a pastor than somebody who has a woman pastor.

Yeah.

And because he doesn't need those qualifications.

Yeah, no, absolutely and I just want to throw something in here because that this discussion came up a number of times when people like myself justin peters, you know, and others were pointing out the the disqualifications of uh mark driscoll.

Number one, he's disqualified himself. It wasn't like somebody came along grabbed him by his ear and said you're disqualified. He disqualified himself by his actions. Yeah, and uh, you know justin peters If you watch his second video has the link to the letter where some 40 elders said the man is not it or ministry.

These are the men. I was gonna bring that up. Yeah 40 elders. Yeah. Yeah, he he's utterly disqualified himself now. To that end the same the same question when it came up. Well, you don't you guys believe in forgiveness?

Don't you believe in reconciliation and I say it with that tone because that's literally how it was being conveyed and here's the thing when you get to the issue of If you have a an elder who's disqualified himself because.

Of.

Financial mishandling. Let's say in the church.

And.

The the elder board has come together. They've looked at they pulled him out and they're counseled him and they're working towards something and now they've seen the fruit of repentance and He can be trusted in the pulpit, but maybe we make wiser decisions on who handles the finances.

That's one thing when you have a man Who has repeatedly? Unrepentantly besmirched the the name of christ By bringing a reproach upon himself upon his church And upon the name of christ and has fled church discipline.

And has never you know openly said you're right I did this this and this and this is where I now has never done that and has at his new church Thrown his previous elders under the bus and blamed them by saying Oh, they were going to pull this nuclear option and accuse me of sexual infidelity in the marriage.

This is a man who is Permanently disqualified because he is not above reproach. Anybody who still knows who he is knows these things and the record is still there. It's been only 10 years Since these things happened we're not talking that he was 20 years old and he made some really dumb mistakes as an Coming out of seminary school and now he's you know, 50 years old and he's been found, you know, uh Much more mature and growing and now he's being brought on staff.

This is a man who 10 years ago Lied about what he was putting in his books. Presented as as uh, um phil Johnson put it pornographic divinations claimed that god gave him x-rated visions of people's sins.

Who manipulated his book sales? Was abusive to staff and had no problem saying from a pulpit. Hey mars hill has a great big, uh, exit sign to kick people out. Because they're not going to drive the bus they can get they can get on the bus.

They can ride the bus so they can get run over by the bus, but they're not going to be in charge.

Chris that sounds awfully familiar, doesn't it? You know if you're not with us, you know, then just leave and we don't want you here.

And that's exactly the ministry style he had and yet people not just him because of that void that. That chris was talking about a little while ago. They are so willing to overlook.

Glaring.

Reproach. So they can get somebody who says the tough things that says things like a man should say. And ignoring. Many godly pastors who exist in the pulpit today. Well known even and much and many not well known.

Who are saying these things but saying them in a godly fashion, but that's not enough. We've got to have a mark driscoll. No, we don't.

You bring up a really good point where you're talking about. We gotta have men who would say things. This way right. Well, no we don't. Because and this goes back so so when this incident this latest incident with driscoll happened I actually sent the video to justin peters.

And justin and I had a little bit of back and forth about it. The first one was how ironic that it is mark driscoll supposedly calling this thing out.

But when you're talking about he didn't call any yeah.

But when you're talking about we need men to say the hard things, okay. Why is no one? Taking a look at men like dr. John mcarthur. Who says the hard things? But he does it in a way that is tactful that is respectable.

That is temperate, but yet.

Firm.

Authoritative because he uses the scriptures to make his point. Right being a man is not about saying hard things in a crass way. Or just trying to have that gotcha moment where you make someone feel this big.

Being a man and saying thing the heart things the hard way is is Bringing the truths of god to bear upon the soul. And elevating christ and saying you must repent of this if this is how you are living.

Yeah, um. Going back to what you were saying is it's uh when we um. When we elevate men, uh, like driscoll like and andrew tate.

Um.

By the way, I see what you guys the comment you guys were laughing at. I'm, sorry.

I saw I fell out of my chair. Thanks a lot.

I got I got to put it up. Aaron stronger says, uh, we need men to say the hard things like.

Worcestershire sauce. Well, you got amen brother. Yeah Melissa owens was you know over here singing my praises apparently which about made me fall out of my chair. So.

Well, and so so, you know, we don't need we don't need men like that. And and what happens is when men like that are elevated. When men like that are given the clicks given the likes given the views which is exactly what mark driscoll wants.

It's exactly why this publicity stunt took place in the first place. Um, what that does. Is that it that empowers? Those immature unqualified Not seeking after holy don't give a rip about sanctification when it especially when it comes to the way they say things in the way.

They supposedly care for those that they've been You know called to care for and shepherd. It gives them license To fly off the handle. It gives them license to stand up on a stage priest true song of solomon.

Talk about how they got all hot and bothered prepared for it. It gives them license to stand up there.

Um.

To not look people in the eyes when they preach but to pick up points on the walls. Because that's what driscoll does. He doesn't actually look at people. He looks at that corner and in that corner and the back of that wall.

He doesn't actually look at people, right?

That it's interesting about that because when you're first learning how to public speak. That's what they tell you to do. Right, and so by the time. But when you become a pastor you should be able to look at your congregation.

100 be able to speak to them. How can you preach as a dead man to dying men?

How can you preach The whole man to the whole man and not look people in the eyes. I think that's cowardice and I think that speaks volumes if you don't do that. If you say you can't then sit down. Yeah, then you're not called.

And I think what this speaks to is is a person's reliance on themselves um who who promote themselves. As opposed to. Amen, omc ministries give us men that know the truth. Steven. J. Lawson. Amen. Yeah.

Chris has a funny story about.

About getting lawson to write this. Okay, side note. Side note. Story time with uncle. With uncle chris. Um, so.

Uh.

Drew and I 2019 were at the shepherd's conference. And uh, I have a bible with me, uh that I just gotten and it was. It was a nice bible and um. We went to hear steve lawson talk about jonathan edwards and the preciousness of time.

And it was life-changing for me. I know for drew as well. Um that just to hear that in person. I'd heard some of that stuff previous but.

Um.

Ooh, that's a good comment to engage with. Uh, anyway, so we're talking to him and stuff and he's signing books and and he'll he'll sign the cover of bibles or something like that if you want him to. And so I asked him to.

Uh to if he wouldn't mind because that was going to be the bible that I was going to use. Um as a reminder to be a man of the truth. And I said would you mind just writing? You know in quotations give us some men who know the truth.

He's like absolutely. So he starts writing it and then somebody comes up to him and distracts him. So all he wrote was give us some men and then autographed.

That's it. That's it. That's all it is. That's great.

I really hope one day that story gets back to lawson.

Himself like you. Still you have a you have a signature to finish there.

Yeah, no, what's funny though is uh last year. So we're recording this if you're listening to this later we're recording this in 2024, but 2023 shepherd's conference, um. After his he opened the shepherd's conference because john was john was out sick and or yeah, he was injured.