Righteousness DOES NOT Exalt a Nation in New Covenant - Owen 4

All right, here we go. Here we go. Hope you had a good weekend. Good Lord's Day. Good everything. Some of you guys really hate the Owenstron content and for that I'm sorry because we're doing our Owenstron part four today.

But I do have two videos in the hopper that are already recorded and pretty much done. I'm not quite happy with them. So we'll see. I might I might release them later today. We might do some editing and maybe take some things out add some things things like that.

So if you hate the Owenstron content, just sit tight. Something else is coming if you like the Owenstron content. Congratulations. Here we go. We're gonna do part four. I don't remember exactly where we were, but I'm sure it will be easy enough to follow the context.

Let's go.

Here.

The Great Commission and the Gospel Versus Civic Improvement

But but Bob being a better neighbor in his community. It'll lead to gospel opportunities. But Bob being a better a member of the home homeowners co-op is not the gospel itself. It's not the Great Commission.

Okay, let me let me try to let me try to bridge.

Owen is reminding us that being part of the homeowners co-op is not the gospel.

It's two things because I know we're we're still needing to get to the the baptizing Nations, but just to bridge two things that came up right there. So so number one I appreciate the clarification with like not a prohibition not saying that Christians shouldn't be involved in politics we're still Having a little bit of just saying things a little different looking at things a little different.

But I'm hearing what you're saying. So this is my question. My question is toward toward nations repenting because I think that that that's a huge part of this this puzzle. You look to and I know this is obviously an Old Testament example.

But one of the compelling the you know Kind of sagas of a nation repenting or you know a nation broadly termed is Nineveh, right? So you've got You know God's prophet Jonah he's called to Nineveh and you have a people, you know, like like you pointed out.

This isn't a neat and tidy arrangement, but yet at the same time you can look and say, okay, there's this people. They're called Nineveh. It's it's you know over it's the capital of the Empire as such.

And God says that I'm going to judge them for their sins and we could walk through all those sins. But many of those sins being institutionalized. Sin, right like they're they're they're persecuting people.

They're Denying the God of the universe and worshiping idols. They're doing things that are, you know, very broadly recognized and God says I'm gonna judge them and you're gonna proclaim to them corporate judgment.

Jonah goes instead none of a repents and I appreciate the individualism of that repentance, right? It says from the top down even mentions the cattle, you know in that little phrase that everybody always trips over.

But at the same time you have a people who God says I will judge you and then you have that people repent and God. You know being careful with my language here God relents, you know in the language of Scripture not in that he changes his mind.

But he does not bring judgment because of his good and perfect plan. My question is Owen with all that kind of like rambling set up. But if nations can be judged because you brought up Psalm 2 you're pointing to kind of an eschatological fulfillment.

Again, we're probably seeing that Psalm a little differently, but I hear I hear what you're saying Nations right now my question. This is kind of like my rambling question. Can a nation right now be judged for its sin?

And if so can those nations repent as such and I bring that up because I know there's been a lot of discussion with first Peter to and The church being a Christian nation and a holy people. Yes, and amen.

But most Christians I suspect would have little problem with me saying Our nation for example because usually we're a little bit better about thinking about our own nation. Our nation will face God's judgment if dot dot dot and usually we're looking to the sins of our culture and the sins of our nation.

It seems that if that nation can be judged that nation can in some form or fashion repent. How would you walk through that? That's a good question.

You know what?

I mean it was a little rambling because I think he's trying to offer as much nuance as he can so that Owen will actually Answer the question and he won't feel Upset about it or attacked so good on you.

Dr. Howard. For the way you asked it basically it boils down to this. Look, you're saying judge nations can't be disciples. They can't repent. But we see in Scripture that they can be judged, right? And so we understand that there's not this nation out here this that's disconnected from the people called Sweden and Sweden is gonna be sitting at the judgment on its own, you know separate from the people because it's just this weird entity here That can't really just be discipled that can't really be baptized.

That can't really be you but but it can somehow be judged. Is that what you're saying? Like?

Isn't it true?

Dr Scrawn that we're talking about things in a slightly different way that we can understand that when we say the nation's baptized We're actually talking about. You know the people in the nation and and and and the overall, you know way the nation operates.

You know, it's it's it's the nation's being discipled in the sense that not that Sweden sitting in the classroom. But that the people of Sweden have been discipled and that they're organizing their nation in a certain kind of way.

Isn't that true? Dr. Strawn and let's see what he says.

Old Covenant National Judgment and the New Covenant Difference

That's a very good question and I appreciate the reference for Jonah. I do think the Old Covenant is different because you have direct dealing with nations. I mean you have the the nation of Israel that That and that is where God's work is is focused in and directed from right.

And you have surrounding nations and Israel is literally called to kill Warriors from other nations in order to survive in order to take the promised land, right? So so the book of Joshua factors in so there's a strongly national element to the Old Testament.

I don't want to in any way Downplay that or or be quiet about that or act like I'm Embarrassed by that or that's a problem for my vision because frankly, I hope it's not. I don't think it is. God deals in in nations in the Old Testament's in the clearest of ways.

This is part of what is so important though about Some of what you wrote about in in your your dissertation and your book. There's punctuated fulfillment in Jesus and everything this is a this is gonna.

It's a lot to take on right now, and I won't be able to simply but very but To go quick boldly and where angels fear to tread in Christ. All of that changes in the New Covenant things are different. God is not dealing with an ethnic people As as his one nation.

That's a common lie That sadly is out there today and in Christian national circles to some degree not all CNN folks believe that.

To throw in the the you know, they're all racist not all of them, but there's a lot of them. Had to throw that in there. What Owen is saying here is saying that you know, God doesn't deal with nations anymore.

It's different now in the New Covenant. And so it would be inappropriate To say that the United States is going to be judged for their rejection of Christ. For the fact that that that that we exalt evil and wickedness and we we you know.

Even by law by our law exalts evil and wickedness as if it was good. God won't come in judgment against that nation. That's not how it works anymore in the Old Covenant it used to work that way because we had the nation of Israel that was in covenant with God and The nation of Nineveh.

Which he dealt with? But they weren't in covenant with God somehow it's different though now because They're not in covenant with God and the system's totally different. It's a totally different system is what he's saying.

Honestly Owen Owen's Owen's beliefs here are a bit of a mess and so He's trying to be consistent. He's trying to you know, I give him credit for that. But but I don't think a system which says, you know, you know God actually is not that concerned with the nation's anymore.

You know, he's only concerned with individuals. So he's not gonna come and judge the nation's anymore because that was the old system. We're now we're under the new Covenant I just don't think that that's a system that's going to resonate with most people most people understand that.

Absolutely. God judges nations to this day and that our nation is in trouble if that's the case and we don't we understand that. In fact, I think he's currently judging our nation with a lot of the things that are happening currently.

So, you know, it's it's interesting and he's trying to be consistent here. I don't think it resonates with most people. I don't think it makes sense. According to the scriptures as well because it's not like we see.

You know in the New Covenant God saying, you know now I don't care about the nation's now I don't judge the nation's now. I don't do any of these things now. I'm Concerned with the church and individuals.

Only and all that stuff that I used to do. I don't do it anymore. We don't get that in the New Testament at all.

And so.

You would think that if he's gonna make a very kind of fundamental change with how he deals With people because the thing is again nations are people groups. They're they're they're way people organize, you know what I mean?

That's something that was instituted by him himself. You would think that he's gonna make a colossal change like that that he'd be very clear about it.

We don't get that in the New Testament. Let's let Owen continue. It's a real problem. It's a real danger as is anti-semitism. God isn't dealing though with one ethnic people as his people and then yes people come into that.

Gentiles come into that or something like that. As in the Old Testament the church is the holy nation. That's not a throwaway word. That's an incredibly significant word. We're not we're not waiting for a Christian nation to be built.

We are a Christian nation, but the Christian nation is not a throw away word. The Christian nation has changed it it's it's gone. It's been it's been Christified. It's been gospel eyes. That doesn't mean we embrace political Quietism we go.

We're the Christian nation with a holy nation. Yay. Let's just huddle and wait until Jesus returns. That's not my view, but it is the case on the other hand that that Peter doesn't call the church To take back Rome.

He says honor the Emperor Peter and the Apostles don't do any of the theonomistic stuff that were said today. We need to be doing and that is the work of the church today. I mean Stephen Wolfe and others Andrew Torba.

You're being careful even in disagreeing with me, but you're being very careful and technical. There is a ton of cases out there today. There are numerous voices to be more precise who say absolutely Absolutely, we're we're making Christians we're making nations Christian and I'm here to say I don't.

I don't see Peter saying anything approaching that to his audience. He's saying suffer. Well.

The author of Hebrews is saying Peter, you know advocating for better abortion laws in in Rome or or advocating for For sex trafficking laws in Rome or or I don't see Peter that being against slavery in Rome either.

I don't see any of those things and. So I don't think Owen that. This is this is the work of the modern church. It doesn't make any sense. Like it's it's it's he'll he deploys this kind of a tactic Against in Andrew Torba or a Stephen Wolfe, but he does not apply it to his own Viewpoints he doesn't apply to his own perspective.

And so even though Peter didn't believe in free speech or believe in democracy it's okay for Owen to promote that kind of stuff because. Well, because that's just the consensus. That's the post-war consensus people just automatically assume is the holy perspective and so the one of the greatest things about Christian nationalism is is getting people to review and to and to and to kind of run Diagnostics on the things that they were taught in school in elementary school was were the things that were unassailable.

The things that you should not question the things that were just so obvious. They did not even need to be debated. You know, I don't see I don't see Peter advocating for women's suffrage. Yeah, I don't see that kind of stuff, but you assume it as the automatic Christian position.

Christian nationalism so much of it is going back. It's a retrieval and saying, you know, we were taught a whole lot of stuff in school. And I'm not so sure all of it was right. I'm not so sure all of it was good and beneficial.

So let's go back and see what their reformers used to think. Let's go back and see could we apply this today? Is there actually more truth before I got indoctrinated in elementary school than I was told that there was?

That's one of the best parts about Christian nationalism. It's and it's not like everyone comes into Christian nationalism and leaves and agrees on everything. But sort of that that that that willingness to sort of examine all of the indoctrination that we all went through in elementary school and beyond is a very very good thing and Owen is Incapable of even conceiving of any other way and that is why he says these Arguments that if they work on us, which they don't then they definitely work on him, too.

But he just doesn't see it. He just doesn't see it. He is incapable of escaping his indoctrination his political indoctrination in school. He is not willing to face it.

And.

That's part of why he kind of inserts these little insults here and there because this is what he was taught to do in school. Yeah, you know anti-semitism is a real problem racism is a real problem. Oh, yeah.

Like all that stuff that this is how he was taught to deal with this. And so it's just very interesting, you know, I mean like I'm being I'm being you know. You know just a little bit silly here to say I didn't see Paul teaching, you know free speech, you know stuff like that.

But it's again if it works on us it works on you. Owen doesn't work on us. But you know I'm not the one making those arguments.

The Cross, the Resurrection, and the Ascension as the Basis for Christian Nationhood

We have no lasting city here Josh. I fear that Folks are twisting the Great Commission or being led into it Unsuspectingly and thinking that we're building a city here that lasts we're building Christian nations.

God is building the Christian nation the Christian nation the one true one and first. Peter 2 9 is built by the gospel and it's Composed of strangely that all this is deeply ironic just like the cross.

It's kind of a theme. Super ironic. The cross looks like a defeat. The cross is a victory, right? The exiles scattered don't look like a nation.

But they're the would have been a defeat if there was no resurrection. And that's another thing a lot of these guys a lot of these guys. They they have a theology. That is all crucifixion and no Resurrection.

He really did come back from the dead and then he really did a sin, you know you need the ascension to. He sits he stands that they sit to the right hand of the father and. And he's putting all of his enemies under his feet and he does that the way he does that and he does that.

Through his people.

You know what I mean? So it's like like like again. You can't be all crew. The cross would have been a defeat if there was no resurrection or no ascension. But it wasn't a defeat because three days later.

He came back from the dead and Then he ascended to the right hand of the father. And then we can understand Psalm 110 and we can understand all these things and and we can apply them in a in a way. That's not a.

A.

Loss it's a victory. It's a victory and it's in its marching orders and we can move forward in every area of our lives including the political and so it's again. Owen would never deny the ascension or the resurrection.

I'm not saying he denies it but his theology of All of this stuff the way he interacts with culture it Pretend like it forgets about it almost it forgets about it. It's like yeah, it's ironic but only because the ascension is real and that ascension is Meaningful and he's the king of kings and he's the Lord of Lords and all that mean stuff here and now.

It's not just for heaven one day. It's now. It's very interesting very interesting stuff. Why don't watch out for these guys that are all crucifixion and no Resurrection and ascension you need that part too.

One true nation.

Okay, so. So like just pushing back in on that point with the the nation's being judged I feel for dr.

Howard here because there's whenever Owen speaks There's like five ten can of worms that he opens up that are just like what are you talking about man? And like Josh has to figure out which one to pursue because he can't pursue them all.

Would you say that there is a you know allowing for. The newness of what is has come in Christ's first coming. Is there a sense in which nations right now? However, you frame that and categorize nations are judged or can they repent.

And I'm thinking oh and just toward like.

It's right there the fact that he really doesn't answer the question directly. He kind of just says well the system's different now and and things like that and we got a new Christian nation.

You know.

It's like the nation of Israel and there was a lot of holes in that and there was a lot of things he didn't cover. And it was very political answer in the sense that he didn't really answer the question.

So dr. Howard's gonna you know insist.

That's good for you. Inclusion of Romans. Romans 16. Paul's talking about you know, the gospel being proclaimed to the nation's again. That's part of that. Like I.

I'm glad that dr. Howard's talking having this conversation this little debate because this is the part that I struggle with. I struggle with number one when to get people to stop talking and I struggle with Not getting distracted and figuring out what's the best thing to pursue?

That's the hard part man because there's always like a hundred things you could say and you want to figure out which is the best Thing to pursue what makes the most sense? So good good on you. Dr. Howard.

At the center and yet he says it's for the obedience of faith and seems to be the exact same, you know reference to the nation's. Without broaching into that though, like do you see nations right now?

Not only being under God's wrath or judgment, but also having the propensity to repent. I'm guessing no on the second, but I'm trying to get clarity on that of that issue.

Yeah.

I'm looking up what you said. I think the obedience of faith is is what the gospel brings, but I think it's in disciples.

Yeah, I was looking at hang on. It's Romans 16 25 through 26 Talking about the gospel and preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages but has now been disclosed through the prophetic writings been Made known to all the nations.

So gospel proclaimed made known to all the nations according to the command of the Eternal God to bring about the obedience of faith. Yes, it seems like that at least lends towards some obedience of faith proclaimed to the nation's again.

However, we sussed that out, but really I'm trying to keep more in on on sorry. You can you can totally speak to that. I'm not trying to throw anything at you I'm just trying to think toward. Can a nation be judged.

Can a nation repent of that judgment or that sin that leads to judgment.

I.

Think I think there is a sense of that in the Old Testament and. And I and I said that and then didn't didn't. I'm glad you circled back because I didn't really speak clearly to the New Testament. So, sorry about that.

I didn't. I got on a jag there. I don't really see that that grid obtaining in the New Testament. No, I think it's different. I think everything gets everything gets gospel eyes and changes and so God is not dealing with his people in terms of nations.

I think when we are talking about a text like that, they got it's been proclaimed to all nations. That's not meaning.

God's people. Right. Nineveh was not Israel. Okay, so in the Old Testament it really wasn't about whether they were God's people or not. He was dealing with Nineveh as a nation and Holding them to a standard even though he did not reveal his standard to them.

He never took Nineveh up to the mountain and gave him the Ten Commandments. He didn't do that. Yet he still held them to that standard. What difference does it make that that he doesn't have the his he's not dealing with his people in a nation.

That's not what Josh is asking. He's asking. Does God deal with nations? Does he care about nations anymore? Does he does he have? Interactions and dealings with nations as he judged one nation and does he bless another?

There's nothing in the New Testament that would make you think otherwise.

But no one Owen doesn't think so for some reason. Let's keep hearing about Canada, you know needs to be under church discipline Whereas Russia Russia just got saved and Russia's walking out the obedience of faith.

I have not the faintest clue how that would be measured how.

Let me know what you think of the comments. Does no Owen know he's being obtuse here or is he just this obtuse? I have no. It's not like Canada would be under church discipline and and and and and like Russia just got saved and like Is he this obtuse?

And he doesn't understand What we're talking about here. Or does he know what he's doing? And this is just his like little way of being funny or you know making a silly point or what do you think? Because I don't know.

I Really don't know. I think he just might not get it. Dr. Howard. I mean Dr. Howard didn't ask if if God deals with Canada in the sense that the church should church discipline, Canada. I think he's talking about blessings and curses blessings for obedience.

Curses for disobedience and we've got a long list and I don't know if it's an exhaustive list. We've got a long list of the kinds of things that God does to nations that are obedient versus disobedient.

And it's you know, there's economic problems. There's there's there's there's there's climate problems. There's wars. There's there's things like that and it's a whole list. On earth is that it's it's hard.

What on earth is that Russia just got saved. What does that even mean? Is he this obtuse? Let me know what you think. Is he this obtuse or and he doesn't get it or is he doing this on purpose? To make some kind of a joke or a silly point.

What do you think?

Measured.

Let me clarify that it's our didn't mean to interrupt you there Owen but just just like clarify because I would agree with you look right like so if you're thinking like the spheres of authority. Because I don't want to muddle my question.

Yeah, so church here state here, right? So let's just say you've got a state act or let's just take our country and for the sake of YouTube I won't name it, but let's just take our country and say okay.

Our country is messing up and they're under judgment. So okay would be under church discipline because that would be to confuse spheres of authority again.

I think we would share that cup here in causing calamity for our country and that could be. You know, we don't have peace. We have economic problems. We have climate problems. We have droughts. We have famines.

We have things like that. That's what he's talking about. He's not talking about our. Well, you know, the church comes in and says to America who's up here, you know some kind of entity. You can't take communion.

Yeah, god bless you Josh because you're walking oh and through this. In a way that is very kind and very patient and very nice and I think perfectly tuned for Owen. Well done.

Perspective on it. So church over here a nation can't be put under church discipline. But could we say for example America. I see that I went and said it on YouTube. Okay, like let's just say could you say America has sent to the extent in whatever fashion that God's judging America.

Are you saying? No, the nation's aren't really in that sort of paradigm.

We'll see the reason I say church discipline of nations is because if you're baptizing nations Then you're you're in that grid. This is part of the awkwardness of the CN paradigm. You're applying Great Commission categories that are intended for individuals and that are applied exclusively to individuals.

And I mean exclusively in the book of Acts. There's no country that gets that gets baptized. We do have Jonah and the Old Covenant, but I'm talking new covenant. I mean great Commission punctuated fulfillment in Jesus.

You you don't you don't have nations baptized. And so I don't think just as nations are not baptized nations are not put under church discipline. So no, I don't think God is is approaching humanity Post Christ or with the coming of Christ in terms of nations I'm I've always found it even before this whole discussion sparked, you know last two years or whatever.

I have always been extremely uncomfortable with applying Righteousness exalts a nation and applying it directly to the country. I'm in for example I'm not saying that's not true, but that's an Old Covenant teaching and and God does not seem.

Righteousness Exalts a Nation in the Old Covenant, Not the New

So righteousness no longer exalts a nation. We're in the New Covenant paradigm now. Righteousness. This is Owen Strawn's position and you know, you could see I'm a little frustrated because Maybe he's just this obtuse.

I Don't know what's worse is he just doesn't get it or is he making a joke? I think he just doesn't get it. Owen Strawn believes that righteousness no longer Exalts a nation that was back in the day now.

We're in the New Covenant. Righteousness doesn't exalt nations any longer. What do you even say to that?

Him to dwell. God does not seem to engage. Excuse me God does not seem to engage with with nations in the New Covenant the way he did in the Old Covenant. I do absolutely think that. When I look out at my my own country or countries across the world, there's all sorts of evil.

There's all sorts of terrible things. It doesn't matter though, because we're really only concerned with individuals now. So God's not going to come with calamity for nations that are doing all kinds of evil.

God's not going to deal with him in that way because that was the Old Covenant. What do you think righteousness exalts a nation these days? I mean, what?

That's heresy.

You didn't say it was heresy, but that's false teaching. Righteousness exalts a nation. Get real.

We very much want to be salt and light. So we're not talking. This is not political. Quiet as I'm talking just to say that for the 10th time not that you're accusing me of that. But anyone out there who's confused?

But I don't think that. I Don't think that. You know, we're taking Brazil out to coffee to disciple Brazil. We're making disciples from all nations, which is what the Apostles do in the book of Acts.

Okay, so and maybe and number one. I appreciate the clarification. I.

Cannot wait to see how. Response to dr. Strong. Because I Just honestly, I don't know what to say to that. I don't because this is the thing like I would want to say something helpful and And and and kind I just wouldn't know what to say.

I Just don't. Righteousness no longer exalts a nation and this is not from a political quietism perspective. I'm I'm not saying we should be quiet politically But I don't want you to think that when I engage politically that righteousness exalts a nation anymore.

I Don't want you to think that.

We're disagreeing there, but I but I appreciate where you're coming from and you clarifying your point. Maybe that's a good segue to go into like the Great Commission language itself because because really, you know.

We've been kind of tiptoeing around that and that's really where a lot of this comes down to. And I'm not a Greek scholar. So I'm sure I'm sure you could. Uh,.

The Great Commission, Baptizing Nations, and the Limits of Christian Nationalism

Because he's gonna get into some more technical stuff. I like that. This is my favorite part of the video by the way coming up. We're gonna stop there. We've been at it for 30 minutes. But again, I haven't talked to dr. Howard about this.

But I think that he just had the same reaction I had and he had it in a very professional way. He just had no idea what to say to him. He just brought up Taking Brazil the coffee church disciplining Russia or Canada.

Russia's saved now. He brought all that stuff up again like a child and Dr. Howard tried a couple times to sort of you know Tease it out a little bit more and we got the same thing bringing Brazil the coffee.

And I said, I wouldn't know what to say. And dr. Howard said that's a good segue. I gotta get dr. Howard on on the channel and talk to him a little bit. That'd be fun. That'd be fun to talk to dr. Howard because god bless him.

This is this is a great great conversation. I'm so grateful that this happened and I'm so grateful for dr. Howard's perspective here and his personality his attitude. It is shocking. It is shocking when Owen starts to explain himself on this.

What a mess. What a mess you heard it here first. According to Owen Strawn righteousness no longer exalts nations. You heard it here first. I hope you found this video helpful.

God bless.