Is It Biblically Permissible to Divorce Wife Beaters?

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01:27

Alright Tim, the question for today's episode is, is it biblically permissible to divorce a wife beater?

01:32

Yeah, there's several different positions on the topic of divorce and remarriage in general, and in order to try to answer a question like this, it may actually be helpful to try to outline the different positions that people have taken on this, and then talk about the way forward.

01:48

So, as you're thinking about the subject of divorce and remarriage, you basically have the no divorce, no remarriage view, and in that view, there's no legitimate exceptions that the

01:59

Bible is giving that would allow an individual to get divorced, or even get remarried in that way.

02:07

I think John Piper takes that view. He's an example of someone who takes that view of no divorce, no remarriage kind of view.

02:15

And then the majority view as it relates to this topic, the majority view among conservative

02:22

Christians would be what's called the two -exception clause view. And the two -exception clause view is basically getting its impulse from Matthew 19, where there's an exception that's given in the case of sexual immorality, and you may need to think about what that means, and what are the entailments of that.

02:40

But that would be one exception. And then Paul in 1 Corinthians 7 is giving another exception on the grounds of abandonment, and that's kind of a fuzzy word that we'll talk about over the course of the episode.

02:52

But two -exception clause view basically is just saying, if an unbeliever departs, let him depart.

02:57

And then in the case of sexual immorality, then there's another permissible case.

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And so that would be two -exception clause view. And in that way, it's permissible to get divorced, and then there's an assumption there that once you get a legitimate divorce, there's freedom to remarry.

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And there's wrinkles in all these views, but the first view is no divorce, no remarriage. The second view is the majority view, which is basically the two -exception clause view.

03:27

And then if you're a pagan, you can basically get divorced and remarry for any reason that you can possibly think of.

03:34

Marriage is just dating at that point, right? At that point, yeah. It's not really permanent. So any number of exceptions are given.

03:40

There's probably no situation which would be too trivial to get divorced at that point.

03:46

But then as it relates to this topic, there's many, I think many conservative -minded

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Christians who essentially are arguing for a third exception that is not to be found anywhere within the passage itself.

04:01

And so there's just kind of a knee -jerk response that many people have. I think particularly as our society is getting more and more sensitive to these kind of issues, we're pretty hypersensitive to this kind of topic in general right now, despite the fact that I think the days of the rampant wife beaters are probably far behind us at this point.

04:26

So I don't know that this problem is really that pronounced of a problem, at least in most

04:32

Western countries at this point. Most men are pretty well whipped by their wives.

04:41

I don't even know that this is like a real strong reality of a thing anymore.

04:47

I'm not saying it doesn't exist. It's just not as common as it used to be. But many people, basically they have a knee -jerk response to say that divorce is permissible in the case of sexual immorality, abandonment, and then they'll just add abuse for no reason without any textual justification.

05:04

So there's people who go that way. And then those who are less driven by the emotional arguments at that point and more driven by the passage, there's a more careful way of trying to ground it within the quote -unquote abandonment category.

05:21

But then you're asking me, what do I think about it? I'll tell you that I'm not persuaded that this problem is a problem that was wholly absent from the first century.

05:36

So part of what you have to do when you're thinking about this kind of topic is, if your starting point is the

05:42

Bible is sufficient, Bible is sufficient, Scripture is sufficient, so God's word has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness, and there's two exceptions that are mentioned.

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It takes a very high burden of proof in my mind to try to demonstrate that this problem was completely unknown in the ancient world, and you almost have to go that way.

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We did a poll on this, and there were certain people who went that way, who were basically saying, they were just baffled.

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They concluded it must be that it just wasn't a problem at the time.

06:20

Wife beating was invented in 1950 or something like that. Yeah, and to that kind of person,

06:27

I do have some beachfront property to sell you in Florida, but I promise it's not swampland.

06:37

No, I think it is obviously a problem at the time. It's obviously going to be a problem to one degree or another throughout the entirety of the history of the world.

06:46

The wife is the weaker vessel. Man is physically stronger than his wife, except for in rare situations where maybe you're married to Xena, a warrior princess or something like that.

06:57

But Cara Dune, to give a contemporary analogy. No, I don't think that this was a problem that was unknown in the ancient world, and I think if there was a reason to give this as an exception, they would have, and they didn't go that route with it.

07:18

And so I just don't, and I think if your starting point is survival sufficient, then that would lead you to think that there are other alternatives to divorce in that kind of case.

07:27

So I'm not persuaded that we should be, at the very least, we should be adding a third exception.

07:34

I don't think we should be adding a third exception at all. The best we could do is maybe ground it in the abandonment, you know, quote unquote one, but I don't think that makes a whole lot of sense either, based on the actual language of the passage itself in 1

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Corinthians 7. So I think that, I would say I just, I don't see that as a biblically permissible reason for divorce.

07:58

And let me, you know, just go ahead and say that I've never beat my wife before.

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Disclaimer. I've never personally beat my wife, and this is not trying to get myself off the hook, you know.

08:13

Sure, yeah. I will say that just for the sake of the shrill people who will scream at me at this point.

08:19

Yeah. So, okay, so your stance is basically saying, your stance is basically, look, the

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Bible gives us two exceptions, those are the exceptions we have, right?

08:32

Right. We can't just go and add a third one that's not there just because we've decided that it should be, right?

08:40

Once you start down the dark path forever, will it dominate your destiny? I mean, once you start adding more, you know, there's no rationale to say when you stop, and it just becomes a matter of you, whatever the cultural outrage is at the moment, you need to add a new one.

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And so this happens to be the cultural outrage at the moment, and I'm not interested in opening up Pandora's box here.

09:02

So basically what you're saying is you're pro -wife beating. That's the only logical conclusion

09:10

I can come to, Tim. And not only that, but God is pro -wife beating as well.

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I mean, it's amazing, like, once you start thinking in an emotional way, that those are the kind of things that come to people's mind.

09:24

Well, I'm an emotional guy. I know that you're playing the other side for them.

09:33

But no, I mean, like, you know, there's obviously, I think there's other options that you could think through at this point.

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And so people hear strange things if you say there's not an exception. So they hear that, you know, either

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A, you're pro -wife beating, B, that, you know, the woman should just stay there indefinitely and just get beat up every night.

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That that's what you're encouraging, you know, for the sake of just trying to win them over, you know, just be a punching bag every night.

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So I think maybe it's just helpful to talk about what these things mean and what they don't mean at that point.

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But a lot of people hear strange things at this point, for sure. That would be one of the strange things to hear.

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So if I'm wrong and you're not pro -wife beater, then what is the, you know, what's the explanation that gets you out of this one,

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Tim? I don't need an explanation. I mean, I'm not comfortable adding to the scripture things that aren't there.

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And so I believe the scripture is sufficient. And I believe that this was a situation that happened at the time. And if God wanted to give an exception, he could have.

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And so he didn't. But I mean, I think that there's a lot of alternatives that can be had at this point to,

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I mean, there's other options besides just divorce. So, I mean, the first thing, like if a woman is actually being, you know, legitimately beaten by her wife, beaten by her husband, if a woman is legitimately, you know, and I think you need to put that word in there legitimately, meaning,

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I mean, like you can have a contentious woman who's screaming in her husband's face for years and years and years and, you know, hovering over him and a drop of spit is coming into his eyeball from her screaming and he can push her away.

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And I mean, at that point, you're not like, whatever you're talking about, you're not talking about like abuse, you know, but there is a kind of unstable person who is going to like, we're in that kind of climate right now where anything and everything can just be viewed in this category.

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So I think you need to make certain distinctions along these lines of like what we're even saying, you know, are you, are you talking about the man who, you know, beats his wife every night with a chainsaw or something like that?

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Or are we talking about like just the kind of situation I described? I mean, but assuming it's like a legit situation that like, he really is like he really, like he really is like a classical stereotypical wife beater who is taking his temper out and physically assaulting his wife on, you know, regular basis or whatever.

12:15

Like, I think when you're talking about, you know, the classic drunk guy who comes home and beats up, uses his wife as a punching bag or, you know, regularly, just loses temper without alcohol and does the same thing.

12:27

I think like that's a category we're talking about, but I mean, I mean, that's what the police is here for.

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So, I mean, that's a crime and you can follow a police report and make a record of it and get that guy in jail, you know?

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So, I mean, there are paths that can be taken at that point, whether you're talking about letting the police know, letting your church know.

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And I think you need to do both. There's accountability at the governmental level and there's accountability at the, you know, the church level.

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So both parties need to be made aware of that kind of thing. And, you know, this kind of situation needs to be, like have a very short leash on it, so to speak.

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So, I mean, it's not the kind of thing that you just need to tolerate over and over and over and over again. So there's options along those lines of following a police report, you know, what,

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I mean, just what are we talking about? You know, what are we talking about with this? But I mean, assuming it's serious, like you need to follow a police report, let your pastors know.

13:26

And there's, I mean, there's an option of separation too. So, you know, physical separation or what do you mean?

13:34

Physical separation. Yeah. I mean, if he, if the guy can't control his temper, he's just going to take it out on you. You're afraid for the life of your kids legitimately, then

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I mean there's separation options. So 1 Corinthians 7 .15 says if an unbelieving partner separates, let it be so.

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So it says if the unbelieving part, I'm sorry, 1 Corinthians 7 .10 to the married,

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I give this charge, not I, but the Lord. The wife should not separate from her husband, but if she does, she should remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband.

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And the husband should not divorce his wife. So I think that, you know, they're obviously having a temper problem.

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Obviously getting somewhat physical is not like an unknown problem throughout the history of the world.

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You know, men and women can terrorize each other in different ways and there should be an impulse to try to keep a relationship together and to try to work through it and everything else.

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But I mean, if you're just in a situation where, you know, I promise to be different, honey, you know, and every few nights, you know, every few weeks, whatever you're talking about, this is just going on and on.

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Like there's a separation option. And I think that that separation option there is, is just to say, you know, you need to, the text itself says she, she should remain unmarried in that case and or else be reconciled to her husband.

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So I think there's an escape valve. If he's just totally not living with her in an understanding way whatsoever, you know,

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Paul, Paul is not saying, you know, force her to come back. He's saying, well, in that case that, you know, she needs to remain unmarried or else try to reconcile it.

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And so I think there's a lot of things you can do at that point that you don't have to necessarily go straight to the divorce case.

15:24

You mentioned it's something that should be kept on a short leash. So, so what does that look like?

15:30

I mean, does that mean, I know you're not saying like, Hey, you know, endure this for months and months and months.

15:35

And then finally, you know, at some arbitrary point, get the police involved, get your church elders involved.

15:43

So does that mean like the first time it happens, you get, you get the police involved, you get your elders involved.

15:51

Like what is it the first time? Is it like the fifth time, the 10th time? You know, what, what do you mean by that?

15:58

Yeah. I think there is like when, when you're talking about a subject along these lines there's just so many different situations you can find yourself in.

16:09

It's almost impossible to speak to this kind of situation with any clarity whatsoever. So, I mean, there's just, there's so many situations that we could be talking about and I'm hesitant to just give a blanket statement.

16:22

So, I mean, part of what's happening with all the MeToo movement and, you know, the advent of feminism and everything else, it's just, there's very much like any situation that could happen along these lines is painted in like the worst possible version of itself, if that makes sense.

16:43

So like, meaning like, like there's a lot of sin that typically happens in order when, like when you're going to get to a place where things are starting to turn physical and like, you know,

16:57

I've done enough counseling to know that 99 .9 % of the time it's not like there's never this like pure innocent party in any of this, if that makes sense.

17:09

So when things like when bad things happen, I mean, it's like, it's, I mean, there are situations like that that could happen, but most of the time,

17:17

I mean, when you're talking about this, you have like significant, like once it gets to that level, there's been significant sin on both sides that have been building for years and years and years to where you're, you're finally getting to a volcano point.

17:31

And so, you know, once you get to that volcano point, you're going to have any number of people will come along and say, yeah, you know, just leave, divorce the guy, divorce the bum, one strike, you're out, you know, you don't deserve this.

17:41

And, but then they didn't listen long enough to understand why this even happened. And they're not necessarily being helpful, right?

17:47

So, I mean, you can poke a bear and you can poke a bear and you can poke a bear and poke a bear. And then at some point, like the bear gets mad, like that's a very real thing that can happen.

17:56

And that does happen. So what are we talking about? And I don't, I don't necessarily know what we're talking about off the top of my head as we're talking about a subject like this.

18:03

And there's a demand that you can't ask questions, right? So you just have to kind of believe the victim, whoever that happens to be and go with it.

18:11

So, I mean, I think when you're talking, I'm talking about being on a very short lease, once it transitions to that point,

18:17

I mean, I think you're like, I mean, like if you're not talking about,

18:22

I mean, if you're not talking about like some shouting match that's happening where both people are screaming at each other and, you know, one person shoves the other person, that's it.

18:31

If that's not what you're talking about, you're talking about like a legit situation. Like I would be hesitant to call the cops in that situation because it's just kind of like, what do you think's going to happen?

18:41

You know what I'm saying? And like, no one, like, you know, I think they're, were you actually afraid of your life right there?

18:50

Was that, like any permanent harm that happened there? Like, whatever you've been saying, you know, but like in a legit situation where it starts to cross into that line.

18:58

I mean, I think like, I think we can all mention like a legit situation in that situation. I think you call the police the first time, but I don't know that necessarily like the first thing you do at that point is say,

19:11

I'm done with this. I, my life is in danger separation forever, right?

19:17

Upon the, like, I'm like never gone back. Like if that's where you're going, I just wonder, like, are you taking seriously the nature of the sin problem that you have as well?

19:27

Right. And so, and then what people hear there is they just like, they hear like, well, if I was a perfect wife, you wouldn't hit me anymore.

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And so they always paint it in like the most one sided way possible.

19:40

But I mean, I do think like marriage isn't like a big deal and we should fight to save our marriages. And I do think, you know, husbands can sin against their wife in very significant ways and wives can sin against their husbands in very significant ways.

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And there shouldn't be just a, well, like, let's just toss this thing aside.

19:59

You know, like there's so much damage that happens to relationships. Like to,

20:06

I mean, to your kid's life, you're fundamentally changing your kid's life forever. Like there are entailments to this.

20:11

And so I think, you know, trying to make some sort of good faith effort with the help of your pastors and informing the police to try to reconcile this thing is a good first step.

20:22

So, you know, I think there's a, so basically, yes, I think there's a short rope.

20:28

I mean, I, I don't, I think you need to alert the police, but I don't know that it's just, like this is the kind of thing where one strike, you're out kind of thing.

20:38

Yeah. Depending on what were you talking about? What you're talking about. Yeah. But if it were like throwing knives at the other person.

20:46

I think, yeah. If you're talking about like weapons, guns and weapons and, you know, stuff like that,

20:54

I think that you're transitioning into a different category. So, I mean, it's just hard to, it's hard to speak about this.

21:00

All I'm trying to say is there's a lot of things that can go into this category and it's hard to just give a blanket a hundred percent of the time.

21:10

This is what you do. I mean, but there's any number of people who were invested, who have no commitment whatsoever to marriage, like anything that can conceivably be put into that category of abuse, whether physical, emotional, mental, whatever, you know, they're going to say, take the

21:25

X8 valve immediately and, you know, be somewhat naive about what they're even saying at that point.

21:31

So I don't have that simple. Last question. So, well,

21:37

I guess two questions, one quick one. Should the goal always be reconciliation in these kinds of situations?

21:48

Sure. Well, I think the goal should, I mean, obviously the Bible says forgiveness, like forgiveness is important.

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If God's forgiven us a great deal, then we should forgive others. And so it just,

22:00

I mean, I think like once you've established some sort of pattern of there's a one -sided, like this is a one -sided thing, you know, that is there's no hope, you know?

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And I think getting counsel and getting advice and getting help from your pastors can help you to figure out what situation you're in.

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But once you're in that, once you realize that this is like a hard -hearted sinner who is like, there's not really like there can be situations where everyone around you is saying there's not much hope here for reconciliation in the short term at the very least.

22:40

So it's time to separate and be safe. And now you need to forgive him from the heart, you know, and hopefully, you know, like if he asks for forgiveness, you need to forgive him, but then there might not be, it may be that he's broken trust at that point and there's no longer, you know, you're going to maybe want to see a long path to repentance before you ever trust again.

23:03

And you may not live with him while you see that long path of repentance. Does that make sense? So, but I don't, you know,

23:10

I think that there are other options besides just immediately divorce, basically. Okay. And then last question, why?

23:19

So you mentioned there's kind of like some people try to put this like, you know, like physical violence kind of category and with abandonment.

23:33

And you're saying you don't, you're not convinced by that. So why not? Yeah. Well, I think what's happening there is you're, you're, so they you're taking the

23:43

English term abandonment and then you're reading the English term abandonment, not in terms of physical separation, but in terms of basically like a psychological state, right?

23:56

Does that make sense? Yeah. So you're interpreting the English word abandonment, not literally as physical separation, but as a emotional distancing, a lack of care basically.

24:12

But the problem is that like the text itself isn't even using this English word and the words that it's using are words that describe physical separation, if that makes sense.

24:22

So when you're looking at first Corinthians seven, basically first Corinthians, yeah, first Corinthians seven says this, seven, let's see, 714 for the, it says the unbelieving husband is made, we'll go with 13.

24:46

If any woman has a husband who's an unbeliever and he consents to live with her, if he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him.

24:54

For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it are, they are holy.

25:02

But if the unbelieving partner separates, so that's the word separate like physical distance himself.

25:08

It's the same word as the wife separating before that we read like physically, let it be.

25:13

So in such cases, the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace. And the rationale is for, you know, how do you know wife, whether or not you will save your husband or how do you know husband, whether or not you will save your wife.

25:24

So there is like, people laugh at that. Like, Oh, you're just going to try to save him and just, you know, take the abuse or whatever.

25:30

But it's like, that is, you know, unless he's not physically separating, right.

25:36

Then there is a, there is a missionary pole there. And that's part of why you don't want to divorce right away.

25:42

Cause you do have to have some concern about saving him. But I think you have a word there that's talking about physical separation.

25:48

It's not like emotional separation or anything else. So I don't find that very persuasive, but I think, you know, practically, the reason why people are going there is because there's benefits to like divorce, like in our society right now, there's a lot of benefits to divorcing financially to make the situation better and better in a lot of cases.

26:08

And so that gives, that helps clean up the situation, but you know, I just don't think you have biblical warrant for it, but I mean, that doesn't mean just stay there and get beat repeatedly or whatever.

26:20

That doesn't mean that you, there's, there's other options. I think you should wait it out. And often, I mean, if it's this kind of guy, he's going to cheat on you anyways, probably.

26:28

Right. Right. Like you leave, he's going to shack up with someone and then you're going to get out.

26:34

You can get out. Yeah. We already talked about that. But then you get out of the marriage in another way, you know?

26:40

So I think like it's, it's just, I think you, you, you're in a situation like this, I think, you know, you can wait it out and there can be another reason to get divorced at that point.

26:51

But I think separation is a good first step and give it time and not just be in a rush and see what, you know, be in prayer, see what the

26:59

Lord can do and see what, see what will happen. Okay. Fair enough. This has been another episode of Bible Bashed.

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