November 13, 2019 Show with Gary DeMar on “Last Days Madness: Obsession of the Modern Church”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

It's iron sharpens iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing

the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us.

Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have in view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host Chris

Arnzen.

Well, I can't

think

of a better way to start a show with Gary DeMar Than the REM song it's the

end of the world as we know it, but this is Chris Arnzen.

Welcoming you to iron sharpens iron radio and today is Wednesday, November

13th 2019 and we've got two postponement was on today joining this on

millennialist we've got a Gary DeMar who is the president of American vision and

He is the author of many books including the one that we are discussing today that has been

recently brought back into print in a newly revised edition last day's Madness

obsession of the modern church, and we also have joining us today a

fellow not only Postmillennialist but along with Gary a theonomist and a Christian Reconstructionist

we have pastor Christopher McDowell.

Who unlike Gary is a Baptist a reformed Baptist?

And he is one of the pastors one of two pastors at hope reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York.

But it's my honor and privilege first of all to welcome you back one of my favorite guests of all time Gary DeMar.

Hey, it's good to be back and.

We also have as I said pastor Chris McDowell.

This is his second appearance on iron sharpens iron radio the first time we were discussing his ministry

at abortion mills to rescue unborn children from murder and also to

bring those Contemplating that murder to faith in Jesus Christ, and it's my honor and privilege to

welcome you back as well pastor Christopher McDowell.

And.

Before we have Chris Give our listeners a bit of information about hope reform.

Baptist Church of Coram.

Gary for those of our listeners who are hearing you for the first time they might even be new believers.

They might even be Unbelievers or members of non -christian religions who have never heard of you

or American vision.

Why don't you tell our listeners about American vision?

1979 I came on board to a

larger minute world

view issues how the

Bible applies to every area of life

series

Explaining and had just gotten

involved people today probably don't even realize that but there was

in the late 1970s there was a bunch of

disgruntled the voters at the end of the 1970s and after jim the born -again candidacy

of Jimmy Carter.

They was even visible and talked to

me to write something to help Christians understand what the Bible had to say about government.

That government wasn't synonymous with Paul God is the governor of all

things self -government under God is the most important government and then family government church

government

ideas.

Because when I went out to speak on

worldview issues Invariably there'd be somebody in the audience who would say oh, wait a minute

We're living the last jay I'm

portion issue and so forth.

These are all signs of the end and Again, we have to remember 70s

was which came out in 1970 and he

predicted not Specifically, but he intimated with us

away and

all these things thing to

1948 you got 1988

1988 took place.

Well, here we are.

2019.

You would think

we're going to engage in a

One final battle called Armageddon or the area and also the dog and make log battle.

I say madness during this One of the outline

for Christians what the Bible had to say about about it in a very specific way.

In fact, I remember well when that book first came out and I don't know if you remember but I had

arranged At least a couple of interviews with you before I ever had my own talk show.

I was a an account executive for W MCA in New York

an affiliate of the largest Christian radio network in the world Salem

media and I.

Remember setting up interviews with you at least a couple with the late Andy Anderson

who had a program that it was originally called talk, New York, and then they changed it to Andy Anderson live and.

That's when our relationship our friendship began actually and that was a very thin Blue book I

remember and it's become a massive book by now.

Well, yeah, I wrote a series of articles and at that particular time.

Two guys Robert Woldermuth and Michael.

Hi, Thomas Nelson was writing a new publishing to see

Desperate looking for people to write books for them and I've heard quite a few books surviving college successfully.

You've heard it said and I did last day's madness.

They reprinted my God and three -volume God and government series.

I was now in control of the of the they were out of eventually went out

of business.

Michael Hyatt eventually then went Back Thomas Nelson.

He was even the president of Thomas Nelson and Thomas Nelson published my book End times

fiction, which was a critique of the left -behind series,

you know the additional

talk.

Like what about this and what about this and what about this and so I told him what about this and a larger edition.

Yeah, and I also remember I don't know if you do but it was a much more special event for me than

you.

I Guess but I remember the first time I actually met you face to face.

Was at a conference where you were speaking in Kingston, New York at a Christian Missionary

Alliance congregation that had actually become reformed and theonomic and you were doing a conference there

and that's when I first met you face to face and we even Made our

connections more frequent and stronger and I've been blessed and honored to know you all these years since the early

1990s.

Now to be back in Atlanta.

You got me back in Atlanta.

The first of the year first, yes, yes.

I hope I get to have lunch with you again, and maybe we can also have a haircut the same day again.

Yeah, Gary and I.

Yes, it was.

We had our haircuts and what seemed to be an all -black barber shop and they did a

great job.

Not.

Obviously, I'm going to be accused of racism by being surprised by that.

But it's just that the fact if your clientele usually has a different hair Texture you you might wonder if they're gonna

know how to cut a different type of hairstyle.

But they did a great job and we were both very impressed with the sign in the window.

If you recall you even took a picture of it.

In fact we both took pictures of it where they were warning that people with baggy pants wouldn't be allowed in

and that they demanded respect of the clientele and also the workers there

and That you have to make sure your children behave.

There was a long list of things that they were insisting upon.

Well, yeah

when I first met you in Kingston you had hair like

that.

Yeah, yeah, I've got a couple funny stories related to that but we don't have time.

Well, we also have.

As I said before about as I've already announced pastor Christopher McDowell who is actually a new

addition to the pastoral team at Hope Reform Baptist Church of

Coram Long Island, New York.

In fact, he is the one that made it a team because it was a solo act before and Now they have two

pastors along with Pastor Rich Jensen.

Many of you may recognize Pastor Rich as a moderator in a debate that I emceed

Between two very dear friends of mine.

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries and also Pastor Bill Shishko Who is now the pastor of the

Haven and Orthodox Presbyterian Church plant in Deer Park, Long Island, but they were debating on

infant baptism and Pastor Rich Jensen was the moderator and you all may remember that but Pastor

Chris and I may interchangeably call you Christopher and Chris.

Tell us about Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island.

Hope Reform Baptist Church was founded back in 96 by Pastor Jensen.

It was actually a church plant from Grace Reformed in Merrick as you well know Chris.

At the time there was another elder with him for that plant who since retired and moved down south.

But I actually joined about six years ago with my family.

We had started homeschooling and that led us to and what eventually led us to

Hope by God's very good providence.

So we've been attending six years now and I

was a deacon and then Installed as an elder just

a Reformed Baptist Church and London Baptist Confession of Faith.

Oh, but we don't have that required to be a member.

But yeah, we were a 1689 church and It's

the only confessional church I know of in Suffolk County right now, our sister church.

Wow, the only confessional Baptist Church you mean?

Confessional Baptist Church, right?

Sorry, I should have said that, right.

I only think of the Baptist sometimes.

And Pastor Rich, as long as I've known him, has been a post -millennialist.

In fact, I was at an ordination interview that turned into an

interrogation of sorts by some of the dispensationalist pastors who were on the panel

but he still got passed through and got ordained and.

And.

Pastor Rich has always been teetering on the edge of theonomy but not taking the plunge into it yet as

far as I know.

But maybe you're gonna push him into the the river being his co -pastor.

And you might not even be aware of this because this is before you were there, but James White and I

were at a specific youth retreat that Hope Reformed Baptist Church conducted

in Tuscarora, Pennsylvania and in fact, James White had been the

speaker at a number of those youth retreats, but on this one particular one they had

me doing some entertainment for the kids and James White begged me to be a part of it and

that might not sound so unusual.

Now because he's developed a sense of humor, but back then he was a very rigid and cold and humorless person.

So what we did was we sang a song that I wrote Making fun of the

postmillennial view of Pastor Jensen To the tune of high hopes and just one verse

of it was we've got high hopes.

We've got high hopes, we've got how Lindsay stick it in your eye hope

so but that was always a precious time going to those

youth retreats with Dear James White and all the folks there.

In fact the last line of that That song high hopes that James White and I did in harmony

was where's Ken Gentry when you need him? there there was a small faction of

folks there that would always make fun of Pastor Rich in humor, of course

claiming that they they strongly preferred the teaching of Ken Gentry and that's why we

but for those of you listening if you don't hear the end of this program because I plan to repeat all of

this information, but The website for hope reform Baptist Church of Coram Long Island, New

York is hope reformed li .net hope reformed li .net

and the website for American vision the ministry of Gary DeMar is

American vision org American vision Org and you should go right to that

website rather than do a Google search, but I think because I think you'll get up ophthalmologists and eyeglass companies

all that kind of thing.

In our name.

In fact, we had a.

We got a letter from years ago.

Sent him

a letter

occasion.

You will look at the number on this.

Well, I'm gonna give our email address out if anybody wants to join us on the air with a question of your own for

Gary DeMar our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And Christopher McDowell.

Pastor.

Christopher McDowell is serving as a co -host today Due to his admiration not only of Gary DeMar,

but also Specifically his book last day's madness, which he as I said before

Turned into a Bible study that lasted for quite a number of months the hope reform Baptist Church of Coram, New York.

But why don't you Give us some more detail about the reason

for writing last day madness.

He already gave us some detail, but the specific title last day's madness and

Some of our listeners who may be Dispensationalists or they may be even the

historic pre -millennialists or amillennialists.

They may be apprehensive thinking that you are Including each and every single one of them in

the Looney Tunes realm of eschatology.

So why don't you tell us about?

The primary reason that you have written this actually massive volume and that has been revised.

And also let us know what is different about the new version.

You talk about massive.

It's all the Baptist stuff that keeps coming out three and four and five volumes of systematic.

It's about 400 pages isn't.

It's 400 pages, but it's easy to read.

I got subheads and

73 and late great planet Earth was it was it was huge.

It was one book

26 million copies and it had an impact.

I think it still does have an

impact in our world today.

Here we are facing little changes regarding homosexuality

other Baptist even the PCM.

I'm a member of a PCA church here in Marietta, Georgia.

And we're being inundated by a great deal of

Impacted impaction out of it there.

I think there are at least two reasons for it.

One is this idea of this dual Christians aren't supposed to be

involved in things of this world.

Granted Schaefer.

I thought he had dismissed that years ago and his two -tiered approach to reality the

upper story going on down here.

That's one aspect to it and then

coupled to that is this idea that the Bible Directly

addresses that are taking place in our day wars and rumors of wars.

Psychological impact but it has an impact on people's.

Future thinking is that look if these things are supposed

are there's really nothing we can do about changing our culture.

It's a prophetic inevitability these things are going to happen.

And you couple that with Israel becoming a nation

again.

And then the 40 -year period and they change it to a 70 -year period now.

It's probably a hundred -year period since 1948.

I Think I think it's having an impact in on the church and I had a third

element to this.

I think young people they're looking for answers and if they go into a

church and they're hearing you know, a lot of a lot of pastors saying we're Living in the last days.

There's Jesus is coming soon and you know pack your bags and the you know.

The rapture is right or it could happen at any moment and so forth.

Well, but while the political and social and religious

left long -term

strife for the future.

Take you know, we're gonna we're going to take control of education.

We're going to control of every facet of society.

And this becomes a this becomes a kind of a self -fulfilling prophecy for Christians that

they you know.

There's nothing they can do or really should do because we're living in the end.

And I felt I just needed to sit down and look at all the popular passages.

That Christians used to make that kind of case

Exegetical way to demonstrate that

the Bible isn't dealing with.

Those particular prophecies aren't dealing with what we call the end times.

That they were dealing with a period including the destruction of Jerusalem that took place in

AD 70.

And I did that with the Matthew chapter 24 and Mark 13 Luke 21 The Olivet this course second

Thessalonians to the Antichrist Armageddon all those passages.

Dealing with the people say oh those were referring to our day and I maintain no they refer to

events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 something that Jesus clearly makes

evident

and.

Of course there are as we were just talking about off the air before the show There are people that

you would agree take that or those truths because even though I'm a non -millennialist I

consider myself a partial preterist.

But they take those truths and just like hyper Calvinists do they try to force those truths everywhere and

they become what we would call hyper Preterists.

They would call themselves just preterists or the believers in Realized eschatology and there's a

number of different phrases they use covenant eschatology.

But they take it to an extreme where they deny even the future return.

Visible physical return of Christ and the future physical visible raising of the dead.

And you would.

You.

Quite a few.

And I find it interesting that One of the reasons I got into this in the first place was

because the impact the

involvement.

A lot of these full preterists on many passages are actually, you know, pretty good.

They align

You've got all Millennials to Jay Adams is a

Full preterist.

They're just as bad.

Many of them are just as bad as the dispensationalist and and time advocates because they have the

same and Worldview Christianity that they do.

They don't.

They don't see the Bible applying beyond 8070.

They everything took place in 8070.

And I'm not I have not seen a kind of a worldview study.

By these guys.

Oh, yeah, and they have a very depressing

eschatology far from a post -millennial one.

That this wretched planet just continues to crank on and never

comes to any kind of and and.

Unless we destroy it with a nuclear war or something, but it's quite depressing and

I Reject it strongly.

In fact, I'm working on a debate folks.

So if you are listening, please pray that this debate actually comes to fruition.

One of the debaters is a former hyper preterist Sam Frost who has become

I believe he would consider himself today an on millennial partial preterist.

But I don't I don't

even know if he's okay.

It'd be interesting to.

I hope this debate turns out.

And again, I I agree with you on what the debate topic.

Time you can you can handle that with your.

Well, we're gonna go to our first break right now and when we return I'd like pastor Christopher McDowell

to Explain how the congregation at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram,

Long Island Responded to the last day's madness Bible study that you conducted for a while and

and and.

I want you to keep in mind pastor Chris.

Please do not wait for me to ask you to ask a question or give a comment.

If you see an opening in our conversation just jump in there.

Because since we can't see each since we cannot see each other I I don't want to accidentally or unconsciously leave

you out of the conversation.

Don't want you to make sure that you jump in as often as you Have something that you want to say and

there is an opening in or break in the discussion.

So.

So and we.

We've also got a number of people already lined up to have their own Questions asked and answered in our audience and we'll get to as

many of you as we can before the end of the program.

But if anybody wants to get in line if we can squeeze you in our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com CHRI s ARN z en a gmail .com and as always.

Please give us your first name your city and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous.

If your question involves a personal and private matter Let's say you have an eschatological view that is different

from your own pastor or own Congregation or perhaps you're a pastor and you have an eschatological view

that differs from your own fellow elders or your denomination.

Well, I understand why you'd want to remain anonymous.

But if it's not personal and private, please give us at least your first name your city and state in your country of residence.

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Gary DeMar president of American vision and also my co -host pastor Christopher McDowell

One of two pastors at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York and we are discussing The latest

edition the latest revised edition of last day's madness one of the

monumental works of our guest a Gary DeMar and Christopher McDowell before we go

to any listener questions, if you could let our listeners know What led you to first discover

Gary and his book and what led you to also implement it for a Bible study?

Yeah, actually I wanted to clarify a little bit of information.

When we were sharing before about Pastor Jensen and not being a theonomist and maybe I'll push him over He's

actually always called himself a lowercase p theonomist.

And you know the pledging congregation and some people not even sure about eschatology and stuff he didn't want to put up any

necessary barriers for them to you know, so we put ourselves out there as a 1689 church, so

I do hold to theonomy in terms of a world view where there has to be a standard for law and order

and justice.

It only makes sense to have a man who always seen

me and Pastor Jensen are much closer on the same page that.

You might think so.

So Pastor Rich is a week.

T onimist you're saying.

Yeah, don't forget about me.

I've got to see you tomorrow.

He's actually been a great mentor to me and coming actually.

You got to visit with us and sit

in on a Sunday school.

It's actually going to we're going through a survey of the Old Testament.

And I was going through the book of Amos and so the day you happen to sit in I was recommending

last day's madness because when you're in the Old Testament.

As Gary has mentioned, you know.

These things you have to know the Bible to know.

What's going on in Revelation?

What's going on in Matthew 24?

This language is often used in the Old Testament.

So Last day's madness for me was a great example of understanding the

symbolism, the Symbolic language that is used

so for someone like me and others in the

Sensational background book would be very helpful.

In fact, when I first came to hope I had come thinking about, you know

left behind theories with Tim LaHaye and all that and One of the first

Tuesday night Bible study book studies that we did These amendments and

we actually went through that Matthew 24 huge

for me that I so appreciate you Gary for Helping to

and make it so clear

theology Prior coming to Covenant theology and this you know with

conversations I was having with you know, my brothers at Henson.

Also, I appreciated apology at churches ministry with Jeff Durbin in their their podcast search.

I think anyone who actually gets a hold of it and reads it if they're coming from a dispensational mindset.

It is interesting Gary that there seems to be a growing number of Baptist theonomists when I

first Became acquainted with you.

They were rarer than a Loch Ness monster sighting.

I mean you can.

There was a or it still is a church here in Pennsylvania a Manual

Reform Church, that is a Reform Baptist Church.

That is reconstructionist.

In fact the pastor I don't know if he still does but for years he wrote articles for

Roushosh John Rush Dooney in the calcine on report and I think I knew of one other one, but there

seems to be a really Significantly growing number.

Have you experienced that and witnessed that yourself?

All

right,

and

Greg

Bonson was

the professor in dealing

with

Greg's and I'm

kind of surprised

a lot of people get involved in it.

Now last day's madness.

Are you?

I have read read the book, but for the sake of our listeners who haven't who might be apprehensive to pick it up.

How are you primarily.

Promoting theonomy and Reconstruction or just correcting the errors of eschatological views

that may be harmful in the way Christians behave as

good stewards of this planet.

That you know to prevent them from being so pessimistic about their role and duty

in this world.

Because they think that the end of the world is just around the corner that you're correcting those

errors.

And the eschatological errors outside of post -millennialism rather than promoting specifically theonomy and

reconstruction.

Eschatology book.

I don't even

deal with the

millennial question.

Is it the millennial question?

Last day's madness

because What I deal with are Supposedly

that half of you get to the Millennium

touch on that.

I everything in this in last day's madness deals with the events

Supposedly leaving leading up to the last days that are in our immediate future.

Just don't I give you a

good example the word Antichrist.

Always ask the question I go on.

I speak somewhere I said what book of the Bible do you think the word Antichrist appears?

More times than any other book.

And most people say well the the book of Revelation.

And I said, you know that the word Antichrist is revelations, right?

I said give me a bit give me the biblical.

Had a few people actually give me the biblical definition

of Antichrist.

Denial that Christ came in the flesh.

Yeah, you know someone who denies that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh.

That is the biblical definition of Antichrist.

He's not a political figure he's a Field he's a religious figure.

The Antichrist in the New Testament.

Deal with somebody who was alive and well in the only

place the word Antichrist appears.

But I say

tame children.

It is the last hour.

This is another

extremely important eschatology, but with anything else and So

John is writing says children is the last hour and just as you heard that Antichrist is coming.

So not only do we have a time reference here, but we have an audience reference.

Jesus is addressing a particular audience that he wrote this letter

to.

You heard that Antichrist is coming.

Even now another time indicator many Antichrists have arisen.

So there isn't a singular Antichrist.

There are many Antichrists from this there are many

Antichrists already in the world.

We know that it is the last hour last hour here can't mean 2

,000 2 ,000 years.

Describing a group of people and

deceivers have gone out into the wild acknowledged.

Jesus Christ is coming in the flesh.

This is the deceiver in the Antichrist.

So here we have a specific biblical definition of Antichrist.

An indication

that it is the events

leading up to the

destruction of Jerusalem in 8070.

You got Matthew Mark and Luke to deal.

Specifically

go through the Bible and go through the Synoptic Gospels and you see how much

Material coming a

generation passed away all this fits neatly together

48 and that's what last

days madness does it?

Where's the term Antichrist.

You don't have to be a seminary student or a biblical

scholar to figure these things out.

All you have to do is read the text you come up with a very

simple way of explaining What Jesus had in mind.

This is not a very sensational.

Everybody wants to know what's going to happen in the future.

And he's based upon

Ezekiel 38 and 30 and may

God saying this is this is exciting for

people.

And then you you add to that the idea of the rapture that's

a very attractive position.

But the question we need to ask is does the Bible actually teach that and I maintain no.

It's related to

that and trying to answer them in a well.

We have to go to our midway break believe it or not.

This is a longer than normal break, unfortunately folks.

But we need this break in order to survive because our advertisers is are what keeps us on the air.

We also take a longer break in the middle because grace life radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida Who airs this

program twice daily needs this break to localize iron trip and Zion radio to Lake City,

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please be patient with us during this elongated break.

But also make use of the time by writing down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and

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Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Gary DeMar and also my co -host pastor Christopher McDowell after these messages

from our sponsors.

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And I are excited to be attending another g3 conference together in Atlanta, Georgia Thursday January

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I'll be on the speaking lineup with Eric Thomas Joel Beakey Paul Washer Steve Lawson Phil

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Hi, this is John Sampson pastor of Kings Church in Peoria, Arizona.

Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the iron sharpens iron podcast.

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We hope you will join us some Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior.

Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about.

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our Sovereign

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always.

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I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.

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James White of Alpha Omega Ministries and the dividing line webcast here.

Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach preach and debate at numerous venues some of my

very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the Brethren at Hope

Reform Baptist Church now located at their new beautiful facilities in Coram, Long Island, New York.

I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions.

Have led youth retreats for them and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my New York debates.

I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island to anyone who wants to be

accurately taught Discipled and edified by the Holy Scriptures and to be surrounded by truly loving

and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram for the recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder

Pastor Christopher McDowell.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

That's hopereformedli .net or

call 631 -696 -5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711.

Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron

Sharpens Iron Radio.

One sure way all Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in we've got as a guest today Gary DeMar, the author of Last Day's Madness and

we also have as my co -host Pastor Christopher McDowell.

One of two pastors at Hope Perform Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York.

If you'd like to join us on the air if you want to get online because we do have a number of people waiting to Have their questions asked and answered.

Our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com and if we could squeeze you in Before the program is over.

We will do so.

But before we return to the discussion I just have a few announcements to make regarding special events that I hope you

will attend.

The first involves a very key member of Hope Perform Baptist Church, Long Island, New York.

That's Anthony Euvenio.

He is the founder or co -founder of New York Apologetics and he who

along with Eli Ayala.

Who is the the resident Apologist for the

Historical Bible Society whose ads you hear on the show.

They with a brother named Ryan Gallon and I may have mispronounced that but

they are going to be speaking at a conference this weekend.

At the Presbyterian Church of Islip, New York on 340 Main Street, Islip and

that's November 16th.

From 9 a .m. To 2 p .m.

The theme that they are discussing is building upon the rock developing a Christ -centered

defense.

That's this Weekend of November 16th 9 a .m.

To 2 p .m. At the Presbyterian Church of Islip, New York if you want more details on

this event, you can go to reformed rookie calm reformed rookie

calm and You can also send me an email and I will get you the information.

My email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

So we hope you can make it to that event this weekend.

Also, I Am going to be heading out to my old stomping grounds this December that's New York

City and they are going to be holding the foundations conference a conference of

sermon audio calm in the heart of Manhattan in the heart of the Christmas season and I can't think of a better

place in the planet Earth to be spending at least a part of the Christmas season in New York City the foundations conference is for

men and ministry leadership only and A lot of that has to do with the small venue that they have

they can only seat less than 200 people.

So if you're a man in ministry leadership, and you'd like to join me there At the foundations conference Thursday and

Friday December 19th and 20th I go to the foundations conference calm.

The foundations conference calm the speakers include dr Stephen J Lawson Paul Washer Reverend Jeff Thomas

Reverend Orman Tomasi and Richard Colwell jr.

And Andrew Quigley once again, the website is the foundations conference calm.

And I hope to see you Thursday and Friday December 19th and 20th in New York City at the foundations conference.

Then the g3 conference that you heard Gary DeMar mentioned earlier.

The g3 conference is one of my favorite events.

It is absolutely spectacular.

It will be held January 16th through the 18th 2020 at the Georgia International Convention

Center in College Park, Georgia a suburb of Atlanta.

This January's theme is on worship matters and they also

have a phenomenal Lineup of speakers including once again, dr. Stephen J Lawson

and also my very longtime friend.

Dr James R white of Alpha Omega ministries a Phil Johnson the executive director of John

MacArthur's media ministry grace to you happens to be the most Interviewed guest on iron sharpen design radio in our history

since we launched in 2005.

My friend Todd Friel who you've been hearing promote this conference through advertisements on the show.

He is the founder of wretched TV and wretched radio.

Derek Thomas who's a world -renowned Presbyterian?

Author and teacher and conference speaker my friend.

Dr. Tom Askell who is the executive director of the founders ministries

which is the Calvinistic ministry within the Southern Baptist Convention and Kosti Hinn who is

the nephew believe it or not of Benny Hinn but Kosti unlike his uncle has

renounced the word -of -faith heresies that he was raised in and He is a reformed Baptist

and a cessationist.

Who just recently left his post in California and accepted a call to a church in

Arizona?

Where he is now pastoring and there are many more on this roster and the latest edition is John MacArthur

himself.

And I would go to the g3 conference if it was just John MacArthur speaking I so highly regard him as one of my

modern -day heroes, even though I disagree with him on eschatology.

But he is a wonderful preacher and teacher and if you want to join me there Thursday January 16th

through Saturday, January 18th in Atlanta, Georgia at the Georgia International Convention Center

go to g3 conference calm g3 conference calm and I strongly urge you if you have a

business a power church organization a Special event or anything else that you want to promote to

a large number of Christians.

This is an ideal place to man an exhibitors booth just as I have done For three years and this

January will be my fourth Year where I'm manning an exhibitors booth for iron trip and Zion radio.

It's well you're worth your while because they have over 5 ,000 people that attend this every year and with John MacArthur on the lineup

I am very confident.

They will have over 6 ,000 people there.

That's just a guess, but it's an educated.

Yes.

So if you want to join me there go to g3 conference calm g3 conference calm and register to either

attend only.

Or to also man an exhibitors booth at g3 conference calm and if you want to man an exhibitors booth do

so quickly or register quickly because they're gonna run out of exhibitors booth space a lot more quickly than

they'll run out of a room in the auditorium where you can sit because it's a massive place that the

Georgia International Convention Center.

So register at g3 conference calm last but not least if you love this show and you don't want it to disappear from

the airwaves.

You look forward to the guests and topics that we feature on this show that are

Sometimes never heard anywhere else or at least rarely.

You love sharing the free downloadable mp3s with your family friends and loved ones.

Well, please if you love the show you have extra money collecting interest in the bank.

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You have extra money and you love the show and you don't want it to disappear.

Please we are an urgent need of your help.

December is a very scary month for us right now.

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Needed for the studio facility that we have, please Please go to iron sharpens

iron radio dot -com click support then click click to donate now.

We thank hope reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island for being a regular supporter of this show.

We thank Anthony Eugenio's New York apologetics for being a sponsor of this show and helping us out financially

every month.

We thank also our new sponsors Grace Church at Franklin in Franklin, Tennessee.

And their website is Grace Church at Franklin org.

We thank them for being new sponsors.

And if you want to advertise with us Please send me an email to Chris Arnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the

subject line because we really do need your advertising Dollars.

Also if you are not a member of a local Bible believing church and you're not even prayerfully looking for one.

You're living in rebellion against God and I can help you find a church God willing.

I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world and I've already helped people all over the world who listen to this show

find churches whether they have joined them or visited them on vacation or recommended and Recommended

them to family friends and loved ones who are without a church.

So, please send me an email to Chris Arnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line.

That's also the email address where you could send in a question to Gary DeMar on his book last days madness.

And once again, that's Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

We are now back with not only Gary DeMar of American vision and author of last day's madness

Obsession of the modern church, but we also have our co -host Christopher McDowell.

With us and let me before I go back to Gary or have pastor Chris ask any

questions.

Let me make sure that I get at least a couple of these questions read from listeners.

Who have been waiting?

Hopefully patiently, but they've been waiting for a long time.

We have Andrew in Avon Lake, Ohio.

Many of my Dispensationalist friends claim that the nation of Israel must be fully

restored to its old covenant state in Order to have a literal fulfillment of Old

Testament prophecies about its future.

If that is true, then why wouldn't Babylon and Assyria need to be fully restored in

order for their prophecies? to be understood literally some Dispensationalists I

know are preterist Concerning prophecies about Babylon Assyria, etc.

Why is this option not allowed to be applied to Israel in their system?

That's a that's a pretty good point, Gary.

I think the reason is they would say that God had a specific covenant with Israel.

And God didn't have a specific covenant with with Babylon or but

here's the problem with the with that dual covenant.

Because what the dispensationalist teach is that God?

Put on hold his covenant with Israel.

Believe the nation of Israel rejected Jesus as the promised Messiah.

That the dispensationalist have claimed is the church

age really predicted in the Bible.

Sensationalists who believe in an eternal covenant with Israel is they postpone that eternal covenant for nearly 2

,000 years.

Very sketchy about this eternal covenant with Israel then.

Once the rapture takes place Church is taken off the earth.

Now.

God starts dealing with Israel again.

This is the the 69th the 70th week of Daniel.

Which is a seven -year period in which the Great Tribulation takes place and then during that seven -year period.

Two -thirds of the Jews living in Israel are slaughtered.

So God first of all postpones his covenant with Israel for 2 ,000 years.

Then he finally he's going to deal with Israel again.

And during the time he deals with Israel again.

He allows the Antichrist to come in and kill two -thirds of the Jews so God waits 2

,000 years.

To renew his covenant with Israel then he gives them over to the Antichrist.

So millions of them are slaughtered again.

And I had a debate with Dr. Michael Brown a great great guy would get along very well, and I asked him about

this.

I said dr. Brown you talk about this eternal covenant with Israel.

Tribulation period.

Two -thirds of the Jews are going to be slaughtered.

When is this covenant for Israel going to be?

Established, but

he didn't have an answer for it.

I've been waiting for a couple of years.

He told me he was gonna get back to me on it, but he never had you know.

I used to I used to work for as you know, a major radio station in New York City,

and I always was baffled by the on a on Eagles

Wings commercials which were basically The

people promoting this on Eagles Wings ministry were dispensationalists and they were promoting

Rescuing Jews from the Soviet Union and other parts of the world.

I guess this is before the fall of Soviet Union or those living in the ruins of the Soviet Union

After it collapsed who were living in impoverished areas and so on and perhaps being

persecuted, but they wanted to Bring the Jews back to Israel and yet these same people believe that two

-thirds of them are going to be slaughtered.

Which made it very bizarre to me.

It was almost like you're promoting The sale of tickets on a train to Auschwitz or

something and I don't mean to that disrespectfully.

But it really meant basically that same thing if you believe that two -thirds of those in Israel will be

murdered.

Well, this is the thing Chris is

that it's position but that is their position.

I hope

these aren't friends or

mainstream.

The tribulation period in which two -thirds of the Jews are going to be are going to be

Slaughtered John

Wall position.

And I had a debate with Thomas Thomas ice a number of years ago.

And he said oh, well, that's that's true.

But the billions more are going to be

position.

This is the position ascendancy.

That it doesn't really matter because we're going to be wrapped.

Yeah, we won't be murdered.

Annihilated we won't be we'll be taken off the earth and we'll be with Jesus in heaven while all hell breaks loose

on earth and God allows another Holocaust to take place that

God fulfilled all of us, you know, you look at you look at Pentecost.

There were Jews living in Israel from every nation

to

every

creature under heaven

and what we find

drafted in together into one new dividing wall is

broken down.

Together make this idea of

a post.

Bible doesn't talk about it.

The Bible doesn't talk new in the

New Testament the the Greek word ecclesia by a

Hebrew new Translation.

If you look at the Septuagint, which is a great chance translation of the Old Testament You'll see that the

Hebrew placea

placea in the wilderness the church in the wilderness.

You say the same thing and in Hebrews chapter 2 there wasn't any new thing in the New Testament.

The ecclesia.

Wasn't anything new.

It were Chapter 5.

By the way, that is the basis of a dispensational something new.

There'll be

anything in the Bible.

No specific verse that teaches any of that.

It's called like the parenthesis of the parenthesis view, right.

That the church is only a parenthesis.

Between.

The book by Ironside called the great parenthesis.

There's no parenthesis in the Bible.

They make up stuff.

They put a gap between the 69th and the 70th week of Daniel.

And what's interesting about that in order they get that out of Daniel chapter 9.

There's you know 70 weeks and at the end of the 69th week Ops, and then now we're

living in this thing called the church age and the church age will stop when the rapture of the church Takes place.

You cannot find that in that passage and in fact what you find in Daniel chapter

9 is that Daniel is Contemplating the near the end of the

70 year exile.

And it was that exile was coming to a close and he was reading the book of Jeremiah about this

I want you to think about this the 70 years of exile is is Parallel to the 70

weeks of years at the end of the Daniel chapter 9.

So you get 70 years of captivity at the beginning that was coming to an end two weeks of years.

What if God had decided he was going to put a gap between the 69th and the 70th year of

the exile and After a few years some of the Israelites who are still in captivity said

maybe we ought to ask God what this is all about.

He said and so they call they call him God God.

What about this this these extra years?

Oh, no, they're not extra years.

It's a parenthesis.

And so you're you're still living in this in the 69th year.

I just put a parenthesis in there.

We're going to keep you in captivity.

Who knows how long maybe 2 ,000 years and then eventually I'll let you out of the exile by getting

rid of the captivity

would be.

About if God put a parenthesis in it, it's the same within 70 weeks of years 70 weeks of

years the 70th week the first the history

and the Vision about the

gospel going to the Gentiles.

That's the end of the 70 weeks.

You know when I used to hear those ads for on Eagles wings I couldn't help but think that you know, because they would run

those ads like a telethon.

Sometimes.

I could help but think that there might be like a Ku Klux Klansman somewhere listening and calling in saying how much does it cost to?

Send ten Jews back to Israel, you know.

Told that the whole thing was nonsensical.

And what I asked somebody when I confronted them about this.

This bizarre excitement that they have of Jews returning to Israel knowing that two -thirds of them will be

slaughtered.

Of course that was never in the ad.

They said oh that's because it's ushering in the rapture and I'm like so.

Even if you view that as a part of your eschatology.

Why be excited about the Jews that.

You know, you're excited about the rapture at the expense of millions of Jews being killed.

But not

only that a few years ago.

There was a Evangelicals and so

forth in your level.

He brought up this very topic about you know, yeah.

Yeah, they support Israel they're going to be raptured out of here, but there's going to be another Holocaust that takes place after that and.

You never heard from this guy again.

This is this is the position and I mentioned I could say I mentioned this to Thomas Ice when I debated

him.

And he you know that no one has an answer to this.

They have to hold to that particular position beyond a.

He actually believes that Israel has to be kicked out of the land.

Believing also we should so according to them to a

system that Israel is going to have to be kicked out of Israel again and be

brought back believing

and.

Thank you, Andrew.

Give us your full mailing address so that CV bbs .com Carmelin Valley Bible Book Service can ship out to

you a copy of the newly revised edition of last -date madness.

And we thank not only CV bbs .com for shipping out all of our winners every time that we

are giving away books and other items we thank them for shipping those items out to our listeners free of charge and

We also thank obviously American vision for providing these copies that we are giving away.

Before I go to my co -host Christopher McDowell. I want to ask one more audience question.

We have John in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

And who says.

I am curious as to why so many preterists believe that God still has a plan

in the future for Israel as a nation.

Wasn't God's purpose for the Jews fulfilled with the coming of the Messiah.

Well, I like I'll give you an example.

I think maybe this is where John's coming from.

I don't know.

Somebody that I have known for many years a friend of mine who I disagree with on his federal vision views but

a person that I've known for many years as a friend of Steve Schlissel, I Think I think

he made sense in saying although the the new

nation of Israel that that rose up in the mid 20

or early 20th century.

Although not a fulfillment of biblical prophecy obviously occurred under the divine decree of

God because he is in sovereign control of all things.

Could that be a part of the reason why some preterists would would view the things

the way that?

John and Carlisle was saying.

Well that particular view the idea that Romans 11

there are a lot of postal

maybe in the back or 11.

Postmillennialist use that to say there will be a time in the future

That Jesus says the Messiah.

And as a postmillennialist, of course, I hold that same position.

Of course, I also believe that Muslims and Catholics and and communists are also going to embrace Jesus

as the promise inside.

That's post

perspective.

If one is

to

the faith

you can see that

there are 11.

While you're looking I'll just give our email address again.

It's Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

And if you have any intention to send us a question You got to do it immediately because we've already got a line Growing here.

So if you want to send a question do it now to Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Romans 11 verse.

Chapter 11 verse 1.

I say then God has not rejected his people.

Has he may it never be Paul, right?

Right to him

and and pleads with

God against Israel Lord.

They have killed by prophets.

They have torn down my altars and I alone am blessed.

And they were seeking my life.

But what is the divine response to him?

I have kept for myself 7 ,000 men who have not bowed the knee to bail.

Now listen to this next verse in.

The same way to be at the

present time to God's

great all of these passages in the Old Testament.

Referring to Israel this was taking place in his day.

The fulfillment was taking place in his day just like Elijah and the

seven thousand Tens of thousands were embracing Jesus as the promised Messiah.

All you have to do is read the book of Acts 3 ,000 here and 5 ,000 there and Paul takes the gospel.

You know throughout the and you

find and collide it

here.

Just come to you just as in all the world also.

It is constantly bearing fruit and increasing.

Verse 23 indeed.

If you continue in the

faith, I had gone

after the whole known world at that particular

time.

The Jews heard a remnant embraced the gospel and

there were those who didn't.

That's the fulfillment of all the Bible prophecy.

Thank you, John and give us your full mailing address so that you can receive a free copy of the newest edition of last days Madness

as well.

Before I go to another listener I want Christopher McDowell to chime in because I know

he is waiting with baiting baited breath to ask you a question.

I'm trying to bring to light their edits

and whatnot.

I've

heard time and

again about

the

finally

people.

But all I know is that when I started to

interviews a

tree

evening

things over the years In fact, I'd be on some some programs on eschatology and

everybody who called in Was Oh Gary.

I read your book or yeah, I've heard this, you know here and I gave up

Dispensationalism in my lifetime.

It has changed dramatically the number of people who are abandoning Dispensationalism.

In fact, I just put up a short videos on my Facebook page and

Know that two or two and three minute clips that I did when I was on

and I used to be a dispensationalist

there are a lot of young guys

Jeff Durbin movement among

Christians today and in one of the Short videos and I did there hasn't been

a scholarly book defending

Dispensationalism

in at least 20 years to take their footnotes.

You'll see they know if

they do Mention preterism, they only do it briefly and

the argument that I raised I can't get a debate

today anymore.

Maybe I quit even trying to do that.

Hey, there you go.

Chris.

Why don't you John MacArthur's gonna be a g3?

Why don't you have why don't you have James White get a debate

a friendly debate John and I will get on stage.

We'll discuss eschatology with James White as the moderator.

I think that's an excellent idea.

How how far I'll get in convincing anybody to do that is another story.

But I agree with you.

That would be it.

That would be.

Pessimistic pessimistic theonomist.

Well, we're gonna go to our.

I'm actually Chris.

I'm actually serious.

I think you ought to talk to James and say hey Gary DeMar we have a.

Fill the place.

Oh, I I am totally serious when I agree with you on that and perhaps for 2021.

Well, we can pull that off.

God willing.

Of course because I would love that I and I think that you that you would draw.

Probably the biggest crowd that they ever had having something like that, but but we are going to our final break.

It's gonna be a lot briefer than the last one.

If you want to send us a question do it immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

Don't go away.

God willing it will be right back.

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You.

Welcome back.

And by the way Gary and Chris you will probably be pleased to know that Dan, but if you go

who's whose ad you just heard he.

Although he might not be a theonomist or reconstructionist.

He does adamantly hold to an early dating of the writing of the New Testament so I thought that

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Joy and truth.

Amen, we have Jerry and Kopeck, New York.

How is it that so many in the church today have so misrepresented Matthew 24?

How did its understanding get so far off track?

Do you have a an understanding of history where this began where the the view that you hold?

disappeared from popularity.

I didn't really trace the history of all this but

as amazing how many books have been published over the centuries

using the destruction of Jerusalem in 1870.

Especially events of Matthew 24.

Particular generation.

The people who have passages.

A Latin scholar who

has translated an enormous number of

early manuscripts.

From Latin and English that have never been translated before and he has found all kinds of examples.

Before is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in 87.

They called the day in the hour.

He went he went.

Century but decade by decade.

Showing the the end of the world that there was no

rapture doctrine prior to the 19th.

Their generation was the generation.

Wars and rumors of wars and false.

So both both views have.

That's not

the case in

the book of Revelation.

Ways, it's

really hard to come up with a single

view probably the revelation which

is over nearly 2 ,000 years of history.

And to get us your.

Full mailing address and we'll get you a free copy of Last day's madness compliments of American vision and

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To you or to iron trip and Zion radio.

We have Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina.

And Grady says I belong to a reformed Baptist Church with believers of different eschatological views.

We all agree on the basic tenets of our faith and have some interesting discussions among ourselves.

However, I've noticed on some of the podcasts I listen to that some of our brethren will

attack others if they don't have the same eschatology.

Do you agree that on eschatology?

We should agree to disagree and love through Christ and let the world see the love of

Christ.

It bothers me when as brothers we attack one another in public.

For the world to see if it is one of the basic tenets that's worth fought it.

If it is one of the basic tenets worth fighting for that's Grady and Asheboro, North Carolina.

They're major doctrines.

There's more on eschatology in the Bible than baptism, for example.

So if you belong to a Baptist Church and you adhere to baptism and

you make that fundamental to the faith You have to say that eschatology is even more significant because

you've got a sense of the Bible as eschatology.

Then we have to remember also that liberals have used the doctrine of eschatology to

Critique the reliability and inspiration of the Bible.

They said look Jesus was wrong about He

didn't therefore Jesus was wrong that the Bible is wrong on this

issue.

This was this was something that was brought up in the debate between Christopher Hitchens and Douglas Wilson

on the film that I was one of the producers on called collision at the Westminster Theological

Seminary in Philadelphia.

Hitchens brought up Matthew chapter 24 and Doug and Douglas Wilson was in

just with a minute.

Maybe a minute and a half immediately.

Critiqued.

Hitchens's Stymie Hitchens,

he had never heard it before.

He didn't have an answer before.

A Dispensationalist, I'm sorry to say could not answer it that quickly.

It'd be all kinds of redefining what generation meant.

It means this race or the generation that sees these signs.

You know, there's the the audience relevance.

You can't use the second person plural dealing with it.

They would it would take them days in order to go through it.

Douglas Wilson and took the Bible seriously took Jesus's

word seriously and and Christopher Hitchens didn't have an answer for it.

We have Johnny in Queens, New York.

Your intro was a journey back into memory lane.

I remember being introduced to Gary and biblical preterism by calling in to Andy Anderson show

in the 1990s and also meeting Gary for the first time at Kingston, New York.

Oh, wow both things that I mentioned before Gary's works have profoundly influenced my life and view of

Scripture and walk with Christ.

Well, that was not a question, but just a wonderful thing he said.

Well, uh, Gary we have a minute for you to Summarize and conclude what you want to have to our etched in the hearts and minds of our

listeners today.

Well, I would just say

look then that we need to study with village

vision org.

It's too much of a book since Chris said it was more of a town.

I never said that.

I would suggest I was a shorter book called Matthew

chapter 24.

It's a short version of it.

They have another book called wars and rumors of wars.

Which is just on Matthew 24, but it's more expanded.

Vision org.

Go to my Facebook page Gary DeMar and I've got a number of videos up there.

Go to

Study to show yourself approved that and I know that the hope reform.

Baptist Church of Quorum, Long Island, New York.

Website is hope reformed li .net hope reformed li .net.

Thank you both for being on my program.

I look forward to both of you returning very soon.

I want to thank everybody who listened especially those who took the time to write in questions.

And I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater

Savior than you are.

A sinner.

Make sure you tune in tomorrow as my guests will be Anthony Eugenio of New York apologetics and Eli Ayala

of the Historical Bible Society.