August 8, 2018 Show with Tom Buck on “The Revoice Conference Examined & Critiqued”

The Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Introduction and Proverbs 27:17

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Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this eighth day of August 2018.

I'm delighted to have back on the program a returning guest today, a guest who is a mutual friend of Dr. James R. White and mine, Pastor Tom Buck. He is senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Lindale, Texas, and today we are going to be addressing the very controversial REVOICE conference.

This conference will be examined and critiqued today by our guest, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Tom Buck.

It's great to be here, thank you, Chris, with you today. I appreciate the program that's so.

Helpful to so many Christians. I really appreciate that, and why don't we, first of all, get an idea.

Of what First Baptist Church of Lindale, Texas, is all about? Well, I've been here for what the.

Oh yeah, Tom's a good friend, and I've interviewed him many times. Now, you were on the program once before, if my memory serves me correctly. You were on the program when I was manning an exhibitor's booth at the G3 conference, correct?

That is correct.

So, since this is your first two-hour interview with us, I would like you to do what we normally do only with first-time guests, but I don't think we did this when you were a guest at the G3 conference, because it was an abbreviated interview.

But even if we did do this, it can't hurt to do it again. I'd love for you to give a summary of your own salvation testimony.

Absolutely, I'd be glad to do that. I grew up in a...to the Lord, I had to just...

Praise God. And I do know, personally, some men that came out of Moody also, full-fledged Calvinists, even though the professors they had that echoed that theology were in a minority, at least when they went, but the school was still used by our sovereign God to bring them to those conclusions.

And I can remember when I was working part-time for Calvary Press, who published James White's book, The Potter's Freedom, a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's book, Chosen But Free, the anti-Calvinist book that Norman Geisler wrote.

And I remember one of my tasks at Calvary Press was to get notable individuals to write endorsements for the book. And Erwin Lutzer, now the pastor emeritus of the Moody Church there in Chicago, Illinois, he could not wait to write an endorsement for James's book.

He loved the manuscript, was thrilled with it, and was very upset at Norman Geisler for writing his book. So, among the many prominent figures that endorsed The Potter's Freedom, Erwin Lutzer stands out among them.

In fact, this is a reminder to me that I've got to get a hold of Erwin to interview him because in all the years I've been doing this show, I have never interviewed Erwin. I remember I tried a couple of times and our schedules didn't match, but I've got to get on the phone, perhaps even tonight, to get Erwin Lutzer on the program.

Well, Dr. Lutzer made a huge impact on my life because while I was a student...

Great. Well, I'm going to give our email address out. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And since Pastor Tom is a pastor, we will allow questions of a personal, private, intimate background that have a pastoral need to them. So I can understand if anybody wants to remain anonymous, that's fine.

But if it's just a general question about our topic, then please at least give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence. Well, tell us about the genesis of the REVOICE conference that recently took place.

Tell us about who were the prominent figures who launched this conference and why they launched it. And even tell us something about why they called it REVOICE.

The Origins of the Revoice Conference and Its Side A Theology

Okay, I'd be glad to do that. Let me get right. Five years ago, he gave a talk about homosexual relationships. Now, the argument is that he himself claims to be a chaste homosexual and a born-again believer at the same time, correct?

Well, yes, except he desires and thinks it's fine for him to marry as long as it should be chaste until James Wise extends Matthew Vines' argument. They recognize his teaching. Well, that has become what Matthew Vines promotes, Side A of this.

And that Side A of the argument is to be gay and be in a broader category of same-sex. Yes, well, I'm assuming that they are also getting a lot of negative feedback.

From those like Matthew Vines who think that they are just holding back the rest of those who identify themselves as homosexuals from having more liberty and freedom and having the same opportunities in marriage and every other aspect of life that the heterosexuals have.

Am I right on that? Are they taking heat from the other side as well as those that are correctly rebuking them from the biblical inerrancy side, the, I would call the historical and biblical Christian side?

So, I'm assuming that they are taking heat from both sides now.

From what I understand that they are what we call demoralized.

No, I don't know how monolithic this group is that gathered at Revoice and who has the notion that there are gay Christians but they must be chased or married to an opposite gender. But do they view their condition itself, do they view their desires.

As either a disorder or more accurately sin? Well, that's where it gets really sticky because you begin to listen to them speak or even engage them in the individuals but Revoice had saluted anyone who was not.

Someone signed up for the conference and they.

Oh, so you couldn't even be in the audience if you.

No. Okay.

No, I could, if I had, if because of my public, if you just simply said we disagree with it, they, but let me explain before we, the Revoice, he has his PhD from that school in some capacity until sometime around, now that doesn't mean, there's a lot of different.

Can you list everybody that spoke there?

Well, there was a lot of people that spoke there but let me give you the top speakers. Wesley Hill was a keynote, he has, he also, Nate Collins is.

Why the Revoice Message Resonates With Some Roman Catholics

Well, you know, that actually makes sense because I have in my, in my life as a Christian since the 1980s and I have, as you know, organized many public moderated theological debates, the majority with Dr. James R. White, our mutual friend.

But when I have had times of conversation apart from the debate, like over lunch with some of the Roman Catholics involved with these events, even the most conservative of Roman Catholics that I have met, and I'm not saying that they all do, I guess they're not monolithic as much as many Catholics claim that there are monolithic or obviously not, but there are many conservative Roman Catholics, and I mean even conservative Roman Catholics, who have this notion that the church by and large promotes that there is nothing wrong with being a homosexual or nothing sinful at least as long as you're chaste.

And look, for instance, they will ordain a man who confesses, yes, I am a homosexual, but I take a vow of chastity. They don't seem to think that there is anything seriously wrong in terms of sin in that condition.

Some would call it a disorder of sorts, but it seems to have a neutral position in regard to sin, but this is certainly not the case.

In reality. Am I right? Absolutely. I believe that towards this, and therefore, as is, it is in and of itself is disorder. Unnatural. Unnatural, as Romans 1 says, needs to be repented of and turned at as well, because they would agree, not, again, when you say they, as you've already said, they don't all agree within a whole new dictionary where they take this.

He claims that what is disordered, the attraction towards another man, unless it's thick orientation, that he, and that in and of itself is disorder. Well, that doesn't seem to.

Make sense, because obviously, unless I'm misunderstanding you, even the most robust of heterosexuals can recognize when another man is stunningly handsome, and, wow, you have a handsome son there, or whatever.

Cindy, your husband is surely a handsome man. We have eyes, we can recognize when somebody's handsome. What is different about what he is saying,.

If it has nothing to do with sexual attraction? Well, he doesn't get real descriptive of whether the looks or that what was used were examples of Ruth. Now, we're not saying that any of these individuals, necessarily.

These are examples of someone who has expressed the love and the intimacy. Friendship can be fulfilled in these type of relationships. So, Ruth and Naomi were pointed and intimate, that what has disordered with is that they're impressed.

They're fully new terminology.

Sexual Sin, Identity, and the Problem With “Alcoholic Christian” Language

Well, we have to go to our first break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. ChrisArnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, unless you are asking about a personal and private matter, and perhaps you even disagree with something that we're saying today.

You can feel free to voice your opinion. Perhaps you are yourself struggling with this sin known as homosexuality, and you'd like to remain anonymous. Well, feel free to write in. ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Don't go away. We will be right back with Tom Buck in our examination of the Revoice Conference, right after these messages from our sponsors. Hi, I'm Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, here to tell you about an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a Christian perspective.

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Forward slash iron sharpens today. James White here, co-founder of Alpha Omega Ministries,.

And occasional guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. I'm so delighted that my friend Chris Arnson will be heading down to Atlanta for the next G3 conference from January 17th to the 19th, 2019, where I'll be joining a very impressive lineup of speakers on the theme, A Biblical Understanding of Missions.

Speakers include John Piper, Steve Lawson, Vody Balkam, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe, Phil Johnson, Josh Bice, yours truly, and many more. I hope you all join Chris and me for this phenomenal event. For more details, go to g3conference .com.

That's.

G3conference .com. Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries,.

Teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries. I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the Doctor of Ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles. I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in midtown Manhattan. You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc .nyc. They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit New Covenant Church, NYC. Again, their information can be found at www .ncc .nyc.

Have a great day.

Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword. Dan also has a master's degree in theology. Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states. He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country.

Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer. He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy, and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more, and in approximately 10 different states.

In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history. In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the Law Journal. If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state, I recommend that you call Dan.

Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win. Dan Badafuco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878. Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at.

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We are now back with our conversation with Tom Buck, pastor of First Baptist Church of Lindale, Texas. We are discussing the REVOICE conference. We are examining and critiquing this conference, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

One thing that is puzzling to me, Pastor Tom, is that if those in the REVOICE conference view homosexuality as sin, we know they want to identify themselves that way as a very critical part of the essence of who they are.

It seems odd to me because you don't have heterosexual Christian men saying, I am an adulterer and heart Christian, or I'm a lustful Christian. You don't have that kind of a thing typically going on, and at least in the way that heterosexual Christian men are identifying themselves.

Why do they find a need to identify themselves as in this category of homosexual or gay?

Well, if I can, I'll try to be as fair as I can to what I believe they would try, that they would argue, and that is, I would say that they have this, they've always had this ongoing, share their story that they've never known any many of them.

Therefore, similar to the way someone would use the terminology, recovering alcoholic, I will always be an alcoholic. And by the way, just to.

Chime in here for a minute, I am a former drunk, but I do not believe in calling myself a Christian alcoholic. I just wanted to let you know my opinion on that. I was under church discipline years ago.

I went to a Christian addiction recovery ministry in Boone, North Carolina that I sing praises about every time I get the chance. I don't mean in an idolatrous way, but I am very aggressively and happily spread the word about Hebron Colony Ministries in Boone, North Carolina, but I don't believe in identifying myself as an alcoholic Christian, as if I have to carry that stigma with me as a part of my identity.

Although I do believe that I have to take precautions that other Christians might not need to take. I don't have that liberty anymore to drink socially and casually. And in my opinion, I think that that would be putting God to the test.

I think that would be just giving the appearance of evil and even being too much of a temptation to myself. But at the same time, I don't believe in that kind of way of describing myself, because that is something that I have been delivered out of.

It is behind me. I don't dabble in it anymore. At this point in my life, I'm not even tempted by it, but that's just my two cents about that whole.

Alcoholic identity. I completely agree with you. For many years, he gives the list. Prior to that, it should include eavesdrunkers. And he says in verse 11, you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit.

That is what you once were. You no longer are that. So we don't find anywhere in Scripture with one another, according to our... There may be a myriad of reasons. The second thing that as a... This is in the church.

This is used throughout all of their life so that they can begin to be valued by the church properly for the sacrifice that they're making... That seems to be a prideful issue there. I mean,.

Am I supposed to constantly remind people of how I gave up drinking? I mean, well, I don't even understand that. Don't they see how pride is involved in that?

Well, it certainly may be for some that of celibacy...

Same-Sex Attraction, Temptation, and the Nature of Christian Identity

We have Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, who says, number one, I am wondering what you think about someone who could believe they are truly born again and filled with the Holy Spirit of God and yet have an ongoing, never-ending battle with same-sex attraction.

It doesn't seem to be a biblical category of Christianity to me. The second thing is, the only good thing I can see coming out of people identifying themselves that way is that it is a warning to others around them that they may not want to share a locker room or have their sons going camping with a certain Christian who has this attraction, etc.

I hope I don't sound too harsh, but I am just being totally transparent and honest when I ask these.

Questions. I think one of the things, and I do understand many in many church contexts, because there are, I experience churches and pastors, inappropriate joking. I do believe the church should be a safe place for people to struggle with what they...

That is clear, that if we live according to our sinful desires, the fleshly you will live and mortify. We better be killing one who does... Well, I don't want to sound insensitive to people battling this issue.

It's something that I've never battled, but it seems that the scriptures describe the burning of one's heart for another of the same sex as a part of a curse. It's a part of condemnation of God. It's hard for me to imagine that the Lord would leave a regenerate person in a perpetual state.

I mean, you're talking about possibly decades of their hearts burning for another man. It just seems foreign to my understanding of what the scriptures describe when they're talking about the sin. As you said, you already read the classic text about some of you once were these things.

So, I mean, I'm not a theologian, I'm not a scholar, but it just seems to me, I think that Christians in the 21st century are too willing to allow for a category of people to exist amongst us, recognized as brothers and sisters in Christ, that the Bible doesn't seem to address.

Do you follow what I'm saying? And again, I don't want to be harsh. I'm just speaking honestly about the way that I've read the scriptures and the way that it seems to be portrayed in the scriptures, this particular sin, because of the fact that it's unnatural.

And at the risk of sounding grotesque, I know that some people will say I'm comparing apples and oranges, but would we say the same thing about a very bizarre and evil person who was involved in bestiality before they were saved, or are we going to say that they are going to be struggling with this kind of urge for the rest of their lives, possibly?

It seems unreal to me as far as what the Bible has to say. But if you could respond to what I said, because maybe you.

Want to educate me on this. Well, I'm not trying to create a new category or educate you. I'm in agreement with you. How we teach and redefine what we begin to use will begin to give new definition. Well, I didn't even mean never have a thought again, but a constant perpetual burning in the heart.

Yep, I agree with you. I do not believe that someone could have that. In fact, there's.

Another thing I wanted to ask you about that, but we have to go to our elongated break right now. This is the break that's longer than most in the show because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us an elongated break between our two major segments of the show because they air their own commercials and public service announcements during this time.

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James White here, co-founder of Alpha and Omega Ministries and occasional guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. I'm so delighted that my friend Chris Arnson will be heading down to Atlanta for the next G3 Conference from January 17th to the 19th, 2019, where I'll be joining a very impressive lineup of speakers on the theme, A Biblical Understanding of Missions.

Speakers include John Piper, Steve Lawson, Vodie Balcom, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe, Phil Johnson, Josh Weiss, yours truly, and many more. I hope you all join Chris and me for this phenomenal event. For more details, go to G3Conference .com.

That's G3Conference .com.

Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here. I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco. Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently, he wrote a book titled Consider the Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword. Dan also has a master's degree in theology.

Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states. He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer. He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy, and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more, and in approximately 10 different states.

In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history. In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the Law Journal. If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state, I recommend that you call Dan.

Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win. Dan Badafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878. Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. My name is Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion.

Ministries as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries. I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the Doctor of Ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles. I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in Midtown Manhattan. You can find their service times and location on their website which is www .ncc .nyc. They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit New Covenant Church, NYC. Again, their information can.

Be found at www .ncc .nyc. Have a great day. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co-host with Chris.

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