August 8, 2018 Show with Tom Buck on “The Revoice Conference Examined & Critiqued”

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August 9, 2018

August 8, 2018: TOM BUCK, senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Lindale, Texas, who will address: “The REVOICE Conference Examined & Critiqued”

00:01: Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown
00:08: Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,
00:16: Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
00:23: Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.
00:32: Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
00:46: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
00:57: Now here's our host, Chris Arnton. Good afternoon,
01:04: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.
01:13: This is Chris Arnton, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday. On this eighth day of August 2018,
01:22: I'm delighted to have back on the program a returning guest today, a guest who is a mutual friend of Dr.
01:30: James R. White and mine, Pastor Tom Buck. He is senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Lindale, Texas, and today we are going to be addressing the very controversial
01:43: REVOICE conference. This conference will be examined and critiqued today by our guest, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Tom Buck.
01:56: It's great to be here, thank you, Chris. I appreciate the opportunity to be with you today and appreciate your program that's so helpful to so many
02:03: Christians. I really appreciate that, and why don't we first of all get an idea of what
02:11: First Baptist Church of Lindale, Texas, is all about? Well, I've been here for a little over 12 years as the senior pastor, and the church has been around for well over 125 years.
02:26: We're east of Dallas, and we have a wonderful area out here in east
02:32: Texas, and we're a wonderful ministry, thankful for what the Lord has given us an opportunity to minister to this area.
02:38: It's a Southern Baptist church, and we are along the lines, we're theologically reformed in our soteriology specifically, but also probably closely aligned with founders of Tom Askle.
02:56: I'm sure you're familiar with Tom Askle and the Founders Movement. Oh yeah, Tom's a good friend, and I've interviewed him many times. So that's pretty much the doctrinal understanding of our church, and we're just thankful to be able to be here and minister to this community.
03:13: Now, you were on the program once before, if my memory serves me correctly, you were on the program when
03:21: I was manning an exhibitors booth at the G3 conference, correct? That is correct. So this is your first two -hour interview with us.
03:30: I would like you to do what we normally do only with first -time guests, but I don't think we did this when you were a guest at the
03:39: G3 conference because it was an abbreviated interview. But even if we did do this, it can't hurt to do it again.
03:46: I'd love for you to give a summary of your own salvation testimony. Absolutely, I'd be glad to do that.
03:53: I grew up in a Christian home. I was born in East Tennessee, and it was a
04:03: Southern Baptist church, and it was during a time when there was a lot of liberalism going on within the
04:09: Southern Baptist Convention. My church in East Tennessee was one of those that had a liberal pastor, and he didn't believe in the miracles of scripture, did not believe in any supernatural things whatsoever, didn't believe also in inerrancy.
04:29: But my family was strongly committed to the gospel, and my parents shared the gospel with me.
04:38: I came to know the Lord at a young age. I was thankful that we had a
04:46: Christian radio station, and I'm so thankful for Christian radio because if it weren't for that,
04:52: I would not have had any sound, solid biblical teaching growing up. I would listen to WNBI out of Chattanooga, Tennessee, and listen to the preaching of the word there.
05:04: Much of my understanding of the Bible itself came from listening to those men preach the word on WNBI.
05:16: So as I grew up and began to see the difference between those who handled the word of God accurately and carefully, approved workmen unashamed of how they handled the word of God, in comparison to what
05:30: I was hearing out of a liberal pulpit and not a strong commitment at all to the word of God, I saw the stark difference between the two.
05:41: And as I grew in faith in the Lord, I had the desire to go and to be trained in the word of God.
05:50: I had the desire to begin to teach the word of God just as I heard those men teaching the word and preaching the word.
05:58: And as a young man wanted to discover where they went to school, and the two places they went to most of the guys
06:04: I heard was Moody Bible Institute, which would obviously be clear from the fact that it was a
06:10: Moody radio station, and then Dallas Theological Seminary. So that was the path that I took, thankful for that.
06:20: When I went to Moody, that's where I came to understand the doctrines of grace and understand a full, sound theological view of the word of God, and embraced
06:33: Reformed theology there at Moody, and then continued on to DTS.
06:39: Of course, both of those schools were not completely Reformed in the sense of every single aspect of Calvinism, but I came to embrace that later on as well.
06:52: So I've had a rich history of strong, solid theological training in God's word by places other than the local church initially, but thankful to God that he called me in my life to serve in the local church and preach and teach the word of God to folks that can come to understand at a much earlier age than I did what it means to honor
07:18: God's word fully and completely. So I'm thankful for that. Well, praise God. And I do know, personally, some men that came out of Moody, also full -fledged
07:28: Calvinists, even though the professors they had that echoed that theology were in a minority, at least when they went, but the school was still used by our sovereign
07:43: God to bring them to those conclusions. And I can remember when I was working part -time for Calvary Press, who published
07:53: James White's book, The Potter's Freedom, a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's book,
08:01: Chosen But Free, the anti -Calvinist book that Norman Geisler wrote. And I remember one of my tasks at Calvary Press was to get notable individuals to write endorsements for the books they published.
08:16: And Erwin Lutzer, now the pastor emeritus of the Moody Church there in Chicago, Illinois, he could not wait to write an endorsement for James's book.
08:28: He loved the manuscript, was thrilled with it, and was very upset at Norman Geisler for writing his book.
08:36: So among the many prominent figures that endorsed The Potter's Freedom, Erwin Lutzer stands out among them.
08:44: In fact, this is a reminder to me that I've got to get a hold of Erwin to interview him, because in all the years
08:49: I've been doing this show, I have never interviewed Erwin. I remember I tried a couple of times and our schedules didn't match, but I've got to get on the phone, perhaps even tonight, to get
08:59: Erwin Lutzer on the program. Well, Dr. Lutzer made a huge impact on my life, because while I was a student at Moody, I attended
09:07: Moody Church and sat under Dr. Lutzer's ministry. And I grew more, probably during that period of time, than any other, you know, compressed period of time in my
09:20: Christian life, sitting under his preaching, exposition of the Word of God, sound theology.
09:26: And he had as much, if not maybe more, impact on me than some of my seminary professors, or college professors, when
09:34: I was going to Moody. So, very thankful for his ministry. Great. Well, I'm going to give our email address out.
09:40: If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,
09:46: C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, at least, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside the
09:55: USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
10:01: And since Pastor Tom is a pastor, we will allow questions of a personal, private, intimate background that have a pastoral need to them.
10:15: So, I can understand if anybody wants to remain anonymous, that's fine. But if it's just a general question about our topic, then please at least give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.
10:26: Well, tell us about the genesis of the
10:32: REVOICE conference that recently took place. Tell us about who were the prominent figures who launched this conference and why they launched it.
10:48: And even tell us something about why they called it REVOICE. Okay.
10:55: I'd be glad to do that. Let me give a little bit of a context to REVOICE and the whole discussion of the label that's come about as gay
11:05: Christian, which, you know, just smacks as oxymoronic at face value.
11:13: But a little over five years ago, Matthew Vines started talking about these words, gay
11:20: Christianity, published a book four years ago from those talks that he gave.
11:25: And essentially his argument was that the Bible never condemns same -sex relationships that are monogamous, committed, loving relationships.
11:37: He argued that Sodom and Gomorrah wasn't about homosexuality, but about a lack of hospitality, the presence of violence in the treatment of visitors.
11:47: He also claimed that Romans 1 isn't talking about an intimate and committed homosexual relationship, but heterosexuals, he argued, who began to become excessive in their sexual desires and therefore turned to same -sex relationships to feed those sinful desires.
12:07: Now, most people probably know the argument of Vines that they're familiar at all with this, others who have, you know, argumentation like that.
12:15: He himself claims to be a chaste homosexual and a born -again believer at the same time, correct?
12:23: Well, yes, except he desires and thinks it's fine for him to marry another man, as long as it's in a monogamous relationship.
12:32: Yes, he says you should be chaste until, quote -unquote, marriage. And Dr. James White has extensively answered this.
12:40: You know, if it's the first time people have even heard about Matthew Vines, they can go to his website, and he treated it quite thoroughly,
12:47: Dr. White did. But the vast majority of Christians who heard Matthew Vines' arguments, they recognize that it's riddled with error, that they don't fall for his deceptive tactics, the twisting of scripture that he does.
13:04: Those, even within my own church, when I decided to address what
13:09: Matthew Vines was teaching, many of them just said, well, this is clearly wacky liberal stuff.
13:16: Well, that has become, what Matthew Vines promotes has come to be known as what's called
13:22: Side A of this argument. And that Side A of the argument, again, is that people can, two men or two women, two homosexuals can be chaste before marriage, but enter into a marriage relationship, and as long as they're in a monogamous relationship, you can be gay and be
13:45: Christian. That's Side A. It may be a little, there might be a broader category in Side A, but you can practice homosexuality and be a
13:54: Christian, is Side A. Revoice is what is being called
13:59: Side B of this argument, and they are also embracing the label of gay
14:10: Christian, lesbian Christian, gay Christian, bisexual Christian, and so forth and so on.
14:16: But they are saying that they want to submit themselves, this is pretty much their language, to the historical
14:26: Christian ethic of sexuality. So they would say, Revoice is claiming that marriage is reserved for one man, one woman, and that sex is to only take place in marriage, and therefore they would say that all sexual activity, same -sex activity, is forbidden, and therefore they are to live celibate.
14:57: However, they continue to embrace the title of gay
15:03: Christian, and they're trying to argue how a person is a
15:09: Christian, identifies him or herself as a gay Christian, and lives out submitting themselves to this sexual ethic.
15:17: But it's brought a lot of problems, and that's what we'll talk about today. Yes, well,
15:23: I'm assuming that they are also getting a lot of negative feedback from those like Matthew Vines, who think that they are just holding back the rest of those who identify themselves as homosexuals from having more liberty and freedom and having the same opportunities in marriage and every other aspect of life that the heterosexuals have.
15:50: Am I right on that? Are they taking heat from the other side, as well as those that are correctly rebuking them from the biblical inerrancy side, the,
16:02: I would call the historical and biblical Christian side?
16:09: So I'm assuming that they are taking heat from both sides now. From what
16:14: I understand that they are, what I've read of Matthew Vines, he's, I would say, thankful, in his words, would probably be thankful that they are embracing and making progress in his mindset towards the acceptance of someone being a gay
16:31: Christian. But at the same time, he would not believe, he believes that they are putting restrictions, unnecessary restrictions, unhealthy, he would probably call them,
16:42: I've heard him say restrictions, because they're limiting, going further than he would say the
16:48: Bible would go. So yeah, he certainly disagrees with them openly and publicly, but at the same time, there are some similarities that they share in their language and also some of their hopes of how the church will begin to weaken its position on the issue of homosexuality.
17:06: Now, I don't know how monolithic this group is that gathered at Revoice and who has the notion that there are gay
17:17: Christians but they must be chased or married to an opposite gender.
17:24: But do they view their condition itself, do they view their desires as either a disorder or, more accurately, sin?
17:36: Well, that's where it gets really sticky, because when you begin to listen to them speak or even engage them in conversation, you know,
17:49: I've done this with some of the individuals, but they're not very open to, or they're not going to appear to be very open about dialogue.
17:59: Revoice itself, the conference, was pretty much excluded anyone who was not sympathetic to what they were dealing with.
18:08: If someone signed up for the conference and they did a research on them through social media, discovered that there was opposition to their view, they refunded their money and didn't allow them to come.
18:20: Oh, so you couldn't even be in the audience? No. No. Because of my public response that I've had that goes all the way back since May, if I had signed up, and I know others who did sign up, who had expressed concern about this, even if it wasn't vitriolic, if you just simply said, we disagree with this, we challenge this, they refunded your money and said that they wanted this to be a safe place for those who were in the
18:49: LGBT, quote -unquote, community to come. So I think it's good for us to, we'll need to parse out some of these things so that people can understand how that they view their orientation, what they view is disordered about their orientation.
19:09: But let me explain a couple of things that should cause every Christian to wake up and take notice about this new theological movement.
19:16: And before we launch into it, and that is that it involves those within the Reformed camp.
19:22: The Revoice Conference was, it was founded by Nate Collins. He has his
19:28: PhD from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. He was associated with that school in some capacity until sometime around April of this year.
19:39: We're really not, no one's heard or been able to discover what transpired in the change there.
19:46: But he taught classes there. We're not sure to what extent, but in his own bio, he says that he taught
19:53: New Testament interpretation at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.
19:59: Now, the seminary doesn't embrace this teaching, obviously, and Al Mohler has written a fantastic article entitled
20:06: Torn Between Two Cultures recently about this on Revoice. But it is, there's a lot of quote -unquote
20:13: Reformed individuals involved. His entire ministry is, Nate Collins along with Preston Sprinkle, is called the
20:21: Center for Faith, Sexuality, and Gender. And they're endorsed by Francis Chan, who is a professed
20:34: Reformed, self -proclaimed Reformed individual. Matt Chandler endorses them as well.
20:40: Their endorsements are on their website. Now, that doesn't mean that either of those necessarily agree with or endorse this conference itself, but it is concerning that they have not withdrawn their endorsements of Nate Collins' ministry, which launched this conference.
21:00: And then on top of that, the URLC, even though they have denounced, which is the branch, the
21:07: Ethics, Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention, they've denounced, several of them have, this conference.
21:15: There is at least one member of the URLC that actually endorsed the conference. So there's a lot of differing opinions, even within the
21:25: Reformed community, about this Revoice. And that's one of the things, I think, that makes it at least dangerous enough that we need to be taking notice of this new theological movement.
21:37: Can you list everybody that spoke there? Well, there was a lot of people that spoke there, but let me give you the top speakers.
21:45: Wesley Hill was the keynote speaker. He also claims to be
21:51: Reformed. He has written extensively on what's called spiritual friendships.
21:58: We'll hopefully delve into that a little bit and what that means. But he wrote a book called
22:05: Washington Waiting, I think that's the name of the book, several years ago. And I know that,
22:11: I'm pretty sure that he was encouraged by John Piper to write the book. Of course, John Piper would not endorse this, but Wesley has evolved a lot in the last few years on this.
22:19: Nate Collins, as I just spoke about, just referenced. Eve, I believe her last name is pronounced
22:28: Tushnet. She is Roman Catholic, and so she spoke as well as Ron Belgal, and both of them are
22:39: Roman Catholic. So there is a blending here of Roman Catholicism along with evangelical
22:46: Christians within this conference. Well, you know, that actually makes sense, because I have, in my life as a
22:57: Christian since the 1980s, and I have, as you know, organized many public -moderated theological debates, the majority with Dr.
23:07: James R. White, our mutual friend. But when I have had times of conversation apart from the debate, like over lunch, with some of the
23:19: Roman Catholics involved with these events, even the most conservative of Roman Catholics that I have met, and I'm not saying that they all do, because they're not monolithic as much as many
23:33: Catholics claim that they're a monolith, that they're obviously not. But there are many conservative
23:39: Roman Catholics, and I mean even conservative Roman Catholics, who have this notion that the
23:47: Church by and large promotes that there is nothing wrong with being a homosexual, or nothing sinful at least, as long as you're chaste.
23:57: And look, for instance, they will ordain a man who confesses, yes,
24:03: I am a homosexual, but I take a vow of chastity. They don't seem to think that there is anything seriously wrong in terms of sin in that condition.
24:15: Some would call it a disorder of sorts. But it seems to have a neutral position in regard to sin, but this is certainly not the case in reality.
24:28: Am I right? Absolutely, you're right that that's not the case in reality, because I believe that homosexuality is a disordered desire, and that the desire in and of itself towards the same sex goes against the very creation, or the way that God created us and designed us.
24:55: And therefore, if it had not, if the fall had not occurred, if sin had not entered the world, there would be no desire for one same -sex desire within this world.
25:07: That is a result of the fall, as is every perversion of sexuality.
25:16: But the difference between one who is heterosexual and desires, for example, if I have a desire towards another woman other than my wife, then it is certainly sin for me to lust, as Christ says in Matthew 5.
25:39: But it's not the desire itself that is sinful. It is the excess of that desire being directed towards one other than my spouse.
25:50: But with homosexuality, the desire even in and of itself is disordered and is sinful.
25:58: Unnatural. Unnatural, as Romans 1 says. Needs to be repented of and turned from and sought to be mortified by the grace of God.
26:07: But they do have a twist upon that as well, because they would agree, not, again, when you say they, as you've already said, they don't all agree within revoice the same.
26:20: But let's stay with Nate Collins, because he's the founder of this. Nate Collins does believe that the desire for a man, for a man to desire to have sex with another man, that that is sinful.
26:36: Just the desire itself. But he has changed the language and the terminology.
26:46: I mean, you have to have a whole new dictionary and vocabulary to follow where they take this.
26:54: He claims that what is disordered, ultimately in this that could be redeemed, is a disordered understanding of friendship.
27:05: And so he claims that the attraction that he has, the attraction towards another man, is not sinful unless it goes towards the sexual realm.
27:17: He believes that he possesses what would be, he calls it an aesthetic orientation, that he finds beauty within another man, and that in and of itself is not sinful.
27:35: Only if he desires another man sexually, but to desire another man in an aesthetic orientation where that I am attracted to the beauty of another man, that that orientation in and of itself is not sinful.
27:49: Well, that doesn't seem to make sense, because obviously, unless I'm misunderstanding you, even the most robust of heterosexuals can recognize when another man is stunningly handsome, and wow, you have a handsome son there, or whatever.
28:10: Cindy, your husband is surely a handsome man. I mean, we have eyes, we can recognize when somebody's handsome.
28:17: What is different about what he is saying, if it has nothing to do with sexual attraction? Well, he doesn't get real descriptive in what that means, of whether he finds, is he finding beauty in the build of a man?
28:31: I don't know. Is he finding beauty in the looks? Or, but we do know this, we do know that they, at the conference, that what was used were examples of Ruth and Naomi.
28:44: Now, they were not saying that any of these individuals necessarily had same -sex attraction, they weren't assigning that to them.
28:50: But they were saying, these are examples of how someone who has same -sex attraction, as a
28:55: Christian, could express the love and the intimacy that is not sexual, but friendship -oriented.
29:05: And that we can find, and that they can be fulfilled in these type of relationships.
29:11: So, Ruth and Naomi were pointed out, David and Jonathan were pointed out, Jesus and the
29:17: Apostle John were pointed out, as being examples of deep, intimate relationships with people of the same sex.
29:26: And that what has got, what has been disordered within those who have same -sex attraction, is that they're mistaking the wonderful depth and beauty of attraction that they have for the friendship with someone of the same sex, and transferring that wrongly into some type of a sexual expression, erotic expression.
29:48: It's very, very, it's very weird in the whole process of how they work all of this out.
29:54: But I think that what they're trying to do, and this is really the genesis of it, how can we help a same -sex attracted person in our church, particularly young people, who are struggling, trying to understand how they deal with this attraction that they have, and giving them means by which to express the attraction that they have towards the same sex, but not in a sinful way.
30:25: So, they are calling it spiritual friendships that need to be developed. A totally new terminology that we're beginning to wade into at this point.
30:34: Well, we have to go to our first break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.
30:42: chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, unless you are asking about a personal and private matter.
30:50: And perhaps you even disagree with something that we're saying today, you can feel free to voice your opinion.
30:56: Perhaps you are yourself struggling with this sin known as homosexuality, and you'd like to remain anonymous.
31:03: Well, feel free to write in. chrisarnson at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.
31:11: Don't go away, we will be right back with Tom Buck in our examination of the REVOICE conference, right after these messages from our sponsors.
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32:57: I'm so delighted that my friend Chris Arnzen will be heading down to Atlanta for the next G3 Conference from January 17th to the 19th, 2019, where I'll be joining a very impressive lineup of speakers on the theme,
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38:15: Friday the 24th of August. Very serious, very delicate, very complicated open heart surgery.
38:23: More delicate and complicated than your average open heart surgery. So please pray that the great physician himself,
38:31: Jesus Christ, will raise up Mike Gaydosh out of that hospital bed when this is all over and he will be a stronger and healthier man than he has been in years.
38:43: A stronger and healthier man, not only physically but spiritually as well, as a result of this trial that he is going through.
38:52: Mike Gaydosh gave me permission to make these prayer requests if you're wondering and so please join me in prayer for him.
38:59: We are now back with our conversation with Tom Buck, pastor of First Baptist Church of Lindale, Texas.
39:07: We are discussing the REVOICE conference. We are examining and critiquing this conference.
39:14: And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com chrisarnsen at gmail .com.
39:21: One thing that is puzzling to me, Pastor Tom, is that if those in the
39:29: REVOICE conference view homosexuality as sin, we know they're correct on that, why do they want to identify themselves that way as a very a very critical part of the essence of who they are?
39:47: It seems odd to me because you don't have heterosexual Christian men saying,
39:53: I am an adulterer and heart Christian, or I'm a lustful
40:00: Christian. You don't have that kind of a thing typically going on and at least in the way that heterosexual
40:07: Christian men are identifying themselves. Why do they find a need to identify themselves as in this category of homosexual or gay?
40:19: Well, if I can, I'll try to be as fair as I can to what I believe they would try that they would argue and that is they would say that they have this, they've always had this ongoing struggle, almost everyone that I've heard that has given a testimony that's connected with REVOICE, they share their story that they've never known anything but the desire for same -sex attraction, that many of them pray that this attraction would be taken away and it never was, and therefore they believe that it's important for them to identify with that struggle, similar to the way someone would use the terminology that they're a recovering alcoholic, so they would say
41:13: I'm an alcoholic, like someone would say I'm an alcoholic, I will always be an alcoholic, and so identifying myself with that same struggle is not an unusual thing.
41:24: And by the way, just to chime in here for a minute, I am a former drunk, but I do not believe in calling myself a
41:32: Christian alcoholic. I just wanted to let you know my opinion on that. I was under church discipline years ago,
41:39: I went to a Christian addiction recovery ministry in Boone, North Carolina that I sing praises about every time
41:47: I get the chance, I don't mean in an idolatrous way, but I am very aggressively and spread the word about Hebron Colony Ministries in Boone, North Carolina, but I don't believe in identifying myself as an alcoholic
42:02: Christian, as if I have to carry that stigma with me as a part of my identity, although I do believe that I have to take precautions that other
42:14: Christians might not need to take. I don't have that liberty anymore to drink socially and casually, in my opinion.
42:22: I think that that would be putting God to the test, I think that would be just giving the appearance of evil and even being too much of a temptation to myself.
42:32: But at the same time, I don't believe in that kind of way of describing myself, because that is something that I have been delivered out of, it is behind me,
42:44: I don't dabble in it anymore. At this point in my life, I'm not even tempted by it, but that's just my two cents about that whole alcoholic identity.
42:55: I completely agree with you. For many years I have taught specifically on that, that our identity, we gain that as a
43:04: Christian from how Scripture speaks about us. And so this terminology, you know, for example, once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic, that is not how the
43:12: Bible talks about us. I think it's actually a violation to call someone a gay
43:18: Christian or any other sin that you want to label a sin struggle that you may deal with off and on throughout your
43:26: Christian life. You look in 1 Corinthians chapter 6, Paul's quite clear there, how he describes the change that's taken place.
43:39: He says that these things you once were, 1
43:44: Corinthians 6, 11, and he gives the list prior to that, it includes homosexuality, adulterers, thieves, drunkards, and he says in verse 11, and such were some of you, but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the
43:59: Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. That is what you once were, you no longer are that.
44:07: So we don't find anywhere in Scripture that we identify ourselves, label ourselves, with one another according to our sin struggles.
44:17: But that is exactly the choice that is being made by this group with Revoice and others who like to label themselves as gay
44:28: Christians. There may be a myriad of reasons, but that's one of the reasons that they would say.
44:34: The second thing that seems to be self -evident is they want to be identified as, they feel it's necessary to identify themselves as a, this is their language, sexual minority in the church.
44:48: This is used throughout all of their language as a sexual minority, so that they can begin to be valued by the church properly for the sacrifice that they're making regarding their celibacy.
45:03: That seems to be a prideful issue there. Am I supposed to constantly remind people of how
45:11: I gave up drinking? I mean, I don't even understand that. Don't they see how pride is involved in that?
45:18: Well, it certainly may be for some. I think for others, or maybe it is for all. Probably it is for all to some degree or another, whether they realize it or not.
45:27: But I think where they're coming at it from, wrong thinking I believe, is that they believe that there has been an oppression, these are the language they use, of the sexual minority of LGBT, and that there needs to be a recognition of these brothers and sisters in Christ that have this struggle, and they need to be seen as valuable in the church, and that celibacy is as valuable as marriage.
46:03: And therefore, we, Nate Collins said that there is an idolatry of marriage in the church.
46:10: Now I want to address that a little bit when we get into one of the sermons that he had. But there is a clear structure of language that they're using throughout this to try to elevate their struggle with sin so that it becomes a predominant issue in the church, so people understand what individuals are going through the struggle with same -sex attraction.
46:34: We have Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, who says,
46:41: Number one, I am wondering what you think about someone who could believe they are truly born again and filled with the
46:51: Holy Spirit of God, and yet have an ongoing, never -ending battle with same -sex attraction.
46:57: It doesn't seem to be a biblical category of Christianity to me. The second thing is, the only good thing
47:05: I can see coming out of people identifying themselves that way is that it is a warning to others around them that they may not want to share a locker room or have their sons going camping with a certain
47:20: Christian who has this attraction, etc. I hope I don't sound too harsh, but I am just being totally transparent and honest when
47:27: I ask these questions. Let's deal with the first question.
47:34: I think one of the things that we must be doing as a church, as churches, is there does need to be a change,
47:49: I believe, from what I experienced growing up, and I do understand how difficult it's been for many of those who struggle with homosexuality in many church contexts, because I experienced churches and pastors who mocked homosexuals rather than extending the grace of the gospel, inappropriate joking at the expense of homosexuals, even among Christians.
48:16: I do believe the church should be a safe place for sinners to openly confess and repent of their sin.
48:25: I know Christians who are genuine believers who struggle with other types of sin issues throughout their
48:36: Christian life. What they do is, in Romans 8 -12, it says, so them brothers we are debtors not to the flesh to live according to the flesh for if you live according to the flesh you will die.
48:50: So that is clear that if we live according to our sinful desires, the fleshly desires, whether that be homosexual or otherwise, it leads to death.
49:00: But if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. So the
49:06: Christian is to be constantly battling against sin and mortifying sin.
49:13: As John Owen said, we better be killing sin or sin will be killing you. So I don't know that I could go so far to say that someone who struggles intermittently in their
49:27: Christian life with same -sex attraction but continues to turn from those desires, repent of those desires, seek to mortify those desires by the grace of God, could not be considered a believer.
49:42: In fact, one who does continue to battle against sin, deny sin, mortify sin, and not identify themselves in any way towards sin is exactly what a true
49:54: Christian does do. You may have some thoughts on that first question, Chris, as well. Well, I don't want to sound insensitive to people battling this issue.
50:08: It's something that I've never battled. But it seems that the Scriptures describe the burning of one's heart for another of the same sex as a part of a curse.
50:19: It's a part of condemnation of God. And it's hard for me to imagine that the
50:26: Lord would leave a regenerate person in a perpetual state.
50:34: I mean, you're talking about possibly decades of their hearts burning for another man. It just seems foreign to my understanding of what the
50:44: Scriptures describe when they're talking about the sin. As you said, you already read the classic text about some of you once were these things.
50:54: So I mean, I'm not a theologian. I'm not a scholar. But it just seems to me,
51:00: I think that Christians in the 21st century are too willing to allow for a category of people to exist amongst us, recognized as brothers and sisters in Christ that the
51:16: Bible doesn't seem to address. Do you follow what I'm saying? And again, I don't want to be harsh.
51:22: I'm just speaking honestly about the way that I've read the Scriptures and the way that it seems to be portrayed in the
51:30: Scriptures, this particular sin, because of the fact that it's unnatural. And at the risk of sounding grotesque,
51:38: I know that some people will say I'm comparing apples and oranges. But would we say the same thing about a very bizarre and evil person who was involved in bestiality before they were saved?
51:50: Or are we going to say that they are going to be struggling with this kind of urge for the rest of their lives, possibly?
51:55: It seems unreal to me, as far as what the Bible has to say. But if you could respond to what
52:02: I said, because maybe you want to educate me on this. Well, I'm not trying to create a new category or educate you.
52:11: I'm in agreement with you in a very major sense. Part of the problem that I have with the entire
52:18: Revoice movement is that they are not presenting the Gospel as something that can actually transform you.
52:25: They're presenting the Gospel in a very different way than we find in the New Testament. And this is one of the things that is so fearful for me in all of this, because they're wanting to push this towards how we teach our children in the
52:41: Church, our youth in the Church, of how to understand same -sex attraction and redefine it.
52:46: Even the word same -sex attraction is not biblical terminology. But we begin to use language that's not biblical, begin to give new definitions, and even defining sanctification as a totally different process.
52:59: What I'm simply saying is that if someone is truly a genuine
53:05: Christian, they're going to repent, and they're going to turn from not just the behavior, they're going to turn from the desire itself and repent of that.
53:13: I don't know that I can go so far as to say that a person will never, ever have a thought along those lines again.
53:19: Well, I didn't even mean never have a thought again, but a constant, perpetual burning in the heart.
53:25: Yep, I agree with you. I do not believe that someone could have that, that is a genuine
53:31: Christian. They're going to be transformed, and they're going to be mortifying that sin, and they're not going to be living forever with that burning disordered desire controlling their thoughts and their lives.
53:44: In fact, there's another thing I wanted to ask you about that, but we have to go to our elongated break right now.
53:50: This is the break that's longer than most in the show, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1
53:58: FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us an elongated break between our two major segments of the show, because they air their own commercials and public service announcements during this time.
54:06: So please be patient with us as we take this elongated break. Use this time to write down questions for our guest,
54:12: Pastor Tom Buck, and also use this time to write down the information provided by our advertisers, because the more you successfully patronize our advertisers, the longer they are likely to remain our advertisers, and that means that we are more likely going to remain on the air, because we require the funding, the financial backing from these advertisements to broadcast this show daily.
54:38: So please send us an email for tombuck at chrisarnson at gmail .com.
54:44: With any question you may have, please give us your first name, city and state and country of residence. It's chrisarnson at gmail .com, but also write down the information provided by our advertisers.
54:52: Don't go away. God willing, we will be right back after this break. Tired of bop store
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01:01:25: That's it.
01:01:31: One sure way all Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my advertisers.
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01:03:26: I'm so delighted that my friend Chris Arnson will be heading down to Atlanta for the next G3 Conference from January 17th to the 19th, 2019, where I'll be joining a very impressive lineup of speakers on the theme,
01:03:38: A Biblical Understanding of Missions. Speakers include John Piper, Steve Lawson, Bodhi Balcombe, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe, Phil Johnson, Josh Weiss, yours truly, and many more.
01:03:51: I hope you all join Chris and me for this phenomenal event. For more details, go to G3Conference .com.
01:03:58: That's G3Conference .com. Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.
01:04:07: I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco.
01:04:13: Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.
01:04:19: Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently, he wrote a book titled
01:04:24: Consider the Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword.
01:04:30: Dan also has a master's degree in theology. Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states.
01:04:38: He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.
01:04:46: He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy, and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more, and in approximately 10 different states.
01:04:59: In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history. In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the
01:05:09: Law Journal. If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state,
01:05:15: I recommend that you call Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win.
01:05:22: Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878.
01:05:30: Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.
01:05:36: That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. My name is
01:05:45: Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.
01:05:51: I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the Doctor of Ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.
01:05:57: I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.
01:06:03: It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in Midtown Manhattan.
01:06:09: You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc .nyc.
01:06:18: They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.
01:06:24: If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit
01:06:33: New Covenant Church, NYC. Again, their information can be found at www .ncc
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01:08:58: Please remember to mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio. And before we return to our guest
01:09:05: Tom Buck and our discussion on the Revoice Conference, we just have a few special announcements to make.
01:09:12: First of all, very similar to our topic today,
01:09:18: Dr. James R. White and Dr. Michael L. Brown will be teaming up for a debate on Saturday, September 8th at 6 30 p .m.
01:09:29: at the Switzerland Community Church in St. John, Florida, and that is a suburb of Jacksonville, Florida.
01:09:37: The theme will be, Is Homosexuality Consistent with New Testament Obedience?
01:09:44: And their debating opponents during this event are Reverend Patrick Rogers of the
01:09:50: United Church of Christ in Fort Lauderdale, and also the Reverend Dwayne J.
01:09:56: Robinson, who is the pastor of Called Out Believers in Christ Fellowship in Jacksonville, Florida.
01:10:04: This is a free event, and if you want more information, go to SwitzerlandCommunityChurch .org,
01:10:09: SwitzerlandCommunityChurch .org. The night before this debate, Friday, September 7th, 6 30 p .m.
01:10:16: also, Dr. White and Dr. Brown are going to be addressing cross -denominational partnerships for the gospel, and that will be held at the
01:10:28: Jacksonville, Florida campus of Gordon -Conwell Theological Seminary, and if you want more information, you can call the folks again at SwitzerlandCommunityChurch .org,
01:10:38: and all their information is at SwitzerlandCommunityChurch .org. Coming up in November, our friends at the
01:10:46: Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals are having their annual Quakertown Conference on Reformed Theology.
01:10:54: This year, the theme is the glory of the cross, and the speakers include David Garner, Ray Ortland, Richard Phillips, Timothy Gibson, and Carlton Winn.
01:11:04: That's November 9th and the 10th at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Quakertown, Pennsylvania. If you'd like to register, go to AllianceNet .org,
01:11:13: AllianceNet .org, click on events, and scroll down to the Quakertown Conference on Reformed Theology.
01:11:20: That's November 9th and the 10th, and I intend to be there myself with an Iron Sharpens Iron exhibitor's booth.
01:11:26: Then, coming up in January, you've heard James White promoting this on my show and his advertisements.
01:11:32: The G3 Conference is going to be held, God willing, Thursday, January 17th through Saturday, January 19th at the
01:11:39: Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia, a suburb of Atlanta. They are expecting between 4 ,000 and 5 ,000 people there, and I hope my guest
01:11:49: Tom Buck intends to be there because I would love to see him again. The theme is the mission of God, a biblical understanding of missions, and they have quite the roster once again at this conference.
01:12:02: Dr. James R. White will be speaking there, God willing. John Piper, Stephen Lawson, Votie Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad M.
01:12:09: Bayway, and it's pronounced M. Bayway unlike the way Dr. White pronounced it, May Bayway, I think he said.
01:12:16: Tim Challies, Phil Johnson, Josh Bice, the director of the G3 Conference, which stands for Gospel Grace and Glory, Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio, and Stephen J.
01:12:29: Nichols, the president of Reformation Bible College, the college founded by the late Dr. R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, Don and Cindy Curran, and many, many more will be on that roster.
01:12:41: If you'd like to join me at the G3 Conference, where I will be manning an exhibitors booth for Iron Shepherd and Zion Radio for the third year in a row, go to g3conference .com,
01:12:51: g3conference .com, and while you're at it, if you're registering to attend, if you have a ministry or business that you would like to promote in the crowd of nearly 5 ,000 people at this event, then why not register for an exhibitors booth too at g3conference .com,
01:13:08: g3conference .com, and please tell the folks at the G3 Conference and all of these organizations running these events that I'm promoting, tell them all that you heard about these events from Chris Arns and on Iron Shepherd and Zion Radio.
01:13:18: Last but not least, if you love this show, you don't want it to go away, you listen to it every day, you share the free
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01:13:37: Iron Shepherd and Zion Radio on the air. I thank all of you from the depths of my heart who have been doing that, and some of you even monthly and bimonthly have been donating.
01:13:47: I just cannot describe in the English language how much I thank God for you and thank you for your generosity and benevolence, but if you'd like to join them, go to ironshepherdsironradio .com,
01:13:59: click support, then click, click to donate now. If you, just a couple of reminders, please don't ever siphon money away from your regular giving to your local church where you are a member in order to give to Iron Shepherd and Zion Radio.
01:14:11: Never put your family in financial jeopardy by giving to Iron Shepherd and Zion Radio. Those two things are commands of God, providing for your church and home, providing for Iron Shepherd and Zion Radio is not a command of God, obviously, but if you are blessed financially above and beyond your ability to provide for your church and home, then please consider helping us as much as you can and as often as you can financially at ironshepherdsironradio .com,
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01:15:06: That's also the email address where you can send in a question for our guest, Tom Buck, on today's program as we address the
01:15:15: ReVoice conference. That's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.
01:15:23: Only remain anonymous if you have a personal and private question. And Tom Buck, before the break,
01:15:29: I said that I had one more thing I wanted to ask myself before I go to any more listener questions.
01:15:36: The idea that we hear from these folks that you mentioned early on in the program, and I'm assuming that many, if not most of these folks in the
01:15:48: ReVoice conference are young men, but this idea of I tried praying to God to deliver me and it didn't work, doesn't that demonstrate, and again,
01:16:00: I don't mean to be insensitive about this because I've never experienced this kind of plaguing unnatural desire, but at the same time, when do we approach anything in life that way, especially if we're
01:16:14: Reformed and these people claim to be believers in the sovereign grace of God, when do we approach God in that way where I'm going to try praying for deliverance for a while, but then
01:16:24: I'm just going to give up, I'm going to view God as either impotent or uninterested in transforming me, and I'm going to identify myself with the sin that God obviously doesn't want to deliver me from.
01:16:40: I mean, this doesn't seem to be remotely even close to being biblical. Well, I don't think it is.
01:16:46: In fact, I would say that it appears to me that rather than going to the
01:16:52: Bible to acquire their understanding, their terminology, their vocabulary, they look to their experience and then they go back to the
01:17:00: Bible to try to figure out how they can shape the scriptures to fit their experience.
01:17:08: This is consistent with everything that they do, whether it's the defining of aesthetic orientation where they're attracted, the attraction is to beauty, or disordered friendship, or viewing themselves as a sexual minority.
01:17:22: They even use the term queer culture and talk about how they had a whole breakout section regarding this question, what queer treasure, honor, and glory will be brought into the new
01:17:35: Jerusalem. So I think what they're trying to do is they're saying, or they're not trying to do, they're saying that there is some type of redemptive aspect from the queer culture that doesn't need to be discarded but needs to be redeemed and brought into the
01:17:55: Christian experience. So I think they're going even further than just simply saying it didn't work for me.
01:18:01: I think Matthew Vines might say something like that, so I'm just going to indulge in it.
01:18:07: But they're trying to come up with whole new categories that are maybe even grossly more biblical in some ways than what the
01:18:16: Side A arguments are. Let me give you one example. Nate Collins, this is how he describes himself in his own bio.
01:18:23: He says that he is a married, same -sex attracted gay man. So he is married in what he calls a mixed -oriented marriage, and what that means is that he says that he is gay, has attraction, his ongoing normal attraction is towards men, but he is married to a woman, they have three sons, and that this is the only woman in the world that he is attracted to sexually.
01:19:01: So he is attracted to his wife sexually? He says to her, well he's never used the word term sexual, but he says he is attracted to his wife, and that is the only woman in the world that he has ever been attracted to, because one of the questions we had is why don't you call yourself bisexual?
01:19:22: And he said because his main normal orientation is to be attracted towards men. And this is a quote of his, and this is what
01:19:32: I find just absolutely reprehensible, one of the things. He says that he could never fathom being attracted to another woman in the way that he is his wife, but he can fathom being attracted to men in the way he is his wife.
01:19:52: That's totally non -christian to me in thinking. So the whole, the entire way they talk about these things does not start with a biblical framework and interpret their experiences through that.
01:20:05: So they're looking and saying, I struggle with the same sex attraction, it hasn't been taken away, then let's go to the bible and let's see if we can find something that will help me better understand what
01:20:17: I'm experiencing. So they're saying, well look at Ruth and Naomi, look at David and Jonathan. They had a strong attraction towards one another of the same sex.
01:20:28: Not sexually so, but attraction. Therefore, there must be something inherently good within same sex attraction that is not in and of itself sinful.
01:20:40: That's the conclusion they're drawing. So they're reading their experience back into the bible. Yeah, well I mean it seems like they're making more of the term attraction because men do like to be with other men, obviously not in a sexual way, but they like the company of men sometimes more than the company of women.
01:21:02: I mean it's certain things they might not want a woman around, you know, when they're doing whatever they're doing at a sporting event or whatever it is that they like doing with other men that has absolutely nothing to do with sexual attraction.
01:21:17: So I mean could you consider that in a category of attraction? Or I mean you're drawn to desiring the company of other men in a completely
01:21:27: God -honoring way, in a completely non -sexual way, completely non -sinful way.
01:21:34: Even, for instance, we who are Christians very often go to men's bible conferences or men's fellowships and women do the same thing.
01:21:44: There's obviously an interest, especially among those that are organizing the events, and obviously in those attending the events, that they want for this period of time to be with other men because there is a value to that for some specific events and things.
01:22:02: So how is that different from what they're talking about, a non -sexual attraction? What do they mean by that?
01:22:09: Well I wish I knew the full answer to that. They don't seem to at times know what they mean by that when you ask them questions about it and push them further.
01:22:19: For example, let's take Ron McGow, I believe this is
01:22:24: B -L -G -A -U, I'm not exactly sure how to pronounce it so I apologize to him for that, but he has written somewhat on spiritual friendships and one of the things that he discusses is talking about at one point in his life he was attracted towards someone of the same sex and he could imagine himself living with him the rest of his life and not necessarily being married or being active sexually but sharing their life together, sharing memories together.
01:23:03: Some of them even talk about cuddling and things of that nature that are just,
01:23:09: I don't know of any men's retreats that I've been to that those types of things are. Thankfully so, but it's odd to me because the way that they talk about it, the way they talk about intimacy between one man and another,
01:23:29: I have not experienced those attractions or desires with other men and I don't think,
01:23:37: I think that they push the text, the scripture a long way to assign that to David and Jonathan.
01:23:44: I don't think that you can take the kiss that David and Jonathan would have given up one another that's very common in the culture of that day to some type of two men getting together and cuddling by the fire in a non -sexual way but an intimate way.
01:24:03: It's a very, very strange thing to me that sounds like marriage without the sex, if that makes sense.
01:24:08: Right, well yeah, and there are things that have changed from culture to culture over time.
01:24:15: Like for instance, we have in the account of the Last Supper, was not John's head resting on Jesus' chest?
01:24:23: Yes. And I know that some homosexuals have tried to imply something about that which is disgusting and blasphemous, but that is just a demonstration of friendship.
01:24:37: I mean, men hug each other, men put their arms around each other sometimes and they're just expressing some kind of a demonstration of friendship, has nothing to do with sex at all, zero involvement of sex.
01:24:52: So are they trying to make, again, much more of that kind of a thing than is the reality?
01:25:01: I think what they're trying to do at the end of the day is they're trying to fit their experience somewhere into it being normative, and it's not normative.
01:25:11: Even if you take a hundred men and you take two of them or five of them or whatever that may say that they experience same -sex attraction, what they would call intimacy and attraction to the beauty of another man or whatever they might want to call it, it's going to be far different from those that are heterosexual.
01:25:31: I don't think it's because those that are heterosexual are deficient in some way in understanding what it means to have a friendship with another man.
01:25:39: I have some men that I have been very close in ministry with, whom I love dearly, who when
01:25:47: I think of their memories with him and the laboring and ministry together, that there is an extreme connection that I have with him.
01:25:56: I've wept over departing from men that I've served in ministry with, just as Paul wept with the elders at Ephesus.
01:26:07: I've embraced men. I have kissed men on the cheek out of love and Christian love and care for them.
01:26:16: We hold hands often when we pray. Yes, absolutely, and I know that there are certain cultures, both in the
01:26:23: Middle East and when I've been in Africa, where it's not uncommon for men to hold hands with one another in regards to friendship.
01:26:32: So we're not talking about different cultural expressions that you might have in the
01:26:37: Old Testament context in a Jewish culture than what you would have in the Western culture. But one thing
01:26:43: I don't see anywhere is the concept of two men desiring to live together in some type of relationship that looks like a marriage but is sexless.
01:26:56: I've not experienced that or seen that way that they describe it. It's warped to me.
01:27:02: Right. We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who says, do you think a lot of this is just selfishness in regard to people wanting something that they can't experience biblically?
01:27:19: What I mean by that is that many people approach the area of homosexuality or fornication as if sex is equivalent to oxygen, food, and water.
01:27:30: They think that people need these things, and it is wrong to deprive them of these things, and therefore they are victims in some way rather than guilty of either sinful activity or lust.
01:27:45: I think that Arnie has a lot validity in what he's saying there. For instance, this may sound like a comical description or analogy, or it may just seem stupid to a lot of people.
01:28:05: Let's just say somebody is really ugly. It may be that they were born ugly.
01:28:13: It may be for any other reason that they're ugly. And no woman or no man, if they are a woman, is likely to ever want to marry this person.
01:28:25: Does that mean that this person, because they are being deprived of experiencing a sexual relationship, that they should have the right to pay for it?
01:28:34: Am I making sense here? Yes. I think that what he's commenting on in his question is so true, because every single sin is extremely selfish.
01:28:50: I think that homosexuality, for example, is probably maybe the height of that, a self -love to one degree or another, because it's loving a mirror.
01:28:59: It's loving the same image. One of the things about the way that God has created us as a man loving a woman and vice versa is that I have to learn to love someone and care for someone who is vastly different from me, learning to understand my wife and sacrificing for her.
01:29:21: And totally, a love of self is what sin just feeds upon, and there's no doubt
01:29:28: I believe that that's a lot of what's transpiring in this particular discussion. Yeah, and another example might be, there are
01:29:34: Christians, uh, probably predominantly those who became
01:29:39: Christians in prison who are serving life sentences, and they're not going to be able to have sex with anybody.
01:29:46: I mean, that is just a lot in life, providentially, that they have been given, and therefore, they are going to live their life in obedience to God by having that area of their life removed.
01:30:00: Again, isn't sex being treated too much, as we just heard, like something that we are required to have to live, like the oxygen that we breathe, the food that we eat, the water that we drink?
01:30:16: Well, they would come back and say this. They would say that they're not necessarily desiring sex, that what they're desiring is intimacy, and that we are, by the way that we're defining homosexuality for them, or same -sex attraction, by totally dismissing that, that we're denying them intimacy with others.
01:30:43: And therefore, they want to teach uh, those who have same -sex attraction how to enjoy and express that intimate desires that they have for the same sex in a way that doesn't cross the line and go into sexual, um, expressions.
01:31:01: Isn't that really putting yourself into a greater area of temptation by doing that?
01:31:07: Absolutely, I believe that. I mean, it makes no sense. I believe that wholeheartedly. Well, like, just like I said earlier, uh,
01:31:13: I mean, I think that these are different sins. I don't believe that all sin is sin. The only way that all sin is sin is that any sin will send you to hell without the covering of Christ's blood.
01:31:23: That's been the one way that we, that all sins are the same. But I mentioned before that I no longer view myself as having the freedom to enjoy the liberty of moderate, occasional, uh, imbibing of alcoholic beverages.
01:31:41: I can fellowship with my brothers and sisters who are having a glass of wine over dinner, and I have done that many times, but I do not,
01:31:50: I believe, have the freedom to do that because I know what a horrible wreck of my life
01:31:56: I made by that sin of overindulgence, to put it mildly, drunkenness, uh, very, to an, to an evil level of drunkenness.
01:32:06: Now, um, isn't that, if they believe that homosexuality in a sexual sense is sin and damnable, why would they even want to put themselves in greater jeopardy by cuddling with another man or whatever it is they're envisioning doing?
01:32:23: I, I have no answer for that. It is other than the fact that they, they try to claim that, uh, they long for intimacy.
01:32:31: But let's, let's just use an illustration, or let's say that, so what they're saying simply is if someone comes into my office, pastorally speaking here,
01:32:39: I think this is a good example, and they tell me they're struggling with attraction towards a man, and it comes to me, says,
01:32:45: I'm struggling with attraction towards another man. Basically, they're saying that I need to teach him that, that the attraction in and of itself is not necessarily sinful.
01:32:57: If it's sexual, it's sinful, but the attraction in and of itself isn't. There's, therefore you need to go and learn how to develop relationships with other men that meet, uh, those intimate desires you have, uh, without crossing the line of sex.
01:33:15: That to me, that may be a little overstated, but that's the essence of what they say. Now let's turn the tables and say a man comes into my office an hour later, and he says that he's married, or even unmarried, and he is struggling with lust towards other women.
01:33:31: I would not look at him and say, listen, let me tell you how you deal with that. Um, rather than you're fleeing the immorality, rather than, than mortifying that desire of lust, what
01:33:43: I would encourage you to do is to begin to determine how you can develop and meet those needs of intimacy that you feel with, uh, with, uh, other women and don't cross the line sexually, but develop relationships and friendships with those women that are, are not crossing that line.
01:34:00: What pastor would give that kind of advice to someone? You know, if a man, if a man comes to me, imagine me going home to my wife and telling her, honey,
01:34:10: I have now decided how I'm going to deal with any time that I might have a lustful thought that comes to my mind,
01:34:16: I'm going to, uh, deal with that by developing, uh, spiritual friendships with other women that meet the, the attraction that I have, the natural attraction
01:34:27: I have towards other women. I mean, I'd be out on the street in about 10 minutes. Um, uh,
01:34:33: I mean, it's just a ridiculous argument that they use when you turn it around and use it at a different setting.
01:34:40: Right. And I don't think it's good pastoral advice at all. It's not biblical. Right. We should be fleeing temptation on embracing it.
01:34:45: We have to get to our final break. This is a briefer break than the last one, but please use this time to write down questions for our guests,
01:34:52: Tom Buck, before we run out of time and also write down the information provided by our advertisers. Don't go away.
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01:41:49: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen, and this is the final 20 minutes of our interview today with Tom Buck, and Pastor Tom Buck is the senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Lindale, Texas, and if you want more information about this church, go to fbclindale .com,
01:42:09: that's F -B -C for First Baptist Church, Lindale, which is L -I -N -D -A -L -E .com,
01:42:17: F -B -C -Lindale .com. We have a listener from Clifton, New Jersey, Joey, who has a question slash comment for you,
01:42:27: Pastor Tom. I hope I might be able to shed some light on the issue you are discussing.
01:42:33: There was once a time that I had to tell a woman that she was having an emotional affair with a man who was not her husband.
01:42:41: She objected on the basis that she had not made any sexual advances towards that man, nor did she imagine him sexually.
01:42:50: I had to explain to her that there is a companionship aspect to a marriage or romantic relationship that is not necessarily sexual.
01:43:01: The same principle applies to same -sex relationships.
01:43:12: Companionship can be romantic or non -romantic. While romantic companionship is not often separated from sexual companionship, it can be.
01:43:21: Those in this movement may be seeking to have the romantic companionship while obeying the letter of the law by not having sexual companionship.
01:43:31: If so, it is essentially having a same -sex romantic relationship, even though there is no explicit sexual component.
01:43:40: That was obviously commentary, not a question, but what do you have to say about Joey's commentary? I think that's a great commentary.
01:43:47: Exactly. I have had the same situation and not thought of that before, so I think it's so helpful to the discussion.
01:43:54: But I've had the same conversation in 25 years as a pastor with individuals that I'm counseling for marriage counseling.
01:44:04: Either the wife or the husband has been emotionally involved in some way, and I have labeled that as adulterous in nature.
01:44:16: It's certainly many actual adulterous in sexual intimacy relationships have occurred that began with that type of emotional connection.
01:44:31: In fact, I have not discovered in my years of experience of counseling
01:44:37: Christians that any adulterous relationship that began with two people immediately engaging in sexual activity.
01:44:48: I'm sure that probably has occurred, but it's not been my experience. It has begun with other things that led to the sexual intimacy.
01:44:56: That's why we encourage people, tell people, if you're going to mortify sin,
01:45:04: I don't think you only mortify, and this is exactly what I believe Jesus would be teaching
01:45:09: Matthew 5, you not only seek to mortify the outward act, you must be seeking by the grace of God, and this is what the gospel accomplishes for us, the mortification of those desires of the heart that give birth to those outward expressions.
01:45:28: Well, thank you for the very helpful commentary, Joey, from Clifton, New Jersey, and continue to send in excellent questions and comments on Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio.
01:45:37: Keep spreading the word in New Jersey and beyond. We have, let's see, B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who says, when it boils down to it, isn't this whole issue about people who identify themselves as gay or homosexual while recognizing that they cannot fulfill their desires physically, isn't this really still just a lust problem?
01:46:02: There are plenty of heterosexuals who meet and perhaps work with and associate with very attractive people of the opposite sex, and they intentionally make sure that their minds never drift to a sexual fantasy.
01:46:22: It is just something that they prepare themselves for and train themselves to do, and perhaps they have developed such a fond friendship relationship with these people of the opposite sex that it doesn't even occur to them, no matter how beautiful or handsome these people from the opposite sex are.
01:46:38: Why is it that these people who have the unnatural attraction to the same sex have to have this as such an essential core of their identity if it is not a lustful sin?
01:46:57: Well, again, it's hard to necessarily read the hearts of these individuals, whether they're truly experiencing sexual lust.
01:47:07: If we take them at their word, they're saying that their desire is to not have any sexual lust towards those individuals.
01:47:16: They claim that even in the friendships that they establish, that they need to be careful to make sure that they're not establishing a friendship with someone solely based upon, or based at all, upon some type of sexual desire.
01:47:31: I just think they're deceiving themselves. I think that they are trying to disguise that which is truly lustful in their hearts, that they may not even be realizing that that's an expression of it.
01:47:45: It seems that they, people in the Revoice, are trying to invent a category of behavior that is benign and has no moral bearing upon it, but it's a behavior that is not normal.
01:48:04: It's not something that people of the same sex commonly do.
01:48:10: It's not something that people of the same sex would do without being looked upon as being guilty of the sin of homosexuality.
01:48:18: I mean, if you're cuddling with a man in a sleeping bag or something, people are going to say they are homosexuals.
01:48:24: I mean, you're giving the appearance of evil. Am I misunderstanding what you're saying about this kind of thing that they yearn for?
01:48:35: I mean, I think that our listener, BB, is correct in saying that it is lust, even if it has nothing to do with an actual sex act.
01:48:45: There's something abnormal or unnatural about what they are wanting to do.
01:48:51: Absolutely. There is something wrong and natural disordered about desiring to hold on to this label of calling yourself gay, calling yourself same -sex attracted, to identify yourself in that way when even that desire is,
01:49:09: I believe, disordered and should be mortified. Let's take this one step further because we know that they use the
01:49:16: LGBTQ plus. They use that very terminology.
01:49:22: Well, we know where the plus is going in our culture. The plus is going towards pedophilia eventually in our culture.
01:49:28: So let's apply the same logic that we're using with the exact terminology. Would we feel comfortable or are we really going to say that we would feel comfortable to say that there are certain people that are attracted towards the beauty of children and that in and of itself is not sinful.
01:49:48: Only if they act on that and actually do something to a child is that necessarily sinful.
01:49:54: None of us, at least today, who knows what 10 years will be from now, but who would buy into that argumentation?
01:50:02: Yet what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If they begin to say that this applies to the L, the
01:50:07: G, the B, and the T, when we get down the line in the alphabet and we begin applying the same type of logic, we are going to be in serious, serious trouble in the church if we've embraced it at this point.
01:50:20: John in Bangor, Maine asks if they are using the acronym of LGBTQ, does that mean they believe it is acceptable behavior for a man to dress like a woman or vice versa as long as there's no sexual activity going on?
01:50:36: Great question. They don't answer that. They have not at all discussed the
01:50:43: T of the LGBT. They use the terminology LGBT. They acknowledge that the
01:50:49: T exists, but they don't address it at all. In fact, there's a lot of questions that I would agree with him that are logical conclusions, not just dressing.
01:50:58: Would they be okay with a man transitioning to a woman?
01:51:04: Would they acknowledge that person then as a woman? And would they then be okay for that now quote -unquote woman to marry a man?
01:51:12: I mean, there's all kinds of craziness that you could begin to think through this that they're not addressing, but they're not ready to take us to that level yet.
01:51:19: They're just dealing at the L and the G at this point, barely even touching the
01:51:25: B. But let me just say one thing to this. As I said, they're wanting to normalize their
01:51:33: LGBT category, and to do so they have to bring down what is natural.
01:51:41: If they're going to elevate what is unnatural in scripture, they have to then bring down what is natural.
01:51:46: And here's how they did this in the last conference, I think it's important, or the Revoice conference, I think everybody needs to know.
01:51:52: Nate Collins preached from Jeremiah 15, and he talked in that sermon about how
01:51:58: Jeremiah had to embrace his calling, and he had to suffer all of the persecution that came with that.
01:52:05: He then later in the sermon said, is it possible that gay people today are being sent by God like Jeremiah in order to help the church, now get this, hear these words, it's unbelievable, to shed light on contemporary false teachings, and even idolatry, and the more subtle forms of teaching in the church of the idolatry of the nuclear family.
01:52:32: So listen to the last sentence, he says, could it be that we are called as gay
01:52:37: Christians to the church, to call upon the church to abandon idolatrous attitudes toward the nuclear family towards sexual pleasure?
01:52:46: If so, we are prophets. So they preached at this conference that the gay community of this particular
01:52:56: Revoice conference may be actually prophets sent by God to call upon the church to repent of its idolatry towards the nuclear family.
01:53:07: It's stunning to me. Wow. I have on this program disagreed with some of my guests,
01:53:15: I mean, and I'm talking about people that are conservative Bible -believing
01:53:21: Christians that believe that any form of same -sex attraction or activity are an abomination, but who seem to think it's okay to call it the gay community.
01:53:34: I have always consistently disagreed with that terminology. To me, it is either consciously or unconsciously buying into a leftist anti -biblical worldview, where you are viewing people who are guilty of a certain depravity and wickedness, you're viewing them in the same categories as you would place people of different ethnic groups and nationalities.
01:53:59: And to me, that's just totally wrong. But what do you think about that? I agree completely. In fact,
01:54:05: I think using the term, sometimes I flip and do it because it's become so commonplace in our culture to use the term
01:54:12: LGBT community. I like to use the word LGBT movement or something of that nature.
01:54:19: But when you use the word community, that is really a terminology that makes no sense in this particular group, and I think it's a capitulation to their entire view and what they're wanting to push upon the church altogether.
01:54:35: Because what you're doing is you're saying that there is a community of people that are based together upon their immoral practices.
01:54:45: And that's where, listen, Revoist didn't invent the term LGBT, and they know exactly what the rest of the world uses
01:54:52: LGBT for, and they understand what LGBT community stands for.
01:54:57: If they want to claim that they're side B Christians that believe that you can be in the
01:55:05: LGBT category but not acting in any way on that, that is not the way
01:55:11: LGBT community is used in our culture whatsoever. It is a full -forced, immoral, godless group of people that desire to live out their rebellion before God, and I refuse to identify them as a community.
01:55:27: Good. So I'm not alone here. We have
01:55:32: Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, and she says that,
01:55:40: I heard that the Revoist conference had some connection with the PCA, otherwise known as the
01:55:46: Presbyterian Church in America. Am I right on that? And if so, what is the major voice in the
01:55:53: PCA saying about this conference and these beliefs? Well, obviously not being a part of the
01:56:02: PCA, I want to be very careful how I speak about this. It was held in the PCA church.
01:56:07: Greg Johnson is the pastor who hosted this event.
01:56:13: He is completely sympathetic to the Revoist, obviously. He spoke at the conference, and he considers himself what he would call an ally to this group of individuals.
01:56:26: From what I understand, the PCA itself would not agree with what
01:56:35: Revoist is teaching. I am completely unaware if there's been any actions taken in the
01:56:42: Presbytery against Greg Johnson or the church. I think they should. I personally think that every group
01:56:50: I've called upon, before Al Mueller came out and spoke completely publicly about this,
01:56:57: I called upon Southern Rapids Theological Seminary participants themselves completely from Nate Collins.
01:57:03: I believe the Southern Rapids Convention needs to speak firmly against this, and anyone who endorses this should not be a part of any leadership in the
01:57:13: Southern Rapids Convention. I've written an article on that because there was at least one member of the LLC that endorsed this conference and has not withdrawn the endorsement.
01:57:22: But I can't speak for the PCA in its entirety and wouldn't want to do so, other than the fact that I have heard them speak out against what
01:57:28: Revoist is teaching. But I don't know what actions they're going to take. Now, what have you heard in response from your brethren in the
01:57:34: Southern Baptist Convention to what you just said, that they need to say something publicly to rebuke
01:57:42: Nate Collins? What has been the reaction about that? Well, I don't know if they've reacted to me directly, but I know that Dr.
01:57:52: Mueller and I direct you to his blog where he wrote an article,
01:57:57: Torn Between Two Cultures, and that's at albertmueller .com. He clearly and explicitly calls out the false teaching of Nate Collins, and he's unequivocal in his criticism.
01:58:11: He makes it very clear where he stands on it, and I'm very thankful for the stance that he took. The RLC, in my opinion, has been not nearly clear enough as they need to be on this, and Russell Moore has given very little attention compared to other things that he gives attention to.
01:58:32: And I still call upon Dr. Moore to come out and give a clear personal statement on this, and to call upon everyone which is within the
01:58:41: RLC to denounce what Revoice is teaching. Now, Mueller has said that no one in his institution would be allowed to be involved in this kind of a conference whatsoever, or hold any positions that are held by Revoice.
01:58:56: Well, I want to make sure our listeners have your website. Again, it is fbclindale .com.
01:59:03: F -B -C for First Baptist Church. Lindale is L -I -N -D -A -L -E .com. I want to thank you so much,
01:59:08: Pastor Tom Buck, for being on the program. I certainly want you to return as a guest soon and often, and if you hang on the line,
01:59:16: I'd like to schedule another interview with you. I thank you for having me very much today. And I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write in questions, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater