April 1, 2016 Show with Eric Holmberg on “Amazing Grace: The History and Theology of Calvinism

That can last.

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Take care.

Brian Tweed.

And that's interesting, isn't it?

He took the pictures.

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It's time.

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OK, we'll take a break and we'll be back.

That's ready.

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

It's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian

scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world

today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron.

So one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, We are cautioned to take heed when we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour.

And we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now, here's our host, Chris Arnton.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of

humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arnton, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Friday on

this first day of April 2016.

And as many know, this is known as April Fool's Day,

April Fool's Day.

And I may be getting an April Fool prank played on me right now because my guest is nowhere

to be found.

But hopefully he'll be calling in any second.

Eric Holmberg is our guest today.

He is founder of the Apologetics Group, and he is the host of a

documentary that has proven to be one of the most valuable tools used

by theologically reformed Christians, otherwise known as Calvinists, to

spread or evangelize the truths of the doctrines of sovereign grace to others,

and also for those who are either unequipped to defend

these truths that they believe or are completely new to them.

It's an invaluable, phenomenal training tool.

And the documentary that I am speaking about is Amazing Grace, the History and Theology of

Calvinism.

And Eric Holmberg is our guest today, hopefully.

I did communicate with him today, so I believe that he should be

calling in any moment.

And in the meantime, I'm going to introduce my listeners to my co -host today,

Reverend Buzz Taylor.

Hello once again.

And Buzz, you may have to really brush up on this topic, but

during our station break, because I don't know if Eric is going to be joining us.

Well, I did just watch the video again last night, you know.

And hopefully Eric will be joining us very soon, and I'm sure he will.

I'm not sure, I'm not omniscient, but I'm fairly confident he will be, as typically

happens on this program when our guests don't call in on time.

But if you, the listener, would like to send in a question about the doctrines of sovereign

grace, otherwise nicknamed as Calvinism, Reformed theology,

and other names, give us a call as soon as you can.

In fact, this is probably Eric right now.

Hello, Eric.

Hey, yeah, you're supposed to be calling my studio right now.

We are live on the air.

Let me give you that number again.

I guess you'd misplaced the email I sent you with the number on it.

Yes, that's all right.

If you could call in, that'd be great.

And yes, that's live radio for you, ladies and gentlemen.

Well, my job has got a lot easier.

And so Eric should be calling in at any moment now, now that we have communicated.

Well, one thing that's very obvious now, Chris, we don't have this big plate glass between us and all these

technicians.

Right.

And this is another humorous circumstance here.

And here we go.

And welcome to Iron Sharpens Iron for the very first time, Eric Holmberg.

Hey, Chris, good to be with you.

Yeah, and sorry for the lack of communication on making sure that you called in on

time and so forth.

But Eric, for our listeners who are familiar with Eric, who have never heard him on this program or

otherwise before, he is founder and director of Real to Real Ministries, Incorporated, and the

Apologetics Group.

And as an ordained minister, author, speaker, and video documentarian, his

creative use of multimedia and a vibrant Christian worldview in analyzing some of the key issues of

our time has brought him before audiences in homes, churches, schools,

college campuses, conferences, and on television and radio around the world.

And it is my pleasure to have you on the broadcast today about a subject that is near and dear

to my heart, and also I know near and dear to the heart of my co -host, the Reverend Buzz Taylor.

And I'd like you to introduce.

Yourself, Buzz, to Eric Holmberg.

Eric, Buzz Taylor here.

It's good to meet you on the phone.

Well, Buzz, same here.

And the thing that Buzz and I were, in fact, speaking about before the show

started was that this documentary that you are involved in,

that you helped to produce, in fact you host it, Amazing Grace, the History

and Theology of Calvinism, I am not exaggerating when I say it is the most

valuable tool that I have ever seen or heard

that teaches in a very thorough and very

deep way the doctrines of Sovereign Grace, Reform Theology, Calvinism,

however you want to phrase it.

And I have been giving copies of this DVD to people who either

outright oppose these teachings or are just new to them, having trouble with them.

And I just, I'm not being paid by anybody to say this, as you know.

I just can't say enough accolades.

To rave about this documentary.

Well, as soon as you stop, I'm going to start adding mine then.

All right, go ahead.

Because really, I wanted to say the same thing, that I have never encountered

something so well organized.

I really like the way that you went through the history of the doctrines of

grace and then ended up in very practical ways on the second disc.

It's just the best I have seen anywhere and I dare anybody to watch this and not come out a

Calvinist.

Well, that also involves the very things that we believe, Buzz.

This is true.

That have to be revealed to people by God's grace and mercy.

I should have started with this instead of ended with it.

But Eric, a job well done, and a number of the speakers that you

have in this documentary have been guests on Iron Sharpens Iron.

In fact, one of the speakers, Walt Chantry, is the

former pastor of the church where I am currently a member here in Pennsylvania, Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle.

There you go, small world.

Yeah, small world.

And so I am totally thrilled with this product that you have come out with, this ministry tool.

And before we even go into how you personally became a

fervent believer in the doctrines of sovereign grace or Reformed theology or Calvinism, tell us

something about reel -to -reel ministries.

Many of our listeners, when you start describing reel -to -reel ministries, it may jog their memories

about your involvement with that ministry even before you became a Calvinist.

I can remember my first introduction to you was probably in

the late 80s, early 90s, but I am pretty sure it was the late 80s.

I was invited to a church on Long Island, New York, Sheepskate Assembly,

where my friend Pastor Joe Sedzik is the pastor, and he had a special presentation

that had something to do with the dangers of heavy metal music and so on.

But if.

You could let our listeners know about reel -to -reel.

Well, sure.

Reel -to -reel began kind of informally back around 1982.

I had a Damascus road experience from 1980, as you

might tell people that my

father was a transgender, or those guys

were, but I didn't have a lot of kids.

I was a nominal Christian, went to church, puberty, and got

involved with agnostic

love.

But then, boom, 1980, October, Jesus had mercy on me, and I had this incredible moment where I

knew he was God, and he

radically changed my life.

And I wanted to spend a week

just kind of

in grace and mercy

possession

of record

-collecting life.

So I tore it down.

I had a number

of months of Bible

studies.

Nobody was caught.

Many people, really.

Somebody gave me a tape on contemporary music, rock

and roll.

You know, this is an interesting angle here.

This could really connect with people because I understood.

So I listened to the tape, and

I just found myself getting mad.

It was the guy had some of his

facts wrong.

It was like, still small

voice.

Somebody helped

me make my

first video, and that was the beginning of reel -to -reel ministry.

I connected with five years of my Christian

walk.

Like most people, they were caught up in the whole Jesus movement.

A lot of in times.

His dad was a

president.

He

definitely

had it.

I know

he's

talking to his

dad.

He was at that

point reading C .S. Lewis and then Francis Schaeffer.

I did a number of other

videos,

and a bunch of other things.

But then I met him.

He approached me.

He had also come

raise a little bit of money, and he was

free with

us.

And then we got D. James

Kennedy,

and I'm guessing there's been

purchase.

There's no telling how many people have seen one DVD.

I know there's churches.

They can see

if they want to.

At that point, we

changed it to

started doing it.

By the way, I'm not patting myself on the back because I do count it as a modern -day miracle, but

I, too, interviewed R .C. Sproul after about three years

of attempts that failed out of the blue.

Not only did he agree to do an interview, probably back in 2007 or so,

2008 maybe, but he also agreed to do a

live call -in interview, which that was like absolutely anathema for

Ligonier.

They would not allow that at all, even if they agreed to an interview.

And he agreed to both, and he wrote me an endorsement, which is proudly displayed on my

website at the top that I'm sure that most people think that I made it up, that it's not real.

But R .C. Sproul actually wrote me this glowing endorsement for Iron Sharpens Iron that I cherish beyond description.

But one of the things that I'd like to begin with is

a summary of what Calvin is.

When I describe Calvinism to those of my friends or

acquaintances or even strangers that I meet that might bring up the subject in some providential way,

the way that I summarize it in a sentence is that God alone saves sinners

because sinners cannot even help save themselves.

How would you summarize these doctrines that have been nicknamed Calvinism, Reformed Theology,

and the doctrines of Sovereign.

Grace?

That's a very good definition.

I'm not sure I've ever just sat and thought about it.

I'm not saying you had to do it.

I'm just saying that's the way I did it in a sentence.

Yeah, no, that sounds great.

I mean, essentially that God is sovereign in everything, including salvation.

And that really,

really embraces Reformed Theology,

which is

you get your eyes, you're getting to the meat of the matter.

The fault mechanism is

just moral knowledge.

Everybody has a dim memory of paradise garden they're supposed to

get back to.

There's

ideologies and metaphysical systems to get back.

Karl Marx, you know, class of society,

is worthy to get in there.

To think

why, you know, your Reformed Theology really just biblical

Christianity simply says, you have no steam.

How are you back?

God gets all

the glory.

Well, you know, you just said a number of things in there that I'm trying to put myself in the place of our

listeners.

Because I recall a time back when I was an independent Baptist pastor, and I was

preaching against the doctrines of grace.

You just mentioned true religion.

And I can hear all over, as Chris would say at the beginning of the program, humanity all over the world right now

is going,.

Oh, I don't believe he just said that.

I find it very interesting that unless you really understand these and embrace them, these doctrines are

hated in evangelicalism.

Could you just kind of back up a little bit and remind us, you started an

antagonism to these doctrines yourself, as did I and a whole bunch of.

Us.

In fact, one thing that you could demonstrate that

is by telling our listeners, which you explain even in the Amazing Grace

documentary, why you had to change a previously made documentary

of your own or not a documentary, but an evangelism tool that you did on video,

where it involved at first a hospital bed, and you changed it to a casket

in a funeral home, if you could.

Chris, yeah, the whole study of rock

music for God, but

toward the end of that

demonstrate to people the embrace

of

nihilism.

In

intensive

care, just a moment away from death,

Christ.

And people do need to make decisions for Christ.

And before I complete the story, Chris and Buzz,

let me make this.

Right.

Tremendous.

And our Arminian, you know, I

was saved as an Arminian.

Oh yes, yeah.

Evaluating, tweaking

certain doctrines.

There's two different kinds of Arminianism, meaning this idea that we have to participate with

God in our salvation, and

which is

that people have the ability

to be faithful to God.

And that's rank.

Unfortunately, there are some,

particularly

in the great America,.

I never was a

ranked Pelagian.

But then you're really in serious shape.

You are, there is

such

a thing.

We

need mercy.

So the

analogy would be

to know I

was dead in my transgression.

I was dead.

You have to

be born again before you can even come to an understanding that there's an error, that you're out,

you know, that you need God's grace and mercy.

And so the better analogy is that it's a

guy, and it

could become a

living,

a hell's belt.

That's the analogy we have, the guy in his casket.

Yeah.

And basically, wouldn't you agree that those who reject

the doctrines of sovereign grace, even if they aren't consciously doing it because they've never even really heard

Reformed theology or Calvinism explained to them, well, those who have a contrary

understanding of the gospel than those who are Calvinist do,

they're really unconsciously exalting man higher

than he biblically has been described, and they are lowering God to a lower status of

power.

Than he truly has.

Am I right in saying that?

You are.

That's kind of a painful way to put it,

but there's really no getting around it.

You get no credit, and

then any doctrine that takes.

Away God's glory has got to be wrong.

And before I go on to some major questions that you wanted me to pose for the interview,

also, just as you wanted to give a caveat to what we're talking about, there is

a theology that can be truly labeled hyper -Calvinism that,

unfortunately, many of the enemies of the doctrines of grace, they will use

that label for anyone who is just a historic Calvinist or who understands the scriptures the

way the Reformers did and the way historically Reformed or Calvinistic

Christians have always understood it, and that's an incorrect use of that label.

But there is truly an aberrant understanding of these teachings

where it so declares God's sovereignty

in an imbalanced way that they negate the scriptures that do

insist that man is accountable before God for his sin, and they wind up really clouding that issue

and really make the whole the whole task ahead of us

to try to explain what we believe a more difficult test because we are being broad -brushed with

these hyper -Calvinists.

But if you could explain a.

Little bit more about that.

Yeah, that's probably the single accusation that's leveled against Calvinists.

I get it all the time that people just, in trying to apply

human logic, they end up kind of like the example that Paul gave in Romans,

that, you know, the doctrine of grace, the doctrine of Christ, basically says God is

Jesus has come in and done everything that needs to be done to wipe away your sins.

Also, some will say, well, should we, why don't we just send all the more so grace can abound?

That's a logical, that logical and

a very, the danger of human race,

that's a people's struggle.

You know, it's not something that you can fully get

your mind around, even kind of halfway get your mind around.

It's a mystery.

Most of the real trend, most of the truths that play it, that are just the bedrock of

Christianity, have an element of mystery.

I can't understand it.

Any God that's worshipping is a God that's going to short -circuit.

That's what people do.

They say, oh, okay, well, then God just,

he wanted to go to India.

Or is it China?

I can't remember.

He wanted to go.

They said, you know, you don't need to go

there.

God doesn't need your

help.

And that is, that is reasoning to it.

It's just that

error.

And it is, wouldn't you be quick to say that it is a

minority within.

Those under the umbrella of reformed and Calvinistic believers today?

I mean, the most prominent reformed or Calvinistic ministries that we have

in existence and the most prominent publishers and authors and pastors are not teaching this

hyper -Calvinism.

There's some knuckleheads out there.

I hate to admit, but I did finally meet one.

Well, they do exist on the internet.

I've run into a number of them.

Oh, yeah.

There's all kinds of them out there.

But as far as prominent leaders,.

You know, they're all walking in balance.

And there have been some abuses of Calvinism in certain denominations.

I know one of my friends, Dr. Joel Beakey, you may be familiar with him, he had

to leave the denomination that he was formerly associated with, the Netherlands Reformed

Church, because it had some of the trappings of hyper -Calvinism inherent to it.

But one of the things that, and we will get to your questions that you

want me to pose in a minute, but one of the things that I like to bring up to those when

having a discussion about these things who are in opposition to them,

that I tell them there has to be something wrong with your understanding of the

scriptures in regard to God's sovereignty.

If what you teach does not have a built -in rebuttal

that Paul foresees in his own commentary, in

his letter to the Romans, when he says, you will say to me then, why

does he, meaning God, still find fault for who resists his will?

On the contrary, who are you, oh man, who answers back to God?

The thing molded will not say to the molder, why did you make me like this, will it?

Or does not the potter have a right over the clay to make from the

same lump one vessel of honorable use and another of common use?

What if God, although willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much

patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

And he did so to make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for

glory.

Even us, whom he also called not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

Now, if your theology doesn't have a built -in

system of theology that would make a natural man respond the way that

Paul foresaw man would respond, your theology must be incorrect.

Am I making sense,.

Or did I ramble on too much?

Oh yeah, that's a fantastic point.

I was going to make it myself.

Precisely.

If we're not preaching the gospel that makes people go, well, why don't I just send all the more so grace can abound,

we don't have to provoke that response to the carnal mind.

In the same way, the way we present the doxology, grace, etc.,

should provoke to the carnal mind precisely that response.

Well, then, yeah, you hit it right nail

on the head.

We have to go to a break right now, but before we go to the break, I'm going to pose one of the questions that

we'd like to discuss at greater depth, so you have time to prepare your

answer when we return from the break.

The question is, if Calvinism is true, that means there are people God could

save but doesn't.

If he is all love and would that none should perish, where is the justice in that?

Well, we're going to leave that with you, and we'll get your answer to that when we return from the break.

If you'd like to join us on the air as well, if you're listening, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

If you have a question of your own, chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E

-N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA.

You may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable, but please try to at least give us your first name and your

location.

And we're going to be right back after these messages, so don't go away.

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God, or am I trying

to please man?

If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a Reformed church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostle's priority, it must not be ours either.

We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be

vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth and

love.

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750.

That's 508 -528 -5750.

Or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our TV program

entitled Resting in Grace.

You can find us at providencebaptistchurchma .org.

That's providencebaptistchurchma .org, or even on sermonaudio .com.

Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor.

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today is Eric Holmberg, and he

is one of the producers and the host of an amazing documentary called Amazing

Grace, the History and Theology of Calvinism.

We are discussing the contents of this documentary today, and if you'd like to join us on the air,

our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

And some of the contributors to this DVD set are

Dr. R .C. Sproul, who's been on this program, Dr. Tom Nettles, who's been on this program a number of

times, Reverend Walt Chantry, who's also been on this broadcast, Thomas

Askell, who has been on this broadcast and will be again in about two weeks, Dr. R .C.

Sproul Jr., who's also been on this broadcast, Dr. Joe Moorcraft, who's also been on this broadcast,

and a number of other speakers, and it is really a thorough job that they have

all done.

I mean, it really leaves no stone unturned that I could even think of in regard to defending these doctrines known as

Calvinism, Reformed Theology, or the doctrines of Sovereign Grace.

And if you could go to that question that I just asked before the break, if Calvinism is

true, that means there are people God could save but doesn't.

If he is all love and would that none should perish, where is the justice in that?

Yeah,

that

probably

is

the

number

one

objection,

and

I'm

not

saying

that a

new

earth

we're

going

to

come

for.

It's

really

to be

this great

king.

In

a piece

with

a game boy,

that gave him

Aristotle's

The Unpleasant Stuff, needs

us to have,

ordained for us to have.

People speculate,

referring to

this, really know.

Yeah, in fact, the Reverend Buzz sitting next to me brought that up not long ago to me.

Yeah.

Well, Buzz is, that's well known in these parts.

Well, actually, I

told the audience that you may be

pulling an

April Fool's joke on

me by not calling

into the

studio.

And then we

also know

that

at Calvary,

Jesus holds

some people to rise up.

How do you

get stronger?

You lean on your muscles.

I love

the pastor out of

each.

Follow a man named Joshua to the promised land.

Follow a man named Yeshua, Joshua G.

And there's all these enemies in the

parable report.

Oh my goodness.

That's, you know,

there's

some good stuff in here.

And as far as the enemies, you said, do not rebel against the Lord, only do not fear the people of

the land.

But they are.

We're going to get rid

of them.

We're going to

compromise,

unfortunately,

later

churches.

We go, okay, Pharaoh,

disown

hard

and say, no,

I'm going to.

Yeah.

In fact, you brought up something very important.

There is a misunderstanding by those who are not reformed, who are

not Calvinist, that when we say we do not believe in the

doctrine of free will, they think that means we believe God is

forcing people against their will to either obey him or reject him

as if man in his natural state of sin would ever want to follow

Christ on his own.

And the issue really is, is that man has a free will to act upon, uh, to act according to

his nature and the desires that his nature would give him.

Am I correct in describing it that way?

Yeah, because there, there, there is obviously always the accusation of

robots that we believe that God has created just merely robots.

And one time I just have to share with you something.

And I know I'm maybe boring.

Some of my listeners who heard this story, but, um, I have a friend, uh, a dear friend, Bob,

who is a Roman Catholic.

And he used to, when he lived nearby me, he used to have barbecues at his home.

And his sole purpose of having the barbecues and parties was to invite Roman Catholics and

evangelicals over his house so that they could eat, drink, and argue.

And, and one time he said to me, you know, you, uh, Calvinists, you believe that

men that, that God, uh, makes men into robots.

And I said, well, what are you talking about?

He says, if you don't have the free will to either believe in Christ or reject him, you are a robot.

And I said to him, do you believe that, uh, heaven is your ultimate goal in life?

Is that, is that your number one goal is to eventually be in heaven for eternity?

He goes, of course.

So I said to him, so your ultimate goal in life, your primary goal, your reason for living is to become a robot.

He said, what are you talking about?

And I said, can you reject Christ in heaven?

He said, no.

And I said, well, if you don't have the freedom of will to reject Christ in heaven, doesn't that mean you're a robot?

And then he, after a pause of silence, he said, maybe you can sin in heaven.

But, uh, men do freely choose

every action.

They, uh, they're involved in, uh, they are just merely acting according

to their nature.

And when they don't act according to their nature, as you said, it's, it's really the common grace restraining.

Their evil, right?

Exactly.

Luther wrote was the bondage of the will.

Yes.

We're free, but we're not free to choose what we wouldn't want to choose.

Uh, you know, we, we are, we are in bondage and that, that nature basically is

self -referential.

It wants to do something to deserve heaven.

That wants it.

It wants to, we're in bondage to that thing until God has.

Mercy.

Yeah.

And of course, if you use that definition that my Roman Catholic friend gave of a robot is somebody who doesn't have the

freedom of will to choose or reject Christ,.

Then God would be the ultimate robot.

Well, I'll tell you the terms get a whole lot worse than.

Robot.

Yeah.

And, uh, so why would God create someone knowing that

their, their lot will be in the Lake of fire?

Uh, that, that is something that, uh, that those who reject the doctrines of grace have

said time and time again, but in reality, I don't think that they could logically have an

argument against us when their own understanding of things falls apart in

that realm as well.

They can't consistently argue that they have a different, uh, teaching in the scriptures regarding

God, knowing that those who he created will go to hell.

If you follow what I'm.

Saying.

Yeah.

Well, again,

that's,

that's all.

You never know.

Well, men preach to men, share the gospel, pray because

you never know who God is.

He has mercy on who he wants that mercy.

It's just that simple.

Yeah.

That's actually say that and quote God, apart from God, given mercy to

somebody,

they're

going to

just

do

to

God,

just

trying

to get

a culture.

And

one of

the,

the,.

Uh, conflicts that we as reformed Christians, Calvinists, sovereign grace believers,

uh, is that it is claimed by our opponents or theological opponents

that we really diminish the love of God.

And we rob God of the love that he is described as having

in the scriptures.

In.

But if you, and I have to only consider in this, this, uh, part of the conversation, those who

actually believe in the inerrant scriptures who oppose us, because obviously liberals

and universalists would have a completely different dialogue with us.

Uh, in fact, they would be having the same kind of dialogue with our Arminian friends, uh, opposing them.

Uh, but if you believe in the inerrancy of scripture and you believe that there is a

hell, uh, if God really loved every single person

identically, and he had the same kind of not only parental love

upon the, the church as he does with the reprobate or those

who reject him.

And he had the same kind of spousal love that Christ has with the church.

Uh, if he had that kind of love for all humanity,.

Then would not hell be empty forever?

It

would,

and also

Argentina, uh,

and, uh, you know,

and he got, he got away with it.

Uh, a God that loved everybody equal.

I

mean,

how do you counsel somebody whose child is an ethnic

people who've seen their, all their, their family, the victims of genocide.

How do you stop them from just picking up?

There is a God, there is a judgment.

The effect of God's love is that the wicked will be punished, punished

commensurate with the sins that they've committed.

Yeah.

And if, if it was, I once said to a fundamentalist Baptist friend of mine who

hates Calvinism, uh, he, and he, one of his reasons was that he said, you believe God

loves certain people more than others.

And I said to him, so you believe God loves you with the same measure of

intensity that he loves people who are going to be tortured for eternity

in hell?

And he said, yes.

And I said, well, with friends like that, who needs enemies?

I mean, there, that doesn't make any sense at all to say that there is the same

love for the two people that have this totally polar opposite eternal destiny.

But just to say that, Chris, I mean, I also want to add that this is very well covered in the.

Amazing grace video.

Yes.

And buzz is not being paid to say this, even though he said it in a.

Stilted like way that you'd seen in an infomercial.

I can just hear the listeners saying, but wait a minute, but God so loved the world.

Come on now, guys, where are you coming off with this?

You were just saying something Eric, I'm sorry.

Yeah.

I mean, God does so love the world and, you know, and you

might even disagree, right?

And how all

this stuff works.

Again, once you start getting close to the glory, once you start getting close to seeing God's face,

are you going to

be able to

get, and

likely

the

brighter

mind around and the glory of

God,

who's going to be

like Chuck, you said,

never going to get our mind

around it.

We're never going

to

systemize.

I could be

wrong.

And listen, better

people than me.

So, but got

a problem of yeah,

if we could claim otherwise, if we could claim

that we have fully figured this all out,.

We would be actually contradicting what we believe about the nature of man and the nature of God.

We would almost be claiming to be God to have the knowledge of God.

So, so obviously we'll never have this thoroughly figured out.

We can only do what God gives humans the ability to using his

word that we do believe in the purpose, the scriptures that it's clear on all the

things that we need to know, but we will never delve deep enough into these unsearchable

riches of scriptures to know exactly what everything means in them.

And we're going to go into a break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air, there are several people waiting to have their questions asked and answered patiently.

So we'll get to you as soon as we can, when we come back from the break.

But our email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We're going to be right back with Eric Holmberg.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris.

Zarnes, and if you just tuned in on Iron Sharpens Iron, our guest today is Eric Holmberg,

and we are discussing an absolutely superb documentary that everybody needs to

get their hands on no matter what side of the issue of God's sovereignty you

are on, whether you are a thoroughgoing Calvinist, Reformed Christian,

Sovereign Grace believer, however you want to phrase it, or if you're Arminian, or perhaps you're Roman Catholic,

or just none of the above.

If you want to intelligently discuss this issue, this is

the tool that you will definitely want to get your hands on, and that is the Amazing

Grace documentary, The History and Theology of Calvinism.

By far, the best tool that I have ever witnessed

either by viewing or hearing, and I just cannot highly

recommend it more than anything else that I've actually

got my hands on, or should I say I can't recommend anything else more.

That's a better way of phrasing it.

We do have a listener, and if Jeff, if you could also

email us again with your city and state or country of residence so we know where you're

emailing from, but Jeff says here, you

have said on your program today that sinners will act according to their nature.

Given freedom of choice, sinners will just choose to sin.

Could you address whether Adam acted according to his nature or against his nature when he

committed the original sin?

If against his nature, would you say that God preordained him to sin?

Thanks for the great show.

Well, if you could, Eric, respond.

Well,

what a great question.

That is one

smart, and I

would say that's

one aspect of the mystery, the other is

the origin.

And we would gather from the scriptures that Adam was created.

Perfect but not impeccable, that obviously he had the ability to be tempted into sin because he

was, but he prior to that was without sin, just

obviously had the ability to sin prior to the fall.

And by the way, Jeff, I've got a surprise for you, unless you've heard it publicized beforehand.

You're getting a free copy of this DVD, Amazing Grace, the History and

Theology of Calvinism, but you're going to have to email us back with your mailing address because I don't know where you're from.

So email us as soon as you can, Jeff, and we would love to have this shipped out to you as soon as possible.

Compliments of our guest, Eric Holmberg and the Apologetics Group.

Let me also say, he sounds

like a guy that's,

God know that I was going to fall.

Yes, again, Jesus was going to fall.

God not make it happen.

But the question does arise, why did God put a,

why did God allow, you know, the possibility, even for

this to happen, something that we will

never know.

By the way,

Jeff has a follow -up statement.

He is from Mesa,.

Arizona, and he says, I became a follower of Christ through Eric's Hell's Bells video.

Wow.

So praise God for that.

We are rejoicing with you, Jeff, on that note.

And we'll get that out to you ASAP.

We do have an anonymous listener from Long Island, New York, who says,

my pastor says that the language that is used

in the scriptures to paint a picture of total depravity are

really hyperbolic or exaggerated language in poetic form, just to

drive home a point that men are sinners.

But is this true?

Um, that's an interesting question, Eric, because it's amazing to me that I will

get that response from fundamentalists who champion in their own minds

the inerrancy of scripture and almost a hyper -wooden literal interpretation of scripture, except when it

comes to anything that seems to bolster the doctrines of sovereign grace.

But if you could comment on that.

Well,

hyperbole

is definitely a

part

of

it.

I'm much in

favor

of

hyperbole.

I

disagree.

Well, here's an example of texts where I hear this often, that

response.

And it is, I think, a classic go -to text used by Reformed

people when they are describing in biblical terms total depravity.

And that's Romans 3, 10 through 17.

As it is written, there is no one righteous, not even one.

There is no one who understands.

There is no one who seeks God.

All have turned away.

They have together become worthless.

There is no one who does good, not even one.

Their throats are open graves.

Their tongues practice deceit.

The poison of vipers is on their lips.

Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.

Their feet are swift to shed blood.

Ruin and misery mark their ways.

And the way of peace they do not know.

There is no fear of God before their eyes.

And I have heard people respond to that and say, well, obviously, Paul is using hyperbolic poetry

to give you just an idea of the wickedness of man.

But when I hear that, I say, well, why is he saying not even one?

Because it's almost as if he is foreseeing that people would say he's using hyperbole.

And also, when they point to people that do do good things and seem to

be seeking God and don't curse out of their every breath,

even if they are unregenerate, well, isn't that going back to what we were saying earlier about God restraining evil?

That if he had lifted his hand of restraint from natural man, that we couldn't even safely

leave our homes, and probably wouldn't be safe inside of our homes either.

Yeah.

We also don't see, or at least upon not,

you know, you guys have done the question test that D. James Kennedy came up with at

various points.

We all know the universal responses to people who are going to die before God.

Well, we can say, well, I'm a good person.

We judge ourselves and

it is so beyond the pale, so beyond

our ability to get our mind what perfection really is, that truly, even the most righteous,

that is

not,

you know, you

take

to go

to

Jesus?

No, no.

There you have that, that to save myself

reality.

And he came up with, well, let's just do away with ego.

Let's just absolutely get beyond ego and obliterate like

the Dalai Lama guy,

the most

Christian

loving guy,

shot through inside

of God.

And there's no...

CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, asks, oh, by the way, anonymous listener, if

you give me your full name and mailing address, I promise that your identity will not be publicized,

but you will receive also a free copy of this documentary, Amazing Grace, compliments of our

guest Eric Holmberg and the apologetics group.

But CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York says that some have said to

me that it stands to reason Paul is using hyperbole in the Romans passage that you just

used, because we have other places in the scripture where God calls specific men

righteous, like Noah was called a righteous man in Genesis 6, 9.

How do you explain that?

God does step in,

but all

our

materials,

we

have lots

of

other at

gmail

.com.

I'd be happy

to

send you a

really excellent, I've been out there a lot,

why God could call him, he was

not a righteous man.

Excellent.

I'd like to definitely see that and get that to me as soon as he can.

And it's interesting that you bring up Sodom and Gomorrah, because isn't that another perfect example

of election?

Because God sent angels to rescue Lot and his family, but he didn't

send angels to evangelize everybody door to door in Sodom and Gomorrah.

There were certain people there that he was rescuing out from the whole community.

I mean, isn't that a good example.

Of election right there?

Yeah, although let me say this, God had not even, in fact, even the whole land of Canaan and all the various pagan

tribes that were there, you know, finally it came time with a wickedness between

the halves of the people.

God promised Abraham, said, look, I'm going to give you this land, but it's not going to be for a while, 400 years from

now.

God was waiting, mercy.

And

God

did send not only

Lot,

Lot was these four pagan

kings, and when Abraham went out, guess

what?

He saved their bacon too, you know, he delivered them.

And he would hope that some of those people wouldn't wait a second.

This guy's God, must be God, and maybe became part of his household at some point.

You know, we don't know, the Bible's very, very silent about these things.

But God labored with these fallen gods and

opened a

higher place.

So we have

to remember Nineveh, you know, God sent

Jonah, and then within a few generations, the Ninevites were back.

You know, it's interesting, these cycles, but there comes a point where God says, I'm done.

And we have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania.

By the way, CJ, you're getting a free copy of this documentary too, Compliments of Eric Holmberg and the

Apologetics Group.

Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania asks, would Eric please

inform us what denomination or fellowship he is a part of?

Because I know Calvinists are found in many different groups, Presbyterian, Baptist, Dutch Reformed, and more.

Where would he lie?

Well, I'm a recent transplant to the Cleveland area.

We've actually been,

I think it's

Gray

Church.

You

know, I

personally, well...

And Arnie, you're also getting a free copy of this documentary, Compliments of Eric Holmberg and the

Apologetics Group.

It's interesting that one of the things that comes out in your documentary, that the representatives

of those who believe in the doctrines of grace or Calvinism come from a

diverse background.

And even historically, you even had Dr.

Martin Lloyd -Jones and George Whitefield being Methodists or Calvinists.

And of course, you have Presbyterians and Congregationalists and Baptists and Anglicans,

the 39 articles of religion from the Anglican Church is thoroughly Calvinistic.

Although it's a brief document, nothing in there contradicts the doctrines of grace.

And there are things in there that I think irrefutably teach that.

But this is something that really, where people view it as

divisive teaching, it really is a unifier that extends denominational boundaries, isn't it?

It really is.

I mean, I'm not a believer or

not, but Roman

Catholics are Baptists.

Moving, sliding towards their...

You guys are both Baptists?

No, I am, and Buzz is a Sweden Borgianist.

No, Buzz is a member of a PCA congregation,.

Presbyterian.

See, and Chris still hangs around with me, so it is a unifying thing, the doctrines of grace.

Yes.

But yeah, in fact, what you just said about the Southern Baptist Convention, it's so

amazing to me when I see the militant, vehement anti -Calvinism that

comes from some factors or factions within the Southern Baptist

Convention, when all of the founders were were unilaterally

reformed.

And that is why the brothers who are involved in this documentary, Tom

Askell and Tom Nettles, they're in an organization called the Founders' Ministry, because

they are Southern Baptists who know and are fully aware that the Southern Baptist founders were Calvinists, and they

distribute, reprint and distribute their writings.

You know,

one

of the key

aspects of

doing that is becoming really self -aware of the presuppositions that you just have

naturally, because of the culture and the generation which you've been raised in.

You know, God has called us to become this many -membered body.

God has called us to build a mountain that reaches up into the sky.

You know, like what they

know, people are supposed to

come together and accomplish for the

Son.

He wants us to fit together.

He wants us to complement one another.

He wants iron to love to be the ligaments that

tie us all together.

We are impacted by everything around us,

even the food we eat.

One of the things

about America is one

thinking

guy, I really like him,

he's British, he does these things for the BBC, but basically he analyzes the way,

I can't remember the guy's name

now, he's a modern,

anyway, and we have an

obligation,

and

they

use...

I

deserve.

We're going to go to our final break, and I'm thankful, I'm thanking those who are waiting

patiently still to have their questions asked and answered.

In fact, Reverend Buzz jokingly said to me during a break, how do you know they're waiting patiently?

But we thank those who are, and we'll get to you as soon as we can after the break.

But if you'd like to join them with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away, we'll be right back with Eric Holmberg and our discussion of the documentary Amazing

Grace, the History and Theology of Calvinism.

Don't go away, we're going to be right back after these.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes, our guest has been Eric Holmberg

of the Apologetics Group, and he is one of the producers and the host of

a absolutely superb documentary called Amazing Grace, the History and Theology

of Calvinism, featuring some of the most profound and

prominent figures within Christianity today, teaching

this very precious system of theology in a very understandable way.

This is not ivory tower stuff here.

Everything is broken down into simple language where the, and I hate to use the term

layman, but just so that you understand what I'm saying, the average layman can understand

what they are talking about, and we do have a couple of listeners waiting to have their questions

answered, but we do have a question from Bob.

Well, yes, yes, because I have to sleep tonight, and if I don't remember this, I will not get to

sleep tonight.

Was the name you were trying to think of by any chance Marshall McClure?

It's going to be a long night.

I'll think of it.

As soon as I stop thinking about it, I'll remember it.

Right, okay.

We also have Christopher in Suffolk County, Long Island, who

is asking that my friends who are non

-Calvinists say that the great men known to be Calvinists

by you are really perhaps only using a name they

inherited that is baggage, but they really defied those

teachings by fervently and passionately preaching the gospel to all men.

Are they really, or did they really contradict the teachings they claimed to

embrace?

I guess what he's trying to say is that, as you know, Eric, there are people, there are fundamentalists, for instance,

and by the way, there are fundamentalists who are Calvinists too, but there are fundamentalists who are vehemently

opposed to the doctrines of grace who will say that Spurgeon was

blissfully inconsistent, that his passion to evangelize was in spite of

his Calvinism but not because of it,.

I'm sure that you would wholeheartedly disagree with that.

Oh, absolutely.

Some of the greatest

evangelists

in history

put up their

mouths and

let forth

the gospel, and I

know those guys.

Tony Biano and Jeff Rose are friends of mine, and they are thoroughgoing Calvinists who are street preachers,

and many more that I could mention.

Cy TenBernagate and others who not only are they thoroughgoing Calvinists,

but they take the activity and role of street preaching very seriously.

They don't think that anybody should just get up on a stump and start preaching.

They believe that a person should be called by their local church and do things like that.

If I can make a plug here, Pat Nicarado is another one.

He and I did a video together, open air preaching, and by the

way, he's about to release this as well.

I mean, the confidence comes.

I mean, I know because I did a lot of evangelism with a rock

to hell.

Well, I did.

God, I have to do it just right, or you won't be able to bless it, and you know, the pressure

built once I realized, no, wait a second.

You know, God's in charge.

I got to be faithful,

not only effective evangelism,

but evangelism that...

Well, that's a perfect place for me to mention that there are

denominations that are not Calvinistic, that are very impatient with their

missionaries because of what you just said, because they're relying on the gifts and abilities

and oratory skills of their missionaries to bring in converts, and they will yank

them off the mission field if they haven't reached certain numbers by a very short

period of time, comparatively short period of time, and whereas the person who believes that salvation is of the

Lord, who really believe in the Alpha and the Omega, that

the salvation from first to last is of God, that they will be more

patient historically with the fruit that comes from the evangelistic.

Efforts.

Am I right?

Yeah,

totally agree.

It's a lot

of disciple nations, and discipling nations require more than just that.

Yes, making

it foundational,

like every other Sunday, same

message, just a different

flavor to it.

And what happens is

that the

largest,

as far as a metaphysical system and

ideology, that we are

the internet, we've got gay marriage now,

too.

Greater is He

that's in

us than He

that's in

the world.

These people are

good as your God.

You have to

recall way beyond

just that.

Well, you know, I've got this little figurine of a... well, it looks like a very young boy

with his really sweetsie pie haircut and a little puppy next to a pulpit, you know,

and I use that to show, you know, here's what we're offering in the marketplace of ideas, you know, precious moments type

things.

You know, what kind of a sermon would that guy be preaching?

Well, you just killed a potential advertiser.

Sorry about that.

But, you know, I remember hearing on a Christian

radio, a very well -known evangelist with a radio program,

now with the Lord, say on his program that anybody

would believe if the gospel were presented correctly.

And I got to thinking about all those people who've been praying for loved ones all their life and witnessing to them as

best they could, but because they didn't get the four spiritual laws right, this person didn't come to Christ.

What a guilt trip to put somebody on.

Right.

Well, yeah, Eric, doesn't that say a lot, that kind of a mindset?

That says a lot about what people think about the nature and condition of man,

because they would have to admit, even if they would never be honest enough to openly articulate it

this way, they would have to admit that the reason why a Christian came to

Christ and his neighbor didn't, that sweet little old lady next door who did not come to

Christ, it must be because the person who did was either a little wiser, a little smarter,

a little more self -aware, more humble, more religious,

more annoyed or angered or repulsed by his own sin.

There has to be something in that person that is superior to the neighbor

that they came to Christ.

If you take that view that Buzz just mentioned, that the preacher was saying that anybody,

if the gospel is articulated properly to them, will believe.

Isn't that the only conclusion that you could come to?

Yeah, well, that

way you look

at, I think,

Esau,

so

it means that

God is

beyond our

Well, to take your analogy even further, the way I heard it was, we are appalled today to think that

God would hate Esau when we should be shocked that he loved Jacob.

Just for our listeners who think that this theology we are discussing is a bizarre,

cultic understanding of the scriptures that only a fringe group

have embraced, let me just list a couple of, or I should say, let me

give you a list, a fairly short list, but it's still a lengthy list

for what we have time to tell you, of people that I'm

sure that your own pastors, nine out of ten times, will embrace as heroes of the faith,

no matter what your church cares to label itself as.

These are people who loved and passionately proclaimed the doctrines of sovereign grace.

John Bunyan, the author of Pilgrim's Progress.

John Fox, author of Fox's Book of Martyrs.

John Knox, the founder of Presbyterianism.

John Newton, who wrote the hymn Amazing Grace.

Jonathan Edwards.

Martin Lloyd Jones, a more recent name.

We have Matthew Henry, whose commentaries are found in churches both

Arminian and Calvinistic all over the United States and other parts of the world.

William Carey, considered by many to be the father of modern missions.

William Wilberforce, the slavery abolitionist.

And J .C. Ryle, the great 19th century Anglican bishop.

George Whitfield, the evangelist and preacher, well known for his outdoor

evangelism that we were just describing before, the passion that many Calvinists have to go out into the

streets and the highways and the byways.

Of course, Charles Haddon Spurgeon.

I don't think I mentioned him.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon, who has been slandered for many years as being

somebody who did not believe in the doctrines of sovereign grace.

And the list goes on and on and on.

I'm amazed when I look at the libraries of pastors that I know personally who

are vehemently anti -Calvinist, and some of them you could barely find an Arminian author in the whole

lot.

And even one, I know one pastor in particular who is a vehement anti -Calvinist, and he has a

bookstore in his church.

And it was hard for me to find a non -Calvinist author within the hundreds of books

that he was providing.

But Eric, I know that you believe in sola scriptura, so this doesn't

prove anything.

But doesn't it say a lot as to how these teachings have been embraced

by men who are universally viewed as wise, gifted

men who search the scriptures and handle them well, no matter what side of the aisle of theology

you sit on?

Doesn't that say something?

Just

why,

at

the end

of the day, we

need, you

know,

God, why?

So I

think it

is important.

Sometimes

Calvinists are writing...

Yeah, right.

Well, one of the reasons in my promotion of this interview

that I called this program an April Fool's Day special, in honor of the truth that God has

chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, one of my former pastors said, if you're

proud of being a Calvinist, just remember that God chose you because you're a fool.

That's right, that's right.

And when a Calvinist or somebody who claims to be a Calvinist or a Reformed Christian

is arrogant and proud, he is militating unconsciously, we would hope,

militating against the very things he claims to champion and believe in.

He's contradicting himself.

Well said, I agree.

And we do have, let's see, we have Christian in

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who says, if Christ died only for his elect,

how can we share the gospel freely to all men and tell them that

Jesus Christ died for them?

Well, it's hard.

I think it was Spurgeon who said that there was a yellow stripe up there,

but we don't know.

So I said,

Jesus and

him crucified, I know nothing.

He said, and that God does so

of the world, for the world, for every tribe and tongue within it, which is to bring forth this

many -membered bride, because he loves the world, because he loves his purposes and plans for the world in this bride,

Jesus has paid the ultimate to call forth that bride.

And that's a message that has the power to save, but I would never sit down

and tell somebody.

Yeah, well, I think one of the reasons, I'm sorry, Buzz, but let me just, you can go after this.

I think that one of the reasons that you don't do that is because nobody in the scriptures does.

I was just going to say, what you're saying is actually scriptural.

I just want to make sure that people catch that, because I have checked this out years ago that none of the

evangelistic messages of the scriptures ever started with the love of God, or saying

that Christ died for them.

It was always repent and believe the gospel.

And when they do speak to an audience about Christ dying for them and

loving them, they are speaking to Christians.

They're speaking to the church.

They're not speaking to strangers on a street corner and declaring that.

I can't think of a better way to put a rebellious sinner at ease and make him

continue on his merry way to continue sinning is by telling him, Jesus loves you and died for you.

Well, hey, thanks for letting me know.

I guess I could continue doing what I'm doing then.

Because if indeed that...

Go ahead, I'm sorry.

I can give you lots of examples of pagans who've written songs and rocked that merry man.

You know, I

get up in

a situation where I

don't know what the audience is.

I have this concept,

everybody

walking around,

but we do

know for those appointed by which to save men.

Jesus Christ, Peter preached at

Pentecost.

It wasn't God loves you, it was everybody in

charge.

In fact, I have a friend who wrote a book against Calvinism.

He's from a Church of Christ background.

Dr. Efflegard Smith, he wrote a book called Troubling Questions for Calvinists and the Rest of Us

was the subtitle.

And he, when it came to Acts 13, 48, said, I can honestly say that I have no

explanation for this text.

And those who are non -Calvinist, he thinks, often twist the scriptures to make that text fit

into their theology.

But he could not do so and have a clear conscience about it, even though he

disagreed with us.

But I thank you so much, Eric.

I look forward to having you back.

And if you could let our listeners know one last time how they can get a hold of you.

Yeah, well, our website is theapologeticsgroup .com,

The

Apologetic

Study Guide for your Sodom Revisited.

Great.

And we're out of time, brother.

We're out of time.

And I hope that everybody always remembers for the rest of their lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior

than you are a sinner.

Have a blessed and safe weekend.

And we look forward to your questions next week on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.