August 23, 2021 Show with Virgil Walker & Darrell Bernard Harrison on “Just Thinking: About the State”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,

Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 23rd day of August 2021.

Once again, I want to thank all of you in my audience who have been pouring in notes of condolences and promises that you will keep me and my family in prayer after the loss of my oldest brother,

John, at the age of 76 last week, who was battling critical stage emphysema, cancer, and pneumonia, and I thank all of you,

I can't thank you enough for your prayers. I ask that you continue to pray for all of us, and especially perhaps my late brother's widow,

Jan, but please continue to keep all of us in prayer.

Thank you so much for your Christlike, heartfelt compassion and concern. Today, I am so delighted to have back on the program two of my very favorite guests, and that is no exaggeration,

Virgil Walker, who is Executive Director of Operations at G3 Ministries and co -host of the

Just Thinking podcast, and Daryl Bernard Harrison, who is Dean of Social Media at Grace To You, the media ministry of Dr.

John MacArthur, and he is the other half of the Just Thinking podcast, and today, we are going to be addressing their new book, which is going to be in print any day now,

Just Thinking About the State. We'll also be announcing the upcoming G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome back to Iron Trump and Zion Radio, Virgil Walker and Daryl Bernard Harrison.

Thanks so much for having us, Chris. Chris, thanks for having us, and we echo the sentiments of your audience in the passing of your older brother, so please accept our sincerest condolences on your and your family's loss.

Yeah, I really appreciate that more than you will ever know. And Virgil, for those of our listeners,

I'm sure it will probably just be a tiny percentage of my listeners who are unfamiliar with you and G3, but why don't you tell our listeners about you and your fairly recently appointed position as Executive Director of Operations at G3 Ministries?

Yeah, I'm excited to be here at G3 Ministries, known probably to most people as G3 Conferences that have just transformed into a ministry -based conference, really wanting to provide a lot of resources and materials for others to participate in and experience.

I've been here since, gosh, I came on board in December, but actually moved out here around the

June time frame, and so it was about that time that I got kind of boots on the ground, so to speak, here in Georgia.

This is Daryl's old stomping ground, so I'm excited to be where my brother

Daryl is. My thought is that no one state can handle both of us in the same state at the same time.

So, it was in God's providence that he moved Daryl out to California, recognizing that I would soon be here in the offices of G3 Ministries here in Douglasville, Georgia.

So no, couldn't be more excited about what God is doing in and with G3 Ministries through G3 Conferences and the like, so thanks for allowing me to shout that out.

Why don't you tell us a little bit about the upcoming G3 Conference, where both you and Daryl will be on the speaking roster.

Yeah, I couldn't be more excited about that, the upcoming G3 Conference. I've been a part of G3 Conferences since 2017, and both

Daryl and I have kind of tag -teamed. I'd be there one year and, you know, hoping that Daryl would be able to be, and then finally in 2020, we both were there together, which was an absolute blast doing a live

Just Thinking podcast during the G3 Conference, and this year, it is absolutely going to be lights out amazing.

We anticipate larger audiences than ever before. We anticipate more than 6 ,000 attendees at this year's conference.

We have more than 20 speakers from around the country and literally around the world that will be participating as a part of the

G3 Conferences. Daryl and I, along with a number of other folks from John MacArthur, from James White, from Stephen Lawson, Dr.

Stephen Lawson, from Votie Balcombe, I mean, you name it. Everybody who's anybody in evangelicalism, so to speak, will be a part of this particular conference.

Dr. John MacArthur will be speaking one night, just a whole host of different events going on in addition to the major conference.

I will have pre -conference schedules and things of that nature that are available. If anybody has not gotten a chance to register,

I'd encourage them to not walk, but run to their nearest spot where they can get access to the internet and jump on g3men .org

and get registered for any one of our pre -conferences that we're going to have available, our

Exhibitional Preaching Conference that we'll have available, as well as the G3 National Conference.

It's going to be an amazing time. Amen. And you're going to be hearing a lot more about the G3 Conference because I am going to be,

God willing, continuing to interview the speakers that will be featured there, as I already have interviewed most of them, but I'm planning on interviewing some for a second and third time and some for the first time.

So keep your ears open for more information about the G3 Conference.

And, of course, we advertise this wonderful event every day in the show, and I'm so thrilled to be manning an

Iron Trip and Zion Exhibitors booth for the fourth year in a row at the G3 Conference. This is really the highlight of my year.

That's not an exaggeration. That's not hyperbole flattery to you, Virgil. This is the truth.

It's the highlight of my year. And I'm very excited about it. Now, Darrell Bernard Harrison, you are in the same position, really, as Virgil, in that the great likelihood is the vast majority of my audience already knows who you are, and they already know what

Grace To You Ministries is and who John MacArthur is. But why don't you tell our audience about, for the sake of those who are new

Christians or first -time listeners who are unfamiliar with you, tell our listeners about your recent newly appointed position as Dean of Social Media at Grace To You.

Yeah, thanks for the opportunity, Chris. And let me just say good afternoon to those in your listening audience, wherever they may be listening from.

Yeah, that's correct. So my formal title here at Grace To You is Dean of Social Media, and under that title,

I'm responsible for helping develop and execute the social media strategy for Grace To You, just making sure that everything we do on social media aligns with the purpose statement of Grace To You, which is simply to make available the teaching ministry, the teachings and sermons and other resources from John MacArthur available to as many people around the world as possible.

And to the extent that we can leverage social media to do that, that falls within my purview here at Grace To You.

For those of you, of your listeners rather, who may be unfamiliar with Grace To You, Grace To You is the media ministry of John MacArthur, and basically what we do is we at Grace To You are responsible for making available over the

Internet and through other means the preaching ministry of John MacArthur, which John, when

John preaches from the pulpit of Grace Community Church here in Southern California, we make those sermons available on the

Grace To You website at gty .org. So if your listeners want to hear any of John MacArthur's, we have more than 3 ,500 of John MacArthur's sermons available on the

Grace To You website, all downloadable for free. You can either listen to them online for free or you can download them for free at gty .org.

And John MacArthur has been the pastor at Grace Community Church for 52 years now.

His first sermon was delivered there in February of 1969. His wife

Patricia and John reside in Southern California, and it's just an honor and a privilege for me to be here and be a part of the team here at Grace To You, which

I have been now since January of 2019, when my wife

Melissa and I relocated from Atlanta out here to Southern California. Well, I also don't know if you are aware of this,

Darrell, but your executive director, Phil Johnson, is the most frequently interviewed guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in our history since launching in 2005.

I did not know that, but I'm not surprised. Listen, Phil Johnson, as you said,

Chris, was the executive director here at Grace To You. Phil Johnson is a brilliant theologian.

He is a brilliant theologian. He has a mind like few individuals

I've ever met. And on the flip side, Phil is such a personable, humble, down -to -earth guy.

I mean, at the same time where he expresses and exhibits a brilliant theological mind, he's also that guy that you could just sit down at a

Waffle House and have some hash browns or a waffle with and just kind of shoot the breeze with.

Does it have to be Waffle House? For Phil Johnson, yes, it does have to be

Waffle House. That much I can tell you about Phil. One of the reasons

I asked you that is that there is a Waffle House here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and for some bizarre reason, even though it's on one of the most major highways in Carlisle and in Pennsylvania, for that matter, the parking lot is almost always empty.

And I've never seen a Waffle House with an empty parking lot before. You know something,

Chris? I want to just take an aside here and steer away from the Waffle House for just a second.

Me being from Atlanta, being from the South, listen, I'm used to seeing a

Waffle House literally at every highway intersection. So I'm not surprised that it's located there on a major freeway.

However, would you know, speaking of did you know, did you know that Carlisle, Pennsylvania is the number three domestic market for the

Just Thinking Podcast behind Houston and Dallas? You're kidding me. You're kidding.

No, I kid you not. Carlisle, Pennsylvania is our number three listener market domestically for the

Just Thinking Podcast. Houston is Texas is number one. Los Angeles is number two. And then

Carlisle, Pennsylvania is number three. Wow. That is something. I'm excited about that.

We got we have to have a monument built to you and I'm actually.

If you put up a monument, Chris, they'll probably want to tear it down. Somebody's going to remember those

Black Lives Matter episodes we did. I want to tear that monument down. That's right.

Well, I'm amazed and I'm angry that there isn't a significant and adequate monument to Jim Thorpe, the great

Native American Olympian and athlete. Somebody told me there's some kind of a plaque somewhere, but he deserves a at least a six foot statue as far as I'm concerned.

And who knows? Maybe I'll even one day rally up a fundraiser to have one erected.

But but he was born here for our listeners who are wondering why I'm talking about Jim Thorpe. Yeah. And, you know, Chris, I'm a huge fan.

I'm a huge I'm somewhat of a center file and I'm a huge fan of classic films. And one of my favorite films is where Burt Lancaster played the role.

Oh, wow. Yes. Yes. Played the lead role in that biopic. Isn't that racial appropriation?

Well, it would be today. Today. Yeah. Absolutely. It would be.

Yeah. He played the role of Jim Thorpe in that film. And it's a very well done film. One of my favorite black and white films of all time.

Well, it's very humble of you to give Burt Lancaster such kudos because he was a vehement anti -Christian, just to let you know.

Yeah. But I mean, what would you expect out of Hollywood? That's right. Well, he was a great actor, though.

He was a great actor. I'll give him props for that. Before I even go into our main theme, which

I'm very excited about, your new book that is going to be released in a matter of days, Just Thinking About the

State, published by Founders Press. And by the way, another bit of trivia, Daryl, Tom Askle, my dear friend, going back to the

I'd say the late 1980s, perhaps, he was the first person to tell me about you.

And this is before you even hooked up with Virgil in the Just Thinking podcast. I think

Just Thinking might have been just a blog. Yeah. And he said, you've got to get Daryl Bernard Harrison on your show.

I just thought I'd let you know that. Yeah, I appreciate that, Chris. Yeah. Tom and I go back about four years, but we need to come back on for me to be able to tell you that story and how that all, how

Tom connects to my being here at Grace To You and me meeting him a few years ago.

It's just a great story about how God brought us together and how God worked out of our first meeting one another a few years ago.

Amen. Well, the thing I wanted to ask, a couple of things I wanted to ask you both before we go into our main theme, just because so many people have asked me this when they've heard you on this broadcast.

The number one is they wanted me to tell them how to most accurately describe the theological positions you both hold.

Like, for instance, I've heard, are those guys Reformed Baptists? Are they Presbyterian? Are they Dispensational Calvinists?

On and on and on. But if you care to articulate, we'll start with Daryl, and then we'll go to Virgil, how you best like to describe yourself theologically in a summary form.

Yeah, I mean, if I had to, if I had to leverage one of those categories, I'd probably just describe myself as a

Reformed Baptist. When my wife Melissa and I moved here from Atlanta, we were actually members of a

Reformed Baptist congregation in Conyers, Georgia, which is about 45 miles east of Atlanta.

And so it was within that congregation that my, which we were members there for five years.

But we came out of a Southern Baptist denomination church.

I was a member of Charles Stanley's Church, First Baptist Atlanta, for 23 years. But when

I was introduced to Reformed theology through hearing people like John MacArthur and Dr.

R .C. Sproul, you know, my convictions became more aligned with Reformed theology and the doctrines of grace.

However, I would draw the line with respect to Reformed theology in that I am not a

Pato Baptist. I do not subscribe to Pato Baptism. So I disagree with some of my

Reformed brethren there. But as far as my convictions are concerned, theologically, I would probably fall more aligned with the

Reformed Baptist category. Now, who was your pastor in Conyers, Georgia? His name is

Butch Rumble. What a great name. Pastor Butch Rumble, just a brilliant, brilliant pastor, brilliant expositor,

Georgia Tech graduate. And he's just one example of how the

Holy Spirit can gift a man who didn't go to seminary, but who is one of the best expositors

I've ever heard. The church there is Rockdale Community Church. If anyone happens to be listening to me within the metro

Atlanta area, Rockdale Community Church is located in Conyers, Georgia, pastored by Pastor Butch Rumble.

And just a great pastor, a great preacher, and a great brother. Got to get him on the show then.

He will be a wonderful guest for you, Chris. And I'm sure there are many professional wrestlers very envious of his name.

Yes. Virgil, tell us about yourself in a summary form, theologically.

Sure, I got a chance to meet Pastor Butch Rumble at the Southern Baptist Convention during that time at an event that I think

Founders was hosting. And I got a chance to run into him. He's every bit of his name. Just a short guy with just an intense, passionate love for the

Lord and a love for God's people. And I think when you meet him or see him, that's immediate. He recognized me and knew that I had worked with Darrell and immediately made known to me who he was.

Just a great, great guy. From a standpoint of summary, from my point of view,

I come from such an eclectic background. Darrell and I talked about our backgrounds on the show and how varied they are theologically.

It's been a journey from being a part of the prosperity gospel and all of that, coming out of that, coming out of a lot of Pentecostalism and the like into eventually

Southern Baptist circles where I was there in Omaha, Nebraska. I was attending an

SBC church there, a very traditionalist SBC church there and was actually serving as a discipleship pastor there.

Prior to coming on staff, though, I had really cut my teeth on Reformed Theology and had really kind of...

It's funny how that came to be. There was a gentleman who was at the church who introduced me to a book by Dr.

R .C. Sproles called What is Reformed Theology? And so, upon reading that, really came into an understanding of Reformed Theology and a

Reformed view of Soteriology and really just took a deep dive into Scripture.

So, this is my... Being here in Douglasville at Praise Mill Church, this is actually my first time being in a

Reformed Baptist setting. And again, I could not articulate more how much

I feel like I'm finally home and really enjoy the worship, enjoy the purpose of worship and the purpose, the thoughtfulness about worship services and just a really

Reformed Ecclesiology. We were just having conversations around that today as we just came out of experiencing the

Lord's Day. So, if I were to describe myself, that would probably be it. Reformed Baptist to the point that Daryl made.

I don't hold to any kind of a Pato Baptist idea. Definitely Believer's Baptism is the way that I see that in the traditional sense of Reformed Baptist Theology and the like.

And so, that's kind of my deal in a nutshell. I don't have a problem with embracing being

Reformed or Reformed Baptist, but I'd argue that my positions really carry weight from a standpoint of what

Scripture has to say about particular issues as it pertains to subjects we interact with on our podcast.

By the way, that book the Lord used to open up your eyes to the

Reformed faith, what is the Reformed faith it's currently called, right? The R .C.

Sproul book? Yes, yes, yes. What is Reformed Theology? Yeah, that book used to be called

Grace Unknown. And I love that book, and I gave it to a

Pentecostal elder back in the 1990s, I believe it was. He is a dear friend,

Dan Buttafuoco. He's also a sponsor of this show. And I gave that book to him on Christmas Eve, and he looked at me and he said,

Are you kidding me? You're giving me propaganda on Christmas Eve as a gift?

All right, I'll take it. I'll read it. He was very dismissive of it. He called me up on New Year's Day that year and said,

Chris, I haven't been to sleep. I read the book cover to cover. I agree with it. I'm Reformed now. And he is still

Reformed, although he is still Pentecostal. He is theologically Reformed when it comes to soteriology.

That's awesome. So if you're listening, here's my shout out to you, Dan. And I hope to see you again soon for a time of fellowship.

We're going to our first break right now, and when we come back, we're going to dive into the book. Oh, wait, one more question.

I'll ask it now and have you guys answer it when you come back. But the other question that I frequently get asked is,

Do you two disagree on any significant issues? And we'll have you respond to that when we come back, and after that question is answered, we will dive right into a discussion of your book,

Just Thinking About the State. If anybody has any questions, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com.

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G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia Thursday, September 30th through Saturday, October 2nd.

The theme this year is Christ is supreme over all. My friend Chris Arnzen and I will be joined by several of our other friends including

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More than 20 other speakers will be joining us and the lineup this year includes my pastor, John MacArthur.

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.org forward slash podcast Welcome back. This is

Chris Arnson your host of Iron Trip and Zion Radio. If you just tuned us in our guests today for the full two hours are

Virgil Walker Executive Director of Operations at G3 Ministries and also

Daryl Bernard Harrison Dean of Social Media at Grace to You. They are both co -hosts of the

Just Thinking podcast. If you have a question about our theme today Just Thinking about the state our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

c h r i s a r n z e n at gmail .com Give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. We will broaden the theme for questions to anything involved with the woke movement critical race theory or anything similar that has been a frequent topic of discussion on the

Just Thinking podcast by our guests today. Before the break brethren you probably remember me asking another frequently asked question that I receive from my listeners about you two is are there any major areas of disagreement that you have with one another and let's start with Virgil this time.

Biggest area of disagreement and that's since I mean that's been ongoing but now that I've moved into what's known as SEC country is football.

I have to I have to remind Darrell that my Oklahoma Sooners are just the team to beat.

Now he's going to he's going to lay claim to the Georgia Bulldogs but the reality is that is not his team.

That is not the team who he carries water for and he knows it and so that's that's probably the largest area of disagreement.

I'm going to let him tell you who his team is but that's probably the biggest area of disagreement for Darrell and myself.

Yeah we we have a let me put it this way we have a difference of preference and and I'm going to throw see

I'm going to throw Virgil curveball right here so I'm not going to even pick up on his football college football reference. I'm going to just let that stay where it is.

I'm going to let that dog lie right where it is right there and I'm just going to I'm going to keep it

I'm going to keep it within the context in which I think the listener asked the question. We do have a difference of preference in Bible translations.

We do have a difference of preference in Bible translations. Virgil prefers the in public.

He prefers the ESV. So when you so when you want to talk about something that's not my team see the

ESV really isn't his team but in public that's his team but we're not going to mention what his private

Bible translation team is going to keep this public my preference from Bible translation is see how

I throw that back at you my my my preference of Bible translation is the

New American Standard which I tongue -in -cheek call for those who listen to the

Just Thinking Podcast they'll be familiar with my tongue -in -cheek reference of the New American Standard Bible as the non -Armenian

Standard Bible translation but yes Virgil prefers the

ESV in public but I prefer the NASB I knew there was a reason

I like you better than Virgil because the NASB is our major sponsor of this program in fact

I've got to get you if you're willing to record an ad just like I have the other ads pastors scholars and theologians who love the

NASB who prefer it giving their little plug in the ad so maybe we can work on that yeah we can work on that Chris be glad to oh great

I'm surprised you didn't say that you were a fan of the Princeton Tigers since you're a graduate of Princeton University not a fan of the

Princeton Tigers and just to correct one point I'm not a graduate of Princeton Seminary I'm a graduate of there's a special theological program at Princeton Seminary that's called the

Black Theology and Leadership Institute the Black Theology Institute at Princeton Seminary so I am a graduate of that program that's out of Princeton Seminary ah okay right well

I was often wondering how you survived a theologically leftist institute like Princeton University now

I understand yes well the program itself that I was enrolled in that I was a part of a cohort of is deeply entrenched the program exists to teach

Black Liberation Theology this is a program that's at Princeton Seminary the

Princeton Seminary of Gerhardus Voss the Princeton Seminary of B .B. Warfield the Princeton Seminary formerly of Jay Gresham Machin now has a full -fledged endowed program that teaches the

Black Liberation Theology of James Cone so how did you survive in that? well um this my answer to that question

Chris is going to reveal to you and your listeners an aspect of who I am that not many people know about so I have a tendency from a persona standpoint personality standpoint

I'm really rather introvert I would much rather stay behind the scenes of things I'm not really an out front shine the spotlight on me kind of person

I'm really not however when it comes to matters of truth I can be a pitbull

I can be a pitbull so what got me into Princeton when they launched the

Black Theology of Leadership program they were offering on an application basis 50 fellowships 50 fellowships that they were going to award to their

Black Theology of Leadership institute and this was a global application process so 50 scholarships anyone from around the world could apply and I was awarded one of the fellowships what intrigued me about the program was the fact that I knew that I did not agree with the theology of James Cone I did not buy into Black Black theology

Black liberation theology I knew enough of it to know that that was not biblical orthodox theology so I applied for the fellowship in order to bring an orthodox voice to that program and I was accepted

I was awarded one of the fellowships and within my cohort I was the only non subscriber to Black liberation theology that was in the cohort and my cohort was comprised of THMs PhDs from Harvard Divinity School Yale Divinity School Chicago Theological Seminary Duke Theological Seminary Union Theological Seminary so I was totally outnumbered but by the time

I graduated I had been given the nickname

Doctrine Daryl because I kept bringing people back to what the scriptures said

I was totally outnumbered probably 70 to 1 and I'm not exaggerating 70 to 1 but the truth

I was there to defend the truth I was there to defend the truth but it's amazing how woke

Princeton Seminary now may be second only to Union Theological Seminary is arguably the wokest seminary in America right now

I believe it unfortunately yes unfortunately when you look at the history of Princeton Theological Seminary and the theological giants that have exited the hallways that was venerable institution it's just unbelievable the theological world view that now is being propagated at that institution it's just unbelievable

I'm sure the best thing about that seminary is I'm sorry Virgil are you saying something I'm sorry

I thought I heard Virgil saying something I'm sure the best thing about that seminary now is the cemetery nearby yes so if you're ever in Princeton New Jersey you must go by the cemetery one of the most historical underrated historical sites in America you must go by the

Princeton Seminary not just to see the gravesites of some of the brilliant professors and theologians who taught there but the

Battle of Princeton if you're a history nerd like myself the Battle of Princeton is one of the most under taught under appreciated events in the history of this nation that no one knows about so if you're ever in Princeton New Jersey it's a must that you go by the

Princeton Seminary you can also see the house where Albert Einstein stayed when he taught there a lot of history there but from a theological standpoint

Princeton Seminary is a shell of itself it's a shell of what it was historically

I'm assuming the Battle of Princeton was Revolutionary War yes that's correct well

Virgil I feel like an idiot that I didn't have you guys give a little description of the

Just Thinking Podcast so Virgil why don't you give our audience a little information that wets their appetite to begin listening if they aren't already sure the

Just Thinking Podcast really was one of those things Darryl mentioned earlier a little bit about his personality which is one of being an introvert and that was definitely the case when we myself and the producer

Dwayne Atkinson approached him about doing the podcast he had been writing for years as you mentioned that earlier that Tom Askell had been familiar with his writing and as a result of the blog

Dwayne had identified Darryl as somebody he wanted to talk to an interview on his podcast on the bar right after that interview

I got a phone call from Dwayne Dwayne and I had worked together on a couple of other projects and he said hey this guy

Darryl Harrison don't know if you know him but you guys have a lot in common you kind of sound alike and have a tendency to think alike about certain theological matters you guys ought to connect he said

I've got an interview coming out and you definitely want to check that out so I said absolutely listen to the interview thought

Dwayne did a fantastic job and asked for an opportunity to circle back with Darryl Darryl and I did one kind of where I just interviewed

Darryl and got his feedback and insights on different things and for me it was just like talking to a brother that I hadn't connected with in a long time the flow was very natural and I told him if he ever wanted to take his blog writing and produce a podcast based upon the blog that while I didn't have the time to play the lead host

I definitely would love to come alongside him and to help him amplify his voice to which he graciously responded no way not going to do it never happened and so I have a pretty serious sales background and I see one no as just an opportunity for a yes in another way and definitely circle back with him and let him know that I was here to be a resource in any way shape or form and then providentially through some time and thought on his part

I'm sure he'll be able to share with you what his thoughts were there that we ended up starting what became known as the

Just Thinking Podcast we started at the worst time to start a podcast in the month of December a little over three years ago and our plan was never to get as large as we had our goal was just to glorify

God and what we produced and to examine cultural political theological issues through the lens of a biblical world view and that's what we come together to do each and every week that we were working on the show and God's providence based upon what our listeners have come to know us and I think there's a combination of a number of things one just the personality they feel like they're listening to someone that they would like to know or like to hang out with or like to get to know we have a lot of fun we talk a lot about different issues that are unrelated to the subject matter that we take on but also we take a very serious and pointed look and an in -depth look it is an expositional podcast it is a long -form podcast we unpack these issues in a very in -depth robust theological framework and so I think our listeners have come to enjoy what's become known as the

Just Thinking podcast. And if anybody wants to find out more about the

Just Thinking podcast go to justthinking .me justthinking. m as in Michael e as in Edward that's justthinking .me

by the way I wouldn't feel too bad about Darrell's initial response to you

Virgil. My very first conversation with Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries in 1995 after I invited him to participate in a debate

I was attempting to orchestrate between a Reformed Protestant and a

Roman Catholic. Dr. White's very first words to me after a long pause of silence on the phone was how did you get this number?

I wouldn't feel too bad. All righty well let's dive into the book.

This is a book that is very timely and it is a book that I am sure is going to not only get some of our brethren pumped up but also get the feathers ruffled as it were of other brethren because this is an issue the church's relationship to the state this is an issue that has a lot of division in the body of Christ not only

Christendom at large but even within Reformed Baptist circles or theologically

Reformed circles in general Presbyterians and so on. There's a lot of division and disagreement perhaps even in the same pew.

In fact I happen to know that there are people in my own congregation that don't necessarily disagree with the elders approach on matters involving church and state and the church where I'm a member but Darrell what was the catalyst other than perhaps

Tom Askel asking you to do it what was the catalyst behind you saying hey I've got to write or we

Virgil and I have got to write a book on the state. Yeah how the book came to be is really an interesting story.

I mean Tom definitely Tom Askel definitely has a he played a significant role in the book coming to fruition even from the idea stage.

The book isn't so much Chris something that Virgil and I wrote. Virgil mentioned earlier that the

Just Thinking podcast is a long form expositional podcast and he also alluded to the fact that our listeners have come to appreciate the fact that Virgil and I do meticulous research.

That's one of the reasons we average about one episode a month because we take the time and the effort to do meticulous research on whatever the topic we may happen to be addressing in a particular episode.

That relates to the book in that the meticulous research that Virgil and I do we documented verbatim.

I mean we actually write out verbatim word for word every word that you hear on an episode of the

Just Thinking podcast. So in what Virgil and I viewed as just preparation for episodes of the

Just Thinking podcast as Dr. Tom Askell heard them, he saw and he recognized and appreciated the detail and the depth in which we dealt with these episodes.

What he saw in that that sort of morphed and translated to him said hey these guys could easily transition their podcast transcripts into narrative form for one or several books.

So the very idea of taking content from our podcast episodes and then translating those into a book was something that Virgil and I never thought of.

In fact I knew by the title Just Thinking the State, I knew this had to be the first in a series.

Yes, it's the first in a trilogy. So Just Thinking the State hits stores on August 31st.

The second and third books in the trilogy, the second will be Just Thinking about Ethnicity.

We don't have a publication date for that yet. And the third will be Just Thinking about the

Church. Those two subsequent titles will follow the same model as Just Thinking about the

State. Virgil and I will select various topics of episodes that we've covered on the

Just Thinking podcast and translate those into chapters for those subsequent books. But we credit

Tom Askall and founders Jared Longshore, Carrie Regnier, Hannah Askall, Sarah Askall, the team there at founders for helping to number one just come up with the idea of translating our podcast content into those books.

And as a result of them having the idea we partner with them, this is about a year long process that has now come to fruition with the publication of Just Thinking about the book, which is going to hit stores next week on August 31st.

Oh, praise God. Well, we'll be keeping you updated on that, folks. And we are going to our midway break right now.

I ask of your patience because the midway break as always is a longer than normal break in the middle of the show because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, is required of the FCC to localize

Iron Sharp and Zion Radio and all of their programming geographically to Lake City, Florida.

They do so by airing their own public service announcements. And while they do that, we air our globally heard commercials.

So please use this time wisely. Write down as much information as you possibly can provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them or at the very least respond to them by thanking them that you heard about them from Iron Sharp and Zion Radio.

Remember, folks, we depend on our advertisers to exist. So please respond to our advertisers at least by thanking them for sponsoring the show whenever you can.

Also, use this time to write down questions for Daryl Bernard Harrison and Virgil Walker and send them to ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state of residence, and country of residence.

If you live outside the U .S .A., don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages. I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

My friend Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharp and Zion Radio, and I are headed down to Atlanta, Georgia once again for the

G -3 Conference. This year's G -3 will be held Thursday, September 30th through Saturday, October 2nd on the theme

Christ is Supreme Over All. I'll be joined by over 20 other speakers and musicians to lead in the worship of God through preaching, teaching and singing, including

John MacArthur, Phil Johnson, Conrad M. Bayway, Daryl Bernard Harrison, and Virgil Walker.

For details, visit G -3 Conference dot com. That's G -3 Conference dot com. Chris Arnson and I hope to see you

September 30th through October 2nd at G -3 21. This is James White reminding you that Christ is

Supreme Over All. When Iron Sharp and Zion Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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Good to be back, Chris. I always enjoy our time here. I have to tell you, one of the better interviewers out there, and I've been doing this for 30, more than 30 years.

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Before I return to Daryl Bernard Harrison and Virgil Walker, I just have a few announcements to make.

First of all, as I said at the beginning of the program, I thank everybody who had been praying for my brother

John, and also those of you who have been pouring in notes of condolences to me and my family since my dear brother

John went home to be with the Lord last week. And I do believe he is with the Lord.

He gave very credible evidence in his profession of faith. He believably let me know that he was truly trusting in Christ during those last weeks of his life.

So I am confident I will see him in glory one day. I thank all of you for praying for me and for my family as we continue to grieve this loss.

Also pray for John's widow, Jan, who is in the hospital in critical condition with COVID pneumonia.

Things seem to be proving slightly for her, but she's not out of the woods.

She's still in the hospital. They don't know when they are going to release her. Please continue to pray for Jan, my brother's widow.

Also, folks, if you are a man in ministry leadership, whether you are a pastor, an elder—and by the way,

I believe that those are the same office—whether you are a deacon, a parachurch leader, whatever kind of position you hold in leadership as a man,

I invite you to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio free pastor's luncheon on Monday, September 27, 11 a .m.

to 2 p .m. at the Bongiorno Conference Center in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. My guest speaker will be

Dr. Conrad M. Bayway, who I believe truly is the most powerful preacher alive on the planet

Earth, and that is not an exaggeration. I'm sure my guests, Daryl and Virgil, would agree with that assessment, wouldn't you, brothers?

Well, once I'm off the clock, I may agree with you, but when I'm on the clock, it's John MacArthur. Very, very honest answer.

But yeah, he is extraordinary. We love Brother Conrad. We love him.

Great preacher. Enjoy him. We're looking forward to having him at the G3 Conference and cannot wait.

He's also going to be a part of an expositional preaching workshop that we're going to do pre -conference, and so you definitely want to be a part of that.

Again, a man of such great stature, taking the time to teach other young men how to exposit the

Scriptures. It'll be a wonderful opportunity for some young pastor out there. Great, and that website for the

G3 Conference is g3conference .com, g3conference .com. But if you are interested in attending my free

Pastor's Luncheon several days before that, Monday, September 27th, just send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

and put Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line. It's absolutely free of charge. There's no hidden agenda, no ulterior motive.

My precious late wife, Julie, came up with this idea in the 1990s, and I have been doing this every year ever since, and I am keeping to her rules.

My late wife said, I don't want you ever selling a thing at these luncheons. This is to be a gift, a treat to men in ministry, where they are going to be fed, they're going to hear a great speaker, and they're going to be given free gifts.

And every year, the major Christian publishers all over the United States and the United Kingdom have been supplying me with free books to give away to pastors.

Every publisher gives me a hundred free copies of a specific title I select so that every man in attendance can go home with one of those copies.

So therefore, everybody in attendance is going to be leaving with dozens of free books, a heavy sack of brand new free books.

It's all free of charge, folks. If you live near Carlisle, or you can manage on getting there, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

and put Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line. Also, folks, if you love the show and you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, please go to ironsharpensironradio .com,

click support, then click, click to donate now. You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card. We are in urgent need of your help.

The coronavirus pandemic hysteria has hurt our listeners, many of our listeners, very badly, which means that we have been hurt financially very badly.

The giving has gone down dramatically. We need you to help us replace that which was lost.

Please, if you love the show and you're able to help, go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now.

You can advertise by sending me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put advertising in the subject line, as long as whatever it is you want to promote is compatible with what

I believe. Also, folks, I always want you to remember, never siphon money away from your regular giving to your own local church in order to give to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Never do that. I started this show and continue to conduct this show with a primary reason to not only, of course, first and foremost glorify

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I never want to harm or hinder the local pastor and the local church in any way, including financially, so don't siphon money away from your giving to them in order to give to us.

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Those two things are commands of God and provide for church and family. Providing for my show is not a command of God.

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Go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click to donate.

Now, if you prefer snail mail, there will be a physical address on the screen where you can mail checks made payable to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Last but not least, if you are not a member of a biblically faithful, theologically sound church, no matter where on the planet earth you live,

I may be able to help you find a church, possibly even just minutes from where you live. I have helped people from all over the planet earth find churches that are biblically faithful.

I have extensive lists of churches spanning the globe that are biblically faithful. So, if you are in that category, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

and put I need a church in the subject line. Whether you need a church home where you will permanently become a member, or whether you are on vacation in need of a church, or if you have a family, friend, and loved one who needs a church, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address to send in a question to Daryl Bernard Harrison and Virgil Walker, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. We have a couple of listener questions that I will read to you.

Let's see, first of all, we have Terrence, who is from Miri, Sarawak, Malaysia, and I hope

I'm spelling the city and state Miri and Sarawak correctly. Malaysia, I'm pretty sure

I'm pronouncing it correctly. Terrence says, referencing

Vody Baucom's book, obviously, he says, the fault line seems to be, one says it's critical race theory, all or nothing, while the other says parts of CRT can be a tool redeemed for the church.

The latter seems to be using woke language, my privilege, systemic racism,

I'm here to listen to you, he has in quotes, to assure or reach out to woke people or people who don't know

CRT, but can appreciate Christian humility. Is it possible to redeem woke language for Christian ministry on race relations?

And let's start with Darrell. No. Why am I not shocked?

Why am I not shocked? The answer to that question is no, because, and I don't mean to simplify the question, but it really is a simple answer to that question.

I think the answer to the question is actually intrinsic within the question. Because what critical race theory does is it co -ops language, it co -ops certain vernacular, certain universal vernacular, not biblical vernacular, but certain universal vernacular, such as equity, equality, justice, mercy.

Those are terms that you will find in the scriptures, but they don't mean the same thing.

So when you ask the question, can anything about critical race theory be redeemed? Especially when you're talking to someone like Virgil and me who see the entire world through a biblical paradigm, the answer is no, because what critical race theory does is regurgitates historical events and then frames those events within a current, they attempt to frame those events within a current present day narrative to give the impression that the

America, especially if not the world, the America of 2021 is still the America of 1861.

And that's not true. Critical race theory is a very, it is posited by critical race theorists as a very highly academic, very forensic, multi -syllabic, exclusive club, which is why the episode of the

Just Thinking podcast that Virgil and I did on took us three and a half hours. That could have easily been a seven hour episode when you break down the pillars and the tenants of critical race theory.

What critical race theory attempts to argue?

Scripture deals with in the most fundamental way that it can possibly be dealt with.

And that is as a sin issue, if you take critical race theory and give them the benefit of the doubt that there has been ethnic discrimination in America, but what do you expect from sinners?

It's like we point, first of all, I pointed out this repeatedly, every country on the face of this planet is and has always been populated by sinners.

But when you look at the history of ethnic prejudice in the world, there are other nations across the history of this planet that have been exponentially more egregious in that area that America has.

But again, to get back to the listener's question, there is nothing redemptive in critical race theory.

Critical race theory is rooted in Marxism. It is rooted in socialism. It is rooted in ethnic prejudice and hatred.

It is rooted in ethnic partiality. It is rooted in ethnic division. All of those things which scripture clearly and unequivocally speak against.

So I appreciate the listener's question. However, the answer to that question is no, there is nothing within wokeism, within the language, the vernacular of either wokeism, critical race theory, intersectionality.

There's nothing there that is redemptive within a biblical context.

Virgil, any further comments? I mean, Daryl pretty much nailed it on the head.

I mean, we've said often on our podcast, wokeism has an unbiblical anthropology.

It has an unbiblical hermeneutology. It has an unbiblical eschatology.

It has an unbiblical soteriology. I mean, everywhere you turn, there's nothing redeemable about the ideas.

The presuppositions that it holds require us to ignore what scripture has to say about all of humanity and simply target that toward one ethnic group of people, particularly white people.

That white people have an original sin known as racism for which they'll never be able to eradicate. And in order to pay penance, because repentance is not a part of wokeism, in order to pay penance, they'll be on this never -ending cycle of works -based righteousness that ultimately save no one.

There's nothing redeemable about this. It reminded me when you were asking the question, it'd be like asking the question, is there anything biblically redeemable about some heterodox religion?

For example, Mormonism. Is there anything biblically redeemable about Mormonism? Well, I mean, the people are sweet, they're nice, and they're family -oriented, if that's what you mean.

But if you're talking about from a standpoint of that which is primary, which is salvific, of that which we promote from the standpoint of a worldview, and holding those things dear for the purpose of reconciling us one to another and us to God, there's nothing beneficial whatsoever about wokeism or about CRT in any way, shape, or form.

You mentioned Mormonism, but it's something that I think

Christians, well -meaning, very often do when they are involved in evangelizing

Muslims. They try to use too much of the Quran, perhaps if they're more knowledgeable than the average person, and might have read the

Quran or heard Christian apologists cite what is in the

Quran. And some Christian apologists, I think erroneously, teach

Christians to really use the Quran as a tool to lead people to Christ, because there is a lot of inconsistency in the

Quran. Wouldn't you say that's another error in trying to redeem Islamic language, in other words?

Absolutely, absolutely. That's a spot -on example. One of the reasons why I used the

Mormonism idea, or use that as an example, is because it is an example of another heterodox faith, another faith that is not biblical, that is not orthodox, that is not

Christian, and use this Christian language, co -ops Christian language and ideas, to mean something that when they say, they don't actually mean what the

Bible says, or what the Bible means when it says what it says. And so here you have a religion that has come along and co -opted

Christian language for the purpose of furthering their religion, all the while having

Christians, orthodox Christians, believing that there's something beneficial about Mormonism, when actually there's nothing further from the truth.

By the way, Terrence, you would normally have won a copy of the book today, just thinking the state, but since you live in Malaysia, we cannot ship that out, or we cannot have

CVVBS, our sponsor, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, ship that out to you.

But if you have a friend or a family member in the United States that you want to have this shipped to as a gift to them, or they can ship it to you, give me the name and address of that person here in the

United States so that that could be accomplished, because Founders Press has been generous enough to give us some free copies of the book to give away.

And everybody who wins, you've got to be patient, because the book is not in print yet. It will be by the end of this month,

God willing, but you'll just have to wait a little extra to receive it because of that.

But thank you, Terrence. Keep listening and spreading the word in Malaysia and beyond. We have a very frequent and generous supporter of Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio, Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina.

Greetings, brothers. My heart breaks as I see men that at one time I esteemed highly because of their biblical teaching.

Now that they've distorted the gospel with the woke gospel, CRT and the social gospel, should we still consider them as brothers in Christ?

I'm praying they'll repent and return to the true and living God. I'm assuming that you can't have a cookie cutter answer to that, because not every individual is the same, but Darrell, why don't you start?

Yeah, that's somewhat of a more nuanced question than the question that Terrence posed, because again, we know that salvation is not by works.

So although we may hear a brother, shall we say, articulate an error in his theology,

I think it really comes down to motive. Now, as I respond to this question,

I'm someone who is not omniscient, okay? I'm going to make that clear. I am not an omniscient individual.

I cannot read, unlike God, whose scripture clearly tells us we not only know the motives of our heart, he also knows the intentions, okay?

So I think what we're looking at, especially as it relates to evangelicalism, we're looking at many people, not just brothers, but there are many people within the church across various demographic categories who,

I think their intentions are good, but they see the church in such pragmatic ways that wokeism, the social gospel, critical race theory, the narratives that surround those ideologies tend to suck them in because they haven't studied those philosophies for themselves.

I'm going to refer back to Terrence's question here in just a second. I think when you talk about Christians trying to understand the distinctives between orthodox biblical theology and critical race theory, which

Virgil articulated very well as a theology in and of itself, you have to read critical race theorists.

You have to read critical race theory resources. You have to read them.

So, for example, a primer on critical race theory, if I could describe it as that, will be the book by Richard Delgado and James Stefansik titled

Critical Race Theory and Introduction. That book is usually referred to as, if not the, a primary source for anyone to understand an introductory level what critical race theory is.

And on page five of that book, which I'm holding in my hands as I speak, Delgado and Stefansik say this, quote, critical race theory builds on the insights of two previous movements, critical legal studies and radical feminism, to both of which it owes a large debt.

It also draws from certain European philosophers and theorists, such as Antonio Gramsci, Michel Foucault, and Jacques Derrida, unquote.

Now, what James Stefansik and Richard Delgado don't tell you is that Gramsci, Foucault, and Derrida were all

Marxists. They were all Marxists, if not communists, at a minimum, they were

Marxists. But when they say with their own words that critical race theory is rooted in the

Marxist movement, which was known as critical legal studies and radical feminism. Now, ask yourself, if you're a biblically, if you're professing

Christian, if you profess to hold to a biblically orthodox worldview, is there anything compatible with what you just heard me read from a critical race theory source itself?

I quote it verbatim. Ask yourself, is there anything with regard to what you know the scriptures teach and anything that I just read, is there anything compatible with those two perspectives?

If anything, you have just heard a light versus darkness, an unequally yielded worldview between what scripture teaches and what critical race theorists believe.

There is, as Virgil said, there is nothing redemptive in critical race theory from the standpoint whereby any professing believer should latch on to critical race theory at any level.

And Virgil, any follow -up? I would just say, I mean, the book by Richard Delgado is a great,

I highly recommend it. It is not a source that you're going to read through the lens of Christianity.

What Delgado was going to do in his book is he's going to lay bare before you the opening ideas that surrounded critical race theory.

And so I think it's a great book for the person inclined to try to understand what is this thing and are getting the pushback, well, you just heard from Fox News that this is racism repackaged and so you're believing that.

No, go to original sources. I think there's nothing better than doing that so that you can understand the true nature of what these authors, what these writers, what these thinkers actually intend with their worldview.

And then because of the fact that you've been grounded in a biblical worldview, I'd encourage you to come back and maybe listen to Just Thinking or the

Just Thinking podcast and allow us to help you kind of take a really good lens, a biblical lens, and then go back through those kinds of books.

Del and I have spent, I don't know, three, six hours. I mean, if you go back all told, I mean, there's probably, there's a library.

Let me just say it that way. There's a library of content, more than 113 episodes, 112 episodes that we have of our podcast, many of which actually spend two, two and a half, three or more hours walking through some of this material and these writings so that the listener can be up to speed.

They may not have the time to go through, you know, Richard Delgado or, you know, you name the latest

CRT, the crit as they call themselves, latest CRT advocate. We've gone through their material, their original source material.

We quote their own material to expose the faulty nature of their worldview.

By the way, Grady, send me your full mailing address because you've won a free copy of the book that we are discussing,

Just Thinking About the State. We have Sterling in Summerfield, North Carolina, another faithful monthly supporter of Iron Sherpins Iron Radio.

Hi brothers, can't wait until I read the new book. Does the book deal with interaction between the

Christian and the state in examples like obedience to COVID -19 mandates? And Daryl, you want to start since we last heard from Virgil?

Yeah, let me start there. The book does not get that deep into the weeds of a specific, shall we say, will you, such as COVID -19 and whether or not a believer should obey or respect or honor, whatever word you may want to use, the

COVID -19 mandates. Matter of fact, Virgil and I have deliberately stayed away from that construct of that issue as it relates to the

Just Thinking podcast and also not only Just Thinking About the State but subsequent books because we view that as a matter of individual conscience.

If someone were to ask me my personal opinion, I don't know that it's something that I could respond to in a general sense because everyone's situation is different.

I don't know that there's a cookie cutter answer to it even with respect to how a

Christian may want to interpret Romans 13 or how they may want to interpret 1

Peter or any other biblical textual guide with that regard.

So I would not want to even pretend to put an onus on a person to even the minimal degree of legalism.

I would not dare do that. I would leave that question and that decision to that person's individual conscience that they're a believer to sort of work that out between themselves and God and as that relates to scenarios and situations and circumstances that they and their family may find themselves in.

Before I turn it over to Virgil for his input here, I will say that I wholeheartedly support the position that Pastor John McArthur and the elders at Grace Community Church in standing in defiance of the mandates that were handed down by the governor of California, the city of Los Angeles, and the county of Los Angeles, which were incredibly onerous, unrealistic, burdensome, and not to mention unbiblical with respect to the church, the divine instruction from God as to how the church is to function within the state, within the confines of the state, and that is that the church does not get permission from the state to operate as that divine entity that it is.

I think scripture is clear on that, so I wholeheartedly support the position that John McArthur, the elders, and Grace Community Church have taken over these past many months.

So with that, I'll turn it over to Virgil for his input. Yeah, I'll just add this quickly.

I know we're probably running up on a break, but I would just say that the book really takes aim at the foundational structures of woke culture and their dependence upon the state as savior, okay?

And so what we did was we didn't want to necessarily time stamp the book for the

COVID vaccine or the COVID response. What we wanted to do is to really address broader -based issues and subject matter based upon what we've been comfortable dealing with, which is issues of worldview.

And so our goal is really to equip the Christian to understand the cultural playbook that is being used, and we want to point our readers to scripture.

So when they see that the culture or the state or woke evangelicals even, or woke culture more generally based, appealing to a particular playbook, they know where that playbook comes from, and they know where they stand from a standpoint of a biblical worldview.

As Christians, we have to understand this. We've got to understand the distinctions between what

Darrell so brilliantly laid out in John MacArthur's position, right?

What did MacArthur and the elders at Grace Community Church do? They stood on biblical principle, and as a result of understanding and knowing what the

Bible had to say about a particular matter, mainly how the church is to function and to whom the church belongs, they took a stand against what the state was trying to employ.

So our book will do more to instruct and equip the believer from a larger point of view, from a bigger biblical sense, and they'll be able, based upon that information, to understand all of the different nuances given their cultural context as a result.

And Chris, if I might, if I could just augment what Virgil just so very well articulated there with respect to the questioner,

I want to just give him a little bit of a sort of 50 ,000 -foot level of what the book deals with.

Let me just run down the chapters real quick. There are 10 chapters in Just English. Chapter 1 is government.

Chapter 2 is socialism. Chapter 3, capitalism. Chapter 4 is titled

A Social Savior. Chapter 5 is on the Born Alive Act. Chapter 6 is on Black Lives Matter and abortion.

Chapter 7 is titled Politics and the Black Church. Chapter 8 is on slavery reparations.

Chapter 9 covers the Equality Act, and then Chapter 10 is on elections. So that would give the individual brother who asked that question a bit of a tighter view of what issues are covered in Just Thinking About the

State. Great, and we're going to our final break right now, and if you have a question, send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

ChrisArnsett at gmail .com. ChrisArnsett at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Daryl Bernard Harrison and Virgil Walker right after these messages from our sponsors.

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Please visit us at truthloveparent .com. Welcome back. We have an anonymous listener who says,

I have a very close friend who is an extraordinary preacher and I have always found him to be theologically sound.

He is also reformed and baptistic in his understanding of theology and ecclesiology.

The issue is, however, he thinks that those who are opponents of the woke movement tend to overstretch and although he is not full bore supporting the woke movement, he does not know, according to him, anyone who is reformed who seems to be under that umbrella who is also a socialist or supporting socialism in any way.

What is your response to that? Well, let me start on that, Chris, and let me just say, look, no socialist is going to come out and tell you, yeah,

I'm a socialist. No one's going to come out and just overtly say that.

Now, my saying that, I'm not suggesting, inferring, or implying that this particular brother is a socialist.

However, what I am bringing up is that in wokeism, the language is so nuanced.

It is so nuanced as to be totally innocuous, totally unrecognizable as socialism.

When you study, for example, critical race theory, you cannot help but connect the dots between Marxism and critical race theory.

And when you understand Marxism, you understand that the goal of Marxism is socialism.

Now, no one who's even minimally woke is going to come out and acknowledge that they subscribe to the tenants of either economic

Marxism or cultural Marxism. But you have to understand what Marxism is and what socialism is in order to understand that critical race theory has the same goals in mind.

Critical race theory is rooted in the same complaint as Marxism and socialism are, which in that one complaint is inequality.

Just the one complaint that all three of those worldviews have in common. So the question

I would have for this particular pastor, this brother that's being raised in the question that is posed, is what is it about his understanding about wokeism that the gospel doesn't address?

What is it about what his understanding of wokeism is, however he defines it, what is it within that understanding of wokeism that the gospel is insufficient to address?

I would love to hear his response to that question. Okay, great. Anonymous, email me your full name and mailing address because you have won a free copy of Just Thinking About the

State. Thanks for submitting the question. We have

RJ in White Plains, New York, and I'll have Virgil answer this one.

RJ in White Plains, New York, says, I have heard that the Bible does not endorse any specific form of government, whether it be a constitutional republic, a democracy, or anything involving communism, socialism, or a country that submits to a royal throne, and the population are subjects rather than citizens.

There is no specific formula for a government, and we may be a part of any of these governments and even support them, as long as they don't compel anyone to sin, to believe in a false religion, or to deny

Christ. What is your opinion on this? I mean, the person that posed the question is correct, and the reason for that is because God is not subject to government.

God is the King of kings and the Lord of lords. Jesus Christ is the King of kings and the Lord of lords.

He reigns supreme over it all, and he's sovereign over all. So there's not the advocacy for a man -made government or man -made institution.

It is that we who are at odds with God as a result of our sin against him need to repent of sin, place our faith in him, and present ourselves as living sacrifices submitted to the government of God, submitted to his kingdom and his righteousness.

I think from a standpoint of governments and governmental institutions, I want to go back to something

Darrell mentioned about, one, the sufficiency of scripture. At the end of the day, those who are arguing, well, you can't rely on this kind of government, you can't rely on that kind of government, well, that's absolutely correct, and the reason is because they're fallible, man -made, human institutions.

At the end of the day, we've got to rest in the government of God, and we do that by understanding and submitting ourselves to what scripture has to say about these matters.

Now, I think it goes without saying that those who founded the American government that founded the

United States did so on the basis of their understanding of a Judeo -Christian worldview and the freedoms therein, the autonomy that's reflected in the fact that we are image bearers of God, deserving of distinct value, dignity, and worth, that one shouldn't lay hostage to another, that we should have certain human and inalienable rights as a result, given to us, granted to us by God, by our

Creator, as a result. So, all of these things are inherent in our constitution and have led us to a constitutional republic, but at the end of the day,

I enjoy the benefits of the constitutional republic in which we live, but at the end of the day,

I'm submitted to the Kingdom of the Living God, and to what His Word has to say about these issues, so that when government does rise up against what the

Word of God has to say, I'm not subject. I'm subject to God's Word and to holding true to that which is written in the scriptures.

Don't you think, though, however, governments like communistic and socialistic governments are really rooted in coveting thy neighbor's goods and even stealing thy neighbor's goods?

Absolutely. Moreover, most of them, especially communistic governments, are absent, devoid of any knowledge of God, right?

They absolutely repudiate any idea that God exists and would condemn and have murdered people by the millions who have claimed the name of Christ.

There are people living in countries. I mean, we're looking at Afghanistan now, and our Christian brothers and sisters are there and hiding because they recognize that any mention of their beliefs in an open format would ultimately lend them to death.

And so, yes, and amen to what you just said. Yes, communistic governments, governments that are devoid of any kind of connectivity to a

Judeo -Christian worldview, you know, abhor the things of God, abhor the kingdom of God.

Well, we're out of time. I definitely want you two to come back, perhaps when the book is in print, we'll have you come back to pick up where we left off, because we just scratched the surface.

And we could go through every heading in your book, if you'd like, as long as time will allow. But I want to thank everybody who listened today.

I want to remind you that the Just Thinking podcast can be found at justthinking .me, justthinking .m

as in Michael, e as in Edward. I want to thank my guests for being so superb today.

I want to thank everybody who listened. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater