Obey Your Leaders

Hebrews 13 and the Call to Go Outside the Camp

If you'll take your Bibles, please, and turn with me for one of the last times, not that you can't continue to read the book on your own, obviously, but for one of the last times, the book of Hebrews, Hebrews chapter 13.

Hebrews chapter 13, and before we look to the Word of God, let us ask Him to bless our time together. Our gracious Heavenly Father, we love Your Word. We thank You for having blessed us with Your truth.

We thank You that generations of believers down through the ages have clung to this Word, have heard You speaking in these inspired words. And Lord, though we have come very late upon the scene, and many generations have passed before us, we thank You that You have preserved this Word and You draw our hearts out to it.

As we consider the conclusion of this tremendous epistle, may You once again bless us by Your Spirit, with Your presence. May we hear, may we understand, may we believe and obey. We pray in Christ's name.

Well, as I mentioned last week, it was in September of 2008, I believe, that we began this journey through the book of Hebrews. And we are now coming toward the end of this great book. And now that it is unfortunately the reality that you are stuck with me for an extra week, it's going to be three weeks in a row, so I'll be back again next week.

And that means we will definitely finish off the book of Hebrews during this time and do so just under the six-year wire in the study. Obviously, looking back, I have stepped out of the study of Hebrews a number of times, so if we had been trying to go a little faster, it wouldn't have been difficult to do.

But certainly I know that in my study of this book that seems to be for so many in our day a closed book, I certainly have been blessed and I certainly hope that as you have considered the words of this epistle, that it has become much more of a favorite to you, one that now sheds its light upon your understanding of the gospel.

In this thirteenth chapter, we have worked almost all the way through. Last week, we worked through the discussion of going out to Jesus outside of the camp. And so let us pick up with the reading of chapter 13 and verse 12.

Hebrews chapter 13, we'll read through the rest of the chapter beginning at verse 12. So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through his own blood. Therefore let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured.

For here we have no lasting city, but we seek the city that is to come. Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God that is the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name. Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

Christian Sacrifices of Praise, Good Works, and Fellowship

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a clear conscience desiring to act honorably in all things. I urge you the more earnestly to do this in order that I may be restored to you the sooner. Now may the God of peace, who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever.

Amen. I appeal to you, brothers, bear with my word of exhortation, for I have written to you briefly. You should know that our brother Timothy has been released, with whom I shall see you if he comes soon.

Greet all your leaders and all the saints. Those who come from Italy send you greetings. Grace be with all of you. We saw last Lord's Day that we have here again an exhortation addressed to us believers that we have no lasting city.

We had the discussion of the fact that once again the writer is confirming in his audience the reality that we as believers set our sights upon an eternal home, upon an everlasting city that is a heavenly city, and that the background seems to be once again that attraction which we understand, which we see even in our day, that very often the world will provide a religious attraction associated with religious liturgy and grand buildings and things like that, and hence that attraction existed in the days of the writer to the Hebrews.

Once again it would seem to indicate that the dating of this epistle that we were right to emphasize at the beginning, this is very early, that is that it was written prior to the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in A .D. 70 by Titus and the Roman legions.

And so we have an indication here that there is being pressure placed upon people, look at the beautiful buildings, look at what God has done in blessing the people of Israel, you have the high priesthood, you have the sacrifices, how could you step away from this, etc., etc.

And so we have the argument being presented that well, you know, those sacrifices, their bodies were taken outside of the camp and they were burned and therefore, as it says, therefore let us go to him outside the camp, in verse 13, and bear the reproach he endured.

So there is an argument being presented that just as there was a picture in Christ of going outside the camp, therefore let us go to him outside the camp, bear the reproach he endured, for here we have no lasting city but we seek the city that is to come.

And so there is a further argument, even in the exhortations being presented to the people, that we should expect that we will not be in the in crowd. We will not be amongst those who point to the large beautiful buildings and say, look how beautiful these buildings are and look how God has blessed us and can't you see the testimony here and all of these temple surroundings and things like that.

Instead the author is saying we have no lasting city. We are pilgrims and strangers, remember the earlier exhortation in regards to that. But instead we seek the city that is to come. We have a different priority.

We have a different calling. And truly when you get engaged in religious systems that are focused upon the powers of this earth, focused upon the buildings that we erect upon this earth, it does change a person's priorities.

If you are seeking the city that is to come, then you will not find it as easy to become entrapped in the things of this world, in the things that are passing away. You will find it much easier to lay them aside and to put no value in them because your eyes are focused upon a greater prize.

And so then we looked at verse 15, Then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is the fruit of lips that acknowledge His name. And we saw that though they had that old priesthood and you had to stand outside of the temple and wait for the priest to come out on that great day of atonement and there would be the intercession that was taking place.

There is no such Christian priesthood whatsoever. Instead, through Him, then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God. That we are called to offer up sacrifices of praise and we are given a specific idea of what that is.

In verse 15, that is the fruit of lips that acknowledge His name, the confession of Jesus Christ. That term acknowledge there is the term confession. It is to speak the same thing. And so when we gather together, when we sing together, when we pray together, when we partake the Lord's Supper together, there is a confession, there is a saying of the same thing.

When we gather on Wednesday evenings and we pray together, there is a saying of the same thing. Now, we've experienced this for so long that most of us take it for granted. We've experienced, most of you, well not all, but many of you have grown up with the freedom and the knowledge that you could gather with the people of God at any time.

That's one of the reasons why we can become somewhat apathetic about it. But when you think about how small the Christian church was at this time in comparison to the religions of the world and how despised it was and how often in other lands, I certainly see this when I get a chance to travel.

I don't know if any of you saw the video that we posted back in February, but I preached at a small Baptist church in one of the suburbs of Kiev. And my dear brother Nick, I hope he hears this, Nick, it has really been one of the great pleasures of my life to get to travel overseas and meet people.

And there are a couple of times when you land and you meet someone and the Spirit just bonds you together. They just become precious to you immediately. Brother Nick, my translator in Ukraine, is one of those young men.

And Brother Rudolf Buschoff, a pastor in South Africa, he meets me at the airport and we sit down to eat and immediately we are just bonded together. My brother, Pastor Roger Brazier, Brother David down in Sydney, there's just so many that I could point to where we just meld together.

And even though we come from different backgrounds and different experiences, and I'm that weird bald Scotsman guy, and yet the Spirit gets past all of that. And we have this tremendous relationship with one another.

That is a confession, an acknowledgement. We're saying the same thing in different languages. And in fact, Brother Nick, there were a couple of times last time I was in Kiev and he was translating for me while I was teaching, there would be times when I would give an answer to a question during class.

And I can't understand Russian. I mean, I start picking up a few little words. But when I go to Germany, then at least it's almost distracting because I can speak German well enough to know what's being said and it's hard for me to concentrate on the next thing I'm trying to say when I'm understanding what's being said in German.

But at least in Russian, my mind just sort of can go to the next point because it just sounds, you know. But I would notice that his answer was considerably longer than mine was. And I started realizing it was because Nick listens.

He's listened to every dividing line. He's listened to all of my debates. And he was sort of embellishing, expanding, you know, providing some other illustrations that he thought might help. And every once in a while I'd look at him and just smile.

It's okay, it was what you said, but just a little more, that's all, you know. And it's just wonderful to have that common confession that I don't have to worry about that. There's some places I would go when I have a translator, I'd be a little bit concerned if the answer was considerably longer than what I'd actually said.

But I can trust Nick because we have that homologue, that saying of the same thing, that confession that is ours because we know the same Lord and we have the same beliefs. And so it is a sacrifice of praise to God, the fruit of lips that acknowledge His name.

When we confess Christ, when we speak under the Lordship of Christ, when we preach the same message, that's one of the things that I think you here in this place need to recognize. We have been blessed with, and I know it's a blessing that I thank the Lord for all the time.

And that is, you've seen it happen. How many times have you seen it happen? I'll be speaking in the adult Sunday school class, and a topic will come up and I'll address that. And we come in here, and Pastor Fry gets up, and he says the exact same thing I just said.

It's not because we called each other up and said, hey, I think I'm going to talk about this this weekend. How about you? Okay, I'll sneak it in too, and then I'll go, ooh. No, it never happens. The reality is there just simply is that kind of consistency in what we believe.

And it is a blessing, my friends. It is a blessing. If you've ever been in a situation where there's been a church split, where there's been doctrinal issues, you don't understand the blessing of the peace that we have and the unity we have when it comes to issues.

That doesn't mean we all just walk lockstep as zombies. There are certain areas where we can have disagreements with one another. But when it comes to the confession of His name, God is glorified when His people are united in the things that really matter.

He really is. And I don't think God is glorified when we have people today that call themselves evangelicals, who are beginning, beginning? Who are rushing to abandon central doctrines of the faith because the society is now saying that's hatred and bigotry and so on and so forth.

God is glorified when we confess the name of Christ and we are faithful in so doing. So we continue on, verse 16. Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

It literally is a statement. The doing of good comes from just one term. And then we have the term which we've all heard before, I would imagine. Koinonia, fellowship, sharing together. It's not just like what we're going to be doing this afternoon.

We're going to be having some food after the service and having some fellowship. That's an aspect of it. So there is a sharing of worldly goods in that sense. Koinonia, the concept of Christian fellowship, really goes beyond just that.

It includes that. And on a very practical level, especially in lands where Christianity is illegal, the nature of koinonia takes on a very, very practical level in the sense that you might have the elder of your congregation may be imprisoned.

And so now koinonia involves taking care of his wife and children. And the whole congregation does that and has to do it, sometimes surreptitiously, or those that are easily found out doing so might find themselves in prison as well.

And so Christian koinonia, especially under persecution, grows legs and becomes extremely practical. But it can't just be limited to the sharing of physical things. There is a bearing of one another's burdens.

There is the visiting of the sick. There is all the things that go into the life of the body of Christ. And these are described as sacrifices as well, just as the sacrifices of praise in the earlier verse in regards to the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name.

So in other words, what do we see in verses 15 and 16? Think with me for just a moment. Where else in the New Testament, in a book pretty nearby in the canon, in fact, do we have the very same kind of balanced recognition that the speaking of words and the doing of deeds need to be united with one another and in consistency with one another?

I'm thinking of James. I'm thinking of James chapter 2. And I'm thinking of that text we've addressed many times before. If a person says, I believe, but then they don't do, can that kind of faith save them?

And James' answer is no, because it's not a true living, saving faith. And so, once again, we walk that very balanced path and we see that even though we have different authors in different contexts and they're addressing maybe different issues, the beauty of the consistency, if we just won't be hypercritical and we'll sit back and we'll listen, here once again is evidence of the inspiration of this collection of writings, because that's what the New Testament is, different authors, different times, writing to different audiences, and yet we bring these things together and it continues to amaze me.

The balance and the beauty that is found, because as I've said many times, James in chapter 2 isn't saying anything different than what Paul said in Ephesians chapter 2. Very often they're put at loggerheads against one another.

They are not. That's an unfair stance to take. And here the writer of the Hebrews seems to have the exact same understanding. Sacrifice. Well, what's sacrifice? The fruit of lips that acknowledge His name.

What's another sacrifice? Doing things that are consistent with the confession that we have that Jesus Christ is Lord, that is doing good, sharing what you have, that Christian koinonia. These sacrifices are pleasing to God.

It's not a contradiction. We don't have to fall off one of the two sides, become those who are into works righteousness and Christ's sacrifice. It only brings us back to a moral neutral place, and now we've got to add to it and do our things and keep our noses clean.

And on the other side you've got the folks, well, there's no repentance in the gospel, and all you've got to do is tip your hat toward God, you've got your ticket punched, and that's what sola fide, faith alone, really means.

Obey Your Leaders and Submit to Them

No, you have the biblical balance in between those two extremes expressed over and over again to us here at the end of the book of Hebrews. And now we have verse 17, and that's as far as we're going to try to go this morning because I think it's important for us to hear this, because here you sit.

Why aren't you alone with your Bible under a tree out next to the lake sipping a lemonade? I mean, for a lot of folks, that's church. You know, just do a little devotional reading, and as long as it's just you and Jesus, everything's good, right?

Because where two or three, it's me and Jesus, there's two. So, we're good, see? And I just didn't want to buy it. I don't know why, but I saw a book recently reviewed about how to be a Christian without going to church.

And, you know, the whole thing was how about the Lord's Supper and baptism. They're nice, but they're just optional. They're just sort of aids and things like that. And in our day and age, we just need to come to understand that, you know, people did this in the past for certain reasons, but you just don't need to do that anymore.

And I always think of the rather well-put statement that it's really easy to say, I love the brethren from your easy chair, as long as the brethren and the sistren aren't around you. It's real easy to make profession that I love Christ's church when you're all alone and you're not having to deal with the fact that, well, those other people at church, some of them are a little bit strange, a little bit odd, and they sort of rub me the wrong direction.

And all that stuff's really, really easy to do. But the reality is God has ordained the church, and he's given it a particular form. He's given it a particular form. When we see the apostles, what are they doing?

When Paul went around strengthening the churches that he had founded, how did he strengthen them? By appointing and training and instructing elders to function in a position of leadership in that church.

He explained to them what the Lord's Supper was. He explained to them what baptism was. He talked to them about teaching and preaching the Word of God and singing hymns and prayers. And we see all of this in the New Testament.

And that's God's wisdom. It's not a simple cultural thing. It's God's wisdom that we need to gather together, and we need to not only draw strength from one another in our common confession of faith, but there is also a sanctifying effect of having to be around other fallen sinners who are in the process of sanctification.

Bearing one of his burdens, learning to love outside of where we're comfortable to love. And so in that context, it's interesting that the writer needs to warn his readers. Verse 17, Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will give an account.

Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you. Now, I remember a number of years ago now, well over a decade now, men that I have quite purposefully identified as street screechers.

That's different than being a street preacher. A street screecher is a person who stands out in public and seeks to make an absolute nuisance of himself by his behavior and by his words and by his lack of consideration for the context in which he stands.

And a group of street screechers showed up in Salt Lake City. Some of you may remember that for years we went to Salt Lake City during a general conference and passed out tracts and witnessed the people.

We don't do that anymore. We don't do that anymore because the street screechers showed up and it was their intention to demonstrate their godliness by offending everything and everyone who could walk by as if offending people was a demonstration that you're right with Jesus.

And so I remember approaching that first year that they showed up and were destroying everything we were trying to do and had been doing for 18 years. I walked up to one of their leaders and I said, I'd like to ask you, who are your leaders and how are you submitted to them?

What do you mean? Well, Hebrews 13, 17 says, Obey your leaders and submit to them for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will give an account. I'd like to know who your elders are, who your leaders are.

I'd like to be able to talk to them about your behavior. Well, my leader is Jesus. And I said, well that's good to know, but that's not what the writer of the Hebrews was talking about. He could have said, obey Jesus and submit to him, but that's not what he said.

In fact, he was specifically referring to human individuals who were alive at that time that they knew and that they knew personally because it says, that they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will have to give an account.

And so, they're going to have to give an account to somebody else, so it can't be Jesus. So, who are your leaders? Well, that was about as far as the conversation went before they started screeching again because they really didn't believe this verse and they really didn't care much that they were in rebellion against it and that they didn't have a meaningful ecclesiology and hence should not have been out there screeching at other people when they were in rebellion against the Word of God themselves.

And that situation has not changed over the past decade or more since then. But I ask a lot of people this question because there are a lot of lone ranger Christians out there. There are a lot of Christians who think that, now they would never put it this way, and sadly no one has ever seemingly challenged them in the way that I challenge them.

But they seem to think that they're wiser than God. That's what you're saying if you can look at the New Testament. You look at how God has organized the church in the New Testament. You see that there are elders.

You see Timothy, for example, in 2 Timothy 2 is told that the things that you've heard from me, as you've heard my preaching, as you've heard my teaching, as you've seen how I've dealt with situations in the church, you pass these things on to worthy men.

Now, how are you supposed to know they're worthy? Well, it means they're in the church. You've been able to observe their lives. You've been able to see their consistency. That was one of the things that certainly struck me when I first came here.

And that was there was such a huge difference in mindset between the eldership here, I mean, even the term eldership is rather unusual in the churches that I came from. It was much more the pastor and the deacons.

But it was the pastor and he was sort of one who just ruled and reigned over everything until the deacons didn't like it anymore and they could kick him out and get somebody else. And it was always a power struggle type thing there.

But when it came to being called to the ministry, that was a completely subjective, feeling-oriented thing that a guy would just experience one day. And it could never be questioned. The idea that there would be an observation of people's lives, maybe even examination of their gifts and their callings, and the idea that the elders would give guidance in that area and might even say to a young man, no, I don't see that.

We don't see any evidence of that. Oh, that couldn't happen. Could not happen. And the guarding of this place where I stand right now, I mean, that was, again, a whole new experience to me. I've pointed out that in the 25 years now that I've been here, I can only think of, I think, about six people, grand total, that have preached from behind this pulpit, about six.

It might be a little bit more than that because it might have happened while I was gone or something, I suppose. But the number is incredibly small. Now, some of you might be going, yeah, I wish it could be incredibly much larger.

I'd like to hear somebody else. But the reality is there is a very high view. There has to be a tremendous concern about the accuracy of what is taught from the Word of God from this pulpit. That is an unusual attitude.

It really, really is. And it's right there. Because those who are found to be leaders in the congregation, they are keeping watch over your souls. And so if someone stands up here and starts giving you false direction, resulting in confusion in your mind, well, who does that reflect upon?

Well, it reflects upon the elders of this church who allowed that person to get up there and do that kind of thing. And in the same way, it says that they will give an account. They will give an account.

They will render a word. It's the term logos. They will render a word. They're going to be asked. We are going to be asked. I am going to be asked, if you want to get personal at this point, about the stewardship that was given to me.

Now, we know in this church, Pastor Fry does most of the teaching. He is the one that we support on a full-time basis. And when it comes to the primary pastoral duties, that is something that Pastor Fry does.

And I'm frequently gone. Man, I'm looking at this fall schedule shaking my head. I and airline seats are going to be best friends once again for long periods of time. It's just the way that things have worked out.

And so we've worked out the situation here at this church where I initially was called the utility elder before I became an actual elder. And we recognize that I've been given an opportunity to do some pretty amazing things in faraway places.

And I hope, as I've said many times, you all see that as an extension of your own ministry. I mean, I've been here a quarter of a century now. I think you sort of stuck with me. And certainly it's fairly well known that I'm an elder here and that I represent this church.

And I hope that you recognize that fact when you see a video of me preaching in Kiev, Ukraine, or South Africa, or wherever else it might be, in Australia, or this coming January, hoping to survive Norway.

Yeah, January, Norway, what was that? What was I thinking there? I don't know. But those are some of the tremendous opportunities that we get. And so we have different roles that we play. But still, I know that Pastor Fry has often expressed the fact that he is thankful that, even though he was supposed to be here today and he's obviously dealing with family matters, he doesn't have to give much thought.

I wonder if White's going to be up there preaching here, is he? No, doesn't really have to think about that. Doesn't have to worry about that. And when you come, you don't really normally have to think about, well, I wonder if we're going to get some weird stuff today.

The fact of the matter is, there are a lot of churches where they do have to think about that. And they get weird stuff. And they get confusion. And they're not really certain where the leadership's going, or what they're going to be preaching, or what they're going to be teaching.

And there are a lot of folks who don't recognize, who are in leadership, that we are going to have to give an account. We are merely undershepherds. And what you feed the sheep had better be what the shepherd wants them to have, or you're going to have to answer for that.

And I feel that. I've told the story before. The first time I preached, I remember what I preached on. And the first time I preached, I come through that door. And back then, I would go sit down there, and the elders would come up here.

And I remember, as we were in that little room, right as I was heading toward that door, Pastor Fry sort of whispered quietly to me and said, Play the man, Mr. Ridley. How many of you know, just off the top of your head, exactly what that means?

Okay. Brother Broyles. What was about to happen to me, Brother Broyles? I was about to get burned at the stake. Because that's what one martyr said to another during the Reformation in England. Play the man, Mr. Ridley.

They're on their way to the stake to die. That was what Pastor Fry said to me as we came through that door. Ah, you're getting some of the inside stuff now. Yeah, uh-huh. Yeah, now you know. The point was, stand firm, give your confession, don't compromise.

And I knew exactly what he was talking about, thankfully. Otherwise, I would have been confused the whole morning. My name is White, not Ridley. What's going on here? But I knew exactly what he was talking about.

And it reflected the attitude that we have, that we're going to give an account. What we're doing up here is we're not up here playing games. This is not just something you do traditionally on Sunday.

We really do believe that the Bible is the Word of God, and we have an account to give to how we handle this Word and the consistency with which we handle it and the application that we make. And I think that's why most of you are here, is because you've discovered that that's a less and less popular commitment to be found in those places that call themselves churches today.

But the direction now, while I, as one of these elders, as one of these leaders, need to hear what's being said here and need to hear, I'm going to give an account. That's not who these words are addressed to.

These words are addressed to you. The person, the congregation. And there is a recognition that the church isn't just a democratic body in the sense of all are presidents and we're all just going all sorts of different directions.

There is a need to pull together in the same direction. There shouldn't be a seeking to play leaders off against one another, to promote oneself. Now, again, this is so strange. This doesn't happen here.

But believe me, I've been in places where it does. And if you've ever been there, then you know, once again, how blessed we have been on this level. And I'm not just talking about the wild things where you have the fisticuffs just after the deacons meeting, though that happens.

There's so often so much politics, and I'll be perfectly, brutally honest with you, it's very often in the music ministry. Oh, it is. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. I've seen it. I've watched it.

People playing leaders off against other leaders. And, oh, goodness, it is a shame to watch. But these words are addressed to you. Because, first of all, God has placed people and given people certain capacity to be able to watch over your souls.

We warn you. Pastor Fry and I have how many warnings? Has anyone ever given a count? How many times have we warned against this false teaching, this imbalance, these people over here, those people over there?

Look to yourself. Recognize it's so easy to become apathetic. It's so easy to start comparing yourself to other people. I mean, we take seriously the need to bring to you the same warnings the Word of God brings to all of us.

And so we're keeping watch. I mean, if any one of you who's been here any given time at all falls into heresy, it's not because we haven't warned you. It's not because we haven't sought to proclaim the whole counsel of God to you.

But then you have the exhortation. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning. For that would be of no advantage to you. Now, what does that mean? Well, that means sometimes there are folks in the church that aren't that easy to shepherd.

There are some sheep that take more shepherding than others, shall we say. And sometimes it's just immaturity. But sometimes it's just the way people are. There are such things as being stiff-necked.

There are such things as not hearing. There are such things as being so focused upon myself and my experience and my situation that I don't hear the exhortations the way that I should. And I think I'm hearing you saying things that you're really not saying and so on and so forth.

And I know Pastor Fry and I have both commented on the fact that amongst us here, that's not really the case amongst the membership. It's the people who come in and don't want to make that commitment that very often then demand the most time.

People who make a commitment to being a member of this church seem to recognize that, you know what? I am hearing so much of the Word of God. I'm having it read to me. I'm having it preached to me. We go through the Psalter.

We go through the Old Testament. We go through the New Testament. We are challenged. I mean, we challenge you. And that's why a lot of folks come here. They might visit once or twice and they want to go away.

Because they don't want to be challenged. They don't want to be asked to mature in the pew. When we address difficult issues, when we plow through good grief, Amos and Jeremiah and Nehemiah and Levitical laws and stuff like that, what are we doing?

We're challenging you to mature where you are. We're challenging you to grow and to be complete in Christ rather than just babying you. And I've told you what I was told years ago at a Southern Baptist church.

I was brought in by the Minister of Education. I've said this before, but I'll say it again because it still to this day leaves me stuttering. And that man looked me in the eye. He was a wonderful man.

He was a godly man. He was a nice man. But he was a part of a system that I couldn't remain a part of. He looked at me and he was talking about my teaching in the adult Sunday school classes. And he said, you need to remember that our idea is that every Sunday school lesson, it should be like that's the first Sunday school lesson anyone has ever heard.

Week in and week out. Week in and week out. Now today I can stand before you and say that shows zero respect for the word of God, the spirit of God, and the people of God. When you treat people like that, you're saying you're all a bunch of babies and you're going to stay that way.