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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.
Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.
If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight six six eight five four six seven six three and now with today's topic.
Here is James White.
And good afternoon and welcome to the dividing line. My name is James White that is a name you can repeat if you wish to even though there are some folks who evidently have a problem pronouncing that particular name and What are we talking about?
Well, of course, we're talking about Monday evening's Presentation of the journey home on the EWTN Network where my sister Patti Bonds Appeared and talked about her conversion to Roman Catholicism. But it was a fascinating program.
Not. Not so much For what was said, but for what? Wasn't said. I guess you might say I'm trying to turn sound off here. Okay. There we go anyways, and that is. Many references were made to myself Though a name was never attached to me.
I've that's really sure what exactly that's all about. I guess that's sort of the envoy magazine way of doing things. So you may recall a few years ago envoy magazine I was on the front cover though. It wasn't me.
They put a something in front of my face and and did an old whole article refuting what I had said In a footnote in an article I did on the doctrine of the Trinity. But they never bothered to say who I was they didn't give any references.
You couldn't go look anything up. I found absolutely amazing. Well that has continued and Of course in a fascinating way that I think communicates some stuff to us. It's actually rather encouraging. Let me give an example.
We're gonna be playing sections from the program today and making comments and responding to them. And then there are various individuals like Phil Provoznik and others that we have challenged to call into the program at eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three and If there's some things we say you'd like to take issue with you can call that number and we will be taking Taking your phone calls today on the program later on but must much much to get to.
What I found truly fascinating this first clip is before Mrs. Bonds said word one Marcus Grodi.
Said this our guest this evening Patti Bonds is going to talk to us about her journey of faith. Journey into the Catholic Church, and I need to tell you something about Patti. Patti You may not recognize the name Patti, but if I told you the name of her brother you would probably recognize.
He's the sister of a prominent well-known Anti-catholic apologist. If I mentioned his name many of you would be familiar with his books and tapes. And I would say that in that sense Patti's conversion to the Catholic Church Was very difficult for her because of those pressures.
Being the sister of a well-known apologist. So we need your prayers tonight. This can be a difficult time, but she's here to share her journey.
Nothing had been nothing was said whatsoever by mrs. Bonds prior to that introduction and I am a prominent well-known Anti-catholic apologist. Well of course we've gone over the gross inconsistency of the constant use of anti-catholic.
By Roman Catholic apologists they would of course object to the constant use of the phrase Antiprotestant. If I were to refer to Marcus Grodi as an anti-protestant he would go no no no I think Protestants are Christians and even though I affirmed the anathemas of Trent.
Yada yada yada the.
We've already discussed the fact that this is a term that is used to attempt to poison the well. It is something we've called them on over and over again, and it's just something that evidently They are more than happy to continue in the hypocritical use of this term.
And not engage the the subjects in a fair way, but. It is interesting. Prominent well-known anti-catholic apologist. You would recognize his tapes and books, but isn't it interesting that one of the things that does not come out in this program is that?
The guest has not listened to any of those tapes and Only began to read some of the books as a part of the conversion process and even them in a very emotional fashion by her own confession. That's I would think would be relevant to the issues at hand.
But unfortunately it did not come out and was not mentioned in the process of the program. Well anyways we move on. I have 13 clips. I'm gonna play today. I'm not gonna try to dwell very long on any one of them except Maybe the last one and we do want to be able to take some phone calls today.
So I do invite folks to get on the line when they have an opportunity to do so at 866 -854 -6763. One of the ironies that I have pointed out to my sister in emails once it was announced. To the family that she was converting.
And for those of you haven't listened before I've have not read the article on our web page, which is www .aomin .org.
Luke.
Luke1251 .html. It's also the main page article right now if you just go to aomin .org. But as you listen to this on archive that will change one of the things that I have mentioned is that as She went through this process she did not talk to me.
She sent me one anonymous email that anonymous email is Posted with my response on the website and by the way I do need to say this I want to thank the many people who have sent Emails this past week.
Giving your testimony of how blessed you have been by that article there have been people who have just been Tremendously helped by the response that I wrote to my sister's anonymous email. I did not know it was my sister.
I did not know who this person was but I felt constrained to provide a rather full response to the email. Of course the Roman Catholics who have responded haven't responded to any of the substance of the email at all.
That is that is the standard way that things work in that particular situation. But many others have been very helped by what was written there. And if that's the why I ended up doing it then that's that's great.
I just want to thank all those people the tremendous outpouring of support that has come across. Come across the Electronic wires shall we say over the past week Tremendous support for what what we've done the stance that we've taken and standing for truth and so on and so forth so I did Want to say that but anyways?
After finally it came out and there is a section and we're going to play for you. Where my sister talks about how it did come out that she was converting. When it finally did come out and I contacted her by email and I started challenging The beliefs that she was adopting.
One of the things I pointed out was that my sister has been baptized three different times and each time. That involved in essence the repudiation of what had happened before each time. She felt I wasn't saved before it wasn't real before now.
It's real now I've come to an understanding that makes this baptism real etc. Etc. And What's fascinating one of the things I pointed out never really got a response to in the email? Was that from Rome's perspective her first baptism justified her?
Her first baptism is what is what made her right before God even though she is twice said that it didn't. Which I find fascinating here's here's her comments on that I can remember learning the.
Basic tenets of the gospel as we understood it and reciting them back to my parents much to their glee. And and. When I was six years old I made what we refer to as a profession of faith I prayed with my father and asked Jesus to be my Lord and Savior.
And and. Later about it less just a little less than a year from then he baptized me.
So that would have been the first initial experience of justification from the Roman Catholic perspective one of the many reasons that we reject the Roman Catholic perspective. Now one of the things as we Monday evening sat around and and watched the Watch the program that made everyone who was watching Sort of stop and eyes get real big and people started looking at each other was the description that was provided of the church that Mrs. Bonds was in until her conversion to Roman Catholicism.
That church is a member of the missionary Denomination and We've been in contact with that church as well. And it was fascinating to hear the description that was provided of that church.
Here's here's how it went. The particular church. I was going to at the time which Was a wonderful church and and I owe them much as far as having taught me What it meant to follow Christ? But We kind of saw ourselves.
I think and as being the the very few people in the world Who really understood God Properly and his word properly. Did you use the word remnant? Oh, yes. Yeah, we were very Calvinist Baptist and and Saw ourselves as that chosen few who really understood him.
Well, and it was a very narrow world.
Very in a sense. You're a small group of believers Based on the idea of Scripture alone As the foundation. Yet on top of that believe that your small group had the one true.
Understood that be a caricature. Would that be a clear way? No, that's definitely true.
Now I I can pretty much guarantee you that if we stood outside that church a Sunday morning with a little clipboard and Had all the people coming out. Take a little survey and we put Calvinistic Baptist as one of the choices for description of that church.
If there were a thousand people there if two of them chose that I would be somewhat surprised. I really would. Now things have changed a little bit over the past couple years. There used to be more reformed folks there than there are now.
But I've never. I've been there a few times. I never heard the term remnant use. Someone else just mentioned who was a member there for a while. They never heard the term remnant used. I've never heard any of the elders use that term.
I I have no idea really what mark where. Marcus Grodd. I was trying to go with that particular comment either. But be that as it may we all found that to be Just a really strange way of describing that particular church.
We're not really sure exactly what what that was all about. Well, anyways moving on it was interesting. Mr. Grodd. I seemingly wanted to emphasize some of the key arguments that Roman Catholic apologists use especially Against.
Especially against solo scriptura and so in this section he talks about the disagreements that exist amongst Protestants at the time.
Did it bother you at all that the Lutheran Church in the corner believe differently or the Presbyterian or even another Baptist? I mean did that ever cross your mind?
Well, like I said, I kind of was just very thankful that. That I was one of the chosen few who who understood better than they did and I even questioned their salvation.
Yeah.
Again, not really sure where that one's going either. I titled that one Lutherans and Baptists. Oh my. Of course that the first day it crosses my mind when I when I hear Marcus Grodd I saying that is is I want to say well Does it ever bother you that there are Dominicans and Augustinians and Franciscans?
And and you have all these the discounts Carmelites and you have all these other viewpoints out there within The Roman Catholic Church that has disagreements on this that or the other thing and and. Does that somehow mean something and I of course, that's why they don't have me on the program very often I'm sure because that would that really wouldn't accomplish what they were looking for.
Anyways now at this next one. This next one when we when we first when I first heard this and we had to go back and we had to listen to it. And unfortunately, he didn't say what we thought he said but actually Listen listen to the description of Me I I feel like saying I feel like changing my name to hello.
I'm mr. Sibling. I no longer have a name. I'm just mr. Sibling, but this description of me by by Marcus Grodd. I.
See if you can figure out what he's saying. Whatever. I'll be hard to the church, especially when you have such a vehement.
Sibling who's anti-catholic now? Let me let me play that one again because the story goes by pretty quick. It's only a seven second clip, but.
What what is what word is is describing sibling here will be hard to the church, especially when you have such a vehement Sibling who's anti-catholic? Now? What's that word again?
Ah, there we go. The he meant we thought he said behemoth. I Sort of I sort of thought that was sort of cool. You know, I sort of thought Yeah, the he meant a vehement sibling. I had never heard of a vehement sibling before.
But I guess what he's trying to paint the picture is of this just raw type of person out there. That's just constantly doing nothing. But you know chasing nuns around, you know behind the church or something and raw just wants to convert.
The.
Vehement sibling.
Which.
Again for simple honesty You would think that it would be brought out a vehement sibling that you never bothered to talk to about this and in fact wrote you a lengthy email in response to an anonymous email you sent to him and Etc. Etc. Etc.
But that of course didn't didn't didn't come out. But what was emphasized unfortunately, and I did I was concerned about this because this is important. This is important to the use that Catholic apologists want to make of this whole thing is they have to come up some way with some way of Maintaining the idea of a connection here so that.
The idea is my sister had Knew all of my books and had attended my debates and was a supporter of the ministry and all the rest of stuff. But then she saw the truth of the Catholic faith. Yadda. Yadda.
Yadda. That's not what happened. And my sister to this day does not have responses as we'll see in the last clip to the most fundamental Objections to the Roman Catholic position. And was unaware of much of our work before him but notice how in the Questioning and I did it did seem to me and to others as well that growed.
I want her to go there and she didn't want to go there. He wanted he kept bringing the issue up. She'd move someplace else if she had wanted to say much more about me. She could have. But it seemed he wanted her to say more listen to the the way this the question is phrased here.
So, okay, given all that background your anti-catholic background not just your past but the the constant influence of your sibling.
Whatever opened your heart to the challenge now. Did you catch that?
You're constant. Let me play it again. The constant influence of your sibling. The constant.
Influence of your sibling. Well constant influence, what does that mean? Does that mean that that there was a connection to where there was. She'd she'd discover some brilliant insight from Scott Hahn and would say well, what do you think about this and I'd go duh I don't know and that's why she converted.
No, that's not what happened instead you have No contact going on whatsoever. So I don't know what the Sibling I don't know what that means. There wasn't any constant influence of mr. Sibling. I Feel sorry if anybody has a name.
Hi, mr. Sibling that seemingly is is what I am anyways, but there was no constant influence of Of a sibling there. I would have Obviously had she contacted me and said, you know, I'm starting to look at this stuff.
It would have been more than happy to talk to her about it, but she did not. Well, what did she do. Well instead she went off and she found another source of information and what had happened was a few years earlier and I had heard about this to a particular individual who Does some sort of what should supposed to be missionary work in?
France had spoken at Northwest Community Church, which is the name of the church. She was going to and this individual had made some comments about Roman Catholicism even at the time That had gotten back to me and I hadn't really thought much about it and my sister didn't think much about much about either but she dug up his email and began Corresponding with him and here's what she says about that.
I'm really not giving it a lasting a lasting thought because it just wasn't relevant to my life at the time. But I knew that there was one person who had Investigated the church to some to some degree.
So I knew I couldn't go to my pastor because I I kind of knew what I'd get, you know. Run repent stay away from all that. I knew I couldn't go to my family because I already knew where they stood.
I didn't have I didn't have to ask I already knew. Well, that isn't the case. Notice she says, you know, she didn't Go to the pastors or church, even though we have been told that she was Confronted on these things probably not that particular point in time a little bit later and she did not go to her family.
She did not go to her father she did not come to me other than that as I said that actually this is even in the period of time before the Anonymous email that she sent to me instead. She contacted a man.
I'll go ahead and tell you who it is by name David Bjork and Mr. Bjork is a missionary. I guess that'd be a missionary missionary Because he's with the mission was is I don't know with the missionary denomination in France and That's where she was getting this kind of Information which I'll go to the next clip here.
She describes in the following words and in retrospect. I've looked back at everything.
He told me in several months that that I pretty much picked his brain and he he never once Told me anything that wasn't totally accurate about the church. So even though he's not Catholic himself He was objective and it just gave me this is what this is what I?
Understand the Catholic Church to believe and he cut church documents cut and paste the church documents and early church fathers and. What it did to me really was was show me that my previous beliefs about the church were were based on falsehood.
I didn't really understand the Catholic Church. Well that increased my desire to understand. I just had to know what was really believed.
Now there's a number of things that that go on there there's there is and there will be a Repetition of this in just a moment. And someone just asked that the missionary alliance. No it is not it is a different denomination.
But the The.
Assertion is going to be made that my books and My materials misrepresent the Roman Catholic Church.
And.
See he he provided to me. She says the these church Documents and and so on and so forth well So does the Roman Catholic controversy, but evidently if it was being provided by David Bjork, that's one thing but if it's being provided by her brother, that's another thing even if it's the same document and As the email that Mrs. Bond sent to me Indicated when she tried to read My books she said a dark cloud of depression came over her.
Well No matter what else you say that clearly indicates that what I have written was not looked at fairly. I have seen no evidence whatsoever that anything on the Website on Roman Catholicism including the documentation of numerous errors On the part of Roman Catholic apologists including those that she has chosen to be her favorites Has ever been even seen let alone looked at though.
She certainly would know it's there. And remember she has informed me that she has never been able to listen to a single debate because as soon as they start I am so mean and so unloving and so nasty that I Intimidate my opponents and so she won't listen to those debates.
Now all of that clearly indicates that there's Significantly more going on here than just a analytical Examination of facts that are available So on and so forth so this individual then David Bjork provides this information again only coming from One particular perspective and None of this is brought to anyone who could provide any type of response.
In fact I guess one thing that's nice is that if this is the final form of the testimony, and it's not going to You know Move from there, then it's very clear that from the beginning She never took the claims of Rome To anyone who could provide an answer because she just simply assumed that she knew however That it does not follow that she did know what the the answers what the answers truly were to those Issues.
Now this next section is most interesting this next Quotation it's about a minute and a half and this is where I can start understanding what's going on because here she discusses what happened in July of 2000 and that if you've read the document on our website is when I received the anonymous email that I did respond to in regards to The attraction of the Roman Catholic Church so on and so forth and listen carefully at the beginning concerning This particular Just listen carefully what said probably about let's see looking here about 15 seconds in.
So part of me was excited and part of me was was worried. And and I knew that the toughest thing I could put myself through who was to read my brother's works. And in fact I've heard from many a convert since I came home who said that was their good last gauntlet as well.
Is we knew that the toughest thing to get through. If we could get through your brother's books and know that God wanted us to Be Catholic there was no doubt in our mind, and I've had many letters like that.
I Didn't know that at the time, but that was the gauntlet. I threw down for myself as well, so I spent early July waiting through a couple more of his books, and I'd already read the book on Mary earlier and and It was a tough time because the things he was saying no longer rang true.
I Knew too much about the faith. I knew what what I was watching was someone do a very good job of destroying a church that didn't exist.
No.
Explain that that's interesting the way you said that he was doing a good job of destroying a church that didn't exist. Well.
His his arguments against the church are based on misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church actually teaches and believes. But he does a superb job of Defeating the arguments he perceives to be What the church is and so they are troublesome to a lot of people and if they don't understand.
You know Catholics don't understand what they believe or an outsider doesn't understand what the Catholic Church really teaches. It sounds very very effective, but.
Well, there's that was sort of the meat of the program. I would say. At least we got into some really important things. Now mrs. Bond's neglects to note in this entire program that she wrote the anonymous email that appears on our website.
I think that would be important. It would not have helped to say that she was not in contact with me during this time. Nor that she has always refused to listen to a single debate where the two sides can be heard side by side because such would Speak rather loudly.
Next in the emails mrs. Bond's has sent me. She has accused me of many things mainly of being arrogant egotistical and unloving. Especially when I would bring up any Roman Catholic teachings at all. But what she hasn't done is attempt to make a case that my arguments are straw men.
I mean, how could she straw men get ripped up in debates? Indeed the constant refrain of the better Roman Catholic apologists is that what sets out in Omega Ministries apart from the jack-chicks of our world?
Aside from our reform theology is the accuracy of our representations the Roman Church's teachings. Now it is a constant accusation that we misrepresent those we deal with and Just as constant is the failure of such people to document from the huge amount of material available such misrepresentations.
The careful listener will note that this program never gives a single example of a misrepresentation on my part. Mrs. Bond said she had read the book on Mary but she has never offered a single word of rebuttal or criticism of it and the person who reads.
The anonymous email she wrote at this time will note that her response to reading one of my books She did not say which one it was at the time was not you are misrepresenting the church. But quote I was overcome with a cloud of depression.
End quote. That is an emotional response not a critical response. She later said that this time caused her great distress. Yeah, reading the truth and not having an answer while continuing toward Rome does tend to cause distress.
Next I truly rejoice in her statement that she has had many many letters about people finding my books to be the last hurdle. I am sorry. They did not have ears to hear the truth, but I am greatly blessed to know that many others have.
Indeed for many others that hurdle was a God-given obstacle to their emotionally driven run in the arms of Rome. Ironically some of the nastiest emails this week completely contradicted the premise of this show which repeatedly emphasized How they anyway viewed the work of Alpha Omega Ministries as well-known Widespread and challenging the nasty grams the past week including the words of Mark Shea a Roman Catholic apologist Attempted to say just the opposite.
I Do wish they'd make a match to get their story straight amongst all of them. Ironically. Marcus Grodi then went on to say that Luther completely misunderstood Rome and Raised the issue of salvation by works saying that Luther was responding to the idea that Rome taught that you're saved solely by works.
What's ironic about that is anyone who has read my works or listened to my debates knows that I have never misrepresented Rome on this point and have always attacked its synergism. I Always point out that Trent condemned anyone who would say that you can That you can be saved by works alone.
Trent anathematized that the problem with Rome is its Synergism its attempt to join God's grace and the human will. I am a monergist and I of course have been very consistent on that and if if in point of fact There had been any reading and understanding of my position By mrs. Bonds that would not have been an issue.
Eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three. I see that Apollonio Latar just left the channel. I'm gonna have to scroll back up to see what nasty things he said, but Allegedly he can't listen today.
His real audio is messed up, but said something about a response. Let's take a look at that he said last week he was gonna call in but That happens very frequently. We're still waiting for Phil provost Nick to call in.
Having had a week now to respond to what we said last week. Maybe some of you would like to call in eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three. We'll be right back.
The history of the Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith. Once the core of the Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine. In his book the God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of Understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme.
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More than any time in the past Roman Catholics and evangelicals are working together. They are standing shoulder-to-shoulder against social evils they are joining across denominational boundaries in renewal movements and Many evangelicals are finding the history tradition and grandeur of the Roman Catholic Church appealing.
This newfound rapport has caused many evangelical leaders and laypeople to question the age-old disagreements that have divided Protestants and Catholics. Aren't we all saying the same thing in a different language?
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Org this portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church.
The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day. The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45. Evening services are at 6 30 p .m.
On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 to 6 grace. If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at PR BC org where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.
And welcome back to the dividing line. My name is James White. We are providing a response today concerning Concerning the the journey home. That's someone the chat jail to said someone quit listening so I can get back in.
Yes, we're. We're we're locking them in today. Indeed. We are responding to Monday evening is the airing of the the journey home and mrs. Bond's comments concerning the reasons for her conversion to Roman Catholicism, by the way.
Two new debates scheduled just in the past week that a number of you might want to know about. First on April 2nd now these you know are subject to change, but they're looking pretty pretty solid right now.
April 2nd I believe I can't give you the the location. I believe it's on the Campus of Biola in California. Right now the schedule is that I will be debating George Bryson of Calvary Chapel on the subject of Basically Calvinism and Some of you seen the two-part debate that he and I did in the CRI Journal.
We were going to do a debate on Hopefully a focused element. You can't not possibly do all of Calvinism in one night. And I think they want to keep these debates pretty Pretty focused and pretty sharp.
So that's going to be it's gonna be a challenge. But anyways, April 2nd is a Tuesday night.
In.
In LA, I believe with George Bryson and then three days later April 5th, I believe is the date for the debate in Salt Lake City with LDS attorney and apologist Martin Tanner and that will probably be on the Doctrine of God.
So that's going to be a busy week. So you all might want to Be praying for us for that week if you're in the California area we'll try to get more information up on the calendar page on the website on the website concerning details and locations and times and all the rest of stuff for both of those two debates and then in July we will have one week.
Oh in one week spans We'll be doing three debates three major debates as well. So some important stuff coming up. Keep that in mind. The work of the ministry Continues on now this next this next section is a little bit of is probably one of the Sadder sections and that is anyone who has read the Roman Catholic controversy knows that.
One of the well the thesis really of the book I mean I do spend a lot of time on soul scripture in that book. The thesis of the book is that Rome's gospel cannot give you peace. Rome's gospel because it is man-centered because it is focused upon what man does because God's grace is.
Is.
Unable.
To truly Provide The this the real grounds that the gospel requires in Roman Catholicism. Because of that the one thing you cannot have is is peace and That was one of the first things that I said to mrs. Bonds when I contacted her by email is You know someday when you want to when you want to know peace you will.
You will not be able to find it in the system that you are now that you're now embracing and hence I found it's ironic to listen to this section.
That was a real blessing because through through the first well the last few months before that phone call I'd had two requests of God. I said During I know this is of you. I know you're doing this in my life.
I know don't know where you're headed with this, but I know this is you that I'm dealing with. I'm asking for two things during this journey. One is peace.
Asking for one thing actually two things peace the other one was joy But asking for peace and It just is utterly ironic To go from having once professed the completed work of Christ To now professing the incompleted work of Christ the repetitive Sacrifice of the mass that cannot save it cannot perfect Etc etc etc.
It's just Truly an amazing thing that that someone would Would exchange that that would seem to indicate that there was never truly an understanding of the grounds in the first place that allowed for True peace with God and in the true gospel, but it is it is interesting now here this next section is is how?
Her choice came to be known to us.
We.
Sort of found out I mentioned on on the website. I found out my wife called me on my cell phone while I was in. Well I was in Clearwater, Florida actually and. The events that she describes in this clip had taken place that day back here in Phoenix.
They kind of found out by accident. I used to keep my crucifix in my shirt. And it was discovered one day and so I kind of on off the cuff had to explain what was going on and it was Very difficult very painful, and I felt very.
It's very hard to explain because having been on where they are and believed what they believe I Understand the grief of their heart. And I hurt for them. And at the same time I wish so much that I could give them a glimpse of what it's like over here So that they would know they have nothing to fear, but they they can't see that at this point.
Well can't see that or are unwilling to grant the primary thing that mrs. bonds has constantly insisted upon and that is we have to grant the validity of the Roman Catholic position to start and Once we grant that well You know there's all sorts different views.
And this is a valid point of view once we grant that that we can talk well if you're truly a biblical Christian a biblical believer. You don't grant that kind of alleged neutrality and you don't forget the history of Rome.
You don't forget the Inquisitions. You don't forget the mass. You don't forget the different gospel. You don't forget the denial of solo script or the teaching of paper the the papacy and purgatory and indulgences.
You don't forget all of that kind of stuff. You don't put that off to one side and say well We're not going to worry about that. That just simply isn't something that can be done, and so it's not that they quote-unquote are not ready.
It's that mrs. Bonds lays down an impossible Compromise to make to allow the conversation to even start. My email files are filled with the emails that I have sent and I've kept every single one of them the emails that I have sent raising issues about the cross about purgatory about the mass about Anything that she's raised I have responded to and as we're going to see here in a moment We'll see what kind of responses that those those types of discussions have actually Gotten only two more to listen to.
That means you can get online at eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three we have one person online. And we can take your phone calls as well at eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three this next section is rather interesting because It's in essence demonstrates.
I.
I've got to stop reading the channel when a certain person by name of Java is typing anything because it's really hard to Stay focused when when things like that go on by. But anyways This this next section I think really demonstrates From mrs. Bonds own own words the fact that she has really never been a part in any way shape or form of Alpha and Omega ministries and When you hear the end of her comments.
You will see exactly what it is. I'm referring to I I believe truly that the anger that you sense in in any anti-catholic attack or information Has its basis in an underlying knowledge, but more than likely a subconscious knowledge that that they're in rebellion from God's one true church.
I just find that especially in ex-catholics who who come after the church There's just this anger and a lot of my Catholic friends asked me. Why are they so angry? What are they so angry about and I said, I think it's it's the need to justify the fact that they're not home and So there's just a stiff-necked rebellion going on.
That's this is I'm not I'm not going there and I will not to submit to that Pope and So you feel that in what they have to say and that that that spirit of rebellion Where most Catholics when they relate to someone of a different opinion usually do it with with them a bit more tolerance of Various, you know opinions.
I I've never been Never had an encounter with a Catholic that was remotely Angry like that. Yeah.
I've never had an encounter with a Catholic that was remotely angry like that. Well.
Y 'all y 'all might want to talk to Rich Pierce about what he's been seeing in the email over the past week and a half and I'm going to be putting a an article up on the website. Just giving you the words of Mark Shea the words of art Sippo.
You can read the website article. It's up there right now with the words of Steve Ray dripping with with Pure hatred and anger and ad hominem personal attacks upon me as an individual. These have nothing to do with the issues at hand.
They are completely focused upon me as an individual and how mean and nasty I am but you see I she is right. She was never here to see that stuff. We never had a discussion Concerning the way that I'm treated by Roman Catholics on a regular basis, so she didn't know.
But I don't know if that's what they wanted to communicate was that she didn't know I think that just sort of snuck out. And probably in hindsight they would rather that that hadn't because that proves in light of what we can document concerning the behavior of Many Roman Catholics, and I'm not talking about you know.
You know Tony who called you know writes us an email says hey, I don't like what you're doing to beat you up. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the individual. Who is a published apologist?
People like Mark Shea people like Steve Ray who are on EWTN and They're published with Ignatius, and and they're published in the various magazines and so on so forth and they go off. I mean, it's just just it just you know the the acid in the face routine just nasty as can be and.
So it truly truly is amazing as to rebellion Against the true church, so that's that's a fascinating fascinating assertion of course. As we're about to demonstrate every time I have attempted to point out that that Rome's claims to be the true church.
Those those particular claims have have collapsed and I've tried to point those out to mrs. Bonds, but she won't listen to any of those debates because I am so mean and nasty that she can't listen to them and I'll let people judge themselves.
What what that means this last clip is Most interesting, and I'm going to read a I'm gonna read an email.
Swear that it was epistemologically silly and One of the quotes I think the only quote that I had chance to actually well not actually with more than one. But the one quote I spent the most time on was a quote.
That's constantly repeated by Roman Catholic apologists in various contexts and It is a citation from Ignatius of Antioch from around 107 The year AD 107 and it is utilized to assert that Ignatius believed in the doctrine of Transubstantiation in the mass and so on and so forth now.
I took that quote on last week with mr. Provoznik and Demonstrated that is a gross misuse and so on so forth and so it was just slightly ironic. To then sit down and watch the journey home and listen to this and just that little crack in the door was enough for me.
To begin to read the early church I remember the first time that I read the words of Ignatius of Antioch about the flesh. You know the Eucharist being the flesh and blood of Christ. I remember pushing my chair back away from the computer and gasping.
I've been robbed.
I've been robbed. Well, isn't it ironic that that's the exact same? Citation that I had dealt with last week and I say well, yeah, but she's not gonna listen last week. She wasn't even around probably or she was getting ready to leave her.
Well, I Started thinking about and I started going. You know what? I Have dealt with that passage with mrs. Bonds and I dealt with it long before the journey home on Monday night and so I started doing a little digging around and I was right.
I'm gonna read an email to you all. This is an email sent to my sister the date Friday March 9th.
2001.
So this was 10 months ago Friday March 9th 2001. Pat. If I respond to that email message now, let me back up a second. I am referring here to an email message. She sent me That made reference to Scott Hahn and I had sent it to her.
I think maybe the day before something like that if I responded that email message fully. Would you read it? Would you read my discussion of Ignatius's words Augustine's doctrine of the physical nature of Christ resurrection body?
Han said the following in the article you referenced in it and here's a quotation from Scott Hahn. So we have testimony throughout all the first centuries of the church this effect your hard-pressed I would say it is practically impossible to find a single statement by anybody in the first eight centuries of the church.
Where you have a denial of the real presence of Jesus Christ flesh and blood body soul and divinity there in the Eucharist. I remember when I first discovered that I was still anti-catholic. But boy did that bother me because I wondered how could John's disciple get it?
So wrong, how could st. Ignatius say something so patently false and superstitious after spending all this time to feed the beloved disciple st John now I'm convinced that he didn't get it wrong. Now I'm convinced that Vatican to got it right when it said in the sacrament of the Eucharist the unity of believers who formed one body In Christ is both experienced and brought about we are in a sense what we eat.
We're only in the supernatural body of Christ because in the Eucharist we receive the supernatural body of Christ. That's the end of the quote from Han. Are you in a position to find out he's an error, this is my continuing.
I'm sorry, just reading something in the in the channel. This is me continuing now after the quote of Han. Speaking to my sister I say are you in a position to find out he's an error or would I be wasting my time?
For example check out the text of a recent email on this very subject and then I insert the text and the first. Three paragraphs are quote from a Roman Catholic and I'll tell you when it switches over to my response.
The question was about the words of an early first century witness the apostolic faith Ignatius. Look at my first post. It was and is a very simple question. Ignatius writing in about 110 Said of certain heretics they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ Which suffered for our sins in which the father of his goodness raised up again clearly He did confess what the heretics did not.
The question is can you wholeheartedly confess what Ignatius confessed and certain of his contemporaries did did not? Specifically that the Eucharist the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ which suffered for our sins in which the father of his goodness raised up.
Again, look at the end of the Roman Catholic. Here's then The response to that person that I included in the email if I could comment, please the passage you cited reads as follows. Let no man deceive himself.
Both the things which are in heaven and the glorious angels and rulers both visible and invisible if they believe not in the blood of Christ shall in consequence incur condemnation. He that is able to receive it let him receive it let not high place puff anyone up for that Which is worth all is is a faith and love to which nothing is to be preferred.
But consider those who are of different opinion with respect to the grace of Christ Which has come unto us how opposed they are to the will of God. They have no regard for love no care for the widow or the orphan or the oppressed of the bond or of the free of the hungry and or of the thirsty.
They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ Which suffered for our sins and which the father of his goodness raised up again.
Those therefore who speak against this gift of God incurred death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect that they also might rise again. It is fitting therefore that you should keep aloof from such persons and not to speak of them either in private or in public.
But to give heed to the prophets and above all to the gospel of which the passion of Christ has been revealed to us and the Resurrection has been fully proved but avoid all divisions as the beginning of evils.
Then I continued my commentary after quoting the full context of Ignatius. And I said it seems to me the context is proto Gnostic heretics, especially the set X Ignatius was obviously influenced deeply by John and John's concern over the reality of the physical Incarnation is well known.
So I'd suggest that the original context the passage is speaking to the reality of the incarnation. So the reason the heretics refused to partake of the supper is not due to some rejection of Transubstantiation or any other such concept that developed long after this instead.
They will not partake because they deny Christ had a body to be represented by the bread and the wine participation in the supper includes an Affirmation of the reality of the incarnation. Hence their unwillingness to do so.
I wonder though if you are familiar with this quotation from Ignatius as well. Then I quoted from trolley and Zate which says. Wherefore clothing yourselves with meekness be renewed in faith. That is the flesh of the Lord and in love.
That is the blood of Jesus Christ. End quote. And I finished my email that I'm quoting to my sister by saying is there a way to Consistently interpret Ignatius in both passages that does not require an unnatural insertion of a later development into his thinking.
I think so then going back to what I then I that's the end of the quotation now going back to what I said to my sister. You don't often see the folks at the CHN that's coming home network quoting Ignatius and trolley and Zate.
Do you nor do you often read these words of Augustine either then I quote Augustine His tractates on John number 50 92 102 and 118 in these words in other words in respect of his divine presence in the flesh.
It was rightly said to the disciples me. You will not have always in this respect the church enjoyed his presence only for a few days. Now it possesses him by faith. Without seeing him with the eyes. He left the world by a bodily withdrawal.
He proceeded to the father by his ascension. But he forsook not the world in the ruling activity of his presence the Lord Jesus in the discourse which he addressed to his disciples after the supper when himself in immediate proximity to his passion and As it were on the even eve of depriving them of his bodily presence while continuing his spiritual presence to all his disciples till the very end of The world.
And I also gave another quote from tractate 2512 which says. Who is the bread of the kingdom of God? But he who says I am the living bread which came down from heaven do not get your mouth ready. But your heart on this occasion.
It was that the parable the supper was set forth lo. We believe in Christ. We receive him with faith and receiving him. We know we know what to think of. We receive but little and are nourished in the heart.
It is not then what is seen but what is believed that feeds us. Therefore we too have not sought for that outward sense. This is then to eat the meat not that which perishes but that which endures unto eternal life.
To what purpose do you make ready teeth and stomach. Believe and you have eaten? Already. To which I then continued since historians like Philip Schaaf Recognized that Augustine's view of the physical body of Christ and resulting spiritual nature of the Eucharist had to be overcome.
For transubstantiation become dogma 700 years after Augustine's death Hans assertion is proven to be how shall we put it a tad bit inflated?
Indeed.
You quoted Cyril of Jerusalem in your note back in July of last year. I think you took it from Hans lecture. Be that as it may. I have a favorite Cyril quote, too. And then I finished with this quotation.
In regard to the divine and holy mysteries the faith not the least part may be handed on without the holy scriptures. Do not be led astray by winning words and clever arguments. Even to me who tell you these things do not give ready belief.
Unless you receive from the holy scriptures the proof of the things which I announce. The salvation which we believe is not proved from clever reasoning but from the holy scriptures. That of course is Cyril Jerusalem catechetical lectures 417.
And then I had my. My citation. Just got a call from a guy upset because any complains about Scott Hahn. I want to debate him yet na won't debate. Thinker.
Are you serious?
Oh.
Okay, well That's that's fascinating. There's a there's there's interesting interesting comment. Well anyways now the point of course of this that we were to take a break then take start taking our phone calls.
So get in line before I got at least one online and it certainly would have been interesting to have that guy on on the line. Because we'd love to discuss thinker. The lady I think it's lady anyways who is on IRC.
That's just fascinating truly is anyways the point of course of citing the email is that I Never heard back on those citations. Just one thing. I did hear back this. My sister informed me that she would send my citations from Augustine to Timothy Staples.
Yes, Timothy Staples graduate of the Jimmy Swagger Bible College Who lost the debate at Fullerton on papal infallibility in probably the more glowing colors than anyone else that ever debated? But that's going to be the source for her response to the Augustine citations.
So it's obvious that when on the program she pushes her seat back from notice. It was the computer not from a book. Notice that it was merely this is this was undoubtedly a snippet. It wasn't in its context.
There wouldn't be any background. There wouldn't be any of those things that I offered when she did that. Did she ask me? No, she says she knows what I would say. No, she didn't because when I then told her what I would have said.
She has no response. But that's a sad thing. But you see what it also tells me. Is that if and when and it's the that it's not if when Rome's sacraments when Rome's ceremonies. Become empty when the newness wears off.
Then she knows in her own heart that she didn't listen she never asked and She will know in her own heart that there is one group of people That showed real Christian love by never Compromising the only gospel that can give her peace she'll know who she can talk to and She'll know that there's lots of things we have to say that that in reality.
In reality, she's never heard and we'll be ready to share. So that is a good thing. We're going to take our phone calls right after this break. 866 -854 -6763 is the phone number and.
The Java man is up first when we come back after this break. What is dr.
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And welcome back to the dividing line. My name is James White's and we have just given a response to the journey home Program from Monday evening and now we're taking your phone calls. By the way, just another announcement.
I have sitting next to me the galleys to the same sex controversy. My next book co-authored with Jeff Neal for Bethany house publishers 250 pages biblical refutation of the homosexual position the revisionist position that says the Bible does not condemn homosexuality.
And we're finishing up the. The edits the galleys is the last thing you see before it goes to press. So it's on the fast track and we should be able to announce to you Hopefully in a matter of weeks when that is going to be available and make it available on the website for pre-publication Orders so you can get your copy and that will be coming out real quick.
Eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three. Let us begin with our first caller.
The Java man, how you doing Java? I'm doing pretty good for an old man. I'm gonna let you know when rich asked me what I was going to ask. It was very reminiscent of your first comments to me. I had to get a handkerchief to wipe the flowing tears.
Now now, you know someone someone such as yourself who can do things who can do such tremendous things like you know.
Well.
Sing. Why can't I hear this? Why is my computer down? My computers down there? Yeah. Hey, does that sound familiar. You gotta be careful man, I do know how to move files from CDs to computers. So I've got all this stuff available.
Anyways, that's not why you were calling it.
So actually I wanted to say that and although my memory is not quite as good as it used to be being an old man I cannot recall ever Hearing a Catholic opponent of yours claim that you were misrepresenting that they've ever challenged you on.
It was your Came into existence, but I never I don't recall. I mean I may be wrong, but I just don't recall ever a Catholic opponent saying to you dr. White. We do not believe that in the Catholic Church, right?
So I was I was I was that immediately came to my mind when I heard your sister Say that you were this. Well, this church doesn't exist. I've heard offended the things that you affirm.
They believe right, right. Well, and and of course that has been one of the things that in the few articles that have appeared We're actually my name appeared as well. One of the things they've said is well, you know This type of material is is different than most of the stuff we deal with because it's more scholarly or or it's Is is a better representation so on so forth.
You would think given the number of books and debates we've done that if it was my? General Modus operandi to constantly misrepresent the people that I was disagreeing with. That there would be just reams of documentation.
But there isn't. And in fact when individuals do try to take on for example The Roman Catholic controversy as Stephen O 'Reilly has tried to do in the pages of this rock magazine I've been able to refute each one of his assertions.
And he wasn't saying I was misrepresenting. He was saying that I misunderstood church history or I wasn't taking into account this element of church history. Whatever else it might be but the idea that I that's a stall straw man argumentation.
My sister had never even said that to me until this particular situation.
So my prayers are with you and your sister.
That's most most definitely the case and I I think I mentioned to you the fact that it's been extremely encouraging seeing the Emails that have been coming in from all sorts of folks Who have read that article and have just been tremendously encouraged to witness to their families.
Many people who are the only people who've been saved out of Catholicism in their families have written and they've been encouraged by it and I got a very touching one from a gentleman in Florida who talked about how he's had an attraction to the liturgy and things like that and how the The response really helped him in that way and and he's a good good friend of mine and and that those those gentlemen Will have no idea how encouraging those things were to see that you know I didn't when I put that website web article up.
I wasn't thinking along those lines. I mean, maybe that's that's definitely wrong on my part. I wasn't thinking about how there would be lots of folks who'd be encouraged to witness to their families because of this.
I was just trying to Testify to the truth of how this situation has been handled and lo and behold the Lord turns these things to his glory. Anyway, so as I've heard you say if the Lord can save you he can save anybody, right?
That's right. Now one last thing I wanted to say. There's there's one Catholic I can think of that. I would love the right who had a completely different description of you.
Than your sister had. Yep. And in fact, I sent his email to my sister and Where he says in his email. He says, you know. Well, how would how would you characterize it? He basically, you know is is just gushing about The accuracy of my presentation and you've made me think about all sorts of things so on so forth.
Yeah, right. Like behavior, right. Exactly. And then you may recall. What was the names gentleman the name the name of the gentleman who at the beginning of the debate? Americans United for the Pope Arnold Pilsner at the beginning likewise had some kind words and I even offered.
I said I said Pat I'll send you.
The the.
The tape. I'll send you the tape. I'll let you you know, watch this. Tell me, you know. How this does not testify to the truthfulness of what I said. But she has no interest in in receiving that information or looking at that information.
And so, you know, it's it's not going to go away and I believe that there will be a time. There will be an opportunity in the future to do that. And you know. Patience is a good thing when you're as old as you and I, you know.
Get way up there, you know, and that's at least you and I wish you and I are only about half as old as Skyman.
So.
One thing is very interesting about that journey home program is that the Identical because they want to talk about doctrinal issues. They want this because I think that's they know that that's why people convert to Catholicism, right?
All right. Yeah I've when I was listening to you WTN a lot last July when I was teaching they have radio station in San Francisco the the all I mean the voice has changed but the the words didn't and it was.
It was just the constant there's I think there's they they know that people need a reaffirmation of this because eventually Eventually it gets old eventually the the newness of the of the Sacraments and all their all the pageantry and stuff after a while.
You've seen that before it gets old. It does not satisfy and so there needs to be a Reaffirmation of yeah, you did the right thing. Yeah, you did the right thing. But it's you know Once the Spirit of God starts so working on someone's heart that'll never that'll never keep the spirit of the spirit at bay.
That's for sure. Well, anyways, thank you very much. Mr. Java man for calling today. We'll have to have to start I apologize. We haven't been promoting Your your musical works as much as as much as we need to.
But you know, maybe you know sometimes oh there look at that. There's there's one now I I don't know how that would all of a sudden just start playing like that, but Okay, well, you know, I'm still expecting some professional recordings of some other songs yeah.
Okay, man, thanks for calling. Eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three. Some of you have not heard. Those songs I have played them they are in the In the archives someplace, but right now I think our archives are sort of hard to get hold of.
Yes debate debate says in the night.
Yes.
Java man came up with a great one a couple weeks ago. Debate is in the night exchanging insults. It's great. But see I'm already starting to sound like him. It's a terrible thing. Let's see. Eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three is the phone number that David in Austin, Texas called.
Let's talk with David. Hi David. Hey James. How you doing?
You may know me as MDHughes in the channel. Ah, yes, sir. I didn't want to say because I didn't want to hear Microsoft jokes.
Well, actually the way that your your your Comments or your question was given to me in private message from the other side of the wall Basically seemed to indicate that I thought that you were going to be saying that I sound like Oprah Winfrey.
So I was like what in the world is that all about? So no, I just wanted to point out.
I saw the program myself and.
It.
Reminded me. I expected to see Oprah Winfrey opposite of her job. I made a good comment. It was emotionalism. It was just nothing was was based on anything solid or objection objectionable. It was objectionable, right.
But objective it was. It was all just how she felt. How you know about being Converting Roman Catholic and I can definitely see how a lot of people get sucked into that.
Well, it's very attractive in in a subjective society where Religious decisions are based upon allegedly how you feel. Even though and I didn't play it I almost made a clip out out of it this morning, but I I didn't there is one of the calls asked something about Had her feelings waned since her second conversion so on so forth and she made a fascinating Comment and that was she said we we can't live our lives by emotions.
Our feelings have to be based upon fact. And I'm sort of sitting here listening to that going. Am I missing something here? Because that's what I've been that's what I've been saying from the very beginning here.
Let's let's get down to these facts. Let's talk about these things and that's why I still hold out that that great hope that that time will come and That's why I've been very upfront about these things.
Obviously, we didn't discuss these things until she made the decision to to do this program to get out there and to you know. Start putting her testimony on websites and things like that. We in fact the folks here at the ministry will tell you if you want to check this out.
You can talk to him the folks at the ministry will tell you that just if in fact Warren's on the other side of the wall here and I forget how long ago was it wasn't that long ago. Maybe a month month and a half ago Rich comes over to the Monday night workout.
You've heard about our Monday night workouts. We get pumped up and we do theology between sets and he was getting hit with all these questions about Patty's conversion and so I.
Warren and I like to do some competition now. He's sitting over there going. Oh, I knew he was gonna say this. I knew he was going there. I just I couldn't and sometimes he beats me. Sometimes I beat him.
But the competition I warned the competition. He's coming up behind me. What's that in your hand Warren? Oh, no, I'm sorry. The competition really helps us to push each other. Well, we were doing what are called t-bars where you're it's a it's a back exercise and I've got a t-bar row and Rich was saying Look, I really want to put something on the website.
I said look people listen to me we're not putting anything on the website until my sister does something publicly and They kept pushing it. I said look I'm in charge of this ministry and I'm putting my foot down and I stomped my foot down and Warren will tell you because he will never forget this.
He was sitting there going. Oh, no, they're getting him mad and see we're in a competition. So I got all cranked we had the maximum amount of weight on the thing I did like 20 reps or 22 reps or something like that and Warren did too.
So I was I was angry and rich will tell you and he said we ain't we ain't doing nothing until she goes public. Well, it wasn't what three days four days later. The web article showed up where she was putting your conversion story out there and then we discussed.
And then we found out about the the coming home and so on so forth. So we didn't want to go this direction. We wanted to you know, give her every opportunity to in essence come to her senses and to to leave those doors open.
So You know, yes 20 to 2. I believe yes. It was there 20 to 2. Yeah 20 20 reps to 2 reps. Yes, so forever and always that my failure will be. People will okay. Out the archives and you beat me 20 reps to 20 reps to 2 however, however last week even after you had been sick and on antibiotics you did three reps on incline bench and On the on the incline curls and I only did one so that you tripled me on that one.
So does that make you feel better? Okay, your your reputation for being fair and objective is still intact. Okay, rich turn off his microphone. Okay, then afterwards we did standing curls. I doubled you up but anyways I'm sorry.
We're doing this to you David. It's just you know, just let you know, we have fun here on the program and we're just not. Hey, yes from what I understand you're getting your exercise right now chasing around people that only go up to your knees.
That's that that's a back workout. Let me tell you something. You're you're getting a back workout every day with all little ones so anyhow, but you are exactly right. It's it's very much focused upon the emotional and that's why I say the emotional fades the newness goes away and that that's my hope that the Holy Spirit will then Utilize that opportunity in the future once that's a raw emotionalism is gone.
To start looking for something that's solid. It's solid ground because as you and I both know Emotions are not the basis for anything like that. Well James a quick follow-up question.
I just didn't come out of the program. I'm not really sure was she encouraged by somebody. Other than herself to come forward maybe in in among Roman Catholics. Or was it something she decided to do?
Really good question. She didn't say. It is self-evident from the emails. I've received that she has for at least six months been in contact with Timothy Staples Scott Hahn Marcus Grodi Steve Ray. Art Sippo says that he was in contact with her early on and so the entire Roman Catholic apologetic community has been Just licking its chops over this and I should say.
And I mentioned this in the web article, but I'll mention it again very early on. Father Mitchell Pacwa Told me what he had told Pat and that was don't insert yourself into the apologetic realm. Don't don't get involved in that kind of thing.
Don't be used that way. Obviously his advice eventually was not followed. But at least he was one of the few people who didn't do What I'm sure others were strongly Pushing her to do but as to who it was, I don't know.
Was it a group of people? I would I would assume that it probably was. What was the timing. Not sure. Not sure. All righty, sir. Thank you. Thank you for calling. God bless. Alrighty, I don't see. Is that light going?
Bye-bye. I don't see any other phone calls. Eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three eight six six. Eight five four six seven six three is the phone number if you would like to get involved in the program today.
We still have Enough time for probably one more good call coming in in regards to Some of the channels trying to talk to me while I am talking on the air. It's a difficult thing to do. But Tess in channel is asking you what I think of Calvary Chapel, and I suppose that's a good time to Reannounce the debate that I'll be doing against George Bryson of Calvary Chapel on the subject of the doctrines of grace probably specifically is there a divine decree of election at Biola Mart.
I'm sorry April 2nd over in California and once we get more details as to time specific location It's supposed to be they're talking multiple thousands of people as far as attendance here now I you know, I've heard that before but you know, who knows but we will be letting you know or which direction it will go and Make sure that you have the opportunity if you're in the LA area to be on what I would like to see happen quite honestly I think the the way to air this best and we're going to we're shooting for this and I I am open to do it and I think I'm really hoping this is going to happen.
I'm just throwing this out so you all can pray that it does happen. But since mr. Bryson, I just finished a written debate in the pages of Christian Research Journal. What we'd like to see happen would be prior to the formal debate at Biola.
An appearance of myself and mr. Bryson on the Bible and Saman broadcast to debate the issue that way. That would be I think the best way to do it when mr. Staples and I have done that. We did three hours on the Bible and Saman and then a three-hour debate that allows You know a good a fair amount of discussion of issues.
I've been told that these debates follow the Bonson Stein format. And are only about 90 minutes in length, which is very very fast very very demanding and That length of debate always leaves all sorts of questions.
That would be going from another direction. Someone else just asked. Did you say last week that you might be doing a debate on paedo-baptism? Well. Eventually there has been a discussion of doing one on the East Coast and one and doing one on the West Coast in either case.
Those are not yet scheduled. And who knows if they'll if they'll happen and and when and so on and so forth, but I can tell you one thing those particular Debates will be done in a Christian manner. They will be done as an intramural debate because I Embrace my brothers and sisters in Christ who are Presbyterians as brothers and sisters in the Lord they are my some of them are very very close to me and So those those types of debates are very very different those are where we get to sit down.
As in in the bond of love and discuss what the scriptures say. Concerning that very important issue, but we still get to do that within the bond of love. And that's how we've done it in the past and that's the only way that I will ever do it because that's that's the only way to do it and So that would be something I'd be looking forward to.
I have addressed that issue of recently. Last July in fact at was that August? I think it was August at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. There are some sermons on that on our website. There are lots of sermons out there from the other perspective so I suppose it's fair to have a few from from the this perspective as well and Someone's yelling out the covenants in yeah, that's my response to the covenant the new covenant.
But then we won't get into that on the program today. But anyways Lots of stuff coming up debates on open theism inclusive ism July 11th the debate against Patrick Madrid on Long Island at Lord willing the Huntington townhouse.
On the subject of the veneration of Saints prayers and veneration of Saints. That's going to be I think a very Important debate and I hope that everybody will be praying about that one as well. Lots of preparations still trying to find time in the midst of everything else to finish up this book on Harold campings.
False teaching concerning the church a book that Calvary Press is publishing. Entitled entitled that is not the right word. It is titled. Thank you very much and titled is a different verb, isn't it? Yes, it is different.
Thank you titled dangerous airwaves.
Anyone who wants to say hey, where do you get those cool titles? Well, guess what? Java man came up with that one as well. Dangerous airways, we will give him proper credit. And by the way, I haven't mentioned this and I'm very very bad bad bad man for not having done so.
If you go to a omen org, you will see in the upper right hand side. Yes, I pissed you. Oh, I understood what you were doing. And I appreciate that. In the upper right hand side you who is debating for open theism John Sanders?
It will be my opponent for that. On the upper right hand side of the website. You will see a really pretty cruise ship. Floating down a beautiful section of ocean next to the Alaskan wilderness and we have a cruise coming up and If you'd like to go on a cruise where I will be speaking on apologetics issues and be pampered and treated like royalty for seven.
Days.
For about half or less of the cost that it is normal normally charged to Cruise the inside passage because we lock these rates in just a few days after. 9 -1 -1. That's the link to click on because that particular Cruise is coming up at the end of August.
And so you need to if you've been thinking about it or didn't know about it, whatever go to ailment org click on that link and Take a look at it and see if that might be something. I know that we've gone on two cruises now my wife just really wanted to go on a cruise really really bad and So much so that when the first offer came in she said we're going on that cruise whether I have to teach or not.
So we we went and we loved it. And the Christian Fellowship is just Awesome on those those cruises. It truly is. I don't get much in the way of vacations don't really get vacations at all, but Anyways, it's it's just the food alone is just a tremendous tremendous thing.
I now sound like a MacArthur promo. Well, he goes on him too. But you know, what can I say tell them about me? Oh Well, my daughter's name is summer and she's in the chat room. What about you. What am I supposed to tell them that you were.
You're on your junior high school Volleyball team and you're undefeated. You went on the cruise. Yes, you went on the second cruise and You thought that it was just the cat's meow that it was the greatest thing that you've ever done and you're all excited about going On the next one and so everyone who wants to go on a cruise and meet summer.
Don't worry about me. Don't worry about anybody else, but if you want to meet summer, then you need to sign up soon and get ready to. If a omen buys me a cruise I'll debate Jared W on baptism if I lose you can throw me overboard.
Well, that would be that would be a good way, but what happens if you win. We're in the midst of a whole bunch of water. So what do you do splat, you know try to splash at me or something like that? You're not that doesn't make any sense anyways.
You you come on you come on along. There pissed you oh and you'll you'll enjoy the enjoy the cruises. Do they need opera singers on those cruises? It's interesting watching the things in the channels they as they scroll by it is a lot of a lot of fun being in there.
Anyways, I hope the discussion today has been of assistance to you has helped you to understand what the issues of truth really are and I hope that as you go back and listen to these last two archived programs you will see that our greatest concern is for the purity and integrity of the gospel because that is The power of God in the salvation despite the fact that our world is extremely confused on these issues.
The only way to show true Christian love is to speak the gospel and to speak it with clarity. And so don't buy into the strange ideas the world around us. Don't buy into the humanism of the world around us.
Many of those who've written Complaining that I would even address this subject truly have embraced humanistic concepts if we read the New Testament for what it says. Then the greatest act of love that we can show to anyone is to preach and proclaim to them the gospel of Jesus Christ and to Do so without compromise.
That's what we've attempted to do and by God's grace. We will continue to do it. Thanks for listening and God bless.
The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries. If you'd like to contact us call us at 602 9 7 3 0 3 1 8 or write us at p .o Box 3 7 1 0 6 Phoenix, Arizona 8 5 0 6 9. You can also find us on the world wide web at a omen org That's a o m i n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks.
Join us again next Saturday afternoon at 2 p .m. For the dividing.