The Coming Home Network

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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February 16, 2002

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01:23: Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is the Dividing Line.
01:29: The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.
01:37: Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.
01:43: This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you would like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602.
01:51: Or toll free across the United States, it's 1 -866 -854 -6763.
01:56: And now with today's topic, here is James White. And good afternoon and welcome to the
02:02: Dividing Line. My name is James White. That is a name you can repeat if you wish to, even though there are some folks who evidently have a problem pronouncing that particular name.
02:12: And what are we talking about? Well, of course, we're talking about Monday evening's presentation of the
02:18: Journey Home on the EWTN network, where my sister, Patti Bonds, appeared and talked about her conversion to Roman Catholicism.
02:28: But it was a fascinating program, not so much for what was said, but for what wasn't said,
02:37: I guess you might say. I'm trying to turn sound off here. Okay, there we go.
02:44: Anyways, and that is, many references were made to myself, though a name was never attached to me.
02:53: I'm not really sure what exactly that's all about. I guess that's sort of the Envoy Magazine way of doing things.
02:59: So you may recall a few years ago, Envoy Magazine, I was on the front cover, though it wasn't me, they put something in front of my face, and did a whole article refuting what
03:08: I had said in a footnote in an article I did on the Doctrine of the Trinity. But they never bothered to say who
03:14: I was. They didn't give any references. You couldn't go look anything up. I found it absolutely amazing. Well, that has continued.
03:21: And of course, in a fascinating way that I think communicates some stuff to us that's actually rather encouraging.
03:27: Let me give an example. We're going to be playing sections from the program today, and making comments and responding to them.
03:34: And then there are various individuals like Phil Provosnick and others that we have challenged to call into the program at 866 -854 -6763.
03:43: And if there's some things we say you'd like to take issue with, you can call that number and we will be taking your phone calls today on the program later on.
03:53: But much to get to, what I found truly fascinating in this first clip is before Mrs.
04:01: Bonds said word one, Marcus Grodi said this.
04:06: Our guest this evening, Patti Bonds, is going to talk to us about her journey of faith, journey into the
04:12: Catholic Church. And I need to tell you something about Patti. Patti, you may not recognize the name
04:17: Patti, but if I told you the name of her brother, you would probably recognize. She's the sister of a prominent, well -known anti -Catholic apologist.
04:26: If I mentioned his name, many of you would be familiar with his books and tapes. And I would say that in that sense,
04:33: Patti's conversion to the Catholic Church was very difficult for her because of those pressures of being the sister of a well -known apologist.
04:44: So we need your prayers tonight. This is going to be a difficult time, but she's here to share her journey. Nothing was said whatsoever by Mrs.
04:54: Bonds prior to that introduction. And I am a prominent, well -known anti -Catholic apologist.
05:00: Well, of course, we've gone over the gross inconsistency of the constant use of anti -Catholic by Roman Catholic apologists.
05:09: They would, of course, object to the constant use of the phrase anti -Protestant. If I were to refer to Marcus Grodi as an anti -Protestant, he would go, no, no, no,
05:18: I think Protestants are Christians, and even though I affirm the anathemas of Trent, yada, yada, yada.
05:26: We've already discussed the fact that this is a term that is used to attempt to poison the well. It is something we've called them on over and over again, and it's just something that evidently they are more than happy to continue in the hypocritical use of this term and not engage the subjects in a fair way.
05:44: But it is interesting, a prominent, well -known anti -Catholic apologist, you would recognize his tapes and books, but isn't it interesting that one of the things that does not come out in this program is that the guest has not listened to any of those tapes, and only began to read some of the books as a part of the conversion process, and even then, in a very emotional fashion, by her own confession.
06:13: That I would think would be relevant to the issues at hand, but unfortunately it did not come out and was not mentioned in the process of the program.
06:24: Well anyways, we move on. I have 13 clips I'm going to play today. I'm not going to try to dwell very long on any one of them, except maybe the last one, and we do want to be able to take some phone calls today, so I do invite folks to get on the line when they have an opportunity to do so at 866 -854 -6763.
06:40: One of the ironies that I have pointed out to my sister in emails once it was announced to the family that she was converting, and for those of you who haven't listened before, have not read the article on our webpage, which is www .aomin
06:55: .org slash luke1251 .html. It's also the main page article right now, if you just go to aomin .org,
07:02: but as you listen to this on archive, that will change. One of the things that I have mentioned is that as she went through this process, she did not talk to me.
07:13: She sent me one anonymous email, that anonymous email is posted with my response on the website, and by the way,
07:20: I do need to say this, I want to thank the many people who have sent emails this past week, giving your testimony of how blessed you have been by that article.
07:35: There have been people who have just been tremendously helped by the response that I wrote to my sister's anonymous email.
07:43: I did not know it was my sister, I did not know who this person was, but I felt constrained to provide a rather full response to the email.
07:51: Of course, the Roman Catholics who have responded haven't responded to any of the substance of the email at all, that is the standard way that things work in that particular situation.
08:02: But many others have been very helped by what was written there, and if that's why I ended up doing it, then that's great.
08:08: I just want to thank all those people, the tremendous outpouring of support that has come across the electronic wires, shall we say, over the past week.
08:21: Tremendous support for what we've done, the stance that we've taken, and standing for truth, and so on and so forth.
08:27: So I did want to say that, but anyways, after finally it came out, and there is a section in the
08:33: Word of Play for you where my sister talks about how it did come out that she was converting, when it finally did come out, and I contacted her by email, and I started challenging the beliefs that she was adopting, one of the things
08:46: I pointed out was that my sister has been baptized three different times, and each time that involved, in essence, the repudiation of what had happened before.
08:57: Each time she felt, I wasn't saved before, it wasn't real before, now it's real, now
09:02: I've come to an understanding that makes this baptism real, etc., etc. And what's fascinating, one of the things
09:09: I pointed out and never really got a response to in email, was that from Rome's perspective, her first baptism justified her.
09:19: Her first baptism is what made her right before God, even though she has twice said that it didn't, which
09:26: I find fascinating. Here's her comments on that. I can remember learning the basic tenets of the
09:31: Gospel as we understood it, and reciting them back to my parents, much to their glee, and when
09:39: I was six years old, I made what we refer to as a profession of faith, I prayed with my father and asked
09:44: Jesus to be my Lord and Savior, and later, just a little less than a year from then, he baptized me.
09:52: So that would have been the first initial experience of justification from the
09:58: Roman Catholic perspective, one of the many reasons that we reject the
10:03: Roman Catholic perspective. Now one of the things as we, Monday evening, sat around and watched the program that made everyone who was watching sort of stop and eyes get real big and people started looking at each other, was the description that was provided of the church that Mrs.
10:25: Bonds was in until her conversion to Roman Catholicism. That church is a member of the missionary denomination, and we've been in contact with that church as well, and it was fascinating to hear the description that was provided of that church.
10:47: Here's how it went. The particular church I was going to at the time, which was a wonderful church, and I owe them much as far as having taught me what it meant to follow
10:59: Christ, but we kind of saw ourselves, I think, as being the very few people in the world who really understood
11:10: God properly and his word properly. Did you use the word remnant? Oh yes.
11:15: We were very Calvinist Baptist and saw ourselves as that chosen few who really understood him well.
11:24: And it was a very narrow world. In a sense, your small group of believers, based on the idea of scripture alone, as the foundation, yet on top of that believe that your small group had the one true, would that be caricature or would that be a clear way of describing it?
11:45: No, that's definitely true. Now I can pretty much guarantee you that if we stood outside that church
11:51: Sunday morning with a little clipboard and had all the people coming out take a little survey and we put
12:01: Calvinistic Baptist as one of the choices for the description of that church, if there were a thousand people there, if two of them chose that,
12:11: I would be somewhat surprised. I really would. Now things have changed a little bit over the past couple of years.
12:16: There used to be more reformed folks there than there are now. But I've never, I've been there a few times,
12:22: I never heard the term remnant used. Someone else just mentioned who was a member there for a while, they never heard the term remnant used.
12:28: I've never heard any of the elders use that term. I have no idea really where Marcus Grodi was trying to go with that particular comment either.
12:36: But be that as it may, we all found that to be just a really strange way of describing that particular church.
12:44: We're not really sure exactly what that was all about. Well anyways, moving on, it was interesting, Mr. Grodi seemingly wanted to emphasize some of the key arguments that Roman Catholic apologists use, especially against Sola Scriptura.
13:04: And so in this section he talks about the disagreements that exist amongst Protestants.
13:09: At the time, did it bother you at all that the Lutheran church in the corner believed differently or the Presbyterian or even another
13:15: Baptist, did that ever cross your mind? Well like I said, I kind of was just very thankful that I was one of the chosen few who understood better than they did.
13:26: And I even questioned their salvation. Again not really sure where that one is going either.
13:32: I titled that one Lutherans and Baptists, oh my. Of course, the first thing that crosses my mind when
13:40: I hear Marcus Grodi saying that is I want to say, well does it ever bother you that there are
13:47: Dominicans and Augustinians and Franciscans and you have all these discoused Carmelites and you have all these other viewpoints out there within the
13:56: Roman Catholic church that has disagreements on this, that or the other thing? And does that somehow mean something?
14:02: And of course that's why they don't have me on the program very often, I'm sure. Because that really wouldn't accomplish what they were looking for.
14:09: Anyways, now this next one, this next one, when I first heard this and we had to go back and we had to listen to it and unfortunately he didn't say what we thought he said.
14:21: But actually, listen to the description of me.
14:28: I feel like saying, I feel like changing my name to, hello I'm Mr. Sibling. I no longer have a name,
14:34: I'm just Mr. Sibling. But this description of me by Marcus Grodi, see if you can figure out what he's saying.
14:49: Now let me play that one again because the story goes by pretty quick, it's only a seven second clip. But what word is describing
14:57: Sibling here? Now what's that word again?
15:07: Ah, there we go, vehement. We thought he said behemoth. I sort of thought that was sort of cool, you know,
15:15: I sort of thought, oh wow, yeah, vehement, a vehement sibling. I had never heard of a vehement sibling before.
15:23: But I guess what he's trying to paint the picture is of this just raw type of person out there that's just constantly doing nothing but, you know, chasing nuns around, you know, behind the church or something and raw, just wants to convert everybody.
15:38: So, vehement sibling, which again, for simple honesty, you would think that it would be brought out a vehement sibling that you never bothered to talk to about this and in fact wrote you a lengthy email in response to an anonymous email you sent to him and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
15:57: But that, of course, didn't come out. But what was emphasized, unfortunately, and I did,
16:04: I was concerned about this because this is important. This is important to the use that Catholic apologists want to make of this whole thing is they have to come up some way, with some way, of maintaining the idea of a connection here so that the idea is my sister had knew all of my books and had attended my debates and was a supporter of the ministry and all the rest of this stuff, but then she saw the truth of the
16:35: Catholic faith, yadda, yadda, yadda, yadda, yadda, yadda. That's not what happened and my sister to this day does not have response, as we'll see in the last clip, to the most fundamental objections to the
16:48: Roman Catholic position and was unaware of much of our work before him.
16:53: But notice how, in the questioning, and it did seem to me and to others as well that Grodi wanted her to go there and she didn't want to go there.
17:04: He wanted, he kept bringing the issue up, she'd move someplace else. If she had wanted to say much more about me, she could have, but it seemed he wanted her to say more.
17:14: Listen to the way this question is phrased here. So, okay, given all that background, your anti -Catholic background, not just your past, but the constant influence of your sibling, whatever opened your heart to the
17:27: Catholic Church? Now, did you catch that? Your constant, let me play it again. The constant influence of your sibling.
17:35: The constant influence of your sibling. Well, constant influence, what does that mean?
17:43: Does that mean that there was a connection to where there was, she'd discover some brilliant insight from Scott Hahn and would say, well, what do you think about this?
17:55: And I'd go, duh, I don't know. And that's why she converted? No, that's not what happened.
18:01: Instead, you have no contact going on whatsoever. So I don't know what...
18:07: The constant influence of your sibling. I don't know what that means. There wasn't any constant influence of Mr.
18:16: Sibling. I feel sorry if anybody has that name. Hi, Mr. Sibling. That seemingly is what
18:23: I am anyways. But there was no constant influence of a sibling there.
18:31: I would have obviously, had she contacted me and said, you know, I'm starting to look at this stuff,
18:36: I would have been more than happy to talk to her about it. But she did not.
18:42: Well, what did she do? Well, instead, she went off and she found another source of information.
18:50: And what had happened was a few years earlier, and I had heard about this too, a particular individual who does some sort of what should supposed to be missionary work in France had spoken at Northwest Community Church, which is the name of the church she was going to.
19:06: And this individual had made some comments about Roman Catholicism even at the time that had gotten back to me and I hadn't really thought much about it and my sister didn't think much about it either.
19:19: But she dug up his email and began corresponding with him and here is what she says about that.
19:25: I'm really not giving it a lasting thought because it just wasn't relevant to my life at the time. But I knew that there was one person who had investigated the church to some degree.
19:36: So I knew I couldn't go to my pastor because I kind of knew what I would get, you know, run, repent, stay away from all that.
19:42: I knew I couldn't go to my family because I already knew where they stood. I didn't have to ask, I already knew. Well, that isn't the case.
19:50: Notice she says she didn't go to the pastors or church even though we have been told that so she was confronted on these things.
19:59: Probably not that particular point in time but a little bit later. And she did not go to her family. She did not go to her father.
20:06: She did not come to me other than that as I said that actually this is even in the period of time before the anonymous email that she sent to me.
20:15: Instead she contacted a man, I will go ahead and tell you who it is, by the name of David Bjork and Mr. Bjork is a missionary,
20:22: I guess that would be a missionary missionary because he is, I don't know, with the missionary denomination in France and that is where she was getting this kind of information which
20:36: I will go to the next clip here. She describes in the following words.
20:41: In retrospect I look back at everything he told me in the several months that I pretty much picked his brain and he never once told me anything that wasn't totally accurate about the church.
20:52: So even though he is not Catholic himself he was objective and it just gave me this is what I understand the
20:58: Catholic church to believe. And he cut church documents, cut and pasted church documents and early church fathers.
21:05: What it did to me really was show me that my previous beliefs about the church were based on falsehood.
21:13: I didn't really understand the Catholic church. Well that increased my desire to understand.
21:18: I just had to know what was really believed. Now there's a number of things that go on there.
21:27: There is and there will be a repetition of this in just a moment.
21:34: And someone just asked is that the missionary alliance. No it is not. It is a different denomination.
21:39: But the assertion is going to be made that my books and my materials misrepresent the
21:53: Roman Catholic church. And see he provided to me she says these church documents and so on and so forth.
22:04: Well so does the Roman Catholic controversy. But evidently if it was being provided by David Bjork that's one thing but if it's being provided by her brother that's another thing even if it's the same document.
22:16: And as the email that Mrs. Bond sent to me indicated when she tried to read my books she said a dark cloud of depression came over her.
22:28: Well no matter what else you say that clearly indicates that what I have written was not looked at fairly.
22:34: I have seen no evidence whatsoever that anything on the website on Roman Catholicism including the documentation of numerous errors on the part of Roman Catholic apologists including those that she has chosen to be her favorites has ever been even seen let alone looked at though she certainly would know it's there.
22:57: And remember she has informed me that she has never been able to listen to a single debate because as soon as they start
23:05: I am so mean and so unloving and so nasty that I intimidate my opponents and so she won't listen to those debates now all of that clearly indicates that there's significantly more going on here than just a analytical examination of facts that are available so on and so forth.
23:31: So this individual then David Bjork provides this information again only coming from one particular perspective and none of this is brought to anyone who could provide any type of response in fact
23:47: I guess one thing that's nice is that if this is the final form of the testimony and it's not going to you know move from there then it's very clear that from the beginning she never took the claims of Rome to anyone who could provide an answer because she just simply assumed that she knew however that it does not follow that she did know what the the answers what the answers truly were to those issues.
24:20: Now this next section is most interesting. This next quotation by a minute and a half and this is where I can start understanding what's going on because here she discusses what happened in July of two thousand and that if you've read the document on our website is when
24:38: I received the anonymous e -mail that I did respond to in regards to the attraction of the
24:46: Roman Catholic Church so on and so forth and listen carefully at the beginning concerning this particular just listen carefully was said probably about let's see look in here about fifteen seconds in the part of me was excited and part of me was
25:06: I was worried and I knew that the toughest thing I could put myself through was to read my brother's works and in fact
25:15: I've heard from many a convert since I came home who said that was their last gauntlet as well is we knew that the toughest thing to get through if we could get through your brother's books and know that God wanted us to be
25:26: Catholic there was no doubt in our mind and I've had many letters like that. I didn't know that at the time but that was the gauntlet
25:33: I threw down for myself as well so I spent early July waiting through a couple more of his books and I'd already read the book on Mary earlier and it was a tough time because the things he was saying no longer rang true
25:51: I knew too much about the faith I knew what I was watching was someone do a very good job of destroying a church that didn't exist.
26:01: Explain that that's interesting the way you said that he was doing a good job of destroying a church that didn't exist.
26:07: Well his arguments against the church are based on misunderstanding of what the
26:13: Catholic church actually teaches and believes but he does a superb job of defeating the arguments he perceives to be what the church is and so they are troublesome to a lot of people and if Catholics don't understand what they believe or an outsider doesn't understand what the
26:31: Catholic church really teaches it sounds very effective. Well that was sort of the meat of the program
26:40: I would say. At least we got into some really important things.
26:47: Now Mrs. Bonds neglects to note in this entire program that she wrote the anonymous email that appears on our website
26:53: I think that would be important. It would not have helped to say that she was not in contact with me during this time nor that she has always refused to listen to a single debate where the two sides can be heard side by side because such would speak rather loudly.
27:06: Next in the emails Mrs. Bonds has sent me she has accused me of many things mainly of being arrogant egotistical and unloving especially when
27:13: I would bring up any Roman Catholic teachings at all but what she hasn't done is attempt to make a case that my arguments are straw men.
27:21: I mean how could she straw men get ripped up in debates. Indeed the constant refrain of the better Roman Catholic apologists is that what sets
27:29: Southern Omega Ministries apart from the jack chicks of our world aside from our reformed theology is the accuracy of our representations of the
27:37: Roman Church's teachings. Now it is a constant accusation that we misrepresent those we deal with and just as constant is the failure of such people to document from the huge amount of material available such misrepresentations.
27:51: The careful listener will note that this program never gives a single example of a misrepresentation on my part.
27:58: Mrs. Bonds said she had read the book on Mary but she has never offered a single word of rebuttal or criticism of it and the person who reads the anonymous email she wrote at this time will note that her response to reading one of my books she did not say which one it was at the time was not you are misrepresenting the church but quote
28:20: I was overcome with a cloud of depression end quote. That is an emotional response not a critical response.
28:28: She later said that this time caused her great distress. Yeah reading the truth and not having an answer while continuing toward Rome does tend to cause distress.
28:40: Next I truly rejoice in her statement that she has had many many letters about people finding my books to be the last hurdle.
28:49: I am sorry they did not have ears to hear the truth but I am greatly blessed to know that many others have indeed for many others that hurdle was a
28:57: God -given obstacle to their emotionally driven run in the arms of Rome ironically some of the nastiest emails this week completely contradicted the premise of this show which repeatedly emphasized how they anyway viewed the work of Alpha Omega Ministries as well known widespread and challenging the nasty grams the past week including the words of Mark Shea a
29:18: Roman Catholic apologist attempted to say just the opposite. I do wish they didn't make a match to get their story straight amongst all of them.
29:27: Ironically Marcus Grodi then went on to say that Luther completely misunderstood Rome and raised the issue of salvation by works saying that Luther was responding to the idea that Rome taught that you're saved solely by works.
29:41: What's ironic about that is anyone who has read my works or listen to my debates knows that I have never misrepresented
29:48: Rome on this point and have always attacked its synergism. I always point out that Trent condemned anyone who would say that you can that you can be saved by works alone.
30:03: Trent anathematized that the problem with Rome is its synergism its attempt to join
30:09: God's grace and the human will. I am a monergist and I of course have been very consistent on that and if if in point of fact there had been any reading and understanding of my position by Mrs.
30:29: Bonds that would not have been an issue 8 6 6 8 5 4 67 63
30:34: I see that Apollonio Latar just left the channel. I have to scroll back up to see what nasty things he said but allegedly he can't listen today his real audio is messed up but said something about a response.
30:47: Let's take a look at that. He said last week he was going to call in but that happens very frequently.
30:53: We're still waiting for Phil Provosnick to call in having had a week now to respond to what we said last week.
31:00: Maybe some of you would like to call in 8 6 6 8 5 4 67 63 we'll be right back. The history of the
31:25: Christian church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith. Once the core of the Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine.
31:35: In his book The God Who Justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme.
31:49: Justification is the heart of the gospel. In today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith.
32:00: Dr. Jay Adams says I lost sleep over this book. I simply couldn't put it down. James White writes the way an exegetically and theologically oriented pastor appreciates.
32:10: This is no book for casual reading. There is solid meat throughout an outstanding contribution in every sense of the words.
32:18: The God Who Justifies by Dr. James White. Get your copy today at AOMN .org.
32:24: More than any time in the past Roman Catholics and evangelicals are working together. They are standing shoulder to shoulder against social evils.
32:32: They are joining across denominational boundaries in renewal movements. And many evangelicals are finding the history, tradition and grandeur of the
32:40: Roman Catholic Church appealing. This newfound rapport has caused many evangelical leaders and lay people to question the age old disagreements that have divided
32:49: Protestants and Catholics. Aren't we all saying the same thing in a different language? James White's book
32:56: The Roman Catholic Controversy is an absorbing look at current views of tradition in scripture. The papacy, the mass, purgatory and indulgences and Marian doctrine.
33:06: James White points out the crucial differences that remain regarding the Christian life and the heart of the gospel itself that cannot be ignored.
33:14: Order your copy of The Roman Catholic Controversy by going to our website at AOMN .org.
33:20: This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God.
33:31: The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church. The elders and people of the
33:38: Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day. The morning
33:43: Bible study begins at 9 .30 AM and the worship service is at 10 .45. Evening services are at 6 .30
33:50: PM on Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805
33:58: North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 -26 -GRACE.
34:05: If you're unable to attend, you can still participate with your computer and real audio at PRBC .org
34:11: where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.
35:00: We're locking them in today. Indeed, we are responding to Monday evening's airing of The Journey Home and Mrs.
35:09: Bond's comments concerning the reasons for her conversion to Roman Catholicism.
35:16: By the way, two new debates scheduled just in the past week that a number of you might want to know about.
35:23: First on April 2nd, now these are subject to change, but they're looking pretty solid right now.
35:29: April 2nd, I believe, I can't give you the location, I believe it's on the campus of Biola in California.
35:42: Right now the schedule is that I will be debating George Bryson of Calvary Chapel on the subject of basically
35:53: Calvinism. Some of you have seen the two -part debate that he and I did in the
35:58: CRI Journal. We're going to do a debate on hopefully a focused element.
36:04: You can't not possibly do all of Calvinism in one night. And I think they want to keep these debates pretty focused and pretty sharp.
36:11: So that's going to be a challenge. But anyways, April 2nd is a Tuesday night in L .A.,
36:19: I believe, with George Bryson. And then three days later, April 5th,
36:24: I believe, is the date for the debate in Salt Lake City with LDS attorney and apologist
36:32: Martin Tanner. And that will probably be on the Doctrine of God. So that's going to be a busy week.
36:37: So you all might want to be praying for us for that week. If you're in the California area, we'll try to get more information up on the calendar page, on the website concerning details and locations and times and all the rest of that stuff for both of those two debates.
36:55: And then in July, in one week's span, we'll be doing three debates, three major debates as well.
37:05: So some important stuff coming up. Keep that in mind. The work of the ministry continues on.
37:12: Now this next section is a little bit of a, probably one of the sadder sections.
37:22: And that is anyone who has read the Roman Catholic controversy knows that one of the, well the thesis really of the book,
37:31: I mean I do spend a lot of time on soul scripture in that book, but the thesis of the book is that Rome's gospel cannot give you peace.
37:40: Rome's gospel, because it is man -centered, because it is focused upon what man does, because God's grace is unable to truly provide the real grounds that the gospel requires in Roman Catholicism.
38:03: Because of that, the one thing you cannot have is peace. And that was one of the first things that I said to Mrs.
38:11: Bonds when I contacted her by email, is someday when you want to know peace, you will not be able to find it in the system that you are now embracing.
38:26: And hence I found it ironic to listen to this section. That was a real blessing because through the first, well the last few months before that phone call,
38:36: I had two requests of God. I said, I know this is of you.
38:42: I know you're doing this in my life. I don't know where you're headed with this, but I know this is you that I'm dealing with.
38:48: I'm asking for two things during this journey. One is peace. Asking for one thing, actually two things.
38:55: Peace, the other one was joy. But asking for peace. And it just is utterly ironic to go from having once professed the completed work of Christ to now professing the incompleted work of Christ.
39:11: The repetitive sacrifice of the mass that cannot save, it cannot perfect, etc., etc.,
39:18: etc. It's just truly an amazing thing that someone would exchange that.
39:26: That would seem to indicate that there was never truly an understanding of the grounds in the first place that allowed for true peace with God in the true gospel.
39:37: But it is interesting. Now here, this next section is how her choice came to be known to us.
39:47: We sort of found out. I mentioned on the website, I found out. My wife called me on my cell phone while I was in Clearwater, Florida, actually.
40:00: And the events that she describes in this clip had taken place that day back here in Phoenix.
40:06: They kind of found out by accident. I used to keep my crucifix in my shirt and it was discovered one day. So I kind of off the cuff had to explain what was going on.
40:14: And it was very difficult and very painful. And I felt very, it's very hard to explain because having been on where they are and believed what they believe,
40:23: I understand the grief of their heart and I hurt for them. And at the same time,
40:30: I wish so much that I could give them a glimpse of what it's like over here so that they would know they have nothing to fear, but they can't see that at this point.
40:40: Well, can't see that or are unwilling to grant the primary thing that Mrs.
40:46: Bonds has constantly insisted upon. And that is we have to grant the validity of the
40:54: Roman Catholic position to start. And once we grant that, well, you know, there's all sorts of different views and this is a valid point of view.
41:02: Once we grant that, then we can talk. Well, if you're truly a biblical Christian, a biblical believer, you don't grant that kind of alleged neutrality.
41:13: And you don't forget the history of Rome. You don't forget the inquisitions. You don't forget the mass.
41:18: You don't forget the different gospel. You don't forget the denial of solo scriptura, the teaching of the papacy and purgatory and indulgences.
41:26: You don't forget all of that kind of stuff. You don't put that off to one side and say, well, we're not going to worry about that.
41:32: That just simply isn't something that can be done. And so it's not that they quote unquote are not ready.
41:39: It's that Mrs. Bonds lays down an impossible compromise to make to allow the conversation to even start.
41:47: My email files are filled with the emails that I have sent. I have kept every single one of them.
41:54: The emails that I have sent raising issues about the cross, about purgatory, about the mass, about anything that she's raised,
42:02: I have responded to. And as we're going to see here in a moment, we'll see what kind of responses that those types of discussions have actually gotten.
42:11: Only two more to listen to. That means you can get online at 866 -854 -6763.
42:17: We have one person online and we can take your phone calls as well at 866 -854 -6763.
42:23: This next section is rather interesting because it in essence demonstrates.
42:35: I've got to stop reading the channel when a certain person by the name of Java is typing anything because it's really hard to stay focused when things like that go on by.
42:44: But anyways, this next section I think really demonstrates from Mrs.
42:52: Bonds' own words the fact that she has really never been a part in any way, shape, or form of Alpha Omega Ministries.
43:01: And when you hear the end of her comments, you will see exactly what it is
43:07: I'm referring to. I believe truly that the anger that you sense in any anti -Catholic attack or information has its basis in an underlying knowledge, more than likely a subconscious knowledge, that they're in rebellion from God's one true church.
43:25: I just find that, especially in ex -Catholics who come after the church, there's just this anger.
43:31: A lot of my Catholic friends ask me, why are they so angry? What are they so angry about?
43:37: And I said, I think it's the need to justify the fact that they're not home. So there's this stiff -necked rebellion going on that says,
43:46: I'm not going there and I will not submit to that Pope. So you feel that in what they have to say, that spirit of rebellion.
43:57: Where most Catholics, when they relate to someone of a different opinion, usually do it with a bit more tolerance of various opinions.
44:06: I've never had an encounter with a Catholic that was remotely angry like that.
44:15: I've never had an encounter with a Catholic that was remotely angry like that. Well, y 'all might want to talk to Rich Pierce about what he's been seeing in the email over the past week and a half.
44:30: And I'm going to be putting an article up on the website, just giving you the words of Mark Shea, the words of Art Sippo.
44:40: You can read the website article that's up there right now with the words of Steve Ray. Dripping with pure hatred and anger and ad hominem personal attacks upon me as an individual.
44:56: These have nothing to do with the issues at hand. They are completely focused upon me as an individual and how mean and nasty
45:04: I am. But you see, she is right. She was never here to see that stuff.
45:11: We never had a discussion concerning the way that I'm treated by Roman Catholics on a regular basis.
45:18: So she didn't know. But I don't know if that's what they wanted to communicate, was that she didn't know.
45:26: I think that just sort of snuck out. And probably in hindsight, they would rather that that hadn't.
45:33: Because that proves in light of what we can document concerning the behavior of many
45:38: Roman Catholics. And I'm not talking about Tony who writes us an email and says,
45:44: Hey, I don't like what you're doing, I'm going to beat you up. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the individual who is a published apologist.
45:53: People like Mark Shea. People like Steve Ray. Who are on EWTN. And they're published with Ignatius.
46:02: And they're published in the various magazines and so on and so forth. And they go off. I mean, just the acid in the face routine.
46:13: Just nasty as can be. And so it truly is amazing.
46:18: As to rebellion against the true church, that's a fascinating assertion.
46:26: Of course, as we're about to demonstrate, every time I have attempted to point out that Rome's claims to be the true church.
46:37: Those particular claims have collapsed. And I've tried to point those out to Mrs. Bonds.
46:43: But she won't listen to any of those debates. Because I am so mean and nasty that she can't listen to them.
46:49: And I'll let people judge themselves what that means. This last clip is most interesting.
46:57: And I'm going to read an e -mail. That it was epistemologically silly.
47:18: And one of the quotes. I think the only quote that I had a chance to actually. Well, actually more than one. But the one quote
47:24: I spent the most time on. Was a quote that's constantly repeated by Roman Catholic apologists in various contexts.
47:33: And it is a citation from Ignatius of Antioch from around 107.
47:41: The year, A .D. 107. And it is utilized to assert that Ignatius believed in the doctrine of transubstantiation and the mass.
47:55: And so on and so forth. Now, I took that quote on last week with Mr. Provoznik.
48:01: And demonstrated that that is a gross misuse. And so on and so forth. And so it was just slightly ironic to then sit down and watch the journey home.
48:11: And listen to this. And just that little crack in the door was enough for me to begin to read the early church.
48:17: And I remember the first time that I read the words of Ignatius of Antioch. About the flesh, the
48:23: Eucharist being the flesh and blood of Christ. I remember pushing my chair back away from the computer and gasping, I've been robbed.
48:29: I've been robbed. Well, isn't it ironic that that's the exact same citation that I had dealt with last week.
48:38: And I said, well, yeah, but she's not going to listen last week. She wasn't even around probably. Or she was getting ready to leave. Well, I started thinking about it.
48:46: And I started going, you know what? I have dealt with that passage with Mrs.
48:52: Bonds. And I dealt with it long before the journey home on Monday night.
48:59: And so I started doing a little digging around. And I was right. I'm going to read an email to you all.
49:06: This is an email sent to my sister. The date, Friday, March 9th, 2001.
49:14: So this was 10 months ago. Friday, March 9th, 2001.
49:21: Pat, if I respond to that email message. Now let me back up a second. I am referring here to an email message she sent me that made reference to Scott Hahn.
49:36: And I had sent it to her I think maybe the day before, something like that. If I responded to that email message fully, would you read it?
49:43: Would you read my discussion of Ignatius' words, Augustine's doctrine of the physical nature of Christ, Hahn said the following in the article you referenced in it.
49:52: And here's a quotation from Scott Hahn. So we have testimony throughout all the first centuries of the church of this effect.
49:58: You are hard pressed, I would say it is practically impossible, to find a single statement by anybody in the first eight centuries of the church where you have a denial of the real presence of Jesus Christ, flesh and blood, body, soul, and divinity there in the
50:10: Eucharist. I remember when I first discovered that, I was still anti -Catholic. But boy, did that bother me.
50:15: Because I wondered, how could John's disciple get it so wrong? How could St. Ignatius say something so patently false and superstitious after spending all this time with the feet of the beloved disciple
50:25: St. John? Now I'm convinced that he didn't get it wrong. Now I'm convinced that Vatican II got it right when it said, in the sacrament of the
50:31: Eucharist, the unity of believers who formed one body in Christ is both experienced and brought about. We are in a sense what we eat.
50:38: We're only in the supernatural body of Christ because in the Eucharist we receive the supernatural body of Christ.
50:44: That's the end of the quote from Han. Are you in a position to find out he's in error?
50:50: This is my continuing... I'm sorry, just reading something in the channel.
50:58: This is me continuing now after the quote of Han. Speaking to my sister, I say, Are you in a position to find out he's in error?
51:04: Or would I be wasting my time? For example, check out the text of a recent email on this very subject.
51:09: And then I insert the text, and the first three paragraphs are a quote from a Roman Catholic.
51:15: And I'll tell you when it switches over to my response. The question was about the words of an early 1st century witness to the apostolic faith,
51:22: Ignatius. Look at my first post. It was and is a very simple question. Ignatius, writing in about 110, said of certain heretics,
51:30: They confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the
51:35: Father of His goodness raised up again. Clearly, he did confess what the heretics did not.
51:41: The question is, can you wholeheartedly confess what Ignatius confessed, and certain of his contemporaries did, did not, specifically, that the
51:48: Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father of His goodness raised up again.
51:53: Okay, that's the end of the Roman Catholic. Here's then the response to that person that I included in the email.
52:01: If I could comment, please, the passage you cited reads as follows. Let no man deceive himself, both the things which are in heaven and the glorious angels and rulers, both visible and invisible, if they believe not in the blood of Christ, shall in consequence incur condemnation.
52:15: He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. Let not high place puff anyone up, for that which is worth all is a faith and love, to which nothing is to be preferred.
52:25: But consider those who are of different opinion with respect to the grace of Christ, which has come unto us, how opposed they are to the will of God.
52:32: They have no regard for love, no care for the widow or the orphan or the oppressed, of the bond or of the free, of the hungry or of the thirsty.
52:40: They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the
52:47: Father of His goodness raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes.
52:54: But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that ye should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them, either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all to the gospel, of which the passion of Christ has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved.
53:13: But avoid all divisions as the beginning of evils."
53:18: Then I continued my commentary after quoting the full context of Ignatius, and I said,
53:23: It seems to me the context is proto -Gnostic heretics, especially the ascetics. Ignatius was obviously influenced deeply by John, and John's concern over the reality of the physical incarnation is well known.
53:36: So I'd suggest that the original context of the passage is speaking to the reality of the incarnation, so that the reason the heretics refuse to partake of the supper is not due to some rejection of transubstantiation, or any other such concept that developed long after this.
53:50: Instead, they will not partake because they deny Christ had a body to be represented by the bread and the wine.
53:57: Participation in the supper includes an affirmation of the reality of the incarnation, hence their unwillingness to do so.
54:06: I wonder, though, if you are familiar with this quotation from Ignatius as well, that I quoted from Trolleans 8, which says,
54:21: And I finished my email that I'm quoting to my sister by saying, Is there a way to consistently interpret
54:28: Ignatius in both passages that does not require an unnatural insertion of a later development into his thinking?
54:34: I think so. Then going back to what I, that's the end of the quotation, now going back to what I said to my sister.
54:42: You don't often see the folks at the CHN, that's Coming Home Network, quoting Ignatius in Trolleans 8, do you?
54:49: Nor do you often read these words of Augustine either, than I quote Augustine, his
54:55: Tractates on John, number 50, 92, 102, and 118, in these words, But he forsook not the world in the ruling activity of his presence.
55:26: The Lord Jesus, in the discourse which he addressed to his disciples after the supper, went himself in immediate proximity to his passion, and, as it were, on the eve of depriving them of his bodily presence, while continuing his spiritual presence to all his disciples till the very end of the world.
55:43: And I also gave another quote from Tractate 25, 12, which says, Do not get your mouth ready, but your heart.
55:56: On this occasion it was that the parable of the supper was set forth. Lo, we believe in Christ, we receive him with faith.
56:02: In receiving him we know what to think of. We receive but little, and are nourished in the heart.
56:08: It is not then what is seen, but what is believed that feeds us. Therefore we too have not sought for that outward sense.
56:17: This is then to eat the meat, not that which perishes, but that which endures unto eternal life.
56:25: To what purpose do you make ready teeth and stomach? Believe, and you have eaten already.
56:32: To which I then continued, since historians like Philip Schaff recognize that Augustine's view of the physical body of Christ and resulting spiritual nature of the
56:40: Eucharist had to be overcome for transubstantiation to become dogma 700 years after Augustine's death,
56:46: Han's assertion has proven to be, how shall we put it, a tad bit inflated? Indeed.
56:52: You quoted Cyril of Jerusalem in your note back in July of last year. I think you took it from Han's lecture.
56:58: Be that as it may, I have a favorite Cyril quote too, and then I finished with this quotation. In regard to the divine and holy mysteries of the faith, not the least part may be handed on without the holy scriptures.
57:08: Do not be led astray by winning words and clever arguments. Even to me who tell you these things, do not give ready belief unless you receive from the holy scriptures the proof of the things which
57:18: I announce. The salvation which we believe is not proved from clever reasoning, but from the holy scriptures.
57:26: That, of course, is Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures 417. And then
57:31: I had my citation. Just got a call from a guy upset because N .A.
57:40: complains about Scott Han. I wanted to debate him, yet N .A. won't debate Thinker? Are you serious?
57:49: Oh, okay, well, that's fascinating. There's an interesting comment.
57:55: Well, anyways, now the point, of course, of this, that we're going to take a break and start taking our phone calls, so get in line.
58:01: We've already got at least one in line. And it certainly would have been interesting to have that guy on the line because we'd love to discuss
58:08: Thinker. The lady, I think it's lady anyways, who is on IRC, that's just fascinating, truly is.
58:16: Anyways, the point, of course, of citing the email is that I never heard back on those citations.
58:25: Just one thing. I did hear back this. My sister informed me that she would send my citations from Augustine to Timothy Staples.
58:39: Yes, Timothy Staples, graduate of the Jimmy Swagger Bible College, who lost the debate at Fullerton on papal infallibility in probably the more glowing colors than anyone else
58:50: I'd ever debated. But that's going to be the source for her response to the
58:56: Augustine citations. So it's obvious that when, on the program, she pushes her seat back from, notice it was the computer, not from a book.
59:07: Notice that it was merely, this was undoubtedly a snippet. It wasn't in its context.
59:13: There wouldn't be any background. There wouldn't be any of those things that I offered. When she did that, did she ask me?
59:19: No. She says she knows what I would say. No, she didn't. Because when I then told her what I would have said, she has no response.
59:29: That's a sad thing. But you see, what it also tells me is that if and when, and it's not if, when
59:40: Rome's sacraments, when Rome's ceremonies become empty, when the newness wears off, then she knows in her own heart that she didn't listen.
59:57: She never asked. And she will know in her own heart that there is one group of people that showed real
01:00:06: Christian love by never compromising the only gospel that can give her peace.
01:00:13: She'll know who she can talk to. And she'll know that there's lots of things we have to say that, that in reality, in reality she's never heard.
01:00:25: And we'll be ready to share. So that is a good thing. We're going to take our phone calls right after this break.
01:00:31: 866 -854 -6763 is the phone number. And the
01:00:36: Java Man is up first when we come back after this break. What is
01:00:53: Dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book Chosen But Free? A new cult? Secularism?
01:00:59: False prophecy scenarios? No, Dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called
01:01:05: Calvinism. He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent, philosophically insufficient, and morally repugnant.
01:01:13: In his book, The Potters' Freedom, James White replies to Dr. Geisler, But The Potters' Freedom is much more than just a reply.
01:01:19: It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded. Indeed, it is a defense of the very gospel itself.
01:01:27: In a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate, James White masterfully counters the evidence against so -called extreme
01:01:34: Calvinism, defines what the Reformed faith actually is, and concludes that the gospel preached by the Reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture.
01:01:42: The Potters' Freedom, a defense of the Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's Chosen But Free. You'll find it in the
01:01:48: Reformed Theology section of our bookstore at aomen .org. The Trinity is a basic teaching of the
01:01:54: Christian faith. It defines God's essence and describes how He relates to us. James White's book,
01:01:59: The Forgotten Trinity, is a concise, understandable explanation of what the Trinity is and why it matters. It refutes cultic distortions of God, as well as showing how a grasp of this significant teaching leads to renewed worship and deeper understanding of what it means to be a
01:02:12: Christian. And amid today's emphasis on the renewing work of the Holy Spirit, The Forgotten Trinity is a balanced look at all three persons of the
01:02:19: Trinity. Dr. John MacArthur, Senior Pastor of Grace Community Church, says, James White's lucid presentation will help layperson and pastor alike.
01:02:28: Highly recommended. You can order The Forgotten Trinity by going to our website at aomen .org.
01:02:34: Incorporating the most recent research and solid biblical truth, Letters to a Mormon Elder by James White is a series of personal letters written to a fictional
01:02:42: Mormon missionary. Examining the teaching and theology of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints, the book brings a relational approach to material usually presented in textbook style.
01:02:53: James White draws from his extensive apologetics ministry to thousands of Mormons in presenting the truth of Christianity.
01:03:00: With well -defined arguments, James White provides readers with insight and understanding into the Book of Mormon, the prophecies, visions, and teachings of Joseph Smith, the theological implications of the doctrines of Mormonism, and other major historical issues relevant to the claims of the
01:03:15: LDS Church. This marvelous study is a valuable text for Christians who talk with Mormons and is an ideal book to be read by Mormons.
01:03:24: Letters to a Mormon Elder. Get your copy today in the Mormonism section of our bookstore at aomen .org.
01:03:37: And welcome back to Dividing Line. My name is James White, and we have just given a response to the
01:03:42: Journey Home program from Monday evening, and now we're taking your phone calls.
01:03:48: By the way, just another announcement. I have sitting next to me the galleys to the same -sex controversy.
01:03:55: My next book, co -authored with Jeff Neal for Bethany House Publishers, 250 pages,
01:04:01: Biblical refutation of the homosexual position, the revisionist position that says the
01:04:07: Bible does not condemn homosexuality. And we're finishing up the edits.
01:04:14: The galleys is the last thing you see before it goes to press, so it's on the fast track, and we should be able to announce to you hopefully in a matter of weeks when that is going to be available and make it available on the website for pre -publication orders so you can get your copy.
01:04:29: And that will be coming out real quick. 866 -854 -6763. Let us begin with our first caller, the
01:04:38: Java Man. How you doing, Java? I'm doing pretty good for an old man. I just wanted to let you know when
01:04:44: Rich asked me what I was going to ask, it was very reminiscent of your first comments to me.
01:04:49: How did you get this phone number? I had to get a handkerchief to wipe the flowing tears from your eyes.
01:04:59: Now, you know, someone such as yourself who can do things, who can do such tremendous things like, you know, well, sing.
01:05:12: Why can't I hear this? Why is my computer down? My computer's down! There it is. Oh, yeah. I'm the great reformer.
01:05:20: Ah, yeah. Reforming the churches that I'm known for.
01:05:25: Hey, does that sound familiar? You got to be careful, man.
01:05:31: I do know how to move files from CDs to computers, so I've got all this stuff available.
01:05:36: Anyways, that's not why you were calling in, though. No. I have a question about Swedenborgianism. Now, actually,
01:05:44: I wanted to say that we've been doing these debates out here for seven years, and although my memory is not quite as good as it used to be, being an old man,
01:05:54: I cannot recall ever hearing a Catholic opponent of yours claim that you were misrepresenting the
01:06:01: Catholic Church. The only thing that they've ever challenged you on was your dating of when certain doctrines came into existence.
01:06:09: But I may be wrong, but I just don't recall ever a Catholic opponent saying to you,
01:06:16: Dr. White, we do not believe that in the Catholic Church. So that immediately came to my mind when
01:06:22: I heard your sister say that you were quite expert at destroying a church that doesn't exist.
01:06:29: Well, this church doesn't exist. I've heard many Roman Catholics in public defend the things that you affirm they believe.
01:06:37: Right. Right. Well, and of course, that has been one of the things that in the few articles that have appeared, where actually my name appeared as well, one of the things they've said is, well, you know, this type of material is different than most of the stuff we deal with because it's more scholarly, or it's better representation, so on and so forth.
01:06:57: You would think, given the number of books and debates we've done, that if it was my general modus operandi to constantly misrepresent the people that I was disagreeing with, that there would be just reams of documentation.
01:07:11: But there isn't. And in fact, when individuals do try to take on, for example, the Roman Catholic controversy as Stephen O 'Reilly has tried to do in the pages of This Rock magazine,
01:07:20: I've been able to refute each one of his assertions. And he wasn't saying I was misrepresenting. He was saying that I misunderstood church history, or I wasn't taking into account this element of church history, or whatever else it might be.
01:07:31: But the idea that it's all strawman argumentation, my sister had never even said that to me until this particular situation.
01:07:41: Well, my prayers are with you and your sister. And the Lord saved me.
01:07:46: He can save your sister and bring her to her senses. That's most definitely the case. And I think
01:07:52: I mentioned to you the fact that it's been extremely encouraging seeing the emails that have been coming in from all sorts of folks who have read that article and have just been tremendously encouraged to witness to their families.
01:08:06: Many people who are the only people who have been saved out of Catholicism in their families have written, and they've been encouraged by it.
01:08:14: I got a very touching one from a gentleman in Florida who talked about how he's had an attraction to the liturgy and things like that, and how the response really helped him in that way.
01:08:28: And he's a good friend of mine. Those gentlemen will have no idea how encouraging those things were.
01:08:37: When I put that web article up, I wasn't thinking along those lines. Maybe that's definitely wrong on my part.
01:08:44: I wasn't thinking about how there would be lots of folks who would be encouraged to witness to their families because of this.
01:08:51: I was just trying to testify to the truth of how this situation has been handled.
01:08:57: And lo and behold, the Lord turns these things to his glory anyway. So, as I've heard you say, if the Lord can save you, he can save anybody, right?
01:09:03: That's right. One last thing I wanted to say, there's one Catholic I can think of that I would love your sister to actually sit down with, and that's the
01:09:12: Catholic seminary student that has come to several of the debates, who had a completely different description of you than your sister had.
01:09:20: Yep. In fact, I sent his email to my sister, where he says in his email, he says, well, how would you characterize it?
01:09:34: He basically is just gushing about the accuracy of my presentation, and you've made me think about all sorts of things, so on and so forth.
01:09:43: And your Christ -like behavior. Right, exactly. And then you may recall, what was the name of the gentleman who at the beginning of the debate,
01:09:51: Americans United for the Pope? Arnold Pilsner. Arnold Pilsner, at the beginning, likewise, had some kind words.
01:09:58: And I even offered, I said, Pat, I'll send you the tape.
01:10:07: I'll send you the tape. I'll let you watch this. Tell me how this does not testify to the truthfulness of what
01:10:15: I've said. But she has no interest in receiving that information or looking at that information. It's not going to go away, and I believe that there will be a time, there will be an opportunity in the future to do that.
01:10:30: Patience is a good thing when you're as old as you and I. Starting to get way up there. At least you and I are only about half as old as Sky Man.
01:10:43: One thing that's very interesting about that Journey Home program is that the testimonies are almost identical, because I don't think that they want to talk about doctrinal issues.
01:10:53: They want this mushy -gushy sentimentalism, because I think they know that that's why people convert to Catholicism.
01:11:00: Right. When I was listening to EWTN a lot last July when I was teaching, they have a radio station in San Francisco.
01:11:09: The voices changed, but the words didn't. And it was just the constant.
01:11:15: I think they know that people need a reaffirmation of this, because eventually it gets old.
01:11:24: Eventually the newness of the sacraments and all the pageantry and stuff, after a while you've seen that before.
01:11:34: It gets old. It does not satisfy. And so there needs to be a reaffirmation of, yeah, you did the right thing.
01:11:39: Yeah, you did the right thing. But once the spirit of God starts working on someone's heart, that'll never keep the spirit at bay.
01:11:48: That's for sure. Well, anyways, thank you very much, Mr. Java Man, for calling today. We'll have to start.
01:11:54: I apologize. We haven't been promoting your musical works as much as we need to.
01:12:04: But maybe sometime. Oh, look at that. There's one now.
01:12:09: I don't know how that would all of a sudden just start playing like that. You don't own me.
01:12:17: Don't push me around like your paper tongue. You don't own me.
01:12:24: I'm no longer one of your fear -billies. Okay.
01:12:29: Well, you know, I'm still expecting some professional recordings of some other songs. Yeah. Okay, man.
01:12:38: Thanks for calling. All right. God bless. 866 -854 -6763.
01:12:45: Some of you have not heard those songs. I have played them.
01:12:51: They are in the archives someplace. But right now, I think our archives are sort of hard to get hold of.
01:12:57: Yes, Debetta's in the night. Yes, Java Man came up with a great one a couple weeks ago.
01:13:05: Debetta's in the night, exchanging insults. It's great. But CMRE is starting to sound like him. It's a terrible thing.
01:13:11: Let's see. 866 -854 -6763 is the phone number that David in Austin, Texas, called.
01:13:17: Let's talk with David. Hi, David. Hey, James. How are you doing? You may know me as MDHughes on the channel.
01:13:23: Ah, yes, sir. I didn't want to say it because I didn't want to hear Microsoft jokes. Well, actually, the way that your comments or your question was given to me in private message from the other side of the wall basically seemed to indicate that I thought that you were going to be saying that I sound like Oprah Winfrey.
01:13:45: So I was like, what in the world is that all about? No, I just wanted to point out,
01:13:51: I saw the program myself, and it reminded me, I expected to see
01:13:57: Oprah Winfrey opposite of her. Java made a good comment. It was emotionalism. Nothing was based on anything solid or objectionable.
01:14:09: It was objectionable. But objective, it was all just how she felt about converting to Roman Catholic.
01:14:17: I can definitely see how a lot of people get sucked into that. Well, it's very attractive in a subjective society where religious decisions are based upon, allegedly, how you feel.
01:14:31: Even though, and I didn't play it. I almost made a clip out of it this morning, but I didn't. There was one of the calls asked something about had her feelings waned since her second conversion, so on and so forth.
01:14:46: And she made a fascinating comment. And that was, she said, we can't live our lives by emotions.
01:14:54: Our feelings have to be based upon fact. And I'm sort of sitting here listening to that going, am
01:15:02: I missing something here? Because that's what I've been saying from the very beginning here.
01:15:08: Let's get down to these facts. Let's talk about these things. And that's why I still hold out that great hope that that time will come.
01:15:16: And that's why I've been very upfront about these things. Obviously, we didn't discuss these things until she made the decision to do this program, to get out there, and to start putting her testimony on websites and things like that.
01:15:31: In fact, the folks here at the ministry will tell you. If you want to check this out, you can talk to them.
01:15:37: The folks at the ministry will tell you. In fact, Warren's on the other side of the wall here.
01:15:45: And I forget how long ago it was. It wasn't that long ago, maybe a month, month and a half ago. Rich comes over to the
01:15:52: Monday night workout. You've heard about our Monday night workouts where you get pumped up and we do theology between sets.
01:15:57: And he was getting hit with all these questions about Patty's conversion.
01:16:04: And so Warren and I like to do some competition. He's sitting over there going, oh,
01:16:10: I knew he was going to say this. I knew he was going there. I just couldn't. And sometimes he beats me.
01:16:16: Sometimes I beat him. But the competition, hi, Warren. The competition, uh -oh, he's coming up behind me.
01:16:23: What's that in your hand, Warren? No, I'm sorry. The competition really helps us to push each other. Well, we were doing what are called
01:16:29: T -bars. It's a back exercise, and I've got a T -bar row. And Rich was saying, look,
01:16:34: I really want to put something on the website. I said, look, people, listen to me. We're not putting anything on the website until my sister does something publicly.
01:16:46: And they kept pushing it. I said, look, I'm in charge of this ministry, and I'm putting my foot down.
01:16:51: And I stomped my foot down. And Warren will tell you, because he will never forget this, he was sitting there going, oh, no, they're getting him mad.
01:17:00: And see, we're in a competition. So I got all cranked. We had the maximum amount of weight on the thing. I did like 20 reps or 22 reps or something like that, and Warren did two.
01:17:10: So I was angry, and Rich will tell you. He said, we ain't doing nothing until she goes public.
01:17:18: Well, it wasn't what, three days, four days later? The web article showed up where she was putting her conversion story out there.
01:17:25: And then we discussed, and then we found out about the coming home and so on and so forth. So we didn't want to go this direction.
01:17:31: We wanted to give her every opportunity to, in essence, come to her senses and to leave those doors open.
01:17:39: Yes? 20 to 2? Yes, it was, sir, 20 to 2. Yeah, 20 reps to 2 reps.
01:17:46: Yes, so forever and always, my failure will be archived. People will 100 years from now be able to search out the archives and find out that you beat me 20 reps to 2.
01:17:56: 20 reps to 2. However, however, last week, even after you had been sick and on antibiotics, you did three reps on incline bench and on the incline curls, and I only did one.
01:18:07: So you tripled me on that one. So does that make you feel better? Okay, your reputation for being fair and objective is still intact.
01:18:15: Okay, Rich, turn off his microphone. Okay, then afterwards, we did standing curls.
01:18:21: I doubled you up. But anyways, I'm sorry we're doing this to you, David. It's just, you know, just to let you know we have fun here on the program.
01:18:31: Hey, from what I understand, you're getting your exercise right now chasing around people that only go up to your knees.
01:18:40: That's a back workout. Let me tell you something. You're getting a back workout every day with all the little ones.
01:18:46: So anyhow, you are exactly right. It's very much focused upon the emotional, and that's why
01:18:52: I say the emotional fades. The newness goes away. And that's my hope that the
01:19:01: Holy Spirit will then utilize that opportunity in the future once that raw emotionalism is gone to start looking for something that's solid ground because, as you and I both know, emotions are not the basis for anything like that.
01:19:15: Well, James, a quick follow -up question. This didn't come out of the program. I'm not really sure. Was she encouraged by somebody other than herself to come forward, maybe among Roman Catholics, or was it something she decided to do?
01:19:30: Really good question. She didn't say. It is self -evident from the emails
01:19:38: I've received that she has, for at least six months, been in contact with Timothy Staples, Scott Hahn, Marcus Grodi, Steve Ray, Art Sippo says that he was in contact with her early on.
01:19:55: And so the entire Roman Catholic apologetic community has been just licking its chops over this.
01:20:03: And I should say, and I mentioned this in the web article, but I'll mention it again, very early on,
01:20:10: Father Mitchell Pacwa told me what he had told Pat, and that was don't insert yourself into the apologetic realm, don't get involved in that kind of thing, don't be used that way.
01:20:22: Obviously his advice eventually was not followed, but at least he was one of the few people who didn't do what
01:20:29: I'm sure others were strongly pushing her to do. But as to who it was, I don't know. Was it a group of people?
01:20:35: I would assume that it probably was. What was the timing? Not sure.
01:20:42: Not sure. All righty, sir. Thank you. Thank you for calling. God bless. Bye. All righty.
01:20:47: I don't see... Is that light going bye -bye? I don't see any other phone calls. 866 -854 -6763.
01:20:56: 866 -854 -6763 is the phone number if you would like to get involved in the program today.
01:21:01: We still have enough time for probably one more good call coming in in regards to...
01:21:09: Someone on the channel is trying to talk to me while I am talking on the air. It's a difficult thing to do. But Tess in channel is asking me what
01:21:17: I think of Calvary Chapel, and I suppose that's a good time to re -announce the debate that I'll be doing against George Bryson of Calvary Chapel on the subject of the doctrines of grace, probably specifically, is there a divine decree of election at Biola, April 2nd over in California.
01:21:39: And once we get more details as to time, specific location, it's supposed to be... They're talking multiple thousands of people as far as attendance here.
01:21:48: Now I've heard that before, but who knows. But we will be letting you know which direction it will go, and make sure that you have the opportunity if you're in the
01:21:58: L .A. area to be on. What I would like to see happen, quite honestly, I think the way to air this best, and we're shooting for this, and I am open to do it.
01:22:10: And I'm really hoping this is going to happen. I'm just throwing this out so you all can pray that it does happen.
01:22:16: But since Mr. Bryson and I just finished a written debate, in the pages of the Christian Research Journal, what we'd like to see happen would be prior to the formal debate at Biola, an appearance of myself and Mr.
01:22:30: Bryson on the Bible Answer Man broadcast to debate the issue that way. That would be,
01:22:35: I think, the best way to do it when Mr. Staples and I have done that. We did three hours on the Bible Answer Man and then a three -hour debate.
01:22:42: That allows a good, a fair amount of discussion of issues.
01:22:49: I've been told that these debates follow the Bonson -Stein format and are only about 90 minutes in length, which is very, very fast, very, very demanding, and that length of debate always leaves all sorts of questions that would be going from another direction.
01:23:08: Someone else just asked, did you say last week that you might be doing a debate on paedo -baptism? Well, eventually there has been a discussion of doing one on the
01:23:17: East Coast and one on the West Coast. In either case, those are not yet scheduled, and who knows if they'll happen and when and so on and so forth.
01:23:28: But I can tell you one thing, those particular debates will be done in a
01:23:33: Christian manner. They will be done as an intramural debate because I embrace my brothers and sisters in Christ who are
01:23:43: Presbyterians as brothers and sisters in the Lord. Some of them are very, very close to me, and so those types of debates are very, very different.
01:23:53: Those are where we get to sit down in the bond of love and discuss what the
01:23:58: Scriptures say concerning that very important issue, but we still get to do that within the bond of love, and that's how we've done it in the past, and that's the only way that I will ever do it because that's the only way to do it.
01:24:12: So that would be something I'd be looking forward to. I have addressed that issue recently, last
01:24:18: July, in fact. What was that, August? I think it was August at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.
01:24:24: There are some sermons on that on our website. There are lots of sermons out there from the other perspectives, so I suppose it's fair to have a few from this perspective as well.
01:24:35: Someone's yelling out, The Covenant! Yeah, that's my response too. The Covenant! The New Covenant! But we won't get into that on the program today.
01:24:42: But anyways, lots of stuff coming up, debates on open theism, inclusivism.
01:24:48: July 11th, a debate against Patrick Madrid on Long Island at Lord Willing, the Huntington townhouse, on the subject of the veneration of saints, prayers and veneration of saints.
01:25:00: That's going to be, I think, a very important debate, and I hope that everybody will be praying about that one as well.
01:25:07: Lots of preparation still, trying to find time in the midst of everything else to finish up this book on Harold Camping's false teaching concerning the church, a book that Calvary Press is publishing entitled, entitled, that is not the right word.
01:25:23: It is titled. Thank you very much. Entitled is a different verb, isn't it? Yes, it is a different verb. Thank you. Titled, Dangerous Airwaves.
01:25:33: And anyone who wants to say, Hey, where do you get those cool titles?
01:25:38: Well, guess what? Java Man came up with that one as well. Dangerous Airways.
01:25:44: We will give him proper credit. And, by the way, I haven't mentioned this, and I'm very, very bad, bad, bad man for not having done so.
01:25:52: If you go to aomin .org, you will see in the upper right -hand side, yes,
01:25:58: I pissed you off. I understood what you were doing, and I appreciate that. In the upper right -hand side, you, who is debating
01:26:06: Prometheism? John Sanders will be my opponent for that. On the upper right -hand side of the website, you will see a really pretty cruise ship floating down a beautiful section of ocean next to the
01:26:21: Alaskan wilderness. And we have a cruise coming up, and if you'd like to go on a cruise where I will be speaking on apologetics issues and be pampered and treated like royalty for seven days for about half or less of the cost that it is normally charged to cruise the
01:26:44: Inside Passage because we lock these rates in just a few days after 9 -1 -1, that's the link to click on because that particular cruise is coming up at the end of August.
01:26:58: And so you need to, if you've been thinking about it or didn't know about it, whatever, go to almin .org,
01:27:04: click on that link, and take a look at it and see if that might be something. I know that we've gone on two cruises now.
01:27:11: My wife just really wanted to go on a cruise really, really bad. And so much so that when the first offer came in, she said, we're going on that cruise whether I have to teach or not.
01:27:22: So we went and we loved it. And the Christian Fellowship is just awesome on those cruises.
01:27:31: It truly is. I don't get much in the way of vacations, don't really get vacations at all.
01:27:36: But anyways, it's just the food alone is just a tremendous thing.
01:27:45: I now sound like a MacArthur promo. Well, he goes on them too. But what can
01:27:51: I say? Tell them about me. Oh, well, my daughter's name is
01:27:58: Summer and she's in the chat room. What about you? What am I supposed to tell them? That you were on your junior high school volleyball team and you were undefeated.
01:28:07: You went on the cruise. Yes, you went on the second cruise. And you thought that it was just the cat's meow, that it was the greatest thing that you've ever done.
01:28:14: And you're all excited about going on the next one. And so everyone who wants to go on a cruise and meet
01:28:21: Summer, don't worry about me. Don't worry about anybody else. But if you want to meet Summer, then you need to sign up soon and get ready to...
01:28:32: If AOMN buys me a cruise, I'll debate JRW on baptism. If I lose, you can throw me overboard.
01:28:39: Well, that would be a good way. But what happens if you win? We're in the midst of a whole bunch of water.
01:28:45: So what are you going to do? Try to splash at me or something like that? That doesn't make any sense. Anyways, you come on along.
01:28:53: Come on along there, Pistuo. And you'll enjoy the cruises. Do they need opera singers on those cruises?
01:29:04: It's interesting watching the things in the channel as they scroll by. It is a lot of fun being in there.
01:29:10: Anyways, I hope the discussion today has been of assistance to you, has helped you to understand what the issues of truth really are.
01:29:18: And I hope that as you go back and listen to these last two archived programs, you will see that our greatest concern is for the purity and integrity of the
01:29:27: Gospel because that is the power of God and the salvation, despite the fact that our world is extremely confused on these issues.
01:29:35: The only way to show true Christian love is to speak the Gospel and to speak it with clarity.
01:29:41: And so don't buy into the strange ideas of the world around us. Don't buy into the humanism of the world around us.
01:29:47: Many of those who've written complaining that I would even address this subject truly have embraced humanistic concepts.
01:29:54: If we read the New Testament for what it says, then the greatest act of love that we can show to anyone is to preach and proclaim to them the
01:30:01: Gospel of Jesus Christ and to do so without compromise. That's what we've attempted to do and by God's grace we will continue to do it.
01:30:08: Thanks for listening and God bless. AOMIN .ORG