The Coming Home Network

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight six six eight five four six seven six three and now with today's topic.

Here is James White.

Response to The Journey Home and the Question of Catholic Conversion

And good afternoon and welcome to the dividing line. My name is James White that is a name you can repeat if you wish to even though there are some folks who evidently have a problem pronouncing that particular name and What are we talking about?

Well, of course, we're talking about Monday evening's Presentation of the journey home on the EWTN Network where my sister Patti Bonds Appeared and talked about her conversion to Roman Catholicism. But it was a fascinating program.

Not. Not so much For what was said, but for what? Wasn't said. I guess you might say I'm trying to turn sound off here. Okay. There we go anyways, and that is. Many references were made to myself Though a name was never attached to me.

I've that's really sure what exactly that's all about. I guess that's sort of the envoy magazine way of doing things. So you may recall a few years ago envoy magazine I was on the front cover though. It wasn't me.

They put a something in front of my face and and did an old whole article refuting what I had said In a footnote in an article I did on the doctrine of the Trinity. But they never bothered to say who I was they didn't give any references.

You couldn't go look anything up. I found absolutely amazing. Well that has continued and Of course in a fascinating way that I think communicates some stuff to us. It's actually rather encouraging. Let me give an example.

We're gonna be playing sections from the program today and making comments and responding to them. And then there are various individuals like Phil Provoznik and others that we have challenged to call into the program at eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three and If there's some things we say you'd like to take issue with you can call that number and we will be taking Taking your phone calls today on the program later on but must much much to get to.

What I found truly fascinating this first clip is before Mrs. Bonds said word one Marcus Grodi.

Said this our guest this evening Patti Bonds is going to talk to us about her journey of faith. Journey into the Catholic Church, and I need to tell you something about Patti. Patti You may not recognize the name Patti, but if I told you the name of her brother you would probably recognize.

He's the sister of a prominent well-known Anti-catholic apologist. If I mentioned his name many of you would be familiar with his books and tapes. And I would say that in that sense Patti's conversion to the Catholic Church Was very difficult for her because of those pressures.

Being the sister of a well-known apologist. So we need your prayers tonight. This can be a difficult time, but she's here to share her journey.

Nothing had been nothing was said whatsoever by mrs. Bonds prior to that introduction and I am a prominent well-known Anti-catholic apologist. Well of course we've gone over the gross inconsistency of the constant use of anti-catholic.

By Roman Catholic apologists they would of course object to the constant use of the phrase Antiprotestant. If I were to refer to Marcus Grodi as an anti-protestant he would go no no no I think Protestants are Christians and even though I affirmed the anathemas of Trent.

Yada yada yada the.

We've already discussed the fact that this is a term that is used to attempt to poison the well. It is something we've called them on over and over again, and it's just something that evidently They are more than happy to continue in the hypocritical use of this term.

And not engage the the subjects in a fair way, but. It is interesting. Prominent well-known anti-catholic apologist. You would recognize his tapes and books, but isn't it interesting that one of the things that does not come out in this program is that?

The guest has not listened to any of those tapes and Only began to read some of the books as a part of the conversion process and even them in a very emotional fashion by her own confession. That's I would think would be relevant to the issues at hand.

But unfortunately it did not come out and was not mentioned in the process of the program. Well anyways we move on. I have 13 clips. I'm gonna play today. I'm not gonna try to dwell very long on any one of them except Maybe the last one and we do want to be able to take some phone calls today.

So I do invite folks to get on the line when they have an opportunity to do so at 866 -854 -6763. One of the ironies that I have pointed out to my sister in emails once it was announced. To the family that she was converting.

And for those of you haven't listened before I've have not read the article on our web page, which is www .aomin .org.

Luke.

Luke1251 .html. It's also the main page article right now if you just go to aomin .org. But as you listen to this on archive that will change one of the things that I have mentioned is that as She went through this process she did not talk to me.

She sent me one anonymous email that anonymous email is Posted with my response on the website and by the way I do need to say this I want to thank the many people who have sent Emails this past week.

Giving your testimony of how blessed you have been by that article there have been people who have just been Tremendously helped by the response that I wrote to my sister's anonymous email. I did not know it was my sister.

I did not know who this person was but I felt constrained to provide a rather full response to the email. Of course the Roman Catholics who have responded haven't responded to any of the substance of the email at all.

That is that is the standard way that things work in that particular situation. But many others have been very helped by what was written there. And if that's the why I ended up doing it then that's that's great.

I just want to thank all those people the tremendous outpouring of support that has come across. Come across the Electronic wires shall we say over the past week Tremendous support for what what we've done the stance that we've taken and standing for truth and so on and so forth so I did Want to say that but anyways?

After finally it came out and there is a section and we're going to play for you. Where my sister talks about how it did come out that she was converting. When it finally did come out and I contacted her by email and I started challenging The beliefs that she was adopting.

One of the things I pointed out was that my sister has been baptized three different times and each time. That involved in essence the repudiation of what had happened before each time. She felt I wasn't saved before it wasn't real before now.

It's real now I've come to an understanding that makes this baptism real etc. Etc. And What's fascinating one of the things I pointed out never really got a response to in the email? Was that from Rome's perspective her first baptism justified her?

Her first baptism is what is what made her right before God even though she is twice said that it didn't. Which I find fascinating here's here's her comments on that I can remember learning the.

Basic tenets of the gospel as we understood it and reciting them back to my parents much to their glee. And and. When I was six years old I made what we refer to as a profession of faith I prayed with my father and asked Jesus to be my Lord and Savior.

And and. Later about it less just a little less than a year from then he baptized me.

So that would have been the first initial experience of justification from the Roman Catholic perspective one of the many reasons that we reject the Roman Catholic perspective. Now one of the things as we Monday evening sat around and and watched the Watch the program that made everyone who was watching Sort of stop and eyes get real big and people started looking at each other was the description that was provided of the church that Mrs. Bonds was in until her conversion to Roman Catholicism.

That church is a member of the missionary Denomination and We've been in contact with that church as well. And it was fascinating to hear the description that was provided of that church.

Here's here's how it went. The particular church. I was going to at the time which Was a wonderful church and and I owe them much as far as having taught me What it meant to follow Christ? But We kind of saw ourselves.

I think and as being the the very few people in the world Who really understood God Properly and his word properly. Did you use the word remnant? Oh, yes. Yeah, we were very Calvinist Baptist and and Saw ourselves as that chosen few who really understood him.

Well, and it was a very narrow world.

Very in a sense. You're a small group of believers Based on the idea of Scripture alone As the foundation. Yet on top of that believe that your small group had the one true.

Understood that be a caricature. Would that be a clear way? No, that's definitely true.

Now I I can pretty much guarantee you that if we stood outside that church a Sunday morning with a little clipboard and Had all the people coming out. Take a little survey and we put Calvinistic Baptist as one of the choices for description of that church.

If there were a thousand people there if two of them chose that I would be somewhat surprised. I really would. Now things have changed a little bit over the past couple years. There used to be more reformed folks there than there are now.

But I've never. I've been there a few times. I never heard the term remnant use. Someone else just mentioned who was a member there for a while. They never heard the term remnant used. I've never heard any of the elders use that term.

I I have no idea really what mark where. Marcus Grodd. I was trying to go with that particular comment either. But be that as it may we all found that to be Just a really strange way of describing that particular church.

We're not really sure exactly what what that was all about. Well, anyways moving on it was interesting. Mr. Grodd. I seemingly wanted to emphasize some of the key arguments that Roman Catholic apologists use especially Against.

Especially against solo scriptura and so in this section he talks about the disagreements that exist amongst Protestants at the time.

Did it bother you at all that the Lutheran Church in the corner believe differently or the Presbyterian or even another Baptist? I mean did that ever cross your mind?

Well, like I said, I kind of was just very thankful that. That I was one of the chosen few who who understood better than they did and I even questioned their salvation.

Yeah.

Again, not really sure where that one's going either. I titled that one Lutherans and Baptists. Oh my. Of course that the first day it crosses my mind when I when I hear Marcus Grodd I saying that is is I want to say well Does it ever bother you that there are Dominicans and Augustinians and Franciscans?

And and you have all these the discounts Carmelites and you have all these other viewpoints out there within The Roman Catholic Church that has disagreements on this that or the other thing and and. Does that somehow mean something and I of course, that's why they don't have me on the program very often I'm sure because that would that really wouldn't accomplish what they were looking for.

Anyways now at this next one. This next one when we when we first when I first heard this and we had to go back and we had to listen to it. And unfortunately, he didn't say what we thought he said but actually Listen listen to the description of Me I I feel like saying I feel like changing my name to hello.

I'm mr. Sibling. I no longer have a name. I'm just mr. Sibling, but this description of me by by Marcus Grodd. I.

See if you can figure out what he's saying. Whatever. I'll be hard to the church, especially when you have such a vehement.

Sibling who's anti-catholic now? Let me let me play that one again because the story goes by pretty quick. It's only a seven second clip, but.

What what is what word is is describing sibling here will be hard to the church, especially when you have such a vehement Sibling who's anti-catholic? Now? What's that word again?

Ah, there we go. The he meant we thought he said behemoth. I Sort of I sort of thought that was sort of cool. You know, I sort of thought Yeah, the he meant a vehement sibling. I had never heard of a vehement sibling before.

But I guess what he's trying to paint the picture is of this just raw type of person out there. That's just constantly doing nothing. But you know chasing nuns around, you know behind the church or something and raw just wants to convert.

The.

Vehement sibling.

Which.

Again for simple honesty You would think that it would be brought out a vehement sibling that you never bothered to talk to about this and in fact wrote you a lengthy email in response to an anonymous email you sent to him and Etc. Etc. Etc.

But that of course didn't didn't didn't come out. But what was emphasized unfortunately, and I did I was concerned about this because this is important. This is important to the use that Catholic apologists want to make of this whole thing is they have to come up some way with some way of Maintaining the idea of a connection here so that.

The idea is my sister had Knew all of my books and had attended my debates and was a supporter of the ministry and all the rest of stuff. But then she saw the truth of the Catholic faith. Yadda. Yadda.

Yadda. That's not what happened. And my sister to this day does not have responses as we'll see in the last clip to the most fundamental Objections to the Roman Catholic position. And was unaware of much of our work before him but notice how in the Questioning and I did it did seem to me and to others as well that growed.

I want her to go there and she didn't want to go there. He wanted he kept bringing the issue up. She'd move someplace else if she had wanted to say much more about me. She could have. But it seemed he wanted her to say more listen to the the way this the question is phrased here.

So, okay, given all that background your anti-catholic background not just your past but the the constant influence of your sibling.

Whatever opened your heart to the challenge now. Did you catch that?

You're constant. Let me play it again. The constant influence of your sibling. The constant.

Influence of your sibling. Well constant influence, what does that mean? Does that mean that that there was a connection to where there was. She'd she'd discover some brilliant insight from Scott Hahn and would say well, what do you think about this and I'd go duh I don't know and that's why she converted.

No, that's not what happened instead you have No contact going on whatsoever. So I don't know what the Sibling I don't know what that means. There wasn't any constant influence of mr. Sibling. I Feel sorry if anybody has a name.

Hi, mr. Sibling that seemingly is is what I am anyways, but there was no constant influence of Of a sibling there. I would have Obviously had she contacted me and said, you know, I'm starting to look at this stuff.

It would have been more than happy to talk to her about it, but she did not. Well, what did she do. Well instead she went off and she found another source of information and what had happened was a few years earlier and I had heard about this to a particular individual who Does some sort of what should supposed to be missionary work in?

France had spoken at Northwest Community Church, which is the name of the church. She was going to and this individual had made some comments about Roman Catholicism even at the time That had gotten back to me and I hadn't really thought much about it and my sister didn't think much about much about either but she dug up his email and began Corresponding with him and here's what she says about that.

I'm really not giving it a lasting a lasting thought because it just wasn't relevant to my life at the time. But I knew that there was one person who had Investigated the church to some to some degree.

So I knew I couldn't go to my pastor because I I kind of knew what I'd get, you know. Run repent stay away from all that. I knew I couldn't go to my family because I already knew where they stood.

I didn't have I didn't have to ask I already knew. Well, that isn't the case. Notice she says, you know, she didn't Go to the pastors or church, even though we have been told that she was Confronted on these things probably not that particular point in time a little bit later and she did not go to her family.

She did not go to her father she did not come to me other than that as I said that actually this is even in the period of time before the Anonymous email that she sent to me instead. She contacted a man.

I'll go ahead and tell you who it is by name David Bjork and Mr. Bjork is a missionary. I guess that'd be a missionary missionary Because he's with the mission was is I don't know with the missionary denomination in France and That's where she was getting this kind of Information which I'll go to the next clip here.

She describes in the following words and in retrospect. I've looked back at everything.

He told me in several months that that I pretty much picked his brain and he he never once Told me anything that wasn't totally accurate about the church. So even though he's not Catholic himself He was objective and it just gave me this is what this is what I?

Understand the Catholic Church to believe and he cut church documents cut and paste the church documents and early church fathers and. What it did to me really was was show me that my previous beliefs about the church were were based on falsehood.

I didn't really understand the Catholic Church. Well that increased my desire to understand. I just had to know what was really believed.

Now there's a number of things that that go on there there's there is and there will be a Repetition of this in just a moment. And someone just asked that the missionary alliance. No it is not it is a different denomination.

But the The.

Assertion is going to be made that my books and My materials misrepresent the Roman Catholic Church.

And.

See he he provided to me. She says the these church Documents and and so on and so forth well So does the Roman Catholic controversy, but evidently if it was being provided by David Bjork, that's one thing but if it's being provided by her brother, that's another thing even if it's the same document and As the email that Mrs. Bond sent to me Indicated when she tried to read My books she said a dark cloud of depression came over her.

Well No matter what else you say that clearly indicates that what I have written was not looked at fairly. I have seen no evidence whatsoever that anything on the Website on Roman Catholicism including the documentation of numerous errors On the part of Roman Catholic apologists including those that she has chosen to be her favorites Has ever been even seen let alone looked at though.

She certainly would know it's there. And remember she has informed me that she has never been able to listen to a single debate because as soon as they start I am so mean and so unloving and so nasty that I Intimidate my opponents and so she won't listen to those debates.

Now all of that clearly indicates that there's Significantly more going on here than just a analytical Examination of facts that are available So on and so forth so this individual then David Bjork provides this information again only coming from One particular perspective and None of this is brought to anyone who could provide any type of response.

In fact I guess one thing that's nice is that if this is the final form of the testimony, and it's not going to You know Move from there, then it's very clear that from the beginning She never took the claims of Rome To anyone who could provide an answer because she just simply assumed that she knew however That it does not follow that she did know what the the answers what the answers truly were to those Issues.

Now this next section is most interesting this next Quotation it's about a minute and a half and this is where I can start understanding what's going on because here she discusses what happened in July of 2000 and that if you've read the document on our website is when I received the anonymous email that I did respond to in regards to The attraction of the Roman Catholic Church so on and so forth and listen carefully at the beginning concerning This particular Just listen carefully what said probably about let's see looking here about 15 seconds in.

So part of me was excited and part of me was was worried. And and I knew that the toughest thing I could put myself through who was to read my brother's works. And in fact I've heard from many a convert since I came home who said that was their good last gauntlet as well.

Is we knew that the toughest thing to get through. If we could get through your brother's books and know that God wanted us to Be Catholic there was no doubt in our mind, and I've had many letters like that.

I Didn't know that at the time, but that was the gauntlet. I threw down for myself as well, so I spent early July waiting through a couple more of his books, and I'd already read the book on Mary earlier and and It was a tough time because the things he was saying no longer rang true.

I Knew too much about the faith. I knew what what I was watching was someone do a very good job of destroying a church that didn't exist.

No.

Explain that that's interesting the way you said that he was doing a good job of destroying a church that didn't exist. Well.

His his arguments against the church are based on misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church actually teaches and believes. But he does a superb job of Defeating the arguments he perceives to be What the church is and so they are troublesome to a lot of people and if they don't understand.

You know Catholics don't understand what they believe or an outsider doesn't understand what the Catholic Church really teaches. It sounds very very effective, but.

Well, there's that was sort of the meat of the program. I would say. At least we got into some really important things. Now mrs. Bond's neglects to note in this entire program that she wrote the anonymous email that appears on our website.

I think that would be important. It would not have helped to say that she was not in contact with me during this time. Nor that she has always refused to listen to a single debate where the two sides can be heard side by side because such would Speak rather loudly.

Next in the emails mrs. Bond's has sent me. She has accused me of many things mainly of being arrogant egotistical and unloving. Especially when I would bring up any Roman Catholic teachings at all. But what she hasn't done is attempt to make a case that my arguments are straw men.

I mean, how could she straw men get ripped up in debates? Indeed the constant refrain of the better Roman Catholic apologists is that what sets out in Omega Ministries apart from the jack-chicks of our world?

Aside from our reform theology is the accuracy of our representations the Roman Church's teachings. Now it is a constant accusation that we misrepresent those we deal with and Just as constant is the failure of such people to document from the huge amount of material available such misrepresentations.

The careful listener will note that this program never gives a single example of a misrepresentation on my part. Mrs. Bond said she had read the book on Mary but she has never offered a single word of rebuttal or criticism of it and the person who reads.

The anonymous email she wrote at this time will note that her response to reading one of my books She did not say which one it was at the time was not you are misrepresenting the church. But quote I was overcome with a cloud of depression.

End quote. That is an emotional response not a critical response. She later said that this time caused her great distress. Yeah, reading the truth and not having an answer while continuing toward Rome does tend to cause distress.

Next I truly rejoice in her statement that she has had many many letters about people finding my books to be the last hurdle. I am sorry. They did not have ears to hear the truth, but I am greatly blessed to know that many others have.

Indeed for many others that hurdle was a God-given obstacle to their emotionally driven run in the arms of Rome. Ironically some of the nastiest emails this week completely contradicted the premise of this show which repeatedly emphasized How they anyway viewed the work of Alpha Omega Ministries as well-known Widespread and challenging the nasty grams the past week including the words of Mark Shea a Roman Catholic apologist Attempted to say just the opposite.

I Do wish they'd make a match to get their story straight amongst all of them. Ironically. Marcus Grodi then went on to say that Luther completely misunderstood Rome and Raised the issue of salvation by works saying that Luther was responding to the idea that Rome taught that you're saved solely by works.

What's ironic about that is anyone who has read my works or listened to my debates knows that I have never misrepresented Rome on this point and have always attacked its synergism. I Always point out that Trent condemned anyone who would say that you can That you can be saved by works alone.

Trent anathematized that the problem with Rome is its Synergism its attempt to join God's grace and the human will. I am a monergist and I of course have been very consistent on that and if if in point of fact There had been any reading and understanding of my position By mrs. Bonds that would not have been an issue.

Eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three. I see that Apollonio Latar just left the channel. I'm gonna have to scroll back up to see what nasty things he said, but Allegedly he can't listen today.

His real audio is messed up, but said something about a response. Let's take a look at that he said last week he was gonna call in but That happens very frequently. We're still waiting for Phil provost Nick to call in.

Having had a week now to respond to what we said last week. Maybe some of you would like to call in eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three. We'll be right back.

Justification by Faith and the Protestant-Catholic Divide

The history of the Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith. Once the core of the Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine. In his book the God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of Understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme.

Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith. Dr. J. Adams says I lost sleep over this book.

I simply couldn't put it down. James White writes the way an exegetically and theologically oriented pastor appreciates. This is no book for casual reading. There is solid meat throughout an outstanding contribution in every sense of the words.

The God who justifies by dr. James White. Get your copy today at a omen org.

More than any time in the past Roman Catholics and evangelicals are working together. They are standing shoulder-to-shoulder against social evils they are joining across denominational boundaries in renewal movements and Many evangelicals are finding the history tradition and grandeur of the Roman Catholic Church appealing.

This newfound rapport has caused many evangelical leaders and laypeople to question the age-old disagreements that have divided Protestants and Catholics. Aren't we all saying the same thing in a different language?

James White's book the Roman Catholic controversy is an absorbing look at current views of tradition in Scripture the papacy the mass purgatory and indulgences and Marian doctrine. James White points out the crucial differences that remain regarding the Christian life and the heart of the gospel itself.

They cannot be ignored. Order your copy of the Roman Catholic controversy by going to our website at a omen.

Org this portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church.

The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day. The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45. Evening services are at 6 30 p .m.

On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 to 6 grace. If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at PR BC org where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

Further Discussion of Catholic Claims, Debates, and Upcoming Ministry Events

And welcome back to the dividing line. My name is James White. We are providing a response today concerning Concerning the the journey home. That's someone the chat jail to said someone quit listening so I can get back in.

Yes, we're. We're we're locking them in today. Indeed. We are responding to Monday evening is the airing of the the journey home and mrs. Bond's comments concerning the reasons for her conversion to Roman Catholicism, by the way.

Two new debates scheduled just in the past week that a number of you might want to know about. First on April 2nd now these you know are subject to change, but they're looking pretty pretty solid right now.

April 2nd I believe I can't give you the the location. I believe it's on the Campus of Biola in California. Right now the schedule is that I will be debating George Bryson of Calvary Chapel on the subject of Basically Calvinism and Some of you seen the two-part debate that he and I did in the CRI Journal.

We were going to do a debate on Hopefully a focused element. You can't not possibly do all of Calvinism in one night. And I think they want to keep these debates pretty Pretty focused and pretty sharp.

So that's going to be it's gonna be a challenge. But anyways, April 2nd is a Tuesday night.

In.

In LA, I believe with George Bryson and then three days later April 5th, I believe is the date for the debate in Salt Lake City with LDS attorney and apologist Martin Tanner and that will probably be on the Doctrine of God.

So that's going to be a busy week. So you all might want to Be praying for us for that week if you're in the California area we'll try to get more information up on the calendar page on the website on the website concerning details and locations and times and all the rest of stuff for both of those two debates and then in July we will have one week.

Oh in one week spans We'll be doing three debates three major debates as well. So some important stuff coming up. Keep that in mind. The work of the ministry Continues on now this next this next section is a little bit of is probably one of the Sadder sections and that is anyone who has read the Roman Catholic controversy knows that.

One of the well the thesis really of the book I mean I do spend a lot of time on soul scripture in that book. The thesis of the book is that Rome's gospel cannot give you peace. Rome's gospel because it is man-centered because it is focused upon what man does because God's grace is.

Is.

Unable.

To truly Provide The this the real grounds that the gospel requires in Roman Catholicism. Because of that the one thing you cannot have is is peace and That was one of the first things that I said to mrs. Bonds when I contacted her by email is You know someday when you want to when you want to know peace you will.

You will not be able to find it in the system that you are now that you're now embracing and hence I found it's ironic to listen to this section.

That was a real blessing because through through the first well the last few months before that phone call I'd had two requests of God. I said During I know this is of you. I know you're doing this in my life.

I know don't know where you're headed with this, but I know this is you that I'm dealing with. I'm asking for two things during this journey. One is peace.

Asking for one thing actually two things peace the other one was joy But asking for peace and It just is utterly ironic To go from having once professed the completed work of Christ To now professing the incompleted work of Christ the repetitive Sacrifice of the mass that cannot save it cannot perfect Etc etc etc.