April 20, 2023 Show with Justin Peters on “The Doctrine of the Holy Spirit”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson,

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the

planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 20th

day of April, 2023.

I am thrilled to have back on the program one of my very favorite

guests to interview.

He's also become a dear friend over the years, and his name should not be a stranger to the

vast majority of my listening audience.

His name is Justin Peters, evangelist, conference speaker, and founder of Justin Peters Ministries.

Today, we're going to be addressing the doctrine of the Holy Spirit.

We're going to be discussing how and why many Charismatics and Pentecostals

get the doctrine of the Holy Spirit all wrong, or at least wrong in many ways.

And it's not only isolated to Charismatics and Pentecostals, but even

among cessationist evangelicals who misunderstand this very important

person of the Godhead and doctrine.

We're also going to be discussing two upcoming events where Justin Peters will be speaking,

the Grace Life Church Conference in Anvil, Pennsylvania, and also

the 2023 G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia.

I intend to be at both of those events, and I will certainly be in the

Atlanta area this fall for the G3 Conference, where I always man an exhibitor's booth for Iron Trip and

Zion Radio.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Justin Peters.

Chris, it's an honor to be with you, brother.

Thank you so much for having me back on.

Oh, it's a thrill to have you back on.

And let me right away give our listeners our email address.

If you have any questions for Justin Peters, you can ask him a

wide variety of questions on theology and things relevant to the Scriptures,

things about his personal testimony and ministry.

But we're going to be focusing on the doctrine of the Holy Spirit, so we would hope that many if not

most of those questions involve that very important topic.

First of all, Justin, before we get into the discussion on the doctrine of the Holy Spirit, why don't

you tell our listeners, for the rare number of people listening that may be

unfamiliar with your ministry on this program, tell our listeners about Justin

Peters Ministries.

Sure, Chris.

My name is Justin Peters, and my ministry is very uncreatively named, Justin Peters Ministries.

And I'm a full -time evangelist.

God has graciously opened up this ministry to me.

My first love and commitment is to expositional preaching, preaching God's Word verse by

verse.

But what I'm most well known for is engaging the Word of Faith Movement

and New Apostolic Reformation.

So these are twin movements that are kind of better known, broadly speaking, is

the health and wealth gospel, the name and claimant gospel, the prosperity gospel, the doctrine that says

it is always God's will for a Christian to be wealthy.

It's always God's will for a Christian to be physically healed.

You should never be sick, or if you do get sick, then physical healing is guaranteed.

As long as you have enough faith, as long as you make the right positive confessions, as long as you sow enough seed

into some minister's ministry, which, in other words, give him money, him or her money, and in return,

God will grant you a harvest.

And so some of the more well -known names of this movement, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland,

Jesse Duplantis, Andrew Womack, Joseph Prince, Joel Osteen,

some of those names are some of the more well -known, Joyce Meyer as well.

And so it's a heretical movement.

It's got heretical theology.

It's not just health and wealth, but it is indeed a different gospel, a very different view of God, a different

view of Christ and the Atonement that results in

an overemphasis on health and wealth and making promises that the Bible

simply does not make.

So that's kind of what I'm known for, but that's not my only interest.

I teach on Roman Catholicism and various issues.

I've written a book, working on another one, and I have a YouTube channel.

So that's kind of me in a nutshell.

Yes, just to throw in a couple more of the shocking,

blasphemous heresies of the Word of Faith movement, not that everybody who identifies

with the Word of Faith movement believes in these things, but they are prominent in that movement.

One is that Jesus Christ actually became, according to them, a demonic entity

while hanging on the cross on Calvary and that he became the

first born -again man in hell after being

tortured by Satan and the demons.

So utterly shocking, obviously not only blasphemous, but a

total misunderstanding and a false concept of what hell is.

It seems to be borrowing from Dante's Inferno, where Satan and the demons are ruling in

hell and they are there torturing Jesus, when in reality, hell was created

as a torture chamber for the devil and his angels and

obviously the reprobate, those who never come to Christ

while they are living on this earth, they will be cast in there in that torture chamber for eternity

with the devil and his angels, but it primarily was created for them, the devil and his angels, and yet

the Word of Faith movement seems to have Satan and his demons ruling there.

Yes, that's right.

I don't think I need to say any more about that, but I think I've shocked many of our listeners enough who didn't know

that.

Welt, please tell us about your book, the new book that's coming out.

Yeah, Chris, so my seminar on the Word of Faith movement is entitled Clouds Without Water,

and I take that from a reference in the book of Jude, verse 12.

That's one of the ways that Jude describes false teachers is as clouds without water, and so that's the title of

my seminar, and this book basically is the book version of my seminar, Clouds

Without Water.

So I am working on that.

I've actually already got kind of a condensed version of it.

It's published and out already in other languages, though.

It's not in English yet, but it's a short book by design, so we can print as

many as possible and get out into some of these countries, distribute them as widely as possible.

It's already out in Russian, I believe Ukrainian, and

Chinese, so it's not yet available in English, but Lord willing, my English version

will be longer, so I'm going to take this shorter version, put more meat on the bone, so to speak,

and that will be the English version of Clouds Without Water.

Best I can tell, either later this year or first

part of next year will be out.

Well, I'm excited about that.

That was the theme of your address to the pastors gathered at my

Iron Trip and Zion Radio Free Pastors Luncheon.

What was it like, three years ago perhaps?

I think that's about right.

Was it pre -COVID?

I believe it was.

Yes, it was pre -COVID.

Yeah, so it had to be at least three, maybe going on four years ago.

Yeah, but I remember how riveted the men were to your presentation and

even heard very positive feedback from charismatic pastors in attendance who were

obviously not in the Word of Faith movement extreme, but they were men that even

recognized as charismatics that these things are wicked teachings that the Word of Faith

movement capitalizes on.

And if anybody wants to keep updated on that book and also about where Justin Peters will be speaking

and everything else you need to know about Justin Peters, go to justinpeters .org, justinpeters

.org.

One of those events where he is speaking is something that I mentioned just a few

minutes ago briefly.

He is speaking at Grace Life Church in Anvil,

Pennsylvania, and that's going to be April 20th through the 30th.

It's a free event.

And tell us about this exciting event.

Yeah, Chris, I'm looking forward to that.

You gave the name of the church and location there.

This is a church that has Dave Cunningham as its pastor.

It's a church that's led by a biblical plurality of elders, which the Bible

prescribes and describes.

But Dave Cunningham is kind of like the primary preaching pastor.

Yes, he was at my pastor's luncheon last week.

Yeah, yeah.

Along with Flip Michaels as well.

Yeah, Flip Michaels, he's another one of the elders there, great, great guy.

He's written a book too, Five Half Truths, that I had the pleasure of endorsing for him.

Yes, I interviewed him on that.

And several years ago, the publisher gave us 100 copies at the giveaway at the pastor's luncheon.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's a great little book, great little book.

So, yeah, it's a great church.

I've been there before, really enjoyed my time there with them.

I've been there twice before, just really good brothers.

And so if you're in the area or are up for a road trip, yeah, we would love to have

you join us.

I think it'll be a profitable time.

I am going to be speaking on the Holy Spirit, who he is, what

he does, what he doesn't do.

And also I'm going to have another session on how God does and does not speak to us today.

So, in other words, how to know the voice of God.

And so those two sessions are, you know, they're different, but they're very much related.

Yeah, in fact, that is one of the areas that I have become

familiar with.

Cessationist pastors, even, on occasion, will get that area wrong, even though they're

cessationists.

Sometimes they will speak either before, during, or after a sermon.

They will speak as if they are operating or functioning as charismatics,

believing in new revelation from God, even though they would likely deny that.

But some of these men who are not even in the charismatic or Pentecostal camp will speak

that way.

And I'm sure that's going to be refuted in your session

on that, even the non -charismatic version of that.

Correct.

Correct, Chris.

And it's one of those things, I think, sometimes we're just careless in our lingo, careless in the

terminology we use when we say things like, the Lord told me so -and -so.

And you're right, I've heard that even from cessationists.

But it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

You need to be more careful with the words that you're using, because what you're implying there,

you've entered some very, very deep waters.

So we need to be careful.

If you say, the Lord spoke to me, then you need to have chapter and verse for that, because God

speaks through and only through the scriptures today, not in still, small voices

or hunches or feelings or anything like that.

That's kind of a whole theology that, quite honestly, we've just created

out of whole cloth, but simply is not supported in scripture.

Now, some people, a lot of people, actually do mean exactly what they say.

They do believe God speaks to them in a direct, quotable sense outside of scripture.

So they absolutely do mean that.

But those of us in the cessationist camp, I think sometimes they just get a little

too careless with the terminology that they use.

And some of this stuff comes out of nothing

more or less than pride.

And I'll give you an example of how I mean that.

There will be sometimes, even with cessationists,

a false humility over a sermon they preached, a book they

wrote, a song they wrote.

And they will say, when someone gives them a compliment,

a word of praise for what they've accomplished in this sermon, book or

song or other thing, they will say, oh, no, don't thank me.

This was all of God.

Every word is all of God.

Don't thank me at all.

I'm just the vessel here.

And no, I'm sorry, pal.

You're exalting what you did, whether it be a sermon, book or song.

You're exalting it to the level of scripture.

So knock it off with your false humility.

That's right.

That's right.

I agree, Chris.

I'm glad you said that.

And one example, when you are describing that, that pops into my mind is Beth Moore, because she wrote in

her book, I don't have it in front of me, but I think it was when godly people do ungodly

things.

I think that was a particular book that she wrote this.

But she said, and if this isn't a direct quote, again, I don't have it in front of me, but it's really, really close.

She said, I did not write these words by simple preference.

I wrote them because had I not, the rocks in my yard would have cried out.

Yeah.

And she said, I am simply the one who received this

bug -eyed.

I remember that.

She said, I sat there bug -eyed as she received this revelation from God.

And so, yeah, what an audacious claim.

I mean, just, you know, absolutely false humility.

That should be the quintessential example of false humility.

Yeah.

Yes.

And also, when you were just describing that, I had another person pop into my head.

And it's very ironic because most King James -only

fundamentalists despise charismatic teaching and Pentecostalism.

And yet a segment, not all, I have to be careful, there are many King James -only

fundamentalists who do not at all associate or support the writing and

teaching of Gail Riplinger.

But Gail Riplinger, she initially had as the author

of her books on the cover G .A. Riplinger, which in her description was

the abbreviation for God and Riplinger.

Oh, wow.

So, very strange indeed.

Oh, indeed.

Yeah.

And there's just no fear, Chris, seemingly nowadays in the vast majority

of the evangelical world.

Sadly, there seems to be no fear of putting words in God's mouth that he did not say.

Man, people just take that so tritely, you know, to put words in God's mouth that he did not

say.

That's something that God holds very seriously.

He takes it very seriously.

Psalm 138 verse 2, God said, I hold my name and my word above

all things.

So, boy, it is a—man, you're treading on some mighty thin ice when you start putting words in God's

mouth that he did not say.

And this conference that I mentioned first at Grace Life Church of Annville,

Pennsylvania, once again, it's held April 28th through the 30th.

That's a Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

On Friday and Saturday, the church is providing a free lunch as well.

And if you want more details, go to Justin Peters' website, justinpeters .org, and

click on events.

And if you would like, you can also go to the Grace Life Church of Annville, Pennsylvania's

website, gracelifepa .org, gracelifepa .org.

And hopefully I will remember to announce that toward the end of the program.

Now, the other conference that I mentioned, always so excited to

attend this conference, it's the G3 Conference to be held in Atlanta,

Georgia, the G3 National Conference, from Thursday, September 21st

through Saturday, September 23rd, on the sovereignty of God.

And you are one of many speakers.

The roster at these conferences is always mind -blowing, and here's just some of them.

Vody Baucom, Steve Lawson, Paul Washer, Phil Johnson, James White,

Mike Riccardi, Ken Ham, Owen Strand, Josh Bice, James Coates,

who is the pastor in Canada that was arrested for refusing to shut down his worship services during the COVID crisis,

Scott Anuel, Virgil Walker, Darrell Bernard Harrison, Scott Brown, and a speaker for the ladies,

Susan Heck, and of course, my guest today, Justin Peters.

Are you aware yet?

I know that many times when I interview speakers at the G3 Conference, they don't know what

they're speaking on until very close to the date of the event.

So I don't know if that's the case with you, or I know that the conference is on the sovereignty of God, as I've already mentioned,

but is there a specific theme under that umbrella that you are speaking on?

I do not yet know, Chris.

Okay.

I don't know.

I sure don't.

In fact, I want to call them and talk to the guys and ask them if they have any idea yet.

I have some ideas rolling around in my head, things that I would like to do, but yeah, as of today, I

do not know.

Well, I'm sure it's going to be profound when coming through you as a vessel of

God, no matter what the topic is.

I'm sure Josh Bice will come up with just the perfect sermon for you, and

I always love hearing Josh Bice, too.

He is not as globally known as some of these figures on the roster, but he is an

extremely powerful and gifted preacher.

I always love hearing him preach.

So if anybody wants to register for this, do yourself a favor

and do me a favor.

Go to g3min .org, G -3 -M -I -N .org.

Click on events and scroll down to the sovereignty of God, and if you're registering, enter the

promo code for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, which will give you a 30 discount.

This will help you and me because the more people who register using my

promo code discount, the more likely the G3 ministries

will continue to advertise with me every year.

So use the promo code G -3 -I -S -I -R, which stands for Iron Sharpens Iron

Radio.

G -3 -I -S -I -R, and you'll get 30 % off the registration fee.

So I will be repeating that later.

In fact, you'll be hearing ads voiced by my dear friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries

during this program, and he is, as I said, one of the speakers there as well.

Well, let's, before we go to our break, get a definition of who

is the Holy Spirit.

What must be believed by a faithful Christian about the

identity of the third person of the Godhead, of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit?

Well, first and foremost, as Christians, we must and do believe

that He is God.

The Holy Spirit is the third person of the triune Godhead.

He is as much and as fully God as is God the Father, as is God the Son.

He is the third co -equal person of the triune Godhead.

We see the Holy Spirit.

He was present and active at the act of creation itself.

We see that in Genesis chapter 1.

We see that in Psalm 33 and other places as well.

And one of the clearest texts in the New Testament that described the Holy Spirit as God

is Acts chapter 5.

It's kind of one of the most concise ones there.

This is when Ananias and Sapphira sold a piece of their property, and

they said they were going to give the money to the church and benefit the believers

there in the gospel efforts.

But they held some of the price of their sale back for themselves, and Peter

knew of this.

And so Peter, this is Acts chapter 5, verses 3 through 4.

Peter went to Ananias, and he said, Why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy

Spirit?

And then concluded in verse 4, I don't have it in front of me, but I believe it's verse 4.

He says, You have not lied to men, but to God.

So you see the connection there.

Why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit?

You have not lied to men, but to God.

So a very clear, very clear

statement of the deity of the Holy Spirit.

So that is first and foremost what we must believe about him, is that he is God, very

God.

Amen, and that's a good place for us to go to our first commercial break.

If anybody would like to ask your own question of Justin Peters on the doctrine of the Holy Spirit,

or on any other theological area, but we do prefer as many questions as possible being focused on the

doctrine of the Holy Spirit.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you disagree with your pastors or your denomination

over something involving our discussion today, and you don't want to identify yourself.

You might even be the pastor, and you disagree with your fellow elders or your denomination over

something that we say today.

Whatever the case is, we understand things like that would compel you to remain anonymous.

But if it's a general question, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and country of residence.

We'll be right back with Justin Peters after these messages, so don't go away.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I

are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia, again, for the G3 National Conference.

That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd, on a theme that I have been preaching,

teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott

Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

And there's more great news.

Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 discount off the registration

fee.

Go to g3min .org, that's g3min .org, and enter promo

code G3ISIR.

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Chris Arnson and I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd at the G3

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you're there.

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We're now back with Justin Peters, our guest today, the founder of Justin Peters Ministries.

We are discussing the doctrine of the Holy Spirit, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email

address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

Chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

Give us your first name, at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

You've already established the biblical truth before the commercial break that the Holy

Spirit is God, and that would imply that the

common false notion of individuals, even some that profess to be Christians,

even some within evangelical churches and denominations, they may not say this

in a creedal sense or in a doctrinal sense, but they very often speak of the Holy Spirit as if it

is the power of God and a force of God and not a person of the Godhead.

Am I right?

Isn't that something that you have encountered commonly, and isn't that dead wrong?

Yes, Chris, that is correct, and that is dead wrong.

In fact, one of the notable examples, well, I mean, this is common in the charismatic movement, but

Benny Hinn, for example, how he slays people in the Spirit and he gets his jacket and waves his jacket at people and

yells fire at them, and he pretends to wield the Holy Spirit around

like a lightsaber almost.

I mean, he uses it to slay people and, quote -unquote, slay them in the Spirit.

And when you think about what he's supposedly doing, literally throwing,

ostensibly, the Holy Spirit of God at people, yeah, that reduces him

to a thing.

That reduces the Holy Spirit to a thing, to a force.

You know, it's such a belittling and demeaning of the Holy Spirit,

but he is a person.

You can't wield him at will.

In fact, he himself has will, and I'd like to deal with that a little bit.

The Holy Spirit of God is a person.

He's not a third of God.

He is fully God, and he is a person.

The Holy Spirit can be grieved.

We see this in Ephesians 4, verse 30.

Paul says, do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God.

You can't grieve a force.

You can't grieve an inanimate object.

You can't grieve a non -sentient being.

But the Holy Spirit can be grieved.

Why?

Because he's a person.

The Holy Spirit has intellect.

1 Corinthians 2, verses 10 through 11.

Again, Paul writing, but to us God revealed them through the Spirit, through the Holy Spirit,

for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.

For who among men knows the depths of a man except the Spirit of the man which is in him?

Even so, the depths of God no one knows except the Spirit of God,

the Holy Spirit.

So he has intellect.

He knows things.

In fact, he knows all things.

He's omniscient.

He has a will.

1 Corinthians chapter 12, verse 11.

But one in the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just

as he wills.

So he has volition.

He has will.

Of course, that verse is talking about the spiritual gifts.

The Holy Spirit speaks.

Acts chapter 13, verse 2.

The Holy Spirit speaking here very clearly, I might add, set apart for me Barnabas and

Saul for the work to which I have called them.

Notice the clarity.

Notice the crystal clear clarity with which the Holy Spirit speaks.

In stark contrast to what you hear today from the vast majority of the evangelical

world when they say some things like, well, I think the Lord might be trying to tell us,

said no one in the Bible ever.

You don't see that kind of language anywhere.

Yeah, like what was commonly, and I'm assuming still is commonly seen

on the 700 Club, where you have Pat Robertson or another

host kind of getting the signal of the Holy Spirit jammed up by

maybe competing radio and TV signals because you have Pat Robertson saying,

there's a listener, I think he has a lump on either his left

or right lung.

I believe this is a cancerous tumor.

I mean, what are you talking about?

If this is the Holy Spirit, there's no fuzziness.

I mean, what has a prophet of God in the Bible ever spoken with such fuzziness and uncertainty?

Yeah, exactly right.

Exactly right, Chris.

Yeah, the Holy Spirit is not unclear when he speaks.

In Scripture, when God speaks, he speaks with crystal clear clarity.

There's no ambiguity, there's nobody.

Can you imagine Moses saying, well, you know, I think the Lord was trying to tell me such and such.

Or Abraham, when God told Abraham to go sacrifice his son Isaac.

Can you imagine that conversation with Sarah before they left if he was anything but unclear?

Sarah, I know this is going to sound weird, but I really think God is telling me to

take Isaac up to this mountain and offer him as a sacrifice.

I can't be sure, but I think he is.

So, you know, I'm going to go with my feelings here.

You know, no.

Or even painting the blood of the sacrificed lamb on the

doorposts when that Passover day came.

And the firstborn son in the home would have been

killed if they didn't do that.

And you're telling your family, I think I've got to go outside and maybe paint some blood on here.

I'm not really 100 % sure.

Right, yeah.

I mean, yeah, exactly, exactly, Chris.

Or Noah telling his family, you know, guys, I know this is going to sound crazy, and I

can't be 100 sure, but I think God wants us to build a big ark,

you know, 500 feet long, 50 -something feet high.

And I think he's going to flood the entire earth.

And so they start building this ark for about 120 years, probably.

Can you imagine, at any point, Noah being anything but unclear about what God told him to do?

You know, imagine, like, 60 years into this project, you know, the ark's half -built.

Well, I don't know.

Maybe I was wrong.

Maybe I heard God wrong.

So...

So some of the other things that we must get right about the Holy Spirit, and I'm sure

you would agree, is that the Holy Spirit is co -equal

and co -eternal with the Father and the Son.

And that does not mean that everything that the Father and the Son

accomplished in Heaven and on this earth, that everything the

Father and the Son did, the Holy Spirit did as well.

It does not mean that, obviously, because, for example, only Jesus Christ

died on the cross for the propitiation of the sins of

His people.

The Father didn't do that.

The Spirit didn't do that.

But they were all in complete harmony in their agreement of an

orchestration of that event.

That's right.

That's right, Chris.

That's right.

God the Father is not God the Son.

God the Son is not God the Holy Spirit.

God the Holy Spirit is not God the Father, and yet they are co -equal

persons within the one Godhead.

But you're exactly right.

They do have different roles, different functions, but they have a unity of

will, unity of mind.

And so our finite minds, our fallen finite minds can't fully comprehend

that, and yet that is what Scripture teaches.

So He is a person.

The Holy Spirit is a person.

In fact, read through the Gospel of John, John chapter 14, John chapter

16.

Jesus speaks a lot of the Holy Spirit there, and He refers to Him,

Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as a He, not as an It.

John 14, verse 16 through 17, He says, Jesus speaking, and I will ask the

Father, and He will give you another advocate, another helper, that He

may be with you forever, the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not

see Him or know Him.

It doesn't say It.

It says Him.

You know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

John 16, 13 through 14, Jesus speaking again, but when He,

the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth, for He will not speak from

Himself, but whatever He hears, He will speak, and He will disclose to you what is

to come.

He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine

and will disclose it to you.

So over and over and over, Jesus is referring to the Holy Spirit as a He,.

Not an It.

He is a person.

The Holy Spirit is as much a person as is Jesus, as is the Father.

Well, we have an anonymous listener for you, and the anonymous listener says, I'm

remaining anonymous because I have never been satisfied by the answers from my own

elders in the church where I'm a member in regards to this question that I am

sure you have heard a million times already.

The question is, what exactly is meant by the sin of

blasphemy against the Holy Spirit as stated by Jesus in Matthew 12,

31 -32, and Mark 3, 28 -29, where Jesus said,

I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, men, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not

be forgiven.

Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit

will not be forgiven, either in this age or the age to come.

Very heavy words there.

And there have been even men who agree on the vast majority of

theology and doctrine and practice who have disagreed over exactly what this means.

But if you could give your opinion or understanding of this.

Sure, Chris.

Yeah, there is kind of a range of opinions on exactly what Jesus meant here.

But broadly speaking, I believe that the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is

ascribing to the Holy Spirit actual works of Satan.

And that is what the Pharisees were doing.

That is the height of rejection of God.

And Jesus said that that sin will not be forgiven.

In other words, basically what it boils down to is that a

Christian will not and cannot do such a thing.

Anyone who would do that is clearly not one of God's sheep, not even a lost sheep

who has not yet been called to the shepherd, per John 10, verse 27.

So, yeah, that is not something that a Christian can commit.

And I tell people, and I've had a few people over the years ask me, they've said things,

variations of, well, Justin, I'm afraid I may have committed this sin.

And my first word to them, if you're even afraid that you've committed this sin, then you haven't.

Because if you had, you wouldn't even be worried about it.

So the very fact that you're concerned is self -evident proof that you haven't.

You haven't done that.

Now, I have heard, perhaps it's not something that I have frequently heard, but I

have definitely heard, in the past especially, the charge of guilt

for this sin against cessationists hurled at us by some

Charismatics and Pentecostals when we would dare question the authenticity

of one of their prophecies, one of their divine utterances, so -called,

one of their alleged healings, anything that they claim came directly

from the Holy Spirit, when we say, well, I don't believe that that actually did come from the Holy Spirit.

Ah!

You're committing the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

In fact, if you could respond to that when we return from the midway break,

because we're going into the midway break now, please be patient with us, folks.

Please use this time wisely.

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We do have several statements from someone.

Actually, I forgot, I did not finish where I was going before the commercial break.

I will get back to this email I have received from Mike in

Monroe,.

New York.

In a moment,.

But let me just remind our listeners that we would like questions from our listeners about the

topic that we are addressing.

Questions for my guest, Justin Peters, not teaching, not sending in an email that is

teaching us, but I will nonetheless read this email from Mike in a moment.

Continuing in the thread, I began before the break of saying

that there have been in my own personal life

acquaintances, possibly even friends who are charismatic or Pentecostal who have

said on occasion that cessationists have been guilty of

blaspheming the Holy Spirit if they question the authenticity of some kind of a

miraculous sign that has been uttered by the charismatic or Pentecostal

individual.

Let's just say for an example, a Pentecostal who claims to

be getting some kind of a divine word, extra -biblical, divine

revelation, word of knowledge, he says to a person, the Lord is telling me that

you are going to get a substantial raise at your job next week, so you don't have to worry about those financial

problems.

Next week comes by and the guy does get a job, get a raise, exactly

as the person said.

It might even be the exact dollar amount that the person allegedly predicted.

Then the cessationist says, well, either that was some kind of a

trick, the person had inside information about this person's job, or it was

the power of the devil that revealed this to him or her.

Then the charismatic will claim that that refutation

of the alleged word of knowledge is blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

Where do you stand on something like that, a scenario like that?

Sure, Chris.

My first thought is that the Bible itself tells us to test all things.

1 Thessalonians 5 .21, test all things, hold fast to that which is good.

I would be derelict in my Christian duties not to test some

alleged prophetic word or word of knowledge or whatever.

We must test these things.

It is actually the enemy of the truth, the enemy of the gospel, the enemy of true Christianity

who would say, don't test me, don't question me.

That's what a wolf does, not a sheep.

It's laughable on its face to make such a ridiculous assertion.

The Bereans tested the Apostle Paul, Acts 17, verse 11, they searched the scriptures

to see if these things were really so.

Anytime you hear a Christian, a preacher, say, don't question

me, don't question my authority, don't question what I teach, that's not a red flag.

That's a red banner.

That's a red billboard saying run from that person.

It's just a farcical charge to say something like that.

Now, let me ask a question that has often entered

into my mind.

Is it possible that just as God gave

permission to Satan to harass and plague

Job in all those ways that are recorded in Scripture, everything

that happened negative to Job was from the hand of Satan, but

done with permission from God?

Satan asked God permission each and every step of the way.

He knew he had to.

On the reverse of that, is it possible that there are

self -professed miracle workers, exorcists and things like

that who are actually performing miracles or that God has permitted them to

perform miracles, even though these men and women are charlatans, are lost?

Like, for instance, when we read that most terrifying series of

verses in recorded Scripture, most terrifying for anybody

who claims to be a Christian, Matthew 7, 21, verses

23, not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one

who does the will of my Father who is in heaven will enter.

Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your

name cast out demons and in your name perform many miracles?

And then I will declare to them, I never knew you, leave me, you who practice lawlessness.

Now, Jesus never said in that declaration that they did

not prophesy, that they did not cast out demons, and that they did not perform many miracles.

So, the question is, were those miracles done by the power of Satan or were they done by

God as he is just permitting these charlatans

and evildoers who claim to be Christians to perform these miracles?

Yeah, so those, and you're absolutely right.

Matthew chapter 7, 21 through 23, I think truly is some of the most terrifying,

some of the most terrifying verses in all of God's word.

And I believe that those people there who cried out, Lord, Lord, I think that is, I think they were

genuinely surprised to find themselves in the position that they did.

I don't think that was a feigned thing.

I think they were really surprised.

So, they at least thought that they had the ability to prophesy and

cast out demons and perform signs and wonders.

I think Benny Hinn, at some level, thinks he's really doing the Lord's work.

Paul makes an interesting statement in 2 Timothy 3, verse 13.

He says, evil men and imposters will grow from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

Deceiving and being deceived.

So, both of those dynamics can be at work in the same person.

False teachers actively deceive people.

Benny Hinn does.

And yet, there is a sense in which they are themselves being deceived.

And so, you can find both of those at work in the same person.

Now, more broadly speaking, yes, I do.

Demons are real.

Satan is real.

And they do have power.

They can manufacture fake signs and

wonders.

They're obviously not from God, but yes, they can do supernatural things, if you will.

The Egyptian magicians, up to a point, could reproduce the

same miracles that Moses and Aaron were doing there in the Egyptian court, up to a

point.

And pretty impressive, even up to that point as well.

So, Satan does have some power.

Demons do have power.

Now, they only, as you rightly pointed out in Job 1, we know that they

only have the power that God allows them to have.

Satan is on a leash, and God is holding the other end of that short leash.

I can't remember which one of the reformers said this, but he quipped that even the devil is God's devil.

So, yeah.

Now, in the Word of Faith, NAR movement, the vast, vast, vast majority of the

supposed miracles, signs and wonders that are taking place or being alleged, they're fake.

I mean, they're not even real on a demonic level.

The vast majority of them are fake.

Psychosomatic stuff, peer pressure, group dynamics stuff, mind over body,

that's all it is.

A very small percentage of some of the activity that you see in these Word of Faith

NAR circles are supernatural in that they do have a demonic

origin.

I believe that a small percentage of them are demonic in origin, but none of

it is of God.

Oh, so you're saying that a false teacher cannot perform a genuine miracle that

God permits that person to perform at all?

Like, for instance, if somebody claims to be a healer, and the person is an unregenerate person,

they may be a charlatan or just deceive themselves, and they lay hands on somebody that has

cancer, and it is verified that that person, after medical tests are done, the next day,

the next week, whatever, they are cancer -free.

Are you saying that that could never happen as far as a miracle of God by the hands of an unregenerate

person?

Because God does and has allowed people to be deceived

for His own purposes.

He has allowed them to receive a delusion, and so could this

be another way that He is doing that?

But I'm just asking questions here.

I'm not speaking affirmatively.

Sure. Yeah.

No, I would say that no false teacher would perform any kind of

true miracle of God.

God would not use a false teacher to perform a true work of His.

No, because gifts are only given to the sheep.

Goats don't have spiritual gifts.

Now, I will say, we do know from Scripture, it's very clear in the Gospels, that

demons do, at least on occasion, have the power to inflict sickness.

We see that in several places through the Gospels.

So, it would be logical to kind of follow the logic here.

If I were Satan, and I wanted to do something to divert a person's attention away from

the Gospel and get them to focus on signs and wonders and that kind of thing, I think it

would be a very logical thing for Satan or one of his demons

to inflict some kind of a disease, some kind of a malady, and

then simply withdraw from that person.

And then by the simple withdrawal of this demonic activity, that person

kind of naturally recovers.

And that is alleged to be, oh, look at this real miracle.

I really am a man of God.

See what I did?

And that gets people to flock after this particular false teacher.

I absolutely believe that that does happen.

But that's not an active work of God.

That is simply the removal of some demonic activity to divert people's attention away from the Gospel.

And so, I think that does happen.

Does that make sense?

Yes.

And our listener in Monroe, New York, Michael, he originally sent us

a fairly lengthy teaching lesson via email.

And when he heard my loving and mild correction of that, because we want questions, he

submitted a question.

So, thank you, Michael.

And I hope you were not offended by what I had to say.

But we try to keep our listeners' participation to questions, just like when I have

arranged debates.

And when we used to hand people a microphone, and even when I used to have a live call -in show rather

than an email -in show, very often there would be people who would not ask questions, but they would give

very lengthy teaching lessons and lectures.

And that's not what we want from the listeners.

I have guests for that.

But anyway, Michael in Monroe, New York, says,.

If what practicing charismatics do is not of the Holy Spirit, then what

spirit is it?

I am thinking about those who claim they have the gift of tongues.

Yeah.

When I hear a charismatic claiming to speak in tongues, and they are doing something that

sounds like they may be speaking in tongues, I am reminded of the old C

.S. Lewis adage about Jesus.

You can't say he was a great prophet unless you believe he is truly God in the

flesh.

You can't say that he was a wonderful human being if he is not

God in the flesh because of what he claimed about himself.

And summarized, Lewis said that Jesus was either a lunatic, a liar, or

a lord.

I think the same thing about folks who are speaking in tongues.

If it's not from God, which we cessationists don't believe it is today, it's

either something that they have forced themselves to do out

of repetition and trying to appease others around them, they mimic other

people around them, or they are truly mentally ill, or they do have a demonic spirit

that is making them do this.

So what is your thought, or what are your thoughts, on people who speak

in tongues today that we would consider to be gibberish?

Sure, Chris.

Well, in short, the vast majority of what

you see in charismatic movement speaking in tongues is simply the only spirit that it's from is the

spirit of man.

It's something that you learn how to do.

Speaking in gibberish is just a learned behavior, and it's practiced in a number of other

pagan religions as well, Hindus, some Muslims even speak in tongues, Buddhists

speak in tongues, and they do it in the exact same way, the exact same way that charismatics do.

So I don't think it's demonic, I just think it's a learned behavior.

And I can't tell you how many former charismatics that have come up to me over the years

and have told me that they used to be charismatic, they used to speak in tongues, but then they

became convinced of the cessationist position.

They are now card -carrying cessationists like I am, but guess what?

They still have the ability to do.

They can still speak in tongues.

In fact, I would commend to people a YouTube channel named Digging Deeper

by Andreas Wieget, that's how it's pronounced, but we spell it W -I

-G -E -T, but Andreas Wieget, he's from Switzerland, and he's a former charismatic,

now he's a cessationist, but he's got a number of videos on his YouTube channel about tongues, and he demonstrates how he

can still speak in tongues even though he's a cessationist.

So it's just a learned behavior.

The genuine gift of tongues, Chris, was the ability not to speak in gibberish, but the ability

to speak in a known human language, just not known to the one speaking it.

It would be like me instantly being able to speak fluent Swahili.

It's a known human language, it's just not known to me.

And there was a purpose for the gift of tongues, it was a sign of judgment against unbelieving Israel, and that's a whole other

issue probably way off in the weeds for our purposes here, but what you see charismatics do

today with speaking in tongues, this gibberish that they talk in, that bears

zero resemblance to the genuine gift of languages, which is

really what we should call that gift.

Instead of the gift of tongues, we should call it the gift of languages, because in the Greek, it's the word glosa, and the word

glosa in Biblical Greek and in extra secular Greek, if you will,

the word glosa only has two possible meanings.

It can either mean the physical organ inside our mouths, or it can

mean a known human language.

That's the only two ways that glosa is ever used.

So we should say the gift of languages rather than the gift of tongues.

Kind of long answer to the question, but I hope that cleared it up some.

Yes, thank you very much, Mike.

And let's see, we have a listener, Joseph in South

Central Pennsylvania, who asks, in your opinion,

is it possible for a Christian to be deceived into believing

in modalism and still be a genuine Christian who goes to heaven after death?

I've been asked that many times myself, and I don't know if you agree with

me, but I put people who are modalists or oneness Pentecostals or anti -Trinitarians

into two different groups.

There is the average person who is deceived by a teacher about it and

merely mimics those falsehoods, and there is the teacher himself who

is on a crusade to refute the biblical

doctrine of the Trinity and tear it down and to cast doubt on the authenticity

of Christians who believe in the Trinity.

I think that there are two different categories there, and that would also be with some other issues.

In other words, I would be more certain that a person is lost if they are a studied teacher

who is on a mission to refute the Trinity than somebody who is clumsy in their theology over it

and may spew a modalist description of what the Trinity is.

What are your thoughts on that?

I do agree with that, Chris, and I would just add a little bit to it.

I would say for the layperson, if you will, who

is just not theologically astute and they've heard modalism and so they kind

of believe it on some level but don't really understand what it is, I believe that that person

could be a true Christian.

I would say a very immature Christian, a very young Christian, but my hesitation here

would come in this.

I would say that once that young believer is shown the truth from Scripture

and they see from Scripture where it's wrong, then I would fully expect this person, if he is a

true Christian, then he would abandon modalism and embrace the truth.

That would be the only thing that I would add to it.

I think a true Christian, a very young Christian, could just for various reasons, being

poorly taught or whatever, initially espouse that at some level,

but if you're truly indwelt by the Holy Spirit and once you see the truth from Scripture, then

you're going to abandon the error and embrace the truth.

Just for the sake of those who've never heard that term modalism, am I correct in saying

that this is a teaching of anti -Trinitarians, Unitarians, and I don't

mean necessarily the left -wing Protestant denomination,

apostate denomination, that only believes in one

God without there being different persons in the Godhead, but

this is typically a view that will say that in

contradiction to there being three distinct

co -equal and co -eternal persons of the Godhead, that

God manifests Himself at different times and seasons as

one or the other of those things that are identified as the three persons of the Godhead by

Trinitarians.

He has been God the Father, and now He is Jesus Christ,

and some of those would even view the Holy Spirit in a way that we referred to earlier as

just the power of Jesus.

But am I correct in the way I'm describing modalism?

Yes, Chris, you are.

And as the name implies, it's the belief that God changes modes.

He changes manifestations, changes modes, hence modalism.

And sometimes He has the Father hat on, sometimes He has the Son hat on, sometimes He has the Holy

Spirit hat on.

And so, to paraphrase John MacArthur here, you have a lot of problems with that from Scripture,

not the least of which is that Jesus' baptism, and John MacArthur said, boy, he's

changing hats real fast there because you hear the voice from Heaven, the Father, you see the

Son physically on Earth, and the Holy Spirit descending in

the form of a dove.

So you have all three persons there at the same time.

But yes, that is a fair representation.

And T .D. Jakes, by the way, is modalistic in his...

And T .D. Jakes is someone who is not ignorant.

He has studied this.

He rejects Trinitarianism, and so we must consider T .D. Jakes as someone

outside the camp, not a believer.

But he is doing it, he is rejecting the Trinity more in an ambiguous and a stealth

manner, is he not?

He doesn't come right out and say, I do not believe in the Trinity.

He says, I don't like to use language that's not in the Bible, so don't force language into my

own lips.

That's basically the way he tries to get around it, isn't it?

It is, Chris, and he's the quintessential wolf in sheep's clothing.

But if you go to his website right now, go to the Potter's House website, Google it, find it, go to

their doctrinal statement right now, you will see that this language says, we believe in one God in

three manifestations, not persons, manifestations.

That's very intentional, very modalistic language there.

So, yeah.

Yeah, and we have to go to our final break.

It's going to be a lot briefer or more brief.

I can't remember which is grammatically correct.

Then the other breaks, if you have a question that you have not yet submitted, please submit it as

quickly as you can because we are rapidly running out of time.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com is the email address.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I

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That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I have been preaching, teaching,

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We're now back with my guest, Justin Peters, and Justin, I

would like you to address the final work of the Holy Spirit that he does that is often overlooked

and dismissed even in our own Reformed circles.

Yes, Chris.

One of the most important and sadly overlooked roles of the Holy Spirit in our lives as

believers is his work of sanctification.

He grows us in holiness, Chris.

He conforms us into the image of Christ.

And those whom God saves, he also sanctifies without exception.

And whether we're talking about Word of Faith or NAR or kind of the more

easy believism forms of the gospel, pray this prayer, never examine yourself, or if you're

talking about some in our own theologically Reformed

camps, you know, high sovereignty, high view of the sovereignty of God, there's a whole wing, sadly, Chris, of

people in my own theological camp, more Reformed, that have

a very low view of sanctification.

They espouse all the right things, claim a high view of Scripture, high view of the sovereignty of God, and yet

they are far, far too chummy with the world.

They seem to glory and flaunt at least what they perceive to be their Christian liberties.

I've seen some of these pastors use profanity, even in the pulpit.

They boast about their whatever alcohol they're drinking and stuff like that.

And they're just too chummy, too cozy with the world and with

sin, quite frankly.

And one of the marks of a maturing Christian is that as we mature in Christ, we have

an increasing sensitivity to sin, an increasing disdain of sin.

There should be a decreasing pattern of sin in our lives, an increasing pattern of holiness.

And that is one of his most important roles in our lives, is he grows us

in Christ.

He sanctifies us, so we should be growing in our sanctification, in our

personal holiness.

And we should have what Paul describes as a godly sorrow over sin in 2 Corinthians 7.

It's not that we as Christians don't sin, we do.

But if you're truly a Christian and you sin, it should grieve you.

Your sin should grieve you, because we understand that our sin grieves God.

And so I would commend that to people.

That is one of the most precious works of God's Holy Spirit, is he grows us in

personal holiness.

And we have time for one last question, which would require a brief answer.

An anonymous listener says, How do you respond to Charismatics and Pentecostals who make

claims that Baptists and other Cessationists do not believe in the Holy

Ghost, or that they are not

Spirit -filled?

Yes, I have heard both.

In my journey of searching biblical truth before I became a Reformed Christian, I had

visited many Charismatic and Pentecostal churches, and sometimes in casual conversation,

and even sometimes from a pulpit, I've heard them say, you know those Baptists down the street?

They don't believe in the Holy Spirit.

Or they'll say, they're not Spirit -filled.

Now obviously, I don't think that necessarily they're trying to imply that doctrinally we deny the

existence of the third person of the Trinity.

But it's still sloppy and dangerous language that is really slander, isn't it?

It is, Chris.

Real quickly, no.

It's ironic that those people would look at a Cessationist and say, you don't believe in the Holy Spirit, you have a low view.

To the contrary.

As a Cessationist, I cede no ground in my view of the Holy Spirit to those in the

hyper -Charismatic world.

Because why is it that the most brazen heretics, the most

prolific false prophets, the people who most exploit the poor and the sick and the widows for personal

financial gain, these prosperity preachers, the people who put words in God's mouth that He did not say, why is it that all

these people find a welcome home in the movement, the Charismatic movement, that claims

to have a high view of Scripture, and yet it is that very movement that is the welcoming home to the most

brazen charlatans, hucksters, false prophets, and heretics

that have ever brought reproach upon the name of Christ.

So it is not we who have a low view of the Holy Spirit, it is they who have a low view of the Holy Spirit of God.

Well, we're out of time.

Don't forget about the two events where Justin Peters will be speaking.

First of all, the Grace Life Church of Anvil, Pennsylvania, is featuring Justin on the 28th

through the 30th of April.

And go to justinpeters .org and click on events.

And then don't forget about the Sovereignty of God Conference, the G3 Conference, September 21st through the 23rd

in Atlanta, Georgia.

Go to g3men .org, g3men .org, use promo code

G3ISIR for a 30 discount.

And I thank you so much, Justin, for being such an extraordinary guest as you always are.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you

are a sinner.