April 20, 2023 Show with Justin Peters on “The Doctrine of the Holy Spirit”

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 20th day of April, 2023.

I am thrilled to have back on the program one of my very favorite guests to interview.

He's also become a dear friend over the years, and his name should not be a stranger to the vast majority of my listening audience.

His name is Justin Peters, evangelist, conference speaker, and founder of Justin Peters Ministries.

Today, we're going to be addressing the doctrine of the Holy Spirit. We're going to be discussing how and why many

Charismatics and Pentecostals get the doctrine of the Holy Spirit all wrong, or at least wrong in many ways.

And it's not only isolated to Charismatics and Pentecostals, but even among cessationist evangelicals who misunderstand this very important person of the

Godhead and doctrine. We're also going to be discussing two upcoming events where Justin Peters will be speaking, the

Grace Life Church Conference in Annville, Pennsylvania, and also the 2023

G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia. I intend to be at both of those events, and I will certainly be in the

Atlanta area this fall for the G3 Conference, where I always man an exhibitor's booth for Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Justin Peters. Chris, it's an honor to be with you, brother.

Thank you so much for having me back on. Oh, it's a thrill to have you back on. And let me right away give our listeners our email address.

If you have any questions for Justin Peters, you can ask him a wide variety of questions on theology and things relevant to the

Scriptures, things about his personal testimony and ministry. But we're going to be focusing on the doctrine of the

Holy Spirit, so we would hope that many, if not most, of those questions involve that very important topic.

First of all, Justin, before we get into the discussion on the doctrine of the

Holy Spirit, why don't you tell our listeners, for the rare number of people listening that may be unfamiliar with your ministry on this program, tell our listeners about Justin Peters Ministries.

Sure, Chris. My name is Justin Peters, and my ministry is very uncreatively named,

Justin Peters Ministries. And I'm a full -time evangelist. God has graciously opened up this ministry to me.

My first love and commitment is to expositional preaching, preaching God's Word verse by verse.

But what I'm most well -known for is engaging the Word of Faith Movement and New Apostolic Reformation.

So these are twin movements that are kind of better known, broadly speaking, as the

Health and Wealth Gospel, the Name and Acclaim it Gospel, the Prosperity Gospel, the doctrine that says it is always

God's will for a Christian to be wealthy. It's always God's will for a Christian to be physically healed.

You should never be sick, or if you do get sick, then physical healing is guaranteed, as long as you have enough faith, as long as you make the right positive confessions, as long as you sow enough seed into some minister's ministry, which, in other words, give him money, him or her money, and in return,

God will grant you a harvest. Some of the more well -known names of this movement,

Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Jesse Duplantis, Andrew Womack, Joseph Prince, Joel Osteen, some of those names, or some of the more well -known,

Joyce Meyer as well. It's a heretical movement. It's got heretical theology.

It's not just health and wealth, but it is indeed a different gospel, a very different view of God, a different view of Christ and the

Atonement that results in an overemphasis on health and wealth and making promises that the

Bible simply does not make. So that's kind of what I'm known for, but that's not my only interest.

I teach on Roman Catholicism and various issues and have written a book, working on another one, and I have a

YouTube channel, so that's kind of me in a nutshell. Yes, just to throw in a couple more of the shocking, blasphemous heresies of the

Word of Faith movement, not that everybody who identifies with the Word of Faith movement believes in these things, but they are prominent in that movement.

One is that Jesus Christ actually became, according to them, a demonic entity while hanging on the cross on Calvary, and that he became the first born -again man in hell after being tortured by Satan and the demons.

So, utterly shocking, obviously not only blasphemous, but a total misunderstanding and a false concept of what hell is.

It seems to be borrowing from Dante's Inferno, where Satan and the demons are ruling in hell, and they are there torturing

Jesus, when in reality, hell was created as a torture chamber for the devil and his angels, and obviously the reprobate, those who never come to Christ while they are living on this earth, they will be cast in there, in that torture chamber for eternity with the devil and his angels, but it primarily was created for them, the devil and his angels, and yet the

Word of Faith movement seems to have Satan and his demons ruling there. Yes.

I don't think I need to say any more about that, but I think

I've shocked many of our listeners enough who didn't know that. Welt, please tell us about your book, the new book that's coming out.

Yeah, Chris, so my seminar on the Word of Faith movement is entitled

Clouds Without Water, and I take that from a reference in the book of Jude, verse 12.

That's one of the ways that Jude describes false teachers, is as clouds without water, and so that's the title of my seminar, and this book basically is the book version of my seminar,

Clouds Without Water. So I am working on that. I've actually already got kind of a condensed version of it that's published and out already in other languages, though.

It's not in English yet, but it's a short book by design, so we can print as many as possible and get out into some of these countries, distribute them as widely as possible.

It's already out in Russian, I believe Ukrainian, and Chinese.

So it's not yet available in English, but Lord willing, my English version will be longer.

So I'm going to take this shorter version, put more meat on the bone, so to speak, and that will be the

English version of Clouds Without Water that, best I can tell, either later this year or first part of next year will be out.

Well, I'm excited about that. That was the theme of your address to the pastors gathered at my

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon. What was it, like three years ago, perhaps?

I think that's about right. Was it pre -COVID? I believe it was. Yes, it was pre -COVID.

Yeah, so it had to be at least three, maybe going on four years ago. Yeah, but I remember how riveted the men were to your presentation, and even heard very positive feedback from charismatic pastors in attendance who were obviously not in the

Word of Faith movement extreme, but they were men that even recognized as charismatics that these things are wicked teachings that the

Word of Faith movement capitalizes on. And if anybody wants to keep updated on that book and also about where Justin Peters will be speaking and everything else you need to know about Justin Peters, go to justinpeters .org,

justinpeters .org. One of those events where he is speaking is something that I mentioned just a few minutes ago briefly.

He is speaking at Grace Life Church in Anvil, Pennsylvania, and that's going to be

April 20th through the 30th. It's a free event, and tell us about this exciting event.

Yeah, Chris, I'm looking forward to that. You gave the name of the church and location there. This is a church that has

Dave Cunningham as its pastor. It's a church that's led by a biblical plurality of elders, which the

Bible prescribes and describes. But Dave Cunningham is kind of like the primary preaching pastor.

Yes, he was at my pastor's luncheon last week, along with Flip Michaels as well.

Yeah, Flip Michaels, he's another one of the elders there, a great, great guy. He's written a book, too, Five Half Truths, that I had the pleasure of endorsing for him.

Yes, I interviewed him on that, and several years ago, the publisher gave us 100 copies to give away at the pastor's luncheon.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a great little book, great little book. So, yeah, it's a great church.

I've been there before, really enjoyed my time there with them. I've been there twice before, just really good brothers.

And so if you're in the area or are up for a road trip, yeah, we would love to have you join us.

I think it'll be a profitable time. I am going to be speaking on the Holy Spirit, who

He is, what He does, what He doesn't do. And also,

I'm going to have another session on how God does and does not speak to us today. So, in other words, how to know the voice of God.

And so those two sessions are, you know, they're different, but they're very much related.

Yeah, in fact, that is one of the areas that I have become familiar with.

Cessationist pastors, even on occasion, will get that area wrong, even though they're cessationists.

Sometimes they will speak either before, during or after a sermon.

They will speak as if they are operating or functioning as charismatics, believing in new revelation from God, even though they would likely deny that.

But some of these men who are not even in the charismatic or Pentecostal camp will speak that way.

And I'm sure that's going to be refuted in your session on that.

Even the non -charismatic version of that. Correct, Chris.

And it's one of those things, I think, sometimes we're just careless in our lingo, careless in the terminology we use when we say things like, the

Lord told me so -and -so. And you're right, I've heard that even from cessationists. But it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, you need to be more careful with the words that you're using, because what you're implying there, you've entered some very, very deep waters.

So we need to be careful. If you say, the Lord spoke to me, then you need to have chapter and verse for that, because God speaks through and only through the scriptures today, not in still small voices or hunches or feelings or anything like that.

That's kind of a whole theology that, quite honestly, we've just created out of whole cloth, but simply is not supported in scripture.

Now, some people, a lot of people, actually do mean exactly what they say.

They do believe God speaks to them in a direct, quotable sense outside of scripture.

So they absolutely do mean that. But those of us in the cessationist camp,

I think sometimes they just get a little too careless with the terminology that they use.

And some of this stuff comes out of nothing more or less than pride.

And I'll give you an example of how I mean that. There will be sometimes, even with cessationists, a false humility over a sermon they preached, a book they wrote, a song they wrote.

And they will say, when someone gives them a compliment, a word of praise for what they've accomplished in this sermon, book, or song, or other thing, they will say, oh, no, don't thank me.

This was all of God. Every word is all of God.

Don't thank me at all. I'm just a vessel here. No, I'm sorry, pal.

You're exalting what you did, whether it be a sermon, book, or song.

You're exalting it to the level of scripture. So knock it off with your false humility. That's right.

That's right. I agree, Chris. I'm glad you said that. One example, when you're describing that, that pops into my mind is

Beth Moore. She wrote in her book, I don't have it in front of me, but I think it was When Godly People Do Ungodly Things.

I think that was a particular book that she wrote this. But she said, and if this isn't a direct quote, again,

I don't have it in front of me, but it's really, really close. She said, I did not write these words by simple preference.

I wrote them because had I not, the rocks in my yard would have cried out.

Yeah. And she said, I am simply the one who received this bug -eyed.

I remember that. She said, I sat there bug -eyed as she received this revelation from God. And so, yeah, what an audacious claim.

I mean, just absolutely false humility. That should be the quintessential example of false humility.

Yes. And also, when you were just describing that, I had another person pop into my head.

And it's very ironic, because most King James -only fundamentalists despise charismatic teaching and Pentecostalism.

And yet, a segment, not all, I have to be careful, there are many King James -only fundamentalists who do not at all associate or support the writing and teaching of Gail Riplinger.

But Gail Riplinger, she initially had as the author of her books on the cover

G .A. Riplinger, which in her description was the abbreviation for God and Riplinger.

Oh, wow. So, very strange indeed.

Oh, indeed. Yeah. And there's just no fear, Chris, seemingly nowadays in the vast majority of the evangelical world.

Sadly, there seems to be no fear of putting words in God's mouth that He did not say.

Man, people just take that so tritely, you know, to put words in God's mouth that He did not say.

But that's something that God holds very seriously. He takes it very seriously. Psalm 138, verse 2,

God said, I hold my name and my word above all things. So, boy, it is a, man, you're treading on some mighty thin ice when you start putting words in God's mouth that He did not say.

And this conference that I mentioned first at Grace Life Church of Annville, Pennsylvania, once again, it's held

April 28th through the 30th. That's a Friday, Saturday, Sunday. On Friday and Saturday, the church is providing a free lunch as well.

And if you want more details, go to Justin Peters' website, justinpeters .org, and click on events.

And if you would like, you can also go to the Grace Life Church of Annville, Pennsylvania's website, gracelifepa .org.

And hopefully, I will remember to announce that toward the end of the program.

Now, the other conference that I mentioned, always so excited to attend this conference, it's the

G3 Conference to be held in Atlanta, Georgia. The G3 National Conference from Thursday, September 21st through Saturday, September 23rd on the sovereignty of God.

And you are one of many speakers. The roster at these conferences is always mind -blowing, and here's just some of them.

Votie Baucom, Steve Lawson, Paul Washer, Phil Johnson, James White, Mike Riccardi, Ken Ham, Owen Strand, Josh Bice, James Coates, who is the pastor in Canada that was arrested for refusing to shut down his worship services during the

COVID crisis. Scott Anuel, Virgil Walker, Darrell Bernard Harrison, Scott Brown, and a speaker for the ladies,

Susan Heck. And of course, my guest today, Justin Peters. Are you aware yet?

I know that many times when I interview speakers at the G3 Conference, they don't know what they're speaking on until very close to the date of the event.

So I don't know if that's the case with you, or I know that the conference is on the sovereignty of God, as I've already mentioned.

But is there a specific theme under that umbrella that you are speaking on?

I do not yet know, Chris. I don't know. I sure don't.

In fact, I want to call them and talk to the guys and ask them if they have any idea yet.

I have some ideas rolling around in my head, things that I would like to do. But yeah, as of today,

I do not know. Well, I'm sure it's going to be profound when coming through you as a vessel of God, no matter what the topic is.

I'm sure Josh Bice will come up with just the perfect sermon for you.

And I always love hearing Josh Bice, too. He is not as globally known as some of these figures on the roster, but he is an extremely powerful and gifted preacher.

I always love hearing him preach. So if anybody wants to register for this, do yourself a favor and do me a favor.

Go to g3min .org, G -3 -M -I -N .org.

Click on events and scroll down to the sovereignty of God. And if you're registering, enter the promo code for Iron Trump and Zion Radio, which will give you a 30 % discount.

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So I will be repeating that later. In fact, you'll be hearing ads voiced by my dear friend

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries during this program. And he is, as I said, one of the speakers there as well.

Well, let's, before we go to our break, get a definition of who is the

Holy Spirit. What must be believed by a faithful Christian about the identity of the third person of the

Godhead of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit? Well, first and foremost, as Christians, we must and do believe that He is

God. The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Triune Godhead.

He is as much and as fully God as is God the Father, as is

God the Son. He is the third co -equal person of the Triune Godhead.

We see the Holy Spirit. He was present and active at the act of creation itself.

We see that in Genesis chapter 1. We see that in Psalm 33 and other places as well.

And one of the clearest texts in the New Testament that described the Holy Spirit as God is

Acts chapter 5. It's kind of one of the most concise ones there. This is when

Ananias and Sapphira sold a piece of their property. And they said they were going to give the money to the church and benefit the believers there in the gospel efforts.

But they held some of the price of their sale back for themselves. And Peter knew of this.

And so this is Acts chapter 5, verses 3 through 4. Peter went to Ananias and he said,

Why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit? And then concluded in verse 4,

I don't have it in front of me, but I believe it's verse 4. He says, You have not lied to men, but to God.

So you see the connection there. Why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit? You have not lied to men, but to God.

So a very clear, very clear statement of the deity of the

Holy Spirit. So that is first and foremost what we must believe about him.

That he is God. Very God. Amen. And that's a good place for us to go to our first commercial break.

If anybody would like to ask your own question of Justin Peters on the doctrine of the

Holy Spirit, or on any other theological area, but we do prefer as many questions as possible being focused on the doctrine of the

Holy Spirit. Our email address is ChrisArnson at gmail .com. ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you disagree with your pastors or your denomination over something involving our discussion today, and you don't want to identify yourself.

You might even be the pastor and you disagree with your fellow elders or your denomination over something that we say today.

Whatever the case is, we understand things like that would compel you to remain anonymous. But if it's a general question, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and country of residence.

We'll be right back with Justin Peters after these messages, so don't go away. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I have been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We're now back with Justin Peters, our guest today, the founder of Justin Peters Ministries.

We are discussing the doctrine of the Holy Spirit, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

Chrisarnzen at gmail .com. Give us your first name, at least, your city and state, and your country of residence. You've already established the biblical truth before the commercial break that the

Holy Spirit is God, and that would imply that the common false notion of individuals, even some that profess to be

Christians, even some within evangelical churches and denominations, they may not say this in a creedal sense or in a doctrinal sense, but they very often speak of the

Holy Spirit as if it is the power of God and a force of God and not a person of the

Godhead. Am I right? Isn't that something that you have encountered commonly, and isn't that dead wrong?

Yes, Chris, that is correct, and that is dead wrong. In fact, one of the notable examples, well,

I mean, this is common in the charismatic movement, but Benny Hinn, for example, how he slays people in the spirit, and he gets his jacket and waves his jacket at people and yells fire at them, and he pretends to wield the

Holy Spirit around like a lightsaber almost. I mean, he uses it to slay people, quote unquote, slay them in the spirit, and when you think about what he's supposedly doing, literally throwing, ostensibly, the

Holy Spirit of God at people, yeah, that reduces him to a thing.

That reduces the Holy Spirit to a thing, to a force. It's such a belittling and demeaning of the

Holy Spirit, but he is a person. You can't wield him at will.

In fact, he himself has will, and I'd like to deal with that a little bit.

The Holy Spirit of God is a person. He's not a third of God. He is fully God, and he is a person.

The Holy Spirit can be grieved. We see this in Ephesians 4, verse 30.

Paul says, do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God. You can't grieve a force.

You can't grieve an inanimate object. You can't grieve a non -sentient being, but the

Holy Spirit can be grieved. Why? Because he's a person. The Holy Spirit has intellect.

1 Corinthians 2, verses 10 through 11. Again, Paul writing, but to us,

God revealed them through the Spirit, through the Holy Spirit, for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.

For who among men knows the depths of a man except the spirit of a man which is in him? Even so, the depths of God no one knows except the

Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit. So he has intellect.

He knows things. In fact, he knows all things. He's omniscient. He has a will.

1 Corinthians chapter 12, verse 11. But one in the same

Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as he wills.

So he has volition. He has will. Of course, that verse is talking about the spiritual gifts.

The Holy Spirit speaks. Acts chapter 13, verse 2. The Holy Spirit speaking here very clearly,

I might add. Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.

Notice the clarity. Notice the crystal clear clarity with which the

Holy Spirit speaks. In stark contrast to what you hear today from the vast majority of the evangelical world, when they say things like, well,

I think the Lord might be trying to tell us, said no one in the

Bible ever. You don't see that kind of language anywhere. Yeah, like what was commonly, and I'm assuming still is commonly seen on the 700

Club, where you would have Pat Robertson or another host kind of getting the signal of the

Holy Spirit jammed up by maybe competing radio and TV signals.

Because you have Pat Robertson saying, there's a listener. I think he has a lump on either his left or right lung.

I believe this is a cancerous tumor. You know, I mean, what are you talking about?

If this is the Holy Spirit, there's no fuzziness. I mean, what is a prophet of God in the

Bible ever spoken with such fuzziness and uncertainty? Yeah, exactly right.

Exactly right. Chris. Yeah, that's the Holy Spirit is not unclear when he speaks in scripture.

When God speaks, he speaks with crystal clear clarity. There's no ambiguity. There's nobody.

Can you imagine Moses saying, well, you know, I think the Lord was trying to tell me such and such or or Abraham.

You know, when God told Abraham to go sacrifice his son, Isaac. Can you imagine that conversation with Sarah before they left?

If he was anything but unclear, I like Sarah. I know this is going to sound weird, but I really think

God is telling me to take Isaac up to this mountain and offer him as a sacrifice.

I can't be sure, but I think he is. So, you know, I'm going to go with my feelings here.

You know. No, I mean, or even or even painting the blood of the sacrificed lamb on the doorposts.

When that Passover day came and the first born son in the home would have been killed if they didn't do that.

And you're telling your family, I think I've got to go outside and maybe paint some blood on here.

I'm not really 100 percent sure. Right. Yeah. I mean, yeah, exactly.

Exactly. Chris, you know, or Noah telling his family, you know, guys, I know this is going to sound crazy and I can't be 100 percent sure.

But I think I think God wants us to build a big arc, you know, 500 feet long, 50 something feet high.

You know, I think he's going to flood the entire earth. And I think so. And so they start building this arc for about 120 years, probably.

Can you imagine at any point Noah being anything but unclear about what God told him to do?

You know, imagine like 60 years into this project, you know, the larks have built.

Well, I don't know. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe I heard God wrong. So. So the some of the other things that we must get right about the

Holy Spirit, and I'm sure you would agree, is that the Holy Spirit is co -equal and co -eternal with the

Father and the Son. And that does not mean that everything that the

Father and the Son accomplished in this in heaven and on this earth, that everything the

Father and the Son did, the Holy Spirit did as well. It does not mean that, obviously, because, for example, only

Jesus Christ died on the cross for the propitiation of the sins of his people.

The Father didn't do that. The Spirit didn't do that. But they were all in complete harmony in their agreement of an orchestration of that event.

That's right. That's right, Chris. That's right. God, the Father is not God, the

Son. God, the Son is not God, the Holy Spirit. God, the Holy Spirit is not God, the Father. And yet they are co -equal persons within the one

Godhead. But you're exactly right. They do have different roles, different functions, but they have a unity of will, unity of mind.

And so, you know, our finite minds, our fallen finite minds can't fully comprehend that.

And yet that is what Scripture teaches. So, He is a person.

The Holy Spirit is a person. In fact, read through the Gospel of John. John chapter 14,

John chapter 16, Jesus speaks a lot of the Holy Spirit there.

And He refers to Him, Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as a He, not as an

It. John 14, verse 16 through 17, He says, Jesus speaking,

And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate, another Helper, that He may be with you forever, the

Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him or know

Him. It doesn't say It. It says Him. You know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

John 16, 13 through 14, Jesus speaking again, But when

He, the Spirit of Truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth, for He will not speak from Himself, but whatever

He hears, He will speak, and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify

Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.

So over and over and over, Jesus is referring to the Holy Spirit as a

He, not an It. He is a person. The Holy Spirit is as much a person as is

Jesus, as is the Father. Well, we have an anonymous listener for you, and the anonymous listener says,

I'm remaining anonymous because I have never been satisfied by the answers from my own elders in the church where I'm a member in regard to this question that I am sure you have heard a million times already.

The question is, what exactly is meant by the sin of blasphemy against the

Holy Spirit as stated by Jesus in Matthew 12, verses 31 through 32, and Mark 3, verses 28 through 29, where Jesus said,

I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, men, but blasphemy against the

Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the

Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or the age to come.

Very heavy words there. And there have been even men who agree on the vast majority of theology and doctrine and practice who have disagreed over exactly what this means.

But if you could give your opinion or understanding of this. Sure, Chris.

Yeah, there is kind of a range of opinions on exactly what Jesus meant here, but broadly speaking,

I believe that the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is ascribing to the

Holy Spirit actual works of Satan. And that is what the

Pharisees were doing. That is the height of rejection of God.

And Jesus said that that sin will not be forgiven. In other words, basically what it boils down to is that a

Christian will not and cannot do such a thing. Anyone who would do that is clearly not one of God's sheep, not even a lost sheep who has not yet been called to the shepherd per John 10, verse 27.

So, yeah, that is not something that a Christian can commit. And I tell people, and I've had a few people over the years ask me, they've said things, variations of, well,

Justin, I'm afraid I may have committed this sin. And my first word to them, if you're even afraid that you've committed this sin, then you haven't.

Because if you had, you wouldn't even be worried about it. So the very fact that you're concerned is self -evident proof that you haven't done that.

Now, I have heard, perhaps it's not something that I have frequently heard, but I have definitely heard in the past especially, the charge of guilt for this sin against cessationists hurled at us by some

Charismatics and Pentecostals when we would dare question the authenticity of one of their prophecies, one of their divine utterances, so -called, one of their alleged healings, anything that they claim came directly from the

Holy Spirit, when we say, well, I don't believe that that actually did come from the Holy Spirit. Ah, you're committing the blasphemy of the

Holy Spirit. In fact, if you could respond to that when we return from the midway break, because we're going into the midway break now.

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Give us a first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence. We do have several statements from someone.

Actually, I forgot, I didn't finish where I was going before the commercial break. I will get back to this email

I've received from Mike in Monroe, New York, in a moment.

But let me just remind our listeners that we would like questions from our listeners about the topic that we are addressing.

Questions for my guest, Justin Peters, not teaching, not sending in an email that is teaching us, but I will nonetheless read this email from Mike in a moment.

Continuing in the thread, I began before the break of saying that there have been, in my own personal life, acquaintances, possibly even friends who are charismatic or Pentecostal, who have said on occasion that cessationists have been guilty of blaspheming the

Holy Spirit if they question the authenticity of some kind of a miraculous sign that has been uttered by the charismatic or Pentecostal individual.

Let's just say, for an example, a Pentecostal who claims to be getting some kind of a divine word, extra -biblical divine revelation, word of knowledge.

He says to a person, the Lord is telling me that you are going to get a substantial raise at your job next week, so you don't have to worry about those financial problems.

Next week comes by and the guy does get a raise, exactly as the person said.

It might even be the exact dollar amount that the person allegedly predicted.

Then the cessationist says, well, either that was some kind of a trick, the person had inside information about this person's job, or it was the power of the devil that revealed this to him or her.

And then the charismatic will claim that that refutation of the alleged word of knowledge is blaspheming the

Holy Spirit. Now, where do you stand on something like that, a scenario like that?

Sure, Chris. Well, my first thought is that the Bible itself tells us to test all things, right?

1 Thessalonians 5 .21, test all things, hold fast to that which is good. So I would be derelict in my

Christian duties not to test some alleged prophetic word or word of knowledge or whatever.

We must test these things. And so it is actually the enemy of the truth, the enemy of the gospel, the enemy of true

Christianity who would say, don't test me, don't question me.

That's what a wolf does, not a sheep. So it's laughable on its face to make such a ridiculous assertion.

The Bereans tested the apostle Paul, right? Acts 17, verse 11, they searched the scriptures to see if these things were really so.

So anytime you hear a Christian, a preacher say, don't question me, don't question my authority, don't question what

I teach. That's not a red flag. That's a red banner. That's a red billboard saying run from that person.

So, yeah, it is not. It's just a farcical charge to say something like that.

Now, let me ask a question that has often entered into my mind.

Is it possible that just as God gave permission to Satan to harass and plague

Job and all those ways that are recorded in Scripture, everything that happened negative to Job was from the hand of Satan, but done with permission from God.

Satan asked God permission each and every step of the way. He knew he had to. On the reverse of that, is it possible that there are self -professed miracle workers, exorcists and things like that who are actually performing miracles or that God has permitted them to perform miracles, even though these men and women are charlatans or lost?

Like, for instance, when we read that most terrifying series of verses in recorded

Scripture, most terrifying for anybody who claims to be a

Christian, Matthew 7, 21 verses 23, not everyone who says to me,

Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my father who is in heaven will enter.

Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name cast out demons and in your name perform many miracles?

And then I will declare to them, I never knew you, leave me, you who practice lawlessness.

Now, Jesus never said in that that declaration that they did not prophesy, that they did not cast out demons and that they did not perform many miracles.

So the question is, were those miracles done by the power of Satan or were they done by God as he is just permitting these charlatans and evildoers who claim to be

Christians to perform these miracles? Yes, so those, and you're absolutely right,

Matthew 7, 21 through 23, I think truly is some of the most terrifying, some of the most terrifying verses in all of God's Word.

And I believe that those people there who cried out, Lord, Lord, I think that is,

I think they were genuinely surprised to find themselves in the position that they did.

I don't think that was a feigned thing. I think they were really surprised. So they at least thought that they had the ability to prophesy and cast out demons and perform signs and wonders.

I think Benny Hinn, at some level, thinks he's really doing the

Lord's work. Paul makes an interesting statement in 2 Timothy 3, verse 13. He says evil men and imposters will grow from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived, deceiving and being deceived.

So both of those dynamics can be at work in the same person. False teachers actively deceive people.

Benny Hinn does. And yet there is a sense in which they are themselves being deceived.

And so you can find both of those at work in the same person. Now, more broadly speaking, yes, I do.

Demons are real. Satan is real. And they do have power. They can manufacture fake signs and wonders.

They're obviously not from God, but yes, they can do supernatural things, if you will.

The Egyptian magicians, up to a point, could reproduce the same miracles that Moses and Aaron were doing there in the

Egyptian court, up to a point. And pretty impressive even up to that point as well.

So Satan does have some power. Demons do have power. Now, they only, as you rightly pointed out in Job 1, we know that they only have the power that God allows them to have.

Satan is on a leash and God is holding the other end of that short leash. I can't remember which one of the reformers said this, but he quipped that even the devil is

God's devil. So, yeah, now in the Word of Faith, NAR movement, the vast, vast, vast majority of the supposed miracles, signs and wonders that are taking place are being alleged.

They're fake. I mean, they're not even real on a demonic level.

The vast majority of them are fake. Psychosomatic stuff, peer pressure, group dynamic stuff, mind over body, that's all it is.

A very small percentage of some of the activity that you see in these Word of Faith NAR circles are supernatural in that they do have a demonic origin.

I believe that a small percentage of them are demonic in origin, but none of it is of God.

Oh, so you're saying that a false teacher cannot perform a genuine miracle that God permits that person to perform at all.

Like, for instance, if somebody claims to be a healer and the person is an unregenerate person, they may be a charlatan or just deceive themselves.

And they lay hands on somebody that has cancer, and it is verified that that person, after medical tests are done, the next day, the next week, whatever, they are cancer free.

Are you saying that that could never happen as far as a miracle of God by the hands of an unregenerate person?

Because God does and has allowed people to be deceived for his own purposes.

He has allowed them to receive a delusion, and so could this be another way that he is doing that?

But I'm just asking questions here. I'm not speaking affirmatively. Sure. Yeah.

No, I would say that no false teacher would perform any kind of true miracle of God.

God would not use a false teacher to perform a true work of his.

No, because gifts are only given to the sheep. Goats don't have spiritual gifts.

So now I will say we do know from scripture is very clear in the gospels that demons do, at least on occasion, have the power to inflict sickness.

We see that in several places in through the gospels. So it would be logical to kind of follow the logic here.

If I were Satan and I wanted to do something to divert a person's attention away from the gospel and get them to focus on signs and wonders and that kind of thing,

I think it would be a very logical thing for Satan or someone, one of his demons to could inflict some kind of a disease, some kind of a malady, and then simply withdraw from that person.

And then by the simple withdrawal of this demonic activity, that person kind of naturally recovers.

And that is alleged to be, oh, look at this real miracle. I really am a man of God.

See what I did. And that gets people to flock after this particular false teacher.

I absolutely believe that that does happen, but that's not an active work of God.

That is simply the removal of some demonic activity to divert people's attention away from the gospel.

And so I think that does happen. Does that make sense? Yes. And our listener in Monroe, New York, Michael, he originally sent us a fairly lengthy teaching lesson via email.

And when he heard my loving and mild correction of that, because we want questions, he submitted a question.

So thank you, Michael. And I hope you were not offended by what I had to say. But we try to keep our listeners participation to questions, just like when

I have arranged debates and when we used to hand people a microphone. And even when

I used to have a live call in show rather than an email in show. Very often there would be people who would not ask questions, but they would give very lengthy teaching lessons and lectures.

And that's not what we want from the listeners. I have guests for that. But anyway,

Michael in Monroe, New York, says, if what practicing charismatics do is not of the

Holy Spirit, then what spirit is it? I'm thinking about those who claim they have the gift of tongues.

Yeah. When I hear a charismatic claiming to speak in tongues and they are doing something that sounds like they may be speaking in tongues,

I am reminded of the old C .S. Lewis adage about Jesus.

You can't say he was a great prophet unless you believe he is truly

God in the flesh. You can't say that he was a wonderful human being if he is not

God in the flesh because of what he claimed about himself. And summarized,

Lewis said that Jesus was either a lunatic, a liar or Lord.

I think the same thing about folks who are speaking in tongues. If it's not from God, which we cessationists don't believe it is today.

It's either something that they have forced themselves to do out of repetition and trying to appease others around them.

They mimic other people around them or they're truly mentally ill or they do have a demonic spirit that is making them do this.

So what is your thought or what are your thoughts on people who speak tongues today, speak in tongues today that we would consider it to be gibberish?

Sure, Chris. Well, in short, the vast majority of what you see in charismatic movement speaking in tongues is simply the only spirit that it's from is the spirit of man.

It is something that you learn how to do. Speaking in gibberish is just a learned behavior, and it's practiced in a number of other pagan religions as well.

Hindus, some Muslims even speak in tongues, Buddhists speak in tongues, and they do it in the exact same way, the exact same way that charismatics do.

So so it's I don't think it's demonic. I just think it's a learned behavior.

And I can't tell you how many former charismatics that have come up to me over the years and have told me that they used to be charismatic.

They used to speak in tongues, but then they became convinced of the cessationist position.

They are now card carrying cessationist like I am. But guess what?

They still have the ability to do. They can still speak in tongues. I would commend to people a YouTube channel named

Digging Deeper by Andreas Wiget.

That's how it's pronounced, but we spell it W -I -G -E -T, but Andreas Wiget. He's from Switzerland, and he's a former charismatic.

Now he's a cessationist, but he's got a number of videos on his YouTube channel about tongues, and he demonstrates how he can still speak in tongues, even though he's a cessationist.

So it's just a learned behavior. The genuine gift of tongues, Chris, was the ability not to speak in gibberish, but the ability to speak in a known human language, just not known to the one speaking it.

It would be like me instantly being able to speak fluent Swahili. It's a known human language.

It's just not known to me. And there was a purpose for the gift of tongues. It was a sign of judgment against unbelieving

Israel. And that's a whole other issue, probably way off in the weeds for our purposes here. But what you see charismatics do today with speaking in tongues, this gibberish that they talked in, that bears zero resemblance to the genuine gift of languages, which is really what we should call that gift.

Instead of the gift of tongues, we should call it the gift of languages. It's the word glosa, and the word glosa in biblical

Greek and in extra secular Greek, if you will. The word glosa only has two possible meanings.

It can either mean the physical organ inside our mouths, or it can mean a known human language.

That's the only two ways that glosa is ever used. We should say the gift of languages rather than the gift of tongues.

Kind of a long answer to the question, but I hope that cleared it up some. Yes, thank you very much,

Mike. And let's see, we have a listener,

Joseph in South Central Pennsylvania, who asks, in your opinion, is it possible for a

Christian to be deceived into believing in modalism and still be a genuine

Christian who goes to heaven after death? I've been asked that many times myself, and I don't know if you agree with me, but I put people who are modalists or oneness

Pentecostals or anti -Trinitarians into two different groups. There is the average person who is deceived by a teacher about it and merely mimics those falsehoods.

And there is the teacher himself who is on a crusade to refute the biblical doctrine of the

Trinity and tear it down and to cast doubt on the authenticity of Christians who believe in the

Trinity. I think that there are two different categories there, and that would also be with some other issues.

In other words, I would be more certain that a person is lost if they are a studied teacher who is on a mission to refute the

Trinity than somebody who is clumsy in their theology over it and may spew a modalist description of what the

Trinity is. What are your thoughts on that? I do agree with that,

Chris, and I would just add a little bit to it. I would say for the layperson, if you will, who is just not theologically astute, and they've heard modalism, and so they kind of believe it on some level but don't really understand what it is.

I believe that that person could be a true

Christian, I would say a very immature Christian, a very young Christian, but my hesitation here would come in this.

I would say that once that young believer is shown the truth from Scripture and they see from Scripture where it's wrong, then

I would fully expect this person, if he is a true Christian, then he would abandon modalism and embrace the truth.

So that would be the only thing that I would add to it. I think a true Christian, a very young Christian, could, just for various reasons, being poorly taught or whatever, initially espouse that at some level, but if you're truly indwelt by the

Holy Spirit, and once you see the truth from Scripture, then you're going to abandon the error and embrace the truth.

Just for the sake of those who've never heard that term modalism, am I correct in saying that this is a teaching of anti -Trinitarians,

Unitarians, and I don't mean necessarily the left -wing Protestant denomination, apostate denomination, that only believes in one

God without there being different persons in the Godhead? But this is typically a view that will say that in contradiction to there being three distinct, co -equal, and co -eternal persons of the

Godhead, that God manifests himself at different times and seasons as one or the other of those things that are identified as the three persons of the

Godhead by Trinitarians. He has been God the Father, and now he is

Jesus Christ, and some of those would even view the

Holy Spirit in a way that we referred to earlier as just the power of Jesus.

But am I correct in the way I'm describing modalism? Yes, Chris, you are.

And as the name implies, it's the belief that God changes modes. He changes manifestations, changes modes, hence modalism.

And sometimes he has the Father hat on, sometimes he has the Son hat on, sometimes he has the

Holy Spirit hat on. And so to paraphrase John MacArthur here, you have a lot of problems with that from Scripture, not the least of which is that Jesus' baptism, and John MacArthur said, boy, he's changing hats real fast there.

Of course, you hear the voice from heaven, the Father, you see the Son physically on earth, and the

Holy Spirit descending in the form of a dove. So you have all three persons there at the same time.

But yes, that is a fair representation. And T .D. Jakes, by the way, is modalistic.

And T .D. Jakes is someone who is not ignorant. He has studied this. He rejects

Trinitarianism, and so we must consider T .D. Jakes as someone outside the camp, not a believer.

But he is doing it—he is rejecting the Trinity more in an ambiguous and in a stealth manner, is he not?

He doesn't come right out and say, I do not believe in the Trinity. He says, I don't like to use language that's not in the

Bible, so don't force language into my own lips. That's basically the way he tries to get around it, isn't it?

It is, Chris. And he's the quintessential wolf in sheep's clothing. But if you go to his website right now, go to the

Potter's House website, Google it, find it, go to their doctrinal statement right now, you will see that this language says, we believe in one

God in three manifestations, not persons, manifestations.

That's very intentional, very modalistic language there.

So, yeah. Yeah, and we have to go to our final break. It's going to be a lot briefer or more brief.

I can't remember which is grammatically correct. And the other breaks, if you have a question that you have not yet submitted, please submit it as quickly as you can because we are rapidly running out of time.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com is the email address. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Don't go away, we'll be right back after these messages. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching, writing about and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

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Chris Arnzen, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd at the

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Anthony Uvino, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corum, New York, and also the host of the reformrookie .com

website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show like I do, you can now find it on the

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1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com. We're now back with my guest, Justin Peters.

And, Justin, I would like you to address the final work of the Holy Spirit that he does that is often overlooked and dismissed even in our own

Reformed circles. Yes, Chris, one of the most important and sadly overlooked roles of the

Holy Spirit in our lives as believers is his work of sanctification. He grows us in holiness,

Chris. He conforms us into the image of Christ. And those whom God saves, he also sanctifies without exception.

And whether we're talking about word of faith or NAR or kind of the more easy believism forms of the gospel, pray this prayer, never examine yourself, or if you're talking about some in our own theologically

Reformed camps, you know, high sovereignty, high view of the sovereignty of God, there's a whole wing, sadly,

Chris, of people in my own theological camp, more Reformed, that have a very low view of sanctification.

They espouse all the right things, claim a high view of Scripture, high view of the sovereignty of God, and yet they are far, far too chummy with the world.

They seem to glory and flaunt at least what they perceive to be their

Christian liberties. I've seen some of these pastors use profanity, even in the pulpit.

They boast about their whatever alcohol they're drinking and stuff like that.

And they're just too chummy, too cozy with the world and with sin, quite frankly.

And one of the marks of a maturing Christian is that as we mature in Christ, we have an increasing sensitivity to sin, an increasing disdain of sin.

There should be a decreasing pattern of sin in our lives, an increasing pattern of holiness.

And that is one of his most important roles in our lives, is he grows us in Christ.

He sanctifies us, so we should be growing in our sanctification, in our personal holiness.

And we should have what Paul describes as a godly sorrow over sin in 2 Corinthians 7.

It's not that we as Christians don't sin, we do. But if you're truly a Christian and you sin, it should grieve you.

Your sin should grieve you, because we understand that our sin grieves God. And so I would command that to people.

That is one of the most precious works of God's Holy Spirit, is he grows us in personal holiness.

And we have time for one last question, which would require a brief answer. An anonymous listener says, how do you respond to Charismatics and Pentecostals who make claims that Baptists and other cessationists do not believe in the

Holy Ghost, or that they are not

Spirit -filled? Yes, I have heard both. In my journey of searching biblical truth before I became a

Reformed Christian, I had visited many Charismatic and Pentecostal churches, and sometimes in casual conversation, and even sometimes from a pulpit,

I've heard them say, you know those Baptists down the street? They don't believe in the Holy Spirit. Or they'll say, they're not

Spirit -filled. Now obviously, I don't think that necessarily they're trying to imply that doctrinally we deny the existence of the third person of the

Trinity. But it's still sloppy and dangerous language that is really slander, isn't it?

It is, Chris. Real quickly, it's ironic that those people would look at a cessationist and say, you don't believe in the

Holy Spirit, you have a low view. To the contrary, as a cessationist, I cede no ground in my view of the

Holy Spirit to those in the hyper -Charismatic world. Because why is it that the most brazen heretics, the most prolific false prophets, the people who most exploit the poor and the sick and the widows for personal financial gain, these prosperity preachers, the people who put words in God's mouth that He did not say, why is it that all these people find a welcome home in the movement, the

Charismatic movement that claims to have a high view of Scripture, and yet it is that very movement that is the welcoming home to the most brazen charlatans, hucksters, false prophets, and heretics that have ever brought reproach upon the name of Christ.

So it is not we who have a low view of the Holy Spirit, it is they who have a low view of the Holy Spirit of God.

Well, we're out of time. Don't forget about the two events where Justin Peters will be speaking.

First of all, the Grace Life Church of Anvil, Pennsylvania, is featuring Justin on the 28th through the 30th of April.

And go to justinpeters .org and click on events. And then don't forget about the

Sovereignty of God Conference, the G3 Conference, September 21st through the 23rd in Atlanta, Georgia.

Go to g3men .org, g3men .org. Use promo code G3ISIR for a 30 % discount.

And I thank you so much, Justin, for being such an extraordinary guest as you always are. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater