July 2, 2019 Show with Mostyn Roberts on “The Subversive Puritan: Roger Williams & Freedom of Conscience”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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It's iron sharpens iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host Chris

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Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity who are living

on the planet Earth listening via live -streaming at Iron sharpens iron radio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this second day

of July 2019.

I just got back From Franklin, Tennessee over the weekend and had

such a phenomenal time At the John Bunyan conference a conference that I

attended regularly as a new Christian in the late 1980s early 1990s

and This is a conference that was hosted

primarily by the late John G Riesinger a pioneer amongst

the Calvinistic Baptists During the resurgence of the beliefs of sovereign

grace amongst Baptists in the mid 19th century.

I'm sorry John wasn't that old the mid 20th century.

And John was a friend of mine and used to love to go hear him speak even though John and I had

some Differences on theology.

I still learned a great deal from him as I attended those conferences With my friend the

late Don blend the pastor for many years at First Baptist Church of

Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York which was the church that my late wife was a member of prior to our

marriage and I just have so many fond memories of the John Bunyan conference.

The right -hand man of John Riesinger during those years was Fred Zaspel Helping to run those

conferences.

So this was the first John Bunyan conference.

I attended since the 1990s.

It was held this time as opposed to Pennsylvania where it always used to be held.

It was held in Franklin, Tennessee at Grace Church at Franklin pastored by my

friend Bill Sasser.

And I had such a wonderful time with Bill and his lovely wife Lynn and so many of my old friends From

the old days at the John Bunyan conference and also I have met a number of new friends.

New acquaintances who I am confident will become friends.

So I am really looking forward to Interviewing many of the folks that were involved in this

conference.

I Also had a wonderful time on my way down to Franklin, Tennessee with

my friend Roger Salter and his wife Maureen we had a wonderful

lunch in an Indian restaurant that they like to frequent there in Birmingham, Alabama

and It was so great to see Roger he is a reformed Anglican

rector in Birmingham, Alabama at st. Matthew's a very conservative

Calvinistic low church.

Well, actually, I think that Roger might be actually more of a Higher church

reformed Anglican, but he's very Calvinistic and Protestant.

And.

It was just a blessed time fellowshiping with them and then on the way back from Tennessee

while on my way here to Pennsylvania.

I made a pit stop Unexpectedly for two days it was only supposed to be for one but

Had a really wonderful time with a listener or should I say two listeners in My audience

that have become I believe lifelong friends as of last week I'm

speaking of Sterling Vander Worker And his wife Bronnie.

What wonderful hospitable hosts they were welcoming me into their

home for rest and relaxation along the journey and I am looking forward to

Continuing and building a friendship that we began last week.

Sterling Vander Worker is also going to be a new advertiser on iron sharpens iron radio.

He is the owner of Royal Diadem jewelers there in

Greensboro, North Carolina so keep your ears open for that

that New sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio, but today I am so thrilled to have

on the first live program since my return from Franklin, Tennessee.

I'm having back on the program Mostyn Roberts who is minister of

the Welland Evangelical Church in Hertfordshire United Kingdom and he's the

author of a biography on Francis Schaeffer in Evangelical Press's bite -sized biography

series and We are going to be discussing part two of a discussion that we began

a number of weeks ago the subversive Puritan Roger Williams and freedom of conscience,

which is the latest book by Mostyn Roberts and It's my honor and privilege to welcome you

back to iron sharpens iron radio Mostyn Roberts.

Delighted to be back again, and we can do

better.

I wouldn't complain about yourself.

I thought you did a wonderful job.

Anyway, no, it's nice to be back with you again.

And thank you for the invitation and for anybody listening who did not hear part one of our

interview on the subvert Subversive Puritan Roger Williams and freedom of conscience.

You can go to the iron sharpens iron radio archives Ironsharpensironradio .com and of course

after this live show is over You can look up in the past programs or past

shows podcast section.

There is a search engine where you can type in his first name that I definitely never had another guest named

Mostyn.

So if you typed in his first name m o s t y n m as in Michael Oh s is in Sam t as

in Thomas y n as in Nancy.

That will immediately bring up the interview the previous interview that we had with pastor Mostyn Roberts

on the same Subject and we are going to expand on this Theme and address things

that we did not address during our first interview because it is such a rich subject the life of this

Very unusual and very important figure in church history Roger Williams.

Before we go into the part two of that discussion Pastor Mostyn, why don't you

remind our listeners for those of you who?

Heard you last time.

Or.

Introduce for the very first time those that missed your first interview.

Introduce our listeners to the Welland Evangelical Church in Hertfordshire United Kingdom.

Sure I've been the

the pastor at Welland

Evangelical Church.

My own history is on law in

this country of London.

It's independent it

would be the 1889.

We're a theology.

We're quite a small Middle middle -sized.

Yes.

Let me remind our

listeners

of

that.

Website right now.

It's Welland which is spelt W E L W Y N never expect

the UK or the Welsh or Anybody from that area of the world to spell things the way you would

expect them to.

It's W E L W Y N dash or hyphen evangelical

dot org dot UK.

That's W E L W Y N dash Evangelical dot org dot UK

and we'll be repeating that hopefully later on in the program.

Let us begin now with The theme again the title of your book

because I want you to explain something perhaps in more depth than we ever did during part one of our interview

and I lay the blame at myself because I don't know if I ever asked you to do to in detail

define freedom of conscience.

But since that is a vital thing to remember in the legacy of Roger Williams

What exactly are you speaking of when you say freedom of conscience or when you think of Roger Williams contribution

to church history.

Well.

Conscience became.

An.

Issue.

We

all remember

how

and

so it's a

word of God.

They

weren't later became.

Even freedom of conscience for anybody else, right?

I mean, wouldn't you say that was basically the same for the magisterial reformers?

Yeah, they they've.

They believed in it most intensely for themselves because yeah.

Many of them were being tortured and executed by the Church of Rome.

But once they gained a stronghold somewhere, they unfortunately abused the same power that roamed it.

This is the problem.

I mean it is ironic that William Prynne the famous puritan had

his ears Joined

in burning William Roger Williams's book ten years later.

When you're generally they couldn't see that it it was anything.

But chaotic at least.

He burned the book and not the man himself.

They didn't burn the man himself.

Largely because he'd fled back to America by.

He wasn't in even England when his book was published.

They like

Williams.

Then they

began to.

And of

course

that

is

not to

be

confused

with.

Ecumenism especially not especially modern ecumenism.

All kinds of crazy Affiliations with people who worship together and they're worshiping in reality different gods.

Well, that's right.

I mean and.

And Williams was very clear.

He

did

not

that

they could see

now.

Don't you think there are according to a an accurate definition of freedom of conscience at least?

Yeah, the freedom of conscience that was desired by Roger Williams and even reformers before him.

Yeah, there is.

There are greater liberties Expected in the freedom of

conscience.

When you are speaking of your neighbors then those within the confines of your own congregation Obviously, there is a

certain level of freedom of conscience.

Otherwise, you're in a cult if everybody is Required to believe exactly the same thing in every single matter.

But at the same time when you're under the headship of a local congregation.

Yeah, there are there is more of a restriction involved in what you can believe.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean don't forget we we already got and I went spent a lot of time time off.

I'm talking but Williams is rather peculiar ideas about the the church.

I thought that he felt that church.

Maybe if you if you commit India to gather together, then you you.

But what he

was saying is it mean his big argument?

Bloody tenant.

Persecution

which is

still

available.

You can

get

it,

but he

said

then

he

would

go a

godly man.

There's no doubt about John by God, but on this issue.

He was very much in the

Crete of baptism,

which right

the

only

the

only way

a person

is.

In any way opposed or restricted biblically when they are

Refusing to believe in biblical orthodoxy or they are adopting heresy is the either the

refusal to permit membership for these people and refusal refusal to permit

baptism and so on or The excommunication of that person if they've already Become a

member.

We are we are not to threaten with physical violence.

Or or prison or anything like that?

That is unfortunately tragically has been a part of our history and it's even more bizarre

when Calvinists or reform people have ever been involved in that.

Because yeah, obviously we believe that only a miracle of the Holy Spirit working

a Miracle of regeneration in the heart of a dead lost sinner Can bring that

person to true saving faith.

And since we have enough problem with false professors among us Why would we want to coerce with violence the

the professions of faith of others to join in our ranks?

Reprobates the deal with already in our ranks.

Well, yeah.

I Williams used to point out you see

that and

he would

he would say therefore we must he would be applied

Church to the state.

So he would say he would say he would say this and that

that was pretty I mean I was with again was a great

material, of course,

but he also wrote what the

when he wrote Against a large against Williams.

I mean a major work very largely against

against his own writing and Rutherford

would and

they would use

Treatment of the

donut

whether

they

would right and

if

you could now let us know how.

Roger Williams uniquely is Connected with this

idea of the liberty or freedom of conscience and how he carried that Through his ministry

after leaving England and entering in the United States.

Yeah, in fact, I Am assuming you would agree with me.

I am a reformed Baptist as are you or at least at least you're Baptistic.

That I believe that the Baptists were really

True Reformers and that they continued the Reformation even further than their

forefathers in the Reformation who are Pato Baptists.

We expunged or Shred shedded I should

say not shredded shedded more of the trappings and baggage of Rome and The

issue of the freedom of conscience is even more I think clearly and vividly seen and

practiced amongst Baptists.

Because typically as a people There are some exceptions with denominations amongst Baptists but typically we

are a people who believe in the local autonomy of The church or the independence of the local

church where there is no hierarchical structure Outside the elders of that church other than

Christ himself and his word.

Yeah.

So you would agree with that that we are.

Oh I would certainly.

Oh, yes.

Yes.

Yes.

I mean in terms of I would call my I would call myself a Baptist.

Maybe you know without without any hesitation in terms in terms of denomination if I remember of such a denomination,

but.

But that's interesting that one of yes I'll come back to James Dean

Knowles who the honor of being the

first clearly maintained the

absolute Williams

as nine.

Is it the same building?

No, not the same building.

But they do have something is

waiting

for a

return of

the Apostles or

something.

He

was right.

That's right.

He was waiting for it.

They believed that are they were the person bit more

logically.

They weren't yet as a period.

He was never an teacher.

But he did.

He just didn't believe that there was you know.

He was very sad and he lamented and it which is interesting that

he didn't believe a true

church existed

and yet.

He wanted to perpetuate the ordinances of the church and absolutely the Lord's Supper, right?

I.

Have no record

of

he

unfairly

ejected.

Send it back

to England.

I'd love to get the details on that eventually.

Exactly what you mean by that.

Okay, right?

But he he he landed he came to Providence and

He

landed

up in

road

etiquette

in

the

60s and

again Williams didn't agree with it.

He didn't have to agree with

these people.

You

know, he

wasn't

saying

yeah, I agree.

Well, I want to.

Picking up on that very statement you just made.

Yeah, I want to ask a question of a listener.

And have you answer it when we return?

Okay, in fact, I'll also in addition to Reading it now. I will

forward the email to you.

So you'll have it right in front of you and during the commercial break you can look

that question over and Answer it to the best of your ability

and I'm forwarding that to you now, but I'm also going to read it.

The question is from Joe in a thigh, Ireland and

Let's see here.

I had it right in front of me.

Okay, here it is.

Joe in a thigh, Ireland says.

Dear brother Chris.

Thank you for your continued service to our Lord Jesus Christ through the ministry of iron sharpens iron.

I have a question for your guests, please.

From researching the current First Baptist Church of America on their official website They boast

that they are Roger Williams Baptists in quote, but they also celebrate the

LGBTQ plus movement they appear to be using Roger Williams's view on

freedom to worship according to one's conscience.

Free from the interference of the state as justification for their apostasy.

Can your guest comment on this please is this twisting of the original view of Roger Williams to be to the

extreme and He has a second question that I'll read later when you

Return from when we return from the break, but that seems that that seems like His question involves

what I brought up earlier that there's a difference With the freedom of conscience as to what one

neighbors may freely do and what you may do underneath The roof and between or within the

walls of the congregation where you are a member those are two different things.

I I think so.

Yeah, I'll know.

I'll mull that over Chris and when you come back to me great.

If anybody else would like to join us on the air.

But with a question for our guest Mostyn Roberts on Roger Williams our email address is Chris

Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please as always give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, don't go away.

We'll be right back with Mostyn Roberts and more of our discussion on Roger Williams after these messages from our sponsors

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with about 90 minutes or less to go is

Mostyn Roberts minister of the Welland Evangelical Church in Hertfordshire United Kingdom

a Reformed and Baptist Church in England and we are discussing part two.

Of the subject we began several weeks ago the subversive Puritan not easy to say

the subversive Puritan Roger Williams and freedom of conscience.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And before the break as you know, we had Joe in a thigh Ireland

and by the way, have you ever been to a thigh?

Pastor Mostyn?

Can't you know.

I've been to Ireland County Kildare is over on

but yeah.

Am I mispronouncing.

I think I Would have granted a seat, but I might be wrong.

I say I think I think I remember in a past email our brother in Ireland.

Spelt it phonetically and I think it's a thought.

Fine.

Yeah, but anyway, he said From researching the current First Baptist Church of America on their official website They

boast that they are Roger William Baptists, but they also celebrate the LGBTQ movement yeah

there to be using Roger Williams views on Freedom to worship according to one's conscience free

from the interference of the state as justification for their apostasy.

Can you your guests comment on this, please?

Yeah, I think that is misusing William

Roger Williams.

Argued against the

argued against

Behavior he

argued against

that that would

have made a much more interesting label on the Quaker Oats box.

But he he he never.

He always stood up.

He he certainly I Think I mean

his morality,

which he he had

terrible ideas of the

idea that

Williams could be.

You know the idea of freedom of I mean

well, I

mean this behavior.

Called today LBGTQ plus that this would have been

a Scandal and an outrage even amongst pagans

in in the norm back in this.

Oh, yeah.

I mean that this is not something that was.

Yeah, disgust openly even by most people.

You know obviously the sin has been around since Old Testament days.

Yeah.

But it's not something that even the lost would publicly normally involve themselves in.

They might do it in the privacy and darkness of their own homes, but yeah I.

Have to.

He would have I mean he for example in one of his.

Yeah,

he

discusses

this

idea to which licentious.

And Williams.

He he

did have to

grab.

I can't imagine he would

have taught

by the way we have.

Listener Mary and Cork Ireland who confirmed that the pronunciation is a thigh.

Thank You Mary.

And.

And we have Joe has a second part of his question or a second question.

I Would appreciate it if you and the listening audience Could pray for me.

I lost my job late last year and have been finding it difficult to secure another job since.

I had an interview last week that I thought went well, but I was unsuccessful.

I have another interview for a similar role tomorrow trusting in the Lord for his

provision.

I'm gonna say a very brief I don't know if I've ever done this on the show, but I'm gonna say a very brief prayer for

Joe in a thigh Ireland right now father in heaven we Know that we are to be anxious for

nothing.

You have told us such so, please Lord I ask of you to first of all calm the mind and spirit of

Joe in a thigh Ireland.

Give him a confidence and trust That your will will always be what is best

for him as you promise in Romans 828.

In many other places we ask of you Lord to bring him a good paying job that

utilizes his talents and Where he can provide not only for those he loves but also

for your church in an adequate fashion.

Please bring these things about quickly Lord.

We love you, and we thank you for your grace and your good providence and in Jesus name.

We pray amen.

Thank you Joe and keep listening to iron sharpens iron radio and keep spreading the word about the show

in a Thigh Ireland and beyond and by the way I wanted to clarify something before

when I was referring to us having a more restricted freedom of conscience

in regard to those Things confined underneath the roof and within the walls of a church.

I am NOT saying that what we do and believe and practice in the body

of Christ is Only to be restricted in a building.

I was referring to the membership.

That was just a different way of saying it if you're a member of a church.

If you're a Bible -believing church You are only to be permitted to remain in membership if you believe

in biblical orthodoxy.

Obviously there should be some Liberty of conscience, but it is much more restrained when you're a member of

a church than what you would view as a freedom for your neighbors who could be pagans and all

kinds of False members of all kinds of false religions as long as they don't bring about harm

to the community, but Anyway, I just thought I'd make clear that I meant that in regard to

membership and you do agree with that Obviously, I think it goes hand -in -hand with what our guests asked.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

So so when you went to that church, did you were you aware that they were is this is I guess.

Well.

When I was in America three years ago, we did have a very kindly

treated there certainly in the state house.

We did go to the First Protestant Church and have a look around.

They're friendly, but I think I could see that probably theology.

Certainly that there but I I don't know.

I I didn't see anything about the LGBTQ connection at

that point.

Of

course.

Excuse me when you were Describing Briefly in a summary fashion

Roger Williams exodus from England and coming here to America you referred to it as

actually fleeing Massachusetts in the snow and then washing up on the shores of Rhode

Island.

Did you mean that literally or was there?

That was that was.

Yeah.

He

had

to leave

didn't

obey that void that

so it's

almost

certain that

he some

some

historians.

Do you think he

went around the coast by.

I would assume it's not more than that.

Yeah, he.

So I'm assuming that He fled Massachusetts they for the Puritans in Massachusetts because

of his rejection of pedo baptism.

No, no, I'm sorry.

It was it was

okay, but he did

he did.

Was he ever a

pedo?

Baptist because I know you.

Refer to being a pedo Baptist up to that up to that point because

We have

to go

to our

midway

break right

now.

And this actually also gives our guests the time to phone back in to the United States from

England because it's more.

It's more money if he remains on the phone the entire time.

When he splits it up into two -hour breaks or two -hour segments, I should say it is less

expensive.

So we're going to Welcome must and back after this break.

He's gonna call back later.

This is an extended break that we have in the middle of the show and This is because Grace Life Radio

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We're gonna be right back with this after this Series of messages from our sponsors and we'll

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Before I return to Our interview with Mauston Roberts on Roger Williams, I

Just wanted to make a couple of very quick announcements regarding special events that are coming up on

Thursday and Friday December 19th and 20th of December I am

returning to Manhattan.

What a great time to be in New York City during and during the Christmas season.

Wow, I just look forward to that very much.

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that they have waiting for you.

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The speakers include.

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Thomas Reverend Armin Tomasian who as I keep reminding you I think is gonna be a household name over the next

decade.

He is that gifted and that powerful even though he's a young man.

He has gifts and abilities far beyond his age.

Richard Caldwell jr.

And Andrew Quigley are two men.

I have not yet heard preached yet.

But since sermon audio selected them, they must be wonderful.

If you want to join me there in Manhattan December 19th and 20th Thursday and Friday December 19th and 20th.

Go to the foundations conference comm the foundations conference comm and register.

Then coming up in January the 16th through the 18th of January.

Once again, I'm packing up my bags and heading down south to Atlanta Georgia more

specifically College Park, Georgia a suburb of Atlanta.

I am going to the g3 conference again, where I'll be manning and iron sharpens iron exhibitors booth in that

crowd or amongst that crowd of 5 ,000 plus attendees

and I am so excited about it something always good happens for iron sharpens iron radio when I

man an exhibitors booth at the g3 conference did three G's by the way stand for gospel grace and

glory and I urge you not only to attend Get

there by plane train or automobile and especially if you live in Atlanta, you have no excuse.

I'm sorry I will rebuke you until The Lord returns.

You don't attend this conference if you live nearby.

They always have a an extraordinary lineup of speakers at the g3 conference this

January the theme is worship matters.

The speakers include Kosti Hinn Who is a reformed Baptist

cessationist pastor in California, and I stress the word cessationist for a reason.

He's the nephew of renowned heretic and charlatan Benny Hinn

and Kosti would not be upset by me saying that about his uncle because he says that every Opportunity he gets to say that in

public his one of his life's missions is to expose The Word of Faith movement for the

heretical and dangerous and deadly and damning movement that it is.

Even though his uncle is one of the primary figures in that movement.

He has renounced this movement as Being from the pit of hell and he

is as I said a reformed Baptist and a cessationist pastoring in, California.

He is one of the speakers on the roster.

David Miller is on the roster a Man who is no doubt well known to most of

the iron sharpens iron radio listeners.

Derek Thomas is on the roster.

My friend of many years since 1995.

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries is on the roster.

Joel Beeky who I've also known and have called friend since the 1990s.

President of Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

He is on the roster.

Josh Bice who is the founder of the g3 conference is on the roster.

He is an extraordinary preacher, by the way again, we have Stephen J Lawson and

Paul Washer both on the roster at the g3 conference.

Dr Tom Askell who is the executive director of founders ministries the Calvinistic ministry within the Southern

Baptist Convention and Votie Balcom another really profound preacher teacher writer.

You've got to hear Bodie Balcom if you've never heard him before you go to YouTube and hear some of his sermons.

He is just amazing.

So if you want to go to this conference in January 16th through the 18th and Join me

there and go to g3conference .com g3conference .com all the information that you need to

register is there and I strongly urge you again if if you have a business or a parachurch

ministry.

Or something that you want to advertise and promote amongst the body of Christ I would

strongly urge you that you not only Register to attend the g3 conference, but register for an exhibitors

booth just like I will be manning.

It'd be great if you had had the booth near mine.

I will be looking forward to meeting you if that is the case.

So register not only to attend but if you if it applies to you register for an exhibitors booth before they run out of room.

That's g3conference .com.

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those two commands I mentioned providing for church and home and The email address

for you to send in questions to our guests most and Roberts on Roger Williams.

It's Chris Arnson at gmail .com chris Arn z n at gmail .com

and please give us your first name at least Your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA and only

remain anonymous.

If your question involves a personal and private matter and we now have Moston Roberts back with us to continue our discussion

on Roger Williams Specifically Specifically his book titled the subversive

Puritan Roger Williams and freedom of conscience a publication of evangelical press by the way before I forget

I want to give a shout out to a Pastor who is recently my pastor at

Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania David Campbell.

Who is a native of Scotland and after pastoring Grace Baptist Church for

14 years?

He was pastoring there long before I arrived.

I only arrived in 2014 but I became a very good friend of his and he

took a call to the North Preston Evangelical Church in North Preston England, and I

know in fact I discovered last time.

I think it was after the first interview We did with Moston Roberts was over.

I discovered that David Campbell is a friend of our guest and how close is The congregation

the Welland Evangelical Church to North Preston Evangelical Church.

180 200 miles away.

Okay, Preston from Welland.

Yeah, which English terms is quite a long waning in America.

It's just a hop skip and a jump.

Well, very few people drive that distance to go to church though.

Yeah.

But if anybody wants more information about this church that is pastored by one of my former

pastors David Campbell North Preston Evangelical Church in North Preston, England the

northern part of England.

The website is NPEC .org .uk.

That's NP for North Preston EC for Evangelical Church .org .uk and

hello, David Campbell if you're listening and send my love to your lovely bride.

And I hope to have you back on the program as well.

And it was so delighted to hear that several people Through hearing about the North Preston Evangelical Church on Iron

Trip and Zion radio have visited that church or at least Inquired about it.

So I am looking forward to hear more good news about that.

Okay.

Now we are going to continue our discussion.

If you could I want to make sure that things that we didn't have time to address last time are are

Brought up by you and explained as far as the history and the legacy of Roger

Williams that you want to make sure are Remembered by our listeners when the when they listen to these

two parts of this discussion.

Okay, sure.

Let me just get just one or two little interesting little insights about Williams personally first which were more

anecdotal than possible.

He was actually a

chap

and the

lady of

the

house.

And.

Some of the letters some of that we have some letters that Williams wrote to this elderly lady at the time.

Well, you know, as I said, there are times to give an elderly ladies.

The tone of the tone of this obviously disappointed young man in giving this lady advice.

I feel the feel the revenge coming through in the past rude advice, but he did marry happily

Mary Barnard who was his lifelong partner and they both live.

I one

thing

that

in

it which

echoes

me

says

we are living.

He Said it

wonderful.

Just like awful is

used in an

entirely different way.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, we wonderful.

Trust me.

It's

not

wonderful,

you

know,

I

think

that

we

should

clarify.

Since it's been redefined in our day by leftists Separation of church and

state is really the idea or the promise of Thomas Jefferson to

encourage specifically Baptists in America that the

government would not intrude upon their beliefs and practice as

People outside of any Established religion like the Church of England or something.

Yeah, people were afraid that the the United States would establish a church which the Constitution says there will be

not in an establishing Of a religion.

So unlike what the liberals and leftists say today that they don't want Christians influencing The state

or the government the idea was really that the government would not intrude upon the beliefs and practices

of the church.

Well, that's why I mean and I think you see There's a good book on

separation years ago and he I

Ames really was concerned.

And if you're concerned about liberty and you're going to

be concerned at free exercise

Amendment as

much I don't know whether I'm

not sure I and

that's the

tradition

that's come down and certainly the 20th played out.

By the way that so

yeah, there is you

know, there has been

a real

deterioration.

Yeah, the the amendment on that there will be no establishing of a religion.

That's right, because the separation of church and state.

A lot of people wrongly think that that is in the Constitution and it's not.

That that phrase is not anyway.

The separate.

Know that you know, it's not that separate.

The phrase isn't no it's a non -establishment.

Okay, we

have.

Let's see here Harrison and Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania.

Harrison s how well -known was Roger Williams in his own

day and how Highly was he respected and regarded by his contemporaries.

Lovely very well known in New England.

Now

he he

went he

arrived in he then went to Plymouth.

Liked by them, but they because

I think it's

fair to say in the

relatives.

He also became known in England because when he came

in doing he

wrote a

book

and He became a

very well -known and he became much very respected.

He also he

made

personal

Henry Vane the young

Henry

Vane

moved

into

elevated circles.

And I think it's

safe to

say that it

does answer.

That's

a long answer to a short question.

And of course John Milton who you mentioned.

Who?

Was a friend or acquaintance of Roger Williams.

Is most known for his poem Paradise Lost.

Paradise Lost in fact.

Milton.

Milton's cottage in New York

30 miles from where I live.

Wow.

He's very famous.

All which is named after

after

we have.

Let's see.

Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania wants to know.

The 1689 London Baptist Conferee.

Confession of faith would have been drafted during Roger Williams lifetime.

Do you know whether or not he supported it and adopted it?

No, I there's no reference in any I think.

I think the first London can write

though, but it would certainly been going on within Williams his life.

In fact, did he live long enough to see the 1689 confession arrived?

No, he didn't quite.

He died in six.

Only around for the first one.

He'd have been around for the first one, but not for the fact He didn't seem to have a lot of

engagement with was he a

Calvinist.

I Believe he was a yes.

I believe he was.

He could almost

be this

but I think again, I think it would be unfair to accuse him of that because he.

He did.

They're just

sort of theology his

and his many general theology.

He wouldn't have been a coward.

Are you from Presbyterian?

Are you familiar with his understanding of the Atonement?

Did he believe in a definite or Limited Atonement or a particular redemption.

Don't.

He

went

to

England

and

tried

to

do that

which it can't

rise out

to

him

as father

the hypocrite

isn't

there.

The Submission.

We

have to go

to our last break.

It's going to be much more brief than the previous one and.

So if you have a question send it in immediately to Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Before we run out of time Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Mostyn Roberts and the last segment of our interview on Roger Williams.

Don't go away.

I'm

pastor Billy Linhart of Sovereign Grace Particular Baptist Church of San Angelo, Texas.

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as host of iron sharpens iron radio.

I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

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My name is James Renahan, and I'm the president of IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.

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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God?

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If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

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Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said.

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Pruessli has no brains of his own.

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Hi, this is John Sampson pastor of Kings Church in Peoria, Arizona.

Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the iron sharpens iron podcast.

I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity.

He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key

doctrines of the Christian faith.

I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing one of the very few safe places on the Internet

Where folk won't be led astray.

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide.

This is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.

And knowing this it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry.

In prayer and in finances.

I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting iron

sharpens iron.

Financially, would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly

partner with this ministry?

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would.

All the details can be found at iron sharpens iron Radio .com where you can click support that's

iron sharpens iron radio.

Dot -com

every day at thousands of community centers high schools middle schools juvenile institutions

Coffee shops and local hangouts.

Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus.

We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus.

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong

journey of following Christ.

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959.

We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement To

youths in need all over the country and around the world.

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future Volunteer.

Donate pray or all of the above for details.

Call Long Island Youth for Christ at 6 3 1 3 8 5 8 333

that's 6 3 1 3 8 5 8 3 3 3 or

visit liy fc .org That's liy

fc .org.

Listening to Christian radio can be a big gamble.

Spiritually, even many of the major Christian networks that include excellent biblically faithful teachers on

their lineup Sadly often also include the worst of doctrinally dangerous heretics.

If you are a lover of the doctrines of Sovereign Grace You need not fear listening 24 hours a day to

first love radio org.

They feature Christ centered programming from Reformed pastors and teachers.

You can rely upon for theological soundness and biblical faithfulness.

Such as dr. W are downing dr. Peter masters pastor Joe Jackowitz pastor

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First love radio org also live streams my iron sharpens iron radio program daily.

Please stick around on first love radio org after iron sharpens iron radio is over to continue

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Spread the word about first love radio org.

Chris Arnson host of iron sharpens iron radio here.

I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.

His name is Dan, but if you go Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer.

But not the type that typically comes to mind.

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself.

Recently, he wrote a book titled consider the evidence for the Bible.

Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword.

Dan also has a master's degree in theology.

Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states.

He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country.

Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy and currently his firm has over 100

cases That have settled for 1 million dollars or more and in approximately 10

different states in Illinois his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's

history in New York his case involving a paralyzed police officer.

Made the front page of the law journal if you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice

claim in any state I recommend that you call Dan.

Consultations are free.

There is no fee unless you win Dan, but a few

goes number is 1 800 6 6 9 4 8 7 8 1 800 6 6 9 4 8 7 8 or

email me for Dan's contact information at Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

That's Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

And I was so delighted to hear that a member of the iron sharpens iron radio audience.

Just had her medical malpractice case accepted by the law firm of Dan, but if you go,

but if you go and associates.

Please contact them if you are in a similar circumstance or have a similar need.

Call them at 800 6 6 9 4 8 7 8 800 6 6 9 4 8 7 8.

Dan's advertising contract is up for renewal next month.

So the more people that contact him the more likely he's gonna renew that contract and we need Dan To keep

iron sharpens iron radio on the air and we thank Dan.

But if you go, but if you go and associates for doing that, we now are back with must and Roberts if you could

most in in our final minutes.

Just leave our audience with what you most want etched in their hearts and minds in regard to this great figure

from Christian history Roger Williams.

I'm gonna be very brave.

Let me just try to summarize what if it looks like the early American history.

I think in some ways you could see American

co -pioneer.

Without a

doubt the

and

this

is where

the

only but I think I

think I

would

say that

Negotiations

and I

think he suits him

not so much

and

the importance of discussion

and

debate

time again.

And he was willing to discuss.

I think that's very.

Those are a

number of things.

Yes, and I think we could even have you back for part three of this discussion.

It's so fascinating and deep and you seem to have such a high appreciation of American freedom.

I think I could even invite a Brit like you to a 4th of July barbecue.

I Want to remind our listeners that you could get the subversive Puritan Roger Williams and freedom of

conscience from one of our sponsors CV BBS comm.

CV BBS comm a publication of Evangelical press.

I want to thank you so much most in for being on the show.

I look forward to your return.

Actually, he's returning this Friday folks the 5th of July to discuss Francis Schaefer.

So mark your calendars must and we'll be back to discuss Francis Schaefer.

God willing this Friday I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives.

Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.