July 2, 2019 Show with Mostyn Roberts on “The Subversive Puritan: Roger Williams & Freedom of Conscience”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania It's iron sharpens iron This is a radio platform in which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation

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To make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host

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Chris Arnzen Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet

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Earth listening via live -streaming at Iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this second day of July 2019

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I just got back From Franklin, Tennessee over the weekend and had such a phenomenal time

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At the John Bunyan conference a conference that I attended regularly as a new

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Christian in the late 1980s early 1990s and This is a conference that was hosted primarily by the late

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John G Riesinger a pioneer amongst the

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Calvinistic Baptists During the resurgence of the beliefs of sovereign grace amongst

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Baptists in the mid 19th century. I'm sorry John wasn't that old the mid 20th century

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And John was a friend of mine and used to love to go hear him speak even though John and I had some

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Differences on theology. I still learned a great deal from him as I attended those conferences

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With my friend the late Don blend the Pastor for many years at First Baptist Church of Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York which was the church that my late wife was a member of prior to our marriage and I just have so many fond memories of the

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John Bunyan conference The right -hand man of John Riesinger during those years was

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Fred Zaspel Helping to run those conferences. So this was the first John Bunyan conference.

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I attended since the 1990s It was held this time as opposed to Pennsylvania where it always used to be held

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It was held in Franklin, Tennessee at Grace Church at Franklin pastored by my friend

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Bill Sasser And I had such a wonderful time with Bill and his lovely wife Lynn and so many of my old friends

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From the old days at the John Bunyan conference and also I have met a number of new friends

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New acquaintances who I am confident will become friends. So I am really looking forward to Interviewing many of the folks that were involved in this conference.

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I Also had a wonderful time on my way down to Franklin, Tennessee with my friend

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Roger Salter and his wife Maureen we had a wonderful lunch in an

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Indian restaurant that they like to frequent there in Birmingham, Alabama and It was so great to see

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Roger he is a Reformed Anglican Rector in Birmingham, Alabama at st.

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Matthew's a very conservative Calvinistic low church. Well, actually, I think that Roger might be actually more of a

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Higher church Reformed Anglican, but he's very Calvinistic and Protestant and It was just a blessed time fellowshipping with them and then on the way back from Tennessee while on my way here to Pennsylvania.

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I made a pit stop Unexpectedly for two days it was supposed to be for one but Had a really wonderful time with a listener or should

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I say two listeners in My audience that have become I believe lifelong friends as of last week

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I'm speaking of Sterling Vander Worker And his wife Bronnie what wonderful hospitable hosts they were welcoming me into their home for rest and relaxation along the journey and I am looking forward to Continuing and building a friendship that we began last week

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Sterling Vander Worker is also going to be a new advertiser on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. He is the owner of Royal Diadem Jewelers there in Greensboro, North Carolina so keep your ears open for that that New sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, but today

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I am so thrilled to have on the first live program since my return from Franklin, Tennessee I'm having back on the program

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Mostyn Roberts who is minister of the Welland Evangelical Church in Hertfordshire United Kingdom, and he's the author of a biography on Francis Schaeffer in Evangelical Press's bite -sized biography series and We are going to be discussing part two of a discussion that we began a number of weeks ago the subversive

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Puritan Roger Williams and freedom of conscience, which is the latest book by Mostyn Roberts and It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Mostyn Roberts Delighted to be back again

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Yeah, I'd like to do if we can do better. I can do better anyway, but I Wouldn't complain about yourself.

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I thought you did a wonderful job Anyway, no, it's nice to be back with you again And thank you for the invitation and for anybody listening who did not hear part one of our interview on the subvert

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Subversive Puritan Roger Williams and freedom of conscience. You can go to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio archives iron sharpens iron radio .com

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And of course after this live show is over You can look up in the past programs or past shows podcast section

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There is a search engine where you can type in his first name that I definitely never had another guest named

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Mostyn So if you typed in his first name M -O -S -T -Y -N, M as in Michael, O -S as in Sam, T as in Thomas, Y -N as in Nancy That will immediately bring up the interview the previous interview that we had with pastor

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Mostyn Roberts on the same Subject and we are going to expand on this

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Theme and address things that we did not address during our first interview because it is such a rich subject the life of this

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Very unusual and very important figure in church history Roger Williams Before we go into the part two of that discussion

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Pastor Mostyn, why don't you remind our listeners for those of you who? heard you last time or Introduce for the very first time those that missed your first interview introduce our listeners to the

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Welland Evangelical Church in Hertfordshire United Kingdom Sure, I've been the the pastor at Welland Evangelical Church for Just over 20 years now

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My own history is I was a Lawyer I trained in law and practiced in law in this country for a time

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Went into the ministry retrained in theology I was I was in the church in the north of England for a while But then

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I came to Welland in Hertfordshire, which is about 15 miles north of London in 1998 and It's a it's a it's independent

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Reformed church, it's an evangelical church. We We don't we're not confessional in the sense that we sign up to confession but if we did it would be the

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Baptist London Confession of 1689 where we are a baptistic church and reformed in theology

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And we were quite a small Middle middle sized church in English standards probably about 60 members mixed range of ages and Quite conservative in our style of worship and fundamentally believing in the preaching and expanding of the

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Word of God Which I do with on Sundays twice and usually on a

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Wednesday night at our Bible study. So yeah, we that's where we are And if you're ever in this part of the country, you can look on our website and you'd be most welcome to Come and visit us

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Yes, let me remind our listeners of that website right now. It's Welland, which is spelt

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Wel Wyn never expect the UK or the

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Welsh or Anybody from that area of the world to spell things the way you would expect them to It's Wel Wyn dash or hyphen

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Evangelical dot org dot UK. That's Wel Wyn dash evangelical dot org dot

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UK and we'll be repeating that hopefully later on in the program uh let us begin now with the theme again the title of your book because I want you to explain something perhaps in more depth than we ever did during part one of our interview and I lay the blame at myself because I don't know if I ever asked you to do to in detail define freedom of conscience

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But since that is a vital thing to remember in the legacy of Roger Williams What exactly are you speaking of when you say freedom of conscience or when you think of Roger Williams contribution to church history well

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Freedom of conscience became an issue in the at the period of the

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Reformation and I'm not suggesting it was not an issue before then But we all remember how

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Martin Luther when he was challenged about his beliefs that famously here I stand

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I can do no other and he Fundamentally stood on it was neither safe.

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He said nor right to go against conscience and So it for Protestants it became it became fundamentally important that you had freedom to believe

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The Bible to worship God according to your conscience according to the Word of God and To Have the freedom to do so they weren't initially so concerned about other freedoms which later became important freedom of assembly and so forth the freedom of conscience is very much the freedom of the individual soul to Respond to God as God's Word required and this developed under not so much during the 16th century but much more in the 17th century under the

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Puritans and they Became it became much more important for them to be able to have freedom to recognize that God is the sole

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Lord of the conscience that was the issue and no Intermediary Be it church or state should stand between and force people

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To do that, which is against conscience or prevent them to doing that which was according to conscience now the

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Puritans generally a mainstream was somewhat Inconsistent shall we say they they they fought for conscience themselves, but they certainly didn't believe in Wholesale liberty of conscience even freedom of conscience for anybody else, right?

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And when you say that was basically the same for the magisterial Reformers, yeah, they they've they believed in it most intensely for themselves because yeah

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Many of them were being tortured and executed by the Church of Rome But once they gained a stronghold somewhere, they unfortunately abused the same power that roamed it.

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That is the problem I mean it is ironic that William Prynne the famous Puritan who was Suffered himself in the 1630s in England for and had his ears cropped

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I think for opposing Charles actually was enjoined in burning

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William Roger Williams's book ten years later when Williams called for liberty conscience, you know, generally they couldn't see that it

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It was anything but chaotic. At least he burned the book and not the man himself. They didn't burn the man himself

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Largely because he'd fled back to America by He wasn't in even England when his book was published, right so he's what he was wiser, but I think too that they

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Believed you know, there's people people like Williams then drawing on People like Thomas Helwes who had written a book called the mystery of iniquity in the 16

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Teens or something like that and John Merton who is now a general Baptist who went to prison for his beliefs

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They began to say very clearly. You shouldn't that the King should not try exercise rights over people's conscience.

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You should allow freedom of worship and so forth and Williams seems to have drawn on these

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But it he is the first Significant figure widely published to have called for complete liberty of conscience even for Roman Catholics and atheists

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Which even John Milton and John Locke who succeeded in the central intellectual? Successors of Williams or at least

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Milton was contemporary Locke was like his successor Weren't allowed when prepared to do and of course that is not to be confused with ecumenism

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Especially not really not especially modern ecumenism There's all kinds of crazy

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Affiliations with people who worship together and they're worshiping in reality different gods. Well, that's right

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I mean and and Williams was very clear. He did not agree with Roman Catholicism.

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Obviously, he didn't agree with atheism He didn't agree with Quakers And I think I did say last time about how his debates

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Williams's debates with Quakers in in Rhode Island in in 1670 and Interestingly, the only book that Boston was prepared to publish of Williams was his debates with the

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Quakers Because he was actually then they could see he was actually standing for what they would regard as orthodox biblical

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Christianity So it's very interesting that in relation to the Quakers Williams was with them, you know

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Acceptable to Boston and they actually published published his Report of those debates which is interesting now

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Don't you think there are according to a an accurate definition of freedom of conscience at least?

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Yeah, the freedom of conscience that was desired by Roger Williams and even Reformers before him.

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Yeah, there there there are greater liberties expected in the freedom of conscience

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When you are speaking of your neighbors then those within the confines of your own congregation

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Obviously, there is a certain level of freedom of conscience otherwise, you're in a cult if everybody is

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Required to believe exactly the same thing in every single matter But at the same time when you're under the headship of a local congregation

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Yeah, there are there is more of a restriction involved in what you can believe. Yeah Yeah, I mean don't forget we we've already got

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I went spent the last time time off I'm talking but Williams is rather peculiar ideas about that The church has such that he felt that church was in a kind of suspended period and their groups witnesses

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Williams would have certainly if you if you commit yourself a covenant to join here to gather together

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Then you you as a matter of conscience should obey what you promised to do in in terms of a gathered community

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But what he was saying is hit me his big argument were that shall

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I just write I did just some area I represent if I summarize these in in my chapter on bloody tenant

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But the big book on this issue with the bloody tenant of persecution Which is possibly the only book that anybody will even have heard of the

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Williams wrote But it's it's it's still available. You can get it, you know Published if you if you wish to but he said

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God alone is Lord of the conscience No civil magistrate no king nor Caesar have any power over the souls or consciences of their subject in the matters of God and the crown of Jesus Then he says coercion then he would go another argument would be

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Coercion coercing consciences doesn't work because conscience is subject to the rule of understanding

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That's the important he would say You the conscience follows the understanding in order to change people's behavior you've got it you've got to deal with the mind

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You've got to use you've got to affect the reason by argument and persuasion

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This is why the Bible only said says that our only instruments in religion are the words of the

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Spirit Of our sword and the Spirit himself so in other words, you know, what it what is the what is the

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Christian way of changing people's minds and And I'm changing that car is is by preaching teaching

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And in the power of the Spirit and That then leads to a change in people's

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Consciences, but he says you can't you can't force the conscience from outside He says coercion also creates hypocrites because what happens is people out of fear of force

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Which would have happened would then start saying they believe things they don't right? I mean, it's quite wrong to put people in that position of having to believe say they believe something just for the sake of it

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That's interesting that John Cotton who was a godly man There's no doubt about John Cotton was a great preacher and was greatly used by God but on this issue he was very much in the traditional line and he would argue you see that you if you you if you disagree with the

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Bible and It came down to this if you if you disagree with the

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Bible as interpreted by us Puritans For Example, you know even even issues of creed of baptism would be regarded as almost as a capital offense, right?

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I mean pretty was pretty serious, you know to be a Baptist was a pretty serious thing in, Massachusetts You wouldn't have wanted you would they were

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Persecuted right later on but and John Cotton would say, you know you if if you

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I disagree with Orthodoxy basically you cannot be doing that out of conscience.

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You are you were offending against your conscience? So it boiled down to the fact that only really somebody who a

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Christian who agreed with the Orthodox puritan interpretation could be said to be have a good conscience and Williams, you know argued fiercely against it

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He says no conscience is what a man or a woman conscientiously believes. They may be wrong

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But you've got to deal with them in other we can't deal with them by force either by church force or state force right, the only the only way a person is

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In any way opposed or restricted biblically when they are

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Refusing to believe in biblical orthodoxy or they are adopting heresy is the either the refusal

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To permit membership for these people and refusal to permit baptism and so on or the excommunication of that person if they've already

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Become a member. We are we are not to threaten the physical violence or prison or anything like that that is unfortunately tragically has been a part of our history and it's even more bizarre when

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Calvinists or reform people have ever been involved in that because you know, obviously we believe that only a miracle of the

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Holy Spirit working a miracle of regeneration in the heart of a dead lost sinner

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Can bring that person to true saving faith and since we have enough problem with false professors among us

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Why would we want to coerce with violence the the professions of faith of others to join in our ranks?

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We have Reprobates to deal with already in our ranks. Well, yeah,

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I Williams used to point out you see that Cotton would use passages like such as Titus the issues, you know,

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I'm to our issues matters of to do with church discipline in time and in letters and That's the one who kept learning and things like that And he would he would say therefore we must deal with these people

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But he he would he would be applying What was clearly a church? mandate

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To this church to the state So he would say he would say he would say the state should deal with church offenders and things like that And that that was pretty

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I mean, I was pretty widespread that one Samuel Rutherford who is again was a great and godly

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Puritan the Presbyterian of course Wrote wrote very fully in favor of the control of the king's powers in his book

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Lex Rex but he also wrote what the historian Owen Chadwick called as the most able defense of persecution written in the 17th century when he wrote

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Against a large against Williams. I mean Williams had the privilege of having Rutherford actually write a major work very largely against against his own writing and Rutherford would would it would again have said no, you know

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We have if if people won't be listened to the truth and if they won't then we have to have the state has to be involved and To punish these these people who are heretics and so forth

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And they would use sadly Augustine's Treatment of the

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Donatists in the Fourth and fifth centuries, you know as as example.

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So a bad example, I'm afraid goes a long way so they they would But but Williams was was rather adamant all the way through his his his life that he was that every person should have liberty of conscience and not just Christians certainly not just the

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Puritans Right, and if you could now let us know how

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Roger Williams uniquely is

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Connected with this idea of the liberty or freedom of conscience and how he carried that Through his ministry after leaving

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England and entering in the United States Yeah, in fact, I Am assuming you would agree with me.

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I am a reformed Baptist as are you or at least at least you're Baptistic Yeah that I believe that the

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Baptists were really True Reformers and that they continued the

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Reformation even further than their forefathers in the Reformation who are

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Pato Baptists we expunged or shred shedded

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I should say not shredded shedded more of the trappings and baggage of Rome and The issue of the freedom of conscience is even more

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I think clearly and vividly seen and practiced amongst Baptists because typically as a people

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There are some exceptions with denominations amongst Baptist but typically we are a people who believe in the local autonomy of The church or the independence of the local church where there is no hierarchical structure

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Outside the elders of that church other than Christ himself and his word Yeah So you would agree with that that we are oh,

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I would certainly oh, yes. Yes Yeah, I mean I've I've I've and in terms of I would call my I would call myself a

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Baptist Oh, maybe you know without without any hesitation in terms in terms of denomination if I remember such a domination, but But interesting that one of yes,

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I'll come back to James Dean Knowles who is a Baptist minister in 1830s wrote one of the earliest good

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Biographies of Roger Williams, and he said Roger Williams is entitled to the honor of being the first writer in modern times I think he's referring to Anything post 1500 who clearly maintained the absolute right of every man to a full liberty and religious concern now

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Williams as we saw last time started in 1639 With others the first Baptist Church in America in Providence And of course you can visit first Baptist Church in Providence as I was privileged to do a few years ago.

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Is it the same building? No, not the same building, but they do have some interesting maps and plans of the original layouts and you can of all the

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Plots of land that that the the the original settlers in Providence owned and the

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Williams is amongst them And the church was the church is continuous from that but Williams left it after a few months as we also said last time and He himself personally then became what was called a seeker

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He never called himself a seeker But there were groups of people who believed that they were waiting for the true church to come

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And so he never felt Theologically, he never felt able to join

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Another church because he never felt there was a true church in Earth Week And he was wrong in that he was waiting for a return of the

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Apostles or something. He was right. That's right He was waiting for it. They believed that they were the person particular period of history they interpreted revelation chronologically and With they weren't yet at a period when the

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Apostles would come but he looked forward to a time He was never anti church. Unlike your friend Harold camping who you mentioned

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But he did he just didn't believe that there was you know, he was very sad and he lamented in a book

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He wrote to his wife that there wasn't such a thing as a true church So he moved on from the Baptist Although as we saw he also believed in creed of baptism right to the very end

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He wrote a defense of creed of baptism against John Eliot in in the 1670s and things like that Which is interesting that he didn't believe a true church existed and yet he wanted to perpetuate the ordinances of the church and even the

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Lord's Supper, right I Yes, I think I you know I can't honestly say I have no record of what he believed what he did about Lord's Supper after that But I can't be absolutely sure about that But the thing is he he taught it and he he worked it out

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Much more at the civic level. I mean what have to say his his contribution to church discipline

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And an ecclesiology was not great as you would imagine But he worked it out at the civic level.

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His big concern was to allow people Who like himself he felt had been unfairly ejected from Massachusetts They tried to send him back to England John went up to give him in given him a nod and said, you know they're coming to get you

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Roger and Roger Roger ran into the snow and 14 weeks later washed up at Providence And I'd love to get the details on that eventually exactly what you mean by that Okay, right but he he landed he came to Providence and He wanted a place which repeatedly in different ways was to be a place where people could live

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Side by side, whatever you whatever your religion, you know, whatever your religious beliefs or none You could live in a civil state provided you didn't break the laws that your conscience was between you and God and You didn't have to leave because you weren't an

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Orthodox Christian or an Orthodox Puritan, which was the case in Massachusetts, of course You know in the 1650s.

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They hanged three Quakers and Then they found

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Sanctuary in Rhode Island and Hutchinson who was clearly antinomian

30:02

She was clearly antinomian and had and somewhat mystical Just summarizing a very complex issue

30:10

She landed up in Rhode Island, although she was killed by an Indian attack in Connecticut in 1644

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So people and again Williams didn't agree with it. He didn't necessarily agree with these people, you know, he wasn't saying

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Yeah, I agree with your theology and or I agree with you Quakers. No, but this is a place where people can come and and live

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He And so so many did and the interesting thing was that The Rhode Island got a bad name.

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It became known as a sink as a cesspit a sewer a

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Receptacle for all kinds of low life from from the other from the other colonies because they were they were accepting people who were basically

30:59

Not wanted elsewhere well, I want to Picking up on that very statement you just made.

31:07

Yeah I want to ask a question of a listener and have you answer it when we return

31:12

Okay, in fact, I'll also in addition to Reading it now.

31:18

I will forward the email to you. So you'll have it right in front of you and during the commercial break you can look that question over and Answer it to the best of your ability and I'm forwarding that to you now, but I'm also going to read it the question is from Joe in a thigh

31:43

Ireland and Let's see here. I had it right in front of me.

31:48

Okay, here it is Joe in a thigh Ireland says dear brother Chris Thank you for your continued service to our

31:55

Lord. Jesus Christ through the ministry of iron sharpens iron. I have a question for your guest, please From researching the current first Baptist Church of America on their official website

32:06

They boast that they are Roger Williams Baptists in quote but they also celebrate the

32:14

LGBTQ plus movement they appear to be using Roger Williams's view on freedom to worship according to one's conscience

32:22

Free from the interference of the state as justification for their apostasy Can your guest comment on this please is this twisting of the original view of Roger Williams to be to the extreme and he has?

32:35

a second Question that I'll read later when you return from when we return from the break

32:41

That seems that that seems like His question involves what I brought up earlier that there's a difference

32:48

With the freedom of conscience as to what one neighbors may freely do and what you may do underneath the roof and Between or within the walls of the congregation where you are a member.

32:59

Those are two different things. I think so Yeah, I'll know I'll mull that over Chris and when you come back to me great

33:06

If anybody else would like to join us on the air But with a question for our guest

33:11

Mostyn Roberts on Roger Williams, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

33:19

Chris ARN z e n at gmail .com Please as always give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence

33:25

If you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, don't go away

33:31

We'll be right back with Mostyn Roberts and more of our discussion on Roger Williams after these messages from our sponsors

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God bless you As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations a church

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I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey pastored by Alan Dunn Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's

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Baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship performed with faith joy and sobriety discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at GC BC NJ dot

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That's nine zero eight nine nine six seven six five four Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Welcome back.

39:56

This is Chris Arnzen if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with about 90 minutes or less to go is

40:04

Mostyn Roberts minister of the Welland Evangelical Church in Hertfordshire United Kingdom a

40:11

Reformed and Baptist Church in England and we are discussing part two of The subject we began several weeks ago the suburb subversive

40:21

Puritan not easy to say the subversive Puritan Roger Williams and freedom of conscience

40:28

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

40:33

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and Before the break as you know, we had Joe in a thigh

40:42

Ireland and by the way, have you ever been to a thigh? Pastor Mosten me. I think

40:47

I can't you know, I'd be I've been to Ireland County Kildare is over on the

40:53

West Coast, but yeah My mispronouncing

40:58

I think I Would have granted a seat, but I might be wrong. I say

41:03

I think I think I remember in a past email our brother in Ireland Spelt it phonetically and I think it's a thought fine

41:12

But anyway, he said from researching the current First Baptist Church of America on their official website

41:18

They boast that they are Roger William Baptist, but they also celebrate the LGBTQ movement

41:24

Appear to be using Roger Williams views on Freedom to worship according to one's conscience free from the interference of the state as justification for their apostasy

41:34

Can you your guests comment on this, please? Yeah, I think that is

41:41

Misusing Williams, sadly Roger Williams was

41:48

Faithful to the Bible he argued against The Quakers for example who were quite a powerful influence in Rhode Island by 1670s and He argued against their

42:11

Behavior Sometimes women would Parade nude into the streets as kind of a fine so forth and he

42:21

Argued against their what he called spiritual arrogance. He argued against their that would have made a much more interesting label on the

42:29

Quaker Oats box But he he he never

42:35

He always stood up for Scripture he he certainly I Think and in his morality

42:44

There is no question that he would have had any truck with sexual promiscuity or anything other than a biblical view of marriage and sexuality he had probably

42:57

More liberal ideas of divorce than many evangelicals today, but then so did

43:03

John Milton possibly But you know, he would have gone further than we might do but certainly with regard

43:09

I think I think the idea that Williams could be you know, the idea of freedom of conscience can mean complete ignoring of the

43:19

Ten Commandments and biblical morality Would have been

43:25

Anathema to to Williams I mean what I mean this behavior Called today

43:32

LBGTQ+. Yeah, this would have been a

43:40

Scandal and an outrage even amongst pagans in in the norm back in this.

43:46

Oh, yeah I mean that this is not something that was Yeah discussed openly even by most people

43:52

You know, obviously the sin has been around since Old Testament days Yeah, but it's not something that even the lost would publicly normally involve themselves in they might do it in the privacy and darkness of their own homes, but yeah,

44:07

I Have to he would have I mean he for example in one of his works he does

44:16

Yeah, he discusses this idea to which we you can subject

44:24

People to Moral law and he does he

44:32

He said he would support for example Roman Empire when they

44:39

Stopped a poet called Ovid writing a book that was regarded as sexually licentiously licentious

44:47

And Williams says though. Well, that that is quite an acceptable Restraint on people's

44:55

Behavior, so he he did have to grapple with I these ideas About how far you can insist on you know a moral behavior

45:07

Outside the church But but and I I can't imagine he would have tolerated the kind of a

45:17

Morality that is seen in such movements as LBGT or whatever by the way, we have a

45:25

Listener Mary in Cork Ireland who confirmed that the pronunciation is a thigh

45:32

Thank You Mary and And we have

45:37

Joe has a second part of his question or a second question I Would appreciate it if you and the listening audience

45:46

Could pray for me. I lost my job late last year and have been finding it difficult to secure another job since I had an interview last week that I thought went well, but I was unsuccessful

45:57

I have another interview for a similar role tomorrow trusting in the

46:03

Lord for his provision I'm gonna say a very brief. I don't know if I've ever done this on the show, but I'm gonna say a very brief prayer for Joe in a thigh

46:11

Ireland right now father in heaven. We Know that we are to be anxious for nothing.

46:16

You have told us such so, please Lord I ask of you to first of all calm the mind and spirit of Joe in a thigh

46:23

Ireland Give him a confidence and trust That your will will always be what is best for him as you promise in Romans 828 in many other places we ask of you

46:37

Lord to bring him a good -paying job that utilizes his talents and Where he can provide not only for those he loves but also for your church in an adequate fashion

46:49

Please bring these things about quickly Lord We love you, and we thank you for your grace and your good providence and in Jesus name.

46:56

We pray. Amen All right, thank you Joe and keep listening to iron sharpens iron radio and keep spreading the word about the show in a

47:06

Thigh Ireland and beyond and by the way, I wanted to clarify something before when

47:11

I was referring to Us having a more restricted freedom of conscience In regard to those things confined underneath the roof and within the walls of a church.

47:22

I am NOT saying That what we do and believe and practice in the body of Christ is

47:30

Only to be restricted in a building. I was referring to the membership. That was just a different way of saying it

47:36

If you're a member of a church If you're a Bible -believing church, you are only to be permitted to remain in membership if you believe in biblical orthodoxy

47:46

Obviously there should be some Liberty of conscience, but it is much more restrained when you're a member of a church than what you would view as a freedom for your neighbors who could be pagans and all kinds of false members of all kinds of false religions as long as they don't bring about harm to the community, but Anyway, I just thought

48:07

I'd make sure clear that I meant that in regard to membership and you do agree with that Obviously, I think it goes hand in hand with what our guest asked.

48:17

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah So so when you went to that church, did you were you aware that they were as this is

48:22

I guess When I was in America three years ago, we did visit

48:29

Providence and had a very nice time We're very kindly treated there certainly in the state house and in the

48:34

Roger Williams Center in the little park They've created there and we did go to the

48:39

First Providence Church and have a look around Friendly but I think I could see that probably it was it would be more liberal theology certainly than I would be comfortable with today

48:48

So there were those kind of signs there, but I I didn't see anything about the LGBTQ connection at that point of no

48:55

But I I probably would have got the impression A lot of a lot of the mission seems to be involved in social outreach rather than gospel work and things, you know

49:07

Yeah, but it wouldn't be it wouldn't be unique amongst churches like that, of course

49:13

Excuse me when you were Describing briefly in a summary fashion

49:19

Roger Williams exodus from England and coming here to America you referred to it as actually fleeing

49:28

Massachusetts in the snow and then washing up on the shores of Rhode Island. Did you mean that literally or was there?

49:34

I don't know That was that was a figure of speech and I realized immediately is a dangerous one

49:43

Yeah, he had to leave in The January of 1636 it would have been having been exiled from Massachusetts Boston by the courts in in in October of 1916 35 and He hung around he made he didn't obey them

50:09

He was still teaching in his house and and they didn't like this So they've made a rule that he had to leave the country they're going to expatriate it putting the boat back to England and to avoid that he ran having been

50:23

Into and given a nod by John Winthrop who was still personally friendly to so he went out in the winter it's 14 weeks he spent and He writes he refers to this quite a lot in his later correspond

50:36

It obviously made a very deep impression on him this unkind treatment. He received at the hands of his brother Puritan and he

50:45

Was supported and helped by the by the Native Americans this time the Indians But it took 14 weeks until he found himself at Providence and as a famous statement that he the first thing he said is he came on to the rock there

51:07

Where where he landed is what she and me top or you know, which is how what she a friend

51:14

And this this occurs in various sketches and drawings and emblems you see of Rhode Island So no, it's almost certain that he some some historians do think he went around the coast by sea

51:26

But almost certainly he didn't he would it would hardly make he he went across Across land, which of course isn't very far.

51:34

He's about 70 miles Boston to Providence. I Would assume it's not more than that Yeah, I mean didn't a long for us to drive.

51:43

I remember that but he It in the winter months and without you know We had to but the the

51:49

Indians were very kind to them and he I think he never really forgot that he is very He felt very indebted to the

51:56

Indians for this for their kindness to him at that time So I'm assuming that He fled,

52:03

Massachusetts. They for the Puritans in Massachusetts because of his rejection of pedo -baptism

52:09

No, no, no, it was it was That it was for a number of different reasons one was

52:18

He had been saying that the The magistrate should not have any right to impose the first four

52:25

Commandments in other words, they should have not they could impose the last six or although it was certainly not number nine ten

52:31

But five to nine was written relation to the state, but right they couldn't impose religious the religious commandments as it were

52:38

Okay, but he did he did was he ever a pedo -baptist because I know you Been a pedo -baptist up to that up to that point because he he served within a kind of Anglican setup while he was in England as a chaplain and he he would not have

52:55

And so he must have been a pedo -baptist up to some time in the late in the 1630s

53:01

And I at that point he must have become convinced of credo -baptism All the evidence points to his having been read from Baptist writers and People in relation to these beliefs about liberty of conscience separation of church and state and probably the issue of baptism itself

53:20

Okay, we have to go to our midway break right now And this actually also gives our guests the time to phone back in to the

53:28

United States from England because it's you know It's more money if he remains on the phone the entire time

53:34

When he splits it up into two -hour breaks or two -hour segments, I should say it is less expensive so we're going to Welcome must and back after this break.

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He's gonna call back later this is an extended break that we have in the middle of the show and This is because grace life radio 90 .1

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FM in Lake City, Florida Requires a longer break in the middle of our show because they localize iron trip and Zion radio to Lake City, Florida With their own public service announcements and commercials

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What a great time to be in New York City during then during the Christmas season Wow, I just look forward to that very much

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I man an exhibitors booth at the G3 conference did three G's by the way stand for gospel grace and glory and I urge you not only to attend

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Get there by plane train or automobile and especially if you live in Atlanta, you have no excuse.

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I'm sorry I will rebuke you until The Lord returns.

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She don't attend this conference if you live nearby They always have a an extraordinary lineup of speakers at the g3 conference this

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January The theme is worship matters the speakers include Kosti Hinn Who is a reformed

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Even though his uncle is one of the primary figures in that movement. He has renounced this movement as being from the pit of hell and he

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Joel Beeky who I've also known and have called friend since the 1990s

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President of Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan He is on the roster

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Stephen J Lawson and Paul Washer both on the roster at the g3 conference.

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I mentioned providing for church and home and The email address for you to send in questions to our guests most and Roberts on Roger Williams It's Chris Arnson at gmail .com

01:15:24

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the

01:15:34

USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and we now have Moston Roberts back with us to continue our discussion on Roger Williams specifically

01:15:44

Specifically his book titled the subversive Puritan Roger Williams and freedom of conscience a publication of evangelical press

01:15:51

By the way before I forget I want to give a shout -out to a Pastor who was recently my pastor at Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania David Campbell who is a native of Scotland and after pastoring

01:16:08

Grace Baptist Church For 14 years. He was pastoring there long before I arrived.

01:16:13

I only arrived in 2014 But I became a very good friend of his and he took a call to the

01:16:21

North Preston Evangelical Church in North Preston England, and I know in fact

01:16:27

I discovered last time. I think it was after the first interview We did with Moston Roberts was over.

01:16:32

I discovered that David Campbell is a friend of our guest and how close is The congregation the

01:16:38

Welland Evangelical Church to North Preston Evangelical Church 180 200 miles away

01:16:48

Okay, Preston from Welland. Yeah, which English terms is quite a long waning in America. It's just a hop skip and a jump

01:16:55

Well, very few people drive that distance to go to church though Yeah, but if anybody wants more information about this church that is pastored by one of my former pastors

01:17:07

David Campbell North Preston Evangelical Church in North Preston England the northern part of England the website is

01:17:16

NPEC .org .uk That's NP for North Preston EC for Evangelical Church .org

01:17:23

.uk and hello, David Campbell if you're listening and send my love to your lovely bride

01:17:28

And I hope to have you back on the program as well And I was so delighted to hear that several people Through hearing about the

01:17:35

North Preston Evangelical Church on Iron Trip and Zion radio have visited that church or at least Inquired about it, so I am looking forward to hear more good news about that Okay.

01:17:45

Now we are going to continue our discussion if you could I want to make sure that things that we didn't have time to address last time are are brought up by you and explained as far as The history and the legacy of Roger Williams that you want to make sure are

01:18:03

Remembered by our listeners when the when they listen to these two parts of this discussion

01:18:09

Okay, sure Let me just get just one or two little interesting little insights about Williams personally first which were more anecdotal than possibly

01:18:20

Significant there was a lovely answer when he was actually a chaplain in this big nobleman's house in in in Essex when in the 18 months or so off between Cambridge and going to America and it was a

01:18:35

The people the people there were very Puritan there were the men were very involved in Parliament he so he so he was on the edge of he was on the edge of what was going on in Parliament and and the the

01:18:44

Puritan movement and the emigration movement to America and this kind of thing, but he fell in love with a lady called

01:18:50

Jane Wally who was actually a cousin of Oliver Cromwell, but unfortunately, Jane was socially a few steps above Williams and the lady of the house

01:19:00

Lady Barrington very curtly refused Williams her her nieces hand in marriage

01:19:08

And Some of the letters some of that we have some letters that Williams wrote to this elderly lady at the time well, you know, as I said, there are times to give an elderly lady spiritual advice and there are times not to The tone of this obviously disappointed young man in giving this lady advice about her her

01:19:29

Advancing years and she needed to be sure of where her soul was going You could feel the revenge coming through in the past rude advice, but he did marry happily

01:19:38

Mary Barnard who was his lifelong partner and they both lived into their 70s and 80s and all their children survived them it's wonderful actually because Puritan children in England like John Owen, you know, their children died often pre -deceased them

01:19:53

But in England in New England, they seem to have been a lot healthier they survived so he married and He came with her she married they came together to New England Yeah, I one thing that in in 1651 he wrote a letter to John Endicott who was a one of the

01:20:17

Establishment men he had been governor, but he wasn't governor after John Winthrop arrived in in Massachusetts and Boston and Williams it was it was following the

01:20:29

Punishment of certain Baptists like Obadiah Holmes for Hell -holding

01:20:36

Meetings which were certainly illegal. They weren't supposed to be holding these meetings, but they've been meeting with an elderly

01:20:42

Baptist in in in Massachusetts and Williams wrote to Endicott somewhat disappointed and to protest that the

01:20:51

Way Endicott had dealt with with these people and toward the end of his letter He uses a phrase which

01:20:57

I which echoes me says we are living he said in wonderful searching disputing and dissenting times and Why wonderful there?

01:21:06

He doesn't mean quite what we mean by wonderful. Why wonderful if he would have meant something more like Serious or or inspiring but you know, it's not wonderful.

01:21:17

It's just like awful is used in an entirely different way. Yeah That's right. Yeah, we're wonderful.

01:21:22

Trust me. It's like Disney Pixar. It's not wonderful, you know and but to us it's the one but but I think

01:21:30

It's that speaks to me because we we are living in times When Christianity is on the back foot in the

01:21:36

West we know that only too well We are but but you know, we're seeing the collapse of Christian culture

01:21:45

We we've we have analyses of it. We have people lamenting it I Think one of the things that that Williams does is is teaches

01:21:56

Me at least that we should be seeing Firstly remembering that God is not

01:22:01

I'd have been out of control of all this the the the the decay of Culture the

01:22:08

Christian culture is not something which God is not sovereign over I think secondly to see

01:22:17

Opportunity here. You feel that with Williams. He he had he was he was not

01:22:24

Dismayed in the least about not having a Christian culture around him. In fact, he was he was anti what he called

01:22:31

Christendom He felt Christendom needed to be as converted at least as much as paganism the and and I Sometimes wonder if our generation of Christians we have got so used over the last

01:22:46

Couple of hundred years possibly to having and longer in Britain, but it was

01:22:53

You know wasn't as wonderful as we think to having what we call a Christian culture. I wonder if if we have

01:23:00

Become bit spoiled We we complain bitterly we we we whinge about what we're losing

01:23:09

We tend to use weapons of the world rather than the weapons of our spiritual warfare

01:23:15

To build the kingdom and I sometimes wonder if we are actually utterly Almost equating

01:23:23

Christian culture with the kingdom of God. I don't I'm not sure Many do that, but I think it's a danger

01:23:31

And I'm wondering as far as we're spending a lot of time So trying to prop up this crumbling

01:23:38

Christian culture rather than seeing These are there are wonderful opportunities here for for the gospel

01:23:46

We're becoming rather negative a bit defeatist and rather despairing almost Whereas in fact,

01:23:52

I would say well, let you know that there are there are things to be done here. We don't need a

01:23:59

Christian culture to be Christian and I think Williams most definitely understood that Like that I think there are things there that that he would also teach

01:24:10

I think to be skeptical He would he looked at Chris Christendom and said well, yeah, and how

01:24:15

Christian was it? You know and he would say if you if you try to fossilize Christianity and cultural form and he looked back on English history over his last cent of the century before him

01:24:27

And he would say well Henry VIII would have fossilized would have you know?

01:24:33

Would have maintained a church in one form and then you had Edward who would have been very

01:24:39

Protestant Mary would have been very Catholic Elizabeth was a mixture James would have been pragmatic, but where do you go once you start trying to Trying to fix a form of Christianity and once particularly you give the state the right to do that You're running into trouble

01:25:04

You know, so his We've talked about his liberty of conscience his second string to his bow is very much the separation of church and state and and and also, you know the his his lack of expectation

01:25:20

From Christian culture to actually do anything very much for the church

01:25:25

So what am I saying? I? Feel I've read Williams.

01:25:31

I study Williams. I found I resonated with him despite his funny ideas, which I many of which

01:25:36

I do not share There was something about holding on to the

01:25:43

Core of the Christian faith in the most adverse of circumstances and and having confidence in God rather than in The Christian world around this our

01:25:58

Christian culture which We are losing, you know So yeah, those are some of the things

01:26:04

I which I thought Williams is helpful and I think that we should clarify Since it's been redefined in our day by leftists

01:26:14

Separation of church and state is really the idea or the promise of Thomas Jefferson to encourage specifically

01:26:22

Baptists In America that government would not intrude upon their beliefs and practice as People outside of any established religion like the

01:26:37

Church of England or something Yeah, people were afraid that the the United States would establish a church

01:26:43

Which the Constitution says there will be not an establishing of a religion So unlike what the liberals and leftists say today that they don't want

01:26:52

Christians influencing The state or the government the idea was really that the government would not intrude upon the beliefs and practices of the church

01:27:01

Well, that's why I mean and I think you see There's a good book on separation of church and state by an uncle

01:27:07

Timothy Hall which came out about 20 years ago and he I he analyzes

01:27:13

Roger Williams and Jefferson and so forth So that Williams really was concerned for liberty of conscience

01:27:20

And if you're concerned about liberty of conscience, you're going to be concerned about liberty of conscience for everybody And you're going to be concerned about the free exercise of Religion which is part of the

01:27:32

First Amendment as much as you are about a non -establishment But Timothy Hall points that that what?

01:27:38

Jefferson was doing was really saying well, we just don't want religion to be Influencing the state too much.

01:27:45

We don't want too much influence. You know religious influence on the state I'm I don't know whether I'm not sure I whether his analysis of that is absolutely correct, but it seems to me reasonable and so we're and so Jefferson Hall argues is really more concerned about non -establishment less concerned about free exercise and That's the tradition that's come down and in certainly the 20th and 21st century is being played out by the

01:28:14

Supreme Court in a way that has made non -establishment of Arbitrary of religion non -establishment of a church

01:28:26

Equivalent to there should be no religious religious expression in the public square at all

01:28:32

And also certainly we're not going to be worried too much about free exercise So, yeah, there is you know, there has been a real deterioration of the correct and fair interpretation of that amendment,

01:28:47

I think Particularly by the court's decisions over the last 50 years or so.

01:28:53

Yeah, the the amendment on that. There will be no establishing of a religion That's right Because the separation of church and state a lot of people wrongly think that that is in the

01:29:00

Constitution and it's not That that phrase is not anyway The separate know that you know, it's not that separate the phrase isn't no, it's a non -establishment of a church

01:29:11

Yeah, the separation of church and state isn't of such in the in the in the Constitution okay, we have

01:29:18

Let's see here Harrison and Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania Harrison asks how well -known was

01:29:26

Roger Williams in his own day and how Highly was he respected and regarded by his contemporaries?

01:29:36

Oh That's a lovely question he was very well known in New England Now he he went he arrived in in Boston he he got well known because of his

01:29:51

What there was seen as awkwardness about Wanting liberty to To to To Worship in ways that the

01:30:06

Congregational establishment didn't agree with he then went to Plymouth. So we got well known by Bradford and Brewster Liked by them, but they began to think he was developing strange ideas because he

01:30:19

Didn't agree that the king had the right to give the land to the Americans up in there So he went back to so I think it's fair to say in The relatively small communities as they were on the

01:30:31

East Coast in those days he would have been pretty well known He also became known in England Because when he came into England 1642 he came back to England He wrote a book his first work was a key to the language of America which was an analysis and a kind of grammar and phrase book and somewhat of a

01:30:52

An anthropological analysis of the Native Americans either the Wampanoag in and Narragansett and He became any peak it that actually opened a lot of doors for him became very well known and He became much very respected.

01:31:11

He also he made personal friends with John Milton The poet he was he taught

01:31:18

Milton Dutch and Milton helped him refresh his Hebrew and other languages when they were in England he also knew

01:31:25

Oliver Cromwell on first -name terms and He was particularly friendly with Henry Vane the

01:31:31

Younger who? was a governor of Massachusetts England Massachusetts Bay for a time sadly

01:31:41

Henry Vane moved into kind of mystical circles around Hutchinson and Henry Vane was eventually

01:31:47

Executed by Charles the second after being it Along with Oliver Cromwell a regicide

01:31:54

But so he was moving in quite elevated circles, and I think it's safe to say his works were notorious

01:32:05

In some circles and no doubt very well accepted and others amongst separatists his work particularly the bloody tenant was widely used and quoted and amongst some of the sects like the lever lows and Stiggers and so forth some of the more extreme sects.

01:32:23

He was obviously very popular because he taught complete liberty of conscience and separation of church and state

01:32:29

So yeah, he was rather he yeah, sorry that it does answer That's a long answer to a short question and of course

01:32:37

John Milton who you mentioned who? Was a friend or acquaintance of Roger Williams is most known for his poem

01:32:43

Paradise Lost Paradise lost that's right and paradise regained in fact

01:32:49

Milton Milton's cottage I am is about is about 30 30 miles from where I live

01:32:54

Wow where he wrote that work and Interesting to go that he is very famous also for a dirty a defense

01:33:01

Not a freedom of conscience was a defense of freedom of speech and freedom of the press called Areopagitica Which is named after after the

01:33:09

Areopagus on on Mars Hill in Act 17? So Milton is very known for that he was he was great friends with with with Williams at that time we have

01:33:19

Let's see Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania wants to know the 1689

01:33:27

London Baptist Confere Confession of faith would have been drafted during Roger Williams lifetime.

01:33:34

Do you know whether or not he supported it and adopted it? No, I there's no reference in any of Williams's writings to Any going any doings of the

01:33:50

English Baptists at that point? They I think I think the first London Confession was 1644

01:33:56

Right, but it would certainly been going on within Williams's lifetime But there are no references that I recall to any reformed

01:34:06

Baptist writings or confessions In Williams's works

01:34:12

In fact, did he live long enough to see the 1689 confession arrive?

01:34:19

No, he didn't quite he died in 1683 Only around for the first one either be around for the first one, but not for the second

01:34:30

But he he didn't seem to have a lot of engagement with reformed Baptists Certainly in in in England was he a

01:34:39

Calvinist? I Believe he was a yes. I believe he was a Calvinist his writings are full of the

01:34:49

Sovereignty of God he talks about the elect Can't be deceived.

01:34:54

He clearly believed in the doctrine of election. In fact some of his phrases he

01:35:01

He could almost be described as Virgil hypercalvinism but I think again,

01:35:08

I think it would be unfair to accuse him of that because he He did they're just sort of the kind of phrase one which anyone could carelessly could use, you know but That so I I but I certainly believe he that the

01:35:24

Calvinist in terms of the Soteriology his and his many general theology, but He would have been a

01:35:32

Calvinist in terms of his churchmanship Does it mean a prosecutor?

01:35:38

Are you familiar with his understanding of the Atonement that he believe in a definite or limited

01:35:45

Atonement or particular redemption I Don't know that I recall reading

01:35:54

Anything specifically where he deals with that? It No, I I he certainly never

01:36:06

Questions nothing which nothing which would make me have led me to believe that he disbelieved in it

01:36:12

But you see most of his writings were Polemical and to do with conscience church and state

01:36:26

To do with political issues is interesting his writings were the

01:36:32

When he went to he went to England in 1642 to 1640 1643 1644 to try to Get a charter and he succeeded in getting a charter from the

01:36:43

Parliament He had to go again ten years later and was there from 1652 to 1654 Both visits to England he popped he had five books published because at Boston wouldn't publish his books so he he got he got them published in London and One of it one of his loveliest works is a book he initially wrote for his wife and It's called the

01:37:15

Experiments of spiritual life and health and He'd written it in 1650 when he his wife had been seriously ill then and it but he wrote to her to encourage her in a spiritual life and He he writes to her, you know about what what can spot it?

01:37:33

What a true Christian spirit consists of what the difference between a true Christian and a hypocrite?

01:37:40

And he writes about how you can encourage you can increase improve your spiritual life For example, he writes this that What are some of the tests of a spiritual life that you know the

01:37:55

Lord as father that you seek to know him better that You long after the ordinance of the word preached a sincere desire to do that, which it cannot do doing and suffering the will of God Resisting and fighting sin.

01:38:07

You will always speak well of God even affliction You humbly accept God's hand in affliction an inclination to enjoy more and more of Christ Restlessness when your relationship with the

01:38:16

Lord is broken by sin a love of what is seen of Christ and other children of God Hypocrite however the child of God cries out to him as father the hypocrite may long for more knowledge of God to make use of him or For the sake of being more knowledgeable or for the novelty of new knowledge of God But the child of God will want to know

01:38:35

God better for his own sake It is lovely lovely stuff there And it's it's so typically puritan

01:38:42

Yeah So this is why I feel that you know The man deserves be called good and I think the

01:38:48

Calvinism there the submission to God is so it is so typically Calvinistic But I think it's it's it's

01:38:56

All right, it's entirely pastoral. But you know, it seems to me he was a Calvinist certainly Well, we have to go to our last break.

01:39:02

It's gonna be much more brief than the previous one And so if you have a question send it in immediately to Chris Arnson at gmail .com

01:39:10

Before we run out of time Chris Arnson at gmail .com Don't go away. We'll be right back with Mostyn Roberts and the last segment of our interview on Roger Williams.

01:39:19

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Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant

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It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing

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We're a diverse family of all ages Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship play and together

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Hi I'm pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can

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Call in Brook Baptist at 5 1 6 5 9 9 9 4 0 2 that's 5 1 6 5 9 9 9 4 0 2 or visit

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Linbrook Baptist org, that's Linbrook Baptist org Hi, this is

01:49:21

John Sampson pastor of Kings Church in Peoria, Arizona Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the iron sharpens iron podcast

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I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

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Christian faith I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the

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Internet Where folk won't be led astray. I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide

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This is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time and knowing this

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It's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances

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I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting iron sharpens iron

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Financially, would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

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I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would all the details can be found at iron sharpens iron

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Radio .com where you can click support. That's iron sharpens iron radio .com

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Every day at thousands of community centers high schools middle schools juvenile institutions

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Coffee shops and local hangouts Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need

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Jesus We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus Our mission is to have a noticeable

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Spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959 we have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and Encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world help honor our history by becoming a part of our future

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Volunteer donate pray or all of the above for details call, Long Island Youth for Christ at 6 3 1 3 8 5 8 3 3 3 3 that's 6 3 1 3 8 5 8 3 3 3 or visit liy fc .org

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That's liy fc .org You Listening to Christian radio can be a big gamble

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Spiritually, even many of the major Christian networks that include excellent biblically faithful teachers on their lineup

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Sadly often also include the worst of doctrinally dangerous heretics If you are a lover of the doctrines of sovereign grace, you need not fear listening 24 hours a day to first love radio

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Org they feature Christ centered programming from Reformed pastors and teachers you can rely upon for theological soundness and Biblical faithfulness such as dr.

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Wr. Downing dr. Peter masters pastor Joe Jackowitz pastor Robert Gifford Al Martin Edward Delcourt and more

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First love radio org also live streams my iron sharpens iron radio program daily

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Please stick around on first love radio org after iron sharpens iron radio is over to continue being blessed by the unwavering proclamation of the gospel of sovereign grace

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Spread the word about first love radio org Chris Orrin's and host of iron sharpens iron radio here.

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I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years His name is Dan, but if you go

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Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer But not the type that typically comes to mind

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Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself Recently, he wrote a book titled consider the evidence for the

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Bible Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword Dan also has a master's degree in theology

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Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states

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He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer

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He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy and currently his firm has over 100 cases

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That have settled for 1 million dollars or more and in approximately 10 different states in Illinois his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history in New York his case involving a paralyzed police officer

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Made the front page of the law journal if you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state

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I recommend that you call Dan Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win

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Dan, but a few goes number is 1 800 6 6 9 4 8 7 8 1 800 6 6 9 4 8 7 8 or email me for Dan's contact information at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:54:50

That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com And I was so delighted to hear that a member of the iron sharpens iron radio audience

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Just had her medical malpractice case accepted by the law firm of Dan, but if you go, but if you go and associates

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Please contact them if you are in a similar circumstance or have a similar need

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Call them at 800 6 6 9 4 8 7 8 800 6 6 9 4 8 7 8

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Dan's advertising contract is up for renewal next month So the more people that contact him the more likely he's gonna renew that contract and we need

01:55:27

Dan To keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air and we thank Dan But if you go, but if you go and associates for doing that, we now are back with must and Roberts if you could most in in our final minutes

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Just leave our audience with what you most want etched in their hearts and minds in regard to this great figure from Christian history

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Roger Williams I'm going to be very brave. Let me just try to summarize what if it looks like the early

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American history I think in some ways you could see American culture can rest on on on three legs

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Plymouth Courage the pioneer spirit the early pilgrims going over and that westward moving spirit was such a part of the

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American psyche Boston community and The moral framework without a doubt the puritans of Boston, although Williams disagreed to them on important points

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They gave it true tremendous spiritual and moral framework for America and then thirdly

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Providence and this was conscience. I don't know and this is where Williams comes in the importance of tolerating differences

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So that along with religious exclusivism, you can have political pluralism and diversity which and I I think somehow those courage community and conscience those three legs of a stool as it were

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Plymouth Boston and Providence are all very much part of the American Outlook and Williams was

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Not the only but an important contributor towards what America became as not we see in the

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First Amendment of the Constitution which he didn't indeed he didn't directly influence obviously, but his views were

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Rick were seen in that But I think I think I would say that what is

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Williams show? He says profound respect for every human being we haven't really touched on his work with American Indians the times he spent with them

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The respect he had for them the negotiations He entered into between the settlers and the

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Indians to try to stop war on several occasions the profound respect for human beings

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To live with people with whom he fundamentally disagree. He taught us how to do that And I think he suits our times when as I put it the church is in the catacombs

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Not so much in America yet, but certainly in England you feel very much you are an unwelcome guest after centuries of being a host and I think

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Williams helps us to how to positively cope with being a pilgrim church again and The importance of discussion and debate he was he was an inveterate debater he was immensely useful in negotiating a man who seemed to be rather Untactful in his early in his youth when he was dealing with the authorities

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Became a greatly used negotiator time and time again And he was willing to discuss and debate with people to try to achieve peace

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And I think that's very important thing for Christians to learn instead of just hurling grenades at people We need to learn how to discuss and debate with people with whom we differ

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So I would I would say those are a number of things that I think are helpful from Williams Yes, and I think we could even have you back for part three of this discussion

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It's so fascinating and deep and you seem to have such a high appreciation of American freedom

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I think I could even invite a Brit like you to a 4th of July barbecue I Want to remind our listeners that you could get the subversive

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Puritan Roger Williams and freedom of conscience from one of our sponsors cv bbs .com

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cv bbs .com a publication of Evangelical press I want to thank you so much most in for being on the show.

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I look forward to your return Actually, he's returning this Friday folks the 5th of July to discuss Francis Schaefer So mark your calendars must and we'll be back to discuss

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Francis Schaefer. God willing this Friday I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives. Jesus Christ is a far greater