Debate: Matt Slick vs Sam Lattimore

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00:04

All right, so This is supposed to be the debate on Unconditional election and everything supposed to have been arranged and agreed on and Nobody's showing up so far now

00:20

I will say That there does seem to be or have been just a bit of confusion about a couple of things in the last hour

00:31

So I'll give the opponent the benefit of the doubt and Let's see what click this where'd it go?

00:38

There we go the benefit of the doubt and just say that yeah There's a mix -up. So what I since I said it was hot started six and that's what was agreed upon Then what

00:51

I'll I'm looking at some notes. I'm doing several things while I'm doing this then I'll just hang out here.

00:58

I thought I that's why I started it right now is so that people could pay attention I'm going to get the the links and stuff like that for rumble so that I can

01:09

Get in there And see any Texts that might be coming through as people work in there.

01:18

Okay, so Here we go. I'm supposed to be in that room there

01:28

I mean funny, but So anyway, that's what

01:35

I'm gonna do I see a I don't know whether having problems but we're gonna find this out So I'm going in I'm going in and Yeah, I'm just gonna do this so and I'm in this room apparently it's on Clubhouse and I I'm in there.

02:00

They can see me I'm not listening to them. I'm not gonna watch them.

02:05

And the reason is is because this this group of people is pretty vile pretty vitriolic pretty condemning and so We'll see what happens.

02:17

I'm in they can see me in this is the link It's supposed to be for him to come in right here. I don't see him in yet And we'll see now there's supposed to be a an atheist moderator, which is fine

02:27

If he doesn't show up the atheist moderator, that's fine I'm sure we're mature enough the opponent tonight to be able to have a conversation on our own without having to worry about stuff

02:37

But it should be interesting to see what's going to happen And I'm just hoping that things work out here pretty quickly

02:44

Pretty well, I'm stalling right now because I'm waiting for them to get in here Hey Matt, looking forward to our debate next week on the gospel truth.

02:52

Hopefully You prepared no, I haven't prepared yet J. I'm another debate coming up I think that's the one does the

02:59

Old Testament imply the the Trinity and So, you know, we'll just see that's what

03:06

I think that debate is supposed to be. So The topic tonight is supposed to I said

03:13

I should have fixed that I'm gonna do this but and do this now What if I can go in and edit?

03:19

the The stuff I don't know if I can or not Don't know.

03:25

I don't take a chance because if I edit the live stream to go with it the debate title up there

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I don't know. So that's that now Charlie's in He won't be participating won't be he won't be

03:37

I can see him in the backstage He won't be moderating or doing anything. So he's just in some people can do that His name is

03:46

Jacob You're healing it's me. Okay, Jay then hey, you know for the debate next week,

03:54

I think it's next week Why don't you if you would be so kind just email me what your position is.

04:01

So I know what it is that you're saying You're not just it's not in it. It's not in the Bible. You know, what do you are you a oneness?

04:09

Are you a Unitarian? What are you and so that I know that I don't have to waste time during a debate to figure out

04:15

Your position is I should know what your position is just a little degree. I mean by someone would say to me

04:21

What's your position? I'm a trinitarian Hypostatic Union reformed in my theology on millennial.

04:26

I say this about this level of luck. That's it So it'd be nice if you could send that to info at calm org.

04:33

I'll put that in here right now info at calm org and You're rap aliens, okay,

04:41

I don't know I'm gonna make sure well What we're gonna probably do at the end of this year is and starting in January Anybody wants to debate me?

04:52

We're gonna have to have arrangements ahead of time. There's gonna be a requirements for them

04:57

They're gonna have to provide the real name a photo Things like that what qualifies them?

05:04

Etc, you know and just basic stuff My debate a position then they have to tell me what their position is specifically so I know what what's going on Matt slicks the humblest been in the house.

05:15

They just insulted you Charlie says I'm more humble than you. So He's nodding which makes it more humble than me.

05:23

So There's that All right, so I'm in that cross -cut thing, but I'm not listening.

05:28

I'm not gonna be in there. I haven't turned down I don't have their volume. I'm not gonna listen to them. I don't care too.

05:34

I don't trust them and Just waiting for them to come in there in the room here. I'm waiting

05:41

I'm waiting Okay so The email has been sent.

05:48

I'm gonna type this in Dave Kimball sent the email with all the link info

06:00

I'm waiting. So there we go

06:07

All right without shopping today

06:13

With the wife I had a nice Thanksgiving yesterday And so I didn't get much time to prep for this

06:21

Should prep more but you know That's all right We'll see And let's see.

06:28

What's this get this over here get that right there and Yeah, you know lots of stuff here

06:39

But I'm gonna just say I'm waiting Check this out. Well, I don't know.

06:45

I don't know. We'll see. We'll see. Let's just say this I'll tell you the reason

06:51

I'm doing the debate. The only reason is is because I Said I would and I said this months and months ago and Then things happened and I had to go to Europe and other stuff and prep for you know

07:04

And it just didn't work out but I said I would that's my word. So that's why I'm following through saying yes and this if it doesn't happen now, it's not gonna happen because I'm not gonna waste my time and I've listened to these guys in their room on clubhouse

07:24

Just speak evil about Calvinists and Calvinism and I mean evil.

07:30

I mean evil wishing for our damnation Calling it of the devil

07:37

Just vitriolic and misrepresenting us so I don't have much faith in their objectivity

07:43

I don't have much faith in their ability to present let's just say

07:51

To present Stuff let's just say oh either. I guess I have to do this.

07:57

That's right. I forgot I have to Unmute in the room and so that's what the case is. Alright folks so, like I said

08:04

I'm still waiting for them to show up and we'll see if they do he does or does not and this is a really chance so that's

08:14

And we'll give it a while and if they don't show up I don't know ten minutes by the bottom of the hour

08:19

Then we'll just call it and then I'll just do a teaching on on this stuff and do a Q &A so we'll see what happens and So my wife is asleep.

08:29

She had a rough day today. We had to go shopping and I'm looking for a new chair for her that she can

08:35

Work in and do but do better and it just took a lot out of her for us to do that So she's asleep.

08:42

So if she gets up in the middle of something and I will hand this to Sam He said the opponent he has said that if something like that happens, that's fine

08:49

And that's like he's gracious that way and I appreciate that It's just a fact and my wife has a lot of stuff.

08:55

Here. He is. I hear adding him I See me

09:14

I see you do you hear me I can hear you. All right, I hear you too then

09:23

I Can see you clearly this is a very good system and it works really well

09:29

I'm gonna go down. I'm gonna keep talking to you. You keep talking. I'm gonna get some water Okay, and I can hear you while I'm walking

09:37

Okay. All right so Is the moderator gonna come in if not,

09:45

I'm sure you and I can handle it. Yeah I don't see him. Oh, I have instructed

09:52

I Have two people on stage to monitor the chat so that nobody does anything

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Disrespectful in the chat towards yourself for me And That's they won't be in the conversation and all they won't come out my pictures monitoring the chat

10:22

Yes, I hear you And Hold on Marianne Do me a favor come close my door

11:26

So generally speaking the affirmative position goes first in debates. I'm not don't if you're aware of that Since I affirm unconditional election

11:55

We are glad to Be here one more time again one more prayer time one more

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Prayer channel, let's pray father. We love you, and we pray to Magnify you for your greatness and for your holy name there is

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No, like you We ask father that you let the words of our mouth

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And the meditation of our heart Be acceptable in your sight.

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Oh God Give us listening ears And as you have promised

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Give your wisdom These things we ask according to the privilege and the authority given to us by life in your son

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Jesus Thank you God Amen So with that Now I'm having a little trouble hearing you and you guys yeah, you're a little muffled to me

13:06

Yeah, I hear you but just in case I say

13:11

I don't hear you or I miss something is because I do have hearing loss during AIDS in so Let me know if I get too loud

13:26

No, that's fine, that's fine, you know, I've been praying for you So and also thank you for praying for my wife

13:34

I do appreciate We when we heard it we stopped to pause to to make sure that we answered

13:45

Yeah, she's good. Your heartfelt desire for your wife to be healed

13:51

She's got some serious issues So you said you wanted a 20 -minute opening, is that correct?

14:10

How about up to 20 Mine won't be 20 minutes. Don't need it. So it's up.

14:16

Okay, sure So, how long do you think you're gonna need? Oh I'm probably gonna do about 15 or something somewhere around in there.

14:26

All right, so then what we'll do is Up to 20 opening right and then you want to do

14:34

What 10 minute cross or response you would do response? I don't do this is all new.

14:41

So yeah Yeah, we can we can Would do a seven minute response Generally how it works is the affirmative goes first I affirm

15:01

Unconditional election so for as long as I need it won't up to 20 minutes You won't need that long and then

15:07

I'm done and then you you have up to 20 minutes to give your your opening Then I can respond to your opening and you can then respond to my opening and then we can just depend we could do

15:21

Cross examination the questions and the conclusion sound good Yeah Okay, so Okay, so 20 minute opening it.

15:31

Sorry. We didn't have this all worked out folks up. How about up to 10 minute response?

15:36

Okay, that good. That's all right up to and then Let's do a half hour 20 20 40 50 60.

15:46

Let's do a half 30 minute Q &A. I will do fit. How about 15? 15 minutes

15:52

I ask questions 15 minutes us questions. You want to do that? That's fine. Okay, and then closing

16:01

Okay Okay. All right. Okay. I'm gonna offer you something else, too

16:06

Okay, after we're done if you want we can stay on and just have an open discussion on Calvinism Well, we're doing a very specific topic right now, which is what

16:32

We agreed to such let's do that your microphones in front of your face, so it's hard to see you No, it's good and I do apologize

16:45

I'm not playing a game I do have a hearing loss I can show you my ear hearing aids Okay This is why

16:52

I have this on it's easier I can turn it up So I will not be playing the game with you unless it's obvious.

16:58

I'm talking around. Yeah, I don't do that with people You know, I don't understand if I say look, I don't understand. I'm sorry.

17:03

Repeat it. All right. My wife is irritated with that So, how about if we do this

17:24

You know your guy I didn't come in Charlie down here we could ask him just to to type in If you if you see the screen you can you can type in how much time we have left

17:37

Like or if you want or I can just do my phone and say hey five minutes I go like this means five and then three, you know

17:44

Well, one of the guy big or dog got to keep time when you're

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Yeah, I'm gonna be using this track. I'm gonna be using my phone as well And if we mess up a little

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I don't care, you know, yeah Yeah, we'll be okay Okay, okay, are you able to keep time he said he can't oh he can't okay so well

18:19

These things come with cameras on them, so it's not a big deal. But yeah, just look at your clock in about 20 minutes

18:26

That's all okay I'm good. Let me know when you're gonna go and I'll just hit the time

18:32

Okay, sounds good Okay So I'm ready and sorry for the late start everybody.

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These are the details. You should have worked out already, but that's all right And I provided on calm

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Under calm org forward slash debates. I've provided the all the information need for Facebook.

18:54

I Think it was supposed to put on X Yeah Facebook YouTube and rumble so you can check it out.

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All right So I'm ready when you are

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I'm ready I'm gonna hit start.

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I'm gonna pray I always do when I preach and teach So, here we go Lord Jesus I just want to ask that you would bless this time and I ask

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Lord for Wisdom and mercy upon all of us that those who would hear or hear your voice and not ours

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But that you would be glorified Lord in this discussion in this time this disagreement even that by your grace that you would just Open the hearts and minds of people to understand the truth that you would receive the greatest of glory

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Lord Let me be instruments in your hand for your purpose. We ask this Jesus your precious name

19:54

Amen All right So So first of all

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Thank you all for coming and watching the debate. This is a topic that it's important As you know, maybe you know,

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I'm a five -point Calvinist and I don't hold to everything John Calvin said or Augustine or Burkhoff or whoever

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I've been defending Calvinism for a long time and I have a Masters of Divinity from Westminster Theological Seminary Where it's a

20:29

Calvinist seminary, so I've really you know, I had a lot of experience studying it on an official level and Defending it for about 33 years almost 34 years

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But thank you for for coming. I Suspected a lot of you had been to my website carm .org

20:48

C -a -r -m -o -r -g and just hope you would check it out. We got a lot of stuff we're working on and It is growing.

20:56

All right now Our debate is on whether or not God's election of people for salvation is conditional or Unconditional.

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So does God choose people for salvation based on something good and meritorious in them?

21:14

That'd be conditional salvation or election or not. Now if he does then

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That's what we call conditional salvation Conditional election Unconditional election is the teaching that God does not look into the future

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Does not consider what we will be and how good we will be and then make a decision to choose us for salvation on that So this debate is not about total depravity.

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It's not about libertarian or compatibilist freewill. It's not about irresistible grace It's not about perseverance.

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It's not about Deliberate atonement. It's about whether or not God elects people for salvation

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Based on something only within himself or something external to himself

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Namely the good and wise choices of people Now if pastor

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Sam is debating me Then he needs to do of my position not

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John Calvin not Augustine not Burkhoff Not anybody else not some Gnostic theory not so many thing but what

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I teach I believe because otherwise he's debating somebody else and not me so if he Quotes someone else's proof of what all caught

22:21

Calvinist believe then he's not debating me He's debating them and they aren't here to defend themselves and give account for any accusations or quotes or context or anything

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And said the debate is about what the scriptures teach now I believe that they teach that God elects people for salvation and he does so Unconditionally not based on any foreseen goodness in them

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His election is before the foundation of the world as Ephesians 1 for Clearly states and it does not occur after someone believes as some people hold of that position

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And I'm not sure what pastor Sam's position really is have to find out so God's choice of who to elect for salvation does not depend on any foreseen good in us

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It depends on the good in God God's election does not depend on man's goodness. It depends on God's goodness.

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This is important now generally Conditional election advocates claim that God elects people for salvation based on foreseen faith

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I don't know if that's pastor Sam's position, but I don't know what it is. I've asked for a definition I don't know if that Definition came through but because Dave was doing the emails and stuff while I was doing a bunch of other stuff

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So I assume that that is Sam's position and if it's not then I'm perfectly open to being corrected and I'll adjust my arguments after that, so Like I said,

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I haven't heard his position exactly. I assume it is foreseen faith that God's for knowledge

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Foreseen see what people will do and chooses them for salvation based on that.

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That's my assumption And if it's incorrect, no disrespect meant I'm not trying to misrepresent him

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That's just what I'm assuming because I haven't heard his position even though I did ask for it And that's a he didn't want willing to give it.

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I'm just saying it was an email confusion. That's all I'm saying. So The question should we have to deal with or whether or not

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God looks into the future to see what people will do if that's the case and it means

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God learns and If God is learning then that means that God's choices depend on man's choices.

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This is humanism It's humanist philosophy may just sound like biblical truth. I hope that's not what he's teaching.

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I don't know yet So philosophy is something the critics of reform theology often raise against the doctrines of grace.

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They often tell us to not use philosophy yet They do that very thing when they impose their humanist philosophy upon the scriptures and presuppose

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That God looks into the future to see who will do what and that God elects based on the good and wise choices of people

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Again, that's humanism and I've taught on humanism. That is humanism

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So, let me expand It's a philosophical view that uses mankind as a standard

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That's what humanism is and I have a phrase Christian humanism, which I've been talking about I was creeping into the

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Christian Church a lot But in this case, it's a humanist philosophy to say that God looks into the future to see what's which sinners will do the correct

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Good and wise thing and then God reacts and he picks them and he saves them so after all

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Isn't believing in God a good thing? Isn't choosing to believe in God a good thing? Isn't it wise to pick

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Jesus? Isn't it wise why I would say it is So isn't it also a humble thing to say that you're a sinner in the need of a

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Savior? Well being humble about yourself and recognizing your need for Jesus. That's a good and wise thing.

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It is I'm not mocking it. It's good But the problem here is that it means that God's choices depends on man's goodness

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If man if it means that God reacts to the good and wise choices of mankind so that you can then save them

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That's against Scripture. Now check this out James 2 2 through 4 For if a man comes into your assembly with a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes and there comes also a poor man in dirty clothes and you pay special attention to the one who's wearing the fine clothes and say you sit here

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In a good place and you say to the poor man you stand over there or sit by my footstool Have you not made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil motives?

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Now this isn't addressing exactly the issue of conditional election. Okay What it's addressing is the idea of showing favoritism based on a quality characteristic possession of somebody else

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God says don't do that. God doesn't look at what you have to Decide to save you this says you are not to show any favoritism to anybody based on anything.

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That's good about them Don't show favoritism So God does not look into the future

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To see what events will occur if that's the case and that means he's learning Now we can get into temporal priority logical priority and some conditions here.

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We can talk logic about this stuff I don't know if he's willing to do that But I hope he's not teaching that God knows what they're going to do and looks into the future to see what's going to happen

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Or is it that all of knowledge is concomitantly instantaneous and ubiquitous which out without any increase of knowledge?

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We could discuss that and why that would necessarily be the case because it would have to be by God's work and not by man's choices and But nevertheless

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God's choices are not dependent upon man's choices man is not the center of salvation via the wise and good exercise of his own will by which

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He wisely and humbly and properly and with goodness chooses to believe in Christ this humanist philosophy needs to be rejected and People need to submit to the sovereignty and goodness of God and not elevate their own sovereignty in their own goodness

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I see this in the cults. I'm not calling him a cultist, but I see it in the cults Okay, I see it in in Roman Catholicism.

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I see it in Eastern Orthodoxy. I see it a lot in our and Armenian churches where a lot of people say that they were wise enough to pick

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God and That they maintain their position by their goodness their their continued faithfulness to God and then you know

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Hey yourself in the back for that good for you so The Bible says that God is the author and finisher of our faith

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He's the one who grants that we have faith flippings 129. He grants that we come to Christ John 6 65

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He grants that we have repentance 2nd Timothy 2 25 He is the one who causes us to be born again

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That's 1st Peter 1 3 and we're born again Not of our own will John 1 13 and as many as had been appointed by God to eternal life believed.

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That's Acts 13 48 Now when we go to Ephesians 1 4 Says this just as he chose us in him

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That's in Christ federal headship before the foundation of the world that we would be holy and blameless before him in love

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He predestined us to adoption as some through Jesus Christ to himself according to the kind intention of his will

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Notice man's will isn't here man's choices are not here. Don't insert to the hope.

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Nobody here does Well, God just knows what you're gonna do That's why I think that's humanist philosophy read into the text if you say that nothing in here talks about human choices

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It's God choosing us in Christ According to the kind intention of his will that's what he says

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Second Thessalonians 2 13 says but we should always give thanks to God for you brethren

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Beloved by the Lord because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation

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Through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. This is God's work He chose it again a second

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Thessalonians 2 13 Nothing there is said about God considering our future freewill choices and abilities and goodness and whatever

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No, it's God's choice. You may not like it, but that's what these scriptures are teaching

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From these two verses we can see that the active agent of election and choosing is God Nothing is mentioned in either verse about God looking into the future

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To see who will choose him through his foreknowledge, which he can define and we can discuss Well, that might be defined or different ways of defining it depending on people what their view is we can get into that But he doesn't do that.

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He doesn't look to see what will happen or just know what will happen in the future instantly and Eternally and then decides based on that knowledge

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That would mean then that he's choosing them for salvation based on good quality in them

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On a good quality in them, that's humanism you see humanism would teach that mankind

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It's capable mankind's a good standard mankind Humanist philosophy.

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I chose God. I was wise enough. I was humble enough to pick him, but my neighbor did not

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So I'm the one responsible for my salvation That's humanist philosophy

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So if God's election of people is based on a condition or quality or decision or action in them

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Then there needs to be some scriptures that show that there needs to be something in scripture that says

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God looks and considers your choices. And that's why he picks you Something to that effect doesn't have those exact words, but if that's his position or that's the counter position

31:44

Logically as much must be what it is because the position that I'm holding to is that God does not look into the future does

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Not consider free will choices of people in different conditions Molinistic theologies what that is in order to then make choices based on these these conditions

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Likewise if God's election of people is not based on any good condition or quality In them and then there needs to be scripture that supports the idea and I've already done that I've already shown to I didn't go into a lot and the idea is not to machine -gun 80 versus just that's not right

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Machine -gun 100 versus the opponent can't respond to all of them. It's just not fair and I want to be fair on this

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Okay, so here's two main ones we can look at You know Ephesians 1 4 and 5 and then 2nd

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Thessalonians 2 13 Now my opponent needs to establish his position from scripture

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You will need to support the idea that God chooses people based on a foreseen quality of goodness in them

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We have to ask is it true that God's choice to save people depends on man's good and wise choices

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Is it true that God looks into the future to learn what good and wise choices people will make? So that God then chooses to save them

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Is that what? The other position is if so, that's humanism and it is it's not name -calling.

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That's what it is I've spoken about this in my radio show. I've written about it working on stuff about it

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Behind -the -scenes of other articles about Christian humanism So God is not based as eternal election upon the wisdom and goodness of people who would then in their own ability

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And in their own humility and the goodness of their own hearts accept Christ by faith thereby enabling

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God to elect them for salvation Nor does he elect them after they believe because Ephesians 1 4 says before the foundation of the world they were elected

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Their humanist philosophy must be rejected because it's man -centered and it always leads to further error

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And it also leads to hatred towards other positions hatred

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Not just disagreement but hatred and condemnation when people elevate humanist philosophies

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What they often do is become judges of other people's hearts and minds and they condemn them

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This is a result of humanist thought and humanism in their own hearts and minds.

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It's essentially a reflection of the ancient echo Sounding down through the history

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Into the hearts of men you will be like God knowing good and evil God alone is non -contingent

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His existence knowledge and wisdom are not dependent upon anything outside of himself, but in the humanist

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Philosophy of conditional election God's choices are contingent upon human choices.

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That's the other position. That's I understand it I'm certainly not trying to misrepresent it But that's what

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I understand it to be in my 44 years of discussing various topics They are contingent on the good humble and wise decisions that some people make and others do not

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That's humanist philosophy again That means that God reacts and saves them because he sees how good they're going to be

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And how wise you're going to be when they exercise their faith and choose Jesus and so God saves them

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God elects them This humanist philosophy is not biblical I've been well aware of it for a long time and refuting it and speaking against humanist philosophy in Christian circles for a long time

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It's prevalent unfortunately in the church today Because they're not bowing to God's sovereignty who works all things after the council of his will

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Ephesians 111 Instead they're exalting their own wisdom humility and goodness as a deciding factor in God's choice to save us.

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I reject Such humanist philosophy and I stick with the scriptures that says that God is a sovereign

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King and he chose us Before the foundation of the world according to the kind intention of his will

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He didn't see how good we're going to be in order to choose us He didn't react to our goodness and then say well done

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I'll save you because of how good you are you chose wisely know That I reject

36:02

God the sovereign King I'm done Hey, I'm pastor

36:11

Sam. Welcome to you got cut the cross mom, man. I'm so glad to be here

36:18

To be a part of this I think you have extra four minutes, but you're receiving that time to Pastor Sam.

36:29

Yeah. Can you hear me? Can y 'all hear me? Yes, we hear you you're good, okay

36:39

My mic wasn't on Okay Thank you. Hey, I'm pastor

36:44

Sam. Welcome to you got cut the cross mom. They do my intro here again. I'm so glad to To be here and to be a part of this

36:52

Black Friday event. Let me tell you something Don't give people your mind. I promise you if you give people your mind, they will ruin it for you

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Especially when it comes to the Bible Nobody has given that permission to tell us what

37:11

God did in time other than what the Bible says now

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He made one mistake Yeah, he made a mistake Calvin you didn't write

37:28

Calvinism Messick didn't write Calvinism y 'all. He's not the anchor

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Right. He's not the anchor of Calvinism he don't get to tell me Yeah.

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Yeah, you don't get to tell me what to say Who who dimension That this is

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Calvinism is an ancient heresy and it has to be approached from that standpoint

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Oh, I might do I have an echo what what's going on? In my

38:06

Okay, you sound good to me you sound good No, I'm muted

38:14

I'm muted and I'm just repeating what you say in my speech program so I can copy your your your clubhouse

38:23

Microphone. Oh, that's right. I apologize. You know, I forgot about that my apologies.

38:29

I did forget about that. That's right That's okay. Okay, so Um, so I'm not going to be following Matt slicks slick little thing that he did.

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I'm gonna talk about Calvinism all day How I want to and who I want to involve in it.

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Okay So let me begin by acknowledging, you know John Augustine may have had a

38:56

Sincere desire to honor God, but he just dishonored God Tonight I would demonstrate how

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Calvinist unconditional election fundamentally Misrepresents the character of God as revealed in the scripture.

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I'm here before you Let him Accuracy look

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I want him to be on the full screen letter to the Galatians use a specific Greek word. Oh When warning about Who would pervert the gospel?

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This word literally means to turn about to transform Something completely different it combines the word meta meaning change to Styrofoam mean to turn

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Indicating a complete reversal and fundamental transformation of something from its original form in Galatians Paul meticulously lays out the foundation of salvation

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He traces it back to Abraham establishing that God's method of justification through faith

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Was preached even before the law this faith principle Works This faith principle not only works not law not on works not on the law not on election is how

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Abraham was justified Paul explicitly states this same faith principle and continues through to Christ to the

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Gentiles When we examine Calvinism Soteriology or of salvation we find it begins not with this

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Abrahamic faith principle But with unconditional election as its foundation

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This represents precisely what the Greek word that that is represented perverted in Galatians warns about a complete transformation of the

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Gospels foundation from what Paul explicitly establishes

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This isn't about tradition or preference No, this is not about traditional preference

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The clock this is not about traditional preference.

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This is about precise biblical language and clear apostatic teaching

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Paul's letter to the Galatians Presents an unbroken line from Abraham to Christ centered on the principle of justification by faith

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Any system that alters this foundation regardless of its historical significance or theological sophistication

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Fits the very definition of perversion what Paul warned against in using the words

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To change The soteriology and the order of salutes the evidence speaks for itself

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When we compare the foundational order of salvation of Galatians with that of Calvinism we find not a continuation of Paul's teachings but a fundamental transformation of it

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Our foundation must be the understanding that there is one faith one true faith not two

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No multiple interpretations not competing systems, but one faith

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One faith that was delivered to the Saints one thing a

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Complete transformation of the gospel foundation from what Paul Explicitly establishes is a violation.

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It is it's a disqualification our foundation

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Must be the foundation that there is again one faith Why is this significant?

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Because tonight We're not merely discussing different interpretations

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We're examining whether Calvinist doctrine aligns with or departs from that one faith

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That's what this is about This is not about Matt Slitt. He didn't write

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Calvinism Calvinism existed before any of the Calvinists on this planet that you know

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So I have to refer to Calvinism not his brand of Calvinism because he didn't write he doesn't get to change it he's not the author but Calvinists have a really good history of Changing books because we know that because how they do with the

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Bible I don't know who told him that they could change the Word of God. I don't know Central to understanding

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God's relationship with humanity is Recognizing his fundamental nature as the father of spirits

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This isn't my Characterization. It's God's own revelation of himself in number 1622

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Moses and Aaron fall on their faces and appeal to him as The God of the spirits of all flesh in Hebrews chapter 12 verse 9.

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We are especially told he is the father of spirits Think about that The weight of that title father of spirits not just creator

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Not just sovereign but father. Let me ask you What kind of father creates children specifically for destruction?

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What kind of father having the power to save his children? chooses not to do so Not based on anything that they've done according to what

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Matt is saying and according to the Calvinist doctrine I think that they've done no good neither either evil but simply because he decided not to The Calvinist doctrine of total depravity claims that fallen man

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Has wholly lost all ability of the will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation

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Yet scripture tells a different story in Genesis chapter 4 verse 26

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We read at the time at that time people began to call upon the name of the Lord This is after the fall before any doctrine of regeneration

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Let me say that again. This was after the fall Genesis 4 and 26 and before any doctrine of regeneration

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These were unregenerate people seeking God hmm But perhaps even more telling is

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God's Determined purpose for humanity. See that's the thing that Matt left out about me

46:10

I'm taking God's Word for what he said They'll tell you what God determined because of their philosophy and their humanism

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But I want to tell you here's what the Word of God says about what God determines You can get your book out

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Or I'm making this up, but perhaps even more telling is

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God's determined purpose for humanity in Acts 17 26 and 27

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Paul declares and he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on the face of the earth

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Wait a minute having determined Allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place

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That they should seek God and perhaps feel towards him and find him hmm

47:00

Did that catch you God determined the times and the boundaries of nations? for what purpose

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That they should seek God. That's what the text says Not that they couldn't seek him not that they would be unable to respond to him but that they should seek him with the genuine possibility of finding him and this divine determination

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Continues in some in this same speech Paul declared in Acts 17 and 30 the times of ignorance

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God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent

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You notice this notice this right here This command to repent is just as much a part of God's determination as he sets of times and he sets of boundaries a universal command from God who means what he says

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For some reason Calvin's like to make it seem like God doesn't mean what he says when he comes to check statements like that just clear statements now

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Let's examine the Westminster Confession what it states about election by the decree of God for the manifestation of his glory

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Some men and angels are predestined unto everlasting life and others who are ordained to everlasting death without any foresight of faith or good works or perseverance in either of them or in any other thing in the creature as conditions or causes moving him thereto

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That's Calvinist election Calvinists often point to Romans chapter 9 to support this view particularly regarding God's choice of Jacob over Esau But let's think about what their interpretation implies

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They claim God creates certain spirits Remember he is the father of spirits specifically for eternal damnation

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Without any consideration of their choices or actions. That's Calvinism He didn't write it.

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It was here before he got here. So I'll tell you I'll tell you again Do not give these people your mind because if you do

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You're gonna follow them down a path that the Bible has not laid out in this character of God God in this scripture

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God's character God revealed it in in this the character

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Is this the character of God revealed in scripture that he would treat people the way that Westminster professor said a

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God who declares I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked But that the wicked turn from his way and live

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Ezekiel 33 and 11 a God who is not wishing that any should perish but that all

49:57

Should come to repentance 2nd Peter 2 verse 3 and 9 This desire is impassive in Ezekiel 18 and 31 and 32

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God pleads cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit

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Why will you die? Oh house of Israel. Well, I have no pleasure in the death of anyone declares the

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Lord God So turn and live What kind of sovereignty?

50:28

Commands people to do what he has predetermined that they cannot do

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Are we crazy? We're not crazy What kind of father pleads with his children to turn and live without already deciding that they cannot?

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That's crazy the calendar system presents us with a God who Barack he creates beings unable to respond to him

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He predestines most of the world to destruction. He chooses not to say those he could say

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He acts contrary to his own revealed desire. I just read it to you

51:13

He does not desire that the wicked die, but Calvinism promotes that he does

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Because of their unconditional Election clause that ain't my fault. Did I do that?

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No, I didn't do it Calvin and the rest of those fellas that put that thing together This isn't just a different interpretation it's a different God entirely a

51:34

God who creates spirits for destruction who could say but chooses not to Who determines damnation without cause bears more resemblance to the evil?

51:44

narcissistic Devil Satan the father of spirits did not do it tonight.

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I contend that the biblical narrative reveals a father of spirits who genuinely desires all seek him a

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God whose psalm tree serves his love serves his love not neglected a

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Creator who gives humanity Genuine ability to respond to him a father whose actions align perfectly with his revealed character

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The choice before us isn't between God's sovereignty and human free will it's between accepting

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God's revealed character as the loving father of spirits and a systematic theology that fundamentally misrepresent misrepresent

52:36

Before concluding Let's examine God's explicit promise of redemption and his revealed character from the very beginning in humanity's darkest moments

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God promised redemption Genesis 3 and 15 he declared to the serpent I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring

52:59

He shall bruise your head and you shall bruise his heel. The first promise of redemption was a limited to a select few

53:07

It was promised concerning all of humanity through the woman's offspring This universal promise finds its fullest expression in John 3 and 16 for God so loved the world

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That he gave his only begotten Son that the believing one

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Should not perish but have eternal life Notice the scoop whoever believes not whoever was pre -selected to believe

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Whatever was given the ability whoever was given the ability to believe but simply whoever

53:49

Believes that's the word of God Consider how God's work to spring people to himself

53:56

Consider God's work to bring people to himself Romans 2 and 4 tell us

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It is his kindness that leads to repentance That's Romans 2 and 4 tells us it is his kindness that leads us to repentance

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Or do you presume that the riches of kindness in the forebearance of patience knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to?

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Repentance, that's what it says That's not humanism. That's God in ism ism

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That's what that is. This is what God's Word says Why such patience once God had this kind of patient second

54:37

Peter 3 and 9 answers clearly the Lord is Not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness

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But it's patient towards you not wishing that any should perish but that all should reach repentance

54:52

Oh For some reason all is not all in Calvinism if it's not if in Calvinism You can't read in English.

55:02

You can't do you can't use the nine parts of speech you had to use some Calvinese These aren't empty words

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Paul tells us in 1st Timothy 2 3 and 4 that God desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth

55:18

Titus 2 in 11 declares that the grace of God has appeared to all bringing salvation for all people and To those who seek him

55:28

God promised in Jeremiah 29 and 13 You will seek me and find me you will seek me with all your heart

55:34

Jesus himself assures us in Matthew 7 7 through 8 asking it would be given to you seek and you will find not then it will be open to you for everyone

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Who asks receive? Not everyone Jesus that limited group everyone who asks receives and the one who seeks finds and the one who nots

55:53

It will be open that's either the truth or it's a lie. He didn't say nothing about any it

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So I ask you How can we reconcile these clear?

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Universal promises with a system that teaches that God determined most people for destruction

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You can't are we to believe that when God says his kindness leads to repentance He actually means his kindness only leads to a priest selected to repentance when he says whoever believes

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Does he mean whoever I previously enabled to believe? When God declares his desire that all be saved is he being disingenuous?

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Is he faking? Is he playing? Should we add the footnote, but only the elect will ask

56:45

The Father of Spirits has revealed himself through consistent universal promises of redemption

56:51

His goodness leads to repentance his grace brings salvation for all people his patience extends because he desires none to perish

57:00

These aren't mere theological points. They reveal the very character of God.

57:06

The choice is clear we Will we accept God's revealed character and promises or will we embrace a system that requires us to redefine every universal promise restrict every expression of divine love and ultimately transform the

57:22

Father of Spirits into something unrecognizable to even himself Shall we do that?

57:30

let us contend for that one faith and faith that takes God at his word and Trusts his revealed character as the loving

57:38

Father of Spirits who truly desires all to come to repentance and find salvation in him

57:43

Let us contend for that one faith not a system that turns the Father of Spirits into an arbitrary

57:49

Dictator who creates souls for destruction now. I Anticipate my appointee will employ a familiar strategy

57:56

The more than likely bombard you with a collection of isolated verses Stripped from their context in attempt to obscure the clear biblical truth

58:06

I presented He might quote Romans 9 or Ephesians 1 pulling individual verses like threads while ignoring the complete tapestry of Paul's Work that is woven in Ephesians and in Galatians He may even attempt to shift your attention away from the biblical facts by attacking the person

58:26

Or maybe the cross mobs motives but notice

58:34

What will be missing from his response and from the things that he says what is missing? He won't be able to explain the way the

58:41

Greek word Underneath that word pervert in Galatians. He won't be able to change

58:47

Paul's clear tracing of salvation's foundation to Abraham's faith

58:53

He won't be able to alter the facts that Calvinism's foundation fundamentally differs from Paul's explicit teaching

59:02

When you hear his response, I want you to remember one thing. I Didn't give you my opinion today.

59:09

I quoted Calvin I Didn't quote Calvin. I didn't quote

59:14

Luther or any of the church fathers I showed you Paul's own words in his own language with his own clear warnings about transforming the gospel from its original form

59:24

The truth doesn't require elaborate philosophical frameworks or complex theological systems

59:31

It simply requires us to hear what Paul actually wrote Understand what he actually meant and accept what he actually taught everything else no matter how scholarly it sounds is exactly what

59:44

Paul warned us about a Transformation of the gospel into something fundamentally different from its original form the question isn't whether my opponent can quote scripture or Of course he can the question the question is whether he can explain why his system starts somewhere different than where Paul started that's what that Perversion thing is all about.

01:00:09

It's about why was it taken in and what's at stake in this debate?

01:00:15

So I speak Now to three groups among us today to the scholarly theologians

01:00:23

I extend this simple challenge Examine that word under there that for perversion in Galatians.

01:00:31

It's called metastrophe or something to that Examine it for yourselves and when you discover his true meaning and implications perhaps it's time to visit your seminary financial office in No refund might be in order for what you taught what they taught you about soteriology

01:00:50

To those who generally desire to be identified as Christians I speak with brotherly concern

01:00:56

The sport of Calvinism you're wielding isn't the weapon that you think it is lay it down Submit instead to the pure gospel that God himself spoke to Abraham the same gospel

01:01:09

Paul defended So fiercely your loyalty should be to the truth not to the systematic that transforms it and finally

01:01:17

To those who are hearing these facts Still choose to resist the original gospel that preach this preach to Abraham you hear what

01:01:28

I'm saying and you resist it You can only respond. I Can only respond as Paul did

01:01:37

I take no pleasure in this? but the

01:01:44

Apostles were staying Let them be anathema Remember not the

01:01:49

I rest my case not an elegant argument or theological

01:01:54

Gymnastics, but on the simple unchangeable truth that Paul gave his life to protect the evidence

01:02:01

Speaks for itself. I'm pastor Sam welcome All right

01:02:13

Thank you for that Is your mic on in the club? There it is, okay.

01:02:24

Sorry about that. Okay. Thank you for that So We're gonna do a 10 -minute response as we agreed so I will

01:02:33

I'll do that. Hopefully it'll go well Get my notes here Why I have four four monitors and I lost my notes

01:02:44

There we go All right My clock, all right, here we go starting my 10.

01:02:56

All right, so Sam did not address the issue at hand.

01:03:02

He didn't address what the criteria was by which God then Chooses people as a conditional or unconditional He attacked the issue of total depravity.

01:03:10

He failed to understand original sin I think you can have a discussion on that what that really is out of Romans 518

01:03:16

Romans 519 We can talk about that and what's called federal headship representation

01:03:22

Etc. But it's really important that that he stick up to the topic. The topic is very narrow.

01:03:28

The topic is Is unconditional election biblical? Unconditional election is the teaching from Reformed Theology that God does not base his

01:03:38

Criteria of salvation based on any good quality in the individual. That's what it is. If you talk about total depravity

01:03:44

Well, we could talk about that. It's another that are a doctrine. I mean, I know it quite well

01:03:49

I can quote it. Trust me. I can quote a lot about it, but that's not what the topic is so The topic is on what basis did

01:03:57

God used to choose people? Did I hear him say I maybe I missed it that I hear him say he chooses

01:04:03

He the criteria he uses to choose people is based on their foreseen faith based on their goodness in their hearts

01:04:08

That's what the answer would be Giving a dissertation about some other Topic isn't the issue or Abrahamic covenant covenant of faith that Paul Quotes in Galatians 3 8 when he refers to Genesis 12 3 and you all the nation shall be blessed and he goes in and discusses

01:04:24

Various issues of soteriology justification by faith and goes to Galatians 5 I'm sorry, you know

01:04:32

Look, the issue isn't what are we justified by faith or works? The issue is on what basis did

01:04:37

God choose people for salvation? That's what the topic is It's a very narrow topic and he's not sticking to the topic So he goes on and says

01:04:44

God wants all to be saved. Well, okay, we could discuss 2nd Peter 3 9 We could discuss 1st Peter 2 4 we can go into these verses

01:04:51

We can discuss what the nature and the issue of the word all means and how God uses it in different contexts

01:04:56

I know it quite well, but that's not what the topic is about He has to deal with the issue of unconditional election

01:05:02

Is the the choosing is God's choosing us for salvation based on something good in us or not in us?

01:05:10

Is it based on God's choice only in his choice or not only in his choice?

01:05:16

That's what the debate is about So when he gets back on the mic He needs to answer the question and stick with the topic because he's not doing that I know this for sick men, but this is a serious thing again, the topic is is

01:05:28

Unconditional election biblical unconditional election is the I've mentioned it in my opening statement.

01:05:33

It is the teaching that God does not Choose people for salvation based on any good quality in them that's it, but he chooses people based on the kind intention of his will

01:05:44

Ephesians 1 11 and People being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world

01:05:50

Ephesians 1 1 -4 Nothing in these scriptures that I quoted nothing in the scriptures that he quoted

01:05:55

Implied the idea that God chooses us because how good we are Now this is the thing.

01:06:01

This is humanist philosophy. I'm sorry, but it's what it is. It's humanist philosophy to say that God looks into the future knows the future either looks and to learn which he didn't address or He looks in Concomitantly eternally knows actuals called counterfactuals as well as actualities and things like this

01:06:19

We can get into all this stuff and then he knows what people will do and makes his decisions based on that either way

01:06:24

It means that God's choices depends on the goodness of men Now this is the issue

01:06:29

If that's what Sam's saying that God knows what good choices people will make and so God then chooses them based on how good they are

01:06:38

I went to James 2 2 through 4 and tried to show that we are not to show any favoritism based on any individual based on any quality possess and God says in Ephesians, excuse me

01:06:49

Romans 2 11. He says there's no partiality with God He does what he wants He doesn't look into the future to see what good thing people have how much money they have how good -looking they are

01:07:01

What power they have or through whom met the humility? They might have or the wisdom they might have or the goodness of their own heart to be able to pick and choose him

01:07:10

If you're gonna say that God looks in the future for this and you're saying that God shows partiality Based on a good thing in them, but you have problems with that because God is the one who makes the heart

01:07:20

He's the one who weaves us together and even the scriptures for that. He's the one who does this God is the one who determines these things and so you have to look what is

01:07:29

God doing and you have to relate this to I'm sorry, but you have to the issue of original sin if you're gonna get into that kind of discussion

01:07:35

It's a theological issue. It is something we need to look at Unconditional election deals with the criteria by which

01:07:42

God then chooses people for salvation It's either based on what God does or it's based on what man does that is it?

01:07:50

So we have to understand something here On what is God making his choices

01:07:56

I Don't still don't know what Sam's position is. He hasn't answered that question. He could have just said

01:08:03

Unconditional the conditional election the basis that God elects people for salvation is this that's what he should do

01:08:09

Make the statement and then defend the statement, but he didn't defend the statement because he didn't make the statement

01:08:15

But he went to Galatians and Galatians 3 1 through 3 Galatians 5 1 through 5 these areas

01:08:20

Which do you foolish Galatians, you know I think that that was it began by the Spirit could be perfected in the flesh goes at Galatians after 5

01:08:27

You know talks about those who are seeking to be circumcised to fulfill the law and then justifications by that He's equating that with Calvinism.

01:08:34

What? Calvinist don't teach what he said and that's not a place to go to try and bolster your position either

01:08:41

I know those positions very well because I use them against Roman Catholics Mormons Jehovah's Witnesses, etc

01:08:46

Because I know what that stuff is and it's not is that to do with unconditional election We don't say that God chooses us because of any good thing in us like I'm assuming he does

01:08:57

So I don't believe that he understands reformed theology regarding election and faith We teach that God elects and that we are justified by faith and that he grants that we have that faith

01:09:06

Lipton's 129 He does not grant us the opportunity to believe as some mistakenly add to the

01:09:12

Word of God by twisting it No, it doesn't give us an opportunity He grants it aorist passive indicative.

01:09:19

I can get into that so They start calling upon the name of the Lord in Galatians 426.

01:09:26

Yes What about it? The people who started calling it doesn't say that they had their free will ability to and that has nothing to do with election.

01:09:34

Anyway It doesn't deal with the issue of election He says God damns people not based on any of their actions or decisions

01:09:43

You don't understand reformed theology. I'm gonna just tell you this Sam And I mean this sincerely you need we are we willing to help you and I'm not trying to talk down to you

01:09:52

I'm not you're an ordained minister I believe you're a man of God and I need to show you the proper respect that an elder in the church has but I will say that I do not believe that you understand original sin or Federal headship and I'd be willing to have a discussion with you.

01:10:09

I'm not saying I'm better than you I'm not saying I'm more knowledgeable you about all this stuff I am saying that these topics are very important and they relate to this issue

01:10:17

Because if you're gonna say that God damns people not based on any of their action or decisions Then the corollary is that he saves people based on their their actions and their decisions.

01:10:27

That's the corollary He's the opposite action the opposite system

01:10:34

That's not what the scriptures teach God does not base his election on us But on him

01:10:40

I Believe you've sincerely failed to misrepresent or fail to understand original sin, which is important at this point but we're talking about unconditional election and I might as well do this

01:10:52

Ezekiel 33 11. He says he takes no pleasure to death of the wicked Well, he's do some homework for Samuel 225

01:10:58

God says that the Lord desired to put this guy to death and that's the same word

01:11:05

No pleasure and yet desired. It's the same word in Hebrew Shafetz. He desired to do it Likewise Shafetz is in Isaiah 53 10 where it says but the

01:11:13

Lord was pleased to crush him There's a lot more going on here.

01:11:19

I've written a lot on this on my other website Calvinist corner calm I've read a lot about this issue what

01:11:25

God desires and what he wants what he arranges I could talk about this quite a bit 2nd Peter 3 9

01:11:30

Ezekiel 18 31 through 32. I only have a minute and a half left And he said according to Calvinism God refuses to save those who he could say what

01:11:41

He can save whoever he wants doesn't God know exactly what to do to bring anybody to faith He grants repentance 2nd

01:11:48

Timothy 2 25. He grants repentant. I mean grants that we believe Philippians 1 29 He grants we come to Christ second.

01:11:55

I mean a John 6 65 He's the one who does this as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed acts 1348 so If God knows what it's necessary to I'm gonna ask him this in a cross -exam.

01:12:08

So think about this Well, we're about out of time I don't have to save the question for later and get to something else you quoted

01:12:13

John 3 16 and to my I'm impressed He actually said instead of whoever he said the one believing that's actually what it says pass off as to own the believing one

01:12:22

That's good. Then he goes back to whoever that's not what it says. That's hosts in the Greek It's not what it says this had nothing to do with conditional election

01:12:30

So let me conclude by this last 20 seconds here of my time On what basis does

01:12:35

God elect? Is it based on a foreseen goodness in us if so show that to us in Scripture?

01:12:42

If you can't show it to us in Scripture, then you concede the topic You can see you can't demonstrate your position and the unconditional election side wins.

01:12:50

It's called a Disjunctive syllogism you have two sides two options and only two options and only one can be true

01:12:58

Not both if you disprove one and the others validated So if you cannot show from your scripture from your understanding that God bases an election on our goodness our wisdom our humility

01:13:09

And our choices, whatever it is Foreseen faith you can't show that then your positions falsified and the other positions verified simple logic.

01:13:18

I'm done Look man, you can stop building them from is for me to To You know what you what you try to make it like I'm doing you can just kill that man.

01:13:33

So Here's the thing according to According to According to RC spro,

01:13:56

I'm gonna read you a little something. I know you don't You know, you don't take

01:14:02

Calvinism from nobody of you you the foundation of Calvinism. So that's okay. I Challenge this is a

01:14:11

RC spro says What criteria does God use to the Christian into one?

01:14:19

Brief statement is here. You might were you saying something? Because I mean I tried to be quiet when you was talking.

01:14:26

No, I screwed up again. I have dang it I apologize once you start over. I screwed it.

01:14:32

I forgot to hit mute on myself. I'm sorry Sam. That's um, that's on me I apologize. You want to start your timer over again?

01:14:40

That's on me my bad, sorry about that darn it go ahead So anyway

01:14:51

RC spro The Westminster compression declares that his

01:14:59

Oh Man by his fall into a state of sin have wholly lost all the ability and will of any spiritual good accompanying salvation

01:15:09

So as a natural man being altogether averse from that good the dead and sin is dead

01:15:16

Is not able by his own strength to convert himself or to prepare himself there, too if The reform doctrine total depravity has been crystallized into one brief statement it is here

01:15:31

More inability of fallen man is the core concept of the doctrine of total depravity or radical corruption if one embraces this aspect of the

01:15:45

T in the tool of The rest of the acrostic follows by the restless logic

01:15:52

One cannot embrace the T and reject any of the other four letters with any degree of consistency, so This is how come

01:16:03

I mentioned total Depravity because without total depravity that whole thing about unconditional election don't even make sense

01:16:13

It has no place So the thing about what I said about unconditional election the

01:16:20

Westminster Confession declared that God decreed that Some men and angels are predestined to eternal damnation

01:16:29

Now this happened. They're going to eternal damnation not because they did anything wrong

01:16:38

Because what the Calvinists have taught me since I don't really know much about theology

01:16:43

I'm just gonna tell you what the Calvinist taught me They drug me over to Romans chapter 9 and he told me says see right here see right here

01:16:50

Here Jacob and Heresies saw when you see Jacob and Esau and God made choice of them they didn't do any good or evil and By that same token the election of these people who have never done anything wrong

01:17:09

Or Damn to hell They ain't done anything according to what the

01:17:15

Calvinist taught me. They took me there for me to see it So I saw it Okay, so when we talk about Unconditional election from a

01:17:27

Calvinist standpoint of view we have to take into effect that he's electing these other people

01:17:33

Who haven't done anything wrong? I'm not gonna let you rest over there on the side y 'all like to try to show everybody see where he

01:17:40

Elected me, but he elected these as well and he elected these With having done no good or evil

01:17:48

Esau have I hated These people have he hated they haven't done anything, but he hates them.

01:17:55

That's the God that is not my God I don't care what you saying how you try to fix it.

01:18:00

That's not the God of the Bible It's a doggone shame Because they want to just get you this is why

01:18:08

I'm telling you not to give them your mind because they want you to focus Only on the one side of Calvinism and not this other side of Calvinism.

01:18:17

That is also unconditional election They are not see because if if we're to follow what they're saying

01:18:26

He's not looking at anything in the person not their faith Not they're good.

01:18:32

Not they're bad. None of that And it's all the same and especially since he already told us

01:18:38

God is no respect to a person. Oh That's what he told us and that's what we have to believe because he's not

01:18:45

He's not a DC. Don't you don't depend on these things that I depend on I I read the books the

01:18:52

Calvinist so I can understand what they're saying I listen to what they're saying so that when I say what

01:18:57

I'm saying, I'm not making it up So now if you think I'm making this up any of you if you think

01:19:03

I'm making this up Go check you go check the Westminster Confession Go see if it says it.

01:19:10

Not only that it says it is so it is so It cannot be changed

01:19:17

It said that that that that number is so definite that it cannot be changed

01:19:23

This is how come people like James White say babies are going to hell Why because if they're unconditionally elect before the foundation of the world that would mean before they are born

01:19:36

They are already set for hell That's the logical conclusion that follows and he wants me to ignore that other

01:19:45

Calvinist want me to ignore that but I won't because I can read Like the Hebrews like so so we can read now

01:19:51

I can read for myself I don't need for you to determine nothing for me. I don't need you to teach me nothing

01:19:58

I don't know the heck you think you are I Got books I can read if I thought

01:20:03

I was doing the wrong thing. I just quoted you out of R .C Spohr's book. I'm telling you the truth.

01:20:09

Yes, I am. I got enough look look here. Let me show you And you might want to go out and pick this up Calvinism a biblical and theological critique

01:20:20

Good book several authors in that book. I'm reading all the time. So I don't need you to teach me nothing

01:20:26

See I'm saying so to get back to the topic The actual topic is is unconditional election justifiable That's the actual comment and Calvinistic Unconditional election is not justifiable because of the things that I just told you because that's not what our

01:20:47

God does He cares about people. I know that there are some people who bring consequences upon themselves

01:20:54

Just because he just because he puts them down does not mean that that's his heart

01:21:00

If a man's hearts, he loves his hearts, but his heart if his heart breaks his leg

01:21:05

He don't want to kill but he had to take them out But here we have these people who were born sinners because of what

01:21:12

Adam did But he's not looking at that. He's not looking at these people are being sinners

01:21:18

According to this is Calvinist But if you look at the Bible the way, it's really written. God is looking at sinners

01:21:25

He's making mention of sinners and what sinners are doing and the consequences on the sinners matter of fact when it comes to faith

01:21:34

Faith is the principal thing That connects mankind and reunites mankind to God now

01:21:41

He wanted to ignore Genesis 4 and 26 because he didn't want me to say anything about total depravity

01:21:47

But total depravity is the condition where with you have to have unconditional election

01:21:53

If you're not totally deprived you can't have unconditional election. You can't just come out the air with unconditional election

01:22:01

Come on Yet three minutes still you want to you want to use your three minutes

01:22:24

Oh Okay, I guess you're done, okay,

01:22:30

I noticed that they're deleting they're deleting karma links people are bringing up in the Clubhouse, but not the other people's links

01:22:39

Yeah, I can hear you I'm conditioning

01:22:54

My goodness That's that's

01:22:59

Evanescent grace, then I say nothing about that evanescent grace to the Lord Let's see

01:23:09

Predestination we mean the eternal decree of God by which he determined with himself

01:23:14

Whatever he wishes to happen with regard to every man all are not created on equal terms

01:23:20

Some are predestined to eternal life and others eternal damnation and Accordingly as each has been created for one or the other of these ends.

01:23:29

We say that these That he has been predestined to life or predestined to death

01:23:36

Some are predestined to salvation and others to damnation Regarding the loss. It was his good pleasure to doom to destruction

01:23:44

Since the disposition of all things is in the hands of God and he can give life or death at his pleasure

01:23:52

He dispenses and ordains by his judgment that some from their mother's womb are destined irrevocably to eternal death in order to glorify his name and Their prediction predation.

01:24:07

Come on now. I didn't make that up and you didn't teach it to me Let's go you got it

01:24:18

Okay, are you done? I'm done. All right. So now we're supposed to do

01:24:24

I think it is All right, we agreed 15 minutes.

01:24:30

I ask you questions you respond 15 minutes. You ask me questions. I respond, right? Okay. Yeah All right.

01:24:37

Okay. I'm gonna take notes while you are Answering if you're clicking on my typewriter my typewriter

01:24:44

My keyboard, that's what that is if it's too loud just say so I'll try and type more softly Okay, here we go my timer going 15 minutes

01:24:56

Starting. All right. What criteria does God use to elect people for salvation?

01:25:13

The issue there are debates Please Know it you're supposed to answer the question

01:25:24

What criteria? So here's my answer. I have not read one

01:25:29

Bible verse that says people are elected to salvation Yes, you have

01:25:34

Ephesians 1 for he chose us in him before the foundation of the world that we be holy and blameless He predestined us in love.

01:25:40

He predestined us to be adoption. That's salvation That's Ephesians 1 4 and 5 the Greek word is a collect us.

01:25:45

He chose us. That's what it is. Now. I asked you We go over the issue here of God choosing it's either conditional or it's unconditional.

01:25:54

My position is there's no condition in man By which God then elects for salvation. That's a topic.

01:26:00

That means you disagree with that statement. That means you're saying You believe that there's any condition

01:26:12

I Asking questions, so So if the condition either exists that God has a condition for us

01:26:24

He looks at us or he does not look in us. So which is it does God's condition for salvation?

01:26:29

Mean that he's looking at us Deciding based on us or only in him, which is it in us or only in him.

01:26:36

He's looking at his word he made a promise to Abraham and the people that Enter into life they enter into life by faith

01:26:50

Jesus was the one that was chosen. He is the elect and everyone that has faith in him

01:26:57

Enters into that election. We don't have any righteousness of our own. Our righteousness comes from him

01:27:03

Yeah, flipping three nine. That's right. Does God look into the future to see who will choose him? Does he look into the future to see if he would who were choosing well, let's do it this way what it says was whoever has faith so now

01:27:21

I Imagine he was saying whoever has faith

01:27:29

Does God look into the future to see who will choose him? That's the question not whether you have faith or not He had chosen us in him

01:27:49

Before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

01:27:56

In him is in Christ We don't get in Christ without faith because the

01:28:02

Bible says we have access into this grace. Okay, hold on You can you can use your time to preach

01:28:08

But I'm asking a specific question. Does God it's either the case. It's either yes or no

01:28:13

It's either the case that God looks in the future to see he'll choose him or it's not the case that God looks in the

01:28:19

Future seal choosing which is it? No, it's you didn't answer the question which is it he looks into the future or he does not look into the future he gave

01:28:33

Christ and we Obey his faith

01:28:39

That's what the text. Okay, so I didn't ask you that I asked you does he look into the future? Or does he not look into the future?

01:28:46

For sure what we're gonna do. So wait a minute. Hold on. Let me see if I understand your question You're saying that God are you asking me a question?

01:28:55

That is to say that God didn't foresee that mankind would fall and would need faith to be you can ask the questions

01:29:03

You can ask me a question when it's your turn You're not look

01:29:09

I'm I'm asking the questions you can do that you can ask me questions at your turn I'm asking you did

01:29:14

God Look into the future to see who would pick him or did he not look into the future to see who'd pick him?

01:29:22

He knew that those would choose by faith So did he look into the future to know who would choose him by faith or not

01:29:33

Okay, so he did did God learn by doing that did you have to learn This is just something that you came up with so find me a scripture that says

01:29:47

God learned and I will go with you can ask me questions When it's your turn

01:29:54

I'm asking I'm asking the questions now.

01:30:02

So are you saying that you said God looks into the future to see you'll pick him So here's a question related to your answer.

01:30:09

Does that mean God had to learn who would pick him? I haven't found any

01:30:16

Bible verses. They said God had to learn but you know, but don't let me throw this one in there Well, hold on.

01:30:21

The answer is no Because you answered it you said no

01:30:30

All right, that's right. Does God know whatever it would take to bring anyone to faith?

01:30:38

Does he God know whatever it would take to bring anybody to faith? Okay Why doesn't he do it to everybody then that is the question that's the question why

01:30:52

You Want me to answer you want me you want do you want my answer or do you want

01:31:00

I'm trying okay So so my answer is that the Calvinistic God is a narcissistic

01:31:07

Selfish Individual that would know that these people need help and will not help them

01:31:13

Okay, I asked you a question very specific question, but you what you answered in the affirmative

01:31:19

I asked God knows whatever it takes to bring anyone into the faith You brought up 2nd

01:31:24

Peter 3 9 and 1st Timothy 2 4 about God wanting all to be saved. You brought up several times I'm just responding to this because if I don't respond to some of your verses some of your

01:31:31

Your homeboys are gonna say to me all Matt couldn't answer this or Matt couldn't answer that So I'm just doing this a little bit of a sidestep to take the pressure off you about the conditional election thing

01:31:40

So you said that God knows what it takes to bring anybody to faith Then my question is if he knows what it takes

01:31:47

Then why doesn't he bring anybody to say everybody? The Calvinist God it's a narcissistic selfish individual that would not save people even though he know they need safe Okay, so you don't have an answer then

01:32:06

Look saying God Calvinist God saying the Calvinist God is narcissistic isn't the answer.

01:32:11

You see I asked you See my guy doesn't do that That's the

01:32:22

Calvinist God that does that didn't know when you ask the question why I'm telling you Okay, here's another question we've got seven minutes are you familiar with original sin and what it means

01:32:37

Probably What is original sin you define it?

01:32:43

That's the scene that did they committed in the beginning who? Okay, that's not original sin what

01:32:55

Adam and Eve Original sin is the sin that Adam himself committed

01:33:06

Now you said Adam and Eve Do you know what federal headship is So you don't know what federal headship is

01:33:24

Well, what is it I'm asking you the question Okay, that's another question what criteria does

01:33:31

God use to elect people to salvation I Told you before I don't know of any verses that he chose so you don't know

01:33:39

Okay, so does God grant flippance 129 to says to you? It has been granted to believe has been granted isn't the

01:33:46

Greek is the aorist passive indicative I'm not trying to impress you or snow you with stuff like this It just means past tense and that we receive the action of believing.

01:33:55

That's what it says in the Greek. You can check it out. So Do you agree that God God's the one who grants that people have faith

01:34:04

Good good good good. So God grants that they have faith. Why doesn't he grant it to everybody? So I can grant it to them but they have to want it, okay, so Jesus says in John 6 65

01:34:21

He says no one can come to me. This is granted to them from the Father You agree that no one can come to Christ unless it's granted by the

01:34:29

Father I agree that in that context and Jesus was speaking to those Jews what he was saying to them in context

01:34:36

I do not agree with I do not agree with your

01:34:42

You know your premise of what you want to try I didn't I didn't give any premise I So You say you don't know of any verses that says the criteria that God has to elect people

01:34:57

But that's your position My position is the contrary There is no condition in people by which

01:35:05

God would then choose people for salvation You're saying that's false Position Position is that God has criteria he uses to choose people now that means your opinion has to be based on scripture or it's your humanist philosophy if it's

01:35:23

Scripture give me scripture You don't have any scripture. Then you're just admitting is that it's humanist philosophy

01:35:30

Scripture that says you give me the scripture Hold on that says the criteria that God has for electing people for salvation, which you said you don't have any verses

01:35:45

Verses that I know of this is elected to salvation. So now on the other hand according to Romans chapter 11

01:35:57

It says God concluded them all under sin That he might have mercy upon all and from that verse it tells me he's looking at these poor pitiful

01:36:08

Creatures that are captured in sin, and I'm going to have mercy upon them Okay, now what what criteria

01:36:21

What what's the criteria in the Bible show me a verse that says that implies

01:36:27

The criteria that God from the foundation of the world chooses people for salvation

01:36:33

Show me the verses please if you can't Yes, there are verses

01:36:45

I gave you And 2nd Thessalonians 2 13 he chose us in the beginning for salvation

01:36:55

The apostle Paul is not talking about in the beginning of time

01:37:04

He's talking about the beginning of ministry because he's speaking to the Gentiles, right? We should always give thanks to God for you brethren beloved by the

01:37:13

Lord because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through Sanctification by the

01:37:18

Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this. He let me finish it was for this

01:37:24

He called you through our gospel and there's the word again the calling the choosing so it is about salvation now

01:37:32

You admitted you don't have any verses that show your position

01:37:39

Give me a verse. What's the verse? What Romans chapter 11 Romans 11 verse?

01:37:49

God is shut up all under disobedience Yeah, he would have mercy so he is the one that's concluding them all under seeing not the people

01:37:59

He is the one that's concluding their understanding and I'm gonna have mercy on them In those people and that's the condition that they're in and I'm moving up on them because of their condition

01:38:11

Romans 11 32 doesn't have any criteria in there about unconditional Elections I should say for he has set up all into disobedience

01:38:20

That's original sin so that he may show mercy to all know we could talk about who the all is It's really interesting study, but that's not about the issue of the criteria that God uses

01:38:30

When you talk about elect people Don't you finish to elect people for salvation?

01:38:36

That's not a criteria. It just says he shut up all under disobedience There's no criteria in there. You have another verse

01:38:55

You have another verse that shows It doesn't

01:39:02

No, it says he shut up all under disobedience so that he may show mercy to all

01:39:15

We're to say what's in the people that's why he shows favor to them Himself there you go unconditional election

01:39:29

Welcome to Calvinism Welcome to Calvinism very good stuff

01:39:37

Our times up your turn. Go ahead Let me use a restroom. Can I use a restroom break?

01:39:46

And then I'm gonna check on my wife too, so just give me a couple minutes, okay We're here with Matt Slick one of the foremost

01:40:01

Calvinist apologists in the world and I want to say I know I know I'm a little animated but but I really have a great respect for for Matt Slick.

01:40:11

He he's not He's not a chump or or somebody to walk on or disrespect and I'm not trying to disrespect him at all

01:40:21

I'm just being me People to hang around me know how how

01:40:26

I am and I just answer according to what I believe to be true and so I wanted to say that I just I really thank him for taking out the time to Come and have this conversation

01:40:41

Because I'm not I'm nobody y 'all I'm just a regular guy just a regular snow That loves

01:40:47

Jesus and I make an effort to protect what I believe to be true and so I just I'm saying that because I don't want people to Think that I I hold

01:41:01

Mr. Slick as an enemy Calvinism is in but I don't hold mr.

01:41:07

Slick as an enemy I don't hold any of the Calvinist as enemy Even though some people who happen to be

01:41:13

Calvinist have done some things by the which if I if I could you know Walk in the flesh.

01:41:18

I would hold them as in me because he shouldn't have done it, right? But um Matt Slick is not my enemy.

01:41:24

In fact while he's here not I wrote a book called mr. Slick and the electric company Unmasking Calvinism it is on Amazon.

01:41:32

Also. I wrote a book 19 minutes to Calvinism Logically what follows they're both on Amazon you can check them out really good books not because I wrote them

01:41:42

But hey, I did a good job. I did a whole year's worth of study and research and you may not like my theology but then again you might

01:41:53

You might want to dip a little bit into what I wrote Now the mr.

01:41:59

Slick in my book is not naturally it's just I use that because Story that he told me one time and I use that story as a premise to Help to undergird the fact of what faith as a requirement for salvation is

01:42:20

So Yeah, check out those books. I also have a I have some gospel music projects out there

01:42:27

One on this pastor Sam and the household faith It's on Amazon not on you can't you can't stream it you have to buy it and also the new

01:42:35

Jack preacher and anointed Inspirations really good stuff. I'm talking about this stuff because I'm not trying to carry on the conversation without Broke slick and I'm trying to allow him the opportunity to get a sandwich or water and take your wife's and girls thing

01:42:48

Did you check my wife? She's okay. Yeah, he's a restroom. So you've got 10 minutes. Okay?

01:42:54

Um, okay, so So, let's go back to Thessalonians, I got some stuff written down but when we was over at Thessalonians, oh

01:43:02

I just want to see I want to see What you're thinking is

01:43:09

Because you you you kind of rushed past the Thessalonians Second Thessalonians 213, you know

01:43:20

It's first this song is our second person second Thessalonians 213, okay watch this

01:43:28

But we are bound to give thanks always to God brother right the love of the

01:43:35

Lord because God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through Specification of the spirit and belief of the truth now to be honest to be clear.

01:43:45

No, no, because I think we both be honest I don't see that beginning as the beginning of time

01:43:51

Obviously you do but I don't I just see it as the beginning just like in John wrote in his epistle speaking to his

01:44:00

People about the beginning. Okay, so here's what it says Chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the spirit and belief of the truth so The belief of the truth and Sanctification of the spirit is not the chosen.

01:44:21

That's not that's not those are not conditions by which you'd be in children Yeah, I'm asking a question

01:44:31

And does it the does it the does it does the faith come by hearing and hearing by the

01:44:37

Word of God? Yes, Romans 10 9 or 10. Yes Those are conditions by which we get into Christ.

01:44:45

You cannot get into Christ without faith Or are you saying that God is just putting people in in Christ without any

01:44:56

No No, the phrase in Christ is dealing with federal headship and Romans 6 6 it says we died with Christ in Romans 6 8

01:45:05

We're crucified with Christ Colossians 3 1 through 3 talks about us having died with Christ.

01:45:10

So he was crucified 2 ,000 years ago We're not made in Christ by our faith, but we're made in Christ by God who says in Ephesians 1 4

01:45:19

He chose us in him in Christ before the foundation of the world So being a crisis for the foundation of the world, right?

01:45:28

We're not in Christ before the foundation of the world without faith We don't exist if you do that, you're negating the cross.

01:45:37

We don't exist. No, we're not negating the cross True or false does the

01:45:45

Bible say we have access into this grace through faith. Yes Yes, true. So does that mean that you can get in Christ without faith?

01:45:55

No, it doesn't work like that. It's wrong Are you saying then no you cannot get in Christ without faith.

01:46:05

No, it's not the right question because it doesn't Demonstrating you don't understand what

01:46:18

No, it demonstrates you don't understand the question False so you can't get in Christ without faith false

01:46:36

You can't get it. Exactly. So false. You're not asking the right question because you don't understand

01:46:45

I'm not asking the right question. I'm asking you to explain it. I'll tell you I'm telling you don't understand it.

01:46:55

I offered to explain it. You don't want me to It's all gonna be based on on the understanding of being elected

01:47:08

Into Christ without faith Is it true or false that he that comes to God must believe that he is you must believe and what the

01:47:22

Is that reason? Yes, that's correct, okay, so is it also true that you cannot come to God unless you believe

01:47:36

That's true. Okay. So what I'm trying to understand is how is it that people are?

01:47:44

in Christ in eternity or in present time without faith

01:47:50

Because they hadn't existed yet when God elected I'm trying to answer

01:47:59

I was I was trying to answer you cut me off Finish what

01:48:10

I was saying Okay They were the Bible says Ephesians 1 for he chose us in him before the foundation of the world

01:48:20

We didn't have faith then because we didn't exist then God has to grant that we have faith

01:48:25

And the reason he grants we have faith is because he's the one who called us in Christ to be redeemed any grants that faith

01:48:31

When is time? Did not

01:48:48

Faith occurs when you believe they weren't existing before the foundation of the world So, how could he grant them faith that they didn't exist?

01:48:55

I don't know because I thought I read a verse that says that the lamb was slain before the foundation of the world

01:49:01

So yeah Wait a minute. I'm saying was that with the lamb was slain?

01:49:06

What was the lame slain? What was the lamb slain for? I'm saying the redemption of work

01:49:13

If you want to ask me a question, I'd be glad to answer But if you want to just go ahead and ask questions to keep talking that's up to you.

01:49:19

I'm waiting for your questions You if you have a question, please ask me the question and I'll try and answer your questions

01:49:29

And you say that I didn't ask I didn't ask the right question I did ask you was he that comes to God a person cannot come to God without faith true or false

01:49:43

They cannot they could only come to God with faith because God grants that they go I'm doing the answer.

01:49:53

He keeps cutting me off my answer You did and all

01:50:02

I'm saying is are you saying that in eternity God did not great.

01:50:09

So you saying he learned something? Because if he didn't do it in eternity, he's waiting for them to do something

01:50:21

That's you asking me a question are you asking are you telling me I'm actually commentating on what you said to me

01:50:28

I'm just trying to figure out so is that accurate that he knows not looking down in the future because a minute ago

01:50:35

I've been in the future. What I'm saying is that he he had to grant them the faith in Eternity in Christ because the only way in Christ is in faith

01:50:45

That's all I'm asking So are you now saying that God is looking down through time and eternity to see who's gonna have faith?

01:50:53

Is that what you're saying? No Okay, so explain to me God grants we have faith.

01:50:59

He doesn't grant people faith before the foundation of the world because they don't exist yet But Christ does

01:51:06

No, Christ did not the second person of the truth. I can explain it Christ is

01:51:11

Jesus Jesus came into existence 2 ,000 years ago at the union of the divine and human nature that union occurred 2 ,000 years ago

01:51:19

That's Christ. He the pre -incarnate Christ is the second person of the Trinity But wait a minute in Christ We cannot get in Christ without faith

01:51:39

No, it's not faith is not the criteria Okay, you don't ask many questions she's just talking

01:51:47

I'm trying to find out what you were saying because you saying two different things So let me listen

01:51:54

Tell me again Okay, tell me about how faith

01:52:05

In Christ we get in we have access into this grace through faith But he didn't grant it at the beginning.

01:52:15

He's gonna grant it later on Yet at the same time you're saying to me that he didn't look down through time

01:52:24

Sure election occurred occurs in the Inter -trinitarian communion the father son

01:52:30

Holy Spirit the father is the one who elected and chose people in Christ in Christ is a term of Federal headship, which means that Christ represented his people you can go to Romans 5 18 for that And that's what it clearly says in first printed 1522 in Adam all die in Christ all should have made alive

01:52:47

So this deals with the issue of the incarnation future declaration of the incarnation and the crucifixion a propitiatory sacrifice

01:52:55

It's only in that can we then be redeemed and when that happens? I'm a God in Colossians 2 14 finish the atoning sacrifice of the two -story sacrifice at the cross

01:53:05

Canceling the sin debt at the cross not when you believe it's canceled at the cross He grants that we believe we've been 129 when we exist

01:53:13

He didn't grant that we have faith before then because we didn't exist But he did grant that we the elect would be in Christ Before the foundation of the world then when we believe later on he then grants that we have faith.

01:53:25

That's how that works Before the foundation of the world

01:53:50

Because That was that's

01:53:57

Calvinism, yes, it is. I know what it Is The Son of God has always been

01:54:20

Christ the Son of God Yet he was manifested through time and came into this existence

01:54:27

But he's always been Christ the Son of God and if we go by what you're saying then being in him

01:54:34

Before the foundation of the world times up you're preaching. Do I get equal time to respond to what you're saying?

01:54:40

Because Okay, are you how long you would do for closing three minutes

01:55:05

Three minutes, let's do three minutes three minutes closing. All right There it is three minutes, okay

01:55:15

Three minutes My fancy phone There we go, it's going come on get in there too, okay, so First of all, thanks for being here.

01:55:27

I hope we have a discussion free a discussion afterwards on different topics But nevertheless

01:55:34

To me, it's obvious. No disrespect meant he doesn't understand Calvinism as well as he thinks he does I can offer to teach him about original sin and the issue of federal headship and how they relate to election and predestination so the issue here that we're debating is the issue of unconditional election

01:55:54

What it means is that God either chooses people for salvation

01:56:00

Based something only in him or something external to him Namely the good stuff in other people because that is what it has to be that God would then choose people based on the goodness

01:56:09

Of them the good hearts the good nature the good everything of them and that's why he would choose them and I brought this up He's not responded to that.

01:56:17

He's not showing me any scriptures that demonstrate that that is the case He could show me a scripture and it didn't have anything to do with what he said.

01:56:23

That's unfortunate He's misunderstood what we teach about reformed theology doesn't understand it. No disrespect meant seriously, but I know it very well

01:56:32

I've defended it thousands of times for over 30 years I know what it is and I can tell you that though he may have a smattering of an understanding of it he's not reading or or Understanding it because one of the tests would be

01:56:44

Teach it to me as if you believed it to see if you understand that position That's one of the things I do in my debates when

01:56:50

I want to know some other person's position I need to be able to address it in such a way that my opponent would say.

01:56:56

Yes, that's correct. That's what we teach That's what needs to be done. And so far I can tell you that he's not doing that So he's not demonstrated why the condition of God from all eternity is based on anything outside of himself the verse that he went to did not do that and I Explained that what he is saying is that the goodness of man is what

01:57:14

God will imply Implies that God looks into the future to see who's going to pick him see what he's going to happen

01:57:19

See what's going to be and that's why God chooses him That's called favoritism Ladies and gentlemen for all those you were listening to me who hate what

01:57:26

I say and who are hate mongers because I know who you You hate the idea that God is the one who elects based on what's in him not what is in us the humanist philosophy of conditional election people this position which is humanist philosophy that God looks into the future or knows the future conditions or the future choices of Individuals by which he will then judge them for salvation and elect them is humanism

01:57:51

It's humanist philosophy because it puts man at the center of salvation Though the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ is sufficient in and of itself to declare and propitiate

01:58:00

Man is the one who has to activate it by his faith by his wisdom by his goodness And that's the condition that God elects according to them and that is without a doubt called humanist philosophy

01:58:11

He's not refuted the position. He's not answered it from Scripture and he's failed to present his position Okay Okay So so now he can say what you want to say, but you're ready

01:58:26

Yeah, I'm ready. He didn't know he didn't refute the fact that unconditional election

01:58:34

According to Calvinism is damning people to hell not because of anything in them

01:58:42

But simply because that's what the Calvinist God wants to do It's just kill and he keeps he keeps affirming it, but he won't surrender to the fact that that's the truth

01:58:53

The people that are going to hell Because God is not partial. He's just sending them to hell

01:59:00

You don't care about no federal headship. None of that. They're going to hell you hear me

01:59:06

They are going to be damned because the God of Calvinism says so Not because of they anything that they did see because here's the thing if God concluded them all under sin

01:59:18

Right, follow me. Don't don't listen to deception if he concluded them all under sin and He is going to save some of them.

01:59:28

He has to consider that the other people Are not going based on what?

01:59:36

It would have to be based on the what was inside of it So unless he's unless God is looking at everybody as a sinner

01:59:46

This group over here have never been sinners. They've never been in jeopardy.

01:59:52

They've been in that Functional condemnation stuff that he comes up with it's not in the

01:59:57

Bible the stuff There's so many things that the Calvinists say are not biblical at the listen

02:00:04

They're not biblical context because they don't care what the original authors was talking about. They don't care

02:00:10

The only thing that they care about is protecting Calvinism Calvinism is completely Unnecessary, there's no need for Calvinism.

02:00:18

It never was it never will be it is completely a false Heretical doctrine it has three components to deconstruct the faith of the true believer to call sinners that are already hopeless to become more hopeless and to nullify the true cross of Christ Faith doesn't matter because they have unconditional regeneration.

02:00:44

He won't tell you about that either Because God is regenerating people But if you go and look at what regeneration is regeneration is new birth and the

02:00:52

Bible says we are the children of God by faith The new creature happens because of faith their soteriology begins with unconditional election

02:01:06

Our soteriology begins with the cross and that's all that's necessary The cross of Christ the blood of Christ the resurrection

02:01:16

That's what's necessary God have already gave given mankind the ability to choose because we see it again in Genesis He wants you to ignore

02:01:26

Genesis 4 and 26 It says these people began to call on the name of the

02:01:32

Lord And the only people that would dismiss that are haters people that hate

02:01:38

God's Word People that hate the truth people that hate the foundation of Christianity Okay, well that's end of the debate

02:01:52

I do thank you for coming Hey Questions just talk.

02:01:59

They'll talk you and me I'm pastor Sam. Welcome. You got cut the cross my we have had a lively Fellowship In this debate with Matt Slick, it's been a long time coming for a whole lot of people

02:02:16

Matt because they've been running around Bouncing back and forth out of my Out of my back page.

02:02:23

You got a debate message. You got a debate message. I'm like, whatever the Lord knows what he's doing We'll we'll have our conversation when that time comes.

02:02:31

So once again, thank you for Participating and allow me to enter into this conversation with you

02:02:39

And the Lord says the same maybe one day we'll do it again That's the end of the debate. So anybody that's in here that's in you got cut the cross mob

02:02:48

Wants to leave you can leave you want to stay we're gonna have we're just gonna we're just gonna throw stuff up against the wall

02:02:55

See what stick we just have a conversation. I think we can do that. So I'm done Okay, let's get

02:03:02

Wesley on see if he has a question for either one of us The guy right there

02:03:10

Device is not connected. It was just there dude. You were on see pastor Sam Look, if you look at the bottom of the screen, you can see

02:03:18

Charlie Joanne Yeah, so you can see it inside the computer

02:03:33

I mean inside the room you're in it with me But Wesley Elliot was up and he

02:03:38

I clicked on him He had his face in the whole bit and then it went dead. It says device is not connected Okay, do you have any discuss any particular thing

02:03:57

Not you know, I mean we talked about this, you know, I just mentioned unconditional regenerate

02:04:04

I got a question for you Am I your enemy? I mean no

02:04:10

You want me to go to hell? No Then why did you say in your discussion here?

02:04:17

Sam Lattimore and cherry hope Calvinist burn in hell and dislike the doctrine of vipers and diapers I have the

02:04:22

YouTube link right here, and I'll put it in Right here on the chat room

02:04:28

There it is. Put it in here. You can see it. And this is what you said. You said this

02:04:34

I'll read it at 504 at that link Quote, I don't see how any black person could really want to be a

02:04:41

Calvinist if they know the history of Calvinism now He treated black people and avail the history of Calvinism how he treated black people

02:04:47

Raping them and telling them is the divine will of God that thought I think I missed something there Sending and calling it all right with God then 535 you said

02:04:56

I said it and I hope they go in hell Do you take that back? No, I don't take that back at all

02:05:04

You hope you'll put a spurt in hell Anybody that thinks that God Has pure day

02:05:16

For my people to suffer what they suffered at the hands of white people in this country

02:05:21

Let them burn in here. Let them burn ten times hotter. Do you understand? Okay, so whatever it is

02:05:28

Because now because they imprisoned or they slayed black people which white people were slave to but Right, but I'm not talking about white people.

02:05:35

I'm talking about the people that enslaved my people And did it under the Calvinist Predetermination unconditional dirt thing that they did.

02:05:46

I hope they burn in hell ten times hotter my friend. Okay, this is not against all white people.

02:05:52

This is not against you This is against the people who did what they did in the name of Calvinism the ones that drove those ships and hung people from Trees and did all this stuff in the name

02:06:03

So, okay, then Are liars and deceivers in Calvinism?

02:06:08

Are they your enemies by any chance? Listen Calvinism Calvinism is a deception

02:06:19

Calvinist or DC I Have not called the Calvinist my enemy at any time

02:06:33

You said y 'all ain't nothing but some liars and deceivers

02:06:38

That's what you all are Every one of you every one of you

02:06:44

Matt slick Rick slick Every one of you you're inside of Christ.

02:06:49

So am I a liar and deceiver? You are you see for some? So am

02:06:58

I outside of Christ Okay, so then can you show me from the scriptures what

02:07:04

I teach that makes me outside of Christ But remember I believe Jesus is God He died in the cross three days later rose from the dead at salvations by faith in Christ alone

02:07:15

You can have faith in him and that is what saves you and justifies you So yeah

02:07:23

Okay, what is functional Condemnation, what is that? What's what?

02:07:29

Functional condemnation explain that to me. I don't know what you mean by functional condemnation Well, you're the one that invented you the one that said

02:07:36

I got it. I don't know what functional condemnation is You're the one that invented with Sam Shimon asked you were these people that were elected were they ever in jeopardy and you said no

02:07:50

And he asked you how and you explained to him punching condemnation, which was okay in that context now

02:07:58

I know what you mean Okay, so these people so so so here's the thing you you have people who are saying

02:08:06

Outside of Christ. They are saying no, we don't you don't we don't know. Okay, so I can get hold on Hold on.

02:08:13

So what you're saying is a Person that is unconditionally elected can go to hell.

02:08:19

No, okay So here so wait a minute. Hold on at what point? Can they go to hell

02:08:28

They can't if they're unconditionally Right because God doesn't make a mistake and he doesn't lose anybody

02:08:39

You ask me questions once let me finish my sentences You do this and the people in your room do this all the time you ask me a question go in there anymore

02:08:50

I don't trust any of you guys. I go in there. You ask me a question I start to answer and you interrupt me all the time

02:08:57

Well, I don't want you to keep interrupting me. Okay God doesn't lose anybody

02:09:04

John 637 through 40 doesn't lose anyone. Okay Well, what's your question again, let's get back on on on board

02:09:16

So my question is that these people were never in jeopardy. They have never been

02:09:23

Unsaved they're always saved they were saved from before the foundation of the world

02:09:29

No, they weren't. They weren't So they could have gone to hell they're elected before the foundation of the world salvation

02:09:42

Let me know when you're finished talking so I can talk without being interrupted yet again, okay,

02:09:47

I'm trying to understand How I'm trying to understand how people are

02:09:57

Elected and yet not say when

02:10:05

I'm being told that they are Regenerated before they receive faith

02:10:13

I'm trying to understand. Okay, how are people elected and not saved and that we regenerated what?

02:10:25

People are being regenerated before they receive faith. Okay, before the in cabinet

02:10:31

Okay, that's two separate questions. Do you want me to answer each one? I just This one question for me because what

02:10:39

I'm saying is Here's what I'm saying. So so that you won't be so you won't be confused

02:10:45

What I'm in fact saying is that the election according to what Calvinism presents those people have always been

02:10:54

Saved they are always Saved whether you believe it or not. That's what the doctrine is because it's telling me they are regenerated the only

02:11:05

Regeneration that is in the Bible is a new birth The new birth does not take place without faith according to the script.

02:11:17

You want me to address anything or you just teaching? I'm Talking to you.

02:11:22

I'm talking to you. I ain't talking. I ain't teaching nobody nothing I'm telling you what the doctrine does as far as you tell me if I'm wrong

02:11:31

They're unconditionally elected and then they're regenerated and then they receive faith.

02:11:37

Is that true or not? Unconditional election is something different that leads to regeneration preceding faith.

02:11:43

But do you know the difference between regeneration preceding faith logically and temporally? And that don't even matter you can do it logically you can do it temporally it's not going to happen

02:11:55

Okay, faith is not so calm Logically or temporally faith is not going to be before it isn't right

02:12:03

So if you want to understand what we teach I can explain it to you I already know the up -down sideways thing that you're going to do you can do it again

02:12:11

But I already know what you're doing because I've heard this before but what I'm saying to you man

02:12:17

Refuse to accept is that your doctrine teaches Regeneration before faith whether you do it logically or temporally faith is not going to happen before the person is regenerate

02:12:33

Whenever I go to rooms and I talk and people continue to interrupt me I stop talking to them I'm on the verge of doing that with you.

02:12:39

You continue to interrupt me. So what's it gonna be?

02:12:47

I'm gonna ask me a question I'm waiting for you to finish because I want to know if I'm gonna be able to You keep interrupting me

02:13:04

You asked me a question and I was explaining to you. I'm gonna explain it one more time didn't shut up According to what

02:13:12

Calvinists have told me whether it's logically however, they want to do it

02:13:20

There's unconditioned election There's regeneration Faith does not happen temporally or logically

02:13:31

Before regeneration if that's true

02:13:38

They is true If it's not true say it's not true. I'm done

02:13:44

Okay, I'll teach you what our position is because you don't understand. I don't care You said you were gonna be quiet You go again if you continue to do this then the conversations over you continue to interrupt me

02:13:57

I continually said, please don't do that. You said you were gonna shut up and that's your words You said you're gonna shut up.

02:14:04

I'm not telling you shut up. You said you're gonna do that I wait you start you're done. You keep quiet.

02:14:10

You shut up and then I start talking and you know again Now what's it gonna be? You let me answer without you interrupt me yet again over and over and over again

02:14:22

This is what you guys do your hatred motivates you to do this Now you're interrupting me again.

02:14:28

Are you interrupting me? You're gonna be finished I'll explain to you the difference between temporal and logical

02:14:39

Regeneration the orders are logical versus temporal. I'll give you an illustration Temporal priority is this you have a light bulb

02:14:49

Electricity goes into the light bulb five seconds later. The light is a result of the electricity

02:14:55

That's called temporal priority. The electricity is temporal time temporally prior to the light five seconds in this illustration

02:15:05

Logical priority says that both the light and the electricity occur at the same time

02:15:11

However, it's the electricity that causes the light not the light that causes electricity

02:15:17

So though they are simultaneous One of them is logically prior to the other

02:15:23

Electricity is logically prior Taking that logic. We believe that regeneration precedes faith

02:15:31

Logically, but they're simultaneous that God grants that we have faith Philippians 129 and also grants that we're regenerated born again first Peter 1 3

02:15:40

That they occur at the same time But the regenerative work of God is the thing that allows us to be able to believe they happen at the same time not

02:15:48

Temporally distinct. Okay Your your your your microphone

02:15:56

So, but you would have took it as an offense so if you would

02:16:01

Could you do that again? Your mics me? My mic was muted your mic is me.

02:16:09

I'm looking at it right now No, I'm talking. I'm telling you Oh Dang it on Clubhouse.

02:16:20

Okay on Clubhouse. Here we go. All right I'll do it again as fast without one too fast

02:16:28

Temporal priority versus logical priority. This is the answer to the issue and reform theology of regeneration preceding faith

02:16:36

In and the illustration I give is a light bulb when you have electricity entering a light bulb and five seconds later the light

02:16:44

Manifests that's called temporal priority where the electricity is temporarily prior to the light because it takes five seconds for the light to come on Electricity is a cause of the light

02:16:55

That's called temporal priority Logical priority is different. It says that when the electricity is there light is there at the same time?

02:17:04

They occur simultaneously however Electricity is the cause of the light not like the cause of electricity

02:17:12

Therefore since electricity is a cause of light then electricity is what's called logically prior.

02:17:17

They're temporal I mean they are a simultaneous But one causes the other even though they're simultaneous in Christian reform theology

02:17:26

What we say is that it's logical priority that regeneration precedes faith not temporally

02:17:32

We don't say that for example that if someone believes then five seconds later

02:17:37

They're regenerated then you'd have an unregenerate believer for a period of time. We don't say that someone's

02:17:43

Regenerated and then comes to believe five seconds later Because then you'd have a regenerate person who's not a believer for a period of time and this is logically very problematic

02:17:51

What we say is no God grants that we have faith flippans 129 grants that we

02:17:57

Are born again cause you born again first Peter 1 3 they're simultaneous But God grants regeneration and we naturally believe as a result of regenerative work that God works in us.

02:18:08

That's called logical priority That's what it means. Okay, go ahead. Thanks for letting me talk. Okay We are about just about at the end of this but let me say this

02:18:21

All of the things that Matt Slick said Won't happen

02:18:28

Unless the power company turns on the power the power company has said

02:18:36

Mrs. Ling in the the power in the entire neighborhood

02:18:43

Will be restored to everybody on the block however everybody on the block

02:18:51

The the head of the power company says that you have to come down to The power company and shake his hand if you shake his hand, he will turn your power on Now the only thing stopping the power from coming to the house is that the person in the house doesn't believe the message that The gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believe

02:19:20

To the Jew first and also to the Greek for therein is the righteousness of God revealed these this doctrine was formulated by the devil to cause people to not believe that God loves them and It wants to convince the true believers that this is also true

02:19:42

While at the same time simultaneously saying okay That the cross is a secondary matter

02:19:49

God is going to born you again, and then you receive faith That's what that's what the doctrine teaches all this logically and all this other stuff

02:20:00

This is just a smoke and mirrors to keep you from understanding that the only foundation for The sinner and God is faith and Yes, God grants because he granted it when

02:20:17

Christ rose from the grave. We have the ministry of reconciliation That's what it is.

02:20:23

He's already granted He's already determined that mankind everywhere repent that's in the

02:20:30

Bible But these people want us to ignore that because that's what their doctrine does it teaches those things.

02:20:37

So again All this logically and temporally and all of that stuff is just a smokescreen

02:20:43

We have to follow the plan of God The gospel is preached people believe it or not

02:20:53

It's that simple it ain't even hard they want to make it like see here's I'm gonna say this and I'm shutting off it's so crazy that These elect people don't nobody know who they are, but yet they got it

02:21:08

And again, he has never addressed not once These unconditionally elect over here that are going to hell for no reason

02:21:18

Yeah, he's not addressed at one time because that's what the doctrine promotes.

02:21:23

It's not his doctrine It's what was written before he was born that these people are unchangeably designed and They are going to hell

02:21:33

Except something that's not my condition unconditional election Unconditional election deals with salvation not damnation reprobation

02:21:49

Unconditional election for salvation Okay, but you're saying you're trying to say that these other people were chosen on the condition what was their condition

02:22:01

No, no, they're naturally sinners by nature children of wrath Ephesians 2 3 I guess

02:22:10

I can't answer interrupt again I'll teach

02:22:26

I'll teach you what the answer is Romans 5 19 I'm gonna teach you to be taught

02:22:56

Okay, I'm trying to answer your question to show you from Scripture Now You want

02:23:03

Ephesians 2 3 because Paul wrote that he said by nature were children of wrath Why are we by nature children of wrath because of what?

02:23:11

Happened in all they closed the room They kicked me out They kicked me out of the room.

02:23:21

They kicked me out of the room Wow, you know, you know what pastor pastor

02:23:29

Sam they kicked me out of that room. They did Wow Now I was gonna teach him from Romans 5 19 right why

02:23:38

Ephesians 2 3 is what it is because they're related It's smoke and mirrors Matt. Okay.

02:23:45

Whoo Everybody Wow Okay, let's go here we go

02:23:51

I'm gonna hold I'm gonna go into Okay, except there we go Okay, there we go.

02:23:58

I thought it was it they they kicked me out of the other room or they closed it And Sam just left he just bailed

02:24:07

He wanted to go to Ephesians 2 3. I don't know if you heard And I'm good. Okay, I'm gonna explain it.

02:24:13

We have to go to Romans 5 19, which explains why? Ephesians 2 3 is what it is by nature children of wrath because of what

02:24:20

Adam did that's the foundation Kicked me out and he left Well, I'm gonna tell you

02:24:25

I Gotta just tell you guys he does not know Calvinism. He does not know logic. He does not understand a critical thinking

02:24:32

He is not able to hold a candle to the issues of the scriptures He did not demonstrate any condition by which

02:24:37

God elects people for salvation based on any condition in them He failed to do that repeatedly and in the verse that he allegedly went to that showed that had nothing to do with it

02:24:46

It was really something Romans 11 32 for God has shut up all in disobedience

02:24:52

So that he might show mercy to all that doesn't show the criteria by which God then elects people for salvation That was the best he could do and he failed to do it.

02:25:00

He I'm sorry, but he doesn't know what he's doing He does not know what he's doing. All right, let's

02:25:06

I'm gonna hear from oh, man. Look who it is It always I always talk to it like that Hey, how are you?

02:25:17

Well, I did have a question for So, are you one of those are you a slimy anti Calvinist No, I'm talking to oh that reminds me hey, wait a minute, wait a minute

02:25:33

I'm gonna do here what I do No, I'm gonna hold on guys. I'm gonna change the speaker setup so that everybody can hear everybody

02:25:41

All right. So hold on. It's gonna take me about 30 seconds or to a minute. I'll talk while I'm doing it

02:25:48

I'm in clubhouse doing this. All right Okay, wait no that not that one not that one has to be this one now you should be able to hear me in clubhouse right

02:26:04

Which one? Okay. Oh Thank you, and he won't be forthright and open and tell everybody in the room because everybody's in there chatting about it.

02:26:26

Did he leave? sister Terry got up there I Tell him he they kicked me out you go back in and make sure they know they kicked me out

02:26:41

I'm disappointed but not surprised. That's right. I did not leave. I'm sitting here all sudden. Boom the screen

02:26:46

I go what I'm gone They I didn't believe they did it. Those guys are

02:26:54

Don't Show It's right, well,

02:27:06

I think he got his rear handed to him that's what I think. Hey, okay go Ed This is

02:27:13

Ed Romine Yeah, this is

02:27:22

Ed Romine and he has a PhD Now you got to give him some slack because he's real uppity about how much better he is than everybody else because he has a

02:27:30

PhD No Well, that makes me feel weird, okay, so he's a good guy

02:27:42

I've got two observations from that. I never once Heard what he believed said in a positive manner

02:27:54

All all he did was rail against Election he did he didn't prove that unconditional election

02:28:05

Was or wasn't a thing and it sounded like he didn't believe in election in any sense

02:28:12

So it's not even as though he was a thoughtful non -Calvinist and the second observation is

02:28:24

I can't help but wonder since he thought highly of himself enough to put pastor in his title

02:28:32

If he actually pastors a flock It just kind of makes me wonder if he treats his flock that way when they come to him with spiritual questions

02:28:45

Because that's abuse if he does Yeah Good observation brother.

02:28:51

That's right And if he can hear that I Would say to you

02:28:57

Sam You are disqualified from the ministry. I would never sit under your pastorate and It just makes me very sad

02:29:10

Yeah, I agree He doesn't understand and he doesn't know what he's just he's criticizing, but that's the case with that cross mob group

02:29:18

They are that are hate mongers and they really are and I was reading what he said

02:29:24

I Hope they burn in hell. He said it and I oh, I forgot

02:29:30

Joanne's when he gave me that link But here check this out. This is utter stuff. Let's see

02:29:36

That they said here I'm gonna get to it Yeah He said so pastor

02:29:45

Sam said he said that I have all sorts of tricks He's only safe places the truth

02:29:52

So he said I have tricks. That's what he was saying. This is on November 18th 2024 I'm in under a different name listening to them talk.

02:29:58

I was there for a long time taking notes while I'm working on karm and he says

02:30:06

Total battery's not biblical Those who teach Calvinism quote cause sinners who are in hopeless despair to be even more despair

02:30:13

Calls it the nullification of the gospel Calvinists are not Christians those who are believers come out of it

02:30:20

And then sister chair and go to what she says. She's just she's wicked And go on and on Sister cherry said that Calvinists say that God is the active cause of evil.

02:30:31

We don't say that it's not Calvinism So anyway, I go on and on but man, they do not know what they're doing.

02:30:39

They are a hate group Now the only reason I debated him is because I gave my word by just simply saying months ago, yes,

02:30:46

I'll debate you Before I realized what was going on who they all were but I said it so I had to follow through and that's what happened

02:30:52

Tonight, so I'm done Yeah, one more thing if I may And this is the irony.

02:31:00

This might be the most ironic of the observations when he was spewing hatred towards The white man that own slave and he asked him to go to hell

02:31:15

That was actually the very same attitude that he was putting on to God The quote -unquote

02:31:21

Calvinist God Yeah, it's as bad okay, so guys in a clubhouse, what do you got

02:31:35

Doing all right, man by God's grace Just one question

02:31:42

Yes Respects, you know

02:32:18

You notice that that respect went out the way though When it came time for the cross -examination

02:32:26

Notice that when when when Francis said is being asked the questions. He's like he's being he's being completely arrogant

02:32:33

He's not he's choosing by not to answer questions And then when he starts to be able to ask questions, he's belligerent

02:32:44

You can't have your cake and eat it to him. It's like that as far as I'm concerned

02:32:51

Well, he couldn't establish his position nor could he defend his position so I mean that's just the way it is

02:33:04

But he did upset me by getting continually interrupting That gets me people continually do that.

02:33:09

Let me finish. Let me answer the question. He didn't want that He didn't want that In addition to It in addition

02:33:21

Represented your position That Charlie's here says you read mr. Business in my position.

02:33:27

Which way did he do that? Which half which one? Every which way you can look at it.

02:33:32

Yeah, I was I was amused when he was Seeming to pull rank on you by reading from RC Sproul and reading from the

02:33:41

Westminster Confession Stuff like that. That's not what I respect. I respect the

02:33:46

Word of God I wish he would have tried backing up what he said with Scripture that would have been more reasonable and more palatable

02:33:53

But no, all he had is his wild accusations and baseless bumper sticker slogans

02:34:01

Yeah, and we're almost 1132 for God to shut up all in disobedience so he might show mercy to all that's how

02:34:08

God elects people for salvation Yeah, that's the criteria Okay He says oh god he's able to say people but he chooses not to that makes

02:34:29

God evil He says if God is able to save these people and he chooses not to that makes God evil

02:34:34

And I asked him and you did too Matt. Is your God able to save everyone you said does he know what it would take?

02:34:41

Everyone say he said yes Why doesn't he do that and in both in either case you have a

02:34:47

God who is able to save everyone And yet for whatever reason he chooses not to save everyone

02:34:52

He doesn't have an answer for that according to him if God is able and he doesn't that makes God evil

02:34:57

But under his view to God is able and he still does not choose and he kept Answering from the

02:35:03

Calvinist perspective. I knew that asking that question. He would say well the Calvinist got an altruist.

02:35:08

Whatever does that? It's not what I'm asking. I'm asking your position. Why doesn't your God choose to save everyone since he's able?

02:35:16

You know, he doesn't have an answer for that. That makes this Johnny And if God knows who's gonna pick him and who's not gonna pick him because he knows the future and Yet he knows people are gonna go to hell and he makes them knowing they're going to hell

02:35:31

Then isn't he making them so that they can go to hell No No, he's not making them.

02:35:38

I disagree with that one. If that's your position No, that's not my position.

02:35:44

So freedom. Oh, let me ask you freedom. Yes. Are you a Calvinist or not? Just so I know where you're coming from Calvinism Okay, well we see the reason

02:36:03

I ask is so we can find out what you actually believe so do you affirm Tulip on well

02:36:09

IP or not Okay, I don't

02:36:19

Yeah, I don't yeah, I don't think so either. I don't think you really understand what the issues are here yet. So Anybody else want to ask something?

02:36:53

And then he's saying that we teach What that we teach that they're they're safe and before they exist

02:37:01

How can he be saved if you don't exist, you know, you're elected before they exist He didn't want to hear you want to hear any answer.

02:37:08

That's hyper Calvinism what he was saying Yeah But notice that that's the that's the angle that all of them take when it comes to the argument against Calvinism You're going to see this consistent through life the only consistent quote -unquote

02:37:26

Calvinist is a hyper Calvinist That's the only thing that they know how to argue against and then what happens is if you're not the hyper

02:37:36

Calvinist Then what do they say? Well, then we're not talking to you or what you're talking about. Is it

02:37:41

Calvinism? So their entire argument is gauged toward the hyper Calvinist So if you're not a

02:37:48

Calvinist, then they'll just say oh well then you're just not a Calvinist Yeah, they know

02:37:55

Calvinism better than we do and what they decided is is what it has to be and if we disagree with Them then we don't understand

02:38:01

Calvinism That's how it works You're right Choice in the matter

02:38:28

Okay, you want to know what it is Yeah, all right There's lots of angles to jump in.

02:38:35

I'll just jump in from one one of them when Adam sinned We fell in him.

02:38:41

That's Romans 5 19 and What Romans 5 19 says is this

02:38:47

I'll read it to you For as through one man's disobedience the many were made sinners

02:38:55

So Adam sin made us sinners That's what it says.

02:39:01

Okay, you with me? all right, so This means we are all by nature children of wrath

02:39:10

Ephesians 2 3 Because we all died in Adam, that's 1st Corinthians 15 22.

02:39:17

All right, it's real simple. Okay. All right, so What we teach is that God is sovereign

02:39:24

He knows that what Adam did Condemned everybody because Adam represented everybody we can get into why that is true, but that just work with that for now

02:39:33

So nobody's gonna come to Christ on their own because the Bible says The hearts desperately wicked deceitful.

02:39:41

No man can trust it. Jeremiah 17 9 1st Corinthians 2 14 says the natural man does not receive the things of God for their foolishness to him and he cannot accept them cannot in Romans 3 10 11 and 12, it says that no one seeks for God No one does any good in Romans 6 14 through 20 it says that people the unbelievers are slaves of sin and Ephesians 2 3 says we are by nature children of wrath

02:40:13

So if that's true, then we'd have to find verses that say things like God grants

02:40:21

So look at the mic that God grants that we have repentance which is 2nd Timothy 2 25

02:40:28

That God grants that we have faith. That's Philippians 1 29 that God grants that we come to Christ John 6 65

02:40:36

I'm quoting you what they say what these verses are our Position is that now what they're gonna then say is no one has a chance.

02:40:46

It's up to God exactly, correct because no one has the natural ability to simply believe in God because of Adam's sin and all those other scriptures that say we're a slave of sin haters of God Don't do any good don't seek for him cannot receive spiritual things

02:41:07

That's what the Bible says. So that's why the Bible says yes a grant that we have faith. Well what they say, well, that's not fair That's Romans 9 but We go through that but that's not fair.

02:41:20

They don't have a chance Well, who are you to say back to God the thing molded will not say to the molder will it?

02:41:26

Why did you make me like this? Does not the potter have a right over the same lump to make one awesome one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use

02:41:35

What if God although willing to demonstrate his wrath and do it with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction

02:41:40

And he did so that he might show the riches of his glory beforehand prepared for Upon the vessels of mercy.

02:41:47

I'm just quoting to you Romans racing Romans 9 20 to 23 a little rusty at it But I'm quoting it

02:41:54

But they don't like that because they want God to say Everyone has that everyone has to have an equal chance

02:42:01

Now, I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you a question. I'm gonna try and trick you. Okay, can I try and trick you? Okay, here goes now

02:42:08

In 2nd Peter 3 9 1st Timothy 2 4 it says God wants everyone to be saved Okay, that's what it says in those two verses you right with me

02:42:17

Yeah, now here's it just how I'm gonna try and trick you. Okay If that's true that God wants every individual to be saved would

02:42:26

God ever do anything in any way So they would not be saved What do you say

02:42:39

That would make That's make sense. That's the natural answer however

02:42:46

I'm gonna read to you what Jesus said in Romans I'm in Romans in Mark 4 10 through 12.

02:42:58

They're asking Jesus why he speaks in parables. This is what Jesus said quote Just to you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God but those who are outside get everything in parables so that While seeing they may see and not perceive and while hearing they may hear and not understand otherwise

02:43:20

They might return and be forgiven I read that the people that go right what

02:43:26

So Jesus speaks in parables, so people will not be forgiven That's what he's saying, right?

02:43:33

So, I mean, yes, he does say that I believe that when he what he's saying that So so the people that are not hearing this message those people

02:43:46

Continue to refuse to accept God in their life period He knows who they are from the beginning of time he knows who these people are and But hold on hold on You're missing that you're missing it if he wants every individual to be saved.

02:44:05

Why does he speak in parables? So they won't be saved. That's what I'm saying What this is this is what

02:44:12

I'm saying is that when we read in the scripture where it's clearly saying

02:44:17

What it's saying about God wishing that not one would perish but that all would come

02:44:23

So that's an acknowledge, right? To receive Christ, right? It does say that correct.

02:44:29

It says yeah Yeah, and there's other scriptures in the Bible that Seem to suggest and back up this first Okay so I Still believe that this is this is

02:44:44

God does want everyone to be saved God wanted God didn't want sin at all

02:44:51

But he knew in order to get what he wanted the plan of God before anything was created

02:44:57

He had a plan and he knows everything that's going to happen once he puts that plan in the motion

02:45:03

How who would know the answers to those type of questions It's like explaining the

02:45:09

Trinity. Do we really know that in that fullness of the Trinity? I'd say if you do and you're one of the three

02:45:16

You know me so these type of questions they get so deep that only

02:45:21

God could actually know all these things That's why some of the prophets would say

02:45:27

God knows You know saying when they were asked so I believe that God does want everyone to be saved

02:45:34

But he knows not everyone is going to accept what he wants in their life Then you got a problem doesn't stop putting it into motion

02:45:42

His plan and emotion. So yes Okay Hold on Okay, hold on does

02:45:57

God know what it takes to save anybody Then why doesn't he make it so there then why doesn't he do that to get everybody saved

02:46:16

Okay, here we go here we go now you're now you're You're breaking up You're breaking up You're breaking up But before you start breaking up you started leaning towards Calvinism.

02:46:33

God can do what he wants if he knows What it takes to save anybody and he chooses not to save everybody that he's making a choice not to save everybody

02:46:42

He's choosing Hey Hey, you're breaking up man, you're breaking up So Furthermore Because I they're talking about that in mr.

02:47:03

Bill once you've built once you get up and tell you what you want to say About this because you're going to first table 314 So, yeah,

02:47:21

I put it in the text on the chat, okay. Yeah, therefore I've sworn at the house of Eli I'm almost 68.

02:47:39

I'm doing two things at once Yeah, you don't have to call yourself a

02:48:03

Calvinist but God's a sovereign King that's all and that's where it is I'm not sure you're getting it

02:48:21

Anyway, anybody else have any comments or questions you want to get in on? Yeah What justice

02:49:01

Is that Unholiness, right? Yes in Yes, absolutely.

02:49:09

So then if human beings by nature Because of the fall of Adam are unholy right

02:49:22

He As he said he's equal 36 talks about right his Holy Spirit works in the heart of stone.

02:49:30

So bring it into Heart of flesh, right whereby we can actually be calm

02:49:39

Children of God Yeah, yeah Then would you also agree that that satisfies his justice in the sense of their repentance

02:49:54

But then would it also make sense that on the other side that it satisfies his justice

02:50:00

For those who do not believe right to also

02:50:06

Pay the punishment for their unbelief, but you said that equally also justifiable.

02:50:13

Yes. Yes So then the so that the whole idea of the opportunity quote -unquote is really it's really a non -issue

02:50:24

In regards to God's justice because regardless of whether or not they have an opportunity or not

02:50:30

It doesn't it doesn't change the fact that people are going to pay for What what for their unbelief regardless, right?

02:50:38

Does it make a difference? No, what

02:50:44

I'm saying is regardless of the issue is the issue of God's justice It's not about choice when you bring choice into it.

02:50:51

It's not about God's justice. That's about fairness III hate to burst a bubble but fairness is that we all go to hell for our unbelief

02:51:03

The just part is the fact that all holy God enables us or gives us away or gives us out

02:51:10

Yes Yes, absolutely Absolutely, so Where other people believe that is not your choice

02:51:23

You're gonna be Yep No, but I'm just saying just like for my point of view you understand

02:51:38

Oh, yeah, I do. But what I'm saying is the fact that the Why are you're dealing with this?

02:51:44

I'm harping on that justice parties about justice And what I'm saying is the fact that what you're really when you say justice

02:51:51

I think you're actually doing you're actually dealing with fairness Because at the end of the day justice or fairness is that we would all be going now justice is that No, hell is fair because we're all

02:52:21

No Your robot again

02:52:38

If you're gonna keep dialing with this you're gonna take those to your

02:52:43

Wi -Fi or something He's probably a barrier

02:53:03

Okay, so how about this Just curious. Why don't you guys like type in or come over the mic say what do you think of the debate?

02:53:11

Just give us your opinion your assessment. Yeah, Sam has no debate

02:53:21

I don't this was this first debate He did pretty bad

02:53:46

Okay About Calvinism, he wasn't prepared to have a debate on a specific topic

02:54:08

I think his verses were all over the place. They didn't bring the point. They they didn't even deal with the election most of them

02:54:17

Yeah, I knew it would be that way he doesn't know how to debate and cross -examination was a

02:54:24

Disaster. I knew he would not be able to answer any questions like it. It went kind of how

02:54:30

I thought it would based on the way he does his terms Yeah, just to pick up Nick was the the question you gave him.

02:54:37

I thought was a toss -up like federal headship What is it to you? Well, I didn't answer that and At that point

02:54:43

I realized this isn't a debate This is a sloppy interaction and I felt I felt bad for him at some point.

02:54:50

I guess Yeah, he didn't Keep going

02:54:59

I Wonder what they're saying in the other room though, probably claiming victory which

02:55:09

I expect You know, he's gonna

02:55:43

Give the penalty of the crime That fits the crime like which if we break long, but all therefore forgive me sin

02:55:53

And if we don't come to receive the free party Which I believe he's given every man to receive

02:56:03

Then you're gonna reap the wages of your sin Does that make sense?

02:56:09

Yeah, just real quick. I hate to do this Matt because I won't remember I bounced in there for 10 seconds

02:56:14

Yeah, basically it was sister Cherry explained to the room that Calvinists are behind not only cattle slave child slavery, but also the

02:56:25

Salem witch trials I Made good job of exposing.

02:56:35

No, that's the same. I'm sorry. I'm Sam Stratton big video

02:56:44

What's a? good The video about Kevin is burning in here and man couldn't answer that with a straight face.

02:56:52

He had to wiggle out of it Yeah Yeah Yeah, it's bad.

02:57:06

Well, I thought it was interesting I Was I actually no seriousness

02:57:13

I expected him to do better to know more and I'm not saying oh he was stupid

02:57:18

I know everything. No, I just expected more more of a challenge. I was actually kind of surprised

02:57:24

Pretty soon in the debate like wait a minute This guy doesn't know what he's doing and you know,

02:57:30

I'm trying to talk down But that's what I just know so, you know

02:57:46

Okay Really?

02:58:31

that's what I'm saying. I'm from here. It is of the gospel. You don't need to be of anybody.

02:58:38

It's just sit down. Yeah, you just need you just need to sit on his hands.

02:58:45

That way, he stopped choking but anyway, you know, I expected I honestly was like, why are you taking this debate with him?

02:58:55

Why? It was a reason. I mean, the reason was because before months and months and months ago before I knew who he was, what was going on when he said, hey, how about a debate?

02:59:07

I said, okay, let's do that and then I found out afterwards. Oh my goodness.

02:59:13

This guy doesn't know but I'd said yes, so I couldn't go back on my word. That's why okay.

02:59:20

Yeah, I was there when you got out of the table.

02:59:26

You broke because you know, I appreciate it.

02:59:32

I can't hear you. What He's just he's merciful and he's he's gracious and there's interrelationships between those three concepts within God.

03:00:03

It's hard to understand you. Sorry. I don't know where he was going with the parent.

03:00:11

Oh, okay. Yeah, but look at that part.

03:00:21

He's going to put his plan into motion. I can see God being God and there's

03:00:28

I mean, we can't explain everything about that, you know, to do that would be where you see how it all makes sense in my mind.

03:00:38

Anyway, he gave us all the choice to make and he's telling us what to do, but there's just going to be those that don't want to choose that.

03:00:52

He could have made it so that we were all certain that we were all saved, but he does not have the choice to do that.

03:00:59

He wanted to do it for his reasons, for his purposes, and we know his ways and our ways are totally, you know, we can't compare our thoughts to his thoughts and all, but he wanted the people to serve him by free choice because they chose to do that.

03:01:16

Hold on a second. You brought up Deuteronomy 30 over here if I'm not mistaken.

03:01:22

Is that correct? Deuteronomy 30 verses 11 to 20. That's right. Yes, I mean,

03:01:28

I would encourage you to go a little bit up here in the same chapter and read the first six verses or actually read all of the verses prior to that passage and you will see exactly who it is to whom that choice is offered.

03:01:44

Most importantly, Deuteronomy 30, chapter 30 says, The Lord your God will circumcise the foreskin of your heart.

03:01:51

Is that me or is that Henry?

03:01:58

You're breaking up for Sean. I heard freedom.

03:02:08

The thing that the cross moms say is they present places where there is a choice presented.

03:02:13

They say, see, there is a choice therefore man has the ability to choose one way or the other without God's help.

03:02:20

That is not the case at all. No, no, wait, wait, wait. I was talking.

03:02:27

See, you said before you lied to death, choose life. You said God just let the kind of man, he let people have choice whatever the assumption is that man ended up a self apart from a supernatural work of God's spirit can choose life.

03:02:44

That's not the case. Man always in his natural condition apart from the grace of God he chooses death.

03:02:50

So just because the choice is presented doesn't mean man has the ability in and of itself to make the right choice.

03:02:58

That's the assumption we have. That's the assumption they make. You're right, they do make that assumption.

03:03:05

Whereas I do not I believe that God created everything from the very beginning.

03:03:16

God gave us the ability to make choice to man.

03:03:22

Now had it not been for the handiwork of God to create our spirits to create the devil and his angels to create all matter and everything that we see and breathe then yes, we wouldn't have we don't have nothing to do with when you look at it like that.

03:03:40

That God created everything. So he gave he didn't give us an option to be in existence.

03:03:47

He didn't give us that option. He just created us all. Now he knew that when he created us all there would be people who did not want to serve him.

03:03:57

But how awesome God is he chooses all things honored, dishonorable things for his purposes.

03:04:06

So in the fact, this is what I was saying earlier how awesome God is that he can make us a creature that would choose not to serve him and use all that man's or that person's choices to still accomplish his purpose.

03:04:23

Does that make sense? Our salvation in a sense that he gave us life from the very conception of it all.

03:04:35

He gave us life whether we be good or we be blind. So God, yes, is going to have something to do with our salvation yes, and with our salvation in the sense that he created everybody justly and wholly he created everything and he gives us the option to pick and choose what we're going to do.

03:04:57

And the first sin wasn't Adam by the way. The first sin was Satan the sin of pride.

03:05:05

That was the first sin in the universe. And he created the enemy

03:05:10

Satan knowing fully well what he was going to do. I was kind of busy while you were saying all that but no no no

03:05:30

I am I was listening to some of it but he seemed to say exactly what

03:05:37

I said they were saying. He seemed to say God gave all people the potential to choose one way or the other and he just kind of lets them choose what they'll choose.

03:05:50

That's not the case God created everyone I agree yes and God created one wholly and justly he created everyone

03:06:02

God didn't make Satan turn on him. God don't make people do what they're doing wait when did

03:06:09

I say he made no no no I'm saying I ain't saying you said he was that I'm saying that God gave everybody a choice to do what's right or to do what's wrong we got a choice we can't blame

03:06:24

God for our choices let me ask you this Nick I want to clarify something you said that he made all people holy and righteous no

03:06:35

I'm clarifying he didn't say that I never said that I'm saying

03:06:45

God is holy and righteous and sovereign graceful merciful God don't make mistakes well no one's doubting that God made a mistake well no

03:06:58

I don't think Adam and Eve were created righteous correct yes after Adam and Eve sin are people now that are born after them are they born sinners or are they born kind of neutral like Adam and Eve hey guys

03:07:18

I'm going to get going people are just rambling now so no big deal so you want to end it end the stream