Debate: Matt Slick vs Sam Lattimore

All right, so This is supposed to be the debate on Unconditional election and everything supposed to have been arranged and agreed on and Nobody's showing up so far. Now I will say that there does seem to be or have been just a bit of confusion About a couple of things in the last hour So I'll give the opponent the benefit of the doubt and Let's see what click this where to go.

There we go the benefit of the doubt and Just say that yeah, there's a mix-up. So what I since I said it was hot started six and that's what was agreed upon Then what I'll I'm looking at some notes. I'm doing several things while I'm doing this then I'll just hang out here.

I thought I that's why I started it right now is so that people could pay attention I'm going to get the the links and stuff like that for rumble so that I can Get in there And see any Texts that might be coming through as people work in there.

Okay, so Here we go. I'm supposed to be in that room there I mean funny, but So anyway, this is what I'm gonna do I see a I don't know whether having problems but we're gonna find this out So I'm going in I'm going in and Yeah, I'm just gonna Do this.

So I'm in this room. Apparently it's on clubhouse and I I'm in there. They can See me. I'm not listening to them. I'm not gonna watch them And the reason is is because this this group of people is pretty vile pretty vitriolic pretty condemning and so We'll see what happens.

I'm in they can see me in this is the link. It's supposed to be for him to come in right here. I don't see him in yet. So we'll see now. There's supposed to be An atheist moderator, which is fine. And if he doesn't show up the atheist moderator, that's fine I'm sure we're mature enough the opponent tonight to be able to have a conversation on our own without having to worry about stuff but it should be interesting to see what's going to happen and I'm just hoping that things work out here pretty quickly.

Pretty well, I'm stalling right now because I'm waiting for them to get in here. Hey Matt looking forward to our debate next week on the gospel truth. Hopefully You prepared no, I haven't prepared yet.

Jay. I'm get another debate coming up I think that's the one does the Old Testament imply the the Trinity and So, you know, we'll just see that's what I think that debate is supposed to be. So The topic tonight is supposed to I said I should have fixed that I'm gonna do this Let me do this now.

What if I can go in and edit?

The.

The stuff I Don't know if I can or not. Don't know I don't take a chance because if I edit the live stream to quit the debate title up there I don't know. So that's that now. Charlie's in. He won't be participating won't be he won't be I can see him in the backstage.

He won't be moderating or doing anything. So he's just in some people can do that. His name is Jacob.

I.

Feeling it's me. Okay, Jay then. Hey, you know for the debate next week. I think it's next week. Why don't you if you would be so kind just email me what your position is. So I know what it is that you're saying.

You're not just it's not in the Bible. You know, what are you? Are you a oneness? Are you a Unitarian? What are you and? So that I know because I don't have to waste time during a debate to figure out what your position is.

I should know what your position is just a little degree. I mean if someone would say to me, what's your position? I'm a Trinitarian Hypostatic Union reformed in my theology on millennial. I say this about this bubble block.

That's it. So it'd be nice if you could send that to info at calm org. I'll put that in here right now info at calm org and Your rap alias, okay, I don't know I gotta make sure well. What we're gonna probably do at the end of this year is and starting in January.

Anybody wants to debate me? We're gonna have to have arrangements ahead of time. There's gonna be a requirement for them. They're gonna have to provide the real name a photo. Things like that what qualifies them?

Etc, you know and just basic stuff. Want to be the position then they have to tell me what their position is specifically so that I know what what's going on. Matt slicks the humblest been in the house.

They just insulted you. Charlie says I'm more humble than you. So He's nodding which makes it more humble than me. So there's that All right, so I'm in that cross-cut thing, but I'm not listening. I'm not gonna be in there.

I haven't turned down. I don't have their volume. I'm not gonna listen to them. I don't care to I don't trust them and Just waiting for them to come in there in the room here. I'm waiting. I'm waiting.

Okay.

So.

The email has been sent. I'm gonna type this in. Dave Kimball Sent the email with all the link info. I'm waiting. So there we go without shopping today. With the wife. I had a nice Thanksgiving yesterday.

And so I didn't get much time to prep for this. I should prep more but you know. It's alright. We'll see. And let's see. What's this. Get this over here get that right there and. Yeah, you know lots of stuff here.

But I'm gonna just say I'm waiting. Check this out. Well, I don't know. I don't know. We'll see. We'll see. Let's just say.

This.

I'll tell you the reason I'm doing the debate. The only reason is is because.

I.

Said I would and I said this months and months ago and. Then things happened and I had to go to Europe and other stuff and prep for you know. And it just didn't work out but I said I would. That's my word.

So that's why I'm following through saying yes and this. If it doesn't happen now, it's not gonna happen because I'm not gonna waste my time and.

I've.

Listened to these guys in their room on clubhouse Just speak evil about Calvinists and Calvinism and I mean evil. I mean evil wishing for our damnation. Calling it of the devil. Just vitriolic and misrepresenting us.

So I don't have much faith in their objectivity. I don't have much faith in their ability to Present let's just say To present Stuff let's just say oh, I guess I have to do this. That's right. I forgot I have to Unmute in the room.

So that's what the case is. All right, folks. So like I said, I'm still waiting for them to show up and we'll see if they do he does or does not. And this is their only chance. So that's up. And we'll give it a while and if they don't show up I don't know ten minutes by the bottom of the hour.

Then we'll just call it and then I'll just do a teaching on on this stuff and do a Q &A so we'll see what happens and So my wife is asleep. She had a rough day today. We had to go shopping and looking for a new chair for her that she can Work in and do but do better and it just took a lot out of her first to do that.

So she's asleep, so if he gets up in the middle of something and I will hand this to Sam he said. The opponent he has said that if something like that happens, that's fine. And that's like he's gracious that way and I appreciate them.

But it's just a fact that my wife has a lot of stuff. Here. He is. I hear adding him. All right. I see you. Do you hear me? I can hear you. All right. I hear you too, then.

I.

Can see you clearly. This is a very good system. It works really well. I'm gonna go down. I'm gonna keep talking to you. You keep talking. I'm gonna go get some water. Okay, and I can hear you while I'm walking.

Alright, so. Is the moderator gonna come in. If not, I'm sure you and I can handle it. Yeah, I.

Don't see him. I have instructed I Have two people on stage to monitor the chat so that Nobody does anything Disrespectful in the chat towards yourself for me.

And.

That's they won't be in the conversation and all they won't come off my pictures monitoring the check.

Yes, I hear you.

Open okay.

There and You can hear me and see me. Clearly I can I can definitely hear you.

Good. All right.

Mary.

Do me a favor come close my door.

So generally speaking the affirmative position goes first in debates. I'm not don't if you're aware of that.

To me, okay.

Since I affirm unconditional election.

Okay. Let me do an introduction on my side. Hey, I'm pastor Sam. Welcome to you got cut across mob. We are glad to Be here one more time again one more prayer time.

One more.

Prayer channel, let's pray father. We love you and we pray to Magnify you for your greatness and for your holy name. There is none like you. We ask father that you let the words of our mouth and the meditation of our heart Be acceptable in your sight.

Oh God Give us listening ears. And as you have promised Give your wisdom. These things we ask according to the privilege and authority Given to us by life in your son Jesus. Thank you God.

So.

Now I'm having a little trouble hearing you and you guys yeah, you're a little muffled to me. Yes, I can. Yeah, I hear you. But just in case I say I don't hear you or I miss something. It's because I do have hearing loss.

Okay hearing aids in so just let you know. No, that's fine, that's fine, you know, I've been praying for you. You know, so and also thank you for praying for my wife. I do appreciate.

We when we heard it we stopped to pause to to make sure that we answered Yeah, she's good. Your heartfelt desire for your wife to be healed.

She's got some serious issues. Yes, sir. So those things those things are more important than.

Their disagreements.

Agree.

So you said you wanted a 20-minute opening. Is that correct? Yeah, that's right. I mean How about up to 20. Mine won't be 20 minutes. Don't need it so it's up, okay. So how long do you think you're gonna need oh.

I'm probably gonna do about 15 or something somewhere around in there. All right. So then.

What we'll do is Up to 20 opening right. And then you want to do what. 10 Minute cross or response you would do response. I don't do. This is all new. So yeah. Do a seven minute response.

Do you wanna Have your intro and then I do a response or.

Generally how it works.

General.

Generally how it works is the affirmative goes first. I affirm unconditional election. So for as long as I need I won't up to 20 minutes. You won't need that long and then I'm done and then you you have up to 20 minutes to give your your opening then I can respond to your opening and you can then respond to my opening and then we can just depends we could do a Cross examination of questions and the conclusion sound good.

Yeah, that's fine, okay, so. Okay, so 20 minute opening it. Sorry. We didn't have this all worked out folks up. How about up to 10 minute response? Okay, that good. That's all right up to and then let's do a half hour 20 20 40 50 60.

Let's do a half 30 minute Q &A. We'll do fit. How about 15? 15 minutes I ask questions 15 minutes us questions. You want to do that? That's fine. Okay, and then closing. Okay. Okay. All right. Okay. I'm gonna offer you something else, too.

Okay, after we're done if you want we can stay on and just have an open discussion on Calvinism.

Okay.

Well, we're doing a very specific topic right now, which is what we agreed to. Such. Let's do that. Your microphones in front of your face. So it's hard to see you. No, it's good and I do apologize. I'm not playing a game.

I do have a hearing loss. I can show you my ear hearing aids. Okay. And this is why I have this on. It's easier. I can turn it up. So I will not be playing any game with you unless it's obvious. I'm talking around.

Yeah, I don't do that with people. You know, I don't understand if I say look, I don't understand. I'm sorry. Repeat it. All right.

My wife is irritated with that. Let me remind everybody in the cross mob if you have anybody block. Unblock, please. Allow everybody that wants to come in and be a part of this.

Experience.

So, how about if we do this. You know your guy I didn't come in Charlie down here. We could ask him just to to type in. If you if you see the screen you can see can type in how much time we have left.

Like or if you want or I can just do my phone and say hey five minutes I go like this means five and then three, you know.

Well, one of the guy big or dog I can keep time.

When you're.

Yeah, I'm gonna be using this track. I'm gonna be using my phone as well. And if we mess up a little I don't care, you know, yeah.

Okay, okay, are you able to keep time he said. He can't. Oh he can't. Okay. So well.

Yeah, just look at your clock and about 20 minutes that's all.

Okay, sounds good.

Okay.

So I'm ready and sorry for the late start everybody. These are the details you should had worked out already, but that's alright. And I provided on karm Under karm .org forward slash debates. I've provided the all the information you need for Facebook.

I think it was supposed to put on X Facebook YouTube and rumble so you can check it out. All right. So I'm ready when you are I'm ready. Let's go. I'm gonna hit start. I'm gonna pray. I always do when I preach and teach.

So, here we go Lord Jesus. I just want to ask that you would bless this time and I ask Lord for Wisdom and mercy upon all of us that those who would hear but hear your voice and not ours. But that you would be glorified Lord in this discussion in this time this disagreement even that by your grace that you would just Open the hearts and minds of people to understand the truth that you would receive the greatest of glory Lord.

Let me be instruments in your hand for your purpose. We ask this Jesus your precious name.

Amen.

All right.

So.

So first of all, thank you all for coming and watching the debate. This is a topic that it's important. As you know, maybe you know, I'm a five-point Calvinist and I don't hold to everything John Calvin said or Augustine or Burkhoff or whoever.

I've been defending Calvinism for a long time and I have a Masters of Divinity from Westminster Theological Seminary Where it's a Calvinist seminary. So I've really you know, I had a lot of experience studying it on an official level and Defending it for about 33 years almost 34 years.

But thank you for for coming. I suspected a lot of you had been to my website calm org C a r m dot o RG and Just hope you would check it out. We got a lot of stuff. We're working on and It is growing.

All right now our debate is on whether or not God's election of People for salvation is conditional or Unconditional. So does God choose people for salvation based on something good and meritorious in them?

That'd be conditional salvation or election or not. Now if he does then That's what we call conditional salvation conditional election. Unconditional election is the teaching that God does not look into the future Does not consider what we will be and how good we will be and then make a decision to choose us for salvation on that.

So this debate is not about total depravity. It's not about libertarian or compatibilist freewill. It's not about irresistible grace. It's not about perseverance. It's not about deliberate atonement. It's about whether or not God elects people for salvation Based on something only within himself or something external to himself.

Namely the good and wise choices of people. Now if pastor Sam is debating me Then he needs to do of my position not John Calvin not Augustine not Burkhardt. Not anybody else not some Gnostic theory not so many things.

But what I teach I don't believe because otherwise he's debating somebody else and not me. So if he quotes someone else's proof of what all Calvinist believe then he's not debating me. He's debating them and they aren't here to defend themselves and give account for any accusations or quotes or context or anything.

Instead the debate is about what the scriptures teach now I believe that they teach that God elects people for salvation and he does so Unconditionally not based on any foreseen goodness in them. His election is before the foundation of the world as Ephesians 1 for Clearly states and it does not occur after Someone believes as some people hold of that position and I'm not sure what pastor Sam's position really is have to find out.

So.

God's choice of who to elect for salvation does not depend on any foreseen good in us. It depends on the good in God. God's election does not depend on man's goodness. It depends on God's goodness. This is important now generally.

Conditional election advocates claim that God elects people for salvation based on foreseen faith. I don't know if that's pastor Sam's position, but I don't know what it is. I've asked for a definition.

I don't know if that Definition came through but because Dave was doing the emails and stuff while I was doing a bunch of other stuff. So I assume that that is Sam's position and if it's not then I'm perfectly open to being corrected and I'll adjust my arguments After that, so Like I said, I haven't heard his position exactly.

I assume it is foreseen faith that God for knowledge Foreseen the secret people will do and chooses them for salvation based on that. That's my assumption and if it's incorrect, no disrespect meant. I'm not trying to misrepresent him.

That's just what I'm assuming because I haven't heard his position even though I did ask for it. And that's a he didn't want willing to give it. I'm just saying it was an email confusion, that's all I'm saying.

So.

The question should we have to deal with or whether or not God looks into the future to see what people will do if that's the case and it means God learns and If God is learning then that means that God's choices depend on man's choices.

This is humanism. It's humanist philosophy made to sound like biblical truth. I hope that's not what he's teaching. I don't know yet. So philosophy is something the critics of reformed theology often raise against the doctrines of grace.

They often tell us to not use philosophy yet. They do that very thing when they impose their humanist philosophy upon the scriptures and presuppose That God looks into the future to see who will do what and that God elects based on the good and wise choices of people.

Again that's humanism and I've taught on humanism. That is humanism. So, let me expand. It's a philosophical view that uses mankind as a standard. That's what humanism is and I have a phrase Christian humanism.

Which I've been talking about how it's creeping into the Christian Church a lot. But in this case, it's a humanist philosophy to say that God looks into the future to see what's which centers will do the correct Good and wise thing and then God reacts and he picks them and he saves them so after all.

Isn't believing in God a good thing isn't choosing to believe in God a good thing. Isn't it wise to pick Jesus? Isn't it wise? I would say it is. So isn't it also a humble thing to say that you're a sinner in the need of a Savior?

Well being humble about yourself and recognizing your need for Jesus. That's a good and wise thing. It is. I'm not mocking it.

It's good.

But the problem here is that it means that God's choices depends on man's goodness. If man if it means that God reacts to the good and wise choices of mankind so that you can then save them. That's against Scripture.

Now check this out James 2 2 through 4 for if a man comes into your assembly with a Gold ring and dressed in fine clothes and there's comes also a poor man in dirty clothes and you pay special attention To the one who's wearing the fine clothes and say you sit here in a good place.

And you say to the poor man you stand over there or sit by my footstool. Have you not made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil motives? Now this isn't addressing exactly the issue of conditional election, okay?

What is addressing is the idea of showing favoritism based on equality characteristic possession of somebody else. God says don't do that. God doesn't look at what you have to Decide to save you. This says you are not to show any favoritism to anybody based on anything.

That's good about them. Don't show favoritism. So God does not look into the future. To see what events will occur. If that's the case then that means he's learning. Now we can get into temporal priority logical priority and some conditions here.

We can talk logic about this stuff. I don't know if he's willing to do that. But I hope he's not teaching that God knows what they're gonna do and looks into the future to see what's gonna happen. Or is it that all of knowledge is concomitantly?

Instantaneous and ubiquitous which out without any increase of knowledge. We could discuss that and why that would necessarily be the case. Because it would have to be by God's work and not by man's choices.

And.

But nevertheless God's choices are not dependent upon man's choices. Man is not the center of salvation. Via the wise and good exercise of his own will by which he wisely and humbly and properly and with goodness chooses to believe in Christ this humanist philosophy needs to be rejected and People need to submit to the sovereignty and goodness of God and not elevate their own sovereignty in their own goodness.

I see this in the cults. I'm not calling the cultist. I see it in the cults. Okay, I see it in in Roman Catholicism. I see it in Eastern Orthodoxy. I see it a lot in our and Arminian churches where a lot of people say that they were wise enough to pick God and That they maintain their position by their goodness their their continued faithfulness to God.

And then you know. Hey yourself in the back for that good for you.

So.

The Bible says that God is the author and finisher of our faith. He's the one who grants that we have faith flippings 129. He grants that we come to Christ. John 6 65. He grants that we have repentance.

2nd Timothy 2 25. He is the one who causes us to be born again. That's 1st Peter 1 3 and we're born again. Not of our own will. John 1 13 and as many as had been appointed by God to eternal life believed.

That's Acts 13 48. Now when we go to Ephesians 1 4 Says this. Just as he chose us in him. That's in Christ federal headship before the foundation of the world that we would be holy and blameless before him in love.

He predestined us to adoption as some through Jesus Christ to himself according to the kind intention of his will. Notice man's will isn't here man's choices are not here. Don't insert. I hope nobody here does.

Well, God just knows what you're gonna do. That's why he picks a humanist philosophy read into the text if you say that nothing in here talks about human choices. It's God choosing us in Christ. According to the kind intention of his will that's what he says.

2nd Thessalonians 2 13 says but we should always give thanks to God for you brethren. Beloved by the Lord because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation. Through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

This is God's work. He chose again in 2nd Thessalonians 2 13 nothing There is said about God considering our future freewill choices and abilities and goodness and whatever. No, it's God's choice. You may not like it.

But that's what these scriptures are teaching. From these two verses we can see that the active agent of election and choosing is God. Nothing is mentioned in either verse about God looking into the future.

To see who will choose him through his foreknowledge, which he can define and we can discuss. Well, that might be defined as different ways of defining it depending on people what their view is we can get into that.

But he doesn't do that. He doesn't look to see what will happen or just know what will happen in the future instantly and Eternally and then decides based on that knowledge. That would mean then that he's choosing them for salvation based on good quality in them.

On a good quality in them. That's humanism. You see humanism would teach that mankind Is capable mankind's a good standard mankind. Humanist philosophy. I chose God. I was wise enough. I was humble enough to pick him, but my neighbor did not.

So I'm the one responsible for my salvation. That's humanist philosophy. So if God's election of people is based on a condition or quality or decision or action in them. Then there needs to be some scriptures that show that there needs to be something a scripture that says God looks and considers your choices and that's why he picks you.

Something to that effect doesn't have those exact words, but if that's his position or that's the counter position. Logically as much must be what it is because the position that I'm holding to is that God does not look into the future does Not consider freewill choices of people in different conditions.

Molinistic theology is what that is in order to then make choices based on these these conditions. Likewise if God's election of people is not based on any good condition or quality In them and them there needs to be scripture that supports the idea and I've already done that I've already shown to.

I didn't go into a lot and the idea is not the machine gun 80 versus just that's not right. You know if you machine gun 100 versus the opponent can't respond to all of them. It's just not fair. And I want to be fair on this.

Okay, so here's two main ones we can look at. You know Ephesians 1 4 and 5 and then 2nd Thessalonians 2 13. Now my opponent needs to establish his position from scripture. You will need to support the idea that God chooses people based on a foreseen quality of goodness in them.

We have to ask is it true that God's choice to save people depends on man's good and wise choices. Is it true that God looks into the future to learn what good and wise choices people will make so that God then chooses to?

Save them. Is that what? The other position is if so, that's humanism and it is it's not name-calling. That's what it is. I've spoken about this in my radio show. I've written about it working on stuff about it Behind-the-scenes of other articles about Christian humanism.

So God is not based as eternal election upon the wisdom and goodness of people who would then in their own ability. And in their own humility and the goodness of their own hearts accept Christ by faith thereby enabling God to elect them for salvation.

Nor does he elect them after they believe because Ephesians 1 4 says before the foundation of the world they were elected. Their humanist philosophy must be rejected because it's man-centered and it always leads to further error.

And it also leads to hatred towards other positions hatred. Not just disagreement but hatred and condemnation when people elevate humanist philosophies. What they often do is become judges of other people's hearts and minds and they condemn them.

This is a result of humanist thought and humanism in their own hearts and minds. It's essentially a reflection of the ancient echo. Sounding down through the history. Into the hearts of men you will be like God knowing good and evil.

God alone is non-contingent. His existence knowledge and wisdom are not dependent upon anything outside of himself, but in the humanist Philosophy of conditional election God's choices are contingent upon human choices.

That's the other position. That's I understand it. I'm certainly not trying to misrepresent it. But that's what I understand it to be in my 44 years of discussing various topics. They are contingent on the good humble and wise decisions that some people make and others do not.

That's humanist philosophy again. That means that God reacts and saves them because he sees how good they're going to be. And how wise you're going to be when they exercise their faith and choose Jesus and so God saves them.

God elects them. This humanist philosophy is not biblical. I've been well aware of it for a long time and refuting it and Speaking against humanist philosophy in Christian circles for a long time. It's prevalent unfortunately in the church today.

Because they're not bowing to God's sovereignty who works all things after the council of his will Ephesians 1 11. Instead they're exalting their own wisdom humility and goodness as a deciding factor in God's choice to save us.

I reject Such humanist philosophy and I stick with the scriptures that says that God is a sovereign king and he chose us Before the foundation of the world according to the kind intention of his will.

He didn't see how good we're going to be in order to choose us. He didn't react to our goodness and then say well done. I'll save you because of how good you are you chose wisely know. That I reject God's a sovereign king.

I'm done. Hey, I'm pastor Sam. Welcome to you. Got cut the cross mom, man. I'm so glad to be here. To be a part of this.

I think you have extra four minutes, but you're receiving that time to.

Pastor Sam. Yeah. Can you hear me? Can y 'all hear me?

Yes, we hear you. You're good, okay.

My mic wasn't on.

Okay.

Thank you. Hey, I'm pastor Sam. Welcome to you got cut the cross mom. They do my intro here again. I'm so glad to To be here and to be a part of this Black Friday event. Let me tell you something. Don't give people your mind.

I promise you if you give people your mind, they will ruin it for you. Especially when it comes to the Bible. Nobody has given that permission to tell us what God did in time other than what the Bible says now.

He made one mistake. Yeah, he made a mistake. Calvin. You didn't write Calvinism. Messick didn't write Calvinism. Y 'all. He's not the anchor. Right. He's not the anchor of Calvinism. He don't get to tell me.

Yeah. Yeah, you don't get to tell me what to say. Who who dimension?

That's not.

That's not up to him that this is. Calvinism is an ancient heresy and it has to be approached from that standpoint. Oh, I might do I have an echo. What what's going on? In my.

Can you sound good to me? You sound good.

But every time I say something you you saying something I was.

No, I'm muted. I'm muted and I'm just repeating what you say in my speech program so I can go.

Your.

Your your clubhouse.

Microphone. Oh, that's right. I apologize. You know, I forgot about that. My apologies. I did forget about that. That's right. That's okay. Okay, so.

So I'm not going to be following Matt slicks. Slick little thing that he did. I'm gonna talk about Calvinism all day. How I want to and who I want to involve me. Okay. So let me begin by acknowledging, you know.

John.

Augustine may have had a a Sincere desire to honor God, but he just dishonored God. Tonight I would demonstrate how Calvinist unconditionally election fundamentally Misrepresents the character of God as revealing the scripture.

I'm here before you. Let him Accuracy, look I want him to be on the full screen. Letter to the Galatians use a specific Greek word When warning about Who would pervert the gospel? This word literally means to turn about to transform.

Something completely different it combines the word meta meaning change to Styrofoam mean to turn. Indicating a complete reversal and fundamental transformation of something from its original form. In Galatians.

Paul meticulously lays out the foundation of salvation. He traces it back to Abraham establishing that God's method of justification through faith Was preached even before the law. This faith principle Works.

This faith principle not only works. Not law not on works not on the law not on election is how Abraham was justified. Paul explicitly states this same faith principle and continues through to Christ to the Gentiles.

When we examine Calvinism Soteriology or of salvation we find it begins not with this Abrahamic faith principle But with unconditional election as its foundation. This represents precisely what the Greek word.