Do Self-Deleted People Go to Hell?

Suicide as Self-Murder and an Insult to God

You are looking at your maker and you're spitting in his face and you're despising his good gifts that he's given him. You're saying that functionally that you are unwilling to trust him, right, and unwilling to accept whatever provenance that he has given you and you're saying that you are not enough for me.

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People are tired of hearing nothing but doom and despair on the radio.

The message of Christianity is that salvation is found in Christ alone and any who reject Christ therefore forfeit any hope of salvation, any hope of heaven.

The issue is that humanity is in sin and the wrath of Almighty God is hanging over our head. They will hear his words, they will not act upon them, and when the floods of divine judgment, when the fires of wrath come, they will be consumed and they will perish.

God wrapped himself in flesh, condescended and became a man, died on the cross for sin, was resurrected on the third day, has ascended to the right hand of the Father where he sits now to make intercession for us.

Jesus is saying there is a group of people who will hear his words, they will act upon them, and when the floods of divine judgment come in that final day, their house will stand.

Why the Episode Uses the Phrase “Self-Deleted”

Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask. We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrigg and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll answer the age-old question, do self-deleted people go to hell?

Now, before we start this episode, I've just got to level with you guys here a little bit who are listening. That sounds like a strange way to ask a title question. It is a strange way. Well, that's what I was about to say.

If you read the title question and thought, that's weird, why did they word this the way that they did? Well, you're completely justified in thinking that. This is frankly a stupid way to have to ask this question.

However, we're asking it this way because once we upload this to the various platforms that we use, it's inevitably going to get taken down if we had suicide in the title. We use the word self-deleted, and YouTube's attempts to try and do whatever it is they're trying to protect people from, they've forced us into using what I think is just an objectively worse way to describe it, honestly, by saying self-deleted.

It sounds so much more disrespectful. It sounds like you're making a whole joke out of this entire topic when it's actually a pretty serious topic to be talking about. We can't even use the word that most accurately describes what's going on here without threat of just having this removed automatically.

If it gets removed, there's no way we're going to be able to appeal it. If you thought this was a weird title, that's why we're having to word it this way. It's just stupid that we're having to do it this way, but it is what it is.

We still wanted to talk about the topic because for some people it's a pretty complicated issue, and obviously there's a lot of baggage that comes with a topic like this. We still wanted to talk about it and give you guys a biblical perspective on things.

Tim, why don't we just go ahead and you talk a little bit about what some more of the motivation behind this episode is.

I think it's an important topic to talk about. A lot of people really do think very sentimentally about this topic in general. It's one of those topics where people really have been trained to view people who commit suicide as victims.

In that kind of framework, there's a lot of irrational expectations that you're supposed to have in these kind of scenarios, meaning what you're supposed to do when you view someone as a victim. We live in a victim society right now, so when you view someone as a victim, then the rules are you can't shame them, and you can't blame them, and you have to support them, and you can't say anything that would disparage them or say anything negative about them.

Basically, you're in this kind of situation where you have to take their side, you have to believe them, you have to support them. But then the problem with suicide is that when you're talking about suicide, the victim is the perpetrator.

Not only are they the perpetrator, but then there's a lot of other people who are victimized by their actions as well. So there's few more selfish and cowardly things that a person can do than to commit suicide.

But then if I say that, if I say that there's few things that are more selfish and cowardly than the act of killing yourself, then all of a sudden what I've done is I've run afly of these expectations that everyone has for me, meaning I just did something fundamentally immoral in the minds of many people because I dared to criticize the act.

But then the problem is that if you don't criticize the act, then you're in this awkward situation where you're actually encouraging people to kill themselves, right? So if you have to praise this act and celebrate this act, what's happening is, particularly as I've talked to people on the internet about this, it's almost like you have to turn the suicide, like the person who committed suicide, into a triumphant hero and like the triumphant hero of their story and consider it like a triumphant act of bravery where you fundamentally have done something wrong.

And so this is one of those topics where you can't talk about without running afoul of the expectations of the individuals who are so sensitive, like they're so sensitive and they have no concept of what it means to actually love people that in their sick and twisted world, love ultimately means praising a person for ending their life.

So in that way, love is like, in order to show love, you have to encourage someone in the act of killing themselves.

And so whatever love is, it's not that. Does that make sense? Yeah, I guess I've had a little bit different experience in terms of seeing people deal with this kind of thing where it's not necessarily like, um, you know, like a praising the suicide in and of itself, but rather it's, it's more of this weird sort of like you can't, and this, this sort of goes on into pretty much any sort of like funeral type situation, no matter how the person actually died.

But you really can't say anything bad about them no matter what. Um, uh, I mean, maybe, you know, like maybe for Hitler or something you can, but then just for normal everyday people, even if they were terrible in their life, you have to praise.

The scoundrel no matter how bad he was and you have to preach him into heaven. And there's plenty of, you know, pastors who are functionally turned into liars at the funeral where they basically have to, you know, for the sake of love for everyone else, they basically have to turn this, um, you know, turn the, you know, worst scoundrels imaginable into saints.

Right.

Yeah. And so, so I've had that sort of, I've had a little bit more of that kind of experience when it comes to suicide and, and not necessarily like, um, like I said, they're not, they're not really praising what, what that person has done, but rather just trying to, you know, think the best of that person, um, like in light of everything that's happened.

But I think in my mind where, um, you know, I think, I think it's good to honor the dead, but then it gets really strange when you start thinking about like what, you know, motivations for things. And, and, you know, it seems like, like a pretty, um, like a pretty selfish thing to do.

The Victim Narrative, Mental Illness, and Suicide

Yeah. Yeah. So what's happening though, is like, there is this demand that you honor the dead and you don't speak ill of the dead. And so, and then there's this demand that you like, um, turn them into heroes and recognize them and everything else.

So there's that, but then what's happening with suicide is there's another dynamic that's happening and, you know, and it may be that, um, like this dynamic is not intuitive to biblically minded people at all.

But, you know, as I've interacted with people on the internet about this and just people in real life about it, like the problem is that suicide is viewed as, um, we're living in, um, like a society right now that is essentially dominated by a materialistic worldview.

Right. So what's happening is when you talk about this subject instantaneously, you're having a, um, you're basically having a psychological disorder discussion without knowing it. Okay. Okay. So, so what's happening is like, that's, that's what you're having.

And so, um, in the minds of many people, that person who killed himself or that person who is considering killing themselves, they're viewed through the language of victimization from the start. Okay.

Sure. So they're viewed as like the only way they would get there, like this is in people's minds. The only way they get there is if they are suffering from a mental disorder. Okay. And so if they're suffering from a mental disorder, like they have depression, right?

So maybe like just use depression as an example, that they're suffering from depression and the minds of many people, what's happened is they view that as a medical illness that this person has suffered from.

Okay. So it's a medical illness. So like they experienced something sad. And in their minds, what's happened is that this person who has experienced some trauma in their life, um, at like, they're now a victim, uh, like they're viewed in victim language, like as if they're suffering from cancer.

And what you have to do in that, in that framework is you have to basically treat them as if they're a cancer patient. Okay. So, so you're viewing the suicidal person as suffering from depression. They're suffering from an illness.

I can, that's what people think in their minds. They immediately go there and you don't go there because you don't think this way, but they go there. They think they're suffering from a mental disorder.

Okay. They're suffering from an illness. And what that means is their brain is fundamentally broken, right? So their brain is fundamentally broken and there's no way out. No, there's no way out. So they're trapped, you know, they're trapped in a biological prison of pain that is totally unescapable.

And you have to view them as if they're like their, their body, their biology is like beating them down as if they were like a poor, you know, five-year-old Siberian orphan or something like that, um, who is, you know, being abused by, you know, the, the, uh, monstrous orphanage workers in that way.

So they're like, you have to view them like that. Like they're deprived of parents. Like they're a child, like this is an adult. You have to view as if they're a child deprived of parents who are being physically abused by like they're, you know, unloving overlords in that way.

So, but then like what's happening is their brain is doing that. That's what they think. Okay. So their brain is like the, you know, the, um, the hateful, you know, orphanage workers there who are abusing this poor soul and they're trapped in this like endless suffering.

Right. And then what you have to do like in their mind, like the only way out for them is encouragement. You see what I'm saying? Like that's the only way out. So the only like, so you're this person who is trapped in this biological prison, like that is your mind.

And then you're trapped there. And the only way out is to encourage this person. Okay.

That's really interesting because, you know, for me, I've all, I've only ever heard people say, you know, basically like treating suicide a lot more like probably what at least, you know, hopefully people were saying five or 10 years ago, which was, you know, Hey, like, like you're making a long-term decision over a short-term problem or anything to, you know, that's trying to, you know, basically walk the person back, the person off the ledge.

Right. But then you're saying, you're saying that you've seen people lean much more into the, well, yeah. What, what other option do they have?

Right. Well, that's, I mean, that's essentially, um, um, so I did a poll. I started a poll on Twitter and I was basically saying, um, do, you know, you can word it however you want, but like do like essentially the point of the poll is just to say, do suicides go to hell essentially.

So do people who commit suicide, do they go to hell? And like in the minds of many people, like, you know, like what, what had happened was I, I'm doing this poll on, do suicides go to hell? And everyone is basically taking a posture that says that like, you need to think the best, right.

Everyone's posture is basically, you need to think the best and you need to, like, you don't know. And you know, yeah. You know, good Christians get depressed, right? Good Christians get depressed. Everyone gets depressed, you know, and then, you know, Elijah got depressed and all that.

Right.

And so everyone gets depressed. And so like, like the vast majority of darkness or whatever. Yeah. Dark night of soul. Yeah. All that.

Soul. Yeah. Yeah. So then, um, like the issue is like instantaneously people are thinking in terms of mental disorders and depression and everything else. And so like, there's a demand to say, Hey, we're saved by grace through faith.

None of works. And so, you know, we're not Roman Catholics. And so what you have to do is you have to like say, yes, they do go to heaven because you don't want to say something mean, but then, you know, we had, um, there was a, there was a young man on there who basically says that he tried to, he's thought about killing himself and tried to kill himself.

And, you know, he struggled through this issue. Like if he did it, would he go to heaven or not? And, you know, he's doing that in the context of a poll where, you know, 70 of the people are saying, yes, you can go to heaven and still kill yourself.

Right. And so in that kind of context, then I'm basically starting to say, Hey, like, um, you know, you need to warn people about this. Right. Yeah. You need to, you need to warn people. Like you, like, if you're considering killing yourself, you ought to have no assurance of your salvation in that moment.

Right. And now the moment I start doing that, then you have people like, and I'm doing that because I'm trying to save a kid's life. Right. Yeah. But then you have people who are like to basically discourage him from going down that road and warn him as the Bible warns him, you know, with all the warning passages there are in the Bible about that kind of thing.

But then immediately people are just like, um, like they think what's happening when you're trying to warn someone against the danger of killing yourself. Like they think that like what's happening is fundamentally monstrous.

It must be stopped. Right. And you like, you must like, the only answer for this person is to encourage them in that moment. And if you take away their assurance of salvation, like then in that moment, what you're doing is you're taking away their only hope.

And what you have to do is encourage them. And it's like, no, like you guys have got the situation exactly opposite. What you don't want to do with a suicidal person is to tell them, like, don't worry.

God loves you. And regardless of whatever you do, you'll end up in heaven. Like that's exactly the wrong counsel. Okay. That's exactly the wrong counsel that you need to be giving in that moment. And the kind of counsel that you need to be giving in that moment is just to say like, um, repent.

Right. And, um, you know, the Bible has warnings against murder and everything else. But what I'm trying to say though, is like, like instantaneously, what you have is you have a lot of people who are so committed to the idea of this is a victim.

Like a suicide person is a victim of a mental disorder. They must be encouraged. Like the only answer out is to encourage them and basically, um, not shame them in any way. Um, and what you end up having is a situation where functionally a bunch of people are coming along and trying to basically tell a suicidal person that they should have absolute confidence that they can go through with their act and end up in heaven.

And you end up, I mean, basically what you're doing is actually encouraging them to kill himself.

What Scripture Says About Murder, Suicide, and Assurance

Man. Uh, that's a lot. Um, why don't we, okay, so why don't we start with the, the actual title question? You know, it sounds, so you're saying, um, so you're saying, you know, with the suicidal person, you don't tell them that, you know, like, Hey, yeah, you're definitely going to go to heaven if you go through with this.

Right. That's the worst. Yeah. That's the worst possible thing you could say. I mean, that seems like probably not the thing. It seems like if anything, you, you would want to be talking on back to like, like, you know, Hey, you, you really, it doesn't matter what happens cause you don't need to do this.

You know, like you don't need to find out. Um, so man, that's pretty crazy. Um, so what, what is your understanding though with that question? I know, I know you're, I know you're saying, um, they don't have any right to, you know, uh, security of their salvation, right?

Yeah. Assurance of salvation. But then practically does someone who kills themselves, do they actually, do they go to heaven or do they go to hell? Right. So you have different, or does it depend?

Yeah. You have different postures here that are, that people have as it relates to this topic. And so like, um, you know, in, in the Catholic church kind of framework, when they're trying to answer this question, you know, you basically, uh, consider suicide a mortal sin or something like that.

And it's just, so you have this like posture that basically you treat suicide. Like some people treat suicide as if it's like an unpardonable sin or something like that. Right. So you treat it as that.

So if a person who commits suicide, then they basically, you treat it like an unpardonable sin. And you're either working through that with like a Roman Catholic church kind of understanding of how, like, um, like a mortal sin kind of category, or you're viewing it through like an Arminian lens, um, where you can lose your salvation in that way.

So then in those two frameworks, then like salvation is something that is not, um, like you don't have like a justification, justification by grace through faith as a punctiliar act where alien righteousness is attributed to you as a free gift.

You don't have like a punctiliar justification, uh, in those two frameworks and like in the Arminian framework you do, but then it's lost, right? In the Catholic church, you have a different framework for justification.

But then, so like, you know, what the Bible teaches is that like once a person truly is saved, they're always going to be saved. Okay. So, but what the Bible is teaching is like those who were saved will persevere to the end.

Okay. Yeah. Like they'll, like the one who endures to the end will be saved. The Bible says this over and over again. So true Christians will show evidence that they're Christians. That's the point. The truth is Christians will show evidence of it and they will persevere to the end.

So what you're having then as it relates to this topic of suicide is you're having a discussion about whether or not suicide is convincing evidence of perseverance. Does that make sense? Right. So that's what we're talking about.

Like, so when a person commits suicide, is that evidence of a failure to persevere, right? Right. Like that's what you're saying. So does that like prove that this person has fundamentally failed to persevere and thus demonstrate like in the same way that like if they apostatize, right, that like if they like chuck the faith, decide to become an atheist, it's not that they lost their salvation.

It's just that they never had it.

They never have it. They're one of the soils that essentially fell on the rocky ground. They sprung up for a little bit. They had no root in them. They fell away. Right. So is suicide conclusive evidence that a person had no root in them when the trials and tribulations of the world come and pressure is put on them, they revealed themselves to be what they truly are.

And I would say that, you know, as you read through the Bible, all the people who commit suicide are those who are not saved. Okay. Like, so there's no example of like a positive suicide like in that way.

So let me see if I can just answer the question in a modest way and then we can talk it through. Okay. Okay. So, so I think when a person like generally speaking, when, when a person commits suicide, what you're not meant to do is have strong confidence that they're a Christian at that point.

In fact, like overwhelmingly what you're meant to conclude is that they're probably not a Christian. Okay. So that's what you're meant to conclude. That they're probably not a Christian because that act seems to be so contrary to the nature of their faith that it should call into question their profession of faith to both you and to them.

Okay. So the Bible says that, um, you know, everyone who hates his brother, um, like no one who hates his brother is born of God. And, um, you know, basically no murderer will have eternal life abiding in him.

Okay. So first John basically tells us that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. And like, like, so murder is like a heinous sin and suicide is an act of self hatred. It's active hatred for everyone around them.

It's a self-centered act. It's an act of, you know, self deletion in the phrase of this, uh, self self murder. Right. So like when you see people commit murder, you're supposed to think, oh, they're probably not a Christian.

That's the biblical stance. Does that make sense? So I asked this question as it relates to like, you know, a man murdering his wife, if a man is considering murdering his wife, you're supposed to look at a man murdering his wife and you're supposed to think to yourself, whoa, you can't do that and be a Christian.

Right. Yeah. If the spirit of God was at work in you, you wouldn't kill someone. But if you could just like say, Hey, I know it's wrong. I'm going to do it anyways, because I don't care. Then what you're doing is you're calling into question your fundamental Christian commitment to other people and to you.

So when you're thinking about suicide in that way, I think overwhelmingly you're supposed to, you're not supposed to have a judgment of charity. You're supposed to have a realistic judgment at that point and say, you probably like whatever that last act is unsettling and we should look at that last act and say, um, that shouldn't put us in a confident place of trust on your behalf.

Okay. So what you should, what you should do in the topic is that should be unsettling and that should cause you to doubt in your assurance for them. Okay. Yeah. But I mean, there could be scenarios where that could happen and you may not know.

Absolutely. So I don't, I don't want to say make it an absolute law or something like that, that anyone who commits suicide is definitely going to go to hell because I can imagine certain scenarios where it could happen.

And there's scenarios that, um, are happening for different reasons than the normal standard, just hopeless despair all the way down. So like if a person gets, um, you know, diagnosed with a major depressive disorder or something like that, he's going to be put on antidepressants.

Right. And, and you know, when you come off these drugs, one of the things that happens is one of the consequences of coming off these drugs is you have suicidal thoughts. So a lot of people who come off these drugs really quickly, they end up killing themselves.

And the reason why they kill themselves is not because the depression did it right. What happened is that they were chemically dependent upon these, you know, either the antidepressants or the anti-anxiety meds, whichever ones they were using at that point being prescribed, sometimes a combination of both.

So what's happening is they're coming off of these drugs and then those drugs like are, um, mind altering drugs that are changing their, the way their brain is working at that point. And the feelings of despair are so a power overpowering at that point to where a person like might kill themselves because they were, but, but the problem is that they were told this was like medicine, right?

Right. Yeah. So they were told that this was medicine and like they came off of it and now I quickly came off of it and now all of a sudden they're killing himself and you don't necessarily know what's happening.

So in that way, I mean, I don't think you can like judge with absolute certainty every time a person kills himself.

What's going on. Yeah. Cause that in this, in that scenario, it could, you know, it could just as easily be like a guy who is legitimately a Christian who's legitimately saved, but then they're just, you know, incredibly naive in this one aspect and then they get lied to and taken advantage of.

Right.

Right. And so now I'm not trying to say in those moments that, um, it's entirely clear what's going on. Okay. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, that makes sense. So, I mean, I'm trying to say that like there is, um, like in those moments, like there may be contributing factors to things.

And I mean, I don't know, like in any given situation, I mean, there's a lot of scenarios where a person can die and it can appear to be a suicide and you just don't know what's going on. You don't have enough evidence to evaluate it.

Right.

So like The suicide to the back of the head type thing. Yeah. I mean, so there's The Hillary Clinton. Yeah.

The Epstein kind of scenario. Sure. Yeah. I mean, so there's plenty of scenarios like that where you just, you don't have the information you need to know. And, you know, and a lot of times it's just unhelpful to comment.

Okay. Cause you don't know what you need to know. You don't know what's happening. You don't know enough information, but like, so leaving that aside, like I think we, we, there may be scenarios where, uh, like a truly Christian person does kill themselves, uh, for a variety of reasons.

Like we're trying, we're talking about, and there's a lot of like, you know, these final death moments where just don't have enough information to know what actually happened there and what didn't happen there.

And it could be set up to look a certain way and not, so it's not our job to piece it all together. Okay. It's not, it's not our job to piece it all together, but we, like, that doesn't mean then that like you can air in two ways.

You can air in saying, okay, well they killed himself. I know they killed himself. And despite, you know, like all the evidence points to, they killed himself. I know they killed himself. And therefore that's my story.

I'm sticking to it. And they're, they're burning in hell right now. You can go that route or you can go the opposite route where you're basically just.

Hey, nothing bad will happen to you at all. You should probably just do it.

Yeah. Just go for it. Yeah. So now like, and that's where like you're on both sides, you're speaking above your pay grade. Okay. Like you don't know, like you don't, like, and it's just as wrong to like preach a scoundrel into heaven as it is to, you know, preach a godly man into hell, so to speak.

Like, so you don't, like fundamentally there's a, I mean, there is some comfort in knowing that it's not our job to figure it out. However, like now having said that, like my posture is just to say that it's doubtful, like it should be extremely doubtful that a true Christian would kill themselves.

It's a big red flag. It's a big red flag. You shouldn't, that, that shouldn't be a confidence producing exercise. In fact, you should, you know, if, if you were asked to, you know, if it wasn't sinful to bet money on it or something like that, if you, if you're asked to put money on it or something, I don't think you should bet.

You should bet against it, you know, like meaning like it's like, um, the Bible says no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. So, you know, and if you can get yourself out of processing this conversation emotionally and think about it logically, you know, and I tried to do this with.

People on Twitter, but it doesn't always help, but I'm surprised.

It doesn't always help, man. But, um, no, like just think about it this way. If I were to like, or not me, but like if someone were to say, Hey, I know it's wrong, but I'm going to go kidnap an African and make them my slave because God will forgive me.

Right. Yeah. Everyone should have a category for saying, Hey, yeah, man, I don't think you're a Christian.

But Tim, he's just trying to show everyone how gracious God is.

The Bible says you don't continue in sin that grace may abound. And, you know, you have the warning passage of scripture that, you know, talks about, you know, those who willfully intentionally sinned, you know, um, that there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin, but only a fearful expectation of judgment that, you know, and fire that will consume their adversaries.

And like the Bible warns us against high handed rebellion against God, where we know what his word says, and we just simply don't care. And we're, you know, basically presuming on his grace. And this is essentially the temptation of Satan to Jesus at that point where, you know, uh, Satan is tempting Jesus to presume on God's grace and God's promises and saying, Hey, you know, you, um, God says that you won't, you know, dash your foot against a stone to throw yourself off a building.

And there's a lot of people who they really don't understand how this concept works. Like, you know, if you're an individual who is just willing to, you know, defy God to his face intentionally, not just like as an accident, cause you were weak or you didn't, weren't thinking, but basically you plan it out, right?

You plan it out. You say, I know it's wrong, but I'm going to do it anyways. Cause I don't care. And God will forgive me later. Like no one should ever be confident in the salvation of anyone who takes that kind of posture, those kinds of moments.

Weakness, Planning, and the Path to Violent Sin

Okay. What about like, you know, what about for the person who, um, isn't necessarily doing it from like a, you know, high handed rebellion aspect, you know, like where they're like, I just don't care.

Um, well, I mean, I, I guess this does kind of fall into that category, but basically like the person who's just, they're having like a moment of weakness and they make a decision that probably otherwise they might not make.

I, because I saw that as like, you know, I saw people commenting on the, on the, um, you know, on the Twitter thread, like what about the person who just has a moment of weakness? Right. I mean, I guess technically they are still saying, Hey, I know God, I know God, um, you know, like this won't please him, but I'm going to do it anyways because there's no other option.

So I guess it does still fall under that category.

Yeah. I mean, I think the analogy I would give, and this is a now like people like, um, they only have a category, like I said, for viewing suicide, uh, suicidal people as just like helpless victims. Sure.

Yeah. Like in their biological prison. But like, it's, um, you know, a lot of people struggle with how this works and a lot of this is like a Lordship of salvation, Lordship salvation kind of discussion that we're having.

Okay. So, you know, the way, way to think about it is this, like, just imagine, um, we were like at war with, with China or something like that. Right. All right. All right. So imagine we're at war with China and, um, you have a U S soldier who basically like, you know, he's in the U S army and he's like, Hey, you know what?

Like, I'm just gonna, I know it's wrong. And I know as a, you know, Patriot, I shouldn't do this, but I'm just going to give China our nuclear codes. Okay. And, um, you know, because I just, they're nice people and, you know, they're offering me a lot of money and, and, um, I'm just going to give them our codes and, you know, uh, I, I'll just ask everyone to forgive me afterwards.

Right. Like, uh, after China nukes the entire country to shreds. Okay.

Like, and so that one's on me guys. Yeah. You know, I know it was wrong guys.

I know it was wrong. You know, I still like you, you know, we're still cool. Right.

We're still cool. Hey, who, who hasn't made that mistake before?

Who wouldn't, you know, who wouldn't do that? So that what you're talking about in those, what you're talking about in those kind of moments though, is you're talking about like planned rebellion. You get what I'm saying?

Yeah. Yeah. You're not talking about like in a moment of weakness or something like that. Like, um, like, um, like just, um, like a person in a moment of weakness who like, uh, they look too long at the computer screen or something like that, you know, temptation arise.

You're talking about someone who like plotted out like, like a month, month long plans, right? Like put month long plan plans in motion in order to execute, execute like this plan that they had been carrying out.

Like that involves a lot of lying, a lot of deceiving and a lot of like stuff. Right. So like that gives you what I'm trying to say is that gives you some sort of category for the kind of things that we're talking about here.

Meaning like there are, there are momentary sins, right? Yeah. There are like, there are sins you can happen in a moment where you're fallen and you're not committed, but there are some sins that require intentionality and planning.

Right. And thoughtfulness. And so like, when you're talking about suicide, like, um, like who just sits around with a gun, you get what I'm saying?

I don't know. I guess I'm probably more thinking, and this, this is still a little silly. You might laugh, but I'm thinking more of like the, um, you know, Romeo and Juliet things like where I it's been so long and I can't even remember which one, which one, you know, dies actually dies first.