Do Self-Deleted People Go to Hell?

you are looking at your maker and you're spitting in his face and you're despising his good gifts that he's given him.

You're saying that functionally that you are unwilling to trust him, right, and unwilling to accept whatever provenance that he has given you and you're saying that you are not enough for me.

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The message of Christianity is that salvation is found in Christ alone, and any who reject

Christ therefore forfeit any hope of salvation, any hope of heaven.

The issue is that humanity is in sin and the wrath of almighty

God. God wrapped himself in flesh, condescended, and became a man, died on the cross for sin, was resurrected on the third day, has ascended to the right hand of the

Father, where he sits now to make intercession for us. Jesus is saying there is a group of people who will hear

His words, they will act upon them, and when the floods of divine judgment come in that final day, their house will stand.

Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrigg and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll answer the age old question, do self -deleted people go to hell?

Now before we start this episode, I've just got to level with you guys here a little bit who are listening.

That sounds like a strange way to ask a title question. And if you read the -

It is a strange way. Well, that's what I was about to say. If you read the title question and thought, that's weird, why did they word this the way that they did?

Well, you're completely justified in thinking that. This is frankly a stupid way to have to ask this question.

However, we're asking it this way because once we upload this to the various platforms that we use, it's inevitably going to get taken down if we had suicide in the title.

And so we use the word self -deleted and in YouTube's attempts to try and do whatever it is they're trying to protect people from, they've forced us into using what

I think is just an objectively worse way to describe it, honestly, by saying self -deleted.

It sounds so much more disrespectful. It sounds like you're making a whole joke out of this entire topic when it's actually a pretty serious topic to be talking about.

And we can't even use the word that most accurately describes what's going on here without threat of just having this removed automatically.

And if it gets removed, there's no way we're going to be able to appeal it. So if you thought this was a weird title, that's why we're having to word it this way.

It's just a stupid, this is stupid that we're having to do it this way. But it is what it is.

And we still wanted to talk about the topic because it's a pretty, for some people, a pretty complicated issue.

And obviously, there's a lot of baggage that comes with a topic like this.

And so we still wanted to talk about it and give you guys a biblical perspective on things.

So, Tim, why don't we just go ahead and you talk a little bit about what some more of the motivation behind this episode is?

Yeah, well, I think it's an important topic to talk about, and a lot of people, they really do think very sentimentally about this topic in general.

It's one of those topics where people really have been trained to view people who commit suicide as victims.

And so in that kind of framework, there's a lot of irrational expectations that you're supposed to have in these kind of scenarios, meaning what you're supposed to do when you view someone as a victim.

We live in a victim society right now. So when you view someone as a victim, then the rules are you can't shame them and you can't blame them and you have to support them.

And you can't say anything that would disparage them or say anything negative about them.

And basically, you're in this kind of situation where you have to take their side. You have to believe them.

You have to support them. But then the problem with suicide is that when you're talking about suicide, the victim, you know, quote unquote, the victim is the perpetrator.

OK, and not only are they the perpetrator, but then there's a lot of other people who are victimized by their actions as well.

So there's few more selfish and cowardly things that a person can do than to commit suicide.

But then if I say that, if I say that there's few things that are more selfish and cowardly than the act of killing yourself, then all of a sudden what

I've done is I've run afly of these expectations that everyone has for me, meaning

I just did something fundamentally immoral in the minds of many people because I dared to criticize the act.

But then the problem is that if you don't criticize the act, then you're in this awkward situation where you're actually encouraging people to kill themselves.

Right. So so like if you have to praise this act and like celebrate this act, like what what's happening is, you know, in particularly as I've talked to people on the

Internet about this, like it's almost like you have to turn. The suicide, like the person who committed suicide into a triumphant hero and like the triumphant hero of their story and consider it like a triumphant act of bravery or you fundamentally you've done something wrong.

So this is one of those topics where you can't talk about without running afoul of the expectations of, you know, individuals who are so sensitive, like they're so sensitive, like and like they have no concept of what it means to actually love people that like in their sick and twisted world, love ultimately means praising a person for ending their life.

So like in that way, love is like like in order to show love, you have to encourage someone in the act of killing themselves.

And so whatever love is, it's not that does that make sense? Yeah, I guess I guess in my I've had a little bit different experience in terms of, you know, helping people deal with this kind of thing where it's not necessarily like a, you know, like a praising the suicide in and of itself, but rather it's it's more of this weird sort of like you can't and this this sort of goes on into pretty much any sort of like funeral type situation, no matter how the person actually died.

But you really can't say anything bad about them, no matter what. I mean, maybe, you know, like maybe for Hitler or something you can, but then just for normal everyday people, even if they were terrible in their life, you have to praise the scoundrel no matter how bad he was and you have to preach him into heaven.

And there's plenty of pastors who are functionally turned into liars at the funeral where they basically have to, you know, for the sake of love for everyone else, they basically have to turn this, you know, turn the worst scoundrels imaginable into saints.

Right. Yeah. And so so I've had that sort of I've had a little bit more of that kind of experience when it comes to suicide and not necessarily like, like I said, they're not they're not really praising what what that person has done, but rather just trying to, you know, think the best of that person in light of everything that's happened.

But I think in my mind where, you know, I think I think it's good to honor the dead, but then it gets really strange when you start thinking about like what, you know, motivations for things.

And and, you know, it seems like like a pretty like a pretty selfish thing to do.

Yeah. So what's happening, though, is like there is this demand that you honor the dead and you don't speak ill of the dead.

And so and then there's this demand that you like turn them into heroes and rise them and everything else is that.

But then what's happening with suicide is there's another dynamic that's happening. And, you know, and it may be that like this dynamic is not intuitive to biblically minded people at all.

But, you know, as I've interacted with people on the Internet about this and just people in real life about it, like the problem is that suicide is viewed as we're living in a like a society right now that is essentially dominated by a materialistic worldview.

Right. So what's happening is when you talk about this subject instantaneously, you're having a you're basically having a psychological disorder discussion without knowing it.

OK, OK. So so what's happening is like that's that's what you're having. And so in the minds of many people, that person who killed himself or that person who is considering killing themself, they're viewed through the language of victimization from the start.

OK, sure. So they're viewed as like the only way they would get there. Like this is in people's minds. The only way they get there is if they are suffering from a mental disorder.

OK. And so if they're suffering from a mental disorder. Like they have depression, right.

So maybe they just use depression as an example that they're suffering from depression in the minds of many people.

What's happened is they view that as a medical illness that this person has suffered from. OK, so it's a medical illness.

So like they experience something sad. And in their minds, what's happened is that this person who has experienced some trauma in their life, like they're now a victim, like they're viewed in victim language, like as if they're suffering from cancer.

And what you have to do in that in that framework is you have to basically treat them as if they're a cancer patient.

OK, so so you're viewing the suicidal person as suffering from depression.

They're suffering from an illness. I can that's what people think in their minds. They immediately go there and you don't go there because you don't think this way, but they go there.

They think they're suffering from a mental disorder. OK, they're suffering from an illness. And what that means is their brain is fundamentally broken.

Right, their brain is fundamentally broken and there's no way out, no, there's no way out. So they're trapped, you know, they're trapped in a biological prison of pain that is totally inescapable.

And you have to view them as if they're like their their body, their biology is like beating them down as if they were like a poor, you know.

Five year old Siberian orphan or something like that, who is being abused by, you know, the the monstrous orphanage workers in that way.

So you have to view them like that, like they're deprived of parents, like they're a child, like this is an adult. You have to view as if they're a child deprived of parents who are being physically abused by like they're, you know, unloving overlords in that way.

So but then like what's happening is their brain is doing that. That's what they think. OK, so their brain is like the, you know, the the hateful, you know, this poor soul and they're trapped in this like endless suffering.

Right. And then what you have to do, like in their mind, like the only way out for them is encouragement.

You see what I'm saying? Like that's the only way out. So the only like so you're this person who is trapped in this biological prison like that is your mind and then you're trapped there and the only way out is to encourage this person.

OK, that's really interesting because, you know, for me, I've I've only ever heard people say, you know, basically like treating suicide a lot more like probably what at least, you know, hopefully people were saying five or 10 years ago, which was, you know, hey, like like you're making a long term decision over a short term problem or anything that's trying to, you know, basically walk the person back, the person off the ledge.

Right. But then you're saying you're saying that you've seen people lean much more into the.

Well, yeah. What what other option do they have? Right. Well, that's I mean, that's essentially. So I did a poll, a poll on Twitter, and I was basically saying, do you know, you can word it however you want, but do like essentially the point of the poll is just to say, do suicides go to hell, essentially?

So do people who commit suicide, do they go to hell? And like in the minds of many people, like, you know, what had happened was

I'm doing this poll on do suicides go to hell and everyone is basically taking a posture that says that like you need to think the best.

Right. Everyone's posture is basically you need to think the best and you need to like you don't know. And, you know, yeah, you know, good

Christians get depressed, right? Good Christians get depressed. Everyone gets depressed, you know, and then, you know, Elijah got depressed and all that.

Right. And so everyone gets depressed. And so like like the vast majority of darkness or whatever, yeah.

Dark matter soul. Yeah. All that soul. Yeah. Yeah. So then like the issue is like instantaneously people are thinking in terms of mental disorders and depression and everything else.

And so like there's a demand to say, hey, we're saved by grace, faith, none of works. And so, you know, we're not Roman Catholics.

And so what you have to do is you have to say, yes, they do go to heaven because you don't want to say something mean.

But then, you know, we had there was a there was a young man on there who basically says that he tried to he's thought about killing himself and tried to kill himself.

And, you know, he struggled through this issue, like if he did it, would he go to heaven or not? And, you know, he's doing that in the context of a poll where, you know, 70 percent of the people were saying, yes, you can go to heaven and still kill yourself.

Right. And so in that kind of context, then I'm basically starting to say, hey, like, you know, you need to warn people about this.

Right. Yeah. You need to warn people like you, like if you're considering killing yourself, you ought to have no assurance of your salvation in that moment.

Right. And now the moment I start doing that, then you have people like and I'm doing that because I'm trying to save a kid's life.

Right. Yeah. But then you have people who are like to basically discourage him from going down that road and warn him as the

Bible warns him, you know, with all the warning passages there are in the Bible about that kind of thing. But then immediately people are just like.

Like they think what's happening when you're trying to warn someone against the danger of killing yourself, like they think that like what's happening is fundamentally monstrous, it must be stopped.

Right. And you like you must like the only answer for this person is to encourage them in that moment.

And if you take away their assurance of salvation, like then in that moment, what you're doing is you're taking away their only hope and what you have to do is encourage them.

It's like, no, like you guys have got the situation exactly opposite. What you don't want to do with a suicidal person is to tell them, like, don't worry,

God loves you. And regardless of whatever you do, you'll end up in heaven. Like that's exactly the wrong counsel. OK, that's exactly the wrong counsel that you need to be giving in that moment.

And the kind of counsel you need to be giving in that moment is just to say, like, repent. Right. And the

Bible has warnings against murder and everything else. But what I'm trying to say, though, is like like instantaneously what you have is you have a lot of people who are so committed to the idea of this is a victim, like a suicide person is a victim of a mental disorder.

They must be encouraged. Like the only answer out is to encourage them and basically not shame them in any way.

And what you end up having is a situation where functionally a bunch of people are coming along and trying to basically tell a suicidal person that they should have absolute confidence that they can go through with their act and end up in heaven.

And you end up I mean, basically what you're doing is actually encouraging them to kill himself. Man, that's a lot.

Why don't we OK, so why don't we start with the the actual title question?

You know, it sounds so you're saying. So you're saying, you know, with the suicidal person, you don't tell them that, you know, like, hey, yeah, you're definitely going to go to heaven if you go through with this.

Right. That's the worst. Yeah, that's the worst possible thing you could say. I mean, that seems like probably not the thing.

It seems like if anything, you would want to be talking on back to like, like, you know, hey, you you really it doesn't matter what happens because you don't need to do this.

You know what? You don't need to find out. So, man, that's pretty crazy.

So what what is your understanding, though, with that question? I know

I know you're I know you're saying they don't have any right to, you know, security of their salvation.

Right. Yeah. Assurance of salvation. But then practically, does someone who kills themself, do they actually do they go to heaven or do they go to hell?

Right. So you have different or does it depend? Yeah, you have different postures here that are that people have as it relates to this topic.

And so, like, you know, in the Catholic church kind of framework, when they're trying to answer this question, you know, you basically consider suicide a mortal sin or something like that.

And it's just so you have this like posture that basically you treat suicide. Some people treat suicide as if it's like an unpardonable sin or something like that.

Right. So you treat it as if a person who commits suicide, then they basically you treat it like an unpardonable sin.

And you're either working through that with like a Roman Catholic church kind of understanding of how like like a mortal sin kind of category or you're viewing it through like an

Arminian lens where you can lose your salvation in that way. So then in those two frameworks, then like salvation is something that is not.

You don't have like a justification, justification by grace of faith as a punctilious act where alien righteousness is attributed to you as if you don't have like a punctilious justification in those two frameworks and like in the

Arminian framework you do, but then it's lost. Right. The Catholic church, you have a different framework for justification.

Sure. But then so like, you know, what the Bible teaches is that like once a person truly is saved, they're always going to be saved.

OK, so but what the Bible is teaching is like those who are saved will persevere to the end.

OK, yeah, like they'll like the one who endures to the end will be saved. The Bible says this over and over again. So true Christians will show evidence that they're

Christians. That's the point that true Christians will show evidence of it and they will persevere to the end.

So what you're having then as it relates to this topic of suicide is you're having a discussion about whether or not suicide is convincing evidence of perseverance.

Does that make sense? Right, so that's what we're talking about. Like so when a person commits suicide, is that evidence of a failure to persevere?

Right. Right. Like that's what you're saying. So does that like prove that this person has fundamentally failed to persevere and thus demonstrate in the same way that like if they apostatize, right, that like if they like chuck the faith, decide to become an atheist, it's not that they lost their salvation.

It's just that they never had it. They never have it. They're one of the soils that essentially fell on the rocky ground.

They sprung up for a little bit. They had no root in them. They fell away. Right. So is person like is suicide conclusive evidence that a person had no root in them when the trials and tribulations of the world come and the pressure is put on them, they revealed themselves to be what they truly are.

And I would say that, you know, as you read the Bible, all the people who commit suicide are those who are not saved.

OK, like so there's no example of like a positive suicide like in that way.

So let me see if I can just answer the question in a modest way and then we can talk it through. OK, OK. So so I think when a person like generally speaking, when when a person commits suicide, what you're not meant to do is have strong confidence that they're a

Christian at that point. In fact, like overwhelmingly what you're meant to conclude is that they're probably not a

Christian. OK, so that's what you're meant to conclude, that they're probably not a Christian because that act seems to be so contrary to the nature of their faith that it should call into question their profession of faith to both you and to them.

OK, so the Bible says that, you know, everyone who hates his brother, like no one who hates his brother is born of God.

And, you know, basically no murderer will have eternal life abiding in him.

OK, so First John basically tells us that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. And so murder is like a heinous sin.

And suicide is an act of self -hatred, an act of hatred for everyone around them. It's a self -centered act.

It's an act of self deletion in the phrase of this self self -murder.

Right. So like when you see people commit murder, you're supposed to think, oh, they're probably not a

Christian. That's the biblical stance. Does that make sense? So I ask this question as it relates to like, you know, a man murdering his wife.

If a man is considering murdering his wife, you're supposed to look at a man murdering his wife and you're supposed to think to yourself, well, you can't do that and be a

Christian, right? Yeah. If the spirit of God was at work in you, you wouldn't kill someone. But if you could just like say, hey,

I know it's wrong. I'm going to do it anyways because I don't care. Then what you're doing is you're calling into question your fundamental

Christian commitment to other people and to you. So when you're thinking about suicide in that way,

I think overwhelmingly you're supposed to you're not supposed to have a judgment of charity. You're supposed to have a realistic judgment at that point and say you probably whatever that last act is unsettling.

And we should look at that last act and say. That shouldn't put us in a confident place of trust on your behalf,

OK? So what you should what you should do in the topic is that should be unsettling and that should cause you to doubt in your assurance for them,

OK? Yeah. But I mean, there could be scenarios where that could happen and you may not know. Absolutely. So I don't

I don't want to say make it an absolute law or something like that, that anyone who commits suicide is definitely going to go to hell because I can imagine certain scenarios where it could happen.

And there's scenarios that. Are happening for different reasons than the normal standard, just hopeless despair all the way down.

So like if a person gets diagnosed with major depressive disorder or something like that, he's going to be put on antidepressants.

Right. And and, you know, when you come off these drugs, one of the things that happens is one of the consequences of coming off these drugs is you have suicidal thoughts.

So a lot of people who come off these drugs really quickly, they end up killing themselves. And the reason why they killed themselves is not because the depression did it right.

What happened is that they were chemically dependent upon these, you know, either the antidepressants or the anti -anxiety meds, whichever ones they were using at that point being prescribed, sometimes a combination of both.

So what's happening is they're coming off of these drugs and then those drugs like are mind altering drugs that are changing the way their brain is working at that point.

And the feelings of despair are so a power overpowering at that point to where a person like might kill themselves because they were.

But but the problem is that they were told this was like medicine. Right. Right. Yeah. So they were told that this was medicine and like they came off of it and now quickly came off of it.

And now all of a sudden they're killing himself and you don't necessarily know what's happening. So in that way, I mean,

I don't think you can judge with absolute certainty every time a person kills himself.

Right. In fact, is that in this in that scenario, it could, you know, it could just as easily be like a guy who is legitimately a

Christian who's legitimately saved. But then they're just, you know, incredibly naive in this one aspect and then they get lied to and taken advantage of.

Right. Right. And so now I'm not trying to say in those moments that it's entirely clear what's going on.

OK. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. So, I mean, I'm trying to say that like there is like in those moments, like there may be contributing factors to things.

And I mean, I don't know, like in any given situation. I mean, there's a lot of scenarios where a person can die and it can appear to be a suicide and you just don't know what's going on.

You don't have enough evidence to evaluate it. Right. So like the suicide to the back of the head type.

Yeah. I mean, so there's one, the Epstein kind of scenario. Yeah, sure. I mean, so there's plenty of scenarios like that where you just you don't have the information you need to know.

And, you know, and a lot of times it's just unhelpful to comment. OK, because you don't know what you need to know.

You don't know what's happening. You don't know enough information. But like so leaving that aside, like I think we we there may be scenarios where like a truly

Christian person does kill himself for a variety of reasons. Like we're trying what we're talking about.

And there's a lot of like, you know, these final death moments where you just don't have enough information to know what actually happened there and what didn't happen there.

And it could be set up to look a certain way and not. So it's not our job to piece it all together. OK, it's not our job to piece it all together.

But we like that doesn't mean then that like you can err in two ways.

You can err in saying, OK, well, they killed himself. I know they killed himself. And despite, you know, like all the evidence points to they killed himself,

I know they killed himself. And therefore, that's my story. I'm sticking to it. And they're they're burning in hell right now. You can go that route or you can go the opposite route where you're basically just.

Hey, nothing bad will happen to you at all. You should probably just do it. Yeah, just go for it.

Yeah. So now like and that's where like you're on both sides, you're speaking above your pay grade, OK? Like you don't know, like you don't like and it's just as wrong to like preach a scoundrel into heaven as it is to, you know, preach a godly man into hell, so to speak.

Right. Like so you don't like fundamentally there's a I mean, there is some comfort in knowing that it's not our job to figure it out.

However, like now having said that, like my posture is just to say that it's doubtful, like it should be extremely doubtful that a true

Christian would kill themselves. It's a big red flag. It's a big red flag. You should that that shouldn't be a confidence producing exercise.

In fact, you should you know, if if you were asked, you know, if it wasn't sinful to bet money on it or something like that, if you if you're asked to put money on it or something,

I don't think you should bet you should bet against it, you know, like meaning like it's like the

Bible says no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. So, you know, and if you can get yourself out of processing this conversation emotionally and think about it logically, you know, and I tried to do this with people on Twitter, but it doesn't always help.

But I'm surprised it doesn't always help, man. But no, just think about it this way.

If I were to like it or not me, but like if someone were to say, hey, I know it's wrong, but I'm going to go kidnap an

African and make them my slave. Because God will forgive me, right? Yeah, yeah.

Everyone should have a category for saying, hey, yeah, man, I'm just you're a Christian, but I'm just trying to show everyone how gracious God is.

But the Bible says you don't continue in sin that grace may abound. And, you know, you have the warning passage of scripture that, you know, talks about, you know, those who willfully and intentionally sin, you know, that there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin, but only a fearful expectation of judgment that, you know, and fire that will consume their adversaries.

And like the Bible warns us against high handed rebellion against God, where we know what his word says and we just simply don't care.

And we're, you know, basically presuming on his grace. And this is essentially the temptation of Satan to Jesus at that point where, you know,

Satan is tempting Jesus to presume on God's grace and God's promises and saying, hey, you know, you

God says that you won't, you know, dash your foot against a stone, so throw yourself off a building.

And there's a lot of people who they really don't understand how this concept works, like, you know, if you're an individual who is just willing to, you know, defy

God to his face intentionally, not just like as an accident because you were weak or you weren't thinking, but basically you plan it out, right?

You plan it out. You say, I know it's wrong, but I'm going to do it anyways, because I don't care. And God will forgive me later.

Like no one should ever be confident in the salvation of anyone who takes that kind of posture, those kinds of moments.

Hmm. Okay. What about like, you know, what about for the person who, um, isn't necessarily doing it from like a, you know, high handed rebellion aspect, you know, like where they're like,

I just don't care. Um, well, I mean, I, I guess this does kind of fall into that category, but basically like the person who's just, they're having like a moment of weakness and they make a decision that probably otherwise they might not make.

I, because I saw that as like, you know, I saw people commenting on the, on the, um, you know, on the

Twitter thread, like, what about the person who just has a moment of weakness, right?

I mean, I guess technically they are still saying, Hey, I know God, I know God, um, you know, like this won't please him, but I'm going to do it anyways, because there's no other option.

So I guess it does still fall under that category. Yeah. I think the analogy I would give, and this is an out like people, like, um, they only have a category, like I said, for viewing suicide, uh, suicidal people as just like helpless victims, like in their biological prison, but like, it's, um, you know, a lot of people struggle with how this works.

And a lot of this is like a Lordship of salvation, Lordship salvation kind of discussion that we're having.

Okay. So, you know, the way, the way to think about it is this, like, just imagine, um, we were like at war with, with China or something like that.

Right. All right. All right. So imagine we're at war with China and, um, you have a

U S soldier who basically like, you know, he's in the U S army, but he's like,

Hey, you know what? Like, I'm just gonna, I know it's wrong. And I know as a, you know,

Patriot, I shouldn't do this, but I'm just going to give China our nuclear codes. And, um, you know, because I just, they're nice people and, you know, they're offering me a lot of money and, and, um,

I'm just going to give them our codes and, you know, uh, I, uh, I'll just ask everyone to forgive me afterwards.

Right. Like, uh, after China nukes, the entire country to shreds. Okay. Like, and so that one's on me guys.

Yeah. You know, I know it was wrong guys. I know it was wrong. You know, I still like you, you know, we're still cool. Right.

We're still cool. Hey, who hasn't made that mistake before? Who wouldn't, you know, who wouldn't do that? So that what you're talking about in those, what you're talking about in those kind of moments though, is you're talking about like planned rebellion.

You get what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. You're not talking about like in a moment of weakness or something like that.

Like, um, like, um, like just, um, like a person in a moment of weakness who like, they look too long at the computer screen or something like that, you know, temptation arise, you're talking about someone who like plotted out, like, like a month, month long plans, right?

Like put month long plan plans in motion in order to execute like this plan that they had been carrying out, like that involves a lot of lying, a lot of deceiving and a lot of like stuff.

Right. So like that gives you, what I'm trying to say is that gives you some sort of category for the kind of things that we're talking about here.

Meaning like there are, there are momentary sins, right? Yeah. There are like, there are sins you can happen in a moment where you're fallen and you're not committed, but there are some sins that require intentionality and planning, right?

And thoughtfulness. And so like, when you're talking about suicide, like, um, like who just sits around with a gun, you get what

I'm saying? I don't know. I guess I'm probably more thinking, and this, this is still a little silly.

You might laugh, but I'm thinking more of like the, um, you know, Romeo and Juliet thing, like where I, it's been so long and I can't even remember which one, which one, you know, dies actually dies first.

I think, I guess maybe it's, maybe it's Juliet who she thinks Romeo, Romeo is dead.

And so she just, in the moment, you know, kills herself and then Romeo realizes and kills himself too, you know?

So I I'm probably more thinking like, I'm, I understand that that is a very unlikely scenario.

No, I mean, there's people, I mean, I think there are plenty of like crimes of passion. There are plenty of momentary situations and things like that.

But what I'm, what I'm trying to talk about, like what I'm not trying to say is that, um, every suicide has the intentionality of the situation

I just described, right? Of the giving of the nuclear codes. The giving of the nuclear codes kind of scenario.

But what I'm trying to say is like what you're, um, what, what you should be thinking in these moments is that there are, um, there are like, a lot of these things are planned, right?

So you're driving yourself out to a specific location, you're driving yourself out to a location, you're, you're thinking about the means that you're going to do to carry it out, getting the material and everything else.

And so like, there's, um, there's thought put into it. There's plans put into it. People think about how they're going to do it and there's a process that builds up to it.

And so now with, with all that, like, I mean, I can, I can imagine some sort of scenarios where the planning is more, and I can imagine some sort of scenarios where the planning is less, but what we have to do, like, here's what we have to do though.

We have to, like, we have to view, um, like there are like, you can murder someone in a quick way and you can do it in a calculated way, right?

So you can understand a scenario where, you know, person catches his wife in bed with someone and they do it, crime of passion.

Like, yeah, we, you obviously understand that kind of act a lot better than you understand like the intentional cold calculated plan that has been going on and on for months.

So there's obviously scenarios all along the spectrum there. But what I'm trying to talk, what I'm trying to say though, is that, that, you know, what's in a person's heart is going to come out.

Okay. But what's in a person's heart is going to come out. And like, if you have murder in your heart, it'll come out.

You know what I'm saying? So a lot of people, they have like this perspective that like people just snap in these moments.

But then what's happening is you prepare yourself over the course of your life to respond in these moments and what's in your heart is going to come out.

And what I'm trying to say is like, like, here's the point I'm trying to make is that like individuals in these, like in these moments, right.

They're, they're living out what's in their heart. And if you like, like, if you're a murderer in your heart, it's going to come out.

Okay. And like, so in these moments, we shouldn't like, regardless of like how much planning, how little planning, there are certain actions that you can take that should be totally out of character for you.

Right. So no one ever says like in a moment of weakness, I just wanted to kidnap the person. Uh -huh.

Yeah. All right. So, but how is that different than a moment of weakness? I wanted to kill the person. What, what do you mean?

How, I mean, like, that's just a, not even something that people say. I know, but, but why, what is it different about it?

What is different about it compared to, compared to what? Well, I mean, what's different about saying in a moment of weakness,

I just wanted to kill some, I wanted to kidnap someone. I mean, that's such a stupid thing to say.

Well, why? Like it's still wrong. Why is it stupid? You still kidnap the person. But why? Well, because like who, like,

I don't know that I've ever heard of anyone in a moment of weakness. But why?

So maybe the only, the only thing I can think of that's even close and it's not close is just thinking like someone who just like, like stole someone's dog in a moment of like,

Hey, that's a, that's a cool dog. I'm going to take that dog. But even that is like, who says that?

And they're not people. So, so what was happening? Yeah. What's happening though, is like, in order to get to that point, there are steps.

Yeah. You got to like, yeah, yeah. There's stuff that you got to figure out. You got to figure out the dude's schedule or something.

Well, you have to know where they're at. You got to know. So there was a story. Right. Well, no, no, no, no.

What I mean is like you, like for that to make sense, you had to feed that. Yeah.

Like in your heart. Yeah. You got to feed the. You have to feed the kidnapping desire for a long time.

Right. To actually go through with it. Right. Yeah. So, I mean, there was a story of a UPS guy who just grabbed a girl, right.

Just because he had a thought to do it. And like, he grabbed her and killed her and like, he had never done that before.

But I think basically he described it as like a compulsion that came upon him. Like to where he, he grabbed a girl, kidnapped her and went and killed her.

But then no one understands that. Like you, it sounds absurd, right? Right. If you say in a moment of weakness, because you know, that there are so many mental steps.

Like, what do you mean in a moment of weakness, you kidnap someone? Right. So it doesn't make, it doesn't make any sense because you know, that like, that's not normal.

Right. I want, I want to hear the person who's defending the, in the moment of weakness.

I could, I legit, I want to meet that person. Where, where are they? So I don't think they like that, that, uh, no, that guy who is the

UPS guy, he, he didn't use that language, but that's essentially what he's saying. Okay. Right. Yeah.

All right. So, but then no one understands. I would never do that. I don't know what came over me. Yeah. No one would, no one understands it because what's happening is like, we view that act as if it's so abnormal and out of character, that the only way we can conceive of it happening is if you fed that desire over a long period of time to where then you're just expressing what your heart, you prepared your heart to do in that moment.

Does that make sense? Yeah. All right. So what's happening with murder is like, it should be as unthinkable for a

Christian as that. Yeah. Do you get what I'm saying? Yeah.

But I guess it's not just because most people think like, well, you know, I'm going to be gone after like knowing, you know, there's no, there's no worldly consequence for me.

You know, if you live, like what I'm trying to say is if you've been embodying the fruit of the Sure. Love, joy, peace, long -suffering, gentleness, meekness, kindness, faithfulness, patience, self -control, you shouldn't be some angry maniac person, right?

Like you shouldn't be filled with depression. You shouldn't be just filled with worry. Like, like, so a

Christian should be embodying the fruit of the spirit to such an extent that the idea of ending their own life would be completely and totally out of character for them.

Does that make sense? Yeah. I mean, like. As out of character as kidnapping someone. Right. Yeah. So then like, it should be as laughable of a thought that a

Christian would kill themself in a moment of weakness as it would be that a

Christian should kidnap someone in a moment of weakness. Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah.

Like there should be like foreign thoughts. Like it should be just completely like, what are we talking about here?

Like, I have no desire to kill myself. Okay. Right. Like whatsoever. I mean, like,

I love the Lord. I want to live as Christ and to die as gain, right? Like it's no longer I, but Christ who lives within me, like the life that I now live in the flesh.

I live in faith, you know, in the son of God who loved me and gave himself up for me. So what I'm trying to say, what

I'm trying to say here is that like, there's like, in these moments, like what's happened is that we don't view that act with the same kind of scandal that we would view other acts, which, um, but we should, does that make sense?

Yeah. Yeah. So like, if you love people, like you're not going to kill them.

Right. And that's the logic of first John. Like, you know, um, everyone who hates his brother is a liar and the truth is not in him.

Right. So everyone who's born of God doesn't hate. Like the idea is that Christians should fundamentally not be filled with hate, but with love.

And you should love people so much that the idea of killing someone should be so. Like murdering someone should be so contrary to your nature and who you are, that you should be fundamentally repelled by that thought.

And if you love people more than you love yourself, the idea of abandoning them because something happened that you didn't like should be so out of character for you that it's laughable, absurd, and unthinkable.

Does that make sense? Yeah. And I think probably part of why that's such a foreign thought to people is just because, you know, we normally use the term suicide, which is fine.

But then the problem comes when, you know, we don't, I mean, I don't know anyone that thinks of suicide as like self murder.

I mean, I had a whole plan. I had a whole slew of questions that we're kind of getting to now that I was going to ask you about, you know, well, is, is suicide even objectively wrong?

Right. And I think you're saying, yes, based off of your answers just now, it's self murder, but then no one thinks of it as self murder.

Like you said, towards the beginning of the episode, they think of it as like a, you know, you're a victim, right?

Or they think of it in light of, well, it's your life. You can do with it whatever you want. Right. But then, you know,

I think your answer to that would be, and rightfully so, I think it's the biblical answers to say, well, well, the fact is like, you're not actually, your life is not actually your own.

Right. Would that be your own? And Genesis says, whoever sheds the blood of man by man shall his blood be shed for God made man in his own image.

You don't have the authority to end your own life. Right. So like our, the entire idea of like the biblical ethic on this is you don't belong to you.

You belong to God. You're his creation. He's Lord, not you. Right. Right. So you don't have the authority to shed man's blood, including your own.

Okay. You don't have the authority to do that because this doesn't belong to you. You are creation of God.

He's created you. You know, if you're a Christian, he's prepared good works before the foundation of the world that you should walk in them.

Right. And so like, he's Lord, not you. He owns you. You do not belong to you. So you don't have the authority to do this.

You know what I mean? Your whole idea of like murder is the killing of another person without justification or excuse.

So like this idea is it's self murder. Right. That's what it essentially is. It's self murder, self deletion, self murder.

Yeah. Golly, what a stupid way to, I can't believe we're having to do that. Thou shalt not murder, right?

Like thou shalt not kill. Like this is that kind of thing. You're not allowed to shed the blood of man. Right. So you don't belong to you.

So basically going back to the, you know, very rarely is this ever done, like in a moment of weakness, basically what you're saying is, hey, the person the person who actually goes through, uh, with killing themselves, they're the type of person who is, you know, they're,

I mean, they're being selfish. They're obviously committing murder. They've been feeding that for a long time.

Right. And the problem is, yeah, they've been for you, for someone to actually go through with that, right.

You have to have been feeding that for a long time. And not only are you being selfish and you're being a murderer, but then you're also like, um, you're living in anger.

Right. I mean, the Bible over and over again, equates anger with murder, um, time and time again.

So it seems like you're, you're feeding all of these negative things that the, and this, this sounds like what's, what are your, what you're saying, you know, you're feeding these same things, these evil things over and over again, when the fruit of the spirit of the

Holy spirit are the exact opposite. Yeah. So, I mean, I've never hit my wife and there would be no reason for me to do it.

Like meaning, um, like it's a foreign thought, like, and, but then like a lot of people don't, they don't understand how anger works.

So the way, the way that like these things happen is like, you don't just like punch your wife in the face one day on accident.

Like, that's just not the way it works. Like, you don't just like punch her in the face and the accident, like, oops. Like what happens is like when people, um, like anger is a fire.

Okay. And so like Bible says, let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you along with all malice, be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiven one another as God in Christ has forgiven you.

The issue is anger is a fire. And what, what happens is that like, there's like, like anger when at a starting point is a lot of the frustration, irritation, um, uh, uh, hurt, you know, like, so you have quiet anger, you have loud anger.

The quiet anger is like the I'm hurt kind of stuff. The, um,

I'm bitter, like bitterness. I'm mad at you. Cold shoulder kind of stuff. The loud anger when in small form is kind of like the irritation, the frustration, the annoyance.

Okay. So like if you, if you let irritation, frustration, annoyance run rampant in your heart, what's going to happen is like the next stage of it is going to be the clamor stuff like the yelling and screaming and stuff like that.

Right. So think about it this way. So it starts out with the frustration, the irritation, the annoyance. If you give that a free pass pretty soon, that's going to like, it's a fire that's growing.

It's going to get bigger and bigger and bigger. And then it's going to boil over into like the yelling and screaming. Right now, once you get accustomed to yelling and screaming as normal, right?

Like that's the normal way you communicate. You're accustomed to yelling and screaming. The next step of that is you're going to start hitting people, okay.

Or, or throwing things at them or whatever. So like the next step is going to be hitting people. And then, you know, once you get accustomed to doing that, the next step would be like with objects or stuff like that.

Right. So like, so think like it starts out with frustration, irritation, annoyance, and then it's going to get to like yelling and screaming.

Maybe you'll get to breaking things or something before you start hitting people. Right. But you get to breaking things in which that's normal.

You start hitting people. Start breaking people. Start using objects to do it.

And then the next step is you kill them. Okay. Like that's how it works. That's the path. Right now, if you're a person, like what, if you're a

Christian, like you shouldn't be just trying to keep from killing someone every day of your life.

Right. Like that's at least like the bare minimum.

I mean, that would be like, whoa, like pat yourself on the back. You didn't go through with it today.

Congratulations. Now you didn't kill. So, but then like, think about this path as it relates to killing yourself or killing someone else.

Do you understand what I'm saying? There's a path. There's a path here. So like the issue is like, right.

You start like, right. You should, if you're at the point where you're scared, you're going to kill someone.

You're pretty far down that road. Okay. Yeah. Like a concerning, a concerningly far, far down that road where in a moment of weakness, you can fall into the next step.

Do you get what I'm saying? Sure. Yeah. Right. So what should be happening is like, you should be fighting this thing at the level of frustration, right?

Like if you're fighting this at the level of frustration, irritation, annoyance, then when you fail, you're not falling straight to murder.

Right. Right. What you're doing is you're falling straight to yell annoyance or yeah.

Yeah. If you're fighting irritation, annoyance, frustration, kind of stuff, you're, you're failing as you're raising your voice or saying something mean or something, you get what

I'm saying? Right. And then you're saying, ah, forgive me. You know, I need to fight this more. And you're fighting at the level of frustration, annoyance.

Every time you're frustrated, you're annoyed. You're saying, Lord, forgive me at that point. So like, where do you want to plot yourself on the spectrum?

You get what I'm saying? Now, if you've just allow all the frustration, annoyance and everything else, you're going to be falling over into the name calling and the screaming and stuff like that.

You know, and then if you allow the screaming and name calling is normal, you're going to be falling over into possibly breaking stuff, right?

If you allow the breaking stuff to be normal, that you're not fighting that you're just given a free pass, then you're going to be, you know, going into the, you know, um, hitting people kind of stuff.

And so, but that's the point. There's a path to get here, whether you're talking about murdering someone else, or you're talking about, um, murdering or killing yourself.

Okay. Like there's a long path to get there. Now, the path to get there with killing yourself is a path of entitlement.

There's a path of like, um, discontentment, right? The more that you feed discontentment, the more that you feed entitlement, the more that you feed like anger towards your situations, your self, like to the people around you, like in hatred towards those, like you can get to a point where you fed it and you fed it and you fed it and it's grown now.

And now you're like one step away from the end. Does that make sense? Yeah. Which makes a lot of sense.

You know, when you think about how our society behaves in general, where everyone feels entitled to everything, everyone feels as though they have to be the victim of everything.

Right. And so you have a, you have this entire society that's built around these kinds of, these kinds of things.

And it makes a lot of sense that the same exact society has such a issue with people killing themselves.

Right. So like, so then the, the issue though, then is to say that that act, if you view it objectively, right, no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

The Bible says what the Bible was saying at that point is that like it, you should react to the idea of killing yourself in anger or killing someone or, or killing someone else.

Right. Right. Or killing yourself in depression or killing someone else. You should react to that.

Like your whole Christian being should recoil against that. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah.

To where it's just like, that would be just like me kidnapping someone in a moment of weakness. That's unthinkable.

Do you get what I'm saying? Yeah. So like the biblical standard is like, if you have the fruit of the spirit in you and you're growing in your

Christian life, you're growing and putting to death the deeds of the flesh, like you should have been fighting all this stuff to where you're not just a boiling pot awaiting at the next stage.

Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. So that, so that's what we're talking about. So like what we're talking about is no murderer has eternal life abiding in you.

That should be so out of character for the Christian that it should be almost unthinkable.

Right. It should be almost unthinkable. Now, can you think, can you conceive of a scenario where a person like was hyped up on drugs, couldn't see one way or another from which, and they went that way?

Maybe. Right. Yeah. Or like the, you know, you're in some kind of situation where, um, you know, that's like a,

I mean, killing yourself might even be better than what you're about to go into, you know, like,

Hey, I'm about to die this way. It's inevitable. Like you're about to be captured by the, the

Chinese and tortured and have your fingernails pulled out or something. Yeah. Yeah. Something just,

I mean, the, no, probably, hopefully, you know, we, or anyone who's listening to this will probably never face in their life, but then

I could conceive of that as like a very, but then no one is, no one is, that's not what we're talking about.

Right. Yeah. No, not at all. So, but then everyone wants to use those kinds of situations as examples for how.

Like, you can't know, but then what I'm trying to say is just take a reasonable, like, use your brain, just, you know, think about it.

Like 99 % of the time, we're not talking about the kind of scenario where China is coming and they're going to torture you until you give up all the locations of the secret underground churches, right.

Yes. And then, you know, so, but even then. Even then it feels, it's still, you know, like there's a reason there's martyrs in the

Bible. Right. Yeah. Love not your life unto death. And like, now what if in some kind of hypothetical scenario, they have some technology that they can do that.

Yeah. And they're going to put their inject you with your truth serum and make you tell them. Yeah. Tell, yeah.

I mean, so. Or I guess like your, your plane crashes in the

Himalayas or something and you don't have any, you're going to starve to death. I guess maybe, you know,

I don't know. I'm just, I'm just throwing things out there. None of them are really that relevant to what we're, you know, like real life.

You know, for, for probably 99 .99 % of the population, none of those scenarios are probably ever going to happen.

Hopefully, you know, so. But with all that being said, you know, as sort of the, the final question

I have for you, what, what would you say to people listening? Um, how would you counsel them to, um, you know, treat people that they might interact with in their everyday life?

Uh, who are suicidal? What, what would you say? Um, uh, what would, what do you think are some of the best things to do in counseling that type of person?

Yeah. I mean, I think what you need to do is warn them about the nature of what they're doing. So, you know, you have, um, strong warning passages in the

Bible that are given to this kind of thing to where an individual. So like what we're talking about right now is a person considering suicide, right?

Yeah. Yeah. How would you counsel that person? Yeah. That person considering. So what we're not talking about is a moment of weakness scenario.

You get what I'm saying? What you're talking about is someone who wants to die because they have no hope.

Okay. So the ones who want to die because they have no hope, but then you have, um, like a complicated kind of evangelical, easy believism teaching that has taught people that it doesn't mean anything to be a

Christian. Right. And that like, if they go ahead and go with it, that they can confidently go to heaven because they prayed a prayer or walk now at some point.

And I do think that with those kinds of persons, you need to warn them about eternity, warn them about the

Lordship of Christ. Like you need to warn them about like the dangers that they're facing, like meaning, like if you're going like this, like this is a rebuke them strongly.

If they may be sounding their faith kind of moment, like you need to repent of your sins and believe the good news. And what you have is you have a lot of people who want to coddle these people into killing themselves and ultimately probably hell.

Okay. So in these moments, what you need to do is like, like, if you love them, you may be the only person in their life who is willing to tell them the truth.

And the truth is that like, if, if that there's no murderer has eternal life abiding in them and like what you're talking about, like ending it all is a profound, like insult to your maker.

Like that's what it is. It's a profound insult to your maker. You are looking at your maker and you're spitting in his face and you're despising his good gifts that he's given.

I mean, you're, you're saying that functionally that you, um, you are unwilling to trust him, right?

And unwilling to accept whatever provenance that he has given you. And you're saying that you are not enough for me.

And that like, you're basically taking the posture of Rachel, right? Give me children. Lest I die. Lord, if you don't give me what

I want, then I will not live for you. And I will not serve you because what's most important to me in my life is that you give me what

I want. You give me my idols. And if you don't give those things to me that I so desperately crave, I want nothing to do with living for you.

And like, you have to put it that way. And if you do go forward with this, you need to go forward with the confident reality that you will spend eternity suffering in hell for your rebellion against the

Lord. That's what you should expect. And that's what we should expect for you. So don't think that you're going to come to me and get me to tell you all poor baby, right?

Like, like you can callously lay aside God's commands, tell him you want nothing to do with him.

And he's going to welcome you on the other side. You should do this with the full knowledge and the full confident expectation that this is your final act of hatred and content forgotten.

And, you know, if you proceed, like, that's what you're saying. And you should know that that's what you're saying.

But there's hope for you in that if you repent of your sins and trust in the Lord and repent of all these steps, right?

Like, so all the steps that got you to the place where you're at, the entitlement, the discontentment, like the path out of this is going to be found in contentment.

And, you know, getting rid of the entitlement is going to be found in embracing contentment, learning to live as Christ and to die as Cain.

That's going to be the path out of this is to love not your life unto death, right? And to give it up for the glory of God and to accomplish his purposes and accomplish his will.

Like, that's the path out of this. But then, like, self -pity and, you know, self -loathing and, you know, woe is me.

That's going to just, you know, end in a bad place, essentially. So what about, I'm sure there would be people out there who would critique your response by saying, hey, you're just, you're telling them that they're the problem.

So then that's not going to make anyone want to not kill themselves. That's just going to make them probably want to kill themselves more.

They are the problem. So now it's like their blood is on your hands. Because you just pushed them down the path.

Yeah, well, like the issue here is just to say that, you know, those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick,

God didn't come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. And, like, in scenarios like this, in life or death scenario, it does test your basic anthropology in life.

And so, like, what are you going to do? Like, if you think that you can flatter someone into heaven, like, you're mistaken.

Like, Jesus didn't come to flatter people. Jesus came to tell them the truth. Like, he didn't come to flatter people.

And, like, you have an entire generation of people who seem to think that in order to get people to serve the Lord, you have to tell them they're special and wonderful and amazing and, you know, good looking and, you know, all that, right?

And, like, the best. But the problem is that that isn't the message of the gospel. The message of the gospel is that we're sinners.

And, like, for people to see that they're sinners, there's hope for that because Jesus came to die and forgive sinners.

Jesus didn't come to die for wonderful people, right? So you're never going to flatter someone into heaven. What you need to do is you need to tell them the truth and tell them to repent of their sins and trust in Jesus to do for them what they can't do on their own.

And, you know, that's the answer. The answer is not flattery. Okay. All right. Well, I think that's a good place for us to wrap up this conversation.

And like we said at the beginning, it's really unfortunate that we had to name this the way that we did because, unfortunately, this kind of topic really is serious.

And we're talking about some pretty heavy things that affect a lot of people, especially in a society like ours that so highly values entitlement and anger and just a lot of these things that ultimately end in violent endings.

And so it's unfortunate that we had to title this in a way that doesn't really, you know, it paints it off a little bit more like a joke in my mind than the topic actually really is.

And so that's unfortunate. And you can thank YouTube and their wonderful idea about how to protect people for that.

And, you know, like I said, this is obviously a topic that has a lot of emotional weight for a lot of people.

But then the reality is we do have to, like you said, Tim, we do have to think about these things in a biblical light.

We can't let emotions get in the way because our hearts are deceitful above all things, and they cloud our judgment.

And ultimately, we're sinful beings. And God, thankfully, has come along and told us right from wrong.

He's given us a way to know if we have the Holy Spirit. He's given us a way to know what is right and what is wrong and how to understand these things.

And so hopefully hearing us talk through these things has been really helpful for you, whether you've been the person who's wanted to kill yourself or you know someone who has wanted to or possibly even has.

Hopefully this has given you a biblical perspective to think through things and reflect on those past situations.

And ultimately, what we want to do is equip you guys to be able to handle situations like these in the future.

So the hope is that you have been equipped or at least have been given some of the, you know, at least the starting point for how to handle these kinds of situations and how to look at them biblically.

So we want to thank you guys for all the support you give us and just week in and week out talking to us, interacting with us online and giving your feedback and asking us questions about various topics that we have discussed or various topics that you would like to see us discuss.

We appreciate all that. Continue to do that. And we love getting to get in front of the camera and talk about these things for your benefit.

So really thankful for all that. And until the next episode, we'll see you. and on social media.

Please reach out to us with your questions, pushback, and potential topics for us to discuss in future episodes at BibleBashedPodcast at gmail .com

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Now, go boldly and obey the truth in the midst of a biblically illiterate world who will be perpetually offended by your every move.