Qumran and the Sovereign God, Athanasius and Context

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Did a lot of reading again today, reading from the Thanksgiving Psalms from Qumran, from Isaiah and the Psalter, and then moving on to read from Athanasius' Against the Arians regarding the Son's eternal nature. Tomorrow we will be joined by Jason Lisle, so make sure to join us live at 1pm EDT! Visit the store at https://doctrineandlife.co/

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Greetings welcome to the dividing line James white along with you on a Thursday I am the popular internet apologist joined today by the popular internet producer in the other room
00:49
And we are here with you again during the great panic of 2020 and that's exactly what it is the takeover of the technocratic totalitarians and Yeah, so here we all are some of you are working your eyeballs out
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It is strange just really briefly, I'm not gonna dive into this don't have enough time to but I Know some people are doing really really well right now
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And then I then we the new numbers out today 26 million unemployed 26 million
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Gone from record employment to record unemployment in only two months All to the benefit of one particular organization interestingly enough called the
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CCP just just just get Get used to the CCP. They are now everywhere and if you don't know what the
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CCP is You're not even in the fight yet, it's called the
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Chinese Communist Party anyway The the reality is there are there's there's some people who just work and work and work and work and Evidently, whoever delivers toilet paper to the closest
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Target store to me. It's not working because I Can go back two months on my phone and every time
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I walk over that aisle and it's completely empty. I take a picture And so I can go back and it's there there ain't no they they are they're falling down the job
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No, two ways, but but the reality is there's there's certain people doing real well And I just hope those of you who are will remember those who are not
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That's that's just gonna be what we're gonna have to do amongst believers to help each other out by the way real quick announcement tomorrow
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We have another guest going to be on the program. I know we this will be our third guest in only two weeks
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That's for us. That's pretty unusual I'm about I have as many guests as Rush Limbaugh has on which isn't a lot but I am going to be joined tomorrow by the
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Smartest guy I've ever met the smartest man. I know Who combines he's the only person
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I know who combines massive intelligence with massive humility and that is really unusual
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Really really unusual a dear brother -in -law. Dr. Jason Lyle of Biblical Science Institute will be with us tomorrow on The program and we're gonna be talking stars and stuff like that.
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I've asked him specifically. I Have a favorite star. There are hundreds of billions of stars though interesting enough.
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I was looking at something I wrote up this thing for one of the sisters at our church real special lady
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It was her birthday. And so I wrote up the longest birthday greeting ever to be posted on Facebook Well, it was for me anyways and I went through all this stuff about How big the how the distance of the planets orbit around the
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Sun and then I talked about, you know, the 600 million tons of Hydrogen being fused into helium and the core of the
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Sun and how long it takes that energy to escape and then travel out to the planet and the plants moving at this speed and the
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Sun's moving at this speed and the Galaxy's moving at this speed and then by the time I got through with all that I said, what were we talking about again?
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But so I'm I really like that kind of stuff and I broke out the scope again last week and Was was looking at stuff got up really early
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Last week and actually it's new moon was last night. So this would be a good time for viewing There's some stuff
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I need to be doing on that too. But long story short. I Took a glance
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Stared for a while at my favorite star and like I said when I was doing some reading There while we know there are hundreds of billions of stars in actuality to the naked eye
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There are only about 9 ,900 visible that you can actually pick out.
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Otherwise, you just get fuzz now, of course my naked eyes a whole lot worse There's only a couple hundred anymore but We know they're out there billions and millions of stars.
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How could you have a favorite star? Well, I do it's called Albireo look it up it is
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To our view through a telescope a Binary star actually, that's what things we talking about.
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Is it really a binary? Is it a triple quad? There are there are questions about that.
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I've asked if he has time For Jason to look a little bit more into Albireo.
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We can talk a little bit about that But we're talking about other stuff as well Saturn and Jupiter are are close by Mars right now in the mornings
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And we can take a look at that talking about God's beautiful creation out there with Jason Lyle tomorrow
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At the same time on the dividing line. So make sure to Join us at that particular point in time now today on the program
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I'm gonna be honest with you. I'm clearly enjoying The work that I'm doing in responding to The Provisionists and specifically
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Ken Wilson's dissertation. I'm enjoying it far too much. I'm enjoying it far more than they are
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Let's put it that way. I understand that yesterday a day for yesterday
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Layton Flowers posted a three hour Video three hour
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Video yes, sir. What? Oh No, I was just gonna say you're clearly in your element. I can see it
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As soon as you started digging into this, it's like this is this is something he loves
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Oh, I love you eat it like candy. Yeah, love it, and it's like You you walk into They walked right into the wall and the wall loved it
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They invited me to do it. They challenged me to do it. They they made it very clear They didn't think anybody could could put a dent in this thing and it's like, okay
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Hey, I'm getting to I'm getting to study stuff and go deeper into stuff that I've I've studied in the past But it's great to be able to go deeper get more resources and explain it to everybody else.
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It's a lot of fun By the way, there's nothing on the screen. Oh So yeah, I'm I'm enjoying it.
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I love seeing all the interconnectedness and like I said Investing this time is going to help if you listen if you take notes if you're willing to learn we are going to create a better grounded group of Apologists to deal with all sorts of subjects.
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Well, there is Mormonism atheism Islam What's been my mantra for years there are two classes
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I took in college and seminary that helped me the most in apologetics it was Greek and church history and so yeah, we're gonna
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I'm enjoying it. I I've had a few people contact us and say you're enjoying it, too
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It seems though that people who enjoy this kind of stuff are not the most talkative people They just enjoy it and go on about their business
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If you're not enjoying it, I apologize ahead of time but as it may
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I'm enjoying it and so as I work through the the dissertation primarily in its
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PDF form online actually and in fact Why don't you why don't you show this this is
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It's strange as I said, we purchased the PDF version. Dr.
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Wilson had sent the paper version and so But you know paper is paper is tough
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And so here is the online version now, it's it's not technically a
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PDF This is from the more Cybex Website Where once you purchase it, it goes into your library and so you can see you've got
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You can you know Click on chapters of stuff over here and move around and the the search engine is okay
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It will search the entire document that's somewhat helpful, but it doesn't give specific numbers
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So like if you export as a PDF and then search it that way you can actually get numbers instead of having to sort of like guesstimate which is weird, but so this is
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Right at the beginning. This is in This to me is one of the key issues.
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You'll notice over here the philosophical religious context 2000 BCE to 400 CE And you've got
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Gnosticism, Stoicism, Kikoro, Judaism including the Qumran sect, Neoplatonism and Manichaeism so since obviously the
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Assertion being made in the popularized version the book
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And being promoted in interviews with Leighton Flowers Is that Reformed Theology is
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Manichaeism? And so even to the point of calling us Manichean Christians And that kind of thing then obviously this section is extremely important.
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What is established and especially What is established in regards to the hermeneutical methodology?
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Interpretations and worldviews of these various groups because if you're gonna say that your central thesis dupied
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That's Ken Wilson's self -proclaimed definitional statement dupied d -u -p -i -e -d
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Divine unilateral Predestination of individuals eternal destinies
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Some people suggest dropping the I so it's just duped but fairly close then you're going to have to Provide that kind of argumentation.
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You're gonna have to if you're gonna say if you put Stoic Gnostic Manichaean in a single row in regards to determinism when everybody who comments on any of these areas
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Recognizes fundamental distinctions differences and category differences between different Developments and Manichaeism different kinds of Gnosticism, etc, etc then this is where your argumentations you have to be is in this particular portion of the material so one of the
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Things that I'm looking at looking at a number of things at the same time obviously is the commentaries about the
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Qumran community it is Providential to use that term it is providential that I Had the opportunity to visit
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Qumran Not too long ago and to lead a
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Bible study on the person of Christ With the background right behind me being
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Cave One from Qumran Which is just I mean,
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I really hope we get to go back there. I really do I'm hoping you know, please people start thinking this through and Drag us out of this
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This this depression, but I There there are powerful political forces that want to use this to fundamentally change the world and Unfortunately, we're all going along going.
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Okay. Yeah, we got a flatten the curve doesn't matter about the other curves, but Doesn't matter how many more lives will be lost doing it this way, but but we got to flatten the curve
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We we we've been being prepared for this I guess anyway I hope we get a chance to go back there, but it was a bucket list thing to do to be staying there right at Qumran and and to think about what man living in a place like that I live in a desert, but it's a beautiful desert.
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It's got stuff growing in it. There is It's just whoo.
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Not very far from Sodom and Gomorrah. Actually, it's just rather interesting. Anyhow Um, so I'm looking at the discussion of and remember it came up in the interview.
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We've played the interview and It came up in the interview the discussion of the
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Qumran community. That's how it's pronounced and the Idea of They're being you know, just determined by stoic
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Deterministic philosophy and things like this and so once I started digging into this
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I ran across this Discussion and it's very interesting that Wilson has a particular perspective and Anything that disagrees this perspective has already been refuted now.
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It doesn't have to explain how it's been refuted All I gotta do is put footnote in and and he uses most scholarly works would say
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Such and such as a perspective was disputed by so -and -so who pointed out this
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In Wilson's work. It's so -and -so was refuted footnote. No explanation
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No, it's just and so you can't make a judgment just by someone's name.
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Well, he was refuted I found it again. Very I've read a lot of dissertations This one is way way out of the mainstream way out of the mainstream in on many many levels
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So a discussion is taking place in regards to the perspective that you'll find in The Dead Sea Scrolls what we would call the
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Dead Sea Scrolls the the Qumran Communities library and yes, there are
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You must understand We're less than a hundred years out from the discovery of the
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Dead Sea Scrolls. What that means is there's there would be an initial flurry of Scholarship Depending on how fast things are being released for examination initial flurry of theory
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Then the next step is the analysis of these things you get synthesis
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One scholar notes this one scholar notes that hey you put those two together and there's this And then there's the debate and then you start getting some settled conclusions
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But then a next generations could come along and say hey, have you noticed this and so there's still
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Good valid important work being done in regards to what was discovered at Qumran That's now generally completely available.
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It wasn't initially but pretty much now and so Very thankfully, like I said,
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I've got you know books. I've got paper my Accordance library is thoroughly furnished with everything from Qumran thankfully and so one of the
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Statements that was That I found in the in the dissertation caught my caught my eye and so Wilson is quoting from various sources
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Including Charlesworth and Merrill and and and others who have Written on this particular subject and Let me just read you what says but Merrill tries to salvage belief in the free will and accountability
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Despite his own substantial evidence questioning his conclusion. God creates the wicked for the sole purpose of Destruction for his glory as an example to the non elect and then there are references given 1
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Q H 15 17 19 through 21 Q s now The when you when you hear 1
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Q 4 Q followed by a letter or sometimes a series of letters
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These are the designations used to identify the various scrolls Now those scrolls those sources may have names assigned to them, but they also have an
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Index because some people use different names and of course when you're reading earlier materials
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They may only have the names before the index became the popular way of identifying things so on and so forth
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Wilson is not consistent on this. For example, he his site he gets those citations, right?
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But then afterwards starts just citing 10 5 through 7 to 2 .25
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without giving the scroll So you're not even sure exactly what he's referring to at this particular point in time
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Maybe he just assumes it's the last thing he cited. I don't know. I haven't checked it out yet. Anyways, so you get the
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Get that context God creates the wicked for the sole purpose of destruction for his glory as an example to the non elect quote all aspects of creation have been formed
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Yet sad it looks like that's a Dalit not a rash given the way it's appearing on the screen to to achieve
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God's purposes With yet sad meaning to implant a tendency
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God controlling man's knowledge and plans and assigning humans Lots or destinies before birth
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Because every action of man is predestined even his thoughts and knowledge must be given by God Merrill 35
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He summarizes God has sovereignly determined without any merit on the part of any man
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To save some of them from destruction in the eschaton and from moral and spiritual bondage in the here and now
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Everything man has for which to be thankful is the result of grace This leaves the reader unprepared for Merrill's conclusion.
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God's foreknowledge preserves free will in Qumran, here's here's what we're focusing on.
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Here's the statement. This is a Wilson statement. This is not a Merrill statement in Qumran God's foreknowledge was irrelevant to humans now a
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Reference is given. We're gonna look at the reference from Qumran but once again
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One of the problems is that what we have here is Confusing theological
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Terminology on the part of Ken Wilson There's a lot to be discussed in regards to what foreknowledge is supposed to mean what it means biblically what it meant historically for knowledge is one of the
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Gnostic eons so That obviously has a completely different you have forethought you have the afterthought you have for not
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Obviously, that's a completely different context or is it we don't know we can't tell from From Wilson's statement, but I want to look at the phrase in Qumran God's foreknowledge was irrelevant to humans.
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The reference is 1 Q H 18 dot 3 dash 9
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So we're talking about cave 1 H 18 3 through 9.
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What is that? Well That Thank you very much.
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Would you please? Thank you very much, there you go the that particular program won't take over the whole computer 1
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Q H or is 1 Q H a 1 Q H B Action is 1
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Q H a just one is is the hot a oath. It is the Psalms of Thanksgiving Psalms of Thanksgiving Described in the
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Dead Sea Scrolls Index as a list of personal prayers and psalms Or some scholars have suggested may have been composed by the teacher of righteousness written in Hebrew and clearly popular amongst the
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Qumran community I Want to read some of this to you? I hope you don't mind We've been reading you stuff that you've otherwise probably would not read
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But I think it's important I'm gonna start back in 17 23 17 23, we're gonna be reading into 18 now.
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There are these are fragmentary there are holes Some parts are better than other parts.
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This isn't as in as good a shape as the Isaiah Scroll, for example So I will
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There'll be some breaks some skips some things like that But you oh my god for you plead my case for in the mystery of your wisdom.
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You have reproved me you hide the truth in its time until it's appointed time your chastisement has become joy and gladness to me and My agony my agonies have become an eternal healing and unending break
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The contempt of my enemies has become a glorious crown for me and my stumbling eternal strength
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For by your break and your glory My light has shined forth for you have caused light from darkness to shine for me
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You bring healing from my wounds for my stumbling wonderful strength and infinite space the distress of my soul
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You are my place of refuge my stronghold the rock of my strength and my fortress and you
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I take refuge from all blank for an eternal escape For you from my father
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Have known me from the womb you have set me apart and from the belly of my mother you have rendered good to me
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From the breasts of she who conceived me your compassion has been mine and the embrace of my nurse
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Blank and from my youth you have shined the inside of your judgment on me with a sure truth
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You have supported me and by your Holy Spirit. You have delighted me even until this day
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Break your righteous chastisement is with my break and the protection of your peace delivers my soul
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With my steps is abundant forgiveness and bountiful compassion when you enter into judgment with me until old age
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You shall provide for me for my father did not know me and my mother abandoned me to you for you are a father to all the children of your truth and you rejoice over them as a loving mother over her nursing child as A guardian with his embrace you provide for all your creatures
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Then there we move from a full
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Portion of the scroll to a very damaged person. Okay, but it gets better.
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It just right now I Give thanks to your Lord for you have increased without number break your name by doing wonders break without ceasing break his insight and they praised break and Then you have 18 three, which is the beginning of the citation in the dissertation
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Okay, so now we're to the we've gotten the previous context I wanted to give you a flavor of what was in the previous context.
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So 18 -3 is the plan of your heart Break on both sides so you can imagine what this looks like if you're thinking of it if you're if you're thinking about, you know
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P 45 here. Here's your breaks And so as you get farther down you're gonna have more breaks more breaks more breaks as you get farther down into a fragmented
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Ancient manuscript, which is what we're dealing with here So the plan of your heart is the first line
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And without your will it shall not be No one so there's the first Without your will it shall not be no one understands all your wisdom and The counsel of your mysteries no one observes
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What then is man? He is but dirt Break from dust.
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He was formed and to dust he returns But you give him insight into wonders such as these and make him know the counsel of your truth.
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I Am but dust and ashes. What can I plan? unless you delight in it and What can
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I consider for myself? Apart from your will How can I show myself strong unless you maintain me?
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How can I understand? Unless you have formed it for me How what can
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I speak unless you have opened my mouth and how can I reply unless you have given me insight?
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Now that's through the end of the citation. That's the whole citation from the dissertation Three through nine.
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I'm gonna read a little bit past that Behold you are chief of the gods and king of the glorious Lord of every spirit and ruler over every creature
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Apart from you. Nothing is done nor is there any knowing without your will? There is no one beside you and no one approaches you in strength
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No one can compare to your glory and as to your strength There is no price who among all the celebrated creatures of your wonder can summon the strength to stand
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It's skipped to stand before your glory So what then is he who returns to his dust that he should summon strength only for your glory?
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You have done all these things blessed Are you O Lord God of compassion and rich in mercy for you have made these things known that I might declare your wondrous works
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And not keep silent day and night Okay hymns of Thanksgiving now a couple observations be honest with me if we were to put that take the brakes out make it smooth it out a little bit, but if we were to put that and Some quotations from Isaiah The Psalter maybe
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Jeremiah into a test How many Christians? Honestly, we'll be able to tell the difference between that and what's canon scripture, honestly
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Was there was there anything there that stood out? That would make you go. Ah, see
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No, not really Not really why because what you heard is steeped in biblical language
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Steeped in biblical language now part of the scholarly discussion is well
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What were the influences upon the Qumran community and there's nothing wrong with asking those questions don't get me wrong
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But isn't there a real obvious? Primary influence, isn't it rather clear?
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This was this is 1q ha That means it was found in cave 1
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What else was found in cave 1? Well, let me let me show you what else was found in In cave 1
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Did I put that in a different No, oh I didn't. Okay, you got that This was found in cave 1 and if you recognize it, it's the great
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Isaiah scroll. In Fact I queued it up for you here Let me zoom in sorry for those of you who are listening, but Right here
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This is from Isaiah chapter 40 And it reads just like what we have in the
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Hebrew Masoretic text today. This is one of the great things about The Isaiah scroll we've talked about this before the
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Isaiah scroll clearly Part of what becomes a Masoretic tradition the
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Leviticus scroll that has now been digitally unwound And read same thing part of the
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Masoretic tradition very very clear What this proves is the text does not have to change over time
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It doesn't mean all text didn't change what it proves is the text does not of necessity have to change over the course of a thousand years and so here is
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The Isaiah scroll and here is Isaiah 40 26. Now, what why do I say that because I want you to hear
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I'm going to read and You can leave it up. I mean Well, I don't
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I don't care if people want to look at the ugly Scotsman reading that's fine, too, um,
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I just want to read a portion of scripture to you here and I want you to compare it to What we were just reading and what is on the screen and I'm gonna be reading from an
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English text Faster that way Some of what you have on this in fact all of this is on the screen right now who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand and marked off the heavens by the span and calculated the dust of the earth by measure and Weighed the mountains in a balance and the hills and a pair of scales
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Who has directed the Spirit of the Lord or as his counselor has informed him? With whom did he consult and who gave him understanding and who taught him in the path of justice and taught him knowledge and informed him of the way of understanding
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Behold the nations are like a drop from a bucket and I regard as a speck of dust on the scales
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Behold he lifts up the islands like fine dust even Lebanon is not enough to burn for its beasts enough nor its beasts enough for a burnt offering
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All the nations are as nothing before him. They are regarded by him as less than nothing and meaningless
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To whom then will you like in God? Or what likeness will you compare with him as for the idol a craftsman?
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Cassid a goldsmith plates it with gold and the silversmith fashions chains of silver He who is too impoverished for such an offering selects a tree that does not rot
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He seeks out for himself a skillful craftsman to prepare an idol that will not taught her Do you not know?
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Have you not heard? Has it not been declared to you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?
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It is he who sits above the vault of the earth and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain and spreads them out like a tent to dwell him he it is who reduces?
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Rulers to nothing who makes the judges of the earth meaningless Scarcely have them implanted scarcely have they've been sown scarcely has their stock taken root in the earth
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But he merely blows on them and they wither and the storm carries him away like stubble to whom then will you like in me?
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That I should be his equal says the Holy One and Then finish with verse 26, which is right down here right in front of me right there lift up your eyes on high and See who has created these
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Now some translations will put the word stars in the word stars doesn't appear, but that's obvious who is referring to The one who leads forth their host by number he calls them all by name
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Because of the greatness of his might and the strength of his power not one of them is missing now let me remind you as well of Another text that is vitally important.
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We can there you go. I Have read it in your hearing before let me just read because it it fits ident directly with the
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Qumran Hymn of Thanksgiving let all the earth fear Yahweh Psalm 33 8
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That all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him for he spoke and it was done he commanded and it stood fast
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Yahweh nullifies the councils of the nations He frustrates the plans of the people's the council of Yahweh stands forever the plans of his heart from generation to generation
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Direct parallelism we've gone through Psalm 33 before but let me just again point out to you. It says that Yahweh nullifies the council of the nations
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Frustrates the plans of the people's the council of Yahweh stands forever the plans of his heart from generation to generation
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That is a direct statement That the sovereignty of God is not based upon for knowledge
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It's not based upon looking down the corridors of time and acting in light of that It is his counsel and his plans that stands forever and he nullifies and frustrates
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The human counterpart to that and so when you look at Isaiah When you look at what is said there you have the one true
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God Who is the creator of all things who's accomplishing his purpose and his will?
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That's what's going on in Isaiah His purpose and his will is
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Accomplished in the created world and in the world of man as well And so as a given
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Isaiah 40 26, which is what we are looking at in the Dead Sea Scrolls in the Isaiah scroll itself
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Lift up your eyes on high and see who has created these stars these just literally these things but if you look up your
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Not gonna be doing that during the day obviously so the stars who has created these things well in many of the religions of Ancient the ancient world those were actually divine beings themselves part of a pantheon but from a biblical perspective
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This is the one true God He leads forth their host by number in other words.
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There's organization. There's purpose Perfect knowledge of the entirety because of the greatness of his might
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I'm sorry. He calls them all by name Because the greatness of his might and the strength of his power not one of them is missing in other words is out of Might we say they out of orbit out of his control this is amazing because And maybe maybe
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Jason I can talk about this tomorrow But Sagittarius a star the massive black hole at the center of our galaxy, which we've only known about for less than 20 years less than 20 years
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We have Images of How this thing can take stars that are five times the size of our own and Whip them around at over a million miles per hour whip them around at over a million miles, but that's how powerful it is
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Not one of them is missing. None of that activity is random in The scientific perspective.
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It's all random. What the scriptures telling us is none of its random when a star
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Falls into a black hole there are some fascinating images now of Stars that getting torn apart by a black hole and sucked into it.
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Do you think God didn't know about that? Oh, this is this is where you find out whether you really believe
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Whether this is where we've seriously folks Those of us who have gone through Education and stuff.
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Do you really? Really Believe this is divine or do you automatically do what biologos does and Put a filter over this that filters out certain elements of the supernatural nature of this revelation
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That's the question That's the question. Do you believe this is divine?
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Oh, yes. This is one of my Jeffrey race rebounds, by the way I just just thought I'd hold it up So you can see others
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Has that beautiful Cairo on the front? Yeah So soft so wonderful.
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Anyway, do we really believe it? Because the world says and the vast majority of teaching people teaching in Old Testament classes say that what we're reading in Isaiah Chapter 40 is just simply ancient mythology placed in Hebrew Scripture and Has nothing to do
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With what we can now discover in regards to Sagittarius a star The massive black hole the center of our galaxy and all the rest that kind of stuff personally,
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I Think a lot of cool stuff out. There is what God's going to be revealing to us in eternity.
41:44
I Think it should be awesome but Do we believe it? Do we believe it?
41:49
The point is this is a this is an awesome God who is accomplishing his purpose in the very mechanics of the created universe
42:00
So how in the world can we be so incredibly arrogant as To think that he can control stars that that he is accomplishing his purpose in black holes and Whipping massive stars around a million miles per hour but but You can't control the will of man.
42:25
He wants to he wants to save But he really can't unless man
42:32
Cooperates with him. Yeah Okay, so there are people who really really do believe that now the point of all this is
42:47
There was nothing What when it going back to the statement from the dissertation
43:04
Something going on in Twitter that I'm obviously not paying attention to Here the statement again in Qumran God's foreknowledge was irrelevant to humans and Then we had what
43:18
I read to you cited as the basis for that I don't see the connection to you
43:26
What it was talking about is yeah, I mean there's there is a strong emphasis
43:35
Upon God is God Man is made of dust and God's will is all -encompassing the plan of your heart
43:51
Without your will it shall not be done. No one understands all your wisdom The counsel of your mysteries no one observes what that is a man he is but dirt he was formed and to dust he returns
44:07
You give him insight into wonders such as these. So here's here's part of The importance of Revelation and make him know the counsel of your truth.
44:17
So there's a reason why God is revealing his truth He's accomplishing something in this world and we as his creatures are to respond to these things.
44:29
I am but dust and ashes What can I plan unless you delight in it isn't that Psalm 33
44:36
Isn't that Isaiah 40 41 42? Isn't that exactly?
44:46
What is what is said in Scripture the point is where is this coming from it's coming from Scripture This is the primary influence.
44:54
This is the primary source that is reflected in the
45:01
Thanksgiving hymns of the Qumran community Not Stoicism. Why would you look to Stoicism?
45:12
The Stoics don't have a God who does these things. They don't have personal revelation in this way Why would you even think to look there?
45:20
Oh the determinism thing and We don't want to find that in Isaiah We don't want to find that in the
45:28
Psalter. We don't find that in Jeremiah But it's there
45:35
That's the point. It's there and it's there clearly It's there compelling, but they don't believe that the provisionists don't have a divine decree.
45:46
And So you've got to look elsewhere Got to look elsewhere. There you go
45:54
So I got to show off the Isaiah scroll I got to talk about Qumran Read from that stuff and talk about God's absolute sovereignty.
46:03
It is Really really cool to get to do all that. I'm gonna close these things out.
46:08
So I've got my Bible program back Sometimes I just don't have enough room left on the screen For for my
46:14
Bible all my Bible stuff. Okay now Okay, that was 45 minutes.
46:22
That's That's not too bad I was somewhat self -controlled
46:28
You're wondering what I've got here a little flavored water Little apple cider vinegar.
46:37
Oh, yeah Us old folks need that stuff.
46:44
All right now So I go back to the dissertation and you go.
46:50
Oh, no, we're gonna change the subject. So I Go to the conclusion The conclusion now what's interesting is normally
47:01
What you're gonna present in your conclusion means that you have substantiated
47:08
The assertions you make in your conclusion in the argumentation of your dissertation itself in the body
47:17
Let me read the First portion of the
47:23
Only read the first two paragraphs of the conclusion. This is for those of you want to look these things up page 273
47:34
At least in The PDF format I didn't look at the paper didn't
47:40
I'm sure it should be the same Imagine the paper is just printed off the PDF anyways Early Christian authors half scare quote unanimously half scare quote taught relational eternal
47:58
Predetermination We're in God elected persons according to foreknowledge of their faith
48:05
Parentheses predestination parentheses in opposition to Stoic Providence and Gnostic slash
48:13
Manichean unilateral determinism That's the first sentence while teaching predestination
48:24
Christians refuted divine unilateral predetermination of individuals eternal destinies doobied
48:33
Identified in ancient Iranian religion then chronologically in the
48:39
Qumranites Gnosticism Neoplatonism and Manichaeism heretics such as Basilides Who taught
48:51
God's unilateral gift of faith were condemned of the 84?
48:59
pre -augustinian authors studied from 95 to 430 CE 50 addressed the topic
49:07
It's about 60 % by that particular those particular numbers All 50 these early
49:14
Christian authors champion traditional free choice against pagan and heretical divine unilateral
49:21
Predetermination of individuals eternal destinies see appendix 3 now, that's just the first paragraph
49:27
That means it is central in Wilson's thought to identify
49:37
What he calls doopied Which we've already demonstrated just in what you already have
49:44
Been given information to recognize the number of errors in what we just read Categorical errors the differences between Gnosticism, the
49:55
Qumran community, Manichaeism, etc So as to identify a single concept
50:04
Running through all of them is a Horrific abuse of history philosophy and theology
50:13
But it is central to the conclusion of this recitation second paragraph
50:20
Like Athanasius now that Okay, I'll comment a second like Athanasius they understood
50:28
Ephesians 1 for Kathos exlected Exlected Tom Hey moss and Alto Prakata Balaise Cosmo So that's
50:43
Ephesians 1 for they understood Ephesians 1 for just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world as only proper
50:57
Okay, this is why I like my other PDF program rather than doing it online because I'd like oh there it is
51:05
There you go. Zoom is your friend Zoom is
51:11
I need the large print even my Bible's been large print for quite some time now now We're to the large print version of the
51:18
PDF Like Athanasius they understood Ephesians 1 for just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world as only proper to a
51:28
God whose foreknowledge Affected with an a affected
51:36
Providence capital P Reference C dot a
51:44
R dot 2 dot 75 dash 77 we will come back for knowledge again put in half scare quotes a future free choice explained
51:57
God electing persons to eternal life similar to McCall's modern supervenience of truth argument concerning omniscience and free choice
52:09
They concurred with Kikoros de fato 1127 to 28 solution
52:16
God's knowledge that listen to this so all Christians Before Augustine all agreed with Kikoro you've already called
52:27
Cicero as well depends on how you pronounce your Latin retained God's I'm sorry, so the solution is
52:35
God's Knowledge is restricted to Cognition not causation
52:45
But Contra Kikoro retained God's infallible omniscient foreknowledge
52:54
This regular feed a of Traditional free choice may be a rare example of genuine
53:04
Unanimity throughout Christendom end of paragraph even identifies it as a regular feed a rule of faith the regular feed a so Obviously this is extremely important is it not yes it is
53:28
Yes, it is but what caught my attention and Why I'm addressing it today is
53:37
Is you say something about Athanasius and you're going to get my attention probably my favorite early church father
53:45
I've written papers on him I Try to let
53:53
Athanasius be Athanasius. I Try not Athanasius was not a
53:59
Reformed Baptist Unlike what some Roman Catholics tried to say years ago
54:05
But neither was he a Roman Catholic by any stretch of the imagination Remember Athanasius contramundum
54:11
Athanasius against the world Athanasius the one willing to stand up for the deity of Christ and defend the deity of Christ even when pretty much everybody else had given way including the bishop of Rome when condemned by Kicked out of his church five different times when condemned by councils
54:27
He did not take the Roman Catholic perspective on those issues of authority Scripture is sufficient above all things was his statement
54:37
So yes, and then of course Athanasius is 39th Festal letter his identification of the
54:45
Canon Scripture Of the New Testament, I mean all that stuff. You've heard me talk about Athanasius.
54:52
So when I see Athanasius mentioned My I have a question
55:01
If this is in the conclusion, then certainly there's been a discussion of Athanasius before this, right?
55:11
No, so I did this search last night,
55:16
I'll do it again here on the thing and when I look through the entirety of the book the entirety
55:29
Athanasius only appears a very very very few times
55:36
And there's Nothing that is actually there.
55:42
There's only three times not including There's two times not including the abbreviations portion at the beginning of the of the gestation
55:51
Before this there's no discussion of Athanasius's theology. So why does it appear in the conclusion in this statement?
56:01
Well, what that lead me to do? Hmm it sounds like this is saying that Athanasius understood
56:10
Ephesians 1 4 as Only proper to a God whose foreknowledge affected providence foreknowledge affected providence
56:22
Well if providence is divine action in time Then in other words when
56:29
I look up this reference C dot AR dot 2 dot 75 to 77.
56:35
Well, I'm gonna find is I'm gonna find Athanasius arguing that God Use acts on the basis of his foreknowledge as to what he can do in time.
56:49
That's what that's gonna be about, right? Is that what you'd understand that as? Well, what's
56:57
C dot AR? That's easy contra Arianas Against the
57:04
Arians and So I Did a little digging around last night and I not only have
57:17
The text in English Tracked it down in Greek as well. Yes, we want to Be able to do this.
57:25
Well Unfortunately, I Even my word processor does not have
57:34
Let's see, I would like to be able to select all please
57:42
Okay, it's not letting me do that edit Select all and there's the oh
57:49
That's not letting me do that. Oh, well, I might have to use my I have to use my reading glasses even for this.
57:56
Anyway, it was bigger on this bigger screen at home So Ready for Athanasius Hey, we've been reading we we're only moving 450 about half a millennium forward
58:15
Not a full of half a millennium, but half a millennium forward, but it could be a full Yeah, depending on where we put those hymns most of them date them in the
58:24
Before the first century before the time of Christ, of course, but they could have been composed before then So maybe even the century before that.
58:30
So yeah, we're looking right about half a half millennium because Athanasius dies 373
58:38
So, you know 470 to 500 years right right half a millennium into the future
58:46
Does that is Athanasius talking? About what it seems Ken Wilson was intimating.
58:52
He was talking about I Shall let you judge for yourself by providing the material
59:02
Athanasius writing against the Aryans What did the Aryans teach that Jesus was an exalted?
59:09
creature Highly exalted powerful through whom
59:14
God creates a but a creature Okay, for he says not before the world he what's he doing
59:24
I'm sorry he's ex he's going to be addressing particular texts especially wisdom in Proverbs 18 which
59:33
You ever talked to Jehovah's Witness you got hit with that one yourself So not much has changed over the years That's why studying church history can be very helpful for us even today in all of our apologetic work for he says not
59:46
Before the world he founded me as word or son But simply he founded me to show again as I have said that not for his own sake
59:56
But for those who are built upon him does he here also speak after the way of Proverbs for this knowing the
01:00:02
Apostle also writes Other foundation can no man lay then that is laid which is
01:00:08
Jesus Christ but let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon and It must be that the foundation should be such as the thing things built on it
01:00:18
That they may admit of being well compacted together or well built Being then the word he was not as word
01:00:27
Any such as himself who may be compacted with him for he is only begotten
01:00:33
But having become man, he has the like of him who's namely the likeness of whose flesh he has put on Therefore according to his manhood
01:00:43
He is rounded that we as precious stones may admit of building upon him and may become a temple of the
01:00:50
Holy Ghost who dwells in us and As he is a foundation and we stones built upon him
01:00:56
So again, he is a vine and we knit to him as branches Not according to the essence of the
01:01:02
Godhead for this surely is impossible But according to his manhood for the branches must be like the vine since we are like him according to the flesh
01:01:12
Moreover, since the heretics have such human notions We may suitably confute them with human resemblances contained in the very matter.
01:01:21
They urge Thus he does not say he made me a foundation Lest he might seem to be made and to have a beginning of being and they might thence find a shameless occasion of irreligion
01:01:34
But he founded me. Now what is founded is founded for the sake of the stones which are raised upon it
01:01:41
It is not a random process But a stone is first transported from the mountain and set down in the depth of the earth and while a stone is in the mountain
01:01:49
It is not yet founded But when need demands and it is transported and laid in the depths of the earth
01:01:54
Then forthwith if the stone could speak it would say he now founded me who brought me hither from the mountain
01:02:02
Therefore the Lord also did not when rounded take a beginning of existence for he was the word before that But when he put on our body which he severed and took from Mary Then he says he hath founded me as much as to say me being the word he hath enveloped in a body of earth
01:02:21
For so he is founded for our sakes taking on him What is ours that we as incorporated and compacted and bound together in him?
01:02:29
Through the likeness of the flesh may attain unto a perfect man and abide immortal and incorruptible.
01:02:35
That's the preceding section I'm giving you context which is always important to do Nor let the words before the world and before he made the earth and before the mountains were settled
01:02:47
Disturb anyone for they very well accord with founded and created for here again
01:02:53
Illusion is made the economy according to the flesh for though the grace which came to us from the
01:02:59
Savior appeared as the Apostle says just now and Has come when he sojourned among us yet This grace had been prepared even before we came into being nay before the foundation of the world and the reason why is
01:03:12
Kindly and wonderful it be seemed not that God should counsel concerning us afterwards
01:03:19
Lest he should appear ignorant of our fate the God of all then creating us by his own word and knowing our destinies better than we and Foreseeing that being made good
01:03:32
We should in the event be transgressors of the commandment and be thrust out of paradise for disobedience
01:03:39
Being loving and kind prepared beforehand in his own word by whom also he created us
01:03:47
The economy of our salvation that though by the serpents deceit we fell from him
01:03:53
We might not remain quite dead but having in the word the redemption and salvation
01:03:58
Which has a for prepared for us we might rise again and abide immortal what time he should have been created for us a beginning of the ways and He who was the firstborn of creation should become firstborn of the brethren
01:04:15
Sorry, I know it's gonna happen when I try to scroll this thing it jumps around Mm -hmm
01:04:26
Preference of me my residents a first -born great for there is firstborn of the brethren. Sorry the prince real small
01:04:32
In fact, I'm even gonna go ahead and and again should rise first fruits of the dead this
01:04:40
Paul the Blessed Apostle teaches in his writings for as Interpreting the words of the Proverbs before the world and before the earth was he thus speaks to Timothy Be partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God who has saved us and called us the holy calling not
01:04:56
According to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace Which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began but is now made manifest by the appearing of our
01:05:05
Savior Jesus Christ who hath abolished death and brought to light life and to the
01:05:11
Ephesians Blessed be God even the father of our Lord Jesus Christ who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ Jesus According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without bleep blame before him in Love having predestinated us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself
01:05:32
Next paragraph that's that's the text by the way How then has he chosen us before we came into existence?
01:05:41
But that as he says says himself in him We were represented beforehand and how it all before men were created.
01:05:50
Did he predestinate us unto adoption? But that the Son himself was founded before the world taking on him that economy
01:05:58
Which was for our sake or how as the Apostle goes on to say have we an inheritance being predestined?
01:06:05
But that the Lord himself was founded before the world in as much as he had a purpose for our sakes
01:06:11
To take on him through the flesh all the inheritance of judgment which lay against us and we henceforth were made sons in him
01:06:22
Okay, and how did we receive it before the world was when we were not yet in being but afterwards in time
01:06:30
But that in Christ was stored the grace which has reached us Wherefore also in judgment when everyone shall receive according to his conduct.
01:06:39
He says come you blessed of my father Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world
01:06:45
How then or in whom was it prepared before we came to be? save in the Lord who before the world was founded for this purpose that We as built upon him might partake as well compacted stones the life and grace which is from him.
01:06:58
So That was a long one. I know That's sections 74 75 and 76 from contra
01:07:10
Ariados Now if you missed the whole discussion of how
01:07:22
Let me pull up the direct quote again like Athanasius they understood
01:07:30
Ephesians 1 4 as Only proper to a God whose foreknowledge affected providence if you missed that that's because that's not what
01:07:40
Athanasius was discussing the context is Explaining the pre -existence of the
01:07:50
Sun in Light of such texts as the use of Proverbs describing wisdom being founded and so there is reference made to God's knowledge of future events
01:08:10
But it's all about who Jesus is It's all about his
01:08:17
Eternal nature. It's about well because that's what the argument with the Aryans was all about to begin with and so he's talking about before the foundation of the world in light of the centrality of Christ's role in that Which can only be the case if Christ is eternal and not a creature as the
01:08:40
Aryans said so the statement in the conclusion is
01:08:47
Difficult to understand as much in this dissertation is because it's very very poorly written
01:08:56
Expressed just terribly But my gut feeling is the defense
01:09:06
Would be derived from the reality that God Knew That there is going to be a need the question is is that knowledge passive or active?
01:09:22
There is no discussion of this There is no that you have the one in section 75 creating us by his own word and knowing our destinies better than we and And For seeing that being made good.
01:09:41
We should in the event be transgressors of the commandment So God knows what's going to happen
01:09:48
Better than we did because we didn't exist So my guess would be
01:09:55
That that is somehow the connection to for knowledge in some way
01:10:04
Let me Yeah, I should have gone earlier than that that would that would be my
01:10:13
My guess is to where that's coming from But That is mentioned and this is what illustrates something that I'm getting a little frustrated about and so I wanted to address it today.
01:10:27
I Started responding to this stuff many weeks ago and One of the things that I said and one of the things that just people are ignoring
01:10:40
I have people on Twitter Contacting me and saying hey How come you disagree with all these other people that said that?
01:10:48
These early church fathers believe this and you're saying they believe something else. I am when
01:10:54
I began providing Background information. What what were the provision is doing fat red herrings just get to the dissertation
01:11:03
I mean, come on, you know get the district. This will blow everything. You won't you won't have any
01:11:09
Ability to respond to any of this stuff just quit Wasting time just get the dissertation blah blah all that stuff.
01:11:20
They weren't listening They were listening. I I have no reason to believe
01:11:25
I Have no reason to believe it did not fall It just doesn't seem to be as high as it
01:11:32
Used to be I want to we're gonna have to raise this up a little bit I have no reason to believe these folks are listening to what I'm saying even now
01:11:39
Did you not hear me say? That I have said from the beginning before my eyes fell upon a single word in this book
01:11:57
Before I listened to any of the interviews the latent flower is done flowers are done with Ken Wilson, I said
01:12:09
That the first Debate and discussion on the specific topic of the
01:12:22
Sovereign will of God and how it relates to grace
01:12:30
Atonement Salvation and the identity of the elect takes place
01:12:39
Beginning right at the end of the 4th century beginning of the 5th century. I said that Augustine Dealt with one primary controversy in the beginning of his life
01:12:53
Another at the end of his life and this resulted in what? Contradiction in Augustine.
01:12:59
I pointed out I was delivering lectures on that Subject before Ken Wilson had a master's degree from Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary.
01:13:11
I was talking about this in the 90s and That's because I learned from others who taught me these things like BB Warfield who
01:13:24
Wilson quotes in The shorter book So the only
01:13:33
Evidence Upon which you can build this alleged Unanimity now, we've already poked holes in that looking at Clement looking at Diognetus we've already demonstrated that there is evidence there
01:13:53
That would have to be that wasn't that is not dealt with By Wilson in the dissertation in a meaningful fashion at all.
01:14:01
We've already already documented that so so much for the conclusion and unanimity and all that stuff, but The reality is that no one has disputed for a second that the
01:14:15
Formulation in its totality that Augustine arrives at was a first there were elements of before that Some of the places where Wilson is wrong is saying no one believed in In Faith as a gift other than heretics.
01:14:31
That's not true document that there were he's Totally blown it in regards to the concept of baptism in the people before he just does not understand the complexity of that Particular perspective and the writings before that at all.
01:14:48
There are all those types of errors, but those are ancillary to the reality that You can look at those who wrote before Augustine and Come to tentative conclusions
01:15:05
But you cannot say oh they would have stood here because the argument wasn't happening yet And then
01:15:12
I illustrated that by looking at people for example, like Tertullian Who utilize examples and language that later
01:15:24
Generations would find to be inappropriate and even heretical But we don't condemn them because they were writing and speaking
01:15:34
Before those issues were actually addressed by the church as a whole
01:15:40
So maybe you all were just bored by my presentation But you weren't listening
01:15:48
So when you come after me on Twitter and say oh Well, what about what
01:15:53
Calvin said or what about what this historian said you're assuming that I'm saying
01:15:59
That before Augustine there were people who had an Augustinian definition I've never said that what
01:16:06
I've said is there were people that had an apostolic definition such as in Clement and the epistle to Diognetus and Then there was a mixture there were those that had really non apostolic perspectives such as in the epistle of Barnabas or in the
01:16:21
Shepherd of Hermas and Then you start getting a bunch of mixtures of traditions with Irenaeus and his capitulate recapitulation theory and Tertullian going off the mountainous and and Justin with his with his
01:16:36
Every type of Greek philosophy functioning as a filter as he's reading the text of Scripture and everything else
01:16:44
To pretend and it is pretense that there is a unanimity on some kind of Dupied is heretical
01:16:57
Gnostic Manichaeism at which which was rejected by the church is just absurd on its face absurd
01:17:06
It it's so flattens out and simplifies the history that goes before the period of Augustine that it is indefensible and Yes, I will debate
01:17:23
Ken Wilson on that. I've said that Why are there people on Twitter? You'll never debate
01:17:29
Ken Wilson. You're afraid you know What I've said is once we get done with this, I don't think he'll want to debate me
01:17:37
Because I wouldn't want to have to defend something I've written Against the kind of documentation that's already been presented and there is so much more to go
01:17:48
I mean, I don't even know how it would be done to be perfectly honest with you right now the amount of time would be incredible to be able to even address half these subjects, but I can think of some really good the
01:18:03
Concluding stuff in here the conclusion in here the concluding stuff be well worth a good debate
01:18:09
Well worth it all I've said is um, have you noticed we're not flying planes around very much right now and we've had to cancel everything we were gonna be doing this spring and When I cancel something in something light or something like this, it gets priority in getting rescheduled
01:18:25
That's called having some level of integrity and there are people actually going. Oh, you're running your chicken.
01:18:31
Oh, please give me a break So I've never
01:18:36
Disputed the statement that Augustine is the first one to codify things the way that he did
01:18:42
I Have disputed the idea. There is a unanimity before him
01:18:48
There isn't because they weren't debating it. It wasn't the issue that was being addressed here in Athanasius What is he talking about?
01:19:00
What is his focus upon who Jesus is and his eternal nature against the
01:19:06
Aryans? Now you can try to derive from that some type of a concept that well, you know
01:19:12
That means that he only believed that He didn't believe that God see that that wouldn't even work either
01:19:20
Because obviously he has a much higher view even at this point in in what we're reading right here
01:19:25
Because he's talking about Christ as the one who that we are being united to before even our creation
01:19:33
So, I mean he's got a higher view than then what's being attributed here in the first place so that wouldn't even work but the point is
01:19:42
That's not what Athanasius is talking about. He is not that is not a focus that is well
01:19:48
Yeah, he's talking about the eternality of Christ but I think we can derive from this that he may have believed something like that something like this
01:20:01
That's the problem this is these words are written 50 years prior to Augustine's engagement on Those particular subjects and so to try to Make make up this universal consensus this unanimity and then attach it to some modern definition and Then say and all of them were opposed to this nebulous
01:20:33
We can put anything in here. We can put the Stokes in here. We can put all the Gnostics in here We can put all the
01:20:39
Manichaeans in here And they are all opposed to this Is where the real problem lies?
01:20:48
That's just not sustainable from the sources themselves so There you go
01:21:00
And like I said, there's just there's just every time I sit down and I get to the next paragraph
01:21:09
That's as far as I get because That sends you off into the original sources and in the original languages and doing cross -references and All the rest that kind of stuff
01:21:25
That's why I'm in no hurry And you guys you can be in all here you want.
01:21:30
Hey Leighton, you can keep cranking out three I know this is your job. This is this is what you do. I mean,
01:21:37
I'll be honest our Texas Baptist aware of the fact that the person in charge of Evangelism for Texas Baptist as he himself is described pretty much spends all of his time arguing about Calvinism It is the
01:21:53
Texas Baptist only concern Okay, rich rich verifies that that that's okay because that is the only concern of Texas Baptist Which it might be sadly
01:22:03
Who knows these days? But Leighton you late help me out here.
01:22:10
You say that when I point out that you were misciting stuff You miscited
01:22:16
Clement, which you did That this is a red herring and that I am focusing upon you rather than Ken Wilson You're the one promoting him.
01:22:28
Okay, and You I should be dealing with the dissertation. Then I start dealing with dissertation and all of a sudden you're cranking out three -hour videos
01:22:40
Who's producing the red herring here? That's what I'd like to know. I don't know and someone
01:22:51
Friend of mine who knows who he is and is probably listening right now friend of mine
01:22:59
Sent me a Outline of what he he listened to the beginning of Layton's stuff
01:23:13
Layton's three -hour thing. Oh good grief. It had to have been after this
01:23:22
You're going he really okay Here's here's here's how we
01:23:30
Put it all those quoted names. There was a bunch of Here we go.
01:23:36
Stop rolling R .C. Sproul Piper Bovink Peterson Burkoff all those quoted names wrote
01:23:45
That before Augustine synergy was the understanding of the Apostolic Fathers Now, I don't know if any of them were addressing what
01:23:56
I've addressed in Clement or what I've addressed in Diognetus or not Um But the argument is that I'm setting myself up as a new authority against those of it.
01:24:15
No, I'm not if you read what I've actually Read written or listen to I've said
01:24:21
I just clarified all that and then there was something about the debate so once again when
01:24:32
Current Commitments and those canceled by the worldwide panic are dealt with properly
01:24:46
Rescheduled etc. I will debate Ken Wilson on His assertions gladly
01:24:58
Gladly Gladly I already have more than enough to do it. The question is gonna be how do
01:25:04
I prune my material down? How do I get it down to something? It's even understandable
01:25:11
So if any of you are running around saying oh he'll never do it You are wrong and I have a hundred and seventy four debates worth to prove you're wrong
01:25:22
Be glad to do it. It'll be useful It just needs to be done the proper time and between now and then
01:25:29
I'm going to keep teaching people about how to do history and how to look at Categories and topics and read in context and be fair in argumentation
01:25:45
Is that okay? Well, even if it isn't for you, you can't stop me
01:25:51
So we're gonna keep doing it we're gonna keep doing it so there you go
01:25:58
All right. Um, yeah, I'd say that's Pretty much it.
01:26:03
Don't forget that Tomorrow we are going to be joined by Jason Lyle Biblical Science Institute.
01:26:10
We are going to be talking star stuff and Alberio and Saturn and you know, he's a presupposition list too.
01:26:20
So who knows maybe we'll get into all of that But it's always fun to talk with Jason Lyle.
01:26:26
And so that's we're gonna be doing tomorrow. I hope you'll tune in Thank you for watching.