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All right, well, good morning.
We are back.
We are back, and I said that maybe I would continue this, and let's just try.
Let's just try to continue.
But man, yesterday I was not expecting to hear the single most brain
-dead statement I've ever heard on a Gospel Coalition video, which it's a
high honor.
I mean, there's constantly dumb things said on Gospel Coalition.
But I was not expecting to hear that yesterday, and I just had to stop the video.
I just couldn't even think straight anymore.
So I figured what we'd do is we'd listen to it one more time before we got started on today's video.
But it's very bizarre.
I mean, lots of people agree with me that this is the
stupidest thing they've ever heard, but I think it's worth noting that Jen Wilkin
is very serious about this.
She says this with a completely straight face.
In fact, she even prefaces it by saying, I think we often forget, or something like that.
Like, I think we forget.
Man,
I still can't believe it.
I mean, it is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard in my entire life.
Definitely the stupidest thing I've ever heard on a Gospel Coalition video.
So let's just listen to it one more time, and then we'll just move on from it, wipe our hands clean,.
And go from there.
It's different, and you know, I think we forget, like, I have more in common with Mike
Krueger than I have with a female cat.
It is not my femaleness.
It is my defining feature, you know?
It's my humanness.
It's our shared...
All right, all right, all right.
Let's just continue.
So it was funny, too.
Like, one of the things I like to do in these videos, as you know, is I look at the people's reactions to what each other
are saying, and this face over here really says it all.
I mean, he kind of said, because what you have to do in Gospel Coalition, no matter what, no matter how crazy what the person
says to you is, you kind of have to start with an agreement.
So this guy over here starts off with, yeah, yeah, and then he kind of chuckles to himself, and then now he's looking down
like, you know, get me out of here.
Get me the heck out of here.
It's just unbelievable.
How could you take this seriously?
I mean, there's only 10 minutes left in the video, but still, I mean, if you imagine being there...
Remember, I started this whole conversation off by saying this reminds me of corporate HR, like a corporate HR
meeting where you just want to blow your own brains out, and I wasn't kidding, man.
That's how this guy feels right now.
I felt this way before.
Colin, you know, reach out to me, man.
I've been there.
I can walk you through it.
These kinds of meetings are just the absolute worst.
Just look at this face.
I mean, he knows it too.
I mean, this is the thing, like, as weak as Colin Hansen typically is, he knows that that
was the dumbest thing he's ever heard in his entire life, and he's like, well, what do I do now?
How do I recover from this?
And he's thinking it through.
I mean, it's just unbelievable.
There's just so much too.
I mean, one of the things that a lot of people have noticed various things that she has said, just kind of
in passing, and have mentioned them to me, like, you know, it's funny.
It's like, they almost, like, it's so upside down.
You know, someone said this to me.
It's so upside down, what Jen and this other lady are promoting, that they
end up not only promoting something that the Bible doesn't promote, you know, women learning deep theology, and
leading the church in their deep theology, and all this stuff.
That's not in the Bible.
In fact, it's against the Bible.
But then they also kind of mock the idea of what actually is in the women,
you know, the older women teaching the younger women to love their husbands, and to keep their household, and to love their
kids, and stuff like that.
They, Jen and the other woman, the black lady, you know, kind of, like,
laugh at that almost.
Like, yeah, it's like, I don't want to learn how to be a woman.
I don't come to you to learn how to be a woman.
I mean, that's crazy.
I just want to learn theology.
It's like, it's, when I say it's upside down, it is exactly upside down.
It's not like a little cockeyed, or anything like that, where it's like, oh, you know, some of it's right, some of it's wrong, just a little off balance.
No, it's not that it's off balance.
It's that it's upside down.
Gospel Coalition teaches in an upside down way on so many
topics.
So many topics.
It is satanic to the core.
Satanic.
When you teach the opposite of what God says, good is bad, bad is good, up is down, left is right,
that's satanic.
That's as simple as that.
I know it sounds very dramatic, or whatever.
I'm being a drama, you know, promoter, you know, whatever, but that's just the truth.
That's just the truth.
They promote female leadership, which is against the Bible, but then they also mock and laugh
what the Bible prescribes for women to be teaching each other.
It's absolutely devastating to any kind of semblance of biblical truth
in your church.
Let's continue.
...humaneness, and I think that's something we've lost sight of in the local church.
We've lost sight of the humanness of women, you know what I mean?
We don't even think of women as humans.
What planet do these people come from?
It's unbelievable.
Who are they talking about here?
Yeah, we don't even see a Christian.
We just see a woman.
In fact, we don't even see that.
We've lost sight of their humanness.
We see human woman, and we're like, oh, that's just a female.
Same as a female cat, you know what I mean?
Same as a female donkey.
I mean, it's the same thing, right?
Who the heck are they talking about?
This is just a fantasy that they've created so that they can promote this psychopath
That's what they've done.
They've created a narrative just all to promote someone who can't even teach the Bible correctly.
I mean, there's so many examples I can bring up.
You guys know them.
I'm not even going to bring them up because they're disgusting in addition to being wrong, but
all to promote her.
They created a whole false narrative where at first, well, we don't even see them as Christians.
We see them as women.
We actually don't even see them as women.
We just see them as females, female animals, essentially.
Anyway,.
We do have a men are from Mars and women are from Venus mentality a lot of times.
And then there's the underlying narrative of, well, won't someone think this is sketchy if I'm meeting with
a woman to disciple her?
And certainly there are sketchy ways you could do that, but the sheer number of non -sketchy ways that
you could also do that boggles the mind.
And I think we've lacked creative imagination or the sheer number of places where you could have that discipleship relationship
and no one question whether it's inappropriate or not.
And that's what I think I'd love to see us reclaim because when a father disciples a daughter, there's
no script running around,.
Is this appropriate or not?
Right, because he's her father.
It's all dead air, but I'm just trying to think of the most impactful way to say it.
I mean, there's no secret to this.
The Bible tells women what to do if they've got questions
at church.
This is the thing that's so amazing about this, right?
The Bible isn't like a instruction manual for each and every instance of life, right?
Like if I'm at work and someone's telling me to do something at work in a certain
way, and I don't believe it's the right way to do it.
We're not talking morally, just like, like, like, like, is it okay for me to do it the right
way instead of the way that this other person's telling me to do?
Like maybe in that particular instance, you know, that the details there, right?
There's no instruction in the book about how to do it, right?
There's a lot of things in the Bible where we have to deploy wisdom and we have, and there could be one or two
different answers.
Maybe there's a couple of different ways you could go that are all equally moral.
And we've got to employ wisdom to do like, it's not a totally exhaustive manual for life.
We all understand that, right?
Not every circumstance is in the Bible.
Now there's principles that can be applied to every circumstance, but not every single detailed circumstance
is in the Bible.
But there are some, this is what's so amazing about this.
There are some that we have a specific word on the Lord on what to do.
And this just so happens to be one of those situations.
You've got questions.
What do you do?
Go to your husband, ask your husband at home.
The woman is to be silent.
And it even gives you a why for that.
Like that's the thing.
Like this is a very, God obviously wanted us to know this.
He says, this is what women should do for church.
And here's the reason why.
And she's acting like, well, we just, we got to remember like, like
anyway, you can, you notice also she asserted her dominance a little bit there again, where she came back to the women are from Mars
men are from Venus thing.
That was something from the beginning that Colin Hanson rightly corrected her on, but she came back to it because she's
the dominant in this relationship and she wants everyone to know.
And that's why she consistently wears dark clothes.
And that's why she carries herself the way she carries herself.
She is the dominant figure.
Whenever she goes into a gospel coalition setting, she is the dominant one and
she wants you to know it.
And that's the thing.
Like, and it's true to be honest, in any gospel coalition setting setting, she's the dominant one.
She's the dominant personality.
Everything revolves around her.
No matter how many cream puffs you put around her, she's still the center of the gospel coalition universe.
It's just amazing to me, man.
It's just amazing to me.
A brother or sister are interacting with one another.
There's no script about inappropriateness.
And we have, we have, I believe in many cases, we have taken in the hyper
-sexualization of the culture and said, yep, we're going to buy into that too.
And I think if the local church can't reclaim the beauty of male -female interaction along appropriate lines, what
hope does the culture have?
And we also cannot turn a blind eye to the fact that two men meeting alone can be
every bit as inappropriate as a man and a woman meeting alone.
Do you see what she's done here?
She said, oh, we're buying into the sexual nature of the hyper -sexualization of the culture.
And in the next breath, she says, oh, by the way, all you guys can be gay together too.
All you close guys, you know, you're probably, maybe even David and Jonathan were gay.
And it, within back -to -back sentences, she did the thing that I said that she often
does in the last episode where she's like, oh yeah, women and men meeting together.
That's, there's nothing shady about that unless you make it shady.
By the way, guys, you know, if you guys meet for a drink, I don't know,
maybe, you know, you might start doing each other.
It's un -freaking -believable.
It's unbelievable how, how shameless she can be.
And she, and the way, the reason she gets away with it is because these, these cream puffs that she's
with are not going to say anything to her.
Hey, Jen, that's insane what you just said.
They're not going to do that.
I mean, Colin Hansen did push back a little bit, but he was put in his place.
He's back in the house.
It's just, it's amazing.
It's absolutely amazing.
And the thing is, yeah, I mean, I, I, you got to stop talking about it at some point, but, but yeah, this is, this
is no bueno.
This is no bueno.
This is not the kind of influence you want in your church.
It's just as simple as that.
It's not needed and it's, it's negative all the way through.
It's not even a net negative.
It's all negative.
It's negative.
And they just sit here and just, and just take it.
And that's why she knows she can say that kind of stuff.
That's why she can be shameless.
That's why she can, she could promote two competing narratives, one sentence apart,
just to make her point, just to kind of dram rod women leadership in the church into the, into the conservative
church.
And nobody will call her on it because she's talking to two cream puffs.
She's not going to talk to someone like me.
I mean, obviously me, I'm a little crazy, but like, you know, someone who will actually call her on her nonsense, someone who's
not afraid to say no to a woman, someone who's not afraid to contradict a
woman, no matter how much black she wears.
Yeah, sure.
You look like a Sith Lord, but you don't know.
We should say that.
I don't think.
It's, I don't think women should have to carry this burden around all the time that we're a particular risk category when
it comes to relationship forming.
That's a good clip right.
There.
No, don't you clip that, you son of a gun.
That's why she knows she can do that.
That's why she can simultaneously say, yes, pastors, meet with the women, do what you got to do one -on -one.
There's no risk.
And by the way, pastors, you know, you're meeting with the men, you might get, start doing gay things.
You know what I mean?
Maybe you'll start dancing together.
She can say that back to back because she knows this cream puff is going to be like, oh, wow.
That was fire.
That was totally fire.
We got to clip that one.
That's why she says that kind of stuff because she can get away with it in her circles.
That's why her circles must be destroyed at all costs.
That's why Gospel Coalition's days must be numbered at all costs.
I think in many ways, the days are already numbered.
I think they're already on the downswing, but their end cannot come fast enough.
It's just that simple.
It is just that simple.
Is there an above -reproach element that I do need to be mindful
of?
Yeah.
Don't be an idiot is what I always say.
See, I have problems not being an idiot.
Let's see if we get any practical advice here, because that would be nice.
That's what he's looking for.
He's looking for some practical advice.
She started off with don't be an idiot.
Now, the thing is, I think that don't be an idiot is probably good advice, but the thing is, if you
listen to anything that Jen says about this topic, you're being an idiot.
You're being an idiot.
Everything she says about this is idiotic.
Let's see what kind of practical advice Jen has.
Your own weaknesses, but in my experience, most men in a position of authority are not avoiding meeting with women
because they're afraid they'll accidentally have an affair.
It's because they're afraid of perception, and that's different, right?
That means you have to ask, well, then how can I mitigate the perception problem as far as possible
so that people don't look at what I'm doing and think, that's sketchy.
It matters how healthy your marriage is.
There are a lot of factors to take into consideration, but when our default setting is too dangerous.
Coming up on time, I just did very two quick ones.
It's public.
When I met with Stephen, it was all the time on campus, in public settings, at coffee shops.
When we did go to his home, if we were there for alone, it was for maybe a moment or two before somebody else.
Came over.
It wasn't like.
Oh my God.
Oh my
God.
I don't need to comment.
You see what they're promoting here.
These women are trying to trap you.
If their advice in itself doesn't strike you as trying to trap you, just listen to what
they've said already up to this point, where they're contradicting themselves, changing their minds.
Oh, I don't want to be consulted.
I want to be protected.
Oh, I don't want this.
I want that.
Oh, no, no.
I actually want the other thing.
This is the epitome of why you don't listen to women like this.
It's as simple as that.
These two women will be on it the minute something comes
out that they don't quite like.
Oh, you were alone with her?
Are you serious?
That's some clergy abuse.
It's clergy abuse.
The minute one of their enemies uses this advice and then meets for coffee or whatever,
and then nothing happens with that person, but maybe there's some other issue over here where there's
accusations and stuff.
They're going to believe the woman automatically.
This is the little setup that they have here.
They get you alone with the woman, and then your testimony doesn't matter.
That's the scam.
They will run it on literally anybody.
They will run it on Kruger.
They'll run it on Colin Hansen.
These two guys think that they're probably safe now.
No, they're not safe.
They're shameless.
They're ruthless.
They do not care.
The thing is, they have no power unless you give it to them, unless you give it to them.
This is the thing.
In fact, if anything, Kruger and Colin Hansen are prime targets for this, because they'll have no authority over me.
They can do nothing to me, because they don't influence my life in any way, and I don't listen to their stupid advice.
They're setting you up.
They are setting you up.
That's the facts.
It's a scam.
It's a trap.
Amy Byrd ran the same scam.
All the abuse -informed, trauma -informed people are running the same scam as well.
Trust me.
I'm from Brooklyn.
I know a scam when I see one.
Long, drawn -out conversations, but then also something I do is when I have relationships with men, and I have quite a few
pastors and men in my life, I'm oftentimes group texting with their wife.
So I'll text the pastor and the wife, and usually the wife just stops texting, then she doesn't want to be a part of the conversation anymore, and
she trusts me with her husband.
So it's like, you're gonna be respectful, but that's not the goal here.
My goal is to grow in Christ and is to get wisdom from my brother, and I feel like wives,.
And they understand that.
We acknowledge it as a factor, but we don't make it the standard.
And there are all sorts of other ways where it can go wrong, not just with an older man, with a younger woman, all
sorts of different other ways as well.
People are crazy.
Well, because they're people, not because they're men and women, because they're people.
Let's close by any other positive examples.
Just throw out the book of Proverbs.
Just.
Do it.
You might as well just chuck it out the window.
Throw it out.
Chuck it out the window.
We're all brothers and sisters now.
None of that applies to us.
So just chuck it out the window.
It's not important.
It's okay.
You don't have to worry about it anymore.
Just don't be stupid.
Remember that you would have no problem going to your...
Ladies, you would have no problem having dinner with your father, right?
I mean, you would have no problem with that.
Why is that...
What's your name?
Corey.
Corey, sister soldier over there.
Why would you only be alone with your pastor for a few minutes before someone came home?
You would never do that with your father, right?
You want to get retarded?
Let's get retarded.
So you know what?
You know what?
I mean, most girls, my sister, for example, my sister,
sometimes she visits my father.
Yeah, that's true.
Sometimes she brings her daughter, visits my father over a weekend.
And you know what?
My sister sleeps over at my father's house.
She's got her own room and everything.
It's no big deal.
Yeah, I mean, is it your pastor, your father?
Yeah, totally.
So let's just have some sleepovers too.
Oh yeah, I've been to dinner.
I hug my sister sometimes.
Well, let's just do hugs all the time.
Private hugs too.
I visit my sister at her house and before I leave, I give her a nice hug.
Let's just do the same thing.
Same thing.
It's not weird.
What do you think?
It's weird?
Oh, I mean, but also forget fathers for a second.
I mean, you know, maybe that's a unique relationship.
Like, you know, I've invited my sister to my house before too.
Yeah, it's totally, yeah.
And we're even on the same group text with my wife.
Yeah, yeah.
It's just normal.
It's totally normal.
Like, why don't we just have sleepovers over at my house?
Yeah, why not?
We're brothers and sisters, aren't we?
I mean, it's totally normal.
You know, it's funny because in the Christian nationalism conversations that we've been having, you know,
there's a famous line that, I don't know who coined it, but Stephen Wolf talks about it all the time,
about how grace doesn't destroy nature.
Grace doesn't destroy nature.
And it seems to me, I just thought of this just now, so maybe I'm off base, but,
you know, it seems to me that that conversation fits really nicely here as
well.
Okay.
We've got this grace of having the family of God and things like that, but that does not mean
that, it doesn't mean that it replaces or destroys the
natural world, the way the world naturally is, the way it's appropriate for, you
know, someone to spend a weekend at their father's house, their biological
father, but not appropriate for a woman to spend the weekend at, you know, her pastor's
house.
Like, there's nothing in the whole idea of the church being the family of God that
would say that that has to be appropriate.
Like, you can't just be smart when you want to be.
And so if they're going to use that as the example, then why is Corey telling me, well, they can only do it in public.
They can only have dinner in public, obviously.
I mean, you don't want to be stupid.
Well, but that's already stupid.
That's the thing.
Like, you're acting like that's smart.
No, that's stupid also.
That's stupid also.
Because if you're going to go with the retarded thing of, oh, we're all family.
Like, why can't they just have dinner at his house?
Why not?
Because that's what daughters do.
That's what brothers and sisters do.
I could invite my sister to my house, even if my wife wasn't there, and have dinner with her, and it'd be no problem.
You guys get it.
Where you see this working well.
I'll give you a positive example.
Historically, I mean, and I'm going to talk about this in my session this afternoon, and this is well known.
Everyone at this table knows it.
But when you think about what's a good example of a pastor showing great relations with women historically in a way that he knows their
names, he knows their ministries, he encourages them.
And I have to say the Apostle Paul is that.
Now, that sounds crazy because people are like, whoa, not Paul.
Paul's the problem, right?
Yeah, exactly.
Well, you got to look at the whole picture of Paul, right?
And the passage, of course, I'll be looking at this afternoon is Romans 16 and the final greetings where
it's as long as final greeting, which is probably the reason it skipped over most because he has so many names, but nearly
half the names are female.
And not only are they female names, but he mentions their involvement in ministry, mentions his relationship with them, mentions
how he'd been blessed by them, even at one point saying that she was a mother to me, to one of the
women in the list, and talks about how they're hosting churches in their homes, how they're doing this, how they're doing that.
So here's a guy who clearly has healthy, positive relationships with women, knows their names, encourages them, and even
praises them in this letter.
That's not everything that can be said about Paul.
And at the same time, it's the same.
Paul who said women are to be silent.
Keep it down at church.
You got questions.
You got your husband.
It's the same Paul.
You can't just be smart when you want to be.
It just boggles the mind.
It is really the stereotypical, proverbial
buffet where you select the items you want, and you leave the items you don't.
But the whole buffet is the Bible.
That's a Bible buffet.
That's a video game, by the way.
Bible buffet.
A weird video game.
That's what it is.
You pick, and you choose, and you leave, and you don't talk about, you downplay, you upplay.
It is unbelievable.
Unbelievable that he'll invoke Paul here.
Unbelievable.
Especially in this context.
The way a pastor can do their work.
But man, if a pastor did one thing, know the women's names, know what ministry they're doing, and encourage them
in their ministries, wow, that would be a milestone.
If you just did that, you would find such a healthy response amongst the women in your church
if you just knew them, knew what their ministries were, and encouraged them in their ministries.
I think you'd find a lot of things.
And the pastors know my wife's name.
They know that she homeschools the children, teaches the children.
They know that, you know, I mean, that's what we're talking about here.
Your pastor should know your name.
Yeah, your pastor should know the women's names.
This is the old patented A .D. Robles.
I patented this.
This is my thing.
You might not know that inside joke, but whatever.
This is the Mahton Bailey.
The Mahton Bailey stuff.
Yeah, your pastor should know your name.
Yeah, your pastor should know you have kids and what you do with your kids and stuff.
That's not what we're talking about here, though.
It's just not what we're talking about here.
We're talking about your pastor taking your wife to dinner when she has freaking questions.
That's what we're talking about here.
Your pastor going on a date with your wife to teach her deep theology.
We're talking about my wife being a leader in the church, a visible mother in the church.
That's what we're talking about.
It's just like, you know, it makes me it makes me a little angry because it's just like because I actually don't I don't happen to
believe these people are low IQ, including Jen.
You know, I said the comment about the cat earlier, you know, whatever.
These people are deceptive and subversive, and they're doing it
intentionally.
They're intentionally subverting.
Colin knows full well that the same Paul that he's talking about here would not allow this
entire thing to be happening.
He would lose his mind if he saw what these two women were saying and in the
forum that they were saying it.
He would lose his mind.
That's what Paul would do.
He would lose his mind and he wouldn't do it because we
know about Paul.
He wouldn't do it in person.
He would write a letter and it would be a scathing letter about
this ridiculous video.
He knows about that, but he's just choosing not to right now
because they've got an agenda.
They've got to elevate women.
It's brutal, man.
This is brutal.
It should fall into place.
At ARC in DC, the BDA relayed us this really well.
He meets with the older women in his church who all have some type of responsibility within the church.
And so he's oftentimes discipling them to disciple.
And so there's a real relationship of a pastor knowing the concerns of the woman in his church, knowing it from the woman's perspective, having
that trusted relationship.
So if something happens, he's quickly able to adjust or to move.
So I think him and his elder board do a really good job of highlighting women, making sure that they're identified in the church, training them
up, and then making sure that they can serve within the church and outside of the.
Church with their gifts.
I've challenged the guys at the church that I've served at.
I'll say, hey, name three people who've had the greatest impact on your faith.
And typically they name all men.
And then I'll just say, it's not wrong.
It's not a wrong answer.
But I'll say, what if you had a woman on that list and not your mom?
Who would you put?
And then say, if you don't know the answer to that, why don't you try to figure out the answer to that?
And there's been a lot of fruit that's come from that.
I think a lot of it is just we haven't even allowed ourselves to conceive of what it would like to have a mother in the faith, if you're
a son in the church, or what it would look like to operate as brothers and sisters.
Pick a woman that's impacted your faith, but not your mom.
Not your mom, though.
Do you even need to comment on stuff like that?
There's just so much.
There's so much here.
There's so much here that will destroy the body of Christ if you imbibe it.
This woman should not be allowed next to a microphone in the respectable conservative church.
She should not be allowed near a pen or a computer.
That's what would be good for her.
You care about Jen Wilkins' soul, you should not allow her near any means of communication.
That's the bottom
line.
It's all fun and games, right?
But I know full well that this woman is destroying churches right now.
Completely.
Sisters instead of as two risk categories.
We have seen a lot of fruit from this in my local church.
We found out that it was a more beautiful story to tell than the story
that is told in a lot of local churches.
It's been a church that I have been thrilled to raise my children in, because that's what I
want them to see.
The church is actually the true and better family.
If you had a great nuclear family, it's what that whispered toward.
If you had a terrible nuclear family, it's what you knew you needed as a result.
That happens when we function as mothers and fathers and brothers and sisters.
It's the more beautiful story.
Would those names be older women in the congregation or authors?
It could be either.
I would say all of us know that we have been mentored from afar, and we've been mentored in person.
I don't think we have to feel like it's wrong.
That Augustine shaped your faith.
No one's saying that's terrible.
There will always be people from afar, and there should also be people who are embodied, too.
I like ending there.
Thank you, guys, for talking about partners in ministry, how men and women must labor together for
the good of the church.
Normally when I've done these panels over the years at The Gospel Coalition, it's John Piper who always hates my titles.
Jen, now you've joined the list.
Correct my questions and titles.
I appreciate it.
Thanks, guys, for venturing into some difficult ground, but trust it's been a helpful conversation for others as it has
been for me.
Thank you.
Thanks for listening to today's—.
Well, that's that.
Yeah, I was trying to power through the last nine minutes or whatever, but there it is,
and let us never speak of it again.
I hope you found this helpful.
God bless.