Debate: Baptism Does Not Save Men (Baptist vs. Lutheran)

This is Apologetics Live. To answer your questions, your host of Striving for Eternity, Andrew Rappaport.

Debate Format, Introductions, and Debate Topic

All right, we are live, Apologetics Live. Glad you are with us. We're going to have a little bit of a different show here tonight. This will be a live debate we are going to be having, and this is between, well, we're going to have the topic.

I should start with that. The topic tonight will be Baptism Does Not Save Men. The person on the pro side of this debate will be Ken Cook. He is a Baptist, and on the negative side will be Rob. He is a Lutheran, so there's differing views that we have there.

This is part of Striving for Eternity. You can hear this on podcast on the Christian Podcast Community. Go there to ChristianPodcastCommunity .org to check out all of our podcasts that we have. So real quick, I'm going to bring both Ken and Rob in so that they could quickly introduce themselves, and then we're going to start.

The way we're going to do this, as these guys already know because they gave me the times, we're going to do 15-minute openings for each of them. We're going to do a 10-minute rebuttal for each. Obviously, the opening, we're going to start with Ken, and then we'll do the rebuttal.

We'll start with Ken, then we do the cross-examination, 10 minutes each. We're going to do a 5-minute rebuttal for each, and then a 10-minute cross-examination, and then 10-minute closing arguments.

So that's going to be the format for this debate. If Rob is doing too well in this debate, I'll just cut his time in half. Being a Baptist, I have oh, wait, that's not the way it's supposed to work, Rob?

Oh, I'm sorry. No, we'll be fair. We've got to try to get everyone laughing before the debate starts, right? So, Ken, why don't you introduce yourself first, and then Rob after that.

Perfect. My name is Ken Cook. I'm here in Portland, Oregon. I am a Reformed Baptist, and I'm very excited about tonight's debate. I want to thank especially my wife, who's at home with our five children.

That enabled me to be here in a nice, quiet place tonight. You're really going to wear that hat, huh? Oh, yeah.

Rob, go ahead and introduce yourself. Hi, I'm Rob Barnhart. I'm a confessional Lutheran. There is a distinction there, Andrew. Not all Lutherans, sadly, are confessional. I'm a longtime listener of Striving for the Eternity Ministries and Conguard .org.

That's how I know about Andrew Redford, Matt Slick. Just recently met Kendall Cook. I do want to kindly just ask those people that if you are interested in this debate and you have got some kind of enjoyment out of it, if you wouldn't mind at least donating $5 to Conguard .org, I would really appreciate that.

Matt Slick, I view him as one of my fathers of the faith. He's taught me a lot. He's taught me how to think logically, how to try to examine scriptures. And I hope to share what I read from scripture with all of you.

I jokingly say, only half-jokingly, that Matt has trained more pastors than any seminary. Because every pastor I know, when they're in seminary, found CARM. And that's where they're like, oh, yeah, I was going to CARM.

So I'm convinced Matt has actually trained more pastors than any seminary.

Matt really came into my life at a crucial time. I was really, really young in the faith. I was pretty much in an empty evangelical church that didn't teach any truth, just kind of basics. And Matt came along and just opened my eyes and made me want to dig deeper.

Him and Jeff Durbin basically started me down that path.

You know, Matt went to a Lutheran seminary. You should follow Matt and come out of that. I mean, yeah, at least he's Presbyterian going to a Calvary chapel. So he's still confused, but he's on his way to Baptist.

I'm convinced of it. All right. So we're going to get started. Anyone who watches regularly knows we like to have fun. And, folks, I should, before we get started, just give a schedule for the next couple weeks.

This week is a live debate, so we're not going to have people joining. If you want to ask questions, if there's time at the end, just make sure that for those who are watching live, just put a capital Q and a colon so that I spot that and know that's a question that you actually want asked if there's time for questions.

Next week, Eli is going to come on. He recently did a debate on the Gospel Truth channel, and we're going to review that debate. The following week, I will be in California for Truth Matters Conference, so we will not have a show.

But when we return, I will basically play the debate I had on Gospel Truth, and we're going to do a review of that. And so for the reviews, we're going to allow people to come on in and ask any questions, but we're going to probably gear toward those debates.

We do have some other guest apologists that will be coming in in the next few weeks working on that, so I'm not going to reveal the names yet. So with that….

Andrew, real quick, how's Matt doing?

Matt is moving, so he's trying to If you watch when he does his live show, you're seeing that the room he's in has less and less stuff every day. That's how I could tell how his move is going. He should be moving.

I know the house was put up for sale, and I think that I forget if it's I think it's like next week or two. Ken, do you know the

The house was already put up for sale, so as soon as it sells, they're bouncing.

Okay, so are they waiting until it sells before they bounce? It's up in the air, from what I've heard. It keeps changing, but be praying for them. This is for anyone who knows his wife's situation, it is not going to be easy to do this drive from Idaho down to Arizona, so just be praying for them through all this.

It's going to be a lot on Matt, so yeah, appreciate that. All right, so Ken, I'm going to put Rob in the background there. Ken, it is for you to start. Go.

Ken Cook's Opening Statement: Baptism Does Not Save Men

All right, well, thank you all for coming. Welcome to this very important debate tonight. The thesis for tonight's debate is baptism does not save men, and as a Baptist, I will be taking the affirmative to that perspective.

While there are several areas that are often in view within a baptism debate, we are tonight not debating the baptism of infants or sprinkling versus immersion, and to the best of my ability, I will remain on the subject of the effects of baptism.

I would like to start tonight out with a very popular Luther quote. Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. Tonight, I will cite both Scripture and reason, and I hope that we will not hear my opponent decry logic, because we know logic flows from Christ, as all good things do.

My brother tonight holds the Lutheran view of baptismal regeneration that is unique from the Christian Church or Church of Christ view and should be defined properly by what we see within the Book of Concord.

Again, to the best of my ability, I will cite either known Lutheran scholars or the Book of Concord itself. Luther's larger catechism says this, Faith clings to water, and it believes to be baptism, in which there is sheer salvation and life, not through the water, as we have sufficiently stated, but through its incorporation with God's Word and the ordinance and the joining of God's name to it.

The debate tonight is also not about justification by faith alone, because both myself and my brother confess this biblical truth. We rather are discussing the act of water baptism and what it accomplishes.

The Baptist view is that baptism is the immersion in water of a believer in Jesus Christ, performed once as the initiation of such a believer into a community of believers, namely the Church. This baptism signifies the believer's confidence that Christ's work was complete for his forgiveness and justification and indicates his desire for unity within the Church, Christ's community of the New Covenant, purchased at the price of his blood.

No saving efficacy adheres to either the form or the matter itself. The person baptized has no scriptural warrant to believe that in baptism, Christ's saving activity is initiated, augmented, or completed.

In examining this question, it's critical to define our terms. As such, I'm going to define salvation, or saves, as the following. To be saved, as everyone well knows, is nothing else than to be delivered from sin, death, and the devil, to enter into Christ's kingdom, and to live with Christ forever.

That is according to Luther and the larger catechism. As a Reformed Baptist, I would point you to Romans 8 .28 -30, the golden chain of redemption, that says, just as Martin Luther connects rightly being delivered from sin with living with Christ forever.

Salvation is, by definition, justification, sanctification, and the glorification of men. We have no biblical warrant to separate our justification from our glorification in heaven. As Jesus said in John 6,.

For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but to do the will of the one who sent me. And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should lose not one person of everyone he has given to me, but raise them all up on the last day.

For this is the will of my Father, for everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him, to have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise them up on the last day.

An important question for my Lutheran friend to answer tonight is, does baptism actually save or potentially save? Robert Cole, the Professor Emeritus of Systematic Theology at Concordia Seminary St. Louis, who's also been a contributor to major editions of the Book of Concord, says the following,.

Scripture does not tell us how it is possible that some run away in defiance of God, who wants all to be saved. God's word in baptismal form lays down the foundation of a relationship that he wants to last forever.

Even Luther says, not all who are baptized receive the benefit of salvation. He says this in the larger catechism,. For by suffering the water to be poured upon you, you have not yet received baptism in such a manner that it benefits you anything, but it becomes beneficial to you if you yourself have baptized with the thought that it is according to God's command and ordinance, and besides in God's name, in order that you may receive in the water the promised salvation.

Now, the fist cannot do it, nor the body, but the heart must believe it. Luther clearly tells us, faith must be present for baptism to be efficacious. So far as I can tell, there is a division between the Book of Concord definition of salvation, which is living forever with Christ, and the definition of salvation that baptism brings within Lutheran theology.

So tonight, Rob, if a person can be baptized and baptism is efficacious in justifying the soul, how is it that those people can fail to receive glorification? If there are those who will not be glorified, how can you then say we are or were saved by baptism?

With the definition and scope of baptism established, we ought to then ask, what does baptism do? In Acts 10, 47 and 48, we hear, Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have, and he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ?

This text and the surrounding text shows a clear connection of baptism being added to the church. In fact, there is no disagreement in our traditions that baptism is the final ordinance by which one is admitted to the church and thus the Lord's table, that is, to be a member of the new covenant community.

Now, this new covenant is very different from the old. It is, in fact, the better covenant. Robert Kolb again says this covenant defines the baptized as God's children and as innocent. The book of Hebrews says about the new covenant, I will put my laws in their minds and I will inscribe it upon their hearts, and I will be their God and they will be my people.

And there will be no need for each one to teach his countrymen or each one to teach his brother, saying, Know the Lord, since they will all know me from the leadest to the greatest. For I will be merciful towards their evil deeds and I will remember their sins no more.

And so he, Christ, is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the internal inheritance as he has promised, since he died to set them free from the violations committed under the first covenant.

The new covenant is a perfect covenant, and all who are members thereof, via the circumcision of their hearts, will be saved. Baptism, then, is an ordinance that gives a sign of this internal reality.

This is why the church is only to baptize those who confess Christ as Lord. Romans 8 .8 says that those who are in the flesh cannot please God. In the Lutheran confessional traditions, we see that there is a normalizing process of catechetical instruction for adults, and then once that instruction, that sometimes lasts as much as 24 weeks, is completed, the convert is baptized.

In fact, this process is even recorded by Augustine in his catechism, which contains the instructions for baptism at the end of the catechetical process. So, the obvious question here is, do those who hate God submit to catechism as a normal practice?

Does not catechism please God? Now, of course, we can say that there are selfish reasons for such things, for the human heart is a factory of wickedness, but I believe that truthfully, we can say that the spiritual nature of instruction in the catechism requires one to be spiritually enlightened.

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2 .14 that the unbeliever does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

The unconverted can no more understand the Trinity than a dog can sing the ABCs. So imagine with me, if you will, that we preach the law and the gospel to a man, and he in contrition begins attending a Lutheran church, or maybe even a Wisconsin Synod Lutheran church.

Are we to say that he is unconverted into his baptism? Are we to say that he is still in his sin? Of course not. Paul says in Romans 10, starting in verse 13, for everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

And how can they call on the one whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in the one whom they have not heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching to them? And how are they to preach unless they are sent?

As it is written, how timely is the arrival of those who proclaim the good news. But not all have obeyed the good news, for Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed, I report. And most importantly, here in verse 17, he says this,.

Consequently, faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard through the preached word of Christ. Preaching is the means of grace that God uses in salvation. My Lutheran friend will tell you that in baptism we have the water joined with the word that brings salvation.

The problem is that the scriptures nowhere teach this, saying the Trinitarian formula is not the same thing as preaching the gospel. If, in fact, that is so, I would like to challenge you, Rob, to show me something tonight.

I challenge you to show me one instance in the entire book of Acts where conversion occurs without preaching. Show me one baptism that wasn't preceded by teaching. You won't find it. Men are saved by the preaching of the gospel.

Paul clearly teaches throughout the book of Acts that we believe to be saved. Confer with Acts 13, 39, and 48, Acts 14, 27, Acts 15, 1, and 2, 16, 14, and 15, 16, 30, and 31. In fact, if we were to ask Paul and Silas, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

They would reply, believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. Peter was clear in Acts 10. Who can deny them the waters of baptism as they already had the Holy Spirit? We see in Acts 8, 12, when they believed Philip as he was proclaiming the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they began to be baptized.

Even the apostle Paul himself multiple times recounted how it was Christ who appeared and preached to him. Jesus, in the same body in which he was crucified, came to Paul and declared, I am Jesus. Paul knew the claims of the way and saw the risen Lord before him.

Prior to Paul's baptism, Ananias, in Acts 9, calls Paul his brother. Finally, if tonight my brother repeatedly cites the context of a plain text reading of the scriptures, for example, he'll say, baptism saves in 1 Peter 3 .21.

I ask you to consider the text of James 2 .24, which says, you see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. Because of the great problem that this hermeneutic brings, this is what Martin Luther said about the book of James.

I maintain that some Jew who wrote it probably heard about the Christian people, but never encountered any. Since he heard that Christians place great weight on faith in Christ, he thought, wait a minute, I'll oppose them and urge works alone.

This he did. Both the Lutheran and Reformed view of faith alone is opposed to this text's, quote, plain reading. So tonight you will see that the scriptures are clear. God saves through preaching. It is via preaching that men enter into faith and repentance.

Thank you very much.

Let me reset the timer here for Rob. All right, Rob, you have 15 minutes. Go ahead.

Rob Barnhart's Opening Statement: Baptism Saves Through Word, Faith, and the Holy Spirit

Thank you for having me here. Thank you to Kendall Cook for your opening salvo. I'm going to get right into it. The question is, the thesis of the day, baptism does not save men. My opponent is in the affirmative.

He is trying to affirm a negative, which is a much higher bar. But he chose that himself, so keep that in mind. So basically I appreciate what his approach is here, but I'm going to let the Word of God speak, not reason, not anything else.

I submit my reason to Scripture. Okay. 1 Peter 3, verse 18,. For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, being made alive in the Spirit, which he went proclaiming to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey.

When God's patience weighed in the days of Noah. Okay. First, in order to exegete this text right away, Peter calls to mind a time of water, and he brings up the fact that God made a promise to Noah. If you build this ark, I will save you.

In the meantime, I will be sending waters to wash away the sin of the world. This is why he calls our minds to the days of Noah, because it's about to be factored into his argument. While the ark was being prepared, which a few, that is eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

Some translations actually say saved through the water. Once he says this, he then goes in to say, Baptism, which corresponds to this act of God, where he has brought eight persons safely through the water, washing away sin.

Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you. This directly contradicts my opponent's position. This is why he must separate the spirit and the water. This must be why. He must assume his position outside of the scriptures, his tradition of that it's only an act of obedience.

He didn't demonstrate that. He didn't even try to demonstrate that. As a matter of fact, he spent most of his time either quoting small snippets of the large catechism or other such things. I'm here to discuss the word.

And not as a removal of dirt. So Peter anticipates people's understanding that the watering of itself will save. He said, no, it's not a bath. It's not anything of such, but it's an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Christ.

So in Baptists, we're directly connected with the resurrection of Christ. We're given a good conscience. How can you have a good conscience if it's your work? Only you can have a good conscience through the atonement of Christ.

Romans six. Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ were baptized into his death? We, like those in the flood, died in baptism. We were buried with him by baptism into this death.

And why did he do this? In order to raise us from the dead. So we may to walk in the newness of life. This is regeneration. So regeneration is directly linked with baptism. For if we've been united in the death like his, we shall certainly be united with him at a resurrection like his.

Here we see that we will be raised in the same way he was raised on the great resurrection. We know that our old soul was where the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

For one who has died, and we did die in baptism, we have been set free from such sin. The condemnation, the bondage of our will, this clear proclamation of scripture, set free, is clearly a salvific way of speaking about baptism.

Titus, but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us. He saved us. Not us saving ourselves. He saved us. Not because of works done by us, but according to his own mercy.

By how? By washing of regeneration, renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Christ Jesus. So that being justified, we might, by his grace, we might become hairs, directly linking us with our father Abraham, here in baptism.

According to the hope of eternal life. Boom. Okay? So clearly this is what scripture says about baptism. And it goes on and on and on and on. My opponent says that he wants to know, does baptism actually save or does it possibly save?

And he appealed to Romans 8, and his understanding of Romans 8 and what it says, which goes far beyond what the text says. The text simply says that we are justified. Scripture also clearly says that we can fall from grace.

How? Faith is the key. You do not get into heaven simply because Christ died for you. This is why all Calvinists know that prior to their conversion to faith, they are not Christians. Even though they would say rightly because they are the elect that Christ died for them.

So what changes? It's the faith. The faith enables them to receive the benefits. Likewise, faith to Lutherans is the same thing. Faith is what gets you into heaven. And baptism is one means that gives you faith.

Acts 22. Ananias, speaking to Paul, says, Rise, be baptized, wash away your sins. Baptism actually did something. And it was something that was done. It was not just an empty thing. It was indicating something that had already happened.

It's actually doing something currently. And he does this through calling on Christ's name in the baptism. Clearly, this is speaking of Christ's authority in baptism, which Christ is the one that instituted baptism in Matthew 22.

Go, therefore, baptizing all of your disciples, teaching them as I taught you. Christ commands something. It cannot be an empty thing. It must be something beyond that. And scripture clearly teaches that baptism is not just an act of obedience.

It is something so much more. It's something that God does to you. Not something you do for God. You have been filled in him who is the head of all rule and authority. Colossians 2, chapter 2, verses 10 through 14.

With a circumcision made without hands. There it is again. Without hands. By putting off the body of flesh. By the circumcision of Christ. There it is. Directly linking Christ with the baptism. That is Christ does the work.

The pastor. Having been buried with him. In the baptism. Again, this directly links us back to Romans 6. When he says, in Christ. In which you were also raised with him. How? Through faith. Right there.

Baptism. Faith. And the powerful working of God who raised him from the dead. And you were dead. This is, again, scripture clear. So my opponent. He says we're only saved by the preaching of the gospel.

I say yes and amen. However, the preaching of the gospel is also found in baptism. It is God's word. We are not Roman Catholics. We do not believe that baptism is the only means of salvation. It is absolutely required of the Christian in order to be saved.

We do not believe this. We believe that baptism is one means in which Christ uses to give those faith. In his one and only son, Christ Jesus. For the forgiveness of their sins. Ephesians 5. Husbands, love your wives as Christ has loved the church.

That would be all believers. Gave himself up for her so he might sanctify her. Having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word. You see water, word. The first Corinthians chapter 6 verse 11.

And such were some of you, but you were washed. You were sanctified. You were justified. In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. How? By the spirit of our God. Baptism with the spirit. I do not say that the baptism, that the Holy Spirit cannot come to someone outside of the water and word.

Which is what we know as baptism. But it is certainly, if everybody were to properly understand Lutheran position of baptism. What I would say is what scripture clearly teaches about baptism. Then that would be the normative means in which all would come to salvation.

So asking a question, does it actually save or does it possibly save? Assume certain elements of the Tulum. Lutherans do not agree with our Reformed brothers on the Tulum. It actually does save because scripture clearly says it does.

What you do with the faith you're given, what you do with your salvation that you're given is entirely up to you. Christ will continue working on your faith in the time that you're alive. Christ will not fail to save you.

However, if you do fall away, it is directly a result of your choice. It's because you have forgotten God's promises. You do not desire God's promises. They are not for you. You do not want them. You think you know better.

We see time and time again that God does give those who desire that which harms them what they want. After a long time. We see this in Pharaoh. He gave the Pharaoh many, many, many, many times to turn back and to flee to God.

Pharaoh did not. Eventually, God gave him what he wanted. This is not a failure of God. This is squarely on that person who thinks that they know better than God. They don't need faith. They don't need Christ.

They don't need their baptism. My brother here doesn't understand baptism. Paul clearly in Romans 6 says, but this is a myth. He's going to go to verses where he assumes that simply because someone has what he perceives as faith, then receives the baptism that this is the normative means.

But nowhere in the scriptures does it say that the person has faith. It's something that he is logically conducing to hold to a systematic theology. It's going beyond what the text says. In fact, Scripture clearly says that baptism saves you, which is directly in contact and in conflict with his position.

He has clearly contradicted Scripture. And I sound rebuke him for doing so. And I would tell him to abhor God's promises, whether it be by word or word with water. It doesn't matter. It's a dangerous thing.

And I would call all Baptists to deeply think about God's word and what it has to say about baptism. To read the text in context and to ask yourself who's doing what. Because it's clearly communicated in baptism.

The Lord does the work. It is all way for salvation. In the one way of Christ Jesus. Galatians 3, verse 25 through 27. But now faith has come. We are no longer our guardian. We are Christ Jesus. We are all sons of God.

How? Through faith. For as many as of you were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Faith and baptism linked again. With 50 seconds left. Thank you for your time.

That will be all. All right. Let me reset this to the 10 minute. We'll have. Okay, I'm bringing Ken in for the cross. You will have 10 minutes.

Go ahead. Thank you, Rob, for your opening statement. It was very nice to hear the standard Lutheran argument. Where I would like to start, though, in my rebuttal is this. Rob said that the gospel is found in baptism.

I would like you to show us, Rob, where the gospel is found in baptism. Show us a text that says the gospel is found in baptism. Explain to us how it is that in baptism you have the preached word of the gospel.

Because the gospel is a very specific and definite thing defined in 1 Corinthians 15. And that is distinct from the Trinitarian formula that we see in Matthew 28. Saying I baptize you in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is not the same as what we see in 1 Corinthians 15.

We see the standard argument of 1 Peter 3 .21. I think I would like to mainly address this in the cross-examination. But I would simply ask, Rob, what is the anti-type that baptism is referring to? Is it the ark?

Is it the water? What exactly is the anti-type? I think one of the things that has been really made clear here is that there is no clear Lutheran answer to what Paul says in Romans 10. In Romans 10, we clearly see that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the preached word.

That's what the text says. That's clear as day. And so we can look at all of these other texts, which are pastoral documents. And so as we look at these pastoral documents, whether that's Romans 6, Titus 3, Ephesians 5, or Galatians, one thing that we ought to consider is these are being written to a mixed church, to people who are having issues with their faith.

And so an encouragement is to say, look, if you've been baptized, you've put on Christ. Now, the idea that that means that every single person who's been baptized has actually put on Christ is not something I think is reasonable to believe, either by Luther's definition of baptism or by mine, the Reformed position on baptism.

Luther says you have to have faith in order for it to actually be baptism. That's one of the serious issues here. I would again kind of point out this very important quote and definition from Martin Luther in the larger catechism that says, for by suffering the water to be poured upon you, you have not yet received baptism in such a manner that it will benefit you anything, but the heart must believe it.

So what we're hearing from the larger catechism, from Lutheran documents, is you have to have a believing heart for baptism to save. Well, if you have a believing heart, you've already been regenerated.

You don't see any instance, and I would ask you, Rob, to clearly show us how someone can believe the promises of God and yet not be regenerated. Over and over and over throughout scriptures, we see that unregenerate men cannot and are unable to receive the things of God.

Now, what I thought was most interesting was this, is Rob started the night by saying, baptism saves, baptism saves, baptism does all these things. If Christ commands, this will happen. And then he says, and I quote, He has conceded the debate with this statement.

What he's saying is ultimately, baptism doesn't save, but you save yourself by choosing to not fall away. If you choose to continue in faith, you choose to save yourself. That is the central tenet of Lutheranism, and as such, I believe that the debate on his side is conceded.

What he is saying is, no, baptism doesn't save. Your choice is to not fall away. Your choice to keep the faith is what saves you. While I think that there may be some profit in looking at specific texts, I would like to spend a little bit of time on the citation from Acts 22.

Now, we see a parallel to this in Acts 9. In Acts 9, what we see is something very, very interesting. If you go with me to verse, let's say, 15, we see this. Now, tell me, as a Christian, who do we refer to as brother?

Unbelievers? Do we call unbelievers brother? By no means. We only have one family, and that is the adoptive family of God. Our brothers are those who are the regenerate. Our brothers are those who have faith in Christ.

And so what we see here is Ananias first laying his hands on Paul. Paul regained his sight, and then we see in verse 18 this. And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight.

Then he rose and was baptized. So while my brother tonight clearly says that baptism is the normative means of salvation, that is his words, not mine, what we see in the book of Acts is preaching is the normal means of salvation.

Rob, I challenge you once again. Show me one instance in the book of Acts, one instance in the New Testament, where preaching or teaching did not precede baptism. In every single instance, what we see is preaching.