Variety Dividing Line

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line
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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence
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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.
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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the
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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is
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James white And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon last dividing line for a while Might be able to find some way actually
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I haven't told you so we have free free internet in Brisbane so It's possible
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Maybe but you know, I'm so busy during that time. It's gonna be hard to but we'll see maybe we can work something out
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I don't know. You can't get broadband on the airplane. Uh You know, they're working on that US Airways is working on that I can see it now sitting in a crowded
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Airplane going down the Flying in the middle of the ocean and doing a webcast. Yeah, I could probably you could offend just about everybody
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I would probably get thrown off the plane actually in midair Probably you never know might get some really interesting conversation started, you know, you never know.
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But anyway heading down to Australia. We finally have the itinerary posted on the blog
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Had someone the DJ where were they were they in Guam? Did you say Guam had someone in Guam call today?
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Just checking to see if maybe I was stopping there on the way. Maybe had a little bit of layovers It's like no, don't think
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Juan is stopping in Guam on the way that's But that'd be interesting.
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I'd love to visit Guam someday, though I I didn't know we had any listeners in Guam, but it's nice to know that My so anyway,
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I queued up some stuff But we already have a full board of calls
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So we'll go ahead and probably go through there. Now what I need to do. I also need to acknowledge we
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Did not really design the studio audience area overly well
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That we need to take that wall out maybe some stadium seating There something along those lines because we have a a large studio audience today
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We we have some folks who actually We actually have a birthday and I I'm sorry that I did not queue up any birthday music for for our brother there, but I could do the happy birthday dirge
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You've heard that before haven't you? Well, he's over 50. So dirges are better than birthday songs.
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Yeah Okay, that's enough of that we need to gongs, you know
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Get the cane pull him off of there anyways But have a whole family here on vacation now,
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I never thought the dividing line would be a vacation spot But But in in proof of the fact that that our offices are not in the best part of town they got here a little early and decided to go find a restroom and pulled into a shell station and and while at the shell station
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The the guy working in the shell station came running out of the shell station chasing a shoplifter around their car, it's great
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I just That has not happened to me, okay But then again,
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I don't get my gas down this direction either. So that's probably one of the reasons I Know we don't stop anywhere around here.
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Just straight to the parking lot Load the gun get in Yeah So anyway, but it's it's good to have the whole family of visiting with us and then somehow for some reason word got out that so we're gonna have another visitor because we have
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Someone on the phone line who knew that we were gonna have another visitor here And I think some of you might remember back.
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I think this is before we had a real blog In fact, I think this was when I was just doing plain
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HTML files as Adding stuff is before RSS feeds. This would have been
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Oh three, I think I put a picture of two Marine Corps majors on my blog along with a picture of a big ugly spider
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What were those things called? Camel spiders and were they really as big as you made it look they're huge.
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Okay. All right But anyway The I'm gonna go ahead and put our caller on on the line here, this is rich back in Virginia and hi rich How are you doing?
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I'm doing well James. I hear Jay is with you Yes And I told Jay just a few
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I told Jay just a few moments ago the last time you called you gave strict instructions to our call screener man
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That I was not to call you, sir I Know he didn't come up with any suggestions and I decided to make sure he didn't call me any name.
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No, he didn't he's He's smart enough not to So Marine Corps colonels, but I just wanted to let you know rich what
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I did today Because I thought I really worked hard on this but I was watching our cameras because we have security cameras and the rich you've got the computer up, okay, and So I I was watching and as soon as I saw what looked like a rental car
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Pulling into the parking lot and the door opened. I I Hit our speakers for the out that we have this big old honking speaker outside then generally we've used that for in the past was like one day a van pulled up next to riches car and Pulled up really close to it and I was watching and this guy got out and started trying to Jimmy the door to steal the thing and so I just hit that button and yell step away from the car and the guy dove into the van and Didn't even close the door and then yeah off they went
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You know, that's what we generally use it for is You know when people are trespassing and and they jump out of their skin and run away and so it's our fun
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But what I did is I hit the button and I had queued this up. So I wanted to play for you
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What I I greeted Jay with when he when he arrived here Hello, it's supposed to be playing.
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Here we go. Come on. Here we go. I see a Mac No, it's not It's Adele He just stood up near the room
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Are you standing up rich I I'm sitting at the position of attention sitting in the position of attention.
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There's nothing right now. Oh in a car Well, that would be What dangerous for you to do that?
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Okay, but and and for a while he stayed in the vehicle because I think either he was scared or Just uncertain as to what was going on.
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I'm not sure what was really going on there But anyways, we tried to try to give him a good welcome as he arrived today
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Yeah, do me a favor and make sure you put his helmet back on him before you send him back on the short yellow bus if you don't mind
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Okay Isn't wait a minute I love him and I want to make sure he's safe, but rich I Isn't he your elder?
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Yes now in fact, did you hear about that? He was he was ordained as an elder recently by the providence of God and I have to say that There's no other way of being ordained as an elder than by the providence
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Absolutely true it was actually really neat I got to testify of his character and everything even though he does abuse me regularly
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I I oversaw that and covered that with love and said nice things about him and Actually, you know,
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I've known each other for years He had gone to a Calvary Chapel when I started inviting him to OPC Church And so here we are now.
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He's an elder and I'm I'm one of his One of the people under his care. So there you go.
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There you go Well, anyway, it is good to have you guys out there and it was obviously
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Encouraging to us way back when that this little program was being listened to by our servicemen over in the harm's way over in in Iraq and in other places and I think you may have noticed my discussion of the fact last year we got a note from a special forces doctor out of Afghanistan and That he had said that his iPod and the dividing line
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It helped to keep his sanity while he was over there on multiple tours And since then
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I've gotten to meet him and we correspond regularly and stuff like that So so it's good to know that the internet allows us to communicate in that way.
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So Anyhow, what can we do for you today other than? Saluting and doing things like that and calling you sir.
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Well, I figured since I called I wouldn't you know, just tell rich I wanted to say hi to Jay so I thought
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I'd just a quick note about you had a caller a couple weeks ago I think of who a
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Baptist who had asked about the federal vision and You had noted that it's not really a danger for Baptist to get into interestingly enough the well confessionally a reformed
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Baptist it's not really confessionally a danger for Presbyterians either, but The I think
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I think Doug Wilson might disagree with you on that I'm not sure he's not a Presbyterian So the the
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But the point is is that Actually, I have a friend that we had called when I was in Okinawa the
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Baptist Church there. We called an RTS Brad who was going to Southern there and he noted that there's actually a lot of Southern seminary students being attracted to it.
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I think I think any any kind of swing Theologically always is attractive depending on where you're at So I don't think we should ever let our guard down knowing that that there's a confessional immunity to that because you know
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The the federal vision is is not it's not confessional at all in terms of it
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It's approach to the the Covenant in and there it's very clear in the
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Westminster confession that a Child or anybody who's baptized is not joined
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Is not united to Christ by being baptized into the church and that's essentially what they want to say with visible baptism is that the the person is somehow united to Christ and is
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Conditionally elect in a sense that they have to maintain Union as it were by Continued faithfulness to the
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Covenant and in that that's that's putting Reform Theology Completely on its head where faith alone is seen as the instrument of our our justification in union with Christ and not simply
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Visible covenant membership. So I just wanted to make that distinction. Yeah, it's interesting You'd say that I need to be very very careful as to how
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I say this but It's interesting. You'd say that about Southern simply because one of the biggest
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Brew ha ha's I ever inadvertently started was when
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I wrote the reviews in 2004 of Mark Seyfried's book Christ our righteousness and Defended the concept of the imputation of the righteousness of Christ and and things like that which he had questioned in a book that had been in the public realm for four years and of course
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Mark Seyfried teaches at Southern and the results were Well amazing educational shall we say exceptionally educational as to how people responded to that But there's certainly in any seminary almost any seminary.
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You're going to get a pretty wide variety of Viewpoints expressed in the staff.
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I mean we saw with the ends situation at Westminster it seems to be the nature of seminaries to In the
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West anyways breed diversity of opinion and you understand why that is but there's there's also
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You know concerns about that when it comes to Christian theology So but no, I don't think
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I don't think anyone needs to let their their guard down. I just think that That the the foothold that federal vision ism and new perspectivism seems to have gained
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Is much more difficult to obtain in a confessional reform Baptist context
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Then then in the Presbyterian context, that's why they're the battles are going on That's why the
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Presbyterians are meeting and are are you know? Producing statements for and against and so on and so forth and right so that's what
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I was referring to but yeah Easier to hide in a Presbyterian Church, then it would be in a
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Baptist Church, especially when you're asking your kids to be baptized That would wouldn't get very far with that.
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Anyway, thanks for the call I mean appreciate you letting me call in and saying hi to Jay Guys have a good time together today.
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All right. Thanks a lot. God bless. Thanks eight seven seven seven five three three three four one
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Let's talk with Robert in somewhere in the place. I live for six years,
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Pennsylvania. How are you sir? I'm doing well. Thank you for taking my call. Dr.
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White. Yes, sir. I just want to start by saying that I appreciate your Your work within the field of apologetics,
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I've enjoyed your debates very much my question is in regard to the debate between the majority text and the so -called critical text.
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Mm -hmm, and I wanted to start off by Asking you. Well, let me ask real quick Are you talking majority
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Texas and Hodges Fierstead a majority text as in Byzantine text platform Reese Robinson?
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Yeah, Byzantine text definitely the real majority text not the Okay The I want to start off by asking you
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Would you say that your position with the board of the NASB is tied into your defense of the so -called critical text?
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Well, you would have a hard time doing any kind of textual critical
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Work on the NASB if you use a different text than the NASB was translated from so I would assume that the reason after the
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Ankerberg programs we did that there that connection came into existence was because of the fact that in the
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King James only controversy I defended a Position that would be commensurate with that of the
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New American Standard Bible Translation committee as to what the the best underlying text would be so I would assume if I took a majority text viewpoint, then
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I would probably need to well There is no real translation of that particular text, but I don't know that I'd be able to do textual critical work on the
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NASB Okay Thank you for your answer And my second question is since you are on the board of the
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NASB. No, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not on the board of the NASB. I'm a critical consultant Okay, I'm sure you're familiar with the
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NASB Enough to know what I'll refer to here in the first Corinthians 11 24 regarding the
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Lord's Supper we have in the King James Version where the
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Lord states This is my body broken for you and In the
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NASB that word is omitted and I just like to know what what the thoughts what's the rationale in omitting the word broken?
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Well, and if you'd like me to read the King James Version to give us some context I can do that Well, I'm sure folks can can can look it up I mean the the
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King James has and when he had given thanks he break it and said take eat This is my body which is broken for you this doing remembrance of me
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The NASB Doesn't have the that phrase obviously because there would be a textual variant
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Actually, it says each I'm just looking bring up the the text here trying to find the variant information
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Did you did you to do Greek textual wasn't expecting Greek textual issues today, but we'll pop it open anyways here
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This is my body that is I'm actually I'm looking at the New American Bible, which is really really horrible
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This is my body which is for you do this in remembrance of Me and he broke and called and this is my body
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Probably as you'll notice here You have a in the textual information
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You have Matthew 26 26 as one of the parallel passages For one of the insertions the first insertion is a take eat and then which is given in behalf of you or Tahu pair whom own
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I'm looking for what the variant is If I had known this when when you called
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I could have looked this up before we went on the air, but do you do do? Mm -hmm p46 deletes ta
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Did a man text p46 do this remembrance of me that is for you.
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All right Evidently with I'd have to get out the majority text maybe there's something in the
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That text that the na27 isn't isn't noting I I don't see what What The situation is are you familiar with what the what the reading is
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No, no, we can't because now that now that you've raised it now we have to Figure out what's what's going on here.
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I don't I don't I'm not going to interject my thoughts on it I mean, I wanted to know what the right
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I'm not familiar with the NASB as much as you are In fact, that's why I wanted to ask
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Specifically hold on just saying rich rich next next to my Computer over there on the left -hand side above is the
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Byzantine textual platform text. It's read maybe that would have something that the text isn't giving me here, so Since we have a variant and now everyone's gonna want to know why that is and so we're gonna have to take a look at It so we'll just this is live radio folks except we're not on the radio
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So we'll do the best we can we can do. Thank you, sir and I ran into Maurice Robinson in New York recently and If he hadn't already promised this text to the pastor of the church
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He would have given it to me, but so I had to purchase it Okay, it's only lists the same two
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The same two and again take eat this is Okay, Clowman.
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Okay, there's there's all right. There's There's the variant is
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Clowman which is Found in okay
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Second hand of Sinaiticus second hand of D Margin of 1739 1881 and the majority reading
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Okay, so Now when you say the majority reading What do you mean by that well majority text in the
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Nessie Island is indicative of the broad Byzantine category? It's not always perfectly united but it is the general sigla is used to refer to the
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Byzantine manuscripts which form the majority of the Manuscript tradition and which of course are almost all post 1000
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AD Okay, and just to make sure just to clarify when you say the majority you're not talking about the part that majority text correct no the majority symbol used in the in the textual footnotes is indicative of a broad number of manuscripts, but the
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Byzantine text type as a whole so in answer to your question and answer your question the 26th edition of the
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Nessie Island Greek text does not have That word in it and therefore it would not be
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Translated and so the NASB is a literal translation of this is my body tahu pair who moan
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Which is given for you? No, so follow -up question Why does the the 26th edition omit broken then?
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Because it is not because of the textual information that is okay And how many just how many manuscripts support the evidence that broken was not part of you?
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that's that's one of the the main differences between Looking at manuscripts and weighing manuscripts in other words in any situation where a majority text reading
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Exists then if you go with numbers, then you're going to have to have a majority text reading the vast majority of us believe that the majority text reflects a
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Particular text that developed in the area around Byzantium and that the reason it's the majority is it has to do with historical reasons
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Not that it was for example the majority text in the year 900 or the majority text in the year 1000 that's that's one of the
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I think important things is that I Really appreciate dr. Robinson, and I appreciate the fact that he and I would share many of the same
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Concerns about the direction that New Testament textual criticism is going today. We're concerned with people like And and Dan Wallace and I discussed this just last week on the program we're concerned with with the the fact they're no longer even looking for the original so on and so forth, but Where I have not been convinced and remain to be convinced is the idea that the
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Byzantine manuscript tradition is to be taken over an
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Alexandrian manuscript tradition simply because There are historical reasons why it became the majority in later church history
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That's my issue and and what what I'm Concerned about is that the vast majority of brothers and sisters who are being
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Guided towards putting their confidence in the so -called critical text Is that they're not getting the full story.
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They're not getting both sides of the debate and They can't pick up books by dr.
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Robinson or others Well, the thing is that they're they're being guided by those whom they trust to to put their faith in in the critical text
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And they're not nothing those individuals who are hailing the critical text as the superior text are not saying well
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You know, there's this other side of the debate. Really? I know my book Gave almost a half page of reference notes.
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In fact, dr. Robinson will testify to you that I wrote to him before doing the second edition and I asked him
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What would you like to have as a presentation of your best materials in my book and I included it?
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So sorry that ain't gonna fly with me That that's fair enough. I mean it may not fly with you, but that's that's what's happening
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I mean, I I come across plenty of individuals of Christians even seminarians who
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Are so adamant about the critical text and a vast majority of them Even even though they're in seminary don't have any clue what the arguments for the
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King James Version Are Back back up the back of the truck back up the truck
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King James Version you just switch is that a lot of people don't a lot of the
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Seminarians and the individuals that I speak with who who have an affinity for the critical text are not aware of the arguments for the
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King James Version Yo, yo, yo, yo, yo you you're a major equivocation here
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The majority text is not the King James Version In fact, the King James Version would differ in 1800 places minimally from the the
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TR is not the majority text So which one is it? The the Texas Receptus is received from the majority text.
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The Texas Receptus is is Has major differences from the
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Byzantine text platform. It has numerous idiosyncrasies to it If you know its history, you know why that was but If you look at the
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King James Version, dr. White and the Texas Receptus Okay, and you put it in light of the majority text you have a much but you have a
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Translation that is closer Of course Let me finish dr.
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White, please. Let me finish If you look at the if you look at the critical text which shares the platform with the
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Westcott and Hort text The variations and the omissions that they decided to to pursue have no foundation
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On on the vast majority of manuscripts that have been found Okay, Robert, Robert, you called me to ask me a question.
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I've answered the question now I know if you don't want to believe that the manuscripts that are closer and they're the most ancient are
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Way more in the critical decision concerning readings. Great.
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That's fine. That's wonderful Go out there and promote your your position, but You know,
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I'm not equivocating You're equivocating age with superiority and that's not necessarily that's not even a proper use the term there
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Robert equivocating age I'm sorry, that's your yes. I am saying that a man is yes
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Yes, I am Yeah, I do believe yeah,
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I do believe the man is We wouldn't even have the okay that's called putting somebody on hold because someone doesn't want to give and take first of all
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Robert you called here and We have done extensive discussions in the past concerning why
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I would think that What is found in a manuscript? Such as p46 or p66 p72 that can be dated as early as 175 ad
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Has more weight than a manuscript written in the year 1300
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There's a 1200 year difference and I think most people naturally recognize That a manuscript that is that close to the time of the original has more weight
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Because of how much closer it is Generationally now there are manuscripts such as 1739 and 1881 that are from around the year 1100 and yet clearly came from very early manuscripts, but the irony there is they're not
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Byzantine They don't have that local textual flavor. And so yes, we can definitely
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I think discuss those things but you want to know why there was a difference in the manuscripts reading in the
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New American Standard there and I've explained that so thank you very much for your phone call today Anyway, it's always helpful.
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By the way, if you're gonna call in and you want to get into an in -depth subject Tell the call screener that so I can at least have material in front of me
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It we wasted five minutes just to find the material if I had known first green 1124 Then you know
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I can fire my stuff up and I can have that stuff sitting there and I can you know try to figure that out and have a little bit more of an intelligent conversation, but The reason that the
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New American Standard reads the way it does is because of the text that it's translating now He was right about one thing the vast majority of seminary students don't know anything about this at all.
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No question about it I don't and but am I not the last person on the planet to complain to about that?
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I Try who did I have on the program a week ago today Dan Wallace? Okay Why don't you call
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Dan Wallace and argue about that particular one? I have done everything I can do and I Honestly believe that though.
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I do not hold to the Byzantine Majority position I Respect dr.
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Robinson. I respect his work I'm appreciative of the perspective there and I have said many many times
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I do not believe that the if I hold this text here. I've got the Nestle Ellen text in one hand and here's dr
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Robinson's Byzantine majority text here if I apply the same rules of interpretation to these two texts
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I'm not going to come up with two different Gospels. I Think that's vitally important and I would agree
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That's the vast majority of seminary graduates Embrace that text without knowing what the arguments from the other side are
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But I'm the one telling people to look at the arguments from the other side So you're you're complaining to the wrong person on that one.
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You need to go talk to the folks who are in seminaries and other places
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Etc. Etc. Let's talk with Leo in Toronto. Hi Leo. Oh, good morning.
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Dr. White Good afternoon Yes, I'm calling from Toronto.
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I I understand you've paid a visit here before I have yes Yes, I live not too far from Shabir Ali's Islamic Center.
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Ah It is an interesting place and I This may be an in -depth discussion,
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I don't want to get into an in -depth discussion, but I just want your opinion on something Well, I'm calling in regards to some some of Jesus's utterances in a
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New Testament that have been troubling to me as a Christian I'm referring to the ones that pertain to the
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Olivet discourse now. I belong in a Preterist Church That holds to what is referred to as quote realized eschatology
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Eschatology first, what is your theological interpretation concerning all of the discourse? Are you a dispensationalist or Preterist?
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No, I am NOT a dispensationalist Amillennialist such as myself would see a major portion of Matthew chapter 24 is having a historical fulfillment and yet there is also
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Future fulfillment for other elements of Matthew chapter 24 in opposition to a hyper
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Preterist or a Pantelist Who would believe that in essence all future prophecies in the
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New Testament have already been fulfilled and we are already in the eternal state which
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To me is extremely depressing Yes, I know it's a deplorable position maybe many of the anti -christian position
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I would say at that and Yes, I I've noticed there are some elements which
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I have not been yet yet been fulfilled But there are some that obviously have been fulfilled and the context of the
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Olivet discourse such as are found in Matthew 24 Luke 21 and Mark 13
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Jesus discusses the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem and the end of the age
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I believe and Well Skeptic pointed out to me that Jesus made some false prophecies as to the precise timing of his coming
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And he showed me several verses that may indicate that before I get into these passages I understand that Bart Ehrman has commented on these passages in his book called
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Jesus an apocalyptic prophet If I'm not mistaken, does he address that at all? Well, of course, it's very common for atheists and skeptics to attempt to read
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Jesus's teachings as if Jesus expected his return in and a very short period of time
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In the lifetime of the people who heard his words Of course that requires you to not see a near and far fulfillment of prophecy which of course throws out all messianic prophecies, which they reject anyways out of hand as naturalists anyway, but very very common for skeptics and atheists and others to Take a reading of the text that it's interesting.
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They will almost always like Bart Ehrman does Put Matthew after the destruction of Jerusalem, but then they make him stupid enough to include false prophecies
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Which I find very very weird. But anyway, yes, he does kind of that. I told my friend however, he wasn't convinced
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I just don't want to commit any Textual gymnastics here if I'm if I'm to claim that there are some passages that have been fulfilled yet There are others that have not been fulfilled.
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Is this exegetically tenable well again Look at the prophecies of the coming of Christ in the
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Old Testament. Look at the use of Psalm 22 Isaiah 53 Psalm 2 etc, etc.
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There is laid down there very clearly a concept of a near and far fulfillment
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I the the Immanuel God with us in Isaiah chapter 7 clearly has an immediate fulfillment within a year of its being given in Isaiah and yet It is not a full or complete fulfillment of that.
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So any type of a apocalyptic and and prophetic material
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Bears that kind of nature in it, especially if it is being used to attempt to Cause Christians to always be looking for and living in light of an imminent return of Christ now it has been rightly said that for most of us the
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Christ returns when our lifetime ends for us that is that's when we meet him
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But coming the second coming of Christ to the world is meant to be something that every generation of believers
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Looks forward to and so how do you? Talk about that And do it in such a way that for all these generations there is this constant hope of each generation that God is going to Rule over all evil and he's going to vanquish all evil through the kingdom of Christ Without doing it in such a way that that there are certain generations go.
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Well, it's just not possible It couldn't couldn't happen in our in our lifetime We can we can go ahead and be like those unfaithful servants who did not think that their master would return which was of course one of the parables that Jesus himself told about his own coming so I think it really comes down to whether you want to be fair with the reading and recognize that in writing these things in the gospel narratives the writers are attempting to Communicate the imminence of Christ's return for each and every generation.
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How do you do that? It doesn't make sense to me that those who take a liberal perspective would
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Would in essence say well these Gospels are late but they also likewise are
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Containing false prophecies Why in the world would they do something like that if from their perspective
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They are basically making things up as they're going along on the one hand. It's prophecy after the fact on the other hand
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It's a prophet of spelled prophecy beforehand It doesn't make much sense.
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I mean either you've got to think that Matthew really did believe these things But that means he must have written them before which which pushes
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Matthew back earlier Or you just simply have to say Matthew's making it up as he went along But he just was not smart enough to figure out how to do it in a in a way.
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That would be at all compelling yes, and then a passage in Matthew 24 that says that well it describes his appearance of the
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Son of Man to the powers of the heavens being shaken and revealing and all his glory and it says that Assuredly I say to you this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place
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Yeah Let me let me let me mention something to you Leo Matthew 24 in eschatology is not my primary area.
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I'm gonna tell you that right up front There are a lot better people to handle your questions about this. This is there's certain areas that mainly because I Just don't like the the food fights that people get into about these things that I don't get into a lot of But there are some excellent books out there in fact
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The fellow who teaches in my place when I'm not at the Phoenix Reform Baptist Church Fell by name of Jim Callahan did a whole series going through Matthew chapter 24 and I think that might be more useful to you than anything
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I would would have to offer to you right now, but I Might be able to to come up with some some book suggestions too, but I'll be perfectly honest with you
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It's not not my strong area. It's not not my area of apologetic inquiry.
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There are other people who are a lot better in this area than I am so I can give you some of the background issues
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But I think you might want to be looking at some folks who do specific work in that area to to get specifics.
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Okay? Okay, okay. All right. Thanks. Thanks Leo for your call today.
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I appreciate it. That's just a We've got lots of calls. I'm trying to get to here as well.
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But hey, I've said many many times there are certain areas I just go. Hey, there's folks that are a little bit better at that stuff than I am and That's definitely one of them
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Master math 24 and all the specifics of that Eschatology just is not not my area.
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Let's talk with Benjamin in Norman, Oklahoma. Hi Benjamin. Hello. Dr. White.
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How are you? I'm doing very well. How are you fine? Well, I I know that you've been very busy, but I hope that I will have given you a little bit of a head
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Notice on this because I called Tuesday after the program had ended unfortunately and and spoke with mr rich Pierce, uh -huh, and I was asking a question about English versions of the
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Quran. Oh, yes Uh -huh, and about Arabic versions of the Bible, right? Because I have a friend who is a
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Shiite Muslim and he is one who has Points of view
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I had I had just not known Muslims held to I thought that they believed the
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Bible was in some sense corrupted But this gentleman to the great by the great mercy of God believes that the
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Bible that we now possess today is entirely infallible and He's under the impression that it isn't completely the
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Word of God and entirely trustworthy Which should make the whole process of witnessing to him a great deal simpler maybe yeah,
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I mean I Just as a result of that call I I actually and I'm not sure
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I know I forwarded something to rich I'm not sure if that was forwarded to you or not, but yeah, he's looking at me like no don't think so, but I I contacted a
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Shiite Muslim apologist that I have a relationship with and he gave me a
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URL to a Quranic site that has What most
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Shiites would consider to be the best? Translation of the Quran as you would expect it is not one of the standard
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Translations such as Yusuf Ali or picked all or one of the others I don't have that information in front of me
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I thought that you all were in contact via email not necessarily on phone So I had forwarded that URL over and maybe you could write in or something and then forward that as well but I also asked my
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Shiite friend for Some references what he would consider to be the best works explaining
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Shiite theology and things like that because while Shiism is a minority in Islam And as we know there's a great deal of conflict between Sunni and Shia, especially in the
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Middle East You know it 90 % of the
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Muslims with whom I would be dealing with are our Sunni and They have their traditions that they follow and their theology
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Shiism especially with its emphasis upon the Mahdi especially the
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Twelvers the coming of the Mahdi the I most people are not aware of this, but you could walk through Bazaars and and bookstores and things like that in Iraq Afghanistan places like that and they'll be filled with the only way that I could describe it would be
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Muslim versions of Tim LaHaye Seriously, they're all sorts of books about the end times and and the the coming of Of the end of the world and things like that it's it's extremely popular, and I was unaware of this until just a few years ago and the specifics of All of that I will confess has not been a part of my primary focus.
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Hey if I don't if I'm not big into The arguments the Christians have about that then it's really rough to try to figure out what the
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Shiites are thinking about that but anyway At least my friend seems to be yeah,
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I have a feeling your friend is a Little unusual on that on that level because I I know that my my
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Shiite apologist friend Would never take the view of the Bible what you did He has the very same view that most of my
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Sunni Islamic apologist do and that it's been corrupted and and Paul was to blame for pretty much everything and so on and so forth so That strikes me as a little bit as a little bit odd But I think
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I mentioned that you can obtain online fairly easily the Van Dyck translation
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Arabic translation of the Bible That's sort of the King James Version I tried that I Downloaded it for him, and he looked at it and we were examining
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Acts chapter 17 and the very ends and I was talking to him about the importance of comparing former revelation
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Obviously from the Tanakh the New Testament etc with later revelation, which would be coming from Muhammad Claiming to be a prophet of God and I was trying to say here to you see here in the
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Holy Word of God that has come before how that the barians are called noble because they
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Received the word with eagerness and they compared it with the revelation They already had so I was encouraging him to do this, but the
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Van Dyck translation. He said He couldn't understand it very well wasn't very clear It was not good
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Arabic, and it might have been just because it was an older Well, it is it is an older translation, and it is
45:55
Are you familiar with the term Fussah? No, Fussah would be a classical form of Arabic It may tend more toward that there is and in essence what we would call an
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NIV version Arabic which you can get from the I think the American Bible Society Might be a little bit more colloquial is the one you're talking about.
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I found on Bible Gateway They had an Arabic version called the life application
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Bible that I'm not certain I I don't know. I I have the NIV Arabic, but I generally
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Carry the Van Dyck just because it's the only one I can get with large enough Arabic for my eyes
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So it's a it's a readability issue on that on that level for me but I have we have folks at my church that that read and speak
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Arabic and They've criticized the Van Dyck on a number of instances, but generally that's still what they carry
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I'm not sure if the NIV is you know if that's just more of a traditional thing or just what but both those would be available to you and If you want to drop a line
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I could I could have rich forward you the URL that had the Shia Translations of the of the
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Quran available to in fact the one he said that they feel is the best He says really very very difficult to obtain at all
47:18
Yeah, I think there's one. I looked on a Middle -eastern Middle East quarterly and they had a comparison of English versions of the
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Quran and There seems to be Two that make some sense to use one of them was written by a gentleman named
47:32
Arthur Arbery, right? very scholarly translation the second one was one that had a great deal of notes for Shia worship and things like that and it was written by someone they
47:46
I think named Saeed Mir Ahmed Ali yes. Yeah, it's the Holy Quran.
47:52
Yes. Yes, and that one seemed to be favored by the she yes Yes, yes, I think that's I think that is what he had right or referred to yes, okay, so that's one that they would probably
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Universally accept if I be very careful with the word universal, right? That's so true.
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Yeah, that's true. I mean my friends from Iraq, but he told me about The difference between Shia and Iran Saudi Arabia Iraq, etc, etc.
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Okay. All righty. Well, hopefully that'll be helpful to you, brother Thank you very much
48:26
All right, let's head off. Are we really heading off to Sweden? Let's talk to Magnus in Sweden.
48:32
Hello Magnus How are you you have to excuse my my language difficulty so you you can correct me if I know things wrong
48:43
Well, I don't know. I got the bad batteries as well. But but you know, my question is how do you reconcile the fact that?
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That all the claims, you know, the uniqueness of Christ seems to have Greek or Roman Counterparts that there are prior.
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I don't like I don't I don't Reconcile that all because I don't accept that assertion
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Okay, but you know if you you read the history of New Testament background. Mm -hmm.
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Oh Gone Did he did he say something about a battery?
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He said something about batteries, didn't he? Oh man, he should have gone to Battery Depot Magnus I'm very sorry but I do have good news for you
49:31
Magnus, hopefully you're still listening or will listen and that is the subject that you raised is the subject of my debate with Dan Barker in September in outside of Portland and hopefully we'll have well, there's a there's a
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Flash banner up right now on that specific debate that will be taking place up there And I will be defending uniqueness of Jesus and I would like to know which specific
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Alleged parallels you want to talk about Osiris Mithra Dionysus, whatever but we have an excellent book in our bookstore on the subject of Reinvent is it with reinventing
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Jesus reinventing Jesus that would address that of course, dr Nash's classic work from the 1960s the gospel and the
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Greeks goes into in depth on that But there's just one thing to keep in mind. There's all sorts of really bad information on the internet
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That is not critically analyzing the scholarly material on for example the
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Mithra cult They will take stuff that comes from hundreds of years after Christ assume that it was true hundreds of years before Christ and try to create all these amazing parallels the
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Dionysus story, you know being born being sewn into a
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God's thigh and Coming forth in the God's thigh being made a parallel of virgin birth or the various Cyclical dying and rising again stories related to agriculture
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People just have to step back and think for just a moment. We're talking about the monotheistic
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Jewish religion here and They to come up with these things as if the early
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Christians were borrowing from pagan religions to create a Jesus myth
51:26
Well is just simply silly it makes no sense
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Historically, it makes no sense Philosophically, it makes no sense on any level at all.
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The only reason people do it is so they can sell books I'll be perfect honest with you It has been debunked for a long time, but the internet has raised it to a second life again and it's it's a shame but we'll have more to say about that as we get closer to the
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Debate itself as we look at some of these and we have in the past I've taken the time to then
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I'm right here on the dividing line I've gone through the Dionysus story and I've read the story and we've talked about it and things like that But I realize these things just how we have to keep talking about it over and over again because it keeps coming up So I'm sorry about that to Magnus.
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But like I said, you might want to go to Battery Depot Because he said he did
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I didn't understand why he said something about a battery And now it makes sense when all sudden it's gone.
52:28
All right, let's talk with John back in Fredericksburg Hi, John. All right. Thanks for taking my call.
52:34
Yes, sir. I have a question I became reformed about I guess a year and a half ago
52:39
Mm -hmm, and I've always been in Harrison apologetics since I've been saved because I used to be an atheist okay, and my background apologetics have been a lot of people from like William Lane Craig and that side and I got a little frog in my throat there for sorry
52:55
I was wondering from a presuppositional standpoint, and I'm sort of new to that. I'm not sure I completely understand it
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Would you object to the cosmological argument from a presuppositional standpoint?
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Well, here's here's how you'd handle that now Greg Bonson did so I'll tell you right up front Greg Bonson rather viciously
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Criticized the cosmological argument and I and I said a couple months ago and I got all sorts emails
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Oh, I want to hear that. I want to hear that someday when I have just all sorts of loads of time
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I'd like to go through Greg's criticism of it and say, you know, I'm not sure that that he criticized the strongest version of the cosmological argument, but In fact just just for the geeks that are concerned about these things.
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I think there's a connection between The transcendental argument for the existence of God which is based upon what's called the principle sufficient reason
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And the foundation of the best form of the cosmological argument Which is also based upon PSR the principle sufficient reason
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I see a connection between the two, but here's the presuppositional criticism of Simply presenting the cosmological argument to a an atheist and saying well there it is
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Why don't you believe and that is you're assuming that the sinner is something other than a sinner?
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You're you're you you're ignoring the fact that the New Testament teaches us That this is a man who's creating image of God and what does the
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Bible say? He's doing in Romans 1 He is suppressing the knowledge of God He already has the knowledge that God exists and that he should worship him as God and give thanks and he is suppressing that knowledge
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So what's he gonna do with more facts that you present to him? He's going to suppress them to the whole point of presuppositionalism is is not to just simply well
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You just assume the Bible's true and go from there It is to recognize that since the Bible teaches us what a sinner is
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Then we have to take that seriously and that therefore we have to address his presuppositions which make it impossible for the
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Christian God to exist and Demonstrate that he is not consistent With his own worldview he will have to borrow parts of my worldview to prop his up and You have to start there.
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It's a matter of starting places I think the cosmological argument is perfectly valid given a
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Christian worldview Which is the only worldview that works? But you're dealing with someone who's starting with something other than the
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Christian worldview And so you have to address that on a presuppositional level that is they're embracing a worldview
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That makes it impossible for the biblical God to exist. They have already in essence Dismissed any and all evidence of the
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Christian God's existence. You just simply can't even bring it into court Yeah, that's that's the issue and and that's that's where I think from a reform perspective
55:50
Other than William Lane Craig's really bad theology on these issues as far as you know
55:57
Not only his Arminianism, but his incipient inclusivism and and all sorts of things that go along with it there is this foundational issue of recognizing that we have to deal with man as a totally depraved sinner and That if you approach him as if he's some morally neutral individual that just needs to be given guidance and more information
56:22
You're not operating on a biblical basis and a biblical anthropology at that point
56:27
Yeah, and do I have time for second question about a minute or so, yeah, okay
56:35
My knowledge that not everybody who's performed is a presuppositionalist, right? But I believe that everybody who is a presuppositionalist is performed pretty much
56:45
So do I pretty much so? Okay. So what distinctively about it is
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I guess we're formed that that That Arminians do not accept I guess it's it's a number of things
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But the most fundamental thing would be that a you have a God that has a sovereign decree that he's working out in this world that gives form and substance to all things and Meaning to all things and that man as his creature cannot simply put himself in the center and go
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Ah, I'm going to define everything around me on the basis of my own experience a and be a a serious biblical anthropology that Recognizes that man is a rebel sinner suppressing the knowledge of God the
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Arminian in general because of his view of libertarianism Has to grant to man a sense of autonomy
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And so the idea of total depravity even touching the very thought process of man himself
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Just simply can't be a part of their their system of theology. Okay. All right. All right.
57:46
Thank you. All right. Thanks a lot Man What a program
57:53
I Rushed to get all this stuff. I had had stuff queued up because we never know
58:00
Whether those phone lines are gonna melt down or whether they're just going to sit there and do the cricket routine
58:05
There's just no there's there's just no way in Owen Maybe everybody thought we better get our calls in now because Brian I can be taking too many phone calls down there down under But we'll see we might be able to find a time to that's okay.
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All your answers would have been upside down. I Know why you don't want me to do it because you don't want me to do it in my
58:24
Australian accent Which no one can differentiate from my
58:30
British accent or my Scottish accent anyways, so hey, we'll see what happens All right, folks pray for us as we head down under for the time of ministry there.
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Obviously, it's a it's a long trip down there Pray for my health and then for the debates and if we don't hear from you
58:47
If you don't hear from me from Australia, you'll hear from me when we get back Lord Thanks for listening. See you next time The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries
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59:55
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