Variety Dividing Line

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

Travel Plans, Studio Audience, and Opening Call-In Banter

And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon last dividing line. For a while I might be able to find some way. Actually I haven't told you. So we have free free internet in Brisbane so It's possible.

Maybe but you know, I'm so busy during that time. It's gonna be hard to but we'll see maybe we can work something out.

I don't know. You can't get broadband on the airplane. Uh.

You know, they're working on that. US Airways is working on that. I can see it now sitting in a crowded Airplane going down the Flying in the middle of the ocean and doing a webcast. Yeah, I could probably defend just about everybody.

I would probably get thrown off the plane actually in midair. Probably you never know might get some really interesting conversation started, you know, you never know. But anyway heading down to Australia.

We finally have the Itinerary posted on the blog. Had someone the DJ. Where were they? Were they in Guam? Did you say Guam had someone in Guam call today? Just checking to see if maybe I was stopping there on the way.

Maybe had a little bit of layovers. It's like no, don't think Juana's is stopping in Guam on the way that's. But that'd be interesting. I'd love to visit Guam someday, though. I I didn't know we had any listeners in Guam, but it's nice to know that.

We get everywhere oh.

My so anyway, I queued up some stuff. But we already have a full board of calls. So we'll go ahead and probably go through there. Now what I need to do. I also need to acknowledge we Did not really design the studio audience area overly well.

That we need to take that wall out maybe some stadium seating. There something along those lines because we have a a large studio audience today. We we have some folks who actually We actually have a birthday and I I'm sorry that I did not queue up any birthday music for for our brother there, but.

I could do the happy birthday dirge.

You've heard that before haven't you? Well, he's over 50. So dirges are better than birthday songs. Yeah. Okay, that's enough of that. We need to gongs, you know. Get the cane pull him off of there anyways.

But have a whole family here on vacation now, I never thought the dividing line would be a vacation spot.

But.

But in in proof of the fact that that our offices are not in the best part of town they got here a little early and decided to go find a restroom and pulled into a shell station and and while at the shell station the The the guy working in the shell station came running out of the shell station chasing a shoplifter around their car, it's great I just.

That has not happened to me, okay. But then again, I don't get my gas down this direction either. So that's probably one of the reasons I Know we don't stop anywhere around here. Just straight to the parking lot.

Load the gun get in.

Yeah.

So anyway, but it's it's good to have the whole family of visiting with us and then somehow for some reason word got out that so we're gonna have another visitor because we have Someone on the phone line who knew that we were gonna have another visitor here.

And I think some of you might remember back. I think this is before we had a real blog. Fact I think this was when I was just doing plain HTML files as Adding stuff is before RSS feeds. This would have been.

Oh three, I think I put a picture of two Marine Corps majors on my blog along with a picture of a big ugly spider. What were those things called? Camel spiders and were they really as big as you made it look they're huge.

Okay. All right. But anyway The I'm gonna go ahead and put our caller on on the line here. This is rich back in Virginia and hi rich.

How are you doing? I'm doing well James. I hear Jay is with you.

Yes. And I told Jay just a few. I told Jay just a few moments ago the last time you called. You gave strict instructions to our call screener man. That I was not to call you sir.

I.

Know he didn't come up with a suggestions and I decided to make sure he didn't call me any name. No, he didn't he's. He's smart enough not to Insult Marine Corps colonels, but I just wanted to let you know rich what I did today.

Because I thought I really worked hard on this but I was watching our cameras because we have security cameras and the rich you've got the computer up, okay, and So I I was watching and as soon as I saw what looked like a rental car Pulling into the parking lot and the door opened.

I I Hit our speakers for the out that we have this big old honking speaker outside then generally we've used that for in the past was like one day a van pulled up next to riches car and.

Pulled up really close to it.

And I was watching and this guy got out and started trying to Jimmy the door to steal the thing and so I just hit that button and yell step away from the car and the guy dove into the van and Didn't even close the door and then yeah off they went.

You know, so that's what we generally use it for is you know when people are trespassing and and they jump out of their skin and run away and so it's our fun, but What I did is I hit the button and I had queued this up.

So I wanted to play for you. What I I greeted Jay with when he when he arrived here. Hello, it's supposed to be playing. Here we go. Come on. Here we go. I see a Mac. No, it's not It's Adele. He just stood up near the room.

Are you standing up rich? I. I'm sitting at the position of attention. Sitting in the position of attention.

There's nothing right now. Oh in a car. Well, that would be. What dangerous for you to do that? Okay, but and for a while he stayed in the vehicle because I think either he was scared or Just uncertain as to what was going on.

I'm not sure what was really going on there But anyways, we tried to try to give him a good welcome as he arrived today.

Yeah, do me a favor and make sure you put his helmet back on him before you send him back on the short yellow bus if you don't mind.

Okay.

I.

Isn't wait a minute.

I love him and I want to make sure he's safe, but rich I.

Isn't he your elder?

Yes now in fact, did you hear about that? He was. He was ordained as an elder recently by the providence of God and I have to say that.

There's no other way of being ordained as an elder than by the providence.

Absolutely, I really need. I got to testify of his character and everything even though he does Abuse me regularly. I I oversaw that and covered that with love and said nice things about him and actually He and I have known each other for years.

He had gone to a cavalry chapel when I started inviting him to OPC Church. And so here we are now. He's an elder and I'm I'm one of his One of the people under his care. So there you go. There you go.

Well, anyway, it is good to have you guys out there and it was obviously Encouraging to us way back when that this little program was being listened to by our servicemen over in the harm's way over in in Iraq and in other places and I think you may have noticed my discussion of the fact last year we got a note from a special forces doctor out of Afghanistan and That he had said that his iPod and the dividing line it helped to keep his sanity while he was over there on multiple tours and Since then I've gotten to meet him and we correspond regularly and stuff like that.

So so it's good to know that the internet allows us to communicate in that way. So Anyhow, what can we do for you today other than?

Saluting and doing things like that and calling you sir. Well, I figured since I called I wouldn't you know, just tell rich I wanted to say hi to Jay so I thought I'd just a quick note about you had a caller a couple weeks ago.

I think of who a Baptist who had asked about the federal vision and You had noted that it's not really a danger for Baptist to get into interestingly enough the well confessionally a reformed Baptist.

It's not really confessionally a danger for Presbyterians either, but.

The I think I think Doug Wilson might disagree with you on that. I'm not sure he's not a Presbyterian.

So the the but the point is is that Actually, I have a friend that we had called when I was in Okinawa the Baptist Church there. We called an RTS Brad who was going to Southern Southern there and he noted that there's actually a lot of Southern seminary students being attracted to it.

I think I think any any kind of swing Theologically always is attractive depending on where you're at. So I don't think we should ever let our guard down knowing that that there's a confessional Immunity to that because you know the the federal vision is is not it's not confessional at all in terms of it the Covenant in and there it's very clear in the Westminster confession that a child or anybody who's baptized is not Joined is not united to Christ by being baptized into the church.

And that's essentially what they want to say with visible baptism is that the the person is somehow united to Christ and is conditionally elect to maintain Continued faith instrument of our Christ and not simple covenant membership.

So I just wanted to make that distinction. Yeah, it's interesting.

You'd say that I need to be very very careful as to how I say this, but It's interesting. You'd say that about Southern simply because one of the biggest Brouhaha's I ever inadvertently started Was when I wrote the reviews in 2004 of Mark Seyfried's book Christ our righteousness and defended the concept of the imputation of the righteousness of Christ and and things like that which he had questioned in a book that had been in the public realm for four years and of course Mark Seyfried teaches at Southern and the results were Well amazing educational shall we say exception educational as to how people responded to that.

But there's certainly in any seminary almost any seminary. You're going to get a pretty wide variety of Viewpoints expressed in the staff. I mean we saw with the ends situation at Westminster it seems to be the nature of seminaries to In the West anyways breed diversity of opinion and you understand why that is but there's there's also You know concerns about that when it comes to Christian theology, so but no I don't think I don't think anyone needs to let their their guard down.

I just think that That the the foothold that federal vision ism and new perspectivism seems to have gained Is much more difficult to obtain in a confessional reform Baptist context Then then in the Presbyterian context, that's why they're the battles are going on that's why the Presbyterians are meeting and are are you know producing statements for and against and so on and so forth and So that's what I was referring to.

But yeah.

Easier to hide in a Presbyterian Church, then it would be in a Baptist Church, especially when you're asking your kids to be baptized. That would wouldn't get very far with that. Anyway, thanks for the call.

I mean appreciate you letting me call in and saying hi to Jay. Alright, thanks a lot. God bless. Thanks.

Majority Text, the NASB, and 1 Corinthians 11:24

Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. Let's talk with Robert in somewhere in the place. I live for six years, Pennsylvania. How are you, sir?

I'm doing well. Thank you for taking my call. Dr. White. Yes, sir. I just want to start by saying that I appreciate your Your work within the field of apologetics. I've enjoyed your debates very much.

My question is in regard to the Debate between the majority text and the so-called critical text. Mm-hmm, and I wanted to start off by.

Asking you. Well, let me ask real quick. Are you talking majority text as in Hodges Farrstead and majority text as in Byzantine text platform Reese Robinson?

Yeah, Byzantine text. That's the real majority text not the.

Okay.

The I want to start off by asking you Would you say that your position with the board of the NASB is tied into your defense of the so-called critical text.

Well, you would have a hard time doing any kind of textual critical work on the NASB if you use a different text than the NASB was translated from. So I Would assume that the reason after the Ankerberg programs we did that there that connection came into existence was because of the fact that in the King James only controversy I defended a Position that would be commensurate with that of the New American Standard Bible Translation committee as to what the the best underlying text would be.

So I would assume if I took a majority text viewpoint, then I would probably need to well There is no real translation of that particular text. But I don't know that I'd be able to do textual critical work on the NASB.

Okay.

Thank you for your answer. And my second question is since you are on the board of the NASB. I'm not on the board of the NASB.

I'm a critical consultant.

Okay, I'm sure you're familiar with the NASB. Enough to know what I'll refer to here in the first Corinthians 11 24 regarding the Lord's Supper we have in the King James Version Where the Lord states?

This is my body broken.

For you and.

In the NASB that word is omitted and I just like to know what what the thoughts. What's the rationale in omitting the word broken?

Well.

Well, I'm sure folks can can can look it up. I mean the the King James has and when he had given thanks he break it and said take eat. This is my body, which is broken for you this doing remembrance of me.

The NASB Doesn't have the that phrase obviously because there would be a textual variant. Actually, it says each. I'm just looking bringing up the the text here trying to find the variant information.

Did you to do to do Greek textual. Wasn't expecting Greek textual issues today, but we'll pop it open anyways here. This is my body that is I'm actually I'm looking at the New American Bible, which is really really horrible.

This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of Me. And he broke and called and this is my body. Probably as you'll notice here You have a in the textual information you have Matthew 26 26 as one of the parallel passages.

For one of the insertions the first insertion is take eat. And then which is given in behalf of you or ta who pair who moan. I'm looking for what the variant is. If I had known this when when you called I could have looked this up before we go on the air, but do you do do?

P46 deletes ta. Did a man text p46. Do this remembrance of me that is for you. All right. Evidently with I'd have to get out the majority text. Maybe there's something in the. That text that the na -27 isn't isn't noting I.

I don't see what.

What.

The situation is are you familiar with what the what the reading is. No, no, we can't because now that now that you've raised it now we have to.

Figure out what's what's going on here? I don't I don't I'm not going to interject my thoughts on it. I mean, I wanted to know what the right. I'm not familiar with the NASB as much as you are. In fact, that's why I wanted to ask.

Specifically with the NA hold on just saying rich rich next next to my Computer over there on the left-hand side above is the Byzantine textual platform text. It's red maybe that would have something that the text isn't giving me here, so Since we have a variant and now everyone's going to want to know why that is and so we're gonna have to take a look At it.

So we'll just this is live radio folks, except we're not on the radio. So we'll do the best we can we can do. Thank you, sir and I ran into Maurice Robinson in New York recently and If he hadn't already promised this text to the pastor of the church He would have given it to me, but so I had to purchase it.

Okay, it's only lists the same two. The same two and again take eat this is Okay, Cloman. Okay, there's there's all right. There's There's the variant is Cloman which is Found in okay. Second hand of Sinaiticus second hand of D Margin of 1739 1881 and the majority reading.

Okay, so. Now when you say the majority reading.

What do you mean by that? Well majority text in the Nessie Island is indicative of the broad Byzantine category. It's not always perfectly united but it is the general sigla is used to refer to the Byzantine manuscripts which form the majority of the Manuscript tradition and which of course are almost all post 1000 AD.

Okay, and just to make sure just to clarify when you say the majority you're not talking about the part that majority text, correct? No.

The majority symbol used in the in the textual footnotes is indicative of a broad number of manuscripts, but the Byzantine text type as a whole. So in answer to your question and answer your question the 26th edition of the Nessie Island Greek text does not have That word in it and therefore it would not be Translated and so the NASB is a literal translation of this is my body tahu pair who moan Which is given for you.

No, so. Follow-up question. Why does the the 26th edition omit broken men?

Because it is not because of the textual information that is okay.

And how many just how many manuscripts support the evidence that broken was not part of you?

That's that's one of the the main differences between Looking at manuscripts and weighing manuscripts in other words in any situation where a majority text reading Exists then if you go with numbers, then you're going to have to have a majority text reading.

The vast majority of us believe that the majority text reflects a Particular text that developed in the area around Byzantium and that the reason it's the majority is it has to do with historical reasons?

Not that it was for example the majority text in the year 900 or the majority text in the year 1000. That's that's one of the I think important things. Is that I Really appreciate dr. Robinson, and I appreciate the fact that he and I would share many of the same Concerns about the direction that New Testament textual criticism is going today.

We're concerned with people like And and Dan Wallace and I discussed this just last week on the program. We're concerned with with the fact. They're no longer even looking for the original so on and so forth but where I have not been convinced and remain to be convinced is the idea that the Byzantine manuscript tradition is to be taken over an Alexandrian manuscript tradition simply because There are historical reasons why it became the majority in later church history.

Not.

That's my issue. And and what what I'm concerned about is that the vast majority of brothers and sisters who are being Guided towards putting their confidence in the so-called critical text Is that they're not getting the full story.

They're not getting both sides of the debate and.

They can't pick up books by dr. Robinson or others.

Well, the thing is that they're they're being guided by those who may trust to to put their faith in the critical text. And they're not nothing those individuals who are Hailing the critical thing. Well, you know, there's this other side of the debate really my book.

Gave almost a half page of reference notes. In fact, dr Robinson will testify to you that I wrote to him before doing the second edition and I asked him What would you like to have as a presentation of your best materials in my book and I included it so.

Sorry, that ain't gonna fly with me.

That that's fair enough. I mean it may not fly with you, but that's that's what's happening. I mean, I I come across plenty of individuals of Christians even seminarians who Are so adamant about the critical text and a vast majority of them Even even though they're in seminary don't have any clue what the arguments for the King James Version.

Are that back back back up the back of the truck the heck of the truck. King James Version?

You just switched on is that a lot of people don't. A lot of the seminarians and the individuals that I speak with who? Have an affinity for the critical text are not aware of the arguments for the King James Version.

Whoa, yo, yo, yo, yo, yo you you're a major equivocation here. The majority text is not the King James Version. In fact, the King James Version would differ in 1 ,800 places minimally from the the TR is not the majority text.

So which one is it?

The Texas receptus is received from the majority text the Texas receptus is is has major.

Differences from the Byzantine text platform. It has numerous idiosyncrasies to it.

If you know its history, you know why that was but but if you look if you look at the King James Version Dr. White and the Texas receptus okay, and you put it in light of the majority text you have a much but you have a Translation that is closer.

Of course.

Of course. Let me let me finish. Dr. White, please. Let me finish. If you look at the if you look at the critical text which shares the platform with the Westcott and Hort text. The variations and the omissions that they decided to to pursue have no foundation On on the vast majority of manuscripts that have been found.

Okay, Robert. Robert you call. You call. Okay. Robert. Robert you called me to ask me a question. I've answered the question now. You don't know you don't. I know if you don't want to believe that the manuscripts that are closer and they're the most ancient are Way more in the critical decision concerning readings.

Great. That's fine. That's wonderful. Go out there and promote your your position, but.

You're you're equivocating. Age with superiority and that's not necessarily that's not even a proper use the term there Robert.

Equivocating age. I'm sorry. That's your yes. I am saying that a man is yes. Yes, I am. Yeah, I do believe yeah, I do believe the man is. We wouldn't even have the okay, that's called putting somebody on hold because someone doesn't want to give and take first of all Robert you called here and We have done extensive discussions in the past concerning.

Why I would think that. What is found in a manuscript? Such as p46 or p66 p72 that can be dated as early as 175 AD Has more weight than a manuscript written in the year 1300. There's a 1200 year difference and I think most people naturally recognize.

That a manuscript that is that close to the time of the original has more weight. Because of how much closer it is. Generationally now there are manuscripts such as 1739 and 1881 that are from around the year 1100 and yet clearly came from very early manuscripts, but the irony there is they're not Byzantine.

They don't have that local textual flavor. And so yes, we can definitely I think discuss those things, but you want to know why? There was a difference in the manuscripts a reading in the New American Standard there and I've explained that so thank you very much for your phone call today.

Anyway, it's always helpful. By the way, if you're gonna call in and you want to get into an in-depth subject. Tell the call screener that so I can at least have material in front of me. It we wasted five minutes just to find the material if I had known first green 1124.

Then you know I can fire my stuff up and I can have that stuff sitting there and I can you know try to figure that out and have a little bit more of an intelligent conversation, but. The reason that the New American Standard reads the way it does is because of the text that it's translating now.

He was right about one thing the vast majority of seminary students don't know anything about this at all. No question about it. I don't and but am I not the last person on the planet to complain to about that?

I Try who did I have on the program a week ago today. Dan Wallace? Okay. Why didn't you call Dan Wallace and argue about that particular one? I have done everything I can do and I honestly believe that though.

I do not hold to the Byzantine majority position. I Respect dr. Robinson. I respect his work. I'm appreciative of the perspective there and I have said many many times I do not believe that the if I hold this text here.

I've got the Nestle Ellen text in one hand and here's dr Robinson's Byzantine majority text here if I apply the same rules of interpretation to these two texts I'm not going to come up with two different Gospels.

I Think that's vitally important and I would agree. That's the vast majority of seminary graduates Embrace that text without knowing what the arguments from the other side are. But I'm the one telling people to look at the arguments from the other side.

So you're you're complaining to the wrong person on that one. You need to go talk to the folks who are in seminaries and other places Etc. Etc. Let's talk with Leo in Toronto. Hi Leo.

Good morning, dr. White. Good afternoon, I'm calling from Toronto. I Understand you've paid a visit here before I have yes. Yes. I live not too far from Shabir Ali's Islamic Center. Ah, it is an interesting place and.

I.

This may be an in-depth discussion. I don't want to get into an in-depth discussion, but I just want your opinion on something. Well, I'm calling in regards to some some of Jesus's utterances in a New Testament that had Christian.

I'm referring to the ones that pertain to the belong in a predator realized eschatology. Eschatology. First what is your theological interpretation concerning all of the discourse? Are you a dispensation list or preterist?

No, I am NOT a dispensationalist Amillennialist such as myself would see a major portion of Matthew chapter 24 is having a historical fulfillment and yet there is also a future fulfillment for other Elements of Matthew chapter 24.

In opposition to a hyper preterist or a pantalist Who would believe that in essence all future prophecies in the New Testament have already been fulfilled and we are already in the eternal state which To me is extremely depressing.

Oh yes, I know it's a deplorable position many anti-christian position I would say at that and As I I've noticed there are some elements which I have not been yet yet been fulfilled next of the Oliver discourse such as our founder Matthew 24 13 Out to me that Jesus made some false prophecies as to the person.

I indicate that before I get into these passages I understand that Bart Ehrman has commented on deep. I'm not mistaken. Does he address that at all?

Well, of course, it's very common for atheists and skeptics to attempt to read Jesus's teachings as if Jesus expected his return in and very short period of time In the lifetime of the people who heard his words.

Of course that requires you to not see a near and far fulfillment of prophecy which of course throws out all messianic prophecies, which they reject anyways out of hand as naturalists anyway, but very very common for skeptics and atheists and others to Take a reading of the text that it's interesting.

They will almost always like Bart Ehrman does Put Matthew after the destruction of Jerusalem, but then they make him stupid enough to include false prophecies. Which I find very very weird. But anyway, yes, he does kind of that.

I told my friend.

I don't however, he wasn't convinced. I just don't want to commit any Textual gymnastics here if I'm if I'm to claim that there are some past. Well again.

Look look at the prophecies of the coming of Christ in the Old Testament. Look at the use of Psalm 22 Isaiah 53 Psalm 2 etc. Etc. There is laid down there very clearly a concept of a near and far fulfillment I the the Emmanuel God with us in Isaiah chapter 7 Clearly has an immediate fulfillment within a year of its being given in Isaiah and yet It is not a full or complete fulfillment of that.

So any type of apocalyptic and and prophetic material Bears that kind of nature in it, especially if it is being used to attempt to Cause Christians to always be looking for and living in light of an imminent return of Christ now it has been rightly said that for most of us the Christ returns when our lifetime ends for us that is that's when we meet him but Coming the second coming of Christ to the world is meant to be something that every generation of believers Looks forward to and so how do you?

Talk about that. And do it in such a way that for all these generations there is this constant hope of each generation that God is going to Rule over all evil and he's going to vanquish all evil through the kingdom of Christ Without doing it in such a way that that there are certain generations ago.

Well, it's just not possible. It couldn't couldn't happen in our in our lifetime. We can we can go ahead and be like those unfaithful servants who did not think that their master would return. Which was of course one of the parables that Jesus himself told about his own coming.

So I think it really comes down to whether you want to be fair with the reading and recognize that In writing these things in the gospel narratives the writers are attempting to Communicate the imminence of Christ's return for each and every generation.

How do you do that? It doesn't make sense to me that those who take a liberal perspective would Would in essence say well these Gospels are late but they also likewise are Containing false prophecies why in the world would they do something like that if from their perspective.

They are basically making things up as they're going along on the one hand. It's prophecy after the fact on the other hand.

It doesn't it doesn't make much sense. I mean either you've got to think that Matthew really did believe these things. But that means he must have written them before which which pushes Matthew back earlier.

Or you just simply have to say Matthew's making it up as he went along. But he just was not smart enough to figure out how to do it in a in a way that would be at all compelling.

Yes, and then a passage in Matthew 24 that says that well it describes his appearance of the Son of Man did By no means pass away till all these things take place. Yeah.

Let me let me let me mention something to you Leo Matthew 24 in eschatology is not my primary area. I'm gonna tell you that right up front There are a lot better people to handle your questions about this this is there's certain areas that mainly because I Just don't like the the food fights that people get into about these things that I don't get into a lot of.

But there are some excellent books out there in fact. The fellow who teaches in my place when I'm not at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church Fell by name of Jim Callahan did a whole series going through Matthew chapter 24, and I think that might be more useful to you Than anything I would would have to offer to you right now, but I might be able to to come up with some some book suggestions, too.

But I'll be perfectly honest with you. It's not not my strong area. It's not not my area of apologetic inquiry there are other people who are a lot better in this area than I am so I can give you some of the background issues.

But I think you might want to be looking at some folks who do specific work in that area to to get specifics, okay? Okay, okay, all right. Thanks. Thanks Leo for your call today. I appreciate it. That's just a We've got lots of calls.

I'm trying to get to here as well, but hey I've said many many times There are certain areas. I just go hey you there's folks that are a little bit better at that stuff than I am and That's definitely one of them Matthew Matthew 24 and all the specifics of that Eschatology just is not not my area.

Arabic Bible Translations and the Quran

Let's talk with.

Benjamin in Norman, Oklahoma. Hi Benjamin. Hello. Dr. White. How are you? I'm doing very well. How are you fine? Well, I I know that you've been very busy. I will have given you a little bit of a head notice on this because I called Tuesday after the program had ended unfortunately and I spoke with mr. Rich Pierce, uh-huh.