June 23, 2005

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

Opening Banter and Live Show Setup

And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon 23rd of June. Believe it or not. The longest day of the year has already passed. Can you believe it? We're we're after this weekend.

We'll be getting closer to Christmas than farther away. I Mentioned in channel I said, hmm after after the 25th, we're closer to Christmas when can I start some Mannheim steamroller in the pre pre-programmed feed and Everybody suggested we wait just a little while and of course when it's is it's 107 degrees out here.

And it's just they don't go together. Well, well, but anyway, it's seven seven seven five three three three four one the very mention of Anything regarding Christmas is causing a few people in channel a little bit of anxiety and that's fully understandable.

Don't don't worry. Don't worry. I'm not. I was not suggesting that. I realized I got a little early start last year. But you know, what can I say? Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

And last time We were on the air. Ray and San Bernardino had called and Said well, we'll try to catch on Thursday. So that's what we're gonna do and Unfortunately, I don't have a line in the indication, but I'm going to take a wild guess anyways and talk to Ray.

Hi Ray.

Christian Discernment About Songs and Teachers in the Church

Hey, I'm doing well. How are you today doing good? I've read read your stuff about PC and D and I'd heard the Interviews with with Steve camp and so I was concerned when at my church's a bookstore I thought that they had been selling that PC and D and I brought it up to one of the pastors and he asked me to Send him some information.

So I sent him the article from from the ailment website and He said he'd get back to me, but he hasn't and it's been about a month now. Mm-hmm. And and then in church a couple weeks after that it they were singing a PC and D song and during worship.

Maybe I I mean I can't can't answer for him on that. I would keep asking if you had an opportunity to to look at it and If if the answer you've been given is well, we're not going to worry about it that's one thing it would be nice to be given that in a Formal way rather than just leaving you to wonder and to sort of assume things given, you know.

You can't automatically assume that someone necessarily knows the the province of You know where everything came from as far as if that's a PC D PC and D song or whatever. So, you know extend as much patience as possible, but you know keep keep pressing for a final discussion because Unfortunately the way that most folks have dealt with this is just well, let's just not talk about it and hope it'll go away.

And that no one will will actually, you know discuss it and maybe it'll just you know poof. You know that way don't we don't actually have to take a stand on it and we don't have to offend somebody. So, you know, there we go.

So do you think that?

Just singing their songs. I mean, I don't know who writes their songs. I don't know if Trinitarians write their songs, right? They think about them. I know when my church is singing one of their songs.

They're not, you know Worshipping a Unitarian God. So, I mean, where do you think the line is? I mean should I be concerned that they're singing their songs because I had mentioned him. You know, some people might look into them and be influenced by them down the wrong path.

Yeah. Well, yeah.

That's that is the the question is If you have individuals who are currently actually reading or I'm sorry teaching Falsehood who are being allowed into Evangelical churches, then how do you respond to that if you'd like?

Ray you could drop us a line and hopefully it'll get through to me and I can forward it to a fellow who well to Eric Nielsen who wrote the article on the on the website and who dealt with this in his own church and you could Correspond with him some as to what his experiences were obviously in the in the situation I'm in this isn't much of an issue in the sense of we're there's really no danger of this taking place in our church, but He might have a little more Background on that to me that the main thing though is is you can't just put it off to the side.

You have to deal with it one way or the other you have to explain what your position is and basically say well We're not going to worry about what the backgrounds people are because let's face it I mean We don't know what the backgrounds were of a bunch of people who wrote a bunch of songs that are in our hymnals, right?

And in fact, there are some that are that are. You know, there's one I can never remember what it is for some reason that there's certain certain facts in life. That my brain has stored on bad sectors of my hard drive and no matter how hard I try I can never remember which one It is that but there's one very well-known hymn that sky man and channel keeps saying was was written by someone who Was certainly not orthodox in our theology and hence it does put a Different spin on what you're reading and that becomes really the question at that point Should we just simply say well, I'm going to read my own meaning into anything that I'm singing or doing or whatever.

Or is there something more? Is there a difference between someone who's? Him written by someone who's been gone forever. I thought it was faith of our fathers, too. But I I'm not I don't remember exactly but anyways do it if someone's dead.

Does that matter or is? The fact they're still alive and in fact are teaching these sent these things, you know. Those are all issues that have to be raised, but they need to be raised and answered not just simply dismissed so, you know, I would just patiently because a month isn't a long time and You know being an elder in the church.

I I always recommend the extension of as much grace as possible to those who are elders in the church because Sometimes we just forget stuff and all of a sudden, you know Somebody'll come up to me and say hey Jim remember when I talked to you about this Saturday thing remember when I asked you to do this and I just like No, I've forgotten and and so on so forth.

So, you know give him some give him some time drop him a little note. Maybe leave a little note in the front office or something. Hey, have you had a chance to you know? Think about this that of the da and You know always make sure that whenever you Are dealing with situation like this that that you're extending as much grace as possible and and then then go from there.

But drop us a note so I can get you in touch with with Eric. Okay. Thank you very much. All right. Thanks for calling. God bless. Eight seven seven seven. Someone just gave me a URL. Sorry. I can't see that thing over there I just cannot reach over to it there, but he's on the other line right now.

I just Coach just excuse me drop this and channel This is just too funny to not point out. Sorry art, even you will have to laugh at this and it gives the URL to my blog where we have the art suppo picture.

Let's say I guess it's not adding this so far no responses. From from art suppo to the but then Sloop John E Looks at the the cartoon. I'm talking about the cartoon the art suppo cartoon on the main page right now.

No, no doubt suppo would we laugh at it not to mention also at the reality that someone over at ailman org needs to get a life. I Find it somewhat odd that someone posting on a web board Would say that someone who has the kind of artistic talent.

That's a that's an angel has needs to get a life. But anyway, I I thought it actually communicated something. I thought it was pretty good. Well anyways, let's go to Howard in Kansas. Hi Howard. Hi, dr. White.

How you doing good?

Imputation, Original Sin, and Romans 5

Yeah, it was good to meet you at that Wilkin debate, and I thought you did a very good job.

Well, it was um you know I wish we had the DVD, but that's that's gonna take a while. It's it's unlike the Other DVD that we're just about to have I guess. Have out.

It looks like it's up on the web page. Yeah.

Okay, I just thought tomorrow. I guess we're just finishing up. I guess it's a burning issue. It's not a Anything else, but that one's gonna be really really challenging. Tomorrow's the release. I'm told That's gonna be really really challenging because we're the only way and and I I want to see it get done.

Obviously there's a lot of stuff We need to get done. But that one's gonna be really tricky because we have to put the PowerPoints in the only way if you really To get the full sense of what took place in that particular Encounter is to see plane crashing into the ground and I see of shacks that are about to fall over and and yeah.

That's and prison prison. Signs by the roadway, and you know I did. Did he go look look for those signs. Did he get these off the you know you know it's sort of wonder. When you think about the debate preparation we were both do.

They're rather different kind of debate preparation. One guy is running around with a camera Looking for pictures to take and the other guy is trying to put biblical passages together with an odd.

Odd thing. So anyway, so what's up? Well, I have a question about imputation and I started to ask you about it and challenges that a better comprehension of. With the doctrine of imputation like that when I was talking about the life of Adam versus the life of Christ and when it comes to imputation it's clear that when Adam sinned well.

Again it is always best used biblical languages language in these situations. Imputation is a Legal and forensic term that is primarily used of the imputation of the righteousness of Christ to those who are in him now.

We can we can use that in a in a theological discussion To refer to the reasons behind what you have in in Romans chapter 5 and the nature of original sin these are all theological Constructs that are seeking to do justice to biblical passages but we need to be careful that you don't take the the terminology that comes from theology and Read that back into the biblical text.

So that you aren't aware of the fact that Imputation is used Biblically in this way and theologically in this way. This is the biblical foundation of the theological use. Many people learn their theology first and just simply Read that back into the text and say well, you know, we believe X Y Z and therefore I'm going to Assume that these terms in Scripture mean this or I'm just going to assume that this terminology is used here and so on so forth and so when we do that We end up with apologetic problems and people come along and start questioning our theology they start questioning our positions and when they point out our Inconsistency in our terminological usage that can really throw people for a loop.

So it's just a matter of being careful in how you're utilizing that. And it's sort of like when people talk about well God Elected men to go to hell. Well, the term election is always used only in a positive fashion in that way in discussion of salvation in Scripture.

And so someone is taking a term and they are using it in an unbiblical way. And then they make that parallel an identical parallel to the positive election of grace. Well in the same way. When we talk about the imputation of the righteousness of Christ We have to look at exactly how the term imputation is used and in fact the very phrase imputation the righteousness of Christ not used in Scripture.

We're talking about the imputation of righteousness on the basis of faith. But it's in the context of for example Romans chapter 5 where those who are in Adam Receive from him that which is all he can give that is if you're in Adam You you sin you're a sinner you have death if you're in Christ you have life, etc, etc and Since a parallel exists then in theology we use that terminology, but we need to be very careful.

When we use that terminology to to be very specific in In how we're using it or we end up we end up with problems so Romans 5 is starting verse 12 is is the Key text in dealing with the particular issue that you are referring to you have sin being imputed in verse 13.

But it's being that you know that becomes the context there of the use of imputation and then just I'm not sure if you have a particular term in mind, but I'm just scrolling down here just checking the The text and you'll notice that that's that's the only place.

The term that he actually uses later on is Made sinners in verse 19, right? That's the verse. I was actually questioning. Yeah, but the context starts up in in 12 therefore justice through one man sin into the world and death through sin and so death spread to all men because all sin for until Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed that that's actually being used there primarily in the forensic or legal concept and then you have the discussion of death and life and the Contrasts and parallels verse 15.

The free gift is not like the transgression in verse 15. The free gift is greater than transgression something a lot of people miss at that particular point.

Maybe my question would would be clearer because I have had a discussion with a Roman Catholic Acquaintance who tries to say that Protestants believe that men who are declared righteous go to heaven declared righteous.

But all you have is a bunch of wicked sinners who are just merely declared righteous. And so he's hearing it merely declared and so my question is basically looking at you know There's something we receive from life was a Good description or poor description and because we have the life of Adam and his infusion It was even though I possess Adam's life.

It's Adam's particular sin. That's come down to me.

Is that inaccurate way? Well, well what I would say in that context is what what Paul is clearly saying here is. You have two humanities in Romans 5 you have the humanity that is an Adam you have the humanities in Christ and life Is actually limited to being in Christ there what you receive from Adam's death, right?

And what you receive from Adam is is in the realm of sin and death Whereas you have life and righteousness with Christ. That's the contrast that's being drawn between the between the two and All of us start in Adam, but if you're in Christ, then you receive this other so I wouldn't refer to the life of Adam being being yours as his descendant as so much as I would the the Spiritual death of Adam as your descendant that's he can only transmit to you through your your forebears the Spiritual death that was his result of sin.

So in regards to what he's saying You are right that you have the proper sense that That the very phraseology being used by Roman Catholic friend is inaccurate and that they're really taught that by their apologists to in essence.

Because Rome Puts together justification and sanctification and confounds them confuses them does not see the proper distinctions between them as a result. They see what they hear what we are saying and sadly, I don't know if you've been following the blog they are almost always getting their understanding of what we believe from their own leaders and Frequently those are former Former Protestants who somehow completely lose their understanding of their former theology and they become Roman Catholics for some odd and strange reason.

But that's where they're getting their sources. They're not actually listening to R .C. Sproul. They're actually listening to John MacArthur Preaching on the radio. They're getting this from other people and it's presented to them as as this this strange dichotomy where you go to heaven as the way you just put it as these These wretched sinners who haven't been changed at all and it's easy to go to scripture and see it talk about holiness and all the rest of stuff and You see the balance having been at the Wilkins debate because that objection Pretty much, you know would be true of certain imbalanced viewpoints but the Bible is very very balanced and it recognizes the fact that well, you have to distinguish between justification and Sanctification you cannot separate them from one another you cannot Take them apart and say well God's gonna do the one but he's not going to do the other.

It's clearly his will That those who are justified based upon the finished work of Christ their behalf. That's the imputation part are going that you've got regeneration and you have you have sanctification going on there.

Sanctification normally in the New Testament is actually positional. It's actually a finished thing. It has very closely related justification at that point, but then there is this also this growth in holiness.

There is this experience this being conformed the image of Christ and sometimes the terms.

That was they hear if you were explaining that aspect of sanctification to them. Are they going to be hearing infusion and.

You can't you can't worry about that. I mean, there's absolutely nothing you do about what they're going to hear outside of. Recognizing the danger of that and making sure that you as clearly as you can.

Distinguish between the idea of an infusion of righteousness that results in their being intrinsically pleasing to God and that's the ground that they're going to heaven and The biblical teaching that the righteousness that I'm clothed in is a perfect righteousness.

My growth in holiness my experience of holiness does not add anything to that. It is actually the result of that. It does not it is it is not a synergistic Joining that. I'm growing my justification increasing in my justification, you know.

It's my duty to start off by saying X Y Z. Here's what justification is. Here's what my standing is before God. It's completely and totally in Jesus Christ.

And then is it that perfect life then that is a perfect life of Christ that Paul is speaking of in Galatians. Where it's it's his it's Christ's life that is being lived through us. So you mean in Galatians 2 20, correct, I mean the life I live.

I live by faith. I don't you know, I don't want to give the idea of infusion of righteousness. But is it is it that perfect righteous life that the Christian receives not just in a declaration sense. But in a in a sense that Paul says that and that I don't.

I don't think I don't think that's proper use of Galatians.

220 I don't think it's the point he's making there. The point is making Galatians 2 20 is that he has died with Christ and even though he has died the life that he lives. It's it's a spiritual life and it's not that it's he's trying to make a parallel there between.

The righteousness of Christ imputed to him and this this term life. He's just making a contrast there between crucified dead but I still live yet even in my living it is Christ who's living in me and.

And that life is only done by faith. It's not that my added works are going to somehow add to what Christ has has done or that these added works that I'm going to do now somehow make me more justified because his conclusion is if righteous come by the law then Christ died needlessly and.

Obviously his opponents would have found that to be a compelling argument. That is they were not saying that Christ died needlessly. They were not saying that the atoning death of Christ was irrelevant.

They said it was relevant, but it wasn't enough in and of itself. So you can't be overly concerned about about what someone's going to hear in the sense of well I don't want to say that even though it's biblical because they might hear me saying this.

No, you keep that in mind you try to in a dialogue see if they are Misinterpreting you you try to express yourself as clearly as you can beforehand because of what they're saying. But you can't you never want to avoid using the proper biblical terminology.

Just because someone because there is no Christian doctrine that has not been perverted by someone. See you later there. Did we just still there? Nope, I think that's what happens when a cell phone battery dies.

Either that or the the very same twister That appeared in wizard the Wizard of Oz just hit, Kansas again and and Howard there will. Will wake up someplace else and say to Toto. We're not in Kansas anymore, so.

Anyways, thanks for the call Howard you you just went poof. Oh there and we will. Yeah, he fell into the ocean from Kansas yes fell off the mountain in in Kansas. Yeah, that was that was that was a little bit odd, so anyways yes, that was that was the tornado that just pulled pulled him up.

That's that's interesting crimson Catholic who is someone we know well. Just chimed in on the envoy message board and Says ah yes I recall his tasteful portrayal of our esteemed host as a worshiper of the Golden Calf and that's a picture of Patrick Madrid and If he keeps it up, maybe one day.

He'll be as funny as Jack chick's death cookie tracks on behalf of Catholics I can sincerely say we're not laughing with you. We're laughing at you. Well. Thank you crimson Catholic of course so far everyone has managed to miss the real obvious point and that is Art Sippo is is a man who uses Adhominem Argumentation and he likes to try to bully people and that's that's sort of what it was all about.

Anyhow, we'll see if any more. I'll just keep refreshing this thing during the course of program 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is we're getting a lot of calls today. I did want to mention by the way I do have More of the Adrian Rogers discussion queued up someone wrote to us and said hey you shouldn't discuss Adrian Rogers because It's been announced that in his retirement that he also has some form of cancer.

I think it was colon cancer, and I said you know as soon as someone said that I'm like Well first of all we would certainly pray that the Lord be merciful to Adrian Rogers. But if you think we shouldn't discuss this.

Because Adrian Rogers has colon cancer. That is the very attitude that I just can't begin to understand. That's the very attitude that when I heard when I heard that Norman Geisler had said to a Radio talk show host that I should not have written the Potter's Freedom because this was between him and R .C. Sproul.

I'm like, what are you talking about? Theology isn't between anybody. I'm not reviewing Adrian Rogers as a man. This isn't personal. This is about the truth. It's not about me, and it's not about him.

It isn't Personal. It's about what we're going to teach in the church. It is about how we are going to present the gospel. It's not personal. How many times do I have to say that it isn't personal? It's not about Adrian Rogers.

It's not about Patterson. And it's not about Rivas and it's not about any of the others that we have that we have played Comments from and responded to it's not personal. So why would we stop dealing with something that has been said in a context like that?

It's not Personal it's about what we're teaching and preaching so That's not gonna stop me once we you know we clear the lines and of course. We're hoping if you've been looking at the blog We haven't heard from Ryan L yet.

And that may just simply mean that Ryan L's wife is having a little Ryan or something like that and certainly we would hope that Everything goes well there if we were not hearing from him, but he indicated that he might in fact Be willing to call in today.

If you haven't been following the blog then then you know that Ryan had had some some statements to make concerning me and identifying me as an anti-catholic and various and sundry other things like that and Actually said this morning that he might call in if you'd be you know if he would be available to do so in light of I guess the fact that his that his wife is About ready to give birth and so I gave him the the I think very sage Advice that if in point of fact She's going into labor don't call okay, that's just you know that's not a good thing that you do not want Your your wife to remember the rest of Of Your life that you missed the birth of a child because you were out Doing something what on earth is that?

Someone Just said that I am the Sean Hannity of Calvinism. I'm not sure that that's a good I would much rather be the Rush Limbaugh of Calvinism personally if you don't mind I mean I do sometimes Shake paper and We we I've got angel, and I think angels fairly close to some of the parodies that rush does and I'm not sure that that I want to be the Sean Hannity of Calvinism, but then he posted that horrific picture that Dave Armstrong created Sorry just playing around a bit.

I saw that on Dave Armstrong's blog. And yeah, so it's I'm not sure who this is, but I'll take a look at it later on. There's there's some weird stuff out there on on the internet. It's it's an odd odd place before we take you know.

I'm looking at the time. It wouldn't be fair to put somebody on and then take our breaks. We're go ahead take a break and then come back and We will talk with the David and then move on with Adrian Rogers or take your phone call eight seven seven Seven five three three three four one.

We'll be right back.

Man such a rarity today. Many stars strong and true quickly fall away.

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How the pilgrims progress it's not an easy way it's a journey.

Church of Christ Claims About Acts 2:38 and eis

And welcome back to the dividing line now we're taking your phone calls today and We'll be getting to a little bit more of the Adrian Rogers thing at least like to get to the section where it sounds so Bad get the part where it actually sounds good.

We're fairly close. We'll get there, but let's Talk with David in Texas. Hi David. Hey James. Hi. How's it going? It's going. Yeah a.

Little bit cooler here than is there I think.

It's been a little toasty recently. No, it's alright whenever I feel hot because it's in the 90s here.

I listen you in Chan or watching channel 814 or something like that, and I feel a little cooler. There you go.

Well, yeah, but you guys got a little more humidity than we do so I'm not sure there's a whole lot of advantage. But and then again you are in Texas and and you're stuck with the Cowboys.

So what can I exactly what I need some sort of personal refrigeration device for my utility belt? Yes. Oh, yes.

You know utility belts are. So they're very special. Don't you think they are. I'm glad. Superhero I need. I need one. I could. You know, I could use one during the debates. Exactly.

I really have your. You have your gizmo your palm pilot my gizmo.

Right there on the utility belt and we could have other electronic gizmos that would be relevant to the debate. So I think that'd be good. Yes, exactly. Exactly. I can't I can't be a superhero without one.

Exactly. I don't think so. You know, no one has a clue what in the world we are babbling about but the people in channel do anyway.

I'm not on my computer. But if I haven't been kicked out by a certain Spidey geek by now, I'm surprised.

I'm even in danger of getting kicked out by a certain Spidey geek right now.

Anyways, I've been doing some online discussions with a certain group. People I think it seemed to be a magnet, you know, if this type of this group Church of Christ. Yes, and I think the last three years I've been dealing online with two or three different individuals.

And I didn't want to get back and you ever I guess you had these moments where you didn't want to get involved. But then something is said and you just got to respond Yeah. Yeah, and this had to do with Acts 238.

Uh-huh, which is there one of their I guess they're a big three passages big four passages and the comment was made by this person that the the preposition ice Down this passage meant unto which is there, you know, they're assertion and that it always means unto.

Okay. Without you know without exception. Mm-hmm, and I couldn't really let that one go. So I went in and I actually posted several passages in English that contain that word and Said that these are not used that way and he said that words not found in those passages.

So I Actually found out that he was using strong. Yeah.

Nothing, nothing unusual about that. It takes a while to to do a meaningful study of 2 ,000 112 appearances In the New Testament of of ice. I just pulled him up in Bible works just like that.

But you know and I gave him two two passages. I gave him the one from.

By the way, you were just kicked. I just wanted you to know that. Okay, I'll great. You'll reciprocate when you get back. I Just love it hard to kick her sometimes. I've done it many times. I that doesn't hurt at all.

Yeah, okay.

And by the way, my son's about to have a meltdown. So, oh, okay. But 1132 where talks about how they repented at the preaching of Jonah Obviously, it does not mean unto the preaching of Jonah, you know, we're into now.

What was that man? What was those reference on that? 1132 look 1132. Oh Luke. I think it's an accent singer going.

Okay, of course his first search was the word that was not found in there and when they like both of the Greek and showed Him that it was. But my question is not really about that. My question has to do with the fact that I you had mentioned at one point in channel.

And this was just in passing that acts 238. There may be some historical significance that passage. That maybe we're overlooking. We're looking at just the you know, the preposition there that maybe there was an historical.

Well, there's always a danger especially with a group like the Church of Christ that. You know when you have one verse, you know, some people might say all of John 6 that same way for me, but it's not I mean I could do Romans 8 and Romans 9 and Ephesians 1 and you know there's all sorts of places you can go they they really don't have a Any place else to go outside of just a very small number of passages.