Defending the Faith & Tales From the Street

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00:00

Non -rockabotas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it!

00:07

Are you going to bark all day, little doggie, or are you going to bite? We're being delusional. Delusional, yeah.

00:15

Delusional is okay in your world view. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional.

00:21

So you calling me delusional using your world view is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt. Is he hung up on me?

00:32

Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

00:44

Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives. Don't go into the world and make homies.

00:52

Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke, pastor.

00:59

When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

01:20

I wish you would bear with me in a little foolishness.

01:31

Do bear with me, for I feel a divine jealousy for you since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.

01:41

But I'm afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts would be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

01:50

For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.

02:03

That's 2 Corinthians chapter 11, y 'all. Welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio. This is the gospel heard around the world.

02:10

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04:42

Make sure you do it as soon as you can. Bonson you at apologiastudios .com. I'm Jeff, the Combinator Ninja. That's Luke, the

04:47

Bear. What up? And that is Jerry, the Girl. No, I'm joking. That's Jerry. We never know these days.

04:53

That's Jeremiah Roberts from Cultish. I'm one of the co -hosts here. That's right. That's right. And so we are doing a special show today.

05:00

This is, what did I title today? Defending the Faith and Tales from the Street. I saw that.

05:05

I feel like we're going to go straight west side. That's right. West side, Tales from the Street. So we've been doing our

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Mormon Easter pageant evangelism over the last week or so at Apologia Church. Finally.

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Finally. They opened it back up. They've been closed down for years, and we've been a bunch of sad saps around Easter and Christmas because we can't do what we love to do the most, and that's engage with the

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Mormon community and give them the gospel. So they opened it back up. Pageant's back on. It's bigger than ever.

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It's a big musical now. Speaking of West Side Story. I love a parade. It's straight

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Barry Poppins up in there. Right, and they definitely upped the ante on special effects. I looked over,

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I think, right into the first part of it, and it looks like a whole sequence where they're out at sea, the whole calming the storm, and they had totally changed.

05:52

They had all the lighting and everything. I was like, wow, this is really a little up. They've upped the ante since the early 2000s, slash late 90s when we first started doing that.

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They also removed some very important Mormon doctrine from it. Yeah. Sneaky devils.

06:08

You sneaky peats. So we're going to talk about defending the Christian faith. We're going to talk about some foundational things today, some important things that really go across the board, whether you guys are doing evangelism and engaging with your

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Roman Catholic friends or family or whether you're talking to Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses. Hopefully we get to talk about at least two points today of emphasis, the issue of authority and the issue of the gospel itself in terms of how is a person reconciled or have peace with God.

06:32

We'll tell some tales probably from the street this last week, and before we do that, I'm going to kick it over to Pastor Luke.

06:38

Tell us what's up. So we've been mentioning it. We're very excited about our new sponsors from AR500, and today

06:45

I have the Firebird. I don't know which camera I'm supposed to be in, but the Firebird Bulletproof Backpack, that one right there.

06:53

The red one. Which is really, really cool, and our security team loves this.

06:58

And so, yeah, it's got some Kevlar in it. It's pretty lightweight. You should go and buy yourself one.

07:05

But I can't help but mention that the Armored Republic, the mission is to honor Christ by equipping free men with tools of liberty necessary to preserve

07:12

God -given rights. In the Armored Republic, there is no king but Christ. How cool is that, by the way? Don't you love it? Yeah.

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We are free craftsmen. Body armor is a tool of liberty. We create tools of liberty. Tools of liberty.

07:23

I love it. Kevlar, guns. They don't make guns, but they'll protect you from guns. But they are tools of liberty.

07:29

But they are tools of liberty. This is true. Yeah. So you can visit them at armoredrepublic .com.

07:35

We are very excited. Say that again? ArmoredRepublic .com. I didn't hear you. What did you say? Armored? I was hoping they make ghost guns.

07:43

No. Let's not say that on YouTube. Let's not say that, yeah. That was a joke. That was a joke. YouTube, don't really believe that.

07:49

That's not a thing. All right. So, hey, one more thing before we get started today with the show. First of all, welcome to everyone who's watching us right now on the live stream.

07:57

We have some important things that are happening right now with End Abortion Now. For those of you guys that have been with us since the beginning, this is momentous.

08:06

It is a very big deal. What's happening across the country with us not only raising up churches and saving lives on a daily basis outside the mills, that's happening consistently, and it's happened because of your prayers and your support.

08:17

So thank you, thank you, thank you. But I want to give a word of encouragement to you about what's happening. Some of you guys have been with us since the very, very beginning of this.

08:24

You've given. You've prayed. I want to inform you about the fruit of your labor together with us.

08:30

So we have got a bill in Louisiana. Sorry, Louisiana.

08:36

And we are going to— It's about to be Winziana. You know what I'm saying? That's right. Winziana. I like that. That's not

08:42

Louisiana for us. We are going to Baton Rouge, the state capital, on the 30th for our rally for the bill of equal protection.

08:51

We've got a bill there that would criminalize and end it immediately in Louisiana. And the 30th is our rally.

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It's at 10 a .m. at the state capital, Baton Rouge. Please come join us for that. But here's the good news. We just got word the other day that the—I'll make sure

09:08

I'm saying this right— the Louisiana Conservative Caucus or the Conservative Caucus of Louisiana, one of those directions, they just gave a thumbs up to our bill, our bill to criminalize and end it.

09:19

We've never had this happen before. In a state, it is tremendous because the legislators that we need to vote for justice for these preborn children are a part of that.

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And so this is a very big deal. Please pray for it. The next four weeks are really going to be consumed with what's happening in that state.

09:36

We're hoping to even go testify at the hearings. We did get confirmation from the person who's in charge of one of those things that there is going to be a hearing on our bill.

09:44

It's HB 13, I believe. HB 13. Is that right? I think so. HB 13. I know what the bill's about, but I forget that there's so many bills.

09:50

I forget which one's which. HB 13. Yeah, I know. There's so many numbers, I get them all. I know. It's hard to get them all together in your head. So big praise to God.

09:57

So thank you to everybody who has been a part of this, truly, since the very beginning. And I do also want to add one more word.

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You hear me saying a lot when we do things like this, hey, our all -access partners, you're making this possible.

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So thank you, thank you, thank you. I just want to let you know there's end abortion now, but Apologia Studios does everything with end abortion now and for it.

10:18

And so it's our all -access partners that are also helping to make everything possible with EAN. So if you're seeing content, like last night,

10:25

I'll give you an example. Last night we were on the street at the Mormon Temple. 813, sorry. 813. HB 813.

10:31

HB 813. Yes. I think that's what I said. Did I? I think you said HB 13. Oh, did

10:36

I? Okay. I don't know. You may have said it right. But anyways, just to clarify. So last night we were at the Mormon Temple in Mesa. And, by the way, big shout -out to Isaac and to Carmen.

10:49

I mean, truly, you've seen some of them before, guys. They're in the background constantly. We have a great team here.

10:55

Right now we've got Gabe Green on the ones and twos. We've got Kyle Pointer.

11:01

We've got Forrest Emery. We've got a great team. But I wanted to say a big shout -out to Isaac and Carmen for the work that they put in over the last week.

11:10

I mean, honestly, they've been working around the clock to update our systems to where when we live stream, we're hopefully not going to have the issues we had before with lagging or the stream being killed because we just can't get communication with the satellites or whatever.

11:24

We got a new system that uses like four different signals. So if one fails, we've got three more.

11:31

It just combines them all. They spend a lot of time in getting it, getting it working. We also got some new equipment where if you saw last night when we're out doing evangelism, we've got a team out there.

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We can mic up a bunch of guys to get multiple cameras that we can switch live between conversations.

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It's really cool. And so I want to say praise God for Isaac and Carmen and the extra work they put in.

11:53

I mean, honestly, they've been here like day and night trying to get this stuff working. So you guys, they're passionate about you seeing the content and being blessed by it.

12:00

So they invested all of it this week to make that happen for you. But our All Access partners, you honestly, last night when you people saw that stream and it's going to change people's lives,

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Christians and Mormons alike, it happens because it's a joint effort of ministry, all of us together.

12:16

So thank you, thank you, thank you. Okay, so let's move into the discussion of what's going on at the

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Mormon Easter pageant. So Jerry and I met for the very first time. When Jerry was,

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I think, 16, I was 18, something like that. Something like that. 1996 at the Mormon Temple. You were working with Alpha and Omega Ministries at the time.

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You were out there with them. I was out there all by my lonesome, but we ended up doing evangelism, never met each other in our lives, never even spoke to each other.

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But you and I both started ministering to a Mormon out there. We just ended up sort of like being pushed into the same conversation, had never even spoken to each other, and we were giving them the same

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God, the same gospel. And then we were like, hey, nice to meet you, and we departed and met years later.

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But that was 1996, and we've been going consistently. So I just realized, it's 2022.

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That means this is 26 years. Yeah. Is that right? 26 years for me.

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Wow. Yeah, 26 years for me. A long time. Over half my life. That makes you really old. Over half my life,

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I've been going to the Mormon Temple in Mesa, Arizona. Obviously, it's been closed for three years, but the point is, it's been a long time of ministry.

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Well, even looking back, you think about just the number -wise, usually it was around 10 to 1 as far as how many

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Mormons were out there wanting to engage with you versus how many Christians. And so I remember being out there with you, and it was you and I versus probably about a dozen

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LDS folks who were talking with us. That happened a lot. I ended up being surrounded. There was one time I was surrounded, and it was my first time being out there.

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I think I was 15. And I remember one time I was completely surrounded, and I didn't really know how to answer this guy of what he was bringing up.

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It was my first time being out there. And all of a sudden this hand comes down on my shoulder, and I look up, and there is

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James back there. He had this Indiana Jones -type hat, and he kind of looked at me and smiled, and he kind of saved me.

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Did he have a whip too? He didn't, but thankfully he kind of took in and took over the conversation.

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Did he touch you? Did he go, anyway? Anyway. No, but he did afterwards.

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After the whole thing calmed down, he said, I was like, well, that was your first baptism of fire.

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Hope you enjoyed it. Yeah. So it was a long time ago. So a lot of fruits. Well, I guess the big thing that's a big –

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I saw James this morning. He did an early dividing line and probably trying not to compete with us or he's on the road today or something.

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He was really, really encouraged. It was so great to see him. You could tell he was very, very encouraged at the fruit that God has brought from his labor and his ministry because we were out there last night, and we have so many members of Apologia Church who are out there serving, and they're so effective and they're so gracious.

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They know the word. They know the Mormon community. They know their beliefs. So they're engaging with them in a way that has a lot of integrity, but also they're doing it with a lot of love.

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But we probably had over 40 people out there last night on the street with us from Apologia where we really had to tell everyone, you've got to spread out.

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We can't stand in one spot. They kept telling us we were blocking the sidewalks. Just our people. There were so many of them. Yeah, and so we had to tell everyone at the beginning, like, look, we've got so many people.

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We've got to spread out. Some of you guys go down to that street. Some of you guys go down to the west side where the opening of the temple is.

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Some of you guys go across the street over there. Some of you stay in the middle because there's so many of us, and we're running out of tracks.

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I mean, we've got to order a bunch more. I already ordered them. Okay, good. I knew you would. I knew you would. So I think the first night we were out there, we handed out an entire box almost before the show even started.

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Yeah. It was like 1 ,000 tracks. Like 1 ,000 tracks. And so God's just been so gracious to us and blessed us.

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And, you know, James this morning was, you could see it, that he was so encouraged. And he was, I don't know, did you guys see it this morning?

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I didn't. No? So he was talking about the fact that, like, there's so much fruit from this. And, you know, he was actually going, like, a step back.

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He was saying, like, well, I was doing this in terms of James. He was saying, I was doing this because of the investment of, like, the

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Tanners, Gerald and Sandra Tanner. And he said, like, our first time going to Mormon General Conference, we drove through the night and we arrived at Sandra Tanner's house in the morning, took showers, put our suits on, and then went to the temple.

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Had taco time. Probably had taco time for sure. But he was saying, like, you know, the fruit of his ministry came from Sandra Tanner.

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Wow. And then he was talking about, like, what's happening now with Apologia. I just finally met her, by the way. Did you? I know

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I did. I saw that. So cool. Isn't she great? She's so sweet. She's so sweet. And such a blessing.

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I don't think people, many people today who are just maybe just diving into this discussion of, like, evangelism to the

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Mormon community really understands the debt that we owe to the

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Tanners because their stuff was, like, original gangster.

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Like, I mean, they go to the temple or the history department of the Mormon Church. They're, like, you know, they're photocopying stuff.

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I mean, they're just spending hours and hours and hours in original Mormon publications and documentation to get that information into people's hands.

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And, you know, that was a big blessing to James. It was a big blessing to me. Like, when I was, I think, I know for sure, without a doubt, when you and I first met in 1996 and I was on the street and I had my backpack, without a doubt,

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I had my backpack filled with resources from Gerald and Sandra Tanner. And those were big books.

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They were huge. Mormonism shat a reality. It's a giant, it's a block. It's not a book, it's a block.

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It's not pretty. Yeah. None of their books were pretty, but they were just fat and it was, like, photocopies and photocopies of original documents and all that stuff.

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Because it was important for the Tanners to not just make claims as quote -unquote anti -Mormons, but to say, like, look, we used to be

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Mormon, we came to Christ, and here's, this is the text. This is from the church. Like, this isn't just a claim about your church.

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Your church teaches this. Here's what they actually said. Here's what was done. And so I had my backpack, like, all their materials because when you talk to Mormons back then that actually wanted to argue with you, they wanted, they saw you as Gentiles, they believed what the

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Book of Mormon says. There's a church of God and a church of the devil and all your creeds are an abomination. They believed that. They wanted to engage with you when you would tell them, hey,

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Joseph said this. They would just be like, no, he didn't. And you'd have to pull out the documentation just because you didn't have

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Google. You couldn't pull up your phone. You couldn't just get a quick PDF of it. Like, you had to have it with you and carry it.

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I remember James did. He had big stuff that he would carry out there. Was that during his bodybuilding days?

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Well, I've seen, yeah. I've told you about this. Like, I've seen James transform from nerd, uber nerd scholar stage to.

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Which he's kind of always in, but not the way he looks. Yeah, not the way he looks. Physically looking. His appearance. He's insane the way his brain works.

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But he looked like an uber nerd scholar to, you know, all of a sudden he comes out and he's beefy

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Weitenegger. You know what

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I'm saying? Like, he comes out and he would be resting. He'd be resting his arms, like, on his breasticles.

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He'd just be like, you know. Well, not only that. He was all barrel chested too.

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So there would be times where there were, like, Mormons who were upset or kind of aggressive. Because he would just kind of, like, bounce them back a little bit.

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Yeah, he's. Maybe we'll explore this space. Yeah, so. What do you explore this space? But it was funny, like, the way that James used to be when he was all beefy bodybuilder.

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He wouldn't have needed Pastor Zach to come to his defense with the atheist in Utah when he was like, show me, show me, show me.

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And Pastor Zach's like, why don't you show this man some respect? Pastor Zach, if you guys watch that video where Pastor Zach tries to come in because we did the debate with the atheist and he comes up and he's all nasty.

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He's like, hey, how you doing? Show this man some respect. You got to give this man some respect.

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Back up. Show him some respect. So anyways, nerd scholar stage to beefy bodybuilder to bicyclist.

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And I've seen them all the stages. All the stages. What's also interesting, too, you talk about just the progression of being out there at the

20:26

Easter pageant. There's always been something going on with people on staff trying to interfere with our outreach.

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Let's tell some stories about that. Tales from the street. So before we kind of get into this, there's an incident last night

20:38

I'll talk about in a second that's on our live stream. But when I first went out there, the first,

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I think the first two years, what they tried to do is that they had some bigger guys who were in the play.

20:49

They're playing Roman centurions, but they decided to go out there on at that time on the east corner and try and hand out pamphlets to the people coming over in order to interfere.

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Try and refer them to them versus having us giving them tracks. And so I remember

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I wish I had taken photos back then. I think there's a couple of times where I saw James White talking with a guy who is twice his size.

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This guy who's probably like six foot ten dress completely head to toe like a Roman centurion trying to hand out the

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Easter pageant flyers, which is also interesting to learn things. I remember particularly is that there was a on the flyer.

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There is a poem. It was like a poem to the savior. I remember I was reading through the very first time I was out there and there's a stanza that said,

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I saw him from Gethsemane where he bled from every pore. And from there he began to atone for my sins forever, more and more.

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So that was. So that was one example. You can't even remember where you put your wallet. I didn't ask for these powers.

21:52

But you remember that. Yeah, I know. Right. I was like, I wouldn't remember that. I have these like isolated areas of memory superpowers.

21:59

But, you know, apparently I don't remember where my parents are. And that and that's where you can relocate my Mazda car.

22:05

I'm not looking for that. But so that's one example where you'd see earlier doctrine kind of like slipping in a little bit.

22:12

It's a lot even it's even more subtle these days. And so, you know, this time we had issues on Saturday where they were trying to because now it's sort of on the east side.

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It's on the it's on the west corner. Yeah. Where we are now. And we have some people on security. Nice people.

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And I think they're just trying to, you know, they believe they're doing the righteous thing, trying to offend against us. But they were trying to say we could only stand on the very, very edge past the fire hydrant, like right against where the cars are zipping by because everything else is church property.

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So we double check the zoning districts. And I came back last night and showed them the paperwork.

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And literally. So last night, as Oscar is talking to that gentleman and I've got the microphone next to me, there's about 13 security people, including the head of security, all like around the paperwork that I handed them saying this is the zoning district.

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So they're in charge of protecting their church property. But they're all unsure of where the actual line is.

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And so he comes up, this guy, one guy comes up to me and he's trying to tell me, no, that's actually back over there.

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And I said, no, it's not. It's like you have you can either get a tape measure yourself or you can bring a police officer.

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And so we've talked a lot about lesser magistrates. So it was a great opportunity to where righteously, I would say, no, you're trying to be unjust and for something that's out of your jurisdiction.

23:31

I would like a higher magistrate, please. They actually made the sidewalks wider, which is helpful for us.

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But I did. I have those because like the last few times we were there after, you know, Jeff knows for a while, like it was the same security people.

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They knew us. Yeah, they knew we weren't trying to cause trouble and, you know, they would talk to us graciously and there was no never any.

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Yeah, it was more issues with the Mormon cops when we'd have issues with. But this year it's like it's a whole new crop of security team.

23:57

And they're like trying to, like, you know, intimidate us and stuff. And I'm like, bro, I've been here. We're coming. I've been coming as long as you.

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But I forget it. Fifteen years. The funny part at the end is that one of the security guys

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I talked to afterwards, he said he goes, yeah, actually, my day job is that I'm a I'm an attorney.

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And I specialize my my I specialize in zoning districts. So he said when

24:19

I saw them doing that, he goes, I'm I'm I'm basically pulling a Pontius Pilate. My hands are clean of this. I'm not touching that.

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So, yeah, even Craig, you know, we love Craig, our friend, our Mormon friend, Craig. He even was like he even told me he's like there to make sure that they're not harassing us.

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Yeah, it's security people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Those were all new guys. And I came over on point. I was like, hey, you know,

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I'm I'm I'm leading this group. Yes. If you have any questions, ask me. I've been here for 26 years. I said we've we've dealt with this before.

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They were really upset that I was starting to engage with the police. Like, we got it. We got it. I was like, OK, I'm just letting you know, like, you know,

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I can tell you what the Mesa Police Department has told us for the last 20 some odd years. Like, we know we know how to do this. We're going to respect your property.

24:57

We're not going to be on your property handing anything out. But we know where to stand. We'll be out of everyone's way. But, yeah,

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I mean, I mean, especially early on, I'd say like, I don't know, anywhere from like 1996 to 2004. That's when we really had the most conflict with security, where they would try to get us off.

25:12

They would be waiting. I mean, waiting for your foot to touch the wrong part of the grass and ready to arrest you.

25:18

I had a friend of mine who was a cop with Mesa PD and he ended up taking the job that night, the extra work to like, you know, be a cop there and all that stuff.

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He walked up to me and I won't say his name because I don't know if he's still working for Mesa PD. But he's like, hey, he's like, how are you doing?

25:35

I was like, oh, my gosh, I didn't know you were going to be here. He's like, yeah. He's like, hey, take a look over my shoulder right now. Don't make it obvious.

25:40

Just look over my shoulder right now. And I was like, OK. He goes, you see that group of police officers looking at you?

25:46

I was like, yeah. He's like, they're all conspiring to arrest you.

25:51

He said, so I'm just I'm letting I'm letting you know that if your foot touches that part of the grass, they're going to come and they're going to they're going to take you.

25:59

So I'm just letting you know they're all Mormons and they're they're working to try to get you arrested. So one of the earlier.

26:05

Yeah. The first time I actually went out with you, there was a time at the east entrance on the east corner where everyone was leaving.

26:14

And I asked specifically, I said, hey, I don't want to be in the way. Where where can I go? So I'm not in the way.

26:20

And I said it. So and I asked one officer, is it OK if I actually walk around this one corner to get over there?

26:26

That's all I'm going to do. And so I got one officer's permission. And he says, yes, that's fine. And so I walk around.

26:32

So I'm just walking around and all of a sudden somebody grabs my wrist and kind of yanks me back.

26:38

And next, you know, there's a shorter police officer and he's like looking at me. He is fuming like his blood is boiling.

26:45

And I just said, what's going on? I'm just trying to get over there. The other officer over there. And he goes, are you trying to get smart with me?

26:51

And he's like, I'm and he's just basically threatening to arrest me on the spot. And back then, I think we had one bazooka camera.

26:58

And so you actually jumped in and you said you pointed to so -and -so. And you're like, so -and -so grabbed the camera. And then all of a sudden he got kind of, you know, he kind of backed down.

27:07

So you got that sort of situation. I do think the one thing that substantially changed, we've had this conversation before.

27:14

Back then in the early, in the late nineties, early two thousands, they really knew their doctrine.

27:20

They were very consistent with their first icebreaker was the great apostasy.

27:26

And the fact that Joseph Smith's actual vision is that all the other professors were corrupt.

27:31

All the creeds were abomination. God cites that we're in the truth. You essentially are Gentiles. You are not in the truth.

27:37

And not only that, the majority of people when the play would start, who would come out were missionaries who were willing to engage.

27:44

They were passionate about their faith and wanted to talk. I think one of the main things which has changed substantially is that one, they don't know their doctrine.

27:54

You have, and I've had this, I've coined this phrase, you have to pre -convert them to Mormonism many a times.

28:00

But even this year, I feel like it's something has changed even the last three years compared to when we went to Salt Lake City to the

28:08

LDS conference at the beginning of 2019 to where there is this spirit of indifference among these are supposed to be the missionaries.

28:19

You're supposed to be the representative of Christ's true church on earth. And you're supposed to be a

28:24

Mormon missionary. As Jesus said to his followers, I will give you words which your adversaries will not be able to speak against.

28:32

And I cannot tell you, I have not had one missionary willing to actually engage in a conversation.

28:39

I don't think they're allowed to. I think they'll get in trouble. Yeah. To me, it's stunning because I've seen the polar opposite from 20 years ago.

28:48

Yeah. No, for sure. And my son, Stellar, was out there last night. Evie was out there last night too, Luke's daughter.

28:53

But they've been raised out and they've been raised up on it. Raised on the streets of Mesa.

28:59

Yeah. But he was out there handing out tracts and he engaged in a conversation with some people.

29:06

But when we left last night, he said, man, I can't get these more missionaries to even talk.

29:12

He's like, I tried to engage a few of them and I just asked them simple questions. I gave them like a Bible verse and they just didn't even know what they believed.

29:21

And then they walked away. And I just said to my son, I said, Stellar, can you imagine a

29:27

Christian missionary behaving in that way if somebody came to us and wanted to talk about the gospel?

29:32

He's like, no, it would never happen. He's like, how could a Christian missionary abandon the opportunity for a gospel conversation?

29:40

He's got my son's seat. Yeah. And it's not even an attitude that, hey, I want to talk to you, but I'm not allowed to.

29:46

It's complete rolling the eyes, complete indifference. I mean, we had a situation, I think, on Saturday where one of them, where it's like, hey, we'd love to talk to you about Jesus.

29:56

I mean, you're missionaries. Can you please talk to us? They're like, no, not interested. I'll see you in heaven, bro. Like that's an actual.

30:01

What was that? Yeah. That person that we heard that one missionary was like, how you doing, bro? Like kept walking.

30:07

We were like. Right. I will still try to engage more missionaries, but I feel like, yeah, there's this real sense of indifference that they have that, yeah, you did not see 10 years ago, 12 years ago.

30:24

I mean, it was always difficult to even then get them, come on, come on, talk to us, talk to us. But now, yeah, it's just like, we're fine.

30:30

You're fine. We're good. It's like, well, guys, what are you teaching people on your first lesson? Isn't it the first vision?

30:37

And doesn't that say that all their creeds are abomination, the professors are corrupt, they draw near me with their mouths, but their hearts are far from me?

30:45

You know, like, let's talk about that. Let's engage. But, you know, I think maybe it's possible. There's some sense in which, you know, the videos that, say,

30:54

Apologia and other ministries have put out of the engagement with the Mormon missionaries on the street, that that's caused such a problem for the

31:02

Mormon church that they've probably, maybe they've told their missionaries, like, do not engage. Yeah.

31:07

Because it has caused devastation to the Mormon church to see the missionaries out there as representatives of the church getting refuted with the

31:17

Word of God, not just from our ministry, but from all kinds of ministries that film that content. And so maybe, you know, like I said, just,

31:24

I'm just suggesting. Well, also, I think there's a financial incentive. If you have somebody who's attending an

31:29

Easter pageant and they are a temple -attending, tithe -paying, loyal Mormon, and they come to Christ, let's just say they're making, you know, 200k a year, and all of a sudden they not only leave, but they stop tithing that, that's a huge financial loss.

31:43

And somebody's got to pay for the new 17 temples that Russell M. Nelson announced at General Conference.

31:49

So I think there's that aspect because they did shut down, even prior to COVID, almost all of the Easter pageants, even the one up in New York, the really famous one by Joseph, where you went up with James White.

31:59

Oh, yeah, yeah, the one in Palmyra. The Hill of Camorra. Yeah, like almost all of them have shut down.

32:05

Permanently. Yeah. And I think one of the main variables in play was the fact that this was a time where Christians would come out and they would see that.

32:13

But not only that, you know, think of all the people who have come to Christ. You think about the video, the feisty girl talks about Mormonism, or even like Dan Tate, you know, who was out with me last night talking to some younger men who were my age back when the first time when

32:27

I was out there. They know like these videos that we shoot out at these locations, these are being uploaded and the one we did last night already has 10 ,000 views and people come to Christ because of that out of Mormonism.

32:40

They're watching them, yeah. They realize it's problematic. I met two, well

32:47

I met some ex -Mormons last night that came to Christ as a result of watching our content. They came to the temple to say hi.

32:53

I met a guy who said that he is LDS but he's being challenged by our videos now and he came out to visit and talk with us.

33:01

And so God is truly using that content to bless and to change the world for sure.

33:06

And a good point, I mean like Daniel was out there last night as a member of the true body of Christ.

33:13

He's in Christ now and his history, you know, to God's glory is up on our channel where he comes out that night.

33:20

We're on the street and he says, you know, I'm being challenged by this stuff. And then he comes to Christ.

33:25

He's been growing in Christ for several years now and now he's out there on the street with us. Feisty Mormon girl.

33:32

Oh yeah. You know, shows up what three years later here at the studio to say, you know, she's been watching the video of their interaction, of the interaction and now she knows the church isn't true.

33:40

Yeah. You know. And I just want to say too is that, you know, we have 40 some odd people out there and every single person has their unique and distinct gifts in regards to how they evangelize.

33:51

And so there's probably some people who kind of think, well, I have to be, I have to be Jeff Durbin in order to be out there.

33:56

Like, no, you have to just be you. So even, so even last night when we started engaging with these three young men across the street in the park, you know, initially

34:05

I was trying to do an icebreaker and I kind of felt like that, you know, older, I mean

34:11

I'm 40, but like that hip youth pastor trying to relate to the youth and they're just not getting it. So I did my icebreaker with them and they're just like,

34:18

I don't get what you're asking. I'm like, oh no. And so Dan Tate was right next to me like, Dan, you want to usher over?

34:24

So all of a sudden he broke the ice talking about, you know, them and being in their boy scouts and some things about them in their priesthood meetings.

34:31

And so they immediately connected with that. So even in this area, all my experience being out there,

34:37

I mean, I just was not, it was just not, it was not fitting with this conversation. But Dan utilized, you know, his skill set of how the

34:44

Lord's worked in his life and it ended up being a very, very fruitful conversation. Yeah, that was, I think probably one of the greatest gifts over the last week for me.

34:52

I'm sure Luke, you feel the same way about this is, you know, so much time and investment being out of the temple.

34:58

You know, there's times where we were out there with, there's no cameras. It's just us evangelizing Mormon community, spending tons of time with them, hours and hours and hours invested in people preaching the gospel and at times frustration because there's no other

35:10

Christians out there with us. And we're like, man, there's so much fruit here. I wish the church would get out here. We could win all these

35:15

Mormon people to Christ and to the truth if we just have more people with us. But there's so much time invested like that.

35:21

But the last week I've been able to go, you've been able to go. And honestly, we've been able to just sort of just be present and watch all of these other believers with so much courage handing out tracts, even down to little kids handing out tracts.

35:38

Clementine's evangelizing. James' granddaughter's evangelizing Mormon cops in a way that only she can where she's literally boldly challenging them.

35:47

And they're dying laughing because she's so charming. And tiny. And small. And in the last night even,

35:53

I get to sit and watch members of our church handle the Latter -day Saint with so much love and so much truth and so much boldness.

36:02

And I don't have to, it's almost like you feel like, okay, praise God. Like, I think, okay,

36:09

I think we did some of this right. Because I don't have to be the one doing it. And these people don't have to be

36:14

Luke. They don't have to be Jerry. They don't have to be me. I get to sit back and watch God by His Spirit uniquely use each of these believers in all their giftings.

36:23

And it's truly, but with the same message. With the same message. It's truly an encouraging thing to see. Yeah. And I think as well, too, that when you go out there,

36:31

I mean, a lot of times even in today's really post -Christian, post -modern society, the idea of going out and preaching and doing evangelism is just, it's very unpopular, just culturally, but even among evangelicalism.

36:43

I mean, people are just like, why don't you just go and start a bunch of relationships? You can do that. I mean, there's, there's, you know, a bunch of my neighbors are

36:49

LDS and things like that. But I think ultimately, you know, when we're out there, it's, it's probably some of the most enjoyable, loving conversations that you can have just being there and, and talking to them.

37:01

And I think also what's really important is that you have to, you have to have the right motives of being out there.

37:07

Like you, you're going out there not to be right, not to win an art, to say, hi, I won the argument, but you want to see these people legitimately come to Christ.

37:14

Cause I had it last night and it's happened before when you're hitting them with scripture and they're looking you in the eyes and with their, their eyes tearing up and they start bearing their testimony.

37:24

And all of a sudden, you know, something's going on internally, you know, ultimately that's a spiritual battle going on.

37:32

And like, and that moment, I mean, I think some of the biggest ways that how is, is even ministering, like as you're giving them the gospel and as you're refuting the things that they're saying, giving them scripture is to show that I genuinely care about you.

37:45

And it's, and I think when you, when they actually see that and like you, you generally care for them, like it's burdened for me, it's burdensome for me.

37:53

Like when I see, you know, however many thousands of people out there seeing this false gospel and like, you know, there's one moment where I think, you know, there's a little girl up on stage and see, she's saying some little cute stanza in the

38:10

LDS temple. It's like, you know, from their vantage point, this is cute and adorable and all that.

38:15

But at the end of the day, like this is a false gospel. It's sending people to hell and this, this isn't something we should gloat over.

38:22

It should break our hearts and it should. And so, but yeah, I mean, just, just being out there in the atmosphere, it's one of those things that it doesn't, it's not until you actually go out there and experience it.

38:33

And I'm so glad so many people at our church got to see this for the first time.

38:39

Because I mean, hearing them all these years later, it had such an impact on my life, even now to this day.

38:45

Oh, for sure. It's one of the best times of my life for out there doing evangelism in the Mormon community. You bring up a good point and just about the loving, loving them, the loving nature of a lot of these conversations.

38:55

Now that's not to say, this is really important, it's not to say that that, that that's always the aim is that it feels good.

39:01

There's always emotional connection and love and all that stuff. Yeah. That the aim is to preach the truth, but, and it's not to say that you're not ever going to get hit.

39:09

I mean, that's happened to us. Like people pushed us, spit on us, thrown stuff at us. Yeah, that's happened. But honestly, out of thousands and thousands of hours, like it's, it's like there's few and far between.

39:17

That's like rare, rare, rare. But the most common is like what we experienced even last night.

39:23

Like the, you know, you, you have a good conversation, you give them challenges and maybe you exchange numbers, maybe you meet them later, you hand them something, they go home and they think about it.

39:33

And like even this conversation I'll play for you guys right now. This is someone that the three of us have known for many, many years.

39:40

His name is Stephan. And actually, if you look through, I wouldn't even know what the titles of the videos are.

39:46

There's so many of them. But I know if you look through our history of videos of us engaging with Mormons, you'll see Stephan in there several times.

39:52

There, there was people that, that even when they, he was out there, I saw him not last night, but the night before for the first time, someone was like,

39:59

Oh, is that Stephan from the videos? Yeah. Right. So he's in a number of our videos. Like there's a video even with Ivy Connerly.

40:06

He's in with us. Yeah. And you know, so I think Jerry, you were saying that the first time

40:12

I met him wasn't with you, you weren't there? Not the first time. It was, it was probably the second time. So it's like 20 some odd years ago.

40:19

I'm out at the temple. I was in the West side. I may have just been alone that night and I met

40:24

Stephan and I remember that was the night where he threw himself against the gate, right?

40:30

That told you that story or what? Did you witness that story? I forget. I witnessed that story and, and I witnessed,

40:37

I was, I knew that story. So the second time I was, I met him, I was prepared for what happened.

40:42

Okay. Yeah. So Stephan, we've had a long, I've had a long relationship with. I, I was saying to him last night,

40:48

I feel fairly confident about this, that I have spent more time evangelizing, challenging and speaking to Stephan than any

41:00

Mormon in my life. I mean, I'm talking like some nights we'd be out on the

41:05

West side of the temple with Stephan until like two in the morning, one in the morning and for hours and hours and hours talking to Stephan, giving him really strong challenges.

41:15

There's some funny stories with Stephan. I won't go into all those stories. But last night Stephan showed up.

41:21

He showed up again. Temple's back on. Eucharist is back on. And he showed back up.

41:27

And I'm going to play for you guys this. I find it to be very sweet interaction between Stephan and I last night outside the temple.

41:34

Here it is. Stephan. Jeff. Well, why?

41:42

Of course. Why? We're getting angry at you all these years. You have kicked my Mormon butt for the past 20 years.

41:51

And the Spirit has said, Stephan, you're wrong for getting angry.

42:01

Okay? But I want to thank you for coming.

42:07

Well, thank you for blessing me. Because what has happened is that I've gotten stronger in the

42:14

Bible, the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, as a result of you kicking my butt.

42:23

See, when I got through, you know,

42:29

I was in. So you can see, I just got to point it out. You can see Luke. Keep that screen up there,

42:37

Gabe. You can see Luke. You just saw Summer. You can see Carmen behind me. You can see

42:42

Evie, Luke's daughter, right there. She's got the beanie on with the blonde hair. And you can see

42:47

Clementine's kids there. You can see Katie there. Summer's kids. Yeah. Did I say

42:53

Clementine? I'm sorry. I meant to say Clementine. Yeah, Summer's kids. You probably said that because she looks like Summer when you probably met her.

43:02

Let me tell you right now, guys. I'll tell you right now. This is the truth. If you want to know what

43:07

Summer looked like as a little girl, Clementine. I'm telling you right now, it's weird.

43:13

Seeing Clementine out there, it reminds me of when I was out there and Summer was small like that.

43:19

I mean, it's like having her twin out there. But this is

43:24

Stephan, and I thought it was a really cool interaction. I'll play some more for you.

43:30

Stephan tends to do this. He'll tend to change the subject, and he'll go off on rabbit trails a lot.

43:36

You know, if you watched the interaction from last night with Stephan and I, you'll see, I think, this is after 20 -some -odd years of evangelism and really hitting him hard with some stuff.

43:47

He's getting very old now, and I think the main thing I wanted to communicate to him last night, and you'll see it, is that you've received so much light,

43:53

Stephan, and you and I are getting closer and closer to the day where our eyes open and we're before our Creator. I'm worried about you because you've received so much light and you're close to meeting him, and that's an important thing.

44:07

And so I'll play a little bit more of Stephan here. That first night,

44:13

December the 1st, 2002. Is that when we first met? We were over there?

44:19

On the west gate of the temple. And you were telling me all these things about exegesis and eisegesis.

44:28

Mormons and Christians use the same words but have different meanings. And I'm having all this cognitive dissonance going on.

44:40

And so what happened was I went home and I started looking things up.

44:46

For instance, Mormons and Christians use the same words but have different meanings. Right. So I looked it up, those six words, and I found a website called

44:59

Christian Apologetic Research Ministry run by Matt Slick. So my question now is, did

45:07

Matt Slick get that from you or did you get that from him? The conceptual thing of using the same language but meaning something different.

45:17

I think that... Where's the source of the denial?

45:23

I would start... That's a very good question. By the way, of course, I've never even...

45:30

Forgive you, of course. I love you, Seth. Seriously, you're one of my most cherished memories out here.

45:36

I love you, too, because that's why I pass out Bible reading plans and I encourage people to read the whole

45:42

Bible. Yeah, which I've always appreciated about you. So you asked the question, where would the idea come from of using the name

45:49

Jesus but meaning something else, right? So 2 Corinthians 11, Paul uses that concept when he says that he's worried about those

45:59

Christians in Corinth, that they'll be deceived by the subtlety of Satan who will give them another

46:07

Jesus, another gospel, another spirit. And he says, basically, he says, you might even put up with them.

46:15

And so he's worried about that. And, Stephan, we would both agree this is not a point of dispute between us. That's very early on in the history of the church.

46:21

I mean, the church in Corinth, Paul dies... So the conversation you guys can all catch right here on this channel.

46:28

It was just live last night. I think it's going to be the video right after this one in the feed.

46:34

And you can watch a number of conversations that took place, long conversation between Stephan and I.

46:41

But pray for Stephan, because it was interesting. You'll hear me saying the conversation with him. And then, Jerry, did you want to read that comment in a second here?

46:48

Yeah. You'll hear me say to Stephan, like, look, Luke let me know last night that you were here.

46:54

And I was hoping you'd be here the next night, which was last night for me. And I did.

47:00

When Luke sent me that picture, I was like, I really hope he shows up again. And I thought about him all that night. I thought about him when

47:05

I woke up in the morning yesterday. I thought about him throughout the day. And I was thinking, Lord, like, what do you want me to say to him?

47:11

What should I say to Stephan? And that was the main thing on my heart was, with Stephan, you and I are getting closer and closer and closer to meeting

47:18

God. And you've received so much light, so much light.

47:25

But you can see the conversation between Stephan and I. At times in the past, it's got very interesting and heated.

47:31

But Stephan and I have a very loving relationship with each other. We care about each other. I love the man.

47:37

Last night was, for me, was, look, I've spent hours with this guy going into the original text and challenging his belief system.

47:44

So the main thing for me last night was really to communicate my love for him and my concern for him that he's received so much light and he's about to meet

47:51

God. I had a conversation with him too, and I was like, man.

47:58

When I first saw him, it was like I didn't recognize him. And then, you know, it was like, oh yeah, I think that is

48:03

Stephan. But yeah, it's just, yeah, he doesn't have much more time. I think that's really the heart we should have with anyone.

48:08

Because whether you're 15 or if you're his age, you don't know when it's your time to face your

48:15

Creator. And that's the importance of taking what's out there. So I just noticed this on the most recent video you just mentioned.

48:23

This is actually a YouTube comment that's directed to you, Jeff. So I'll read this. This is posted on the

48:31

Evangelism Outreach video from last night. This person says, Charles Cruz says,

48:36

We call upon Jeff Durbin to stop fighting against Jesus Christ and his church. We ask him, in the love of Christ, to humble himself before God, to repent of his sins, to accept the biblical

48:47

Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior, and to finally become a

48:52

Christian being baptized by those who hold the proper authority of God. And then he quotes

48:58

Mark 16, 16, He who believes and is baptized will be saved. Do you have a response to that, Jeff?

49:05

Well, yeah. Do you have an apologia? Yeah, I do. I think it's important to look at this from two different perspectives.

49:12

One is the perspective of what the Word of God actually says. The Word of God preexisted Joseph Smith and his revelations, his claimed revelations.

49:21

And the Word of God says, and we can do this all day, In Jude, verse 3, Earnestly contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

49:29

Once for all delivered to the saints. Jesus says he would build his church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it.

49:35

The Bible, in Daniel 7, 13 -14, says that the Son of Man would be given dominion, kingdom, and authority that would never pass away.

49:42

It's an everlasting kingdom. Jesus taught that. The apostles taught that. And so when Joseph Smith comes along 2 ,000 years later and says that the church fell into apostasy, disappeared from the earth, and it needed to be restored, that is something that goes against the testimony of the apostolic witness and the

49:55

Lord Jesus himself. The Old and New Testament deny any possibility of something like that taking place.

50:01

And so, fighting against the church, the Bible commands us to test all things, hold fast to that which is true, earnestly contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

50:10

You can look at the MO of the early leaders and apostles of the church in the book of Acts. They would go to the place of religious worship in Acts 9, and they would argue and dispute there and prove that Jesus was the

50:21

Messiah. The apostle Paul would go to Mars Hill, to the Areopagus, and he would command them to repent and to trust in Christ, and he would engage with their false religious system.

50:31

The apostles would go into the world and preach the gospel and the claims of Christ, that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation.

50:38

Jesus said, I am the way and the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me.

50:43

So Christ is the only way to salvation. But as I said to Stephan, 2 Corinthians 11, the apostle

50:49

Paul says it's possible to have a false Christ, a false gospel, a false spirit. And Paul says in Galatians 1 that if anyone comes and preaches any other gospel, or if an angel came from heaven with another gospel, he says that that is under the curse of God in Galatians 1.

51:05

And so this issue is primarily a biblical issue where we're commanded to engage with it. But I would also point you to your own apostles and your own prophets.

51:14

This is from Orson Pratt, 1854, The Seer, page 15. He says, if we cannot convince you by reason nor by the word of God that your religion is wrong, we will not persecute you but will sustain you in the privileges guaranteed in the great charter of American liberty.

51:30

We ask from you the same generosity. Protect us in the exercise of your religious rights. And here it is. Here's Orson Pratt, inspired apostle of the

51:38

Mormon church. Convince us of our errors of doctrine, if we have any, by reason, by logical arguments, or by the word of God, and we will be ever grateful for the information, and you will ever have the pleasing reflection that you have been instruments in the hands of God of redeeming your fellow beings.

52:01

That is an invitation from an inspired apostle, according to the Mormon church, in the

52:07

Mormon church, telling us, convince us of our errors of doctrine with reason, scripture, and we'll be forever grateful.

52:14

And that's exactly what we're doing. And please, please do remember. This is very important. People make claims like that.

52:19

Please do remember that Mormon missionaries ride their bikes and drive in their cars and walk door to door on a daily basis globally, and when they knock and they tell people the first lesson, what they say is that God said that all the creeds, all the beliefs of the

52:35

Christian church are an abomination to him, and all the professors, that's those who profess faith, those

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Christian professors are all corrupt. They draw near to God with their lips, but their hearts are far from him.

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And so let's please remember that it's the Christian church, in this case with Mormonism, that is on the defense against their claims about God and revelation.

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And so it is us who are defending the truth. It is the Mormon church that has stricken the first blow without question, and the greatest act of love that we can show to anybody who is following a false system, a false

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Christ, a false God, a false gospel, is to tell them the truth. And we are doing so, in this case, by divine invitation by God and by invitation of the

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Mormon leadership themselves, Orson Pratt, the seer, page 15, 1854.

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Now also, another question I have, maybe to assert in regards to what this comment says here, it says that you need to be baptized by those who hold the proper authority of God.

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What they're talking about is the fact that they have the priesthood authority. Specifically, they have the authority of the

53:54

Melchizedek priesthood, and you have to submit yourself to that authority. That's what they're asserting. So are they on to something here?

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Are they on to something there? Or how do you respond to that specifically? Because that's what they're appealing to in this comment.

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They're appealing to the fact that, let me read the comment here. Make sure I'm addressing it exactly the way he's asking it.

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So he says, To those who hold the proper authority. We ask him in the love of Christ to humble himself before God, to repent of his sins, to accept the biblical

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Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. I have, and that's the point. So responding to that, repent of sins, accept the biblical

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Christ, that's the point, is that we accept the biblical Christ, the biblical

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Christ of John 1, who, The one who was always existing alongside the

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Father in face -to -face intimate relationship from all eternity. The one who is

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God. The one who created everything in existence, and without him nothing came into being that's come into being.

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That includes Satan, by the way. That's a different Christ. In Mormonism, not the biblical

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Christ, Elohim has sex with one of his goddess wives to produce Jesus and Lucifer and the other spirit children.

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So Jesus comes into existence as the spirit child of Elohim in the pre -existence.

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That's not the biblical Christ. That's Contra John 1, 1a and b.

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But in biblical theology, Jesus created everything, whether thrones, dominions, rulers, or authorities, everything in the heavens and on the earth,

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Colossians chapter 1, 16 through 18. And so we are following the true Christ.

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It is the Mormon Jesus that is not the true Christ. So when you say accept the biblical Jesus Christ, that's what we're doing.

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That's the point. And that's our main point of contention against the Mormon community. But then he goes on to say,

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Well, the issue of authority,

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I think, needs to come two directions. Number one, how do I know what the authority is?

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Where do I go for solace in terms of what's the ultimate authority? The apostles are dead.

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They're all dead. They're real apostles. They're all dead. They died. They're with the Lord now. So they died, and they were called by Christ as apostles.

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They gave us the revelation of the word of God, and they're dead. So the only way to get back to the apostolic teaching of Jesus Christ is to go to their inspired writings, which preexisted

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Joseph Smith by about 2 ,000 years. So in terms of ultimate authority, the only way I know what the apostles thought and taught by inspiration is by going to their writings, the word of the living

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God, and to test Joseph's claims and Brigham's claims by the word of God.

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And by the way, again, Orson Pratt encourages us to do so. He will convince us of our errors of doctrine by Scripture, and that's precisely what we're doing.

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But in terms of authority, the Mormon Church claims a restored priesthood.

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They claim the Melchizedek priesthood, which if you read Hebrews 7, the

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Melchizedek priesthood, if you read the word of God prior to Joseph Smith's perversion of Scripture in Praxis, you'll see that in Hebrews 7 it says that Jesus Christ is

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Melchizedek and that that's the high priesthood. He holds that priesthood forever, and it's a priesthood that does not pass from one to another.

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So how are all these Mormons getting it and passing it on from one to another? If it's

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Christ's priesthood, if he holds it forever and it doesn't pass from one to another according to the inspired word of God, how are the

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Mormons getting it? So in terms of priesthood authority and the authority of the Church, the question is, how do

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I know that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God and has authority, period? Because that's where this all centers.

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Because I agree that the Church has authority. I agree with that. That God's Church has authority. God gives local pastors and elders, multiple elders over local congregations.

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You have gifts in the Church. You have all of that. And the Church does have a delegated authority under the ultimate authority of the word of God and Christ.

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Got that. We're not disputing whether or not the Church has authority. No question there. But the question that really has to be asked behind this is how do

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I know that your prophet has authority from God? And the answer is, I only know that based upon God's revelation about how do

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I actually test this prophet. I can't say, do I have really yummy feelings in my belly about this prophet.

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Mmm, I like him. Feels good to me. I mean, subjectivism is popular today, but let's not call it biblical.

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I mean, because you can line the transgender activist, the LGBT person, the

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Mormon, the Muslim, the Jehovah's Witness, and the Christian scientists, line them up, and they'll all tell you that they all have yummy feelings in their hearts and bellies about their religion and their experience.

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And they feel, though I have all the male parts, I feel like a lady, right? Don't mind the beard.

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I feel like a woman, sort of a thing. I feel it inside. Subjectivity is super important today to everybody.

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And it's popular, but let's not call it biblical. Because God says in his word in Deuteronomy 13, Deuteronomy 18, 20 through 22, he says the way you know someone's a prophet is based upon not their signs and wonders, not if it feels right, not if it looks right, but do they lead you after a different God.

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So in other words, if they contradict God's previous self -disclosure, his prior revelation, they're not a prophet of God.

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If they lead you after a different God, they contradict God's word, they're not a prophet. Second test is if they have false prophecy.

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They try to tell you the future. Before it happens, they fail. God says, that's your indication.

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They're not a prophet. If they have one failed prophecy, clearly they're not from the sovereign God because the sovereign

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God wields history. He controls the future. He can tell you the future before it happens and get it right every time. Fallible men can't do that.

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So Joseph Smith claimed authority from God as a prophet. He fails God's test every time in terms of what he says about God, what he says about the gospel.

01:00:02

He perverted the word of God. He taught polytheism. He mangled the doctrine of justification in his

01:00:08

JST translation. Just look at JST translation of Romans 4 and then look at the real

01:00:14

Romans 4 and see how he completely mangles it. He distorts the nature of grace.

01:00:19

And so when someone says, like, come to the church with authority, it's like, well, how do I know your church has authority? Your prophet fails the test of a prophet through and through.

01:00:27

And so I think hopefully that's a good start to the conversation. I think most important, taking a look at the foundations.

01:00:34

Absolutely. I would agree 100%. What would be some examples? Like what have you noticed just from being out here?

01:00:41

We talked about the change in regards to what Mormons bring up, like in conversations versus when you first started all those years ago.

01:00:49

Do you have any other examples? Well, I was just going to say, and we're actually at an hour, so we can't get too deep into this, but one thing that's made this so difficult, and you have that, they don't care anymore.

01:01:03

The older Mormons, like Craig or like Stephan or some of those other guys, yeah, they care.

01:01:10

But a lot of these younger guys, and I actually was talking to Craig about this last night, there's so much postmodern, woke, transhuman, homosexual nonsense coming out of Provo and BYU.

01:01:22

A lot of the younger generations, they don't care about what their prophet said. They could dismiss it. They literally say, well, he was wrong.

01:01:28

I don't care. And there's the guy, Hayden. I don't want to get into it now, but Hayden that Daniel and Oscar debated, he's been out there a lot.

01:01:37

And just the stuff he says, I'm like, he needs to become Mormon before we can even have this conversation.

01:01:43

Not even like what you're talking about. His beliefs are so postmodern, they're not even

01:01:48

Orthodox Mormonism, and it just makes it really difficult to even have a conversation because everything's so subjective, even beyond their prophets and stuff.

01:01:57

If time travel was allowed, I would love to do some sort of podcast where we could have two Mormons get together from the

01:02:03

Mormons that we met 20 years ago versus the ones now. I told Craig he needs to talk to Hayden. Yeah, I wish there was a

01:02:09

Mormon multiverse podcast and just have them talk. Mormon from the 70s, a Mormon from the late 90s, early 2000s, and have someone like Hayden today because it's so night and day.

01:02:20

And it's hard because, as we wrap up here, because they're so confident in their assertions, but they're totally oblivious to the fact that we looked at people just like you who believed just the polar opposite of you 20 years ago before you were, say, when you were super young or before you were even born.

01:02:40

Yeah, and I think even last night our friend joking about turning the heat up on me because he was just getting me used to the fire,

01:02:51

I think he really believes that because he's an old -school Mormon. Yeah, he would. Right, he would. And so back in the day they would tell us, you're a

01:02:58

Gentile, you're of the church of Satan, yeah, what you believe is an abomination, no, we're not Christians, we're

01:03:04

Mormons. And they would say to me, yeah, you are definitely going to outer darkness. That place of punishment, you're going there.

01:03:11

That's for apostate Mormons and those who kick against the goads like you. You're fighting our church, you're resisting our church, so you definitely are going to outer darkness.

01:03:21

Now, I mean, I'm hard -pressed to find a Mormon that'll tell me, have enough love to tell me, yeah, you're going to hell,

01:03:27

Jeff. Well, Hayden said literally the only people that will be in outer darkness is those who have a direct witness from God himself and reject that.

01:03:38

That's the only way, and I was just like, wow, things have changed. Yeah, very much so, very much so.

01:03:44

All right, everybody, thank you so much for watching. We did not get to some of the stuff we were talking about.

01:03:50

I wanted to do in terms of authority, foundations, and defending justification. Maybe next week we'll do that on the show, but we definitely want to get to that very important stuff, foundational stuff.

01:04:00

And I think we'll probably have lots of content to go through after this week of low evangelism, so we'll probably play some video clips for you.

01:04:06

At some point, we'll give you some highlights. We'll give you a highlight reel of what took place at the Mormon temple this past two weeks.

01:04:13

Please pray. Please pray for what's going on in Louisiana right now. Very important. If you guys just got into the broadcast, we've got so many good things happening out there.

01:04:22

We've got our Bill of Equal Protection, and that's to criminalize and abolish it out there. We've got the approval of the

01:04:27

Louisiana Caucus for Abolition. That surrounds our bills out there.

01:04:34

And I'm flying out to Louisiana next week. I'm going to be posting on my channel on Facebook and on our

01:04:40

Apologia Studios the details of where we're going to be next Tuesday. So next Tuesday is...

01:04:46

What date is that? Next Tuesday... So next Tuesday at 6 p .m.

01:04:52

The 19th at 6 p .m. at a church in Baton Rouge. We're going to be there holding a special meeting.

01:04:57

I'm flying out specifically for this and some other stuff on that day. But I'll be in Baton Rouge 6 p .m.

01:05:02

at a church. I'm going to post where as soon as I find out to mobilize believers in that state to get them ready.

01:05:09

Luke and I both are going to be out in Baton Rouge at the Capitol on the 30th for our rally at 10 a .m.

01:05:16

So please be there for that. Please 10 a .m. not 10 p .m. You'll be very upset because no one's going to be there. It might be a little crazy in Baton Rouge at 10 p .m.

01:05:23

I would imagine maybe so. I'm not sure. I've never been to Baton Rouge. I'm not sure if it would be crazy. But please be in prayer for the opportunity we have right now to have a hearing for our bill in Louisiana.

01:05:34

So praise God for all his work. Sign up for all access. ApologiaStudios .com If you are not with End Abortion now yet and you haven't gone out to save children at the mills go to EndAbortionNow .com

01:05:44

Get signed up. Get free training. Get free resources. We don't want a thing from you. We just want you to go out there and serve.

01:05:50

And please be in prayer for what's happening right now because it's a very, very big moment for the church. That is

01:05:55

Jeremiah Roberts from Coltish. That is Luke the Bear. Peace out. I'm Jeff the